Muslim troublemaker

[Thirdshifter]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3926461.stm

Ah, but this time, all the troubles are internal. One progressive lady who decided to speak out!

Indian Muslim Asra Nomani has found herself on the frontline of a battle for women's rights in Islam in the United States.
She entered the local mosque through the front door and dared to pray alongside men, an act that has triggered heated discussions among America's Muslim community.

[kucingbiru]

They argue that women should only be allowed to enter a mosque through the back door, pray from the balcony and quietly go home.

i'm not sure whether this is true, or they exaggerate things, because that's dont happen to the places where i've been so far. but one thing for sure, the places for prayer for women and men are saperated in a mosque (except for masjidil haram i think). but it's not like women should only pray at the balcony.

[kucingbiru]

check this out
http://www.al-fatiha.net/DCbladearticle.html

[Thirdshifter]

kucing biru,

Gay is totally against Islam. There any many verses in the Quran that had explained clearly about the stand of Islam and homosexuality.

Also it is not related to the topic at all.

This is more about Womens right in Islam.

Since this happened in USA my advice for the Lady is, built a new bigger mosque few miles from the one that she's having problem with.

[kucingbiru]

i know. isn't he a spoiler/troublemaker too. :P

[Thirdshifter]

i know. isn't he a spoiler/troublemaker too. :P

Actually he isn't. Never in the Quran mentioned that a Women cannot pray alongside Mens. They do it in Masjidil Haram why not do it in all mosques?

[kucingbiru]

no i was talking about that guy. nvm, let's focus on this woman.

[tinny]

the purpose of separating the men from the women is to:
-avoid fitnah
-sexual harassment(??)
-avoid your wuduk from 'batal' when a man touches a woman who is legible to be married or vice versa.

i think that's it. also, if I'm not mistaken, women are better to do their prayers at home(sunat).

[kucingbiru]

the purpose of separating the men from the women is to:
-avoid fitnah
-sexual harassment(??)
-avoid your wuduk from 'batal' when a man touches a woman who is legible to be married or vice versa.

i think that's it. also, if I'm not mistaken, women are better to do their prayers at home(sunat).

the question is, is it against the religion for women to pray with men, in the same 'saf'.

[Thirdshifter]

the purpose of separating the men from the women is to:
-avoid fitnah
-sexual harassment(??)
-avoid your wuduk from 'batal' when a man touches a woman who is legible to be married or vice versa.

i think that's it. also, if I'm not mistaken, women are better to do their prayers at home(sunat).

the question is, is it against the religion for women to pray with men, in the same 'saf'.

I don't think its against the religion. They do it during pilgrimage.

[phantom]

isn't that depends to the school that you belong too?

school=mazhab

[kucingbiru]

isn't that depends to the school that you belong too?

school=mazhab

i think so, because if i'm not mistaken, when u go pray at masjidil haram, you follow a certain mazhab.

so if that's true, i think that woman has to respect the mazhab being practiced at that mosque. just my opinion.

[ElansarGelmir]

Since this happened in USA my advice for the Lady is, built a new bigger mosque few miles from the one that she's having problem with.

Didn't her father help build the mosque that kicked her out?

[noneedname]

--------




There are push and pull factors involved. An emigrant is both trying to escape something and advance towards another thing at the same time. For instance, a scientist who cannot flourish in his own country will want to go somewhere where his expertise is appreciated. Perhaps he finds the anti-intellectualism in his milieu too stifling (unfortunately, this is very true in Malaysia), or the government of the day too partial when it comes to resource allocation.

You see, the major problem with a not insignificant number of Malaysians is that there is a lot of false pride around. This is a vestige of Mahathirianism. Small achievements are overblown so as to build up national pride. It's Malaysia Boleh this and Malaysia Boleh that.

Anyway, I say cheer the emigrants on. Let people do what they want with their lives - they should not be beholden to the country. Do not blame their lack of patriotism for not staying - patriotism is poor persuasion.




----------

[el_empty]

what on earth does this have anything to do with the topic?

-------



There are push and pull factors involved. An emigrant is both trying to escape something and advance towards another thing at the same time. For instance, a scientist who cannot flourish in his own country will want to go somewhere where his expertise is appreciated. Perhaps he finds the anti-intellectualism in his milieu too stifling (unfortunately, this is very true in Malaysia), or the government of the day too partial when it comes to resource allocation.

You see, the major problem with a not insignificant number of Malaysians is that there is a lot of false pride around. This is a vestige of Mahathirianism. Small achievements are overblown so as to build up national pride. It's Malaysia Boleh this and Malaysia Boleh that.

Anyway, I say cheer the emigrants on. Let people do what they want with their lives - they should not be beholden to the country. Do not blame their lack of patriotism for not staying - patriotism is poor persuasion.








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[the-model-racist-nation]

Mosques are mushrooming all over the place, even in non-malay majority areas - disturbing the peace of the neighbourhood by blasting their speaker out loud - even when people are trying to sleep!

We are all allowed to be grateful?

Some people just want their beliefs to dominate over others.

The 1969 riot is because malays are jealous and barbaric! Just like thieves and murderers! Nothing to do with reason and justice.

You malays can become bloodsuckers and parasites, sucking on income tax from Chinese. Become lazy and stupid and never grow up! Never learn how to work hard!

It's time politicians, especially from MCA, try not to pull wool over our eyes.

Malaysia is heaven on earth if compare with Afghanistan, Iraq or Sudan. I think what trying to say is that, Malaysia is so low in the level of social liberties enjoyed, that we are only slightly better than a country with a totally autocratic regime.

However the roads in the city center are not even paved!!!

So having old vehicles spewing pollutants in the air, filthy toilets, and chaotic traffic woes is unexpected.

If the only way you can look is down, the only way you can go is down.

The next time a BN minister says that all Malaysians should be thankful because we don't have war and famine like Iraq or Sudan, bear in mind that what he/she really meant is that despite the BN politicians being heavily corrupted, ineffective at administration and totally racist, we should suck our rage in and shut up because nobody gets killed in a war or dies of hunger in Malaysia.

[klurtz]

the-model-racist-nation....u'r staying in a muslim country...juz accept it....if u don't like it...go back 2 china n have a peaceful life....
8)
i..myself would love 2 hear the subh azan(at 545am) bcoz it wakes me up in the morning..... :)
while when i hear the zuhr prayer..it tells me it's time for lunch....
n the asr prayer...it tells me to wake up(if i sleep during evening) or to go n play at the field.....
n maghrib,it tells me that it's time i should go back home..take some bath n have dinner...while isya' i may go n study n sleep afterward...u see..take things positively...let it be there...u can't go n destroy the mosque..that may create chaos or maybe some multi racial crisis...hear the azan n have an open mind..let it be your alarm clock or take it as some songs...u'll find more peace... :D

[digimushu]

Klurtz,

Not that i'm agreeing with what he says, but Malaysia is a secular country with Islam as its official religion, not exactly a Muslim country.

the-model-racist-nation,

We know who you are. You are actually noneedname. Please stop trolling. We try to practise tolerance here. If you have any thing you want to talk about, please do its as discussions, not sweeping statements.

[hercules]

the-model-racist-nation....u'r staying in a muslim country...juz accept it....if u don't like it...go back 2 china n have a peaceful life.... 8)
i..myself would love 2 hear the subh azan(at 545am) bcoz it wakes me up in the morning..... :)
while when i hear the zuhr prayer..it tells me it's time for lunch....
n the asr prayer...it tells me to wake up(if i sleep during evening) or to go n play at the field.....
n maghrib,it tells me that it's time i should go back home..take some bath n have dinner...while isya' i may go n study n sleep afterward...u see..take things positively...let it be there...u can't go n destroy the mosque..that may create chaos or maybe some multi racial crisis...hear the azan n have an open mind..let it be your alarm clock or take it as some songs...u'll find more peace... :D

Why don't you go back to your place of origin? for example ,indonesia,africa and etc.

[da-hype]

i know. isn't he a spoiler/troublemaker too. :P

Actually he isn't. Never in the Quran mentioned that a Women cannot pray alongside Mens. They do it in Masjidil Haram why not do it in all mosques?


NOTE: when u have u're "wudu" can't touch an opisite sex (expesially someone u can marry)

SO, in a small mosque it's easy to handle.. but how are u going to handle this when there are 2/3 million people cramped in a small area where space is limited???

[da-hype]

Mosques are mushrooming all over the place, even in non-malay majority areas - disturbing the peace of the neighbourhood by blasting their speaker out loud - even when people are trying to sleep!


u know what. this is the second time i've seen u're racist post. so i'll reply with some more racist post.. why don't the chinese stop burning the stupid fake paper cars/homes/money for the dead?? and stop burning stupid praying sticks?? why the fuck are u Polluting??

oohh and u're sleeping at 5:30am?? in the other forum u said malay's are lazy?? but wait we're up at 5:30 to pray and start our day??? now who's lazy??


Budhism is a philosophy based on nature law.


nature law = pulluting??


the Budha taught that seekers of truth must avoid two extremes-


i guess being and a fat fuck is not an extreme??
http://www.catgen.com/surendrashahi/EN/100089.html

[pringles]

Dear Da-hype,
I do not agree with any racist view too. However, not all Chinese burn fake paper for the dead-for instance, the Christians.

Using a racist view to counter another is not wise and will sub-counciously make you tend to be prejudice against Chinese even though you acknowledge that you are making a racist view.

noneedname or whatever name he use is entitled to voice his opinion though it is much exaggerated and look from a racist point of view. He can say whatever he want. My advice is too just ignore them or if you can't, mekw yourself calm down and reply with something sensible and mature.

Can I also propose that we replace 'race' with the word 'ethnic' as 'race' is based on biology and it has been proven that human is a relatively young species to have different races. Ethic is a better word as it is based on sociology(culture). Serbs and Bosnian are of same 'race' but have different culture due to diffrent religious practice.

[Schye]

I hope everyone could ignore both the-model-racist-nation and noneedname. The moderators have edited or removed some of their unsuitable posts which is out of topic but at the same time, we leave some which is related or we think that it is still can be handled by our members. So please ignore them if you cant accept thier opinions or prove that they are wrong. Replying with full of hatred will make you not much better than them.

By the way, burning those fake "model" fo the dead is more a tradition than a practise of religion. I am sure that Buddhism and Christian never encourage one to burn anything. Generalization shows nothing but how immature one is. So, keep cool and stick to the topic.

[da-hype]

Using a racist view to counter another is not wise and will sub-counciously make you tend to be prejudice against Chinese even though you acknowledge that you are making a racist view.



why don't u search the forum.. and see how many NON muslims have posted idiotic and ignorent views about islam! u guys grew up in malaysia, where islam is the official and biggest religion in malaysia... and yet being serounded by muslims.. and comming from islamic culture.. there are still people who manage to dis-respect others.. and make fun of other peoples relegion.

there have been numerest post about "70 virgins" in islam. i've explained it soooo many times.. it's getting kind of anoyying.

[da-hype]

By the way, burning those fake "model" fo the dead is more a tradition than a practise of religion.

now u know how muslims feel when people relate things going on in the world to islam. or when people HERE say things about "70 virgins", women rights (just cause "some" middle eastern countries are abit extreme) and so on... (search the forum)

i've noticed alot of this stereo typing going on here. (no nicks mentioned) it's kind of sad, cause u all have grown around muslim, hindu's ,christians , budhist and so on.. yet the level of ignorence is unbelievably high.

and just to note. just because this a public forum, and SOME of use are studyng oversea's. does not mean we have to lose our values and respect towards each other.


some of you guys here have met me and know me personally. and believe me.. my comments in NO way was meant to offend anyone. if you were.. now you know how some of us might feel. it's easy to talk bad about someone else's beliefs. Religion and race is NO joking matter. and please don't joke about religion. if you don't know ASK!

"budi bahasa, budaya kita"

ps: Schye, srry for quoteing u. hope u don't feel i'm singling you out. :P

[masdie]

i've noticed alot of this stereo typing going on here. (no nicks mentioned) it's kind of sad, cause u all have grown around muslim, hindu's ,christians , budhist and so on.. yet the level of ignorence is unbelievably high.

I have to agree on this. But it's not a one-way ignorance. A lot of chinese don't know about malay's lifestyles, and a lot of malays don't know about chinese's lifestyle. And this includes all the other races. The problem remains the same: how to educate all of them?

[da-hype]

I have to agree on this. But it's not a one-way ignorance. A lot of chinese don't know about malay's lifestyles, and a lot of malays don't know about chinese's lifestyle. And this includes all the other races. The problem remains the same: how to educate all of them?

agree..

i guess the best way might be by getting rid of chinese schools, tamil school, and malay only schools. and MIX THEM UP!!! damn. :p

i went to la salle PJ. quite a diverse school. (mixed with all races!) some of my BEST friends in malaysia are NON malay. spent 18 years living in OUG. (90% chinese i think :P), basically i spent / mixed mostly with none muslims/malays.

when i got excepted to UPM for my matriculation. I HATED IT.
reason... (hope this won't offend anyone)
ALL these students OUTSIDE of kl (majority i bet) will only hang out within their race! unless they absolutly HAVE to mix then they would do so (sports/class assignments)

chinese with chinese, malays with malays.. and indians with indian. i seriously HATED UPM. after 3 years (matriculation and 1 year into my degree) I left, can came to the US.

not much change i guess.. since i'm in Logan Utah... LOL. (mormons are just as bad :P)

not to say, that all chinese here are ignorent or bad. but MOST of the chinese friends i made in school and in OUG, were awsome guys and girls. they knew what i believed in, respected me.. and when it came to each other's festivals.. he/she came to mine.. and i came to theirs. It was a mutual thing.


PS: sorry if i don't make much sence. it's 5:30 am here. haven't slept. :P

[Schye]

By the way, burning those fake "model" fo the dead is more a tradition than a practise of religion.

now u know how muslims feel when people relate things going on in the world to islam. or when people HERE say things about "70 virgins", women rights (just cause "some" middle eastern countries are abit extreme) and so on... (search the forum)

i've noticed alot of this stereo typing going on here. (no nicks mentioned) it's kind of sad, cause u all have grown around muslim, hindu's ,christians , budhist and so on.. yet the level of ignorence is unbelievably high.

and just to note. just because this a public forum, and SOME of use are studyng oversea's. does not mean we have to lose our values and respect towards each other.


some of you guys here have met me and know me personally. and believe me.. my comments in NO way was meant to offend anyone. if you were.. now you know how some of us might feel. it's easy to talk bad about someone else's beliefs. Religion and race is NO joking matter. and please don't joke about religion. if you don't know ASK!

"budi bahasa, budaya kita"

ps: Schye, srry for quoteing u. hope u don't feel i'm singling you out. :P

I have taken a look at the other thread and I believe you should be angry. I think they were trying to cool down the thread but in a wrong way. In fact, as masdie posted above, "how to educate all of them?", we should try to start from ourselves. We cant educate all of them but we can always starts with the people around us including Recommers. Teach them and show that they are wrong, but of course with a nicer tone.

To those who know me, yes, I ask a lot about others religion and traditions whenever I dont know. I believe the "72 virgins" were just a symbol of rewards and its embodied to make one understands it easier.

Again, please stick to the topic. Do you think that muslim woman should be allowed to pray at the same space or segregated place or not being allowed to pray at a mosque at all? Do you support or not the act of the Indian Muslim Asra Nomani?

[PJKru]

I think it has already been given an explanation of the reason why men and women pray seperately. I think if i was praying behind a woman and she accidently brushed her dress against my trouser leg then i would have to make wudu again. It would be chaos. its not a question of equality rather it is more practical for the seperation of woman and men. thats the way i look at it.

[budakkerek]

PJKru, i think the wudhu wont batal, unless she touches a part of his body, like hand or arm. Coz wudhu' will only be batal if you touch the skin of a person of the opposite sex, someone that you can marry. If it's berlapik, i dont think it will batalkan the wudhu.

[PJKru]

even still there is plenty of chance of touching skin of a man if hes wearing short sleeved shirt or even peoples hands can brush accidently quite easily. Also what about if the woman is pretty and the man is just staring into space waiting for the jamaat. and the woman is also there and the man gets erection then he has to take his wudu again. especially boys. its easy for adolescent to get erection just looking at a woman face i think. So basically it seems to me that there are some practical reasons for it being seperated. Its not about equality rather practical. But i take your point budakkerek.

[PJKru]

When woman and man are around each other its difficult to focus for some people. Some people have higer libidos because they may not be getting any sexual action and hence the mere thought of a woman can send emotions racing. And when you're trying to focus one hundred percent on god and the satan is there trying to get you to make mistakes in your prayer and your next to a woman and you havent had sex for years then it can be a task to keep your concentration one hundred percent on allah. But i still think woman should be able to drive and work.

[gonjeng]

to add to that, this has not been the practise of the Prophet (pbuh). There is no hadith nor sunnah whatsoever that states that women and men pray together. Why not? Allah knows best... The Prophet (pbuh) told the muslims in a sahih hadith that 'pray as how we see him pray'. Since what she and some others did was not according to the sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh), it is considered a bid'ah and hence, has to be condemned. It does not really matter if the wudu' batal or not, a bid'ah is a bid'ah...

[Zeroth]

Quote:

Budhism is a philosophy based on nature law.



nature law = pulluting??


Da-hype, i understand that you're just shooting at noneedname, but i am terribly insulted by your remarks. By the way, burning joss sticks are practices of taoism, not buddhism.

If you want to discuss abuot pollution, then what about noise pollution to those who wants to sleep in the mornings?

I do not intent to argue or go against you here, but please be considerate of the feelings of other forummers. Thanks! :) Smile always!

[gonjeng]

alright... lets call it stop to all the insults and the game of throwing tantrums to each other, aight? i can bet, in the end noneedname is the one whos smiling as his/her plan works - to stir racial hatred amongst us malaysians. in order to fight the irresponsible racial remarks spread by some a-holes, we shouldnt be stooping ourselves to the level as low as the racist :) so peace, aight?

[Zeroth]

i'm just wondering, how do we know that model-racist-nation is noneedname?

[Zeroth]

the-model-racist-nation....u'r staying in a muslim country...juz accept it....if u don't like it...go back 2 china n have a peaceful life....


He's not necessarily from China. We are all Malaysians!

[gonjeng]

i'm just wondering, how do we know that model-racist-nation is noneedname?

coz they share the same IP. nevertheless, i dont think it really matters whether the two are the same ppl or not. what is more important is that the person clearly abuses the freedom of expression/speech in the internet by making racial slur/remarks... :)

[PJKru]

The key question is does the koran say we have to pray separetely or where do we get this information from(if not from the koran)?


There are 73 or more sects in islam. If the koran says its not right then i dont think its right for a woman to pray alongside a man but i think a woman should have many rights that they're denied throughout the muslim world. If you go to a orthodox christian mass then you'd also see the women and men separated into two aisles. I'm not sure about orthodox jewish but i presume that to be the case too. I cant speak for any other religions.

I dont really know the history of the institution of prayer so i cant really comment about it too much.
I've already said that from a logical point of view it makes sense to not allow woman to pray alongside men because a man can loose his focus and wudu which would invalidate his prayer but also i think somebody said that it is biddah and that is reason enough to not allow the man and woman praying together from an orthodox muslims perspective.

Anyway i dont want to be seen to be encouraging something which is against the orthodox teachings of islam. And when you're talking about going against the grain in islam it can be a very dangerous thing to do. The whole point behind us praying and following the orthodox religion the way you're supposed to is the belief that you're following the teachings of god. So in the case of these biddahs, if the word of god tells you not to something then by doing it you're not following the word of god.

Anyway i practise religion moderately. Religion should be a relationship between you and god because it is up to you whether you believe that the actions you take will grant you salvation. Religion does teach you good values that you would find difficult to implement if you didnt think they were coming from the mouth of your creator. Tolerance and brotherhood for the sake of the creator are two values that are taught in islam. Anyway i'd like to say that out of all the muslims who frequent recom im probably the least knowledgeble. If you have any questions see endomion_serene, taufiq, gonjeng, or masdie.

[deekay]

Pardon my ignorance on the specificities of Islam but wouldn't this woman's actions be more akin to Rosa Parks action in the US civil rights movement ?

Similar kinds of debate must have been going on at the that time and as history shows, some of them spilt into violence.

But, it did bring about change, eventually. There are people still oppose to this, I am sure but they are a minority, I believe.

[PJKru]

I see where you're coming from deekay. But when it comes to the word of god we either obey or we dont obey. if the word of god in the book of god says we have to pray separately then we have to pray separately. Its not about saying that women and men dont have equal rights cos i believe they do contrary to the opinion of many people in islam.

The key question is does the koran say we have to pray separetely or where do we get this information from(if not from the koran)?

[ToietMoi]

even still there is plenty of chance of touching skin of a man if hes wearing short sleeved shirt or even peoples hands can brush accidently quite easily. Also what about if the woman is pretty and the man is just staring into space waiting for the jamaat. and the woman is also there and the man gets erection then he has to take his wudu again. especially boys. its easy for adolescent to get erection just looking at a woman face i think. So basically it seems to me that there are some practical reasons for it being seperated. Its not about equality rather practical. But i take your point budakkerek.
Wei, teruklah, disebabkan lelaki nak sembahyang, lepas tu sendiri tak pandai tawaduk, perempuan pula yg disalahkan dan disingkirkan. Kalau nak belajar di sekolah, ada perempuan dengan lelaki. Jadi kalau lelaki naik nafsu sebab ada perempuan, lepas tu lelaki tak dapat belajar, nak keluarkan perempuan dari kelas juga ke? Aku pernah dengar ada sekolah yang buat, aku minta maaflah, macam berundur saja bagi aku.
Wuduk batal semata-mata tersentuh perempuan? Kena tengok ikut aliran mana jugakan?
Da-hype, aku faham sangat apa yang hang alami waktu di UPM. Tapi kena ingat, sistem yang hendakkan sangat berteruju kepada Islam yang se"suci" mungkin, di mana orang atasan sistem ni ingat "tanggungjawab" nak bawa orang lain ke jalan yang "benar' terletak di atas bahu dorang, menyumbang sedikit malah sebanyak kepada keadaan sekarang.
The Prophet (pbuh) told the muslims in a sahih hadith that 'pray as how we see him pray'. Since what she and some others did was not according to the sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh)
Gonjeng, nabi takda cakap boleh pakai sudu untuk makan nasi, bida'ah juga kalau makan nasi dengan sudu? Lagipun setahu aku, dalam buku-buku panduan sembahyang yang dijual di Malaysia, ada ajar macam mana nak sembahyang dengan ada saf perempuan kan?
PJKru, bukan hak hang lah cakap hang ni "moderate". Hang boleh cakap hang "moderate"(minta maaflah, aku tak jumpa perkataan dlm BM), orang lain akan anggap hang "extrimist".

[PJKru]

i'm leave this reply to the other muslims here cos im the least knowledgeble on islam out of all the malays on this website. all i know is that it is biddah and batal your wudu by touching a woman whilst in state of wudu. Let the others answer im not fit to answer regarding this point.

[lyzzy]

Also what about if the woman is pretty and the man is just staring into space waiting for the jamaat. and the woman is also there and the man gets erection then he has to take his wudu again. especially boys. easy for adolescent to get erection just looking at a woman face i think.

Gosh, are you speaking from experience?
________
grow medical marijuana (http://growingmedicalmarijuana.org)

[lyzzy]

And if men are so easily aroused by women or if it's forbidden to accidentally touch women, instead of kicking women out, why not kick the men out? Let the women pray in peace.
________
Dodge B Series specifications (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Dodge_B_Series)

[deRame]

And if men are so easily aroused by women or if it's forbidden to accidentally touch women, instead of kicking women out, why not kick the men out? Let the women pray in peace.

after reading the 3 pages of the discussion of this issue, i think u guys have seen this issue from a quite inaccurate perspective. it's not because of some dudes are so easily aroused by women. moreover IMO the segregation between men and women in mosque is not a discriminination against female. this scenario is more like the toilet story. why do we have two toilets for both men and women? why do we need extra toilet room? why no one say that it's a gender discrimination against female?

yes, one might answer, no matter how open minded both of gender are, they still need privacy from each other. we don't want to be disturbed by other gender when we answer the nature call. i'm sure that most of men if not all, really don't like the idea of peeing in the urine bowl when there are women beside them. we need privacy to focus 100% to do one of our basic need. the same things also apply to women.

apply this scenario to this issue. praying is one of the basic things a muslim must do. we need to focus 100% for our prayer. even there is slight 1% of misfocus to our prayer, our prayer will have less quality and might not be accepted by Allah (btw, it's up to Allah whether to accept or not our prayer) so we as human must do as best as we could for the best quality prayer so that it will be accepted. moreover in principle, prayer is a mean of communication between human and God. and a certain level of privacy is needed to achieved that. having an opposite gender beside us shoulder-to-shoulder is not a brilliant idea to focus 100% for the prayer. even in classroom during our day in school, we sometimes lost attention to the lesson and took some chance to stare at the opposite gender, rite? :D

understand the situation now? imagine if a woman goes to men's toilet, and say "i demand a right to pee with u guys!" 8O


p/s: in Mecca however men and women are not segregated. it's imposible since that small space is filled tightly by 2-3 millions people in one time (during hajj or pilgrimage season). so in that darurat situation, men and women are forced to pray beside each other.

[lyzzy]

understand the situation now? imagine if a woman goes to men's toilet, and say "i demand a right to pee with u guys!" 8O


First, what I know of this issue is what I read from PJKru's arguments. PJKru says that men are aroused by women in mosque to the extent that men might masturbate if men sees a woman's face. I quote PJKru:" easy for adolescent to get erection just looking at a woman face i think." I was replying to that.

My second post was directed to the original article http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3926461.stm, which you should read in order to avoid generalizations. To go with your analogy of separate toilets, OF COURSE women should go to the their own toilet. And in order to pray in peace, men and women should be segregated. But from what I understand, there's no 'women -only' mosque, right? But there are men-only mosques. And this is the basis of discrimination.

I quote the article:
Muslim women in California, Minnesota and Maryland are against the practice of "herding" women in small rooms like sheep where much of the time they cannot hear the preacher, she says.

________
herbalaire vaporizer (http://herbalairevaporizer.com)

[taufiq]

A lot of thing to say.
But the first and the most obvious thing.

Misunderstanding of bid'ah.
Bid'ah that is not allowable is the bid'ah in practicing the deen. (Bid'ah dalam ibadah) Eating using spoon is not a bid'ah in ibadah. Hence going to school/work in a car instead of a camel is not a bid'ah as well.

If you pray fajr 4 raka'at, it's bid'ah. If you fast without breaking fast for the whole day, then it's also a bid'ah.

About touching the opposite gender, we must understand the argument first before choosing to follow it whether to say that it will invalidate our wudhu' or not. We shouldn't just mix and match our religion just like that.

[digimushu]

Then can someone tell me why a woman leading prayer sessions is being frowned on?

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/005408.php

NEW YORK (AP) A female professor led an Islamic prayer service Friday with men in the congregation despite sharp criticism from Muslim religious leaders in the Middle East who complained that it violated centuries of tradition....


Only a handful of protesters showed up outside the event and they conducted a counter prayer service on the sidewalk, led by a young American man who would only give his name as Nussruh. "These people do not represent Islam," said the clearly furious Nussruh. "If this was an Islamic state, this woman would be hanged, she would be killed, she would be diced into pieces."...



Makes me scared of an Islamic state. Can someone please clarify?

[taufiq]

The Amina Wadud case had been discussed hundreds of time especially during the time when she humiliated me and thousands other Muslim.

Has anyone read about any woman leading a prayer before? During the time of the Prophet pbuh when he says "Pray like you see I pray" ?? Or after that? Is that how Aminan Wadud interpreted "pray like you see I pray" ??

Did A'isha the greatest teacher among female who is thousands time more pious then Amina Wadud has ever led a prayer for both men and women??

This is one of the example of bid'ah in practicing the deen (ibadah).

About the statement that has been bolded, I would say that is a response of a person who was soooo angry by what Amina Wadud did. Don't forget that she continue to do what she wasn't supposed to do even after a lot of great imams/Muslim leaders have told her not to do it.

Have you ever made your mom/dad/teacher angry by doing things that they have warned you against it? You'll know..

[Thirdshifter]

First and foremost taufiq, Can you please tell me between the Koran and the hadith* which has a bigger authority to you?

*Hadith (sort of like a hearsay but with substantial circumstantial evidence)

Koran has in many of its verses repeated that Man words (this will include hadith) will not be spared from skewing and manipulation, but The Koran however will hold truth to the end of days.

[gonjeng]

i agree with taufiq...

irst and foremost taufiq, Can you please tell me between the Koran and the hadith* which has a bigger authority to you?

*Hadith (sort of like a hearsay but with substantial circumstantial evidence)

Koran has in many of its verses repeated that Man words (this will include hadith) will not be spared from skewing and manipulation, but The Koran however will hold truth to the end of days.

the quran and sunnah are the two resources in islam. there's no such thing as one is on top of each other. the prophet did say that those (muslims) who holds on to the quran and sunnah will not be deviated from the truth. if you study the science of the sunnah, ppl have taken such extent to validate them. also, a muslim is supposed to believe on those two.

[hafidz]

Did A'isha the greatest teacher among female who is thousands time more pious then Amina Wadud has ever led a prayer for both men and women??

i find this statement interesting, and I agree on the grounds that there are without doubt even more eminent Muslim sisters who at very least are more qualified to be a leader in a prayer session...

not to sidetrack, i do wonder, what are stances for other religions? i don't recall as much as hearing about a Christian and female cardinal/bishop/priest/leader of Sunday mass let alone a female Pope... i have yet to learn about a female rabbi leading prayers as much as just for Hanukkah... i definitely haven't seen a female Dalai Lama; in fact, maybe i havent seen enough of the world but no, i have yet to see as much as female Buddhist monk leading prayers on Wesak... if someone could inform an ignorant prick like me that would be very much appreciated (honestly).

for the record, i am not trying to shift the focus away from Islam but it is indeed a valid point to raise, in a world where Islam is public enemy #1, and where we are the only ones perceived to be treating women like shit. however, i would agree to a certain extent that there is a need for my fellow muslims to admit that for the most part our track record on treatment of women isn't exactly golden..

but please, unless there is scholarly article/quote/religious passage that justifies Dr. Amina Wadud's actions, i would contend that she stepped out of line.. but the only difference is that i don't feel a need for her to be seen as an infidel.. or even as a troublemaker.. in fact, i think her actions have caused even the most casual of muslims like me (yeah, i said it) to think of islam in this oh-so-modern world... heh after all, this is God's will, no? (hah!)

personally, i would rather worry about the "backwardness" of Islam on issue of women when i see a female pope in vatican, a female head rabbi and a female dalai lama or just a woman leading prayer sessions of any religion... but until then my policy is wait, see and listen... in fact, as far as US and americans go, i will wait until a female president is sworn in..

senator rodham-clinton 2008 maybe? better be...

[Thirdshifter]

also, a muslim is supposed to believe on those two.

Well, some Sect of the Islamic world requires that and some others don't. Anyways...

A "sahih"Hadith usually a Hadith that correlate with the Quran. So let's get to it then.

Which Surah or any verse in the Koran has mentioned about:

1. Women not being allowed to lead a Prayer.

2. Women if praying in a congregation (berjemaah) that includes all genders must pray behind the last Male Line.

3. Praying space must be segregated.

4. Women discourage to go to Mosques.

Please cite a verse fro mthe Koran to support a Hadith Quote. Let's be fair, because Islam now also includes the ever more popular color of the 21st century, Grey. Well not color.. shade.. well thats also debatable.

[ToietMoi]

in fact, as far as US and americans go, i will wait until a female president is sworn in..

senator rodham-clinton 2008 maybe? better be...
:lol: :lol: I am afraid that you would have to wait longer than that.

Lepas tu deRame, aku rasa kalau ada tandas perempuan dan tandas lelaki, sebabnya lebih kepada lelaki yang kencing tak pandai tembak tepatlah... Lepastu tak angkatkan bingkai tandas sebelum kencing. Sekolah aku kat sini tandasnya ada yang campur, ada yang tak, terpulanglah nak pakai yang campur ke tak.

Lepastu taufiq, walaupun nabi ada cakap, "Sembahyanglah, bagaimana aku sembahyang". Ayat ni boleh ditafsir dengan bermacam2 caralah... diantaranya:
Dia cuma merujuk kepada aturan sembahyang, mula dengan berdiri ke, rukuk ke, sujud ke... Tak sebut pasal "perempuan tak boleh sembahyang di masjid dengan lelaki" Ke sebut juga?
Yang pasal Aisha tak pernah jadi imam pula, kenalah juga letakkan diri dalam konteks dulu, sebelum tu perempuan kena tanam lepas lahir, baru sahaja Islam larang perbuatan tu, nak paksa perempuan jadi ketua pula, mengamuk ah orang lelaki... Katakanlah tak ada larangan dari segi Islam utk perempuan jadi Imam, Aisha pun mungkin fikir dua kali sebelum tetiba nak jadi imam kalangan lelaki.
Cakaplah aku munafik ke, kafir ke, jahil ke, aku rasa Islam perlebihkan logik, daripada ikut membabi-buta sahajalah...

[PJKru]

Also what about if the woman is pretty and the man is just staring into space waiting for the jamaat. and the woman is also there and the man gets erection then he has to take his wudu again. especially boys. easy for adolescent to get erection just looking at a woman face i think.

Gosh, are you speaking from experience?
i can get aroused if a womans wearing tight jeans hugging her bum and sitting crosse legged :). but im talking more from what ive heard other people say rather than from my own experience. are you happy now? im a man its natural.

[PJKru]

understand the situation now? imagine if a woman goes to men's toilet, and say "i demand a right to pee with u guys!" 8O


First, what I know of this issue is what I read from PJKru's arguments. PJKru says that men are aroused by women in mosque to the extent that men might masturbate if men sees a woman's face. I quote PJKru:" easy for adolescent to get erection just looking at a woman face i think." I was replying to that.


Maybe i worded it wrongly. you might get aroused by a woman

In my university theres a woman only prayer room next to a men only prayer room. I dont see why there shouldnt be a woman only mosque? if a rich man or woman wants to build one then there should be one i suppose. i dont know i could be wrong though. I can see what some of these men in these countries are afraid of with woman like lyzzie around. They're afraid of encountering woman like lyzzie. Its your type of woman that keeps the muslim woman down lyzzie. always fighting, gesticulating and testing, probing, lying, slandering. No wonder the woman in the saudi cannot drive or work or whatever its because of women like you. :P

[taufiq]

ToietMoi,

Killing a daughter has been abolished a long time before solat has been commanded to Muslims. Read hafidz arguments about female leading religious activities in other religions.

Also you arguing that Islaam is based more on logic has no base. Is the story about the chest of the Prophet pbuh was cut and his heart was cleaned sounds logic to you? If not are you going to choose not to believe it?

Of course it's a different story. But what logic has Amina Wadud used to confirm her that she leading a prayer is allowable?

About the saying of Rasulullah, if you learn about hadith, you should know that what Rasulullah says has a lot of meanings; not just one. He definitely asked us to follow the way he prays as in takbeer, ruku' etc. But at the same time he asked us to observe the other actions as well. Such as who should lead the prayer. If there is a knowledgeable person, then let him lead. If there is a person who is good in recitation, then he should lead. Those arguments are all included in the concise words of Rasulullah because his words are also one of his mukjizat. You can find a lot of intepretations of the same words that Rasulullah said; but i bet you can't do with other persons words.

Rasulullah lived for 63 years. Are we expecting him to have uttered the rullings for every single actions that will happen thousands of years in human lives? That is why his words are concise but precise; and have a lot of meanings to be intepreted by knowleadgeable people.. not just ordinary people like us. (except if there is any here)

Third,
Sorry my reply of your comments comes down here.
As Gonjeng says, both are important. We shoudn't leave any of them. But personally i think Quran is the main resource because what the sunnah do is explaining the Quran. Allah said in the Quran that we must pray. But He did not instruct us "how" to pray in the Quran. Rasulullah showed the method to us. And that does not mean that we can pray in a different way right?

[lyzzy]

understand the situation now? imagine if a woman goes to men's toilet, and say "i demand a right to pee with u guys!" 8O


First, what I know of this issue is what I read from PJKru's arguments. PJKru says that men are aroused by women in mosque to the extent that men might masturbate if men sees a woman's face. I quote PJKru:" easy for adolescent to get erection just looking at a woman face i think." I was replying to that.


Maybe i worded it wrongly. I wouldnt masturbate just looking at a woman. I said they'll get erection, i meant get aroused. erection is a bit too erotic for some people like lyzzie. Although it means roughly the same thing. I didnt say anything about masturbation. Why do you deny that a boy can get an erection easily? sex is natural. if you get an erection you dont have to masturbate. But getting aroused breaks the wudu. you have to take wudu again. anyway im bored of this subject. lyzzie i want you to please delete that where you said i said you can masturbate if men sees a womans face. Its only fair i didnt say that so you should watch how you slander people. Every man gets aroused everyday but they dont masturbate so you're wrong lyzzie.

In my university theres a woman only prayer room next to a men only prayer room. I dont see why there shouldnt be a woman only mosque? if a rich man or woman wants to build one then there should be one i suppose. i dont know i could be wrong though. I can see what some of these men in these countries are afraid of with woman like lyzzie around. They're afraid of encountering woman like lyzzie. Its your type of woman that keeps the muslim woman down lyzzie. always fighting, gesticulating and testing, probing, lying, slandering. No wonder the woman in the saudi cannot drive or work or whatever its because of women like you. :P

???? I thought that women in saudi arabia cannot drive or work because or people like you, who, as you said, "can get aroused if a womans wearing tight jeans hugging her bum and sitting crosse legged". So, they ban these women from driving or working because if they see a woman, they will be aroused. Like what you do.

(sorry to be crude again, but in spirit of replying)

My apologies, I really have no clue as to the difference betw erection and masturbation. Thank you PJKru for pointing the differences out. I am enlightened.


not to sidetrack, i do wonder, what are stances for other religions? i don't recall as much as hearing about a Christian and female cardinal/bishop/priest/leader of Sunday mass let alone a female Pope... i have yet to learn about a female rabbi leading prayers as much as just for Hanukkah... i definitely haven't seen a female Dalai Lama; in fact, maybe i havent seen enough of the world but no, i have yet to see as much as female Buddhist monk leading prayers on Wesak... if someone could inform an ignorant prick like me that would be very much appreciated (honestly).


I get the feeling that you wrote this because you want like justifying actions by Islams, by pointing out the discrimination against females in other religions. Well, there IS discrimination against females in other religions, but that should go to another thread - if you would find an article (like what the original post of this thread did) that points out incidents of these types of discrimination, I'll be happy to talk. This isn't a competition between religions. Anyway, for the record, though there are no female Dalai Lamas yet, there are female monasteries and female monks.

From http://www.progressive.org/mag_intv0106

The Dalai Lama: First, among the followers of all different religions, women are in the majority. Among Hindus, women are so much more devout, and, similarly, for Buddhists, too. I think when religions such as Hinduism and Buddhism?as well as Christianity and Judaism?were founded, at that time societies were generally male-dominated. So, therefore this social notion also influenced religion. For example, when the Buddha came on the scene 2,500 years ago, the society that the Buddha was preaching in was a male-dominated society. If he stressed feminist viewpoints, nobody would have listened to him. [Laughs] I think even these great masters used to teach according to the prevailing social circumstances. In Buddhism also, a bhikshu [ordained man] is considered higher than a bhikshuni [ordained woman]. Ordained males usually sat higher.

The important thing is that now, for the past thirty years, we have worked to change that. Many nuns are very sincere, but they have had no chance to ascend to the highest ordination level. This has made me somewhat uncomfortable, especially since the Buddha gave equal opportunities to women. But we, even as followers of Buddha, neglected that. In the last few centuries, we completely neglected the quality of religious studies in nunneries. For the last forty years, ever since we?ve been in India, nunneries have developed better. Then, we introduced the same levels of studies for both males and females. Now it is possible for both men and women to get doctorates in Buddhist studies.


To paraphrase, the Dalai Lama mentions that times are changing, and Buddhism should keep up with it.

There are no women priests in the Roman Catholic Church, but the Church of England first ordained woman priests in 1992, thereby making it possible for women to be the leader of that church.

Bid'ah that is not allowable is the bid'ah in practicing the deen.
Sorry, I don't understand several terms used here like deen? And sunnah? Could someone explain? Thanks.
________
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[taufiq]

I'm sorry lyzzy..

Deen = the religion (specifically i mean islam)
Sunnah = the words or acts by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)

[masdie]

My apologies, I really have no clue as to the difference betw erection and masturbation. Thank you PJKru for pointing the differences out. I am enlightened.

This is why M'sians have to start teaching sex education in schools.

[taufiq]

Third,
I have found some Hadeeths from the saheeh Bukhari alone:

Woman should pray at the back:

Volume 1, Book 12, Number 819:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

My grandmother Mulaika invited Allah's Apostle for a meal which she had prepared specially for him. He ate some of it and said, "Get up. I shall lead you in the prayer." I brought a mat that had become black owing to excessive use and I sprinkled water on it. Allah's Apostle stood on it and prayed two Rakat; and the orphan was with me (in the first row), and the old lady stood behind us.

Volume 1, Book 12, Number 830:

Narrated Anas:

The Prophet prayed in the house of Um Sulaim; and I, along with an orphan stood behind him while Um Sulaim (stood) behind us.


Permission to go to the mosque/masjeed:

Volume 1, Book 12, Number 824:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

The Prophet said, "If your women ask permission to go to the mosque at night, allow them."

Volume 1, Book 12, Number 832:

Narrated Salim bin 'Abdullah:

My father said, "The Prophet said, 'If the wife of any one of you asks permission (to go to the mosque) do not forbid her."

There is one ocassion where a sahabat was so jealous with his wife whenever she goes to the mosque. I don't remember the story well. Maybe anyone can elaborate on it?

Also look at this one:

Volume 1, Book 12, Number 828:

Narrated 'Aisha:

Had Allah's Apostle known what the women were doing, he would have forbidden them from going to the mosque as the women of Bani Israel had been forbidden. Yahya bin Said (a sub-narrator) asked 'Amra (another sub-narrator), "Were the women of Bani Israel forbidden?" She replied "Yes.

and this too :

Volume 1, Book 12, Number 829:

Narrated Um Salama:

Whenever Allah's Apostle completed the prayer with Taslim, the women used to get up immediately and Allah's Apostle would remain at his place for someone before getting up. (The sub-narrator (Az-Zuhri) said, "We think, and Allah knows better, that he did so, so that the women might leave before men could get in touch with them)."

-this implies that women were praying at the back, hence they can leave easily and quietly.
-it also implies that they were not praying together in one line.
- You might say that i am assuming but that is what agreed upon many scholars that are more knowledgeable. And they did a lot more researches.

[PJKru]

understand the situation now? imagine if a woman goes to men's toilet, and say "i demand a right to pee with u guys!" 8O


First, what I know of this issue is what I read from PJKru's arguments. PJKru says that men are aroused by women in mosque to the extent that men might masturbate if men sees a woman's face. I quote PJKru:" easy for adolescent to get erection just looking at a woman face i think." I was replying to that.


Maybe i worded it wrongly. I wouldnt masturbate just looking at a woman. I said they'll get erection, i meant get aroused. erection is a bit too erotic for some people like lyzzie. Although it means roughly the same thing. I didnt say anything about masturbation. Why do you deny that a boy can get an erection easily? sex is natural. if you get an erection you dont have to masturbate. But getting aroused breaks the wudu. you have to take wudu again. anyway im bored of this subject. lyzzie i want you to please delete that where you said i said you can masturbate if men sees a womans face. Its only fair i didnt say that so you should watch how you slander people. Every man gets aroused everyday but they dont masturbate so you're wrong lyzzie.

In my university theres a woman only prayer room next to a men only prayer room. I dont see why there shouldnt be a woman only mosque? if a rich man or woman wants to build one then there should be one i suppose. i dont know i could be wrong though. I can see what some of these men in these countries are afraid of with woman like lyzzie around. They're afraid of encountering woman like lyzzie. Its your type of woman that keeps the muslim woman down lyzzie. always fighting, gesticulating and testing, probing, lying, slandering. No wonder the woman in the saudi cannot drive or work or whatever its because of women like you. :P

???? I thought that women in saudi arabia cannot drive or work because or people like you, who, as you said, "can get aroused if a womans wearing tight jeans hugging her bum and sitting crosse legged". So, they ban these women from driving or working because if they see a woman, they will be aroused. Like what you do.

(sorry to be crude again, but in spirit of replying)

My apologies, I really have no clue as to the difference betw erection and masturbation. Thank you PJKru for pointing the differences out. I am enlightened.


I dont like the way you put that.
I dont get aroused by every single female i see maybe if shes really pretty and has a fit body and is wearing tight clothing it turns me on but its not just people like me its all men so you shouldnt say it like im in the minority. All men are the same. but are you saying that its right that woman have less rights just because men would find that they might be aroused more frequently if they were wearing western clothing. I dont go around and im sure lots of men like me dont going around looking to get aroused. it just happens sometimes but far less frequently now im in my twenties then when i was an adolescent. im trying to discuss things in a frank manner with you being as sexually liberatingly open unlike many adults and muslims and you're making me out to be some kind of bad guy, you cant win can you. you think any of these other muslims at recom will talk the way im talking frankly speaking about these issues as i s for me And you're supposed to be chinese and sexually liberated non muslim and all and you're talking like a div who knows nothin I dont go round looking for woman to arrouse me but sometimes very rarely it happens dont it, get it

[lyzzy]

you think any of these other muslims at recom will talk the way im talking frankly speaking about these issues as i s for me

They talk with rationale and with more sense. And they don't make generalizations (look at quote below) like you do. Instead, they use verses from established sources.


I dont get aroused by every single female i see maybe if shes really pretty and has a fit body and is wearing tight clothing it turns me on but its not just people like me its all men so you shouldnt say it like im in the minority. All men are the same.


All men are the same? How do you know that? Did you do a study on all men and asked them whether they got aroused by "really pretty" females? (Maybe a few, maybe some, maybe most, but definitely not all)

My point is that you use your own experience, and assumes that everyone has the same experiences too. This is called a 'faulty generalization'.


And you're supposed to be chinese and sexually liberated non muslim

First, that's an insult. Second, what does being chinese have to do with sexual liberation or anything? Chinese is my race. Race and religion aren't the same thing. I could be Christian, Buddhist, even Muslim, for all you know. (there are a lot of Chinese Muslims in the province of Xinjiang, China)

taufiq, thanks for the explanation. Now I can read previous posts with ease.
________
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[ToietMoi]

Killing a daughter has been abolished a long time before solat has been commanded to Muslims.

Nabi Muhammad terima wahyu umur 40, meninggal umur 62/63, bagi aku 20 tahun tu taklah lama sangat. 20 tahun nak ubah sampai 100%? Ntahlah, aku ragu? sikitlah...
Read hafidz arguments about female leading religious activities in other religions.

Macam lyzzy cakap, agama lain, cerita lain.
Also you arguing that Islaam is based more on logic has no base. Is the story about the chest of the Prophet pbuh was cut and his heart was cleaned sounds logic to you? If not are you going to choose not to believe it?

Bagi akulah, hang mungkin tak setuju, kadang? benda ni lebih kepada metafora. Macamlah cerita 70dara tu. Ataupun cerita dunia dicipta dalam masa 7 hari, 7 malam. Ataupun cerita buah yang Adam dan Hawa makan. Ataupun pasal lelaki kurang satu tulang rusuk. Lepas tu aku nak tahu, cerita ni datang dari Quran ke Hadis?
Of course it's a different story. But what logic has Amina Wadud used to confirm her that she leading a prayer is allowable?

Apa pula logiknya perempuan tak boleh? Sebab lelaki boleh naik nafsu sebab tu perempuan pula yang kena terima akibat? Apasal tak aje lelaki yang tinggal kat rumah kalau takut naik nafsu? Lagipun menurut berita tu dan apa yang aku faham, dia cuma masuk sembahyang sama saf dengan lelaki sajalah.
You can find a lot of intepretations of the same words that Rasulullah said; but i bet you can't do with other persons words. Eh, boleh... Contohnya apa yang hang cakap, aku boleh anggap ada dua makna. Antaranya:
1.Aku tak boleh cari orang lain yang perkataannya boleh ada dua maksud.
2. Aku tak boleh cari orang lain yang setiap tatahnya ada hikmat dan penjelasan lanjut di sebaliknya.
Rasulullah lived for 63 years. Are we expecting him to have uttered the rullings for every single actions that will happen thousands of years in human lives? That is why his words are concise but precise; and have a lot of meanings to be intepreted by knowleadgeable people.. not just ordinary people like us. (except if there is any here)
Apa maksud orang "pandai" ataupun "berpengetahuan"? Bagi aku ni benda ciptaan ntah siapa lagi supaya kuasa ada di atas tangan dorang. Contoh, ntah imam/mufti/apa2 aje di Palestin yang buat fatwa kalau bom diri sendiri untuk bunuh orang israel, boleh jamin masuk syurga. Orang tak berpengetahuan macam aku ni pun ikutlah membabi-buta... (Benda ni aku tengok berita mana dah aku dah lupa, jadi takdalah usulnya yang aku boleh bagi)

Aku rasa perbincangan ni dah mula keluar tajuklah... Berbalik kepada apa yang perempuan dalam berita tu buat, aku rasa masyarakat Islam tak sedia untuk terima lagi dan sampai bila? pun takkan sedia.

[hafidz]

I get the feeling that you wrote this because you want like justifying actions by Islams, by pointing out the discrimination against females in other religions. Well, there IS discrimination against females in other religions, but that should go to another thread - if you would find an article (like what the original post of this thread did) that points out incidents of these types of discrimination, I'll be happy to talk. This isn't a competition between religions. Anyway, for the record, though there are no female Dalai Lamas yet, there are female monasteries and female monks.

thanks for pointing out on the female monasteries and monks for buddhism... but to the main point now:

the reason i argued in this manner was not to imply "when other religions resolve issue of women and religious leadership, Islam will follow". quite the contrary, it was just an attempt to prove that the real issue here is in fact, the status of women in all institutionalized religions. sure, maybe Christians and Jews and Buddhists etc do not enjoy such notoriety in "opressing women", but the point is why is Islam being pinned as the "bad boy" of them all, as if the status of women is uniquely problematic within the tenets of Islamic practice and teachings?

in essence, the reason i brought up the argument is that i, a self-professed casual muslim, believe that there has to be substantial evidence or scholarly piece of work that suggests that a) it is permissible for women to lead prayer sessions and b) it is permissible for men and women to pray alongside one another to support Dr Wadud's actions. quite similarly, in a laboratory procedure, if guidelines are drawn albeit rather ambiguously to explain "how to do it", is it absolutely necessary for a separate guideline to tell us "how NOT to do it?" for example, if transport of certain sensitive material has been done in accordance to guideline A, do we need to transport it via another method, one that is unproven? my contention: no.

in fact, the only way to know is to experimentally figure out possible alternatives (conduct a thorough research as to whether women are allowed to lead prayers). and as per my earlier remarks, is it not common practice in discussing the legal validity of a specific course of action to compare and contrast across different precedences (i.e other Semitic religions, at the very least) to check and see if this should also apply to Islam? maybe comparisons to Buddhism would be somewhat inaccurate, but to "cousins of Islam" i.e. Judaism and Christianity seems fine, no? which essentially is the premise of the remarks i have made in the previous post...

last thoughts, consider this example: say i consider myself to be a smart person. but can i confirm that by just looking at myself, without ever comparing myself to other people (e.g. fellow Recom members)? and from the looks of it, no, i am a nobody when compared to you guys. but hey, guess what? a) i know what i need to do to improve myself and b) if all of us do the same, wouldn't ALL of us improve eventually?

which is why i said what i said.. and thanks again lyzzy, for that info on Buddhism.

[Thirdshifter]

Third,
I have found some Hadeeths from the saheeh Bukhari alone:
I know i'm a pain in the ass, but can you find some Koran verses that back those few hadtih?

You might say that i am assuming but that is what agreed upon many scholars that are more knowledgeable. And they did a lot more researches.

You assume to much, twice in that sentences. You assumed that I would think you assumed and you assumed that scholars have done a lot more researches.

So indirectly you are assuming your beliefs on the assumptions of others.

I have gone through reading few different Koran translation ( I got hooked when i was staying at the 4 seasons in KL, they have a Koran in each room )

The Quran has never once mentioned the technicality of praying.

Also, In most Muslims context, prayers automatically revolves around the 13 prayers code. Who exactly came up with that? the school of Shafie? Is shafie a prophet?

I have never (or may have missed, i doubt that) a chapter, a verse touching on the subject of Women is less worthy then a Man. Most of the imbalance of Gender equality in the Islamic world comes from the lack of education, not the hadith or the Koran. However many of the discriminations are being justified by Muslim mens using the Hadith.

The Hadiths should only be accepted as a reference. (sort of like a FAQ) and it has been almost 1400 years since this FAQ has been updated, Hadith is not what God required.

So if a Women can not even lead a simlple prayer just because there are Men available, Isn't this also implying that no matter how capable or knowledgable a Women can be, she should never lead Mens?

So to ever have a Women leader in any organization is un-Islamic?

I also strongly believe that many of the backward thinking of Muslims today came from the Ottoman turks. This was the time when Muslims burnt books for fire that bent their swords.

However I am optimistic that the 21st century will be is the Islamic Renaissance.

[taufiq]

Third,
It's okay.. i don't mind finding things that can increase my knowledge as well. I haven't got time to look up the Koran yet though.
As for the assumption about the research, it's not an assumptio, i know they had a lot of research done. Read their books and you'll know. They quoted a lot of stuff from different kind of books.

About the technicality of prayer, as i said, the Koran only asked us to pray. Prophet Muhammad pbuh taught us the right method to do it. That's why we should leave neither the Koran nor the Hadeeth.

Having women as a leader in organization is okay, but not in prayer.
It's a different thing, different argument. Prayer is a matter of ibadah while organization is a matter of muamalat.

ToietMoi,
Seems like you have things of your own. If you can't accept that there are certain people that is actually knowledgeable (like imam syafie, ahmad, malik, hanafi, nawawi, bukhari, muslim etc) then there is no use for me to explain what they said.

Also Amina didn't just pray together win men. She did actually led the prayer where the makmum (people following her) were men and women together in the saf. Women joining jumaah prayer in different saf is normal over here, but not leading the prayer and not praying together in the same line with men.

I think I don't have to explain about the mukjizat of the prophet Muhammad where his words have different meanings. If you really know him (after reading and learning about him), then you'll know what I mean.

Say, if there are at least 10 people who have learned about Quran and Hadeeth and Seerah and Usuluddin and etc, who said that what Aminan did wa wrong. Then for us (who only learn about the religion by reading and Googling) to be indefferent maybe is not wrong, but to disagree totally with them and saying that they are wrong and we are the right one... I would that there's something wrong with us.

[PJKru]

lyzzie. then if a man wasnt turned on looking at a woman, how could there be reproduction? you're stupid lyzzie. picking at straws all the time. To be turned on by a woman she has to be doing something in a provacative manner. showing her curves something like that. its natural. every man is like that because its what people talk about in mens magazines and so on. if men werent turned on by women there would be no babies in this world. you're stupid lyzzie. i dont know why im talking to a stupid girl. :P

[lyzzy]

lyzzie. then if a man wasnt turned on looking at a woman, how could there be reproduction? you're stupid lyzzie. picking at straws all the time. To be turned on by a woman she has to be doing something in a provacative manner. showing her curves something like that. its natural. every man is like that because its what people talk about in mens magazines and so on. if men werent turned on by women there would be no babies in this world. you're stupid lyzzie. i dont know why im talking to a stupid girl. :P

Running out of arguments, I see... It's interesting to see how long you can defend your position/ arguments without resorting to personal attacks - in your case, like ten posts. What do they teach kids at school nowadays?
________
Chevrolet Bison (http://www.chevy-wiki.com/wiki/Chevrolet_Bison)

[PJKru]

what is your argument lyzzie? my argument is that its biddah and for the sake of rationalism(which is how most non muslims approach things) im giving you a reason why praying together would make things dificult. Thats all. take it or leave it. what is your counter argument then? men getting aroused by women or boys getting aroused by women to be more specific is not the main reason. the main reasons are biddah and also touching a woman invaladates your wudu. thats all. Have you got anything to say about that? by talking about this arousal by women i was digressing. so what do you have to say about my main points.

[__earth]

what is your argument lyzzie? my argument is that its biddah and for the sake of rationalism(which is how most non muslims approach things) im giving you a reason why praying together would make things dificult. Thats all. take it or leave it. what is your counter argument then? men getting aroused by women or boys getting aroused by women to be more specific is not the main reason. the main reasons are biddah and also touching a woman invaladates your wudu. thats all. Have you got anything to say about that? by talking about this arousal by women i was digressing. so what do you have to say about my main points.

Pjkru, I think, when you say male Muslims get aroused whenever they see females, you're speak for yourself.

Please don't make a hasty generalization. I know I don't get aroused/excited whenever I see females.

[Thirdshifter]

what is your argument lyzzie? my argument is that its biddah and for the sake of rationalism(which is how most non muslims approach things) im giving you a reason why praying together would make things dificult.

You tried but your rationalism sucked.

Here's whats rational. Sexual harrassment lawsuits! Women would scream, that an asshole grabbed her tits and that little pinch on her nipple is worth 50,000 dollars. So the mosque people figured.. damn, lets pre-emptively cover our asses..

Hey bitch! go in the back.. or the balcony or something.

[PJKru]

FOR THE SAKE OF GOD I DIDNT SAY THAT I WAS TURNED ON EVERYTIME I SEE A LADY IM JUST SAYING THAT IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES LIKE IF A WOMAN IS WEARING SOMETHING EROTIC OR IF SHES MAKING CERTAIN MOTIONS WITH HER BODY THEN A MAN CAN GET TURNED ON, GEEZE, now you understand me right?

[taufiq]

Actually I'm agree with PJKru.

By arguing about someone getting aroused or not does not prove prove the case that a woman can pray in the same line as man.

If one old lady pray in the same line as an old man where both of them are deaf and blind and can move only using wheelchair, it is still wrong.

It's not because of sexual arousal. It's because it is not the the way prayer has been instructed.

[iQing]

lyzzie. then if a man wasnt turned on looking at a woman, how could there be reproduction? you're stupid lyzzie. picking at straws all the time. To be turned on by a woman she has to be doing something in a provacative manner. showing her curves something like that. its natural. every man is like that because its what people talk about in mens magazines and so on. if men werent turned on by women there would be no babies in this world. you're stupid lyzzie. i dont know why im talking to a stupid girl. :P

I disagree
Not all men are like that but you choose to believe so.... :D

Ego turns believers into extremists

[da-hype]

FOR THE SAKE OF GOD I DIDNT SAY THAT I WAS TURNED ON EVERYTIME I SEE A LADY IM JUST SAYING THAT IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES LIKE IF A WOMAN IS WEARING SOMETHING EROTIC OR IF SHES MAKING CERTAIN MOTIONS WITH HER BODY THEN A MAN CAN GET TURNED ON, GEEZE, now you understand me right?

have u seen muslims' pray? imagine if there was a girl praying infront of you, and during prayers she had to "bend over"... u telling me u won't get any none holly thought's running threw u're mind?

[iQing]

FOR THE SAKE OF GOD I DIDNT SAY THAT I WAS TURNED ON EVERYTIME I SEE A LADY IM JUST SAYING THAT IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES LIKE IF A WOMAN IS WEARING SOMETHING EROTIC OR IF SHES MAKING CERTAIN MOTIONS WITH HER BODY THEN A MAN CAN GET TURNED ON, GEEZE, now you understand me right?

have u seen muslims' pray? imagine if there was a girl praying infront of you, and during prayers she had to "bend over"... u telling me u won't get any none holly thought's running threw u're mind?

you mean down blouse?
errrr.... no
as the woman is covered from head to toes and if any guy still get turned on when seeing a covered "mummy" woman.... that guy must be something wrong. yuck.

Hmmmm..... If a praying woman looks erotic to you, there is something wrong with you.... yuck

:P

btw, if a local holy man or a religious leader tells you something and expect you to believe in his words would you believe him totally? like saying woman should do this or that, and give some sort of excuse about why woman should do this or that, which seems okay to you.... and you will believe him totally and defend him totally?

like saying you should not listen to western music and give some sort of excuse like saying it is the voice of evil and it can ruin your mind.... would you believe in him and choose to give up your choice to "fit in" to whatever he says?

[da-hype]

you mean down blouse?
errrr.... no
as the woman is covered from head to toes and if any guy still get turned on when seeing a covered "mummy" woman.... that guy must be something wrong. yuck.

Hmmmm..... If a praying woman looks erotic to you, there is something wrong with you.... yuck


if you EVER spend time in the middle east, which OBVIOUSLY YOU HAVEN't. you'll understand why i say this.. even when a girl is covered up, and all u can see is her eyes, you can't help wondering how she looks under all that clothes. and when a lady "bends over" during prayers, you CAN see her body shape.

ps: i don't know why NONE muslims even post their point of shitty view on islamic topics when they don't know what they are talking about most of the time.

[Thirdshifter]

you mean down blouse?
errrr.... no
as the woman is covered from head to toes and if any guy still get turned on when seeing a covered "mummy" woman.... that guy must be something wrong. yuck.

Hmmmm..... If a praying woman looks erotic to you, there is something wrong with you.... yuck


if you EVER spend time in the middle east, which OBVIOUSLY YOU HAVEN't. you'll understand why i say this.. even when a girl is covered up, and all u can see is her eyes, you can't help wondering how she looks under all that clothes. and when a lady "bends over" during prayers, you CAN see her body shape.

ps: i don't know why NONE muslims even post their point of shitty view on islamic topics when they don't know what they are talking about most of the time.

However.. the topic is about a Female American-Muslim in America being thrown-out of a mosque her father built because she wants to pray on the same line with the Male mosques goers.

So, In America with girls who wear micro-mini skirts that sometimes is so short you can actually see the pussy winking at you.. how is your arguement relevant about women in burqas bending over?

[PJKru]

lyzzie. then if a man wasnt turned on looking at a woman, how could there be reproduction? you're stupid lyzzie. picking at straws all the time. To be turned on by a woman she has to be doing something in a provacative manner. showing her curves something like that. its natural. every man is like that because its what people talk about in mens magazines and so on. if men werent turned on by women there would be no babies in this world. you're stupid lyzzie. i dont know why im talking to a stupid girl. :P

I disagree
Not all men are like that but you choose to believe so.... :D

Ego turns believers into extremists

im not turning into any kind of extremist, you dont me , if you knew me you'd probably think is this guy that religious? so you're telling me when do you get turned on ? Also i could be wrong but most muslim single males dont get any action that means that they probably have more tension then non muslim single males. i could be wrong though.

[Thirdshifter]

PJkru.. your totally wrong! We have Muslim girls wearing hijab giving blowjob to Muslim mens in parks all over the country.

You don't see that with the chinese or Indians i can tell you that!

Muslim men get way to much action.. go to jakim and ask for the statistics.

[PJKru]

I'm waiting for my princess to arrive. I'm not going to get a blow job.

[Thirdshifter]

I'm not going to get a blow job.

You have a problem with fellating or you dont be be fellated? Not that there's anything wrong with either., :P

[da-hype]

However.. the topic is about a Female American-Muslim in America being thrown-out of a mosque her father built because she wants to pray on the same line with the Male mosques goers.

So, In America with girls who wear micro-mini skirts that sometimes is so short you can actually see the pussy winking at you.. how is your arguement relevant about women in burqas bending over?

in america or not in america, i didn't know girls were allowed to pray wearing mini skirts. oh wait, i forgot.. you can tell god .. "i have an american passport, i can do what ever i want. plus my dad built this mosque."

[Thirdshifter]

in america or not in america, i didn't know girls were allowed to pray wearing mini skirts. oh wait, i forgot.. you can tell god .. "i have an american passport, i can do what ever i want. plus my dad built this mosque."

I think you misunderstood me.

Let me rephrase.

This topic is discussing about the validity of the rule of no women allowed to prey amongst Men.

Like taufiq has said earlier.. will your arguement stand if all of the Men in that mosque are all blind? They can't see the women bending over.. hence no sexual arouse, so it does that mean it's ok?

However like taufiq said and i agree. There's basically nothing logic about Women praying behind men or infront of men.. but it is how it was instructed to us... sort of like Muslim cannot eat pork.. not that pork would kill you or anything.. but it is just prohibited.

[taufiq]

Thanks for bringing it up again Third.
The discussion has sort of running away from its original topic.
That's natural in Recom though.. :P

(maybe in other forums as well)

[PJKru]

There are medical reasons(logical) why eating pork is bad for you. I have a book somewhere( i cant find it now but when i do i'll let you know) explaining the reasons why pork is forbidden in islam from a medical view. I'm pretty certain that the book was published in malaysia by a chinese muslim.

[PJKru]

i found the book its written by haji ibrahim tien ying MA.

THE REASON WHY MUSLIMS ABSTAIN FROM PORK PART ONE
a)To practise hygiene and to attain purity of nature
The abstention from eating pork is one of the steps taken by islam to pratise hygeine and to attain "purity of human nature" How does islam teach us clean living ? islam firstly insists on purity of our soul and on cleanliness of the body and secondly on gentle phsyical exercise. One of the five pillars of islam, i.e. prayers affords the best form of gentle exercise. science lays great emphasis on hygeine but neglects the importance of the cultivation of human nature in its purest form. It is similar to the concentration on the study of materialism and spiritualism . In fact spiritualism and the culture of pure nature are two subjects of science and philosophy which have been temporaritly neglected. I say temporarily neglected because i sincerely believe it will be revived and given its rightful prominence in future thorugh new inventions of science.

Hygene is superficial and materialistic but the cutlture of inner faculties is a more provoking study involving both body and spirit.
b)Islam regulates emotions. Not annihilate them
Ilam , like other religions , places great emphasis on good character and virture. Islam claims that man is born innocent. Mencius as well as Islam believe that good and bad are learned gradualy ; but the difference between the two theories is that islam teachers how to attain virture and how to shun bad habits because both good and bad grow up in man according to his education and environment in his daily life.

A human being has natural desires - food , sleep and sex. the three primary ones- and he has natural emotions such as happiness, anger, sorrow, love, fear, appetite and desire.
Desire is brough about by the instinct of possession. A dissatisfied instinct of possession breeds envy and eventually develops jealousy and avarice. Islam nevertheless does not recommend the anihilation of the emotions as some religions do but offers a method to control them because , as long as men lives, these emotions will exist . emotions are like the motor in a vehicle. it is up to the driver to control and guide it to useful ends.
c)selection of food

The prohibition of the eating of pork in islam is a forward step in materialistic education . This leads automatically to deeper understanding of the need for the culture of a pure human nature. As blood is virturally our life and what we consume ultimately affects the blood system . it is therefore necessary to excercise choice in the section of our food and drink. It is quite obvious that the more man has advanced in civilisation, the more carefully he selcts his food. we also know that the uncivilised people of the world in the past were canibals. they start to select food when they reach the door of a higher cutlure. they also lose their preivious inferiority complex. these are the proofs supporting my statement.

the advance of human nature into its purest from does not end in the abstinance from pork eating. the eating of flesh of creatures which die a natural death or in the course of fighting be they cattle goats or poultry is equally forbidden by islam. we do not know if scientists have made a study of flesh or blood of animals which have died as a result of fighting but we muslims are tuaght not to consume the flesh of those animals.

apart from the above and as a matter of principle, muslims do not eat the flesh of animals of prey such as the lion, gtiger, leopard, snakes and even cats, dogs rats, etc. this prohibition is based on the purification of ones nature. because food when consumed does not merely enter the intestines and becomes excreta . it is absorbed in to the blood system and circulated to all parts of the huamsn body including the brain and this in no small way affects mans nature.

islam allows muslims to p arake of clean flesh, it neither prevents nor enocourage anyone to become vegetarians. however in the consumption of flesh, muslims are require to be selective. some people have argued that the modern pig is given only clean food and therefore its flesh should be consumable. the answer to this argument is this. you the feed the pig with clean wholesome mash but you cannot change its nature. it is still a pig. a pig is not a plant and you cannot change it by bud grafting.

d)nature of a pig
The pig is naturally lazy and indulgent in sex. it dislikes sun light and lacks the spirti and will to fight . the older it grows the lazier it gets. it easts almost anything be it faeces or anything dirty. it prefers dirty places to clean ones. it easts and sleeps only and hate moving arround. it is the most avaricious of all domestic animals. amongst all animals , the pig is the greatests cradle of harmaful germs. p ork also serves as a carrer of diseases to mankind. it is for this reason that it is not suitable for consumption