Going back to work?

[digimushu]

Guys,

Those of you at DC for the PM reception heard his speech about going back to work...

http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Sunday/Frontpage/20040725080052/Article/indexb_html

Any opinions?

[cquayhl]

Good advertising, but 'we eagerly await further developments'?

cqhl.

I think the PM's call for Malaysians to return home immediately after their studies is short-sighted. Malaysia, as a nation, will do better in the long-term if Malaysians return home only after gaining years of experience and plenty of wealth overseas.

On an individual level, it is a tough sell to get Malaysians (no matter how much they love their country and their families back home) to give up jobs paying hundred of thousands of dollars a year (and it's in US dollars) to return home only to earn a much lesser salary and less opportunity to excel.

It's no wonder JPA are losing their overseas scholars. Plus the JPA bond, I heard, is as low as RM 100,000. Instead of forcing the scholars to work in the civil service (and earning minimum-wage salary if one lives in Klang Valley), JPA should allow their scholars to gain experience (e.g. pursue a doctorate or work in industry) for a few years before requiring them to return home.

[windy_city]

It's no wonder JPA are losing their overseas scholars. Plus the JPA bond, I heard, is as low as RM 100,000.

it is no longer RM100,000. They changed the policy, now if you break the bond, pay back 100% on what they spent on you.

[cquayhl]

Shien Jin (Prince),

Broadly, I would agree with your concerns, but I think it's unclear at this point what the government intends to do. Quite possibly they are not even sure what they intend to do and some input from people 'on the ground' in R and D might be valuable. Maybe you should write a letter to NST? :-) Or maybe we should take a leaf out of Jiin Joo's book and write a collective letter summarising this thread.

I think it is very unclear how Malaysia should proceed from here. Some of my thoughts (speaking from my limited physics point of view):

a) Yes, people should gain experience, but is he talking to doctoral students? Or undergraduates? In principle, a PhD, after a 2-3 year postdoc in a decent lab, ought to be able to set up their own lab.

b) I'm not sure if studies have been done on this, but I would tend to think that the longer you stay overseas, the less likely it is that you will go home. Some of the reasons are practical: once you've established your lab, which takes 2-5 years, it's difficult to uproot millions of dollars of equipment, and a dozen students and postdocs and resettle them in Malaysia, where they didn't sign up to do their degrees/fellowships. Moving from Berkeley to Cornell is one thing, from Berkeley to MU, not so easy.

I think that however you cut it, the first generation of well-qualified scientists to go home will have to make sacrifices.

c) I should think that salaries will be one of their smaller worries. Yes, lecturers in Malaysia get paid 1/3 of the grad student stipend here, but what will prove to be a greater problem in the beginning is simply lack of critical mass. (Leading to, as you say, lack of opportunity to excel.)

In (a), I said 'in principle' and that was what I thought when I was an undergrad. I think now that (a) is not really true. Looking at the way 'research' works around me, a lot of individual successes are due to being able to bounce things off other people: labmates, fellow professors, people you knew in college/grad school, people you meet at conferences. I'm sure you've experienced this too. Also, in my field (mesoscopic tranport or, when we want people to give us money, 'nanotechnology') often experiments come from the efforts of more than one research group in more than one area. In one very typical scenario, a Chemistry or EE group grows the material, a Materials group does an intermediate step and finally the (Applied) Physics people make the measurement. Take any of the top researchers here, put them in Malaysia, give them the same amount of money and equipment and I'm almost certain they will not do as well. (Cornell has all their Condensed Matter people in the same basement, apparently because people on the same floor tend to collaborate more than people on different floors. Different continents, forget it... :-P )

d) This brings me to my next point: I'm not sure how people who do go home are going to survive without good graduate students. I think in Europe they are much more reliant on technicians, but even those have to come from somewhere. Also, it seems there is less of a 'one prof per lab' sort of structure. We would do well to study different models for doing research.

e) We would also do well to study countries like Taiwan and Japan, which are coming up in R and D to see where they started, how they did it. Any ReCommers in those countries care to comment?

f) There are some curious hints in the article about encouraging overseas collaborations. Singapore has tried to do something of the sort. Their efforts are generally scoffed at by the Singaporean grad students I know. ('We just give them a lot of money and ten kids come over and take useless classes for a quarter...what for?!') But it would be good to take a look at those also.

g) Speaking of critical mass, we can't do everything at once. It's a good question which areas should be concentrated on first. Again, it would be good to look at other developing/newly developed countries.

In the end, if the government is serious about this, we have to start somewhere and a lot of people will have to make sacrifices. I think that there are people out there who will do it, even if they aren't the majority, but they'll have to be convinced that there is a long-term committment to this and that their sacrifices will be worth it. And since I have no faith in bureaucrats to think about technical issues, I'll say again that whether or not we go home, we can and should help by giving input so that the efforts of those who go home may not be in vain.

Oh yes, JPA raised their bond recently to 100% of the amount they spend on you (which is still less than our neighbour across the causeway's bonds), a move I greeted with much irrational enthusiasm. :-)

Of course, there is always the question of 'Does Malaysia really need R and D?', especially with the budget deficit, but I'll quietly ignore that one for now. :-P

Cheers,
Charis.

[el_empty]

but that's the physical factor, the hardware and facilities and logistics. if the government wants its upper-tier, phd wielding, critical thinking, creative workers to leave all the good work they do overseas, they'll have to do more than to entice them with monetary perks and tax rebates and "world class facilities." these workers are not that moneyfaced.

what is the government doing about free speech? about radical political movements? control on media? racial polarization? racial policies? public services? public transparency? suppression of political activity at universities? spending on education? independent judiciary? legislative and executive assemblies? the political impartiality of the parliament speaker?

stuff like that. the reason the workers are smart in the first place is that their mental capacity transcends beyond the field they dedicate their lives to, to encompass also the *quality* of life, not just the quantified superficiality the government is so overzealous in dispensing out. it's not just about the work they do, but it's also the issues that surround them, and they very well want to voice their opinions, especially if it involves their work.

and i hope it's not just r&d and scientists they're hoping to lure back. what about the historians, the linguists, the artisans and artists, the activists, the philosophers, the lawyers, etc.

[digimushu]

hahaha

http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2004/7/25/latest/18167DrMMala&sec=latest

So we are 'property' now eh?

[el_empty]

hahaha

http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2004/7/25/latest/18167DrMMala&sec=latest

So we are 'property' now eh?

another booboo. so much for trying to attract world class malaysians with world class rationale.

[topdog]

interesting that some of you guys (i.e. unsponsored, unbonded scholars) are actually contemplating going home...may i ask why?

here's a letter on emigration that kinda mirrors my thoughts...
http://www.malaysiakini.com/letters/28647

[__earth]

Refering to the letters from Mkini that concern migration.

I read with interest many of the recent letters to malaysiakini concerning emigration.

However, if you will permit me to make a comment. The primary motive for emigration is not always pure economics. More generally, emigration happens because of a desire to better one's lot, or to achieve one's purpose in life whatever that may be.

Naturally, economic motives are a part of the picture but one also needs to consider the non-monetary reasons that people have for moving.

Still economics. Though most of the letters in Mkini are correct when all of it try to state that there is more to migration, migration is still economics in nature.

People always misunderstood economics as something monetery. They even used the term economics to describe money when in fact, economics is the science of making decision, not of making money.

This is a technical thing and a fact and not subject to debate whether migration is economics or not. migration is about economics.

a) Yes, people should gain experience, but is he talking to doctoral students? Or undergraduates? In principle, a PhD, after a 2-3 year postdoc in a decent lab, ought to be able to set up their own lab.

In (a), I said 'in principle' and that was what I thought when I was an undergrad. I think now that (a) is not really true. Looking at the way 'research' works around me, a lot of individual successes are due to being able to bounce things off other people: labmates, fellow professors, people you knew in college/grad school, people you meet at conferences. I'm sure you've experienced this too. Also, in my field (mesoscopic tranport or, when we want people to give us money, 'nanotechnology') often experiments come from the efforts of more than one research group in more than one area. In one very typical scenario, a Chemistry or EE group grows the material, a Materials group does an intermediate step and finally the (Applied) Physics people make the measurement. Take any of the top researchers here, put them in Malaysia, give them the same amount of money and equipment and I'm almost certain they will not do as well. (Cornell has all their Condensed Matter people in the same basement, apparently because people on the same floor tend to collaborate more than people on different floors. Different continents, forget it... :-P )


Charis, you highlighted a good point in that excellent research often comes about with a team, not an individual, of brilliant researchers working together and sharing ideas. In this respect, only a influential, famous and experienced professor would be able to recruit colleagues and grad students, to come to their Malaysian labs, if they choose to return to Malaysia.

Actually, China is an excellent example of this. Many famous and brilliant Chinese professors in the US, after spending many decades overseas, are returning home (to world-class Chinese universities like Tsinghua). Most seem to feel that there is an opportunity to contribute to the rapid development of China, and their efforts are appreciated by the Chinese government.

[ElansarGelmir]

and their efforts are appreciated by the Chinese government.

Yeah... Remember, many, or perhaps, most) of the ppl studying/working overseas are there in the first place because the govt fail to appreciate and acknowledge their skill and the quality in them. Scholarships are given rather based on other (sensitive) factors instead of those who really qualified. And these smart but not given the opportunity young lads ended up being pulled to our neighboring countries or sent overseas by their parents with a hope that they can earn a better living there and their kids can grow up in a much better and justful environment with more vast opportunites open up for them. So can't blame them if they dun intend to return to their so called "motherland" after what they have experienced before in Malaysia.

[cquayhl]

interesting that some of you guys (i.e. unsponsored, unbonded scholars) are actually contemplating going home...may i ask why?

Blind patriotism, not quite to the point of dulce et decorum est pro patria mori (it's sweet and seeming to die for one's country), but still a desire to do something for the country that gave us birth, despite all the other things it didn't and perhaps couldn't give us. Also, it's home. *shrug* Even though this is much over-quoted, 'Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country.' (JFK)

Of course, it's highly likely some of us have been out of the country for so long that we are unrealistically optimistic.

Anybody else?

(No, I don't really know Latin. Just being my snooty self. :-) )

Cheers,
Charis.

[abdullah]

Blind patriotism, not quite to the point of dulce et decorum est pro patria mori (it's sweet and seeming to die for one's country), but still a desire to do something for the country that gave us birth, despite all the other things it didn't and perhaps couldn't give us. Also, it's home.

Whereas making sacrifices pro patria nostra (for our fatherland) is a sentimentalism fraught with nebulousness, serving one's parents when they need you is a different matter.

Recall the hands that cared for you when you were young, the care and tenderness of which most of us easily forget.

My parents are choosing to stay put in Malaysia. Above and beyond any blandishment that the government can offer; in fact, any award or prize that any scientific organization can bestow; that's the reason why I plan to return to them.

Of course, it's highly likely some of us have been out of the country for so long that we are unrealistically optimistic.

Be both: realistic and optimistic.

Although it didn't seem so at that time, I was given the Godsend of over seven months in various parts of the Peninsular in 2002-2003, discovering and rediscovering people and places I never knew existed.

Keep your feet solidly grounded and then let Providence surprise you.

[phantom]

well,it depends on you.malaysia to some extend failed to provide what i need,personally.monetary thing being the 1st thing.personal satisfaction being the 2nd thing.

imagine earning RM 6000 of average salary each month for 30 years in malaysia,that would only accumulate to reach RM 2.4 million or else around USD 500 000 (after tax).30 years of salary and that equal to the starting salary of Matt Damon?that for me is hmmm,unacceptable.

i heard the higest salary paid for a prof at UM is around RM 6500.but then again,most of my classmates' dads were rich enough to give their sons cozy lifestyles.so i dont think RM 6500 is too little in m'sia.

but then again, i would absolutely wanna work in usa/uk/middle east where i will be paid better.but eventually i will absolutely pack my stuff and return to malaysia.i wanna my kids to grow up in m'sia.

so,if you think you can survive on foreign land and get a decent job,a decent apartment,and settle all your bills,and save some for future use AND EARN EXPERIENCE AT THE SAME TIME,i guess working in a foreign land is never wrong.plus,if you dont mind marrying and bringing up ur kids in foreign land,then malaysian sounds decent to be your next vacation spot.

but when you are sponsored,given RM 500 000 to study overseas,i believe you should either pay back all of them or work with gov,then just runaway without a trace.

what the gov meant is,we need great ppl to be inside our work force,NOT THOSE WHO THINK THEY ARE GREAT BUT HMM,AT THE END OF THE DAY,fail to meet the need-to-do list..whether u r a PhD student from Oxford or other "superior" unis,or even if u belong to the 2nd tier unis,it shouldn't matter.i am pretty sure there are malaysians who are from no-so-good uni but when put in Oxford can compete and be ranked top of da class.

if you are dedicated to your job,then you are needed in malaysia.

we need great doctors who performed at foreign land then just another doctor working in a foreign land.we need excellent prof receiving awards at international academias,then just a prof who works overseas.we need great ppl with superb management skills then another MBA holder working at London.

[digimushu]

Why do we , the unbonded scholars chose to go back? i guess it because we still feel there is hope for Malaysia. Besides, where else are we to go? back to mainland China? I dont think so. Malaysia still have some hope left in it. I will go back eventually but not so soon. The current research trend back home sucks. Professors who never publish anything and dont do much research will never grow. They will be just like dinosaurs...extinct. Even as grad students, some of us publish at least 2 papers/year but some professors in Malaysia barely publish 2 papers their whole lives.

and you may ask why not? Well, the current research in M'sia just does not interest me. In the US, we get to learn about technologies that are wayyyy past M'sia's research capabilities(and are currently doing work on it(Woohoo!)). Thus, doing research in Msia is just mind numbing and a waste of my time now. I will return, when i feel that M'sia has changed enough. We are not adventurous enough to try new technology. All we do for research is take a known theory and try to apply it somewhere, short of reinventing the wheel.

I have watch my dad work for RTM for 25 years as an engineer. 25 years of waking up and doing the same thing over and over again. I have no interest in doing that. Call me an armchair critic, but right now i'm just sceptical of how research funding will come to ideas that are non-orthodox.

As they say in the movie 'Kane and Abel'

"Fortuna Favi Fortus"

[el_empty]

While making sacrifices pro patria nostra (for our fatherland) is a sentimentalism fraught with much nebulousness, serving one's parents when they need you is a different matter.

Recall the hands that cared for you when you were young, the care and tenderness of which most of us easily forget.

did you refer to our literal parents, or the paternal care bestowed by the country "fatherland?" if the latter, then i'm going to have to disagree with you. my country has done nothing to put me where i am today. instead, foreigners gave me the opportunities that i will never qualify for in my own country because of skin and sentiment. and i am ashamed of this. that the ones our government despise are the ones who look beyond this xenophobic politicking, and decided to try me out. backhome me and my peers are just tokens for public appeasement.

i love my country. and i go great lengths to defend her against unreasonable critics. but at the same time i feel unwanted and unappreciated there. in my fatherland, i am a second class citizen. i have second class rights. i have second class freedom. forget salary and monetary kickbacks. i become a tailgate in whatever race i make, no matter how hard i try.

[Thirdshifter]

i love my country. and i go great lengths to defend her against unreasonable critics. but at the same time i feel unwanted and unappreciated there. in my fatherland, i am a second class citizen. i have second class rights. i have second class freedom. forget salary and monetary kickbacks. i become a tailgate in whatever race i make, no matter how hard i try.

There's still hope! Lets remeber that Malaysia is not owned by the Malays/Bumi. There's more and more Malays who are starting to realize this everyday. I truly hope more non-bumi Malaysia would start to brinig the issue of this special right for Bumi to the table. It should be questioned.

Its embrassing that Malaysia even has a Sedition Act which could get you in jail for 3 years for just questioning the privileges Malays get.

Ahh.. who else is pissed off?

[phantom]

digimushu wrote:
I will return, when i feel that M'sia has changed enough. We are not adventurous enough to try new technology. All we do for research is take a known theory and try to apply it somewhere, short of reinventing the wheel.


who gonna changed malaysia?the current local grads in m'sia or some US grads who are obliged to return back to malaysia?do you hope malaysian will change themselves just like that?if all of us keep wishing malaysia will change to fit our defination,then who will start to ignite these changes?

i get ur point.but then,it will be mere wishes if all of us keep wishing without steps taken towards achieving those wishes.


I have watch my dad work for RTM for 25 years as an engineer. 25 years of waking up and doing the same thing over and over again. I have no interest in doing that. Call me an armchair critic, but right now i'm just sceptical of how research funding will come to ideas that are non-orthodox.


well,i hate 9-5 thing too.it is dull.imagine being born,being a kid,enter school,go to uni,get a degree,find a job,marry,have kids,be old,watch ur kids marry,and die.ain't that too dull?

i believe in this dictum," if you love your work,you are not working at all".

there are funding in malaysia if you care to look.i remember when i was in DC DR. Thiaga did mention about funding towards palm oil research.i guess,if you care too look,you may find one.

we can't hope malaysia to be usa.we are different in every sense.come to think about it,a nation like usa with so much of the world's wealth congested here can pour their money to the R and D arena.plus,america has many unis and some as old as 200 years.even UM is not 40 years old.so given all that,it will take time to see malaysia that fit your defination as well as mine.

[Lancelot]

Why don't we give our prime minister some time. Meanwhile, we can pay full attention to observe what has been done and what is going on.

[topdog]

wah all you jpa scholars damn selamba only hor talk about working overseas after graduation. not scared that your sponsors will hunt you down ah? they say now have to pay the FULL COST you know (no installment somemore).

frankly though, who in their right mind would want to return to work in malaysia immediately after graduation? for electrical engineers, i know of only 2 firms with any significant r&d ops in msia - motorola and intel (in fact, i think intel's is still being set up). other than that, electrical engineer = high class technician. and the pay really reflects that fact too.

and that is the private sector. what if jpa seriously bonds you to your contract? everybody knows it's probably highly unlikely since there are roughly a thousand overseas jpa-scholars graduating every year, but you never know do you? what jobs, if any, do you think they have for you? it's actually quite a frightening thought isn't it? or do you consider this possibility too remote to give much thought to?

[digimushu]

who gonna changed malaysia?the current local grads in m'sia or some US grads who are obliged to return back to malaysia?do you hope malaysian will change themselves just like that?if all of us keep wishing malaysia will change to fit our defination,then who will start to ignite these changes?

i get ur point.but then,it will be mere wishes if all of us keep wishing without steps taken towards achieving those wishes.




I am not talking about administration/politics..yet. Just the attitude toward research. Think about it, how about the research for generating palm diesel? Where has that gone? unlike japanese/korean people, Malaysians are very resistive towards new tech, unless their lives depend on it. I'm waiting for M'sia's attitude towards new technology to change.




there are funding in malaysia if you care to look.i remember when i was in DC DR. Thiaga did mention about funding towards palm oil research.i guess,if you care too look,you may find one.



As i say, not in the area i'm interested in...Think about this, some of us here work with shape memory alloys, magnetorheological fluids and supercavitation technology. Stuff that you will never find being used or having use in M'sia. Plus, funding from M'sia is laughable as far as the automotive technology is concerned. Currently, my research makes use of a 7-post rig, which is very important for racing applications research. You will never find such rigs in M'sia, not in a university anyways. Proton has taken the applaudable first step of buying Lotus, lets see if they actually play their cards right.


we can't hope malaysia to be usa.we are different in every sense.come to think about it,a nation like usa with so much of the world's wealth congested here can pour their money to the R and D arena.plus,america has many unis and some as old as 200 years.even UM is not 40 years old.so given all that,it will take time to see malaysia that fit your defination as well as mine.



Agreed! then why don't we go some place else and learn more first? learning is like an anthill, the deeper you dig, the more tunnels you find. I don't hope for it to be like USA. I just hope that in our country, people will have, as our PM wants, first world mentality, especially towards research. No use having first class equipment if the research mentality is of a third world mentality.

:)

[cquayhl]

Charis, you highlighted a good point in that excellent research often comes about with a team, not an individual, of brilliant researchers working together and sharing ideas. In this respect, only a influential, famous and experienced professor would be able to recruit colleagues and grad students, to come to their Malaysian labs, if they choose to return to Malaysia.

This is a good point. So does this mean that 'this is not our time' to go back, that the government should instead concentrate on recruiting Malaysians who are already established here or elsewhere as you mention below?

I always like to say...if we bring back all our people who are profs at Harvard, Stanford, Yale, Berkeley etc., we'll have enough people to form our own Harvard. And digimushu, I think in those cases there'll be no issue of these people not having drunk deeply at the fountain of 'research culture'. :-)

Actually, China is an excellent example of this. Many famous and brilliant Chinese professors in the US, after spending many decades overseas, are returning home (to world-class Chinese universities like Tsinghua). Most seem to feel that there is an opportunity to contribute to the rapid development of China, and their efforts are appreciated by the Chinese government.

I wonder how this is going? How did the government induce the profs to go back? How did the profs deal with the poor research culture? Have they managed to change it? Or have they become completely unproductive since returning to China? China is another country we should study. Does anybody have data?

Yeah... Remember, many, or perhaps, most) of the ppl studying/working overseas are there in the first place because the govt fail to appreciate and acknowledge their skill and the quality in them.

This is true. One thing I've noticed about Malaysians abroad (including, often, myself) is our tendency to harp on 'injustices' that have been done to us ten, twenty, forty years ago. We all have our list. Things are changing, things always change, and I hope for the better. We can either sit on the sidelines and criticise and condemn as usual. Or we can ask 'What can we do to help?' Let's give the country a second chance? We must criticise, but we must do so constructively. A wise person once said to me, 'Never criticise someone without offering an alternative that addresses things from the other person's point of view.'

[digimushu]

I always like to say...if we bring back all our people who are profs at Harvard, Stanford, Yale, Berkeley etc., we'll have enough people to form our own Harvard. And digimushu, I think in those cases there'll be no issue of these people not having drunk deeply at the fountain of 'research culture'.


Yes, but are we offering enough 'intellectual challenge' for them to come back? I'm sure a lot of them have first class talents but we do we have first class challenges and first class equipment waiting for them? or is coming back another dead end to a good idea?

Plus, the politics of academia back home, i heard are very turbulent...r u sure they will come back with all the experiences just to feel the sting of dealing with a bunch of dinosaurs?

just some thoughts that crossed my mind when i went back last time
:)

Going back and feeling helpless is different than going back and having the power to change. IF (and that is a very very big if) i have the power to decide HOW I teach, HOW I do my research, HOW I set up my own lab, that is when, i might consider going back. Till then...I will continue enriching myself and learning.

Not saying that i'm one of the smart ones...but u guys knowlar

[Lancelot]

I've heard there are some so called JPA Scholarship which is actually paid by Japanese government. The JPA just suddenly step in and ask the the candidate to sign an agreement to work for the government while all money is paid by the Japanese governement. Good and smart practice.
Next time, I'll just wait outside the Japanese embassy and ask those who has got scholarship from Japanese government pay me 10% tax because I'm from the Tax Department.

[dinna_g]

Going back and feeling helpless is different than going back and having the power to change. IF (and that is a very very big if) i have the power to decide HOW I teach, HOW I do my research, HOW I set up my own lab, that is when, i might consider going back. Till then...I will continue enriching myself and learning.

Very good point digimushu. I thought about that a thousand times... When I go home, it's really depressing if I know what I wanna do, what I can do but there's nothing I can do to change the surroundings. It's like there's no point of going home afterall.. There's so much things to consider being an individual. Like charis has pointed out, if we can bring an entire lab to malaysia, it's a different story.. ;)

That's the reason why I don't want to go to grad school. I rather not know anything then spending years abroad and come home helpless. Afterall I'm bonded to JPA.... So I'm coming home to serve the government.

p/s: JPA scholars.. let's go home lah! Let's appreciate the gov's contribution to our education.

That's the reason why I don't want to go to grad school. I rather not know anything then spending years abroad and come home helpless. Afterall I'm bonded to JPA.... So I'm coming home to serve the government.

p/s: JPA scholars.. let's go home lah! Let's appreciate the gov's contribution to our education.

Not true, the more knowledgeable you are, the more you will be able to find ways to bring yourself out of helplessness. And appreciating the gov's contribution should mean doing something that would benefit Malaysia in the long-term. If you believe that staying overseas in the short-term would benefit your country in the long-term, then that should be viewed as a patriotic act.

[digimushu]

Actually, we do have our own knock off of MIT in M'sia.

http://www.must.com.my/

I have a friend there who is doing his Masters degree in Material Science. Although most of the research is in the computers area, there seem to be a lot of colloboration between the different groups.

However.. it is still very new and we shall see how it fares in the near future. Have yet to been there to take a peek. I might sneak inside to have a look when I go back for vacation the next time tho.

[abdullah]

While making sacrifices pro patria nostra (for our fatherland) is a sentimentalism fraught with much nebulousness, serving one's parents when they need you is a different matter.

did you refer to our literal parents, or the paternal care bestowed by the country "fatherland?" if the latter, then i'm going to have to disagree with you.

I meant one's parents, those who cared for you and raised you when you were helplessly vulnerable.

My bad for couching my thoughts in language so convoluted, the gist of them was lost.

[cmhang]

Hmm... have this ever come to your minds?

:?: If Malaysia is so concerned of bringing overseas Malaysian students back, why don't they "retain" Malaysians in the first place?

Especially for Medic students. A lot of students with good results that I know, did not get an offer in local universities. Instead of medic, they were offered other courses which they have no intentions to study. So eventually, they chose to study overseas. Once abroad, most of them have no plans of coming back to Malaysia. It would be a different story if they were to complete their studies right here in Malaysia.

Any comments?

[Steppe]

I come across this.... please read on

http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Thursday/Letters/20040729090136/Article/indexb_html

So, over qualified local personnel even has problems, what more to say from overseas eh?

[The_Observer]

Wahahaha...I thought only the Singaporeans had the "over-glorifying ang-mo" syndrome....

Ethical debate for myself....
In which capacity am I more useful to Malaysia?
Specialist or GP?
Both are equally needed and important...
I'd better start planning the future now...

[chenchow]

It is very nice to see everyone discussing on this very important issue. On the very first note, I can see that we all do care about our country - Malaysia, and it is just how we are able to contribute our talents, abilities, to our country.

What can we do to help our country? What can't we do to help our country? Where is the limitation? Are we trying our best to do what we want to achieve? Is there complete zero chances in Malaysia? Do we get the chance to initiate something new and get it right back home?

May be in terms of research, what we could do is that those of you who have research experience, could share that experience in ReCom and try to build an awareness of research among ReComers. That could be a good first step to start. There are many in ReCom, especially those who are just about to leave the country, who has never tried doing research before. To them, and perhaps including me, has no idea about what is research, besides knowing that it is part of R&D. May be you could help build an awareness, and in the long run, that could start a cycle of having more and more Malaysians who are doing research...

Another thing would be to bring all those Malaysians whom you guys know who are interested to research, to discuss together, perhaps in ReCom, and try to find ways you guys can collaborate on your research and as the pool of people getting larger, it would be beneficial...

Personally, I believe in doing what we can do. For me, I have decided and committed to dedicate my entire life to develop Malaysia. I feel that in whatever capacity we are working, even when we are sent to rural area, there is definitely possibility of us contributing and helping develop. If we are given small responsibility, we can make a huge difference in that job and to those people affected. So, it is still the same...

Lets work hard together to bring Malaysia into the next chapter...

[The_Observer]

JFK had his famous quote:

"Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country"

The funny thing abt Malaysia is that the latter part is easier to achieve compared to the former....

[digimushu]

FYI....

http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Thursday/Frontpage/20041118080704/Article/indexb_html

Any thoughts?

[jiinjoo]

Same story - how many times have this made the papers over the last decade or so?

[digimushu]

Ah...true...

When is it going to be 'real' you mean? its amazing that no matter what threats JPA make to the students..they still run away

[jiinjoo]

Right - and sometimes it makes sense to run away. All you can do is to introduce constraints that make them not want to run away, or put more weight on the other side of the fence.

I'd like to see some of those self-proclaim "over-qualified" people workin for me next time and see if they are realy over-qualified for the job.

[topdog]

i think it's understandable and even acceptable for sponsored students not to return (at least for a few years) if they manage to secure jobs that make full use of their qualifications, as these jobs may be scarce/non-existent in malaysia. (of course, that ignores the possibility that they may never want to leave their job once their entrenched...)

however if they are merely doing jobs that are way below their qualifications (like clerical work, or waitressing in chinatown...), they should stop wasting their time and go home, higher pay notwithstanding.

but doctors, that's another story. they must go home and serve, no ifs and buts about it.

[chenchow]

I think both parties should buck up... the students and the government .

I would think that JPA scholars in particular should have their heads levelled down. We should be willing to start working from the grassroots. While a number claimed that they are over-qualified, I frankly think that if this is really the case, they could definitely do many things outside of their job, for many different causes, be it for charity or otherwise.

In terms of JPA, I would say that there should be greater planning in the utilization of the students who have graduated. Perhaps a dialogue session between JPA and the students would be worthwhile.

I would say that students need to have their mentality changed. Many students look at the $, as well as the future prospects abroad, but I would say that remember that the public are paying for our studies. I, for one, would definitely go back and I would strongly urge others to do so!

[digimushu]

On a side note...

http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Thursday/National/20041118090110/Article/indexb_html


...
Between 2001 and October this year, the Government allocated RM619.5 million towards the revolving National Skills Development Fund.

Of this, RM562.65 million was given out as loans to 121,852 applicants for skills courses at government, semi-government and private institutions accredited by the National Vocational Training Council.

Although the majority of them completed the courses and are now employed, the ministry has only managed to collect RM8.35 million in loan repayments. "This is a revolving fund," said Human Resources Minister Datuk Dr Fong Chan Onn. "If people don't repay their loans, others cannot benefit from the fund." Because thousands of applicants are waiting for loans to pursue such courses, Fong said a formal body, to be approved by the Cabinet, would track down the defaulters.
...


As far as JPA overseas scholars are concerned, i can understand why they do not want to go back immediately. However, I don't think the people who are mentioned in the article above are doing the 'right' thing at all.