Eastern & Western Values

[chenchow]

As our country is advancing and progressing fast, it seems that our younger generation has caught on many of the negative elements. While I would not say that all negative elements come from West, what many Malaysians have learned from the West are those negative elements.

For those who study in the west, we see a number of good points in the west, that we should learn, like trust on others, encourage others, friendly even to strangers, responsibility to society (little vandalism,...), cleanliness... It may be a sweeping statement, but I think what the younger generations have caught on from the West are not that appropriate...

What do you guys think?

[silverblue]

chenchow, what negative elements from the west do you think youngsters today have adopted? give some examples and we'll have a clearer picture.. thanks! :)

[kijal4]

Cleanliness is something we can emulate. Not just toilet, but maybe on street walk, we need less garbage. Although I have to admit KL is much cleaner now than a few years ago. Also to make river not a dumping ground. Western countries use river for recreational, some have classic river cruise package to view downtown, etc.

Friendliness? Maybe. Although I always think when American say Hi, it doesn't mean anything. It's more of something they used to do. It might as well be no greeting at all. But in KL, I saw, when it come right to it, we can be friendly and helpful. I have yet to see a blind guy being left alone trying to cross a road or trying to get into LRT.

[chenchow]

kijal4,

it is a very positive sign to see that KL is much cleaner now than a few years ago.. can't wait to go back and have a look...

yeah, i agree that the What's up? by the Americans do not mean anything, but if we could genuinely be nice to everyone, especially to those foreign tourists, it would be a tremendous boost to our foreign revenue...

[CrAzyCow]

heheh.. guess everybody also know about the fake greetings.. the "hey wassup" n he/she just walk pass u..

I like the western ppl for being open minded.. hate it when they think they are the greatest being on earth.

For our eastern values, we are too quite.. dun really voice out our opinions. Other than tht, can't think of anything else rite now.

western - open-minded + they seem to love learning, tidak segan bertanya
eastern - think too much of others (culture, religion, what abut the nighbours..bla..bla..bla..) and cukup payah nak bertanya even when tak tau...

hmm...am i right or am i right..hehehe 8)

[wwhong]

yeah i do think americans are kinda "fake" sometime. like my own experience, there was a white guy who asked how are you and of course i answered back but then one minute later he asked back the same question like as if he never saw me before. of course it's always good to be nice to others but not in the fake way.

western culture do have their good values which cannot be denied but they are not perfect also. they do have bad sides too. so, no need to think that westerners are damn good or whatever like some people do.

i personally like their open mindness which eastern culture lacks of.

it's the best if we can incorporate both culture in a nice way.

i just feel sad for those people who look down on their own culture and worship foreign value so much sometimes.

[kijal4]

yeah i do think americans are kinda "fake" sometime. like my own experience, there was a white guy who asked how are you and of course i answered back but then one minute later he asked back the same question like as if he never saw me before. of course it's always good to be nice to others but not in the fake way

The same exact thing happen to a close friend of mine, this time from a white guy in KL, haha! We were at this dinner function. And this white dude greeted my friend, "Hi, I'm Steve" and he left somewhere. A few minutes later he came back and said, "Hi, I'm Steve" - my friend answered, "Yeah, you said that just now"

Geez, how's that for being flaky and plactic/silicone, HAHA

[Thirdshifter]

Yup i have to agree with the fake, how you doing thingy.

Also i have to say it works fantabulously in Malaysia though, good way to meet new people.

it happened to me once. And i was so mad, that when this guy came up to me and wantd to introduce himself, i said, "yep, your name is Matt and you're an Irish." Coz he told me before his name n his origin (he came from ireland n is an irishman) 8O

That shut him up for good. :wink: not that i don't like white ppl, i just don't like ppl who talk just for the sake of talking...what daa... 8)

[royston]

it happened to me once. And i was so mad, that when this guy came up to me and wantd to introduce himself, i said, "yep, your name is Matt and you're an Irish." Coz he told me before his name n his origin (he came from ireland n is an irishman) 8O

That shut him up for good. :wink: not that i don't like white ppl, i just don't like ppl who talk just for the sake of talking...what daa... 8)

Well, i have read through all the replies until here... I suddenly have a question: Why should we bother about the greeting, whether it is fake or sincere?

No doubt, I saw quite a lot of white man or Caucasian and have communication with them too, they like to speak, something have spoken out from their mouth they can easily forgotten, like the examples given above. But why is it so serious or I should say... why should we mind? Different country, different culture. A communication can be successfully completed with all the parties understand what they have talked about, that should be fine.

He/She might say "Hi" to you two or three times, you feel that they are not sincere when they approached you first time, else how can they simply forgotten about what they have said, right? But try to think... will it be any problem for you to answer them the 2nd time? We have our goods and bads, others also same. Try to adopt that so that when you meet the 2nd or 3rd white man, you will not be surprise or have weird feeling in future.

I do not know how others can understand or accept what I am trying to say here, I don't intend to ask you guys accept. I just share a piece of advice only... Same thing happen when someone do something which is totally weird to you, or you may feel that they do it in purpose, kinda fake or something. For me I will just accept what he/she did for me.

You only have your own mind, you do not have other peoples' mind. You are unable to think or assume certain purpose that done by others base on what you are imaging that moment. So why should we make comment or think or assume others behavior of doing things such as speaking, greeting and so on? Just take that with positive thinking. We -- Ourselves... think positive, regardless on how others did that with negative purpose...

Again, I am not sure how much you guys can understand my meaning... of course I know what I am talking about but probably I am not so good in delivering my message to others... :oops:

Thank you.

~ roy ~

[eeyore]

i think this boils down to your personal values. i guess a lot of people are not too happy with other people re-introducing themselves or asking the same questions again, primarily because we don't see that happening back home. we usually ask someone for his/her name and then try to remember it, if we don't we apologize but we make it a point to let the other person know that we've spoken to them before.

at the same time, i agree with roy that it's a lot to do with culture. western culture is fine with this. so i guess we just gotta live with it, and accept it. i mean we all know how superficial these people can be at times.

what would really really anger me is that if i do the same thing to them, and they get upset. now, that's wrong because that only shows that they are egotistical, they're always right and other people are wrong. not that this has ever happened, but if it does, then all hell break loose. :twisted:

[chenchow]

Royston wrote a very good one and i agree with you.

It would not take more than a few seconds for us to reintroduce ourselves. Although we may look at them, and say how come they are so superficial, sometimes, i think when we look at foreigners, we tend to see that most of them look alike... I am not sure whether you guys have such feeling or not, especially if you are new to a certain place.

[CrAzyCow]

It is not a big problem that they have fake greetings. All mentioned above was tht we share a common view that white ppl do give fake greetings n is annoying at least to me. However, i don't care much about it.. i just ignore and play along.

N yes we shud think positive.. Positive in a critical mind set.. in other words, we adapt to the environment but still maintain our own integrity. I am proud that i have a unique culture n i plan to keep it.

[theT]

i rather have ppl greet me superficially than ppl ignoring me. it makes me feel a little bit easy and comfortable. you dont hear it so often in malaysia a stranger just came up to you and say you have a nice hair. and just that.and saying hi to everybody is actually good. good for me at least. and yeah, just go along with it. and say hi to everyone you know too. so u wont be labelled as stuck up foreigner.

ps:i just really like it when ppl say i have a nice hair . thts all. i dont care if i dunno their name or where they from. :D

[__earth]

i agree with crazycow. Just play along. Sooner or later, you'll become his or her friend, superficially or not but still someone that you could talk to.

[Schye]

Basically i dont care if they have greeted me more than once.At least they approach you which means they are trying to be friends.
Just accept ir and i dont think we need to make them embarresed.I did forget sometimes when i have met too many people in a time such as in a party or gethering.People make mistakes and not everyone is always wearing a mask...

[littlebigone]

To me it's all a game of probability. If someone says hi to you more times, there is a higher probability that you'll remember him/her. And if you there's a higher chance of you remembering him/her, then you also have a higher chance of making a new friend in world.

So I guess it's a win win situation. :P

[wwhong]

yup play along, that's what i do. but sometime just feel they are kinda fake that's all.

[qedx]

i don't make friends easily, and the friends i do make are usually because we get thrown into the same situation and have frequent personal contact... other than that i usually can't speak at all with peaple i don't know. God, I even have a hard time ordering stuff at restaurants because i don't speak!

[silverblue]

I don't quite know if this goes under Western values... but I just want to point out something I really look up to in the US : the people's sense of personal hygiene.

Just look at all the bathrooms! Liquid hand soap never runs out and there's always recycled paper towels for users to wipe their hands. And there's always toilet tissue in the WC too. The bathrooms whether public or private are almost always dry and they don't stink. Compare all these to Malaysia toilets... urgh... now I can say that it is a shame on our part that our toilets are so yucky!! :(

[littlebigone]

recycling

[__earth]

yeah recycling. that's a big one. Malaysian on the other hand don't give a damn. it's embarrassing for me to claim to be both a malaysian and a green at the same time.

in fact, this problem comes from another root - conservation.
It's funny how the American practice conservation when they are industrialized country while most Malaysians, a developing nation society don't practice it.

The US has all the resources in the world and they believe in conservation, even the grey. Malaysian sadly, with all the lacking capitals, think resources are infinite. What an irony!

[jiinjoo]

There're a hefty tax associated with having great toilets. :wink: This depends on at what level we want our social contract with the government to be - do we want the gov to internalize all the cost of providing great facilities, using our tax money, or we want to pay for what we use. For example, I've so far paid the US gov enough to buy a car to get clean toilets but also to see iraq being bombed, so I'd say I want to pay less tax, and probably put down that 50 cents everytime I enter the toilet.

On another note, I'd like to ask what kind of behavior is deemed "appropriate"? We always like to sing the diversity song in terms of born-with characteristics, why can't we allow people to have their own definition of being a good person? The "western culture" is actually something that came into being after allowing people to act on their own free will for a couple fo centuries. I see no point deliberating - be it keeping to one's own "culture" or incorporating what one is exposed to.

[Schye]

I think vandalism in Malaysia is one of the main issues too. In Japan, we can see find vending machine everywhere even in the middle of the paddy fields (around my college 8) ). Public phone, toilet are always clean and I have never seen a condemned public telephone in Japan until now.

I wonder when we will have vending machines everywhere which sell stuff from condoms to rice.

[silverblue]

There're a hefty tax associated with having great toilets. :wink: This depends on at what level we want our social contract with the government to be - do we want the gov to internalize all the cost of providing great facilities, using our tax money, or we want to pay for what we use. For example, I've so far paid the US gov enough to buy a car to get clean toilets but also to see iraq being bombed, so I'd say I want to pay less tax, and probably put down that 50 cents everytime I enter the toilet.



Even the 50 cents toilets we pay at home aren't much cleaner than the free public toilets here...

Anyway, I also meant that the bathrooms of private restaurants and houses are very clean too. When I went to bathrooms in houses or restaurants in Malaysia, some didn't even have hand soap or tissue at all. And they weren't very clean and dry. I don't think every single bathroom here in US is maintained by the US government, but I am thinking that maybe there is a policy that all business operators or shop toilets have to meet a certain standard for bathroom cleanliness or sth like that. And it's become a habit that ppl adopt that sense of cleanliness at home too! :)

[jiinjoo]

I was actually very surprised at my first impression that this country (US)waste so much resources on paper and soap everywhere. It is a heavily discussed issue because it waste quite a bit of resources, and some people still produce non-environmentally friendly paper. My dad for example highly oppose that, and he carries his own handkerchief everywhere he goes.

Even the 50 cents toilets we pay at home aren't much cleaner than the free public toilets here...

That's because there're no better alternatives. The lady who's sitting there is not under pressure to compete. :twisted: But then it is totally wrong to argue that cleaning toilets should be "privatised" and made "competitive". Here, it is the building owner that determines the schedule of cleaning, and demand a certain standard to that. The worker, whose salary depends solely on the building owner's whim, will do everything to keep his or her job. I've talked to a number of toilet cleaners in my work place and they seem pretty worried everyday about that.

the bathrooms of private restaurants and houses are very clean too.

Come to my house! :P I got clean toilet...
Private restaurants will give you better toilets if they think that's what makes them earn more money. The average American here values tardiness. The average Malaysian values the quality (or for some, quantity) of food and the price of the food. My mentality after being here for some time have become: I'm tiping you, so you better serve me well and give me a great place to eat, drink and pee, or else :!:

maybe there is a policy that all business operators or shop toilets have to meet a certain standard for bathroom cleanliness or sth like that.

That's the best thing that can happen for you for this case. Policies swaying public habits. Same goes to the way you drive on the street, the way hawkers sell you food etc. (story: I remember s'pore mrt stations drawing yellow lines on the floor forcing people to stand on the sides of the door to let people alighting to come out first. Make sense, but people don't follow. Have to ask a few employees to go down to explain, broadcast over the speakers that if you don't sand at one side you're against the law etc.)

To what extent do the people want clean toilets in general? I see people who often don't care a great deal (ok I frequent the male toilets, maybe the female toilets needs to be cleaner than the male ones....) because of the price they pay. It doesn't have to be government toilets (is there such a thing...? I thought they are built by your pembandaran coucil). When I visit a restaurant and I see a luxurious toilet, fully equiped with soap, paper and a scent of freshener, I know I'm going to pay a little bit more for my meal. If this kind of common sense needs to be eradicated to be replaced by a demand for clean toilets only for free, I'm afraid I'm out of ideas :?



oh btw, the toilets in some of the chinese restaurants around SF aren't very clean too fyi :wink:

[masterof_none]

Maybe this is the time for Toilet Revolution.

Now we can see the difference between the so-called 'developed nation' and 'developing/less-developed/not-developed-at-all' nations.

In developed nations, the societies are more mature when it comes to these kind of stuff, such as public facilities,etc. If we want to be a more developed nation, it must come from the heart of every person in the nation. Think like a developed nation people. They pay lots of money to the government to make sure that the government take care of these basic stuff. Like Jiin Joo said, the issue here is whether you want to pay the govt. or not. (and whether you want to make sure that the govt take care of the bathrooms).

Americans pay high amount of taxes, some go to states, some go to federal. and the governement use the money to create an excellent bathroom, and the people, having paid for the service, are wise enough to keep it clean.

That's why, there's no such thing as 'paid' bathrooms here. Because everything was being paid by the taxpayers. In Malaysia, we usually have to pay, around $0.20 per-entry (such as my favorite bathrooms in Klang bus station). If we say, in average, around 30 ppl enter the bathrooms/day, the bathroom owner earn only $6.00 (plz correct my math if I'm wrong). with this kind of money, we can't really expect how are they going to have a huge package of toilet papers , soaps , and lots of janitors to maintain the bathrooms.

Toilet Revolution come at a cost. But if we refuse to pay,we can expect a dirty , vandalized toilet.

[kijal4]

It's a solemn morning of January 24th, 2313. The glass wall of the world's tallest Genting Triple Towers are gleaming under the scrutiny of the morning sun.

Traffic are noisy. The big news is abuzz around town. The machines have taken over the public toilets of KL. "Hand over your poo and a new loo awaits you. We demand it," a praying mantis-like robot tells the Malaysia Parliament just before self-destructing and wiping out the whole of Jalan Duta with a bio-mass blast.

A new era has begins. An era when machine controls the toilets and we KLites live in a world call The Poo-Poo-Trix.

The Toilet Revolution has just begun!