Secularism

[__earth]

Since the issue of secularism has come to surface in the Interracial marriage thread (http://recom.homelinux.org:8000/~recom/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=27845#27845) (and somewhat has been hijacked), I have created a new thread for secularism. I hope any issue concerning secularism will be addressed here.

Secularism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism), according to ReCom's unofficial encyclopedia, Wikipedia.

I support any advancement towards secularism because of two factors (at least, these two are the ones that I can think of ATM) :

1. All men are created equal. Secular laws allow a creation of civil laws that can be applied to everybody. In a way, it promotes fairness.

2. Freedom. Secularism has been proven to promote religious freedom and understanding among various groups. Also, a progress towards a more liberal society.

[deekay]

Here is an excerpt from a paper by Louay M. Safi titled "ISLAM AND THE SECULAR STATE : Explicating the Universal in Formative Islamic Political Norms"


The secular state emerged in modern times in response to religious infighting that plagued Europe for over a century, and put social life on a self-destructing path. The Hundred Year War posed a serious threat to the then emerging modern Europe, underscoring the need to keep the state and church at a comfortable distance.

While the secular state was designed to prevent organized religion from controlling public institutions, it did not necessarily aim at undermining religiosity per se, or alienating religious communities. Rather, it was perceived as multi-religious society?s best defense against the imposition of the religious values and worldview of one community on another.


The paper can be viewed at http://home.att.net/~louaysafi/articles/2001/SecularState.htm

I agree with the views of _earth. Harmony will prevail when everyone is treated equally and with respect.

[kucingbiru]

stop malay bashing -> interracial marriage -> secularism ->??(let's hijack again) :P

[tinny]

secular laws are man-made. thus it does not have any certainty that it will allow justice because man has the tendency to make mistakes. can man make his own laws when he does not even know for sure who he is and what is his purpose of life? philosophers have been debating about laws all the time since Plato and aristotle. stilll they have not found a solution which is certain. it might seem fair to a certain extent and to a certain amount of people, but never will it achieve perfection and justice to all of mankind

[digimushu]

secular laws are man-made. thus it does not have any certainty that it will allow justice because man has the tendency to make mistakes. can man make his own laws when he does not even know for sure who he is and what is his purpose of life? philosophers have been debating about laws all the time since Plato and aristotle. stilll they have not found a solution which is certain. it might seem fair to a certain extent and to a certain amount of people, but never will it achieve perfection and justice to all of mankind



true, but the Bible and the Quran both are written, as far as I know, by humans as well. They may be the word of God that but I do believe that they are passed through the prophets(who are humans anyway). and we all know what that means right? it means that whatever are in the Holy texts are possibly subjected to human interpretation and human error as well.

[kucingbiru]

true, but the Bible and the Quran both are written by humans as well. They may be the word of God that but they are passed through the prophets(who are humans anyway). and we all know what that means right? it means that whatever are in the Holy texts are subjected to human interpretation and human error as well.

show some respect will ya?

[digimushu]

Ok ok...my fault
But u do get my point rite?

I have respect for all religions but I was just trying to make a point. has anyone here watched Dogma(starring ben affleck and matt damon)? Those who watched it will get my point.

According to the history Channel, a lot of the facts in the Bible may be skewed to the perspective of the writers. For example, the role of women in the bible has been downplayed a lot. They say that it may be because of widespread chauvinism amongst the men at those times.

My point is...all and everything we see, touch and hear are touched by humans. Is there anything called absolute truth? or are we just listening, seeing and touching relative truth?

No offense meant to anyone.(My apologies to anyone who feels offended)

[__earth]

Try to view the following from a third person's POV - an atheist or somebody that wants to choose a religion - not a religious or a secular person.

secular laws are man-made. thus it does not have any certainty that it will allow justice because man has the tendency to make mistakes.

As far as a third person is concerned, so-called God's laws are also written and enforced by men. Mistakes happen in comprehending and enforcing God's laws too. Digimushu's statement struck the chord brilliantly.

can man make his own laws when he does not even know for sure who he is and what is his purpose of life?

Should a third person follow a law carved out what seem to be out of thin air? For instance why should somebody eat with the right hand just because somebody did that long ago? Why should us not we pork out of no reason? (Just for the record, I don't eat pork)

philosophers have been debating about laws all the time since Plato and aristotle. stilll they have not found a solution which is certain.

This IMO is kind of mouthful to say while the human made laws are all around you. On the contrary, countries with God's laws are the ones that are struggling to contain their citizens.

it might seem fair to a certain extent and to a certain amount of people, but never will it achieve perfection and justice to all of mankind

Places that have implemented God's laws do not seem to be very successful when compared to secularized ones. Your statement is not supported by the proofs. Unless you could find a supporting evidence for your statement, I do not think you right.

In fact, in the recent case of apotasy and the conversion of two children, do you really think justice is served? From a Muslim's POV, perhaps. From a non-Muslim's POV, it is somewhat an injustice.

Justice my friend, depends on which side of the fence you are. Secularism tries to make justice from a comparative to an absolute notion, making it matter not which side you are on.

[ElansarGelmir]

Well, if 100% of the nation is of one single religion, then it's possible to enforce its religion's law... else, if it's a multi-racial and multi-religion country, it's best to enforce secularism.... Coz it will be the, perhaps, most acceptable system in a country with where the nations are free to practice different beliefs...


show some respect will ya?

Errmm... not to say that we dun respect, but if something is true, we can't stop one from pointing it out... perhaps digimushu can use better euphonism in the future, huh?

Laws and codes are still made by humans, though they could be enlightments from the Great Power above...


can man make his own laws when he does not even know for sure who he is and what is his purpose of life?

If everyone agrees and have no trouble with the law, or at least everyone's needs and freedoms are guaranteed and protected.... why not?

[misled_youth]

UMNO and PAS is empowered by imposing their religious values onto muslims in this country.

Do you think they will allow us to thread the secular line? No no.

Forget religious freedom or secularism. Let's just concentrate on fundamental rights. Such as the rights for Malays to choose their religion. (read this for context: http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/28562)
________
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[ElansarGelmir]

Wow... where's freedom here?

[digimushu]

Hrmm..

Just wondering..what is stopping ANY STATE from being a secular country?

[Thirdshifter]

Hrmm..

Just wondering..what is stopping ANY STATE from being a secular country?

Religious zealots? Ulama? Preecher? Tok kadi? All the people who are Alim?

[__earth]

UMNO and PAS is empowered by imposing their religious values onto muslims in this country.

Do you think they will allow us to thread the secular line? No no.

Forget religious freedom or secularism. Let's just concentrate on fundamental rights. Such as the rights for Malays to choose their religion. (read this for context: http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/28562)

religious freedom is fundamental right. it is actually freedom to choose.

[deekay]

UMNO and PAS is empowered by imposing their religious values onto muslims in this country.

Do you think they will allow us to thread the secular line? No no.


Recom is the Worldwide Malaysian Students Network. One day, some of the members of Recom may be leaders in UMNO or PAS.

Change can come from within, if truly political & religious leaders think as Malaysians and human beings instead of narrower interests.

Leadership takes courage and courage requires conviction.

[kucingbiru]

show some respect will ya?

Errmm... not to say that we dun respect, but if something is true, we can't stop one from pointing it out... perhaps digimushu can use better euphonism in the future, huh?


look, whether one religion is true or not, that's based on someone's opinion. it is best if one says "in my opinion, this religion is bla bla bla", not just "this religion is bla bla bla" as if that's an irrefutable fact.

[ElansarGelmir]

Hmmm... ok, i get ur point here.... but my point is, dun have to be too sensitive over small comments, especially about our religion.... yeah, maybe it's the matter of respect, but sometimes it could be good if one will tolerate a little, if the comment doesn't cut too deep inside us....

OK, one question... Are there any changes to our system after our country's being declared as an Islam country by our Prime Minister?

[digimushu]

Hrmm..

Just wondering..what is stopping ANY STATE from being a secular country?

Religious zealots? Ulama? Preecher? Tok kadi? All the people who are Alim?

I dont just mean Muslim countries..look at the US - "In God We Trust" and the UK - "God Save the Queen"

Why cant all governments isolate the elements of religiousness from executive decisions? is it to win a certain type of voters?
A government with no preference for any religion would be the best IMHO. Why? Because the government is for the people, not for any religion. Democracy dictates that the government is created by the people, for the people. (i know i'm gonna hang for this...)but should there be any preference for people of any religious affiliations?

[Thirdshifter]

[quote=digimushu]Hrmm..

Just wondering..what is stopping ANY STATE from being a secular country?

Religious zealots? Ulama? Preecher? Tok kadi? All the people who are Alim?

I dont just mean Muslim countries..look at the US - "In God We Trust"

USA never had in god we trust until 1956. It was more of a propaganda when the cold war started. This issue has been braught up several times by americans and its just a matter of time when they get rid of it again.

[digimushu]

Maybe, but remember, they still need religiously pious voters. The issue of pro-choice is another thing. Anyone remember about that court that has issues with the Ten Commandments in front of it?

Big fuss over it, I remember...

[Thirdshifter]

Maybe, but remember, they still need religiously pious voters. The issue of pro-choice is another thing. Anyone remember about that court that has issues with the Ten Commandments in front of it?

Big fuss over it, I remember...

yes, But thats what secularism is all about. People can say "hey! no more 10 comendments. I don't beleive in that and it should go away."

Remember the Kid who ask the In god we trust be taken out of the Pledge of alliance in USA?

USA is a very good example of secularism. It's not to extreme like no head covering etc in goverment buildings etc. Malaysia could just emulate the level of secularism in USA and it would be almost perfect and fair to everybody.

[digimushu]

Oooo.. True!

Ok...
so can someone pleeeaasse explain to me the role of religion in the process of governing a nation?

What are the advantages/disadvantages of decoupling church from state?

i'm not against any religion here. I'm just wondering what role does religion play in the governance of a state
:D

[__earth]

i'm not against any religion here. I'm just wondering what role does religion play in the governance of a state
:D

Probably asserting their values on the society in general, making values held dear by the religion are not violated.

[digimushu]

in the words of Bill Maher,

'if you are steering a ship of state, would you use a compass or a Bible?'

Just something I thought i should share...

[gonjeng]

in the words of Bill Maher,

'if you are steering a ship of state, would you use a compass or a Bible?'

Just something I thought i should share...

i, personally, would use what i believe is right and can direct me to the right path :)

[digimushu]

in the words of Bill Maher,

'if you are steering a ship of state, would you use a compass or a Bible?'

Just something I thought i should share...

i, personally, would use what i believe is right and can direct me to the right path :)

Unfortunately, can we as humans judge what is right?
With reference to my earlier post...


secular laws are man-made. thus it does not have any certainty that it will allow justice because man has the tendency to make mistakes. can man make his own laws when he does not even know for sure who he is and what is his purpose of life? philosophers have been debating about laws all the time since Plato and aristotle. stilll they have not found a solution which is certain. it might seem fair to a certain extent and to a certain amount of people, but never will it achieve perfection and justice to all of mankind



true, but the Bible and the Quran both are written, as far as I know, by humans as well. They may be the word of God that but I do believe that they are passed through the prophets(who are humans anyway). and we all know what that means right? it means that whatever are in the Holy texts are possibly subjected to human interpretation and human error as well.

[deekay]

As an analogy, if you put 10 people of differnt race/religion/ethnic background in a room together to decide what is the "right" way, you will get at least 5 versions. This could be a recipe for conflict.

Doing things the right way is commendable but what is the right way?

I'll go with civil laws over religious ones.

[gatecrasher]

Unfortunately, can we as humans judge what is right?

whether we're able to or not, we still have to think for ourselves. at least we know we have brains which can help a lot with that.


Doing things the right way is commendable but what is the right way?

I'll go with civil laws over religious ones.
exactly. there are religious texts besides the bible. and then there are free thinkers, agnostics and atheists.

[digimushu]

Unfortunately, can we as humans judge what is right?

whether we're able to or not, we still have to think for ourselves. at least we know we have brains which can help a lot with that.


Doing things the right way is commendable but what is the right way?

I'll go with civil laws over religious ones.
exactly. there are religious texts besides the bible. and then there are free thinkers, agnostics and atheists.

Agreed! So, back to my question...what is the role of religion in governing the state, aside from the reason mentioned by _earth?

[ElansarGelmir]

i think it's a tradition which a country holds to these days and is not ready to let go (perhaps because of the citizens?)... in the past, multi-religion countries were not prevalent... In most cases, a country with a nation of the same religion.... if there were any other ppl with different religions in that country, the number was, perhaps, negligible... And that's why it's easier to integrate religion into the govt's policy... Not many ppl will dispute the policies, and many are happy with it... it's like some instruments (like the myths and legends about a king to mengukuhkan kedudukan raja) to make the citizen accept and abide the rules and policies of the ruling govt/king.... And thus, it became a tradition...

[gatecrasher]

imho religion shouldn't have any role in governing the state. even if most citizens of a nation are members of the same faith, it doesn't mean they agree to being governed according to its laws and/or doctrines.

[ElansarGelmir]

imho religion shouldn't have any role in governing the state. even if most citizens of a nation are members of the same faith, it doesn't mean they agree to being governed according to its laws and/or doctrines.

Well, that was in the past.... But now as we are in the present, and especially living in a multi-racial and religion country, you are right... Religion should no longer have any influence in govt and any judiciary policies... I guess this can be called equality...

[digimushu]

imho religion shouldn't have any role in governing the state. even if most citizens of a nation are members of the same faith, it doesn't mean they agree to being governed according to its laws and/or doctrines.

Well, that was in the past.... But now as we are in the present, and especially living in a multi-racial and religion country, you are right... Religion should no longer have any influence in govt and any judiciary policies... I guess this can be called equality...

Absolutely true! the 'it was good enough for daddy, it is good enough for me' mentality should NEVER be adopted. Our country should always strive to move ahead, or be left behind...