HOS VI: Silence is the key

[Young]

We need to stop trying to make wrong right. God has put on the inside of every man that inner knowing of what is right and what is wrong and saying that homosexual behavior is wrong is not gay bashing. Is it bashing to say that people who enjoy sex with an animal are wrong? Is it RIGHT to say 'well this is just a part of who they are." Why is sex with animals still regarded as wrong but sex with same sex changed and is now right. New Testament said that there is homosexuality for a reason. It is allowed because of sin in the earth and man's desire NOT to RETAIN the KNOWLEDGE of the creator in their lifestyle. That would mean submitting to HIS authority.

This is ridiculous circular reasoning.

Homosexuality is wrong because the Bible says so. Why does the Bible say homosexuality is wrong? Because homosexuality is wrong.

There is just no way to break that cycle. It makes absolute no sense from a logical point of view.

And you seem to think that EVERYBODY ubiquitously believes that homosexuality is wrong. Not everyone on Earth is a Christian fundamentalist, Shuwen. There are MANY Christians who disagree with that line of thought. Just ask Obama.

[ayjiahui]

Hahaha! Bible can be legend. It is a book written by men, several thousand years ago, and is barbaric and destructive towards humanity. See? I can make a worthless statement without any semblance of evidence or an example as well.

I understand that you're gay. So basically no matter what the facts are you will twist them or outright deny them to suit your magical beliefs.

shuwen why you say byebye but don't actually leave har?

[Dominic]

I simply pointed out what's said by the majority of Christians.

Ah, yet another statement with no evidence whatsoever. You outdo yourself, my dear.

And even if it were true, you believe the majority to be always right? then you should stop supporting the opposition and start supporting the government, because they are the majority.

[ayjiahui]

Whatever. :)) I simply pointed out what's said by the majority of Christians.When you claim that it's my translation of Bible, then I lose you.

But again, Christianity is only a belief and therefore has no capacity to prove itself true without resorting to circular logic. Which is why faith is faith in the first place.

Just because it is true to you, doesn't make it true to others. So please. stop. shoving. your. doctrine. down. our. throats. you. won't. change. us. so. please. leave.... zzzzz

[Dominic]

shuwen why you say byebye but don't actually leave har?

She PM-ed me, received a long reply, and decided to quote it here and reply me instead of replying me via PM.

[ApriliaGuy]

Let's just make a unanimous decision; all who think shuwenteo is a troll say "Aye"

Aye

[Young]

Hahaha! Bible can be legend. It is a book written by men, several thousand years ago, and is barbaric and destructive towards humanity. See? I can make a worthless statement without any semblance of evidence or an example as well.

Actually, that statement DOES have evidence.

1. The Bible can be legend.

http://www.recom.org/forum/showpost.php?p=398354&postcount=74

2. It is a book written by men.

Well, it certainly wasn't written by God on a magical typewriter and then chucked onto Earth.

3. Several thousand years ago.

Correct.

4. Barbaric and destructive towards humanity.

Hmmm...

Sodom and Gomorrah,
the Ku Klux Klan,
the Crusades,
witch trials,
the Inquisition,
bombing of abortion clinics,
the Ireland/Northern Ireland divide,
Christianity's part in the Roman Empire,
supreme corruption of the Church in the early-middle ages,
the St. Barthalomew's Day massacre,
persecution against Wiccans

and many many many more juicy stories, all committed under the direct influence of Christianity. :)

[Dominic]

I don't judge.

Oh, the hypocrisy! Remember the thread you called 'immoral'?

[Dominic]

Whatever. I didn't say that's you! :cry

I STARTED the allegedly immoral thread. The thread was about homosexuality. You called it immoral, so you called homosexuality immoral, which means you consider me immoral.

[ApriliaGuy]

She actually apologised. We're making progress, push harder

[Young]

I STARTED the allegedly immoral thread. The thread was about homosexuality. You called it immoral, so you called homosexuality immoral, which means you consider me immoral.

Why so immoral, Dominic? Insaf laaaaaaaaa :P

[plawks]

But He will judge us and we are supposed to love and care for each other until such time as His judgement.

He text you ah? How'd you know? I don't even know who is he, why should he judge me? :(

[henry_yew]

If you really want to engage in proper discussion, then please:

1) Don't outnumber someone by 3 or 4 *people*, or give *long*, *well-researched* replies. It's rude, and it projects a holier-than-thou attitude especially when all those posts were specifically targeting at someone. You're hounding someone but you never realized. If we do the same thing to you in another forum, I doubt you liked it much. If you respect someone, then don't.

2) Accept that not everyone is Atheist/Buddhist/whatsover, and not everyone wants to be, especially in this conservative society. The way you're spreading LGBT only makes others want to stay away from it. You should lead by example, not suffocate us with immoral threads. Be a good Atheist/Buddhist/whatsover and others will see the value in your religion.

3) If you disagree with someone, don't hound them with many replies. They are neither Lord God nor MPs in Parliament. The way you reply only serves to annoy *people* more.

6) Lastly, accept that others may not necessary be at the same level of knowledge that you have. If you want someone to respect you, then please, respect them as well.


Aiyo... I laughed so hard. So farnee lah....

Why so immoral, Dominic? Insaf laaaaaaaaa :P

Yeah lah, Dom (I wonder if anyone actually called you Dom - if not, I'll be the first :P), kenapa tak moral? Taubat la......

[yanno_yamster]

I'd be really amazed at her trolling skills if the mods decide to lock this thread, a thread where you can write almost anything under the sun.

By the way, nobody celebrated the 3000th post mark? Poor Boyz... I'll throw some confetti for him :confetti

[marczeman]

Btw shuwen, I'm curious; how old are you?

[marczeman]

21. What's the problem?

No problem. Just that I'd ask you out if your my age. Oh well, you probably don't date infidels anyway...:(

[henry_yew]

No problem. Just that I'd ask you out if your my age. Oh well, you probably don't date infidels anyway...:(

foreveralone.jpg?

[marczeman]

infidels ? why ?:P

Okay seriously, would you date someone if they didn't believe in Jesus and DAP?

[henry_yew]

Okay seriously, would you date someone if they didn't believe in Jesus and DAP?

I would. You wanna date me?

*i'mjustkidding*

[marczeman]

Sorry... pardon... WHAT? o_O

He meant this
http://i.imgur.com/AyK1q.gif


Although technically that's .gif lah

I would. You wanna date me?

*i'mjustkidding*

:jk

^fcking love that smiley

[henry_yew]

But yeah, all joking aside, thanks to the mods thats dealing with things like that :P Did i mention you guys are awesome?

Wah, eve88, I can cry already.... so touched. That is like the first time you mention that we're awesome. :P You better not kutuk from belakang yeah... :notrust

But, we also have an awesome crowd right?

*me off to the gym* See you in an hour.

[Young]

That's a funny question. I love it. :P

Seriously, I never thought about that. I was raised Catholic but I am not a blind follower. I do read Quran and other teachings, yet I don't believe in any of them except Jesus. I don't want to be forced into "your religion" either. You know la. If you really believe in your God, you won't be influenced by peer pressure or whatsover.

If I could empirically prove to you that the Bible was mostly fabricated, would you still believe in Christianity? :P I won't do it, but it's a real question.

[ayjiahui]

If I could empirically prove to you that the Bible was mostly fabricated, would you still believe in Christianity? :P I won't do it, but it's a real question.

NOBODY ASK ANOTHER QUESTION!!!

give shuwen the space to answer this question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! or else she'll think we're "hounding her"

[Young]

You won't be able to influence me and millions of TRUE Christians. I can't explain that feeling to you. Believe it or not its up to you :)

Fine, let's rephrase the question since you said you're not a 'blind follower.' What would it take to make you lose your faith?

Surely someone who's not a blind follower will have a definite answer.

[marczeman]

That's a funny question. I love it. :P

Seriously, I never thought about that. I was raised Catholic but I am not a blind follower. I do read Quran and other teachings, yet I don't believe in any of them except Jesus. I don't want to be forced into "your religion" either. You know la. If you really believe in your God, you won't be influenced by peer pressure or whatsover.

Shuwen do you have a boyfriend?

Oops sorry I didn't see the serious stuff lol..

[Young]

Jesus!

The meaning of the name Christian is 'Follower of Christ'. We have been raised up to a new life in Christ that accompanies us to eternity. That's true.

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.” - John 3:16

Have you ever wondered why Christian missionaries are willing to go off their way to a place where hunger, war or whatsover strikes?

“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” - Romans 5:1


So nothing could possibly shake your belief in Christianity? Not even proving that Jesus didn't exist?

[marczeman]

U thought I'm alone here in America? Hahaha!

I probably shouldn't answer that question...:amuse

[plawks]

Hey shuwen, since you're in the US, and also a fervent Christian, wanna ask you something. What is your opinion on Chick-fil-A appreciation day?

[marczeman]

And so we descend....

[henry_yew]

Hey shuwen, since you're in the US, and also a fervent Christian, wanna ask you something. What is your opinion on Chick-fil-A appreciation day?

Ohhh... the notorious Chick-Fil-A day that was held yesterday?

Well, look what happened!

http://media.salon.com/2012/08/AP827671070329-460x307.jpg

Beautiful, ain't it?

So nothing could possibly shake your belief in Christianity? Not even proving that Jesus didn't exist?

Don't do it, Young. Me is a weak and meek figure! No! Stop! WARGH!!!

:P

[Nicholasng925]

So nothing could possibly shake your belief in Christianity? Not even proving that Jesus didn't exist?

Good luck in your attempt to prove it. :)

This is ridiculous circular reasoning.

Homosexuality is wrong because the Bible says so. Why does the Bible say homosexuality is wrong? Because homosexuality is wrong.

There is just no way to break that cycle. It makes absolute no sense from a logical point of view.

And you seem to think that EVERYBODY ubiquitously believes that homosexuality is wrong. Not everyone on Earth is a Christian fundamentalist, Shuwen. There are MANY Christians who disagree with that line of thought. Just ask Obama.

I believe you know perfectly well whether homosexuality is right or wrong depends on your point of view. From the liberal way and 'logical' point of view, it can be right. I mean, everything can be right depending on your perception. No offence to Dominic, but a person who uphold some certain perceptions/principles will definitely stand for their beliefs and rights, for instance homosexuality.

In Christianity, many events that happened in the Bible are inexplicable even by the modern science and common sense. So it's forseeable that Bible will, at many points, raise many doubts and questions to people who tend to deal with problems logically and objectively. We don't judge solely because the Bible says so. It's true that the Bible was written by many men anointed by God and it is correct in ways that could be seen unfathomable for men, for God's ways and thoughts are always greater than men.

Homosexuality is wrong because the Bible says so. Why does the Bible say homosexuality is wrong? Because homosexuality is wrong.

Nope, this shouldn't be the answer. In fact you are not even in the position of answering the question since you are not a Christian, I presume? What the Bible truly says, will require Christian to pray for the scriptures that he/she has just read, for God and the Holy Spirit to move and reveal to the person. We don't say something is wrong only because the Bible says so, but we say something is wrong for reason.

This is my own personal answer. Homosexuality is wrong because it does not fulfill the primary objective of procreation, neither does it please God. As what Christianity upholds, God created the world in such a perfect manner because He loves all of us. God created man and woman, apart from creating a soulmate for Adam (the first man created), also for the reproduction purpose.

Homosexuality concerns of two individuals of the same gender to have relationship and fight for the right to be accepted by the society. Fighting for homosexuality in a liberal society doesn't seem wrong, as both individuals enjoy each other's company and are happy with each other's presence, but it doesn't fulfill the the natural ends of the human sexuality.

I'd be really amazed at her trolling skills if the mods decide to lock this thread, a thread where you can write almost anything under the sun.

By the way, nobody celebrated the 3000th post mark? Poor Boyz... I'll throw some confetti for him :confetti

LOL! Congrats Boyz_Zoo! :confetti

There are many interpretations of the bible. Stop thinking that only yours is right. There are other christians/bishops/clerics who interpret the bible differently.

By the way, you missed my point yet again. I'm not gay because I enjoy sex with guys, I'm gay because I fall in love with men. And sex with animals isn't consensual, it's a one-sided thing, meant to pleasure only the person.

I think I've explained well enough above. True enough, there are many different Bible interpretations by different people. This is because God has different plans for different persons, and to shed light on people based on their own respective circumstances. The interpretations of Bible verses are personal and shall not be done in the basis of self-centeredness; it is done based on our conviction to God.

Fall in love with men? Interesting. May I ask you a few questions, out of curiousity.

1) What is your definition of 'love'? :huh

2) What are the criteria that a man shall fulfill, for you to fall in love with him?

3) Have you truly loved someone, except your parents?

4) What has/have caused you to no longer love the guy that you used to love, if any?

5) Are you in a relationship now? If not, do you love any of your guy friends now? Does he know about it, if any?

[henry_yew]

Shouldn't this kind of discussion more apt at the Dominic's LGBT thread, Nicholasng925?

[Dominic]

Why so immoral, Dominic? Insaf laaaaaaaaa :P

Ah, my immoral soul! How could I ever forgive myself? :cry


Yeah lah, Dom (I wonder if anyone actually called you Dom - if not, I'll be the first :P), kenapa tak moral? Taubat la......

Haha, you're not the first. But then again.....the Moral lessons I had in high school must have failed me...damn, all that time spent memorizing the 36 'nilai-nilai moral', and none of them have any effect on me...

[eve88]

Hm. If the primary objective of human sexuality is to ... make babies, then presumably any form of increased fertility (including IVF) should be accepted and encouraged - which brings me to : If a homosexual couple decide to bring up a child together (by however means), that would fulfill the aim of procreation.

[Dominic]

1) What is your definition of 'love'? :huh

2) What are the criteria that a man shall fulfill, for you to fall in love with him?

3) Have you truly loved someone, except your parents?

4) What has/have caused you to no longer love the guy that you used to love, if any?

5) Are you in a relationship now? If not, do you love any of your guy friends now? Does he know about it, if any?

1. Love: Caring a lot more for someone than you would normally do. Do something mundane like washing the dishes and wishing he could be there doing it with you. Missing him when you're not together. Wanting to share the things that happened to you during the day. Feeling like you could share everything and anything at all. Looking at him and just feeling yourself melt at the smile on his face. Holding him and never wanting to let go. Cuddling in bed, having your arms around each other; the best feeling in the world. Making love instead of having sex, an emotional journey instead of a mere physical one (one of the reasons why I won't sleep with someone I don't feel deeply for).

2. He needs to gain my full trust first, which isn't easy. Other things are probably the same as you would expect for anyone else.

3. Yes (well, other than my sister and nephew, that is)

4. I am a monogamous guy, always have been and always will be. He is polygamous, and I thought I could handle it at first, but then I couldn't. So we decided to just be friends. I've largely gotten over him, considering it's been more than 6 months, but there's still some feelings left, which will probably always be there. He is one amazing guy, and the first man I ever loved.

5. Nope, I'm not in a relationship now. Would love to, but not going to force it to happen. And why would I 'love' any of my guy friends? As friends, maybe, but romantically and sexually, no. You don't fall in love with someone that easily. It takes time. Feelings you develop overnight are more of a crush than anything else. I have some very close friends here, all of whom know I'm gay, and none of them care. We just behave as normal friends would, without sexuality factoring into the equation.

NOTE: I get the impression that you think falling in love as a gay man is different from falling in love as a straight man. There is no difference. We feel exactly the same way you do when we fall in love. It's not all about sex. If it was, no one would want to be in a relationship, or get married. Everyone would just spend the rest of their lives having sex with as many people as possible.


This is my own personal answer. Homosexuality is wrong because it does not fulfill the primary objective of procreation, neither does it please God. As what Christianity upholds, God created the world in such a perfect manner because He loves all of us. God created man and woman, apart from creating a soulmate for Adam (the first man created), also for the reproduction purpose.

Homosexuality concerns of two individuals of the same gender to have relationship and fight for the right to be accepted by the society. Fighting for homosexuality in a liberal society doesn't seem wrong, as both individuals enjoy each other's company and are happy with each other's presence, but it doesn't fulfill the the natural ends of the human sexuality.


I don't get the obsession with procreation. The world is overpopulated as it is, and yet we still want to bring more children into it. At a point in time, yes, the world needed more inhabitants, but now, with forests being rapidly destroyed to make way for homes/towns etc, cities being filled to capacity, there really isn't a solid reason to want to create more kids. And then there's the matter of all the children in orphanages, all of whom have to grow up in an austere atmosphere, without loving parents. Many gay couples I know would love to adopt some of these kids and give them a better life in a loving family, but they can't. Why? Because the law is incredibly biased towards Christianity/Islam.

If anything that doesn't lead to procreation is wrong, then masturbation would be wrong. Oral sex would be wrong. Deciding not to get married would be wrong. Not wanting to have kids would be wrong. But the thing is, you can't stop people from doing any of the above. you can't force someone to stop masturbating, or a couple to stop having oral sex, or forcing two people into marriage just so they could procreate. You don't walk into homes and tell people they MUST have kids. You don't create laws and hold protests about them. The same applies to homosexuality. What you believe is what you believe, but at the end of the day, no one should force their beliefs down another person's throat. And supporting laws that prevent gay couples from being together and getting married is an expression of your religion, to others who have nothing to do with it. A friend of mine put it aptly, "If you as a Christian disagree with homosexuality, then don't let them get married in churches. That's it. But don't make laws preventing them from getting married just because it's against your beliefs, because it is wrong to force your beliefs on someone."

Lastly, it's not simply an 'enjoyment of each other's company' or 'happiness
at each other's presence'. Those two qualities would not make two people want to stay together for the rest of their lives. It's a lot more than that. a relationship starts with love, but only two people who really want to be together can make it work all the way to the end.

Ohhh... the notorious Chick-Fil-A day that was held yesterday?

Well, look what happened!

http://media.salon.com/2012/08/AP827671070329-460x307.jpg

Beautiful, ain't it?


Here's more (sorry for the extra large image size):

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/417456_10151017354667825_1515519127_n.jpg

[vseehua]

Don't turn this thread into yet another discussion about whether LGBT is legal/permitted/allowed thread.

[Young]

Good luck in your attempt to prove it. :)

Well, I had a crack at proving the falsifiability of the Bible and despite reposting that post multiple times, none of those concerns have been defended?

http://www.recom.org/forum/showpost.php?p=398354&postcount=74

I mean, everything can be right depending on your perception. No offence to Dominic, but a person who uphold some certain perceptions/principles will definitely stand for their beliefs and rights, for instance homosexuality.

Disagree. That gives any form of belief too much liberty to indulge in matters of their own faith, which is a dangerous precedent. If anything can be right depending on perception and that we should defend our beliefs no matter what, that pretty much makes anything done under the name of religion permissible. Which of course, you and I know is a very scary prospect.

In Christianity, many events that happened in the Bible are inexplicable even by the modern science and common sense. So it's forseeable that Bible will, at many points, raise many doubts and questions to people who tend to deal with problems logically and objectively. We don't judge solely because the Bible says so. It's true that the Bible was written by many men anointed by God and it is correct in ways that could be seen unfathomable for men, for God's ways and thoughts are always greater than men.

Hmm, so is the Bible infallible?

Nope, this shouldn't be the answer. In fact you are not even in the position of answering the question since you are not a Christian, I presume? What the Bible truly says, will require Christian to pray for the scriptures that he/she has just read, for God and the Holy Spirit to move and reveal to the person. We don't say something is wrong only because the Bible says so, but we say something is wrong for reason.

Strongly disagree to the first phrase in bold. I do not need to be part of a faith to comment on matters of that faith. A valid concern is a valid concern regardless.

Also, if Christians don't say something is wrong because the Bible says so and do it on reason, why even bother using the Bible as a source? Why not just use... reason? It seems like you're admitting that the Bible needs to be taken with a HUGE pinch of salt and that a lot of the messages derived require copious amounts of value judgement.

This is my own personal answer. Homosexuality is wrong because it does not fulfill the primary objective of procreation, neither does it please God. As what Christianity upholds, God created the world in such a perfect manner because He loves all of us. God created man and woman, apart from creating a soulmate for Adam (the first man created), also for the reproduction purpose.

See post by Dominic.

http://www.recom.org/forum/showpost.php?p=398207&postcount=28

He makes a very strong case about how God isn't too fussed by homosexuality and how many other things 'do not please God.'


Homosexuality concerns of two individuals of the same gender to have relationship and fight for the right to be accepted by the society. Fighting for homosexuality in a liberal society doesn't seem wrong, as both individuals enjoy each other's company and are happy with each other's presence, but it doesn't fulfill the the natural ends of the human sexuality.

Homosexuality is extremely pervasive in the animal kingdom. Literally thousands of animal species exhibit homosexual behaviour for a number of complex interpersonal and social reasons. If homosexuality is not 'natural', it would have died out thousands of years ago. The Bible does not define what is natural or not. Science does.

Don't turn this thread into yet another discussion about whether LGBT is legal/permitted/allowed thread.

Why not? This is such an expansive topic that touches on so many religious, scientific and social issues- it will veer off topic in a heartbeat if done in the old LGBT thread so this is probably the safest place to conducted a discussion as long as it is within boundaries and reasonable? Which, of course, we will try to be. I don't think Nicholasng925 is as big of a troll as Shuwen.

[henry_yew]

Don't turn this thread into yet another discussion about whether LGBT is legal/permitted/allowed thread.


Why not? This is such an expansive topic that touches on so many religious, scientific and social issues- it will veer off topic in a heartbeat if done in the old LGBT thread so this is probably the safest place to conducted a discussion as long as it is within boundaries and reasonable? Which, of course, we will try to be. I don't think Nicholasng925 is as big of a troll as Shuwen.

Though it is an expansive topic, this is not the thread to do it. We have appropriate threads for appropriate topics so that we don't end up cluttering the forum.

As far as "within boundaries and reasonable" is concerned, don't just "try to be". Think before you write. Don't write, then think.

Consider this a stern warning - I don't care whether your arguments are sound or not, but none of us mods are going to tolerate with lack of diplomacy, lack of courtesy and blatant disregard of rules. As far as I am concerned, if I catch anyone wreaking havoc and a second/third/etc. person reacts negatively such that it only makes matters worse, I'm going to take action against the person perpetrating the menace, and also against the person(s) making the matter worse.

In short:



No flaming
No calling of names
Be courteous at all times
Be responsible with your words

You always have the option to just walk away when you feel that you can't contain your negative emotions any longer.

Edit: I should make it clear that this applies to every ReCom user.

[ayjiahui]

Don't turn this thread into yet another discussion about whether LGBT is legal/permitted/allowed thread.

uhh, don't you think you guys are a being a little bit too strict? i mean, sometimes you enforce certain rules more strictly than others. and this is coming from the point of view that this LGBT discussion isn't even harmful to anyone and, in fact, people are discussing this quite happily here.

and isn't that the point of a forum? to discuss things happily? not to enforce rules and contain things in certain threads?

[COLOR=olive]
You [B]always have the option to just walk away when you feel that you can't contain your negative emotions any longer.

Edit: I should make it clear that this applies to every ReCom user.

i know all the mods are in the favor of walking away. and maybe, in an ideal world, this would be easy to do. but let's get real for a second. you can't exactly control everyone to walk away all at once. too many variables, too many people. so, you know what, it's NEVER going to work.

i know the mods are always talking about walking away but geez this is a forum. at this point, this selective enforcement thing is really killing the spirit of the forum.

frankly, you guys have tolerated shuwen on so many levels. not only does she NOT learn, she does the same things repeatedly, after multiple thread locks, and after being banned.

so, my question to the mods is this- are you guys going to leave this situation and *hope* it dies a natural death?

[ApriliaGuy]

and isn't that the point of a forum? to discuss things happily? not to enforce rules and contain things in certain threads?

Well, if you've visited the GameFAQs board before... worst moderation system ever; mods more trigger-happy than the Israeli military

[marczeman]

Consider this a stern warning - I don't care whether your arguments are sound or not, but none of us mods are going to tolerate with lack of diplomacy, lack of courtesy and blatant disregard of rules.

In short:



No flaming
No calling of names
Be courteous at all times
Be responsible with your words




I really don't know if we're reading the same thread here any more. I see none of this going on anywhere. Some exchanges have a more serious tone than others, as can be expected, but everyone's remaining completely civil.
Just saying lol.

[henry_yew]

All right. I don't proclaim to speak for the team, but here's what I have to say, and I hope I don't have to say this anymore.

In the past, there had been many incidents where tempers flared, discussions went out of topic, names were called and people started flaming one another. Warnings were issued, bans were imposed, threads were locked (and reopened, and in some circumstances, locked again) and the mods also had to debate among themselves about the actions taken.

We try to keep the forum in control as much as we can, and the rules are there to ensure that forum users see some form of civility, order and courtesy in here.

We (or at least, I) do not like banning anybody - giving out warnings is very much preferred, and we hope that you would take those warnings seriously. We believe in giving second chances (except to blatant spammers and spambots which will be eliminated on sight), and if you don't commit the same offence again, you're pretty much in the clear.

Now, in the past, as I said, discussions went out of topic, tempers flared and some users got overwhelmed by their emotions. Names were called, and quite a few specifically wanted shuwenteo to be banned.

But shuwenteo wasn't the only problem. The fact is that some forum users exacerbated the situation by responding negatively - with one user even stating that there is no point standing on a moral high ground - and then it became a tit-for-tat activity, with shuwenteo lashing out at other users, and other users lashing back. Some of us mods (especially those with cooler heads) saw personal attacks being bounced back and forth.

So what do we do? Shuwenteo is not well liked at this point, and she seemed to be the source for the mess that we were in, but the users who worsened the situation were also equally guilty for playing the game. If we were going to ban one, we would also have to ban the other(s).

Therefore, without anyone being banned, it was thought best that everyone be given a second chance and that we all start from a clean ground. However, some users apparently still bear a grudge against shuwenteo (which, I concede, that you have the right to personally bear), and started to post rather sarcastic responses in some of shuwenteo's threads which would potentially elicit another form of trouble.

This does not help the moderators. The best way to help the mods build a case is to report an offensive post, or one that violates the rules. To lash back at the perpetrator is a very poor way of getting your hopes fulfilled; it only helps to build a case against you.

I agree with ayjiahui that there are too many variables, too many people for the "walk away" concept to be effective. But, consider this - it's almost always the same users who play the same game. I appreciate that some of you take the time to post well-researched replies (and for the record, I approve of such replies), but when an individual insists on not engaging with you on a constructive level, you are not obliged to continue. The problem surfaces when one obliges with that individual and starts to let their emotions consume themselves.

The fact is that going out of topic is not an offence that warrants a ban according to the rules (at least, not now - but it's not prudent to believe that we are not considering it). It's irritating, I know, but the least we could do is to try to bring the topic back to its course, and the most we could do is to clean up the thread (like what vseehua did).

Whenever something goes out of hand, the mods would come together to evaluate the situation. I concede that the forum rules are not perfect - no law ever is. There are bound to be loopholes somewhere, and we are not happy about people taking advantage of the loopholes all the time as well, therefore we come together and discuss some of these issues to determine whether we have a strong ground to remove a user from ReCom. Often, we end up with a similar "ban one, ban all" situation.

None of us mods are complaining, but we hope that you can understand that our job isn't easy. When something doesn't happen, we are accused of not doing our job. However, if and when we do take action against somebody, we risk being accused to be not objective and not impartial. We want to be fair, we have to consider all factors and we want to play by the rules. Otherwise, it will be a free-for-all.

The point is that we have to reflect on our actions and acknowledge that at some point of time, we contributed to a mess. It doesn't matter who started it - the perpetrator and the people who may inadvertently join in the game are just as guilty for contributing to the mess. And just as recent as a few days ago, an inflammatory post against shuwenteo was reported. See, this kind of behaviour doesn't help the mods - it only aggravates matters.

I'm not saying that shuwenteo is in the right, or that she's an angel. No, not at all. But for those of you who have a personal resentment against her, openly treating her with ill will and lack of diplomacy in ReCom does not motivate us mods to take action against her (the inflammatory post being the case).

We want you to discuss and debate matters, and we are only too happy to see ideas and opinions being thrown in and out. Personally, I am immensely impressed by the level of wisdom that many of you have portrayed. I am convinced that many of you are so much wiser than I am. Many of you have the capability to find loopholes that I have to analyze things and word my sentences so carefully and so meticulously (yet you can still find loopholes). I commend you for your ability to think critically.

Having said that, if somebody doesn't play by the rules, surely you'd know better than to engage in the same game.

We are not trying to kill the spirit of the forum. We are trying to have a control over a situation before they go haywire.

[eve88]

Shameless attempt at a de-re-rail...

Who's going for post #4000 this time? only900+ odd to go...

[Nicholasng925]

Shameless attempt at a de-re-rail...

Who's going for post #4000 this time? only900+ odd to go...

ME!!! Hahaha! :P

[youngyew]

There seems to have been some queries about what our rules really are, and what constitutes a "ban-able" offence.

As Henry mentioned in the post above, while we do have some forum guidelines, those guidelines are not written by lawyers and understandably there are some loopholes and grey areas. Regardless, the general spirit has been that we DO NOT ban people just because they hold opinions that are in contrary to the popular belief, act in an annoying way, or do not engage in a debate in a fruitful way. In our almost 10-year history we have only banned spammers and people who have blatantly launched assault at others (e.g. one member was banned for saying something along the line of "I could kill you" in quite a serious way).

The other thing is, while we have been relatively lenient in recent months, we do not even allow members to discuss each other - calling member X " an idiot", "a troll" etc or even plain "arrogant" is frowned upon as it goes against the general spirit of the forum being a place for discussing idea but not people.

So, going by the above, I hope you guys understand that we have been put in a spot. Yes you can claim that shuwenteo has been using negative tactics or "trolling" in the threads, and her posting habits and styles has choked some bone of contention to lots of people. But if she is to be banned for these "offence", then ayjiahui, young etc are NOT immune to penalty for their counter-trolling behaviours. Yes you guys have been more proactive in contributing well-researched information compared to shuwenteo, and that deserves some applause, but that still doesn't give you guys the right to engage in the same behaviour you are blaming shuwenteo of. You should know that two wrongs don't make a right, and "but mum she started it first" is essentially a puerile excuse.

At the end of the day, at various points shuwenteo has indeed almost broached our tolerance limit of banning, but the fact that some other people have been engaging in tit-for-tat banter makes it difficult for us to enforce it. You think you are the "good guy" and so should get off scot-free for personal attacks, and while it's easy for sympathetic moderators to just punish the "bad guy", to do so would have been in violation of the fair-play spirit of our forum.

Don't forget, you are a slave to your emotion when you get yourself into this (which I believe is becoming the case for many people here):

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

[youngyew]

Don't forget, you are a slave to your emotion when you get yourself into this (which I believe is becoming the case for many people here):

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

[Boyz_Zoo]

Shameless attempt at a de-re-rail...

Who's going for post #4000 this time? only900+ odd to go...
me me me!!!


Haiz, I ws out for vacation for a few days. A lot of things has happened n i ws shocked 2 c shuwenteo deleted her posts after tat.

[Nicholas92]

Oh wow...I didn't even notice her posts were gone. Cool.

[Boyz_Zoo]

Oh wow...I didn't even notice her posts were gone. Cool.
yup, she herself deleted them. It's a 1st time tat she ever did tat.

[Dominic]

yup, she herself deleted them. It's a 1st time tat she ever did tat.

I never noticed that either. Wonder what happened.

[Nicholas92]

I never noticed that either. Wonder what happened.

1. Epiphany
2. Withdrawal

With one probably more likely than the other. But wait, how do we even delete our own posts? (blurface)

[Boyz_Zoo]

1. Epiphany
2. Withdrawal

With one probably more likely than the other. But wait, how do we even delete our own posts? (blurface)
click "edit" n thn u'll hv d "delete". However, it's nt really deleted. It's actly hidden as d mods cn still c them.

[henry_yew]

No we can't. Says who that we can?

*smacks BZ* :modsmack

[Boyz_Zoo]

No we can't. Says who that we can?

*smacks BZ* :modsmack
cause I cn for this particular forum. I cn see them n hv the option 2 undelete them.

U probably cn't for this forum since u r d main forum moderator bt d admins cn.

[Nicholasng925]

Don't forget, you are a slave to your emotion when you get yourself into this (which I believe is becoming the case for many people here):

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

That's why I withdrew myself from the discussion. I have better stuffs to do. :)

[ayjiahui]

thank you moderators for recognizing that i have been part of the counter-trolling.

and yes i recognize the tough situation that you guys are in. which is why i am still going to argue my case.

now the big assumption is that i want to be given "selective treatment". that i *only* want shuwen to get banned. of course not! i fully recognized that i have been up to no good and in fact, i have openly said that i am alright if i get banned (either in the bersih thread or the local grads thread).

with that said, why would i resort to doing/saying such things?

because it appears to me that things were not effective. the mentality of letting shuwen just died a natural death did not seem possible at all. the only times where she disappeared was when we out-trolled her. and, therefore, balance restored. so very frankly, it seemed like this is the only way to get her to leave and to get onto proper discourse.

of the bans and the warnings that were issued, how many actually worked? did she change in the way we wanted her to, in accordance to forum rules?

the issue at hand is more about the repeated offenses, despite multiple warnings. sure, you can choose to give her second chances but how many of them actually worked?

so why suggest a complete ban? well, like i said before - it's never going to end, simply because there are too many variables. and yes, it is getting tiring to make her leave via countertrolling.

so if the moderators are really going down the path of letting die a natural death on the grounds that you have:
a) never banned a person on such grounds,
b) discussing a person on threads are against the spirit of the forum;

then,

a) to what end will you let her run a rampage here?
b) it is hypocritical to say this when the so-called "spirit of the forum" you are talking about is already being disrupted by her mannerisms here.

[Boyz_Zoo]

I hv 2 agree with ayjiahui. I wanted to reply 2 shuwenteo posts like wat my comrades did bt I control myself thinking this problem will come 2 end with time. However, time after time, thread after thread, v hv seen tat she hvn't changed much despite her recent apologizes. Furthermore, the discussion became hotter n personal attacks became vry evident.

That's the main reason, I changed the thread's title 2 lure her into HOS. Tat'll help reduced amount of spams tat she causing in ReCom since spamming is "legal" in this particular forum.

Besides that, it enables d ReComers 2 communicate well with 1 another since d debates forum requires us 2 talk about the subject related 2 the topic. That's y i started 2 approach her in HOS, so tat she can truly realise her mistake (which is still an ongoing process)

I hv read their posts thus far and I find that their posts were nt tat "problematic". Sure, thr r times whr certain posts r nt polite bt evry1 behaved better compared 2 d religion's thread n I dun c any1 got so frustrated n posted d 7 reasons 2 ban shuwenteo in this thread.

I hoped tat letting them argue a bit might do them best as shuwenteo is learning. She hv so far apologised twice and for the 1st time, she deleted her own posts.

Vseehua said sometime this situation is like chicken talking 2 a duck. Though this 2 animals my talk in different languages, ducks n chicken seemed 2 b able living well together. Therefore, ppl might hv different opinions bt in the end, they'll learn 2 agree with each other.


Tat bein said, I knw tat u all, mods hv a headache cause of this. Nt matter wat, I respect u all for all the work u hv done. It's nt easy. :)

[marczeman]

No drama, no fun.
Sorry. Hard truth.

[Xon]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

True Story. :nuts

[KenT13]

Anyone staying up till dawn to watch Perseid's show? : D

[Boyz_Zoo]

looks like things hv been so quiet since the end of trolling

[henry_yew]

That allows me to focus on my research. That's a much better use of time.

[marczeman]

That allows me to focus on my research. That's a much better use of time.


What's your research about? Are you a post-grad student?

[nickvl]

looks like things hv been so quiet since the end of trolling

fine then... spam spam! hey siva, how are you doing? are you still in toulouse or back in msia?

[henry_yew]

What's your research about? Are you a post-grad student?

Yes, I'm a postgrad student. I'm researching on this specific tilt tower: http://www.westerntowers.com/storage/images/articles/IMG_6502.9OZN8.jpg

This tower is subjected to wind effects, and it vibrates. So my research deals with monitoring the vibrations and mitigating them.

However, as the tower has not been delivered to my university yet, we can't monitor the vibrations, but we can already think of ways to mitigate them. As of now, I've read lots of papers and identified various types of dampers that would reduce vibrations, now all I have to do is to put them to a small-scale test.

At the end of the day, I hope to be able to produce at least one paper on this research before I graduate.

[Boyz_Zoo]

fine then... spam spam! hey siva, how are you doing? are you still in toulouse or back in msia?

I'm still in msia bt i'm comin bac 2 tlse this wed. Hw's ur summer abroad? :)

[yanno_yamster]

Happy Merdeka everyone! 55th year, woohoo! Let's hope our country's situation gets better...

[nickvl]

I'm still in msia bt i'm comin bac 2 tlse this wed. Hw's ur summer abroad? :)

Half regretting my decision to stay back haha.

[henry_yew]

I regret not visiting places during my summer break, just because I wanted to wait for my research towers to arrive. They never arrived until a week ago. *groan*

[Dominic]

I'll be back in Malaysia during summer. Hooray! :D

[day_dreamer]

iPhone 5 !

Can't wait to try it out in store!

[henry_yew]

But are you going to buy it?

What a shame, M'sia doesn't have 4G LTE yet, or does it?

[Xon]

Don't think so.

Was listening to the Journal Review Presentation today, 3G LTE infrastructure wasn't here yet.

[vseehua]

I really don't think there is merit to deploying LTE networks in Malaysia when the landlines have speeds slower than 3G spec.

[AnnieChan]

wow, since when HOS have gotten so mundane and not-so-fun? haha, what happened to all the regulars? ><

[henry_yew]

They suddenly had life... or maybe we don't.

[eve88]

Exams!!

(goes back to flailing around panicking and *not* studying)

[yanno_yamster]

The regulars became irregular (and that includes me, sadly). Not much new discussions going on so we all end up not visiting here very often. Also, one Recommer had the potential to help revitalise the forum but she ended up becoming a troll. Haiz...

[Dominic]

Busy prepping for my glee club's concert next month. We've been practicing like crazy every week.

[henry_yew]

Glee club concert???

You sing?

[yanno_yamster]

LOL... Henry, what's so surprising? I was also part of my uni choir.

[henry_yew]

I no good singer. :cry

[yanno_yamster]

But you good in musical instruments! :))

[Dominic]

Glee club concert???

You sing?

LOL and dance too! :laugh

[henry_yew]

Settle... Dominic must sing and dance for us one day....

[Dominic]

Settle... Dominic must sing and dance for us one day....

Hahaha, only in a group such as the Glee club! Being a baritone limits the songs I can sing on my own. :P

[eve88]

only if you have a limited range :P

(thats what transposing music is for!)

[Dominic]

only if you have a limited range :P

(thats what transposing music is for!)

What's transposing music? :P

[eve88]

transposing music is singing in at a more suitable key for yourself....... but it does only work if you're soloing :P

in other news.

Objective Structured Clinical Exams (OSCEs) tomorrow.
10 stations x 7 minutes per question

... assessing everything from the last 5 years. yay.

[Will go back to not-panicking-and-not-being-paranoid now]

[eve88]

double posting : I PASSED!!

(is anyone in the UK, at all? - here for my elective for the next 2 months)

[Dominic]

double posting : I PASSED!!

(is anyone in the UK, at all? - here for my elective for the next 2 months)

Wait, you're in the UK ALREADY? That's fast!

On another note, I'm heading back to Malaysia in a couple of days. Pretty sure I'm going to burn after the cold weather here. :cry

[eve88]

yeah, i left the afternoon results came out :D

time to randomly pick museums and tourist attractions!!

[Nicholasng925]

double posting : I PASSED!!

(is anyone in the UK, at all? - here for my elective for the next 2 months)

Hello! I'm currently in the UK! London, to be exact. :laugh

[day_dreamer]

hello any mac users here?

[vseehua]

hello any mac users here?
*raises hand* Best machines that I've ever used!

[day_dreamer]

*raises hand* Best machines that I've ever used!

Haha I just made the jump last week from PC! Mountain Lion is seriously the hottest OS ever.

Ask you ah? How you install pirated copies of Windows on a Mac? Need it for some games :j

[KenT13]

Here I am again!!! 4 days before stpm :O lolz

[vseehua]

Haha I just made the jump last week from PC! Mountain Lion is seriously the hottest OS ever.

Ask you ah? How you install pirated copies of Windows on a Mac? Need it for some games :j
You know we are not allowed to discuss this openly. If you have a legitimate copy of Windows, use the Bootcamp program which comes with the Mac.

[day_dreamer]

You know we are not allowed to discuss this openly. If you have a legitimate copy of Windows, use the Bootcamp program which comes with the Mac.

woops sorry HAHA. yeah sure. Bootcamp then. Hope that the copy of Win7 that comes with my old Dell Studio 1555 works!

[eve88]

pfft i just left london. But i MAY be going over for xmas depending on wheter my brother has leave over that period...

[lambogreeny]

1st post in HOS VI in 2013!! Hehe...

Just wanna say HI EVERYONE!!!... Wherever you are....

Ahh..　How I miss the old times in Recom. T_T

[Boyz_Zoo]

new year means new spammers. hehe

[Nicholasng925]

new year means new spammers. hehe

I see no potential newbie?! :huh

[Dominic]

I see no potential newbie?! :huh

We are a dying breed. :cry

[Boyz_Zoo]

I see no potential newbie?! :huh

We are a dying breed. :cry
chill man, they'll come. :)

[Dominic]

Gong Xi Fa Cai! :D

[starlover]

chill man, they'll come. :)

Seems empty to me.. :nuts

:(

p/s: Happy Chinese New Year.

[henry_yew]

I'm here, I'm here.

[Nicholasng925]

I'm here, I'm here.

Ah! Oldies are all here, but mana newbies? :oh

[Dominic]

We scared them away, perhaps?

[day_dreamer]

newbies are yolo-ing for scholarships.. only few of us oldies here. EMO MAX.

BTW any oldies here hitting big 30 soon? I'm sure chenchow iQing those dudes should be hitting great 30 soon =)

[Dominic]

I'm finally reaching adulthood next month. Not sure if that counts as something. :-P

[day_dreamer]

I'm finally reaching adulthood next month. Not sure if that counts as something. :-P

Good la! Legal age to watch porn already. My friend's 18 yrs old birthday his father bought him a Japanese AV magazine from Japan for him!

[Dominic]

Good la! Legal age to watch porn already. My friend's 18 yrs old birthday his father bought him a Japanese AV magazine from Japan for him!

LOL! If my dad actually bought me a porn magazine, I'd probably run away screaming. :nuts

[day_dreamer]

LOL! If my dad actually bought me a porn magazine, I'd probably run away screaming. :nuts

I tot you'll run to your room and fa* away lol ok this is too much for recom

[Dominic]

I tot you'll run to your room and fa* away lol ok this is too much for recom

Nah, I doubt my dad even knows where he can get a gay porn magazine. :laugh

[day_dreamer]

Nah, I doubt my dad even knows where he can get a gay porn magazine. :laugh

HAHAHA. OKAY now the Rainbow Penguin explains a lot of things! GO PRIDE!

[henry_yew]

Pffftt.... magazines are like so yesterday for porn, aren't they? You get real-life moving action in the Internet so easily. So much more excitement!

[day_dreamer]

Pffftt.... magazines are like so yesterday for porn, aren't they? You get real-life moving action in the Internet so easily. So much more excitement!

But magazines are great sources of non-nude porn! (is that even porn? I don't know HAHA)

[eve88]

Bump!

(also, romance novels >>> porn.)

[Dominic]

Bump!

(also, romance novels >>> porn.)

I still prefer the non-erotica ones, where they skip all the detailed descriptions of sex. Personally, I find those more romantic than if the characters kept having 5 pages worth of sex every chapter. :-P

But magazines are great sources of non-nude porn! (is that even porn? I don't know HAHA)

That depends on how powerful your imagination is, I guess. :nuts

[Dominic]

I can get married in New Zealand now! Hell yeah!

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10878200

[Boyz_Zoo]

I can get married in New Zealand now! Hell yeah!

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10878200

less one to guy to compete with. hahaha

[nemosmknimh]

Annyeong!!!
Anyone recognise me still?!
Just dropping by~
Swooosshhh...

[youngyew]

I can't believe that no one is talking politics here!

[Boyz_Zoo]

I can't believe that no one is talking politics here!
well, thr's no 1 to talk to.
So, let's start now.

How ws ur interview at msia kini?

Annyeong!!!
Anyone recognise me still?!
Just dropping by~
Swooosshhh...
hey hey hey, nemo. I know who u r. ;)

[eve88]

talk politics in a spam thread?

hm.

O.o Doctors at malaysiakini... interesting...

[youngyew]

OMG why are you stalking me? I thought I did okay though the uhms do get a bit distracting lol

talk politics in a spam thread?

hm.

O.o Doctors at malaysiakini... interesting...
LOL what's with the plural?

[plawks]

At times like this we need shuwen.

[youngyew]

Okay let me unban her.

[Dominic]

Annyeong!!!
Anyone recognise me still?!
Just dropping by~
Swooosshhh...

hello! :laugh

[henry_yew]

Okay let me unban her.

Seriously?! :notrust

[KenT13]

Isn't that a good idea? (seriously)

[henry_yew]

Well.... :(

I really could do with more peace.

[plawks]

ReCom is kinda too quiet without her don't you all think? :P

This is it Malaysia. Good luck ;_;

[nickvl]

wow not one thread dedicated to the elections. I can't believe our old friend didn't register under some fake account and idk, do what she does best.

[Dominic]

So has everyone voted?

[KenT13]

I don't think so. I just went out for lunch and I see many eligible voters (judging from their age) with clean fingers. Hopefully they'll go to vote after lunch.

[nickvl]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH
is anyone hyperventilating? The suspense is killing me.

[plawks]

Lather, rinse and repeat.

[eve88]

Thinking of posting a gerrymandering 101 thread. Not sure if im hardworking enough. On another note, no didnt vote, by the time i thought of it they announced the oh btw if u wanted to postal vote you needed to register in or before 2012 thing.

Old typo, doctors was supposed to be doctor's in my last post :P

[Nicholas92]

Oh man I kept waiting for a GE13 thread to show up, had no idea people were talking about it here!

So, what did everyone do! Did anyone vote? Volunteer? Polling agent? Campaign?

I couldn't vote this time around :(

So I volunteered as a polling agent at the High Comm in London instead. And on Sunday our society here did a results viewing party. Atmosphere was great, then... you know what happened. Lol.

[nickvl]

Yeah I voted...probably spent the equivalent of a cheap AirAsia ticket to get to the consulate in the next state but it was alright.

Oh btw, did they have indelible ink in London?

[Nicholas92]

Nope, no indelible ink in London. In fact I think there was no indelible ink used in postal voting this time around, supposedly because the numbers were too small.

[vseehua]

Now we can play politics as well: http://ap.ign.com/en/review/6041/politiko-the-card-game-of-malaysian-politics-review?mobile=1

[youngyew]

Thinking of posting a gerrymandering 101 thread

One of the best videos on gerrymandering I have ever come across:

Mky11UJb9AY

[Nicholas92]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/395717_10151461361423802_222803815_n.jpg

And the best illustration of gerrymandering, in one pic. Really drives home exactly how it impacts the distribution of seats, especially when you compare is to the popular vote share.

BTW, for anyone interested in working with data and stuff (to do with the election), check out this Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/641535625862722/