*Official* Anwar Ibrahim Talk.

[masterof_none]

Just want to share to news: Anwar is Free.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3619790.stm

Any Opinion? or Analysis?

Moderators Edit: Topic changed, Anything that has to do with the Recent Release of Anwar Ibrahim should go here.

Edited by: ThirdShifter

[jiinjoo]

Ah, as expected (by me I mean).

Reformasi again?


I think the world still cares about his welfare and the development of this drama. So far, 72 newspapers polled by Google has the same report. CNN has an exclusive page on him http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/09/01/anwar.timeline/ and all Malaysia newspapers are experiencing serious load problems and slow again.

[__earth]

I hope Anwar will find a way to strengthen the opposition for the sake of democracy.

[qedx]

reformasi? nah i think not. the flame has died out. the first thing he should do is get his back operated on.

[jiinjoo]

You think he'll still go back to Keadilan? Can it be possible that he rejoins UMNO?

[qedx]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=516&ncid=731&e=3&u=/ap/20040902/ap_on_re_as/malaysia_anwar[/url]] The verdict followed rumors of behind-the-scenes dealings that Anwar would be freed in exchange for keeping a low profile and temporarily going to Germany
heh if this is true then he won't be joining politics anytime soon. hmm i'd like to see him go visit mahathir. that would be kinda fun.

EDIT: typo

finally, some judiciary independence! :)

[qedx]

CNN reports that he is "banned from politics for at least 5 years". so much for strengthening the opposition

[kucingbiru]

PROBABLY, that kind of verdict is only possible without mahathir in power.

[jiinjoo]

Well... that's what Anwar thinks (as reported on Malaysiakini). The first few things he said when he was told the news, he thanked Pak Lah for not interfering with the judiciary process, unlike Mahathir. And then he brushed away all claims that there's any under the table agreement with Pak Lah. What do you think?

[qedx]

lmao. malaysiakini is getting hammered

[pandaboy]

No wonder I have to wait so long to access The Star online...
Hot news.... :)
Sad to know that he have to spent years in jail for a crime he did not commit. Sorry for my ignorance, but was he guilty of corruption?

[WristBandMan]

Merdeka~!! says Anwar~~

[kelvinlym]

CNN reports that he is "banned from politics for at least 5 years". so much for strengthening the opposition

It is an electoral rule that anyone previously convicted CANNOT hold a position in a political party or be a candidate in an election until at least 5 years after the jail sentence is served.

Under the electoral rules, his previous conviction for corruption will make him ineligible to be a candidate for five years after 2003, the year he finished serving his sentence for graft. He can only contest in 2008 when he is 61.

This is the same as in Lim Guan Eng's case since he was released in 1999, he can only be active in politics on Aug 25 last week.

[qedx]

ah yes. i forgot the appeal for the corruption charge was denied.

but since he is acquitted of sodomy which was the motive for said corruption charge, it does not really make sense does it?

EDIT typo

[misled_youth]

I hope Anwar will find a way to strengthen the opposition for the sake of democracy.

note: don't take this personally bro. It's not against you.

To equate DSAI with democracy is like linking Saddam Hussien with Al-Queda. They are not in the same league, and it is an illusion brought up by people with agenda.

FACT: DSAI was once part and parcel of the entity that condemned and incarcerated him

FACT: DSAI never fought against the 'un-democratic' practice within BN

FACT: DSAI was a one time rebel before joining UMNO and living the UMNOputera dream

This doesn't mean he can't change into a nicer person. But we must be weary of his intentions.

It would therefore be premature to liken Anwar, with democracy.

And to his friends and supporters, Anwar had this to say: ?Wait till I return from my treatment and we shall plan for the future?.

?Once I return from Germany, I will meet all opposition leaders, members of non-governmental organisations and reformasi supporters to plan the future.

?I will also meet with Keadilan leaders to discuss the party?s next move,? he said.

This is what I fear the most from his release. I don't want to even hear about DSAI's version of the future. I don't even dare to imagine what his leadership would be like.

I fear this is nothing but a huge PR excercise by Pak Lah.

If Pak Lah can orchestrate a deal between PAS and UMNO in Kelantan, surely he has no qualms dealing with the devil himself - DSAI.

note: I didn't take pot shots at anyone right? Except DSAI of course. Phantom! What you think! Shall we send a protest note to Pak Lah against the ruling?
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[Thirdshifter]

I have never agreed with his attempt to instigate mass support through his ceramahs and other activities during the crisis.

It was purely to place him in a position of power and although it never got far enough to become a rebellion, it could have gotten out of control. This to me was the height of irresponsibility and clearly demonstrated his inadequacy to be the PM. Anyone who is willing to use others and endanger their lives for his personal benefit is unfit for such a position.

If anyone seriously thinks that the crisis was about righting social wrongs , etc etc and that his ascension to power would have dramatically changed the racial policies/politics in this country, they need to wake up and smell the coffee.

The only good thing that came out of the crisis IMO was the clear and open demonstration to all of the drawbacks of power without restraint and the degree of suppression that exists here.

It certainly seemed to have woken up a lot of people to the fact that injustice and suppression of rights works across racial/economic lines too

[phantom]

well,whatever it is,Mr. Anwar is now one happy man.as much as i agreed with his released,i dread about the coming situations in malaysia.about the turmoil that might take place due to his stalwarts .

pas promised they gonna make his as the PM.who knows he might lead the opposition parties and dream about ruling the nation.in your dream,mr anwar.

[debbie]

No wonder I have to wait so long to access The Star online...
Hot news.... :)
Sad to know that he have to spent years in jail for a crime he did not commit. Sorry for my ignorance, but was he guilty of corruption?

Are you sure? Saying tht he spent yrs in jail for a crime he didn't commit? Do you think tht those whose verdict it was was ignorant? I don't think something like tht would happen in M'sia: being behind bars for a crime not commited.
I hope Anwar picks up on life... it has been difficult for him. Not tht I'm taking sides, but I think every one knows (correct me if I'm wrong) tht Anwar WAS in the wrong. Whtever the outcome, I hope he never makes it PM. If he does... I'll counter attack with RECOM...sounds more of like Parti Revolutionists/Communists thn Reborn Community if it does make it to political status .. don't u think? *laughs* Ok.. kidding, kidding.. sorry.

[pandaboy]

Anything can happen in Malaysia, what makes u think that being behind bars for a crime not commited never happens before in Malaysia?

Anwar was proven innocent by the court already... so am I correct to say that he's not guilty?

[chiunlin]

Anything can happen in Malaysia, what makes u think that being behind bars for a crime not commited never happens before in Malaysia?

Anwar was proven innocent by the court already... so am I correct to say that he's not guilty?

Since you say that anything can happen in Malaysia and that a person might be behind bars for a crime not committed, it is then equally possible that he might have been acquitted from a crime that he had committed.

[pandaboy]

Anything can happen in Malaysia, what makes u think that being behind bars for a crime not commited never happens before in Malaysia?

Anwar was proven innocent by the court already... so am I correct to say that he's not guilty?

Since you say that anything can happen in Malaysia and that a person might be behind bars for a crime not committed, it is then equally possible that he might have been acquitted from a crime that he had committed.

True... So I'm not wrong to say that he's innocent and you're not wrong to say he's guilty.

How can we know the truth? Now this is sad....was he really guilty or not? :?

P/S: I'm not supporting anyone here... I'm neutral :)

[jiinjoo]

Here're more views (the "vanilla kind") from BBC, posted predominantly from Malaysians and people around. You can post too!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/3620668.stm

Some interesting ones (does not necessarily reflect my views):

His freedom should mean more freedom for Malaysians. (Ibroe Alli, Kuching, Malaysia)

Whatever it is, his political career is gone. (Kamarudin, Malaysia)

In short, Mr Anwar Ibrahim should understand that a leader of a Muslim country cannot be opposed using the Western democratic thinking and philosophies. (Abu Musa, Malaysia)

Democracy in Malaysia has moved a step forward and I believe we could all expect great things to come in the future, for a start being increased confidence in Malaysian democracy. (Rizal Hardi, Petaling Jaya, Selangor)

One more step towards true democracy for everyone in Asia. (Josephine Ong, London)
etc. They sound the same. There's a common theme, probably because it is in BBC, i.e. If Anwar is jailed, then we have failed to achieve "true" democracy. If Anwar is released, then we have "succeeded" somehow. A 2-1 vote by the high court represents an attitude towards democracy by 25 million people. Wtf?

Anyway, my views in terms of political career etc. He can still be involved in many grassroots organizations that has a strong lobby (ok, influence...) in the government. He can go back to ABIM, or rather, he old ABIM members anytime to seek a path to power if he so wishes, or he can still work behind the scenes with his wife. When there's a will, there's a way.

But I doubt that's what he wants to do. He probably have a lot more impact just writing books, travelling overseas and meeting people, or do those kind of stuff on his own account.[/list]

[el_empty]

"writing books, travelling around, meeting people... " sounds like activities that might lead to another arrest on whatever charges.

for those skeptical against anwar (and others too), i say we should be questioning the judiciary process instead of his credibility.

questions:

- how independent is the judiciary?
- how partisan is it?
- how relevant is the ISA today now that it is used on an individual instead of 'national security'?
- how *do* you define natural security? who's the threat?
- what about the non-partisanship of the parliament speaker? what do we do about the opposition's prerogative in debating relevant issues?
- what about the role of an interior minister? why should there be any connection between the police force and the government?

... and other questions about the national system as an institution.

[__earth]

I hope Anwar will find a way to strengthen the opposition for the sake of democracy.

note: don't take this personally bro. It's not against you.

To equate DSAI with democracy is like linking Saddam Hussien with Al-Queda. They are not in the same league, and it is an illusion brought up by people with agenda.

FACT: DSAI was once part and parcel of the entity that condemned and incarcerated him

FACT: DSAI never fought against the 'un-democratic' practice within BN

FACT: DSAI was a one time rebel before joining UMNO and living the UMNOputera dream

This doesn't mean he can't change into a nicer person. But we must be weary of his intentions.

It would therefore be premature to liken Anwar, with democracy.


Welcome back. Thought you said g'bye for the last time, the last time you said that.

I am not likening DSAI with democracy. What I mean is, I am hoping with Anwar, BN's supermajority will somehow be reduced from the sake of democracy. The opposition desperately needs a leader to prevent Malaysia from being a one party state.

[SpRInG]

well, watever that is going on, hopefully nothing will be too wrong with Malaysia.... maybe Anwar's going out of the country to get his money.......

[el_empty]

maybe Anwar's going out of the country to get his money.......


ay ay ay we don't know that for sure...

[chiunlin]

Welcome back. Thought you said g'bye for the last time, the last time you said that.

I am not likening DSAI with democracy. What I mean is, I am hoping with Anwar, BN's supermajority will somehow be reduced from the sake of democracy. The opposition desperately needs a leader to prevent Malaysia from being a one party state.
Somehow I don't quite believe that Anwar still has so much political influence. Let's just look at the result of Keadilan in the recent election.
Besides that, though he carries with him the symbol of justice and freedom, I think most of us look at him more with a sympathetic eye(he has been injustly prosecuted, he is very ill,etc) but that alone is not enough for him to qualify as a leader. As Pandaboy has pointed out, we can never be sure that he is guilty or not. However,what I am sure of is that when you are voting for a leader, the leader's character must never be in doubt.

[kucingbiru]

we can never be sure that he is guilty or not.

of course we can't be too sure if he's guilty or not. that's why, we have to assume someone is innocent until proven guilty, in the court of law, beyond any reasonable doubt. so our default position is always "innocent", until proven guilty.

[chenchow]

Anwar was proven innocent by the court already... so am I correct to say that he's not guilty?

Anwar is just acquitted for the current sodomy charges. He has served the full 2/3 of his corruption charges if I am not wrong.

On this issue, I would like to ask whether anyone read the full verdict of this decision.

http://www.kehakiman.gov.my/Homepage%20FC/JUDGMENT/judgment-1/05-6-2003(W)&05-7-2003(W)datinpaduka.htm

http://www.kehakiman.gov.my/Homepage%20FC/JUDGMENT/judgment-1/05-6-2003(W)dato%20hamid.htm


That would give a clearer idea of the whole issue.

[kucingbiru]

i'm in the process of reading it. donno when i'll finish. busy maa. but it should be interesting.

[misled_youth]

"To summarise our judgment, even though reading the appeal record, we find evidence to confirm that the appellants were involved in homosexual activities and we are more inclined to believe that the alleged incident at Tivoli Villa did happen..."
http://www.kehakiman.gov.my/Homepage%20FC/JUDGMENT/judgment-1/05-6-2003(W)dato%20hamid.htm

So before you guys start celebrating, please understand the context of which the judgement was made.

He is gay! How else could one explain ... The MATTRESS! (Anyone knows how much it's worth on Ebay?)

I rather have Hadi Awang than DSAI to lead the opposition. At least Hadi is not gay.

Note: Screw you shifty!
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[kevinkhoo1986]

"To summarise our judgment, even though reading the appeal record, we find evidence to confirm that the appellants were involved in homosexual activities and we are more inclined to believe that the alleged incident at Tivoli Villa did happen..."
http://www.kehakiman.gov.my/Homepage%20FC/JUDGMENT/judgment-1/05-6-2003(W)dato%20hamid.htm

So before you guys start celebrating, please understand the context of which the judgement was made.

He is gay! How else could one explain ... The MATTRESS! (Anyone knows how much it's worth on Ebay?)

I rather have Hadi Awang than DSAI to lead the opposition. At least Hadi is not gay.

Note: Screw you shifty!

What's wrong if Anwar is Gay ? Is that a crime if a man born to be gay? I mean nobody in this world dare to claim himself is 100% perfect. In this case, He can't change his sexual orientation. It is something that he does not want to be too. That's what happening in our society today, we tend to look down those who are not perfectly borned. I don't mind whether Anwar is gay or straight, as long as he can contribute to our nation and society. So why can't we at least give him a chance? :?:

[Thirdshifter]

Gay issues had been discussed over here http://nac01.kinetichost.net/~recom/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=331&sid=1debaa6dec54786dc479440139a2079a

Please continue with Anwar without being technical about Gay and what it is, How about what would a gay leader mean to Malaysian.

[chiunlin]

He is gay! How else could one explain ... The MATTRESS! (Anyone knows how much it's worth on Ebay?)

Err, can you provide us with the link to this priceless matress? I'm sure many of us are curious about its price.

[misled_youth]

I'm soooo sad for all the ReforBASI people (I don't think any of them in ReCom. You guys are too smart).

They don't know:
1. How to read english
2. The law

They only know:

1. Scream reformasi
2. Scream Lawan tetap lawan
3. Kick garbage bin and dip the CI

More damning evidence that the great DSAI is gay

"Are all these consistent with a person who had submitted under fear? We do not think so. Therefore, in our judgment Azizan is an accomplice, though he may be a reluctant one."

This is not a day for celebration. It is a day for sadness.

Tian Chua, Sivarasa, Karpal, Ezam, Azmin, Hadi, all support a gay man who wants to be PM.

Next thin you know, it's constitutional for a homo to be PM, but not a non-bumi.
________
California dispensary (http://california.dispensaries.org/)

[digimushu]

Honestly, considering the conservativeness of M'sia, a gay PM most probably wont be elected by the people. Before we talk about non-bumis being PM, better talk about woman as our PM first.

hrm...seems like the plot is thinkening...yet another unexpected twist! hehehe...I have a theory, but it remains to be seen whether my theory is correct....

[phantom]

How about what would a gay leader mean to Malaysian.

gay marriage perhaps?

well,da-hype,we have discussed well about this matter in the gay link,pls go there and read becoz ur human development book might be written by someone who is too conservative.or someone who didn't do enough research.

perhaps u should take the psychology class or the biological sex class before coming out with that statement.becoz some ppl truly a congenital gay.enough about this gay and non-gay matter.


now that he is not a felon,i will like to refer him as DSAI from mr. anwar.

how could he afford going to germany?who is paying for the operation,the flight ticket,the hospital stay?he has earned less that RM 20000 as the Vice/Deputy PM.and he has been behind bars for 4 years or so,for sure the balance money he has had earned been used by his wife and family.

i dont think he will join UMNO.if he does,that might be a decent point for UMNO.but i dont think he will,after all he already has keadilan.

but then again,the dude that currently leading pemuda keadialn said he is open to any offer,including from UMNO.berjuang or gila kuasa,u can figure out by urself.

back to DSAI,he could lead the opposition party.and i guess he would be a strong opposition leader becoz even some malay in UMNO still support him.what else the modern day malays who are bored with UMNO,plus given the fact today's UMNO leaders are not as wise and as capable of leading the nation like Dr. M.


about the mattress thing,hmmm,his semen found on the mattress right....one day when someone interview him,someone should ask him about this.

really cant wait to read this so-called "penjuang's" 1st interview.

[el_empty]

to take issue with the semen stains, come on, it's quite an open allegation that the results might be rigged. who conducted the tests? who had direct access to the results before they were made public? the point is, there is much secrecy in the way results are obtained and furthermore, the government has yet to prove itself as a credible and transparent one.

all this compounded with the fact that tivoli villas, the crimescene, was not even built on the date that the prosecution alleged the crime (not crime excuse me.. but activity) was committed.

[kucingbiru]

They don't know:
1. How to read english
2. The law

They only know:

1. Scream reformasi
2. Scream Lawan tetap lawan
3. Kick garbage bin and dip the CI



rite mislead. dont be a smartass. u know better than generalizing bullshit like that.

ooh, i forgot. i'm not taking u seriously.

[jiinjoo]

It seems like to some people, whether or not Anwar is gay draws the line between whether he can be PM or not. Can someone explain why?

Also, it is clear that we're all thinking whether he can come back to head a party and eventually become a PM, a position he was initially groomed to be in. What makes you think that that's what he's aiming for? and why do you think?

(I'm not interested in whether he's gay or not - firstly I'm not a muslim, and from my free-thinker perspectives, you can be gay and a good man at the same time. I'm voting for a good man (or women) to be our PM. Is Anwar a good man?)

[topdog]

(I'm not interested in whether he's gay or not - firstly I'm not a muslim, and from my free-thinker perspectives, you can be gay and a good man at the same time.
unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on one's point of view, the vast majority of malaysians are not free-thinkers.

a gay man, or woman for that matter, is simply not acceptable for prime ministership in malaysia because of the above fact.

if a gay person somehow manages to sneak into power by concealing his/her sexuality from the electorate, he/she could be vulnerable to manipulations (e.g. blackmail) by outside forces such as the cia, which would put the nation's interests at risk.

well, that's one reason i've heard being floated around.

as for whether anwar is a good man (straight or gay), we can only draw our own conclusions from his body of work before his fallout with mahathir. my conclusion: inconclusive, bordering on the negative.

[dinna_g]

how could he afford going to germany?who is paying for the operation,the flight ticket,the hospital stay?he has earned less that RM 20000 as the Vice/Deputy PM.and he has been behind bars for 4 years or so,for sure the balance money he has had earned been used by his wife and family.

fyi, i read somewhere in utusan, our pm was asked whether a saudi arabian is lending DSAI his/her private jet to germany (but pak lah said he wasnt aware of that). i tried to find the article but utusan's search engine is down at this point. will try later if you want me to. so if this is true, it's probably reasonable to assume that the same person is supporting his medical treatment.

anyway, speaking that he earned less than rm20k per month. has it ever encountered to any of you that all ministers earn less than that as well. but why on earth that all ministers are rich (with the exceptional of some that already own a fortune before going into politics). corruption, no?

i digress. i'm actually interested in answering jiinjoo's q:
Also, it is clear that we're all thinking whether he can come back to head a party and eventually become a PM, a position he was initially groomed to be in. What makes you think that that's what he's aiming for? and why do you think?
i personally don't think that he's aiming to be a PM. if he does, he's aiming way too high. even IF whatever accusation given to him isn't true, it's hard to brush off the stain. he probably just want to make a difference in the malaysian politics (at least if he meant what he said).

i personally think that he should go back to politics. if he doesnt, he's a coward. if he is a true warrior, he'll fight to the end even if he'll lose in the end. taken onn jaafar (sorry for going far back in history) for example, he fought for what he believed in. eventhough his party lost, but he never gave up. that's the spirit! DSAI may not make a difference to the entire country, but he may make a difference to some people.

[jiinjoo]

Actually, that's what I'm trying to say. Being "gay" or not is not something you can just claim a person to be or not. It's not like the typical discrimination we typically use in our system, e.g. skin color, religion, height, weight, pimple count etc.

Just like having a wife and kids means nothing in this context. I'm sure there are millions of people out there that are "gay" but happily married and have kids, and they are hapy probably because they are accepted socially, not because they can live a life of their choosing. It's the same, some people belong to a certain religion or clan or social strata because they feel accepted and they feel secure. If your ambition is to be a garbage man so that you can clean away all the garbage in your community, and but you have a medical degree and is a practising GP with lots of praises from people, family etc., what will happen if you suddenly gave up your job and went to pick rubbish for a living? (Ok this isn't the best example... maybe think about other things like citizenship or fashion taste)

Anyway, I think topdog makes sense in his argument. I must say here that we're a long way from having an independent ruling body because of entrenched characteristics like these. It is a known fact that even ghost are celebrated in say the chinese community and politicians have to attend these events to garner support. A voted leader of a nation will most probably reflect the character of the nation. So if one day it is acceptable to have a gay PM, then we'll have a gay PM. So in the mean time it's not.

And about blackmailling - you bet. He doesn't have to be gay to be blackmailed. People can blackmail you for Anything you do, with a capital A. Anyone who threads along the corridors of power needs to learn to handle such contingencies.

If there's one thing I'm sure, it's the belief that he will not give up his struggle. I think it doesn't matter how he makes his comeback. It'll be a great day for civil societies in Malaysia and a great big step towards self-governance.

[Ic3b3rg]

Moderator deleteLets say IF
1. we do not look at it from a religious point of view
2. DSAI is gay and he did participate in homosexual activities.

DSAI will be an unlikely candidate for prime ministership because he is not a good role model based on the following argument.
- As a muslim, he is beholden to Islamic law. And islamic law forbids homosexual activities.

Even if we are a secular country, he will not have good prospects as a candidate because his integrity would have been questioned when he fail to obey the law he chose for himself.

( the above argument is only applicable if the two hypothesis are true)

Moderators Action: Edited, Off-Topic

[da-hype]

Ic3b3rg, yes i know. but you can't take religion out of it. remember the rukun negara?

I know there are none muslims in malaysia and their are people who don't beleive in religion.

I persoanlly think you can't do that seperation of church and state thing in malaysia. and we shouldnt

[ElansarGelmir]

Ic3b3rg, yes i know. but you can't take religion out of it. remember the rukun negara?

I know there are none muslims in malaysia and their are people who don't beleive in religion.

I persoanlly think you can't do that seperation of church and state thing in malaysia. and we shouldnt

and why shouldn't we?

[Ic3b3rg]

:wink: i guess what i am trying to say is :

Even if we are in a secular country, a gay Muslim leader will face strong opposition but not because he is gay. A gay free thinker MAY be accepted because he is not beholden to Islamic law. But a gay Muslim shows that he is really undecided about who he really is, what he believes in and what his principles are . So how can he make decisions which will affect national interests?

[da-hype]

:wink: i guess what i am trying to say is :

Even if we are in a secular country, a gay Muslim leader will face strong opposition but not because he is gay. A gay free thinker MAY be accepted because he is not beholden to Islamic law. But a gay Muslim shows that he is really undecided about who he really is, what he believes in and what his principles are . So how can he make decisions which will affect national interests?

agree... perfectly put.


Ic3b3rg, yes i know. but you can't take religion out of it. remember the rukun negara?

I know there are none muslims in malaysia and their are people who don't beleive in religion.

I persoanlly think you can't do that seperation of church and state thing in malaysia. and we shouldnt

and why shouldn't we?

ElansarGelmir... here is my opinion.

example:

"rasuah" is illegal in malaysian law, it is still widely done in malaysia.. why? because culturely it's "kind" of a norm. (i'm not saying it right :p )

If you were studying in the US.. would you do the same and try to "rasuah" a police man, just because it's ok back home? i know i wouldn't.


Malaysia is like what 70-75% muslim? in the US how ever.. it's diffrent. some states have more catholics than other.. more mormons than others...more Protestant than others.. that means every state where the majority wins could make a constitution and laws over other religions.. example..

"Virginia: in 1786 Virginia enacted Jefferson's "Bill for the Establishment of Religious Liberty." Virginia's enactment disestablished the Anglican Church, outlawed all public assessments for religion, and placed the various religious denominations on an equal legal footing. As documented by historian Thomas Curry, the debate over disestablishment was protracted and intense, and it turned on the general feeling that requiring people to support religion against their will was a violation of religious liberty. Given these facts, how likely is it that the state of Virginia would--the very next year--turn around and support a Constitution which granted the federal government the power to provide non- preferential aid to religion? Non-preferential aid, by definition, requires people to support religions with which they do not agree, precisely the point at issue in the Virginia debate. It is doubtful, in other words, that Virginians would have approved the Constitution if they understood it to do what accomodationists say it did. "


and

"Massachusetts: in 1780 Massachusetts adopted a Constitution that reenforced and extended that state's Protestant religious establishment. As Curry notes, this Constitution required Catholics to contribute to Protestant churches, and effectively barred Catholics from public office (quite in keeping with the popular religious sentiments of the time). How likely is it that Massachusetts would have accepted a Constitution that would have allowed the Federal government to aid the Catholic church as part of non-preferential distribution of funds? Non-preferential aid, no matter how widely distributed, would have diverted at least some funds to Catholicism. Again, we think this scenario highly unlikely. "


so why would malaysia do this?
Keep in mind that in the US, every state has it's own set of laws, and then u have the federal government that governs all the states. Malaysia does not have this. you deal drugs in kedah, you get the same punishment if you deal drugs in sabah.

[ElansarGelmir]

if everyone thinks it's a norm and do nuts about it, then it will be a tradition and a culture... and in the end, the fault lies on us, the citizens, not the government. Bersih, Cekap, dan Amanah. if we keep saying it has always been like that, then i'm sad to say our civilization will someday come to an end.

[da-hype]

that was just an example. might not have been a good one :P

[jiinjoo]

But a gay Muslim shows that he is really undecided about who he really is, what he believes in and what his principles are . So how can he make decisions which will affect national interests?
First and foremost, let's be sure that I'm not trying to defend Anwar. I'm just at my usual, offering the other side of the argument.

Anwar is sort of decided isn't he? He's the most liberal muslim leader we've seen to date. In his own words: Islam is a way of life not a set of rituals. I think it is pretty clear he's doing what he said, his principles, and he's a living proof that there're many interpretation of a religion. It is possible that every muslim we know to date have violated some parts of the Quran, but that doesn't say anything about how "Islamic" or how devoted that person is, doesn't say anything about what his or her principles etc. (da-hype's rasuah being one example) In fact, from what Anwar has done (like help setting up Bank Islam, establishing IIU, founding ABIM, etc.) I think he has always been very clear about his principles isn't he?

so why would malaysia do this?
Keep in mind that in the US, every state has it's own set of laws, and then u have the federal government that governs all the states. Malaysia does not have this. you deal drugs in kedah, you get the same punishment if you deal drugs in sabah.
The current differences in terms of system between the United States and the United Sultanates++ is that our seperation of power is well demarcated by category, so we know who to go to for which issue (e.g. economy defence go to central, land agriculture go to state), so drug traffic falls under the jurisdiction of the federal government. In the US, it is enforced by the DEA, which is also a federal body, and the rules apply to the whole country http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/agency/penalties.htm (it's much simpler in M'sia, as you guys already know) But I know wht you're referring to, e.g. the speed limit in each state is different, but it's 120kmph max throughout M'sia on the highways for example.

So why would Malaysia seperate church and state? Because the religious establishment and rules are not suitable for everyone in the country. Simply put, some of us live under a very different contract, one that says work hard and be rewarded with a good and stable life, instead of going to heaven. Anyway, this is out of topic and should continue here: http://nac01.kinetichost.net/~recom/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1265&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc Many good points have already been mentioned.

Back to Anwar - anyone in Germany organizing a trip while he's there? :) :) :)


Sources:
http://www.freeanwar.net/news/AnwarBiodata.html
http://confinder.richmond.edu/local_malaysia.html (Ninth Schedule)
http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/
and
http://www.geocities.com/durian_report/latest.htm ...

[qedx]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=516&e=1&u=/ap/20040907/ap_on_re_as/malaysia_anwar[/url]]Malaysian High Court Hears Anwar Appeal

By JASBANT SINGH, Associated Press Writer

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia - Malaysia's highest court began an appeals hearing Tuesday that could erase newly freed former deputy leader Anwar Ibrahim's criminal record and allow him back into politics.

[misled_youth]

Hi guys. More views on Anwar: http://www2.malaysiakini.com/editorials/30028

I don't like Steven Gan, but this editorial is the ONLY, and I mean ONLY editorial that has an unusual twist to the Anwar saga.

Excerpts:

As expected, the government-controlled media has been quick to rework the spin. We should move on, they said. It?s time to close a bizarre chapter in our history. And Malaysians can do well to bury the Anwar ghost.

Hang on ... not so fast. Before we bury the ghost, we need to dissect the battered corpse. For after all, the media was the handmaiden of Anwar?s political downfall.

They were key actors in the orgy of smear against Anwar, much like a pack of mongrels in a feeding frenzy. Perhaps today?s opinion writers should dig up their own archives and peer at what they had written about the former deputy premier.

Surely we must find out what had went wrong, and what lessons we can learn from that sad episode. Otherwise, this tragedy will but have to repeat itself

[...]

Still, before he can move on, Anwar must first answer niggling questions on his 17 years in government and the Barisan Nasional. Indeed, he was part of the system he now criticises.

Like Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi, Anwar had stood idly by when their then boss assaulted the judiciary. Like Abdullah, he had backed Dr Mahathir Mohamad in the ISA crackdown on 100-odd dissidents in 1987. Like Abdullah, he turned a blind eye to the maladies of corruption and abuse of power.

However, unlike Abdullah, he can claim to have defied Mahathir at the tail-end of his government career. Clearly, Anwar has emerged from jail stronger - his six year stint at Sungai Buloh is another stripe on his sleeve adding to the two years he spent in Kamunting when he was a youth leader in the ?70s.

[...]

Many are nameless, faceless Malaysians who have made enormous sacrifices to build a new Malaysia. History may not record their contribution, but that really doesn?t matter. They derive their silent satisfaction from Malaysia becoming a normal country again.

The fight to reclaim our nation has begun - either with or without Anwar.


------------

I don't normally do this, but if you want the full text, please PM me, and I'll C&P it to you ASAP.

Cheers!
________
Web shows (http://livesexwebshows.com/)

[misled_youth]

ANWAR BARRED FROM POLITICS UNTIL 2008

Yey! Thank you judiciary! Thanks from saving us from Anwar's tyranny!

We don't want yahoo's kicking garbage bins and kick tv3 cars. We don't want to see more blackeye pictures.
________
Parejahotst8 (http://camslivesexy.com/cam/parejahotst8)

[jiinjoo]

Wasn't that the defacto thing already said? Grounded for 5 years if jailed?

[jiinjoo]

Some more news. This is an interview by ABC (the aussie one, not the yankee one) with DSAI.

http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2004/s1199117.htm

This is my highlight:

Anwar: I said I am sympathetic to your son, let me deal with it let me do whatever I can within my power to delay action against him, but I can?t sign the two billion ringgit transaction using government funds.

Williams: Is that what he was asking you to do?

Anwar: Yes to bail out his son ? yes.

Williams: To bail out his sons?

Anwar: Yes.

Anwar: YES!!!

:D

malaysia will probably in chaos if anwar starts to enter the political ring....any views

[__earth]

malaysia will probably in chaos if anwar starts to enter the political ring....any views

not true.

[chiunlin]

malaysia will probably in chaos if anwar starts to enter the political ring....any views

not true.
Reason?

[__earth]

anwar entrance back into politics may help reduce BN's supermajority by rallying the other side of the fence. Malaysia will probably go to chaos if the opposition continues to be weakened. One party system is not efficient (excluding singapore).

heh! I am talking crap.

[phantom]

why only Anwar?there are plenty of remarkable leaders who are not gila kuasa/gila pangkat out there who could that.the prob is i am bored with so many malay/muslims leaders who called themselves as activist,pejuang and yada yada yada but failed to do what they have promised beforehand.

one exemption is to Dr. M,regardless how untransparent he must be,he has the brain that most leaders out there lack or perhaps dont possess.

BN supermajority can be viewed these ways:

ppl are supporting the goverment to the utmost.

BN is dominating the malaysian political scene and ergo might lead to a corrupted political machine.

it is for u to decide.but just becoz BN is having the supermajority as u called it,doesnt mean we are in a danger zone.some ppl dont support BN per se,they used to vote just for Dr. M or now may be Mr. Badawi.


and trust me,if u think having the opposition ruling more seats in the parliment as the ruler to gauge democracy,then u have to do the math again.in my area,a DAP dude won the seat.He never came to visit the area until the next election and he told my mum to vote for him.real dumb dude,my mum woke up the earliest on the election day and voted for someone else.(vote is secret right). and guess what BN took over in 1999 and this BN dude cared enough to come and visit my area every now and then.

see how crap some opposition leaders are.democracy?or crap?

[__earth]

why anwar? because he has the charisma. I dont see any other figure being combative as he is. Most PAS ppl are pathetic as well as myopic, DAP just don't have enough support, Keadilan lost their sight. Anwar might be the needed boost.

If the opposition has any as you have said, surely the opposition state should be better than its current form.

but just becoz BN is having the supermajority as u called it,doesnt mean we are in a danger zone.some ppl dont support BN per se,they used to vote just for Dr. M or now may be Mr. Badawi.

having a one-party state endangers democracy. and trust me, with the supermajority (an extreme supermajority in fact, with around 90% seats), the Parliament has become a rubber stamp for the ruling party.

and supermajority is a real term. I did not make it out of the blue. i suggest you google before you tease.

BN supermajority can be viewed these ways:

ppl are supporting the goverment to the utmost.

BN is dominating the malaysian political scene and ergo might lead to a corrupted political machine.

let's reduce it into a simpler model. similar to economics, between a monopoly and a competitive market, which one do you prefer as a consumer?

[kucingbiru]

malaysia will probably in chaos if anwar starts to enter the political ring....any views

well, if a challenge is something bad, perhaps our people is not competitive enough.

[qedx]

malaysia will probably in chaos if anwar starts to enter the political ring....any views
why would malaysia be in chaos?

[jiinjoo]

malaysia will probably in chaos if anwar starts to enter the political ring....any views
why would malaysia be in chaos?
Ya lor - why? Answer leh...

[el_empty]

the official anwar talk is revived:

Recently DSAI was made the visiting fellow at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, where in addition to giving a series of lectures and seminars, will be putting together the memoir of his prison days.

his first speech was given earlier today, april 5th 2005 at the school of advanded international studies. excerpts from the press release:
http://www.sais-jhu.edu/pubaffairs/media_events/Media_Advisories/MA2005/Ibrahim05.html

Presenting his first public address in the United States since being released from prison, Anwar will speak about ?Reflections: The Asian Economic Crisis and Political Transitions in Southeast Asia.? The SAIS Foreign Policy Institute this week appointed Anwar as a distinguished senior visiting fellow.

As a Foreign Policy Institute distinguished senior visiting fellow, Anwar will present seminars on contemporary Southeast Asian politics, economic reform, Islam and democracy, and, in general, join in SAIS activities. He is currently working on his prison diaries to be published later this year and a project examining democratization in the Muslim world. He also will counsel students who wish to learn more about Southeast Asia and the Muslim world.

to hear the speech, you'll need real media player
http://www.sais-jhu.edu/mediastream/AnwarSpeech040505.ram

his Q&A session
http://www.sais-jhu.edu/mediastream/AnwarQA040505.ram

[el_empty]

for those not willing to install real media, here's a newspaper report by aljazeera.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/D0DD9F05-88F5-455A-870F-B4023C2CEC13.htm

Former Malaysian deputy premier Anwar Ibrahim has attacked the United States for endorsing Malaysia as a moderate Muslim democracy, when it actually enjoyed little freedom.

The rebel politician on Tuesday said there were no free and fair elections in Malaysia and complained of a lack of freedom of speech, which hindered exposure of corruption in the country led by Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi.

"How do you have free and fair elections when the views of the opposition are not heard?" Anwar asked in his first public address in the United States since being released from prison in September last year.

"I mean it is mockery, it is mockery even when Washington, for example, approves this sort of exercise because it just portrays your utter ignorance or inconsistency in dealing with such countries," he said at the Johns Hopkins University's Washington-based School of Advanced International Studies.

Anwar said the United States and other Western nations were willing to look the other way if countries supported their "war on terror". "They are so gullible. As long as you come out openly and publicly condemn terror, then you get away with murder," he said.

Apprantly backing his claim that there was little freedom in Malaysia, the 57-year-old Anwar said he was prevented from speaking to university students. "I am not in a position to speak to students in any university in the country. And you are talking about a moderate Muslim country with democracy as being claimed".

"If you want to be a moderate Muslim country, you cannot condone corruption," he said.

[jiinjoo]

More Anwar for diehards:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-524-1807093-524,00.html

Article protrays a fairly moderate Anwar. In fact, anyone in the East Coast US manage to meet up wtih him / organize talks etc.?

Interesting footnote - can Anwar be the candidate for the next UN sec-gen?

[topdog]

i don't get the love fest over anwar (among malaysians, that is). other than being wronged by his former mentor, what did he do different from his colleagues when he was part of the establishment?

[Salvation]

This guy had some credibility problem, when he was in the government, I didn't recall him complaining about all those unjust policies malaysia has, now that he was kicked out of BN, he makes so much noise. Sorry, I just don't buy his words.[/quote]

[gonjeng]

well you guys have to realize that when he was working for the government, he was working under Dr. M. hence, there is no such thing as freedon of speech - well there is but it is either freedom of speech and ISA or shut up and live happily ever after. therefore i tend to believe (this was backed from my conversation with my parents) that he did fight (to some extend) to change the corrupt government an 'betulkan' stuff. as far as i was told, amongst other reasons as well, this was one of the main reasons that he got sacked - politically motivated since most big guys there want to 'jaga their periuk nasik'.

although i do not know what he has done specifically for the country back then, i do feel that he is NOT amongst the corrupted ministers. if he is, i do not think he will make noise on how corrupt the government and menteris are as that will expose his sins also.

besides that, since we all agree that BN has to go, i do not think anybody else who can take over paklah's position. you all may disagree but amongst other opposition candidates, DSAI have the most experience being up there. plus, generally, he is accepted by all races in malaysia. most malays will not support kit siang, and most non-malays will not support PAS either. what do you guys think?

[amshah]

This guy had some credibility problem, when he was in the government, I didn't recall him complaining about all those unjust policies malaysia has, now that he was kicked out of BN, he makes so much noise. Sorry, I just don't buy his words.[/quote]

i bet everyone will be such noisy if they were being unjustice themselves...