Tell me what is wrong here

[Thirdshifter]

A chief editor for a private Newspaper is forced to resign after the UMNO commitee dicided that he is to thought provocative?

the full article http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2003/11/22/nation/6768121&sec=nation

How can we expect Malaysian to grow up when the goverment itself fails to set an example? 4 weeks in the office and all Mr. Badawi does is resemble Mahathirs era of totalitarian. Not much changed i guess.

just for the inquiring minds

to?tal?i?tar?i?an ( P ) Pronunciation Key (t-tl-t?r-n)
adj.
Of, relating to, being, or imposing a form of government in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control over all aspects of life, the individual is subordinated to the state, and opposing political and cultural expression is suppressed: ?A totalitarian regime crushes all autonomous institutions in its drive to seize the human soul? (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.).

[chenchow]

I am not too well-versed in this, but check out the news article in Recom. There's an article posted today on it, which Pak Lah clarifies about it, being due to the external relation with Saudi Arabia and other Gulf nations.

[masterof_none]

before we proceed, let me ask these question to the author:

what are we trying to achieve under this topic? finding what's wrong...

you mean, we need to redefine the term 'free speech'?
or you are against the ownership of the media?
or, you want someone else other than Pak Lah?...for not behaving what you expect?


I apologize if these questions offending you, but I'm not sure what to post, and what can we benefit if we proceed with the discussion.

[Thirdshifter]

UMNO Had expressed its position on the matter to the NSTP management, which sent a letter of termination to the group editor-in-chief on Friday.
.

There's something wrong with that picture.


If you read the article, it came to the point of asking for the ?totalitarian? Saudi government to be brought down, to be overthrown. That was an act that we could not accept

Irony


?We feel the article in the New Straits Times can cause problems between Malaysia and Saudi Arabia as well as other Gulf countries.

If the goverment seems to act on their feelings not logic, i have no idea what else is around the corner. Everytime i though i've seen it all.. there's something new.
If the goverment could

[Thirdshifter]

before we proceed, let me ask these question to the author:

what are we trying to achieve under this topic? finding what's wrong...

you mean, we need to redefine the term 'free speech'?
or you are against the ownership of the media?
or, you want someone else other than Pak Lah?...for not behaving what you expect?


I apologize if these questions offending you, but I'm not sure what to post, and what can we benefit if we proceed with the discussion.

The benefit? Since all major sources of News regarding of Malaysia is ussualy unbalanced and unfair i would've though this would fit into the Current issues Perfectly.

Its those small steps that makes a difference.

I'm not trying to achieve anything under this topic, just sharing a thought/opinions on current issues. If you have one please share it.

[__earth]

i think it is you who clouds your mind with emotion.
before i proceed, i would like to say i myself am surpised with UMNO's move disagree with the decision to sack dollah ahmad.

however, Thirdshifter, trying thinking harder. the logic flows rather smoothly.

[Thirdshifter]

however, Thirdshifter, trying thinking harder. the logic flows rather smoothly.

All i'm doing is trying to justify the cause, I'm sure the mind of the 600 users that recoms has would help me see the light of this event.

Also I think this is a great way to highlight news.

[__earth]

well, here it is, or are.

point numero uno:
Malaysia has always uphold the non-interference policy. In essence, ASEAN was founded by Malaysia (the others of course) with the same principal. allowing dollah ahmad to go unpunished would go against this principal. the same reason goes with why ASEAN has been so reluctant to criticize Myanmar despite the EU's pressure.

point 2:
dollah ahmad criticized Saudi Arabia and malaysia is currently the chairman of the OIC. damaging the relationship with Saudi Arabia is the last thing malaysia would want to do because SA is like the US in the UN.

but i agree and understand your frustration. Dollah Ahmad should not be sacked and freedom of speech seem to be eroded day by day.

[chenchow]

what is written by _earth in the last post sums up my feeling. While we may be perplexed by what has happened, I believe that there must be a reason behind it.

Thirdshifter, thanks for bringing up this issue. I think this issue provides us a very good opportunity to think on it and not just touch the surface. Irrespective of which conclusion we came into, we need to understand the rationale of both sides and look from their perspectives... May be we should even look beyond 2 parties...

[qedx]

Why should he be punished? The articles he wrote are HIS opinions, not the opinion of the people or government. They can punish us for voicing our opinions these days? Or are the Saudis demanding him to be punished? Is that it?

[CrAzyCow]

No doubt it seemed unfair, but is for the better of our country's future i guess. Do u want just because a person said such n such, 20 million ppl must suffer because of him? Furthermore, he is a chief editor. He shud know better tht this will happen.

Anyways, i do not side anybody in this matter.

[qedx]

if it can happen to one person it can happen to you.

[qedx]

oh i forgot this is malaysia we are talking about. things like that happen here.

[__earth]

all i can say is, be constructive. if you dont have anything constructive to say, just dont start a FFA bashing party.

if you are critical enough and if you've actually read the whole thread, you'll realize that everybody in this thread agrees that that's a bad decision by the govt. your attack is unwarranted.

[qedx]

politics are never good.just dont start a FFA party.what else am i here for? war is always good

[iQing]

I have seen on TV...

a specialist says that Malaysia ranks position 100++ in the world when come to the freedom of speech by media...

[masterof_none]

Why should he be punished? The articles he wrote are HIS opinions, not the opinion of the people or government. They can punish us for voicing our opinions these days? Or are the Saudis demanding him to be punished? Is that it?

let's say you work for Mistoft as a spokeman.

and , one fine day, you go to Apple Computer's press conference in Cupertino and you say:
"Mistoft Sucks! "

What do you think Mistoftt would do to you. ? Keep you there?
respecting your free speech? heck no.

not sure whether this analogy reflect the current discussion.
of course we have the dilemma of free speech. If you can say whatever you want in the news, country will go chaos. You want to say yours, I want to say mine, we all fight in the public. what's the use?

also, free speech is also an ideal, just like democracy, fascism, ..etc.
if ppl can say whatever they want, I won't buy any newspapers.
free speech can lead to misinformation. free speech is just another ideal, that guide us to strike a balance to distinguish what's good or what's not good.

But, I don't really care much if the editor who being sacked can damage the relationship Malaysia-Saudi.

Tell me what newspaper are not biased in this whole world. Very few.
even NY times got problem with their editor
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030606-010408-5099r.htm
Fox News correspondent being fired too when he reported something that is not good about the US.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31879

so , if the Americans also do it, we Malaysia of course need more time to learn from them about democracy and free speech.

[Thirdshifter]

Chenchow, I see your point but...

UMNO in a private meeting deciding that NST chief editor should be fired?

Whats the point of branding all these media as private entities when in reality is clearly shows that goverment has their hand deep in it.

How can i be sure that all malaysian realize this?

[__earth]

NSTP publishes Berita Harian and BH is biased to UMNO. If one of its publication is pro-UMNO, and the parent company allows it, then NSTP could be ______ too.
I'll leave it to you to do the math.

[masterof_none]

Umno own Utusan.

if you're not satisfied with their decision, voice your opinion in the proper channel . own a stock in utusan, and question them why they do that.

Plus, Malaysia need to maintain relation with Saudi.

Do you want to risk all pilgrimage to Mecca next year, ?

you can put yourself inside Pak Lah's shoe.


What would you do...in your ideal world?

[CrAzyCow]

Same thoughts as master_of_none.. as i mentioned earlier, just because of 1 person comments, 20 million ppl have to suffer. Is it fair to the other ppl?

[__earth]

Umno own Utusan.

just a correction. Utusan and NSTP are two different entities.

[Thirdshifter]

What would you do...in your ideal world?

Since it's not a personal issue i won't comment on that.

Back to topic. I'm pretty sure the Saudi wouldn't dare to say no to Muslim that wants to go to mecca for pilgrimage. It would create to much noise.

There should be no reason or any acceptable reason that i could think of, That could give UMNO the reason to interfere in a Private entity.. Remember Harakah? There's few others that shared the same fate.

Also how could it effect 20 million people? when only 59% of Malaysians are Muslims?

Also OIC is nothing more then a Jewish bashing Party. It serve no purpose other then what i already mentioned. (this is a whole different topic so ill stop here)

Wouldme starting my own Newspaper in Malaysia help? buying stocks? Of course not (harakah).. so master of none there you go.

[chenchow]

In terms of freedom of media and press, I would not say that we are very free, but at least we are not at the doldrum. Compared to Singapore, I think our government is treating our media much more liberally. We may see that our newspaper cover mainly news from government, but they do cite from opposition leaders and other NGOs. On the other hand, I spent 7 months studying in Singapore, reading ST daily. Do I ever get to see the name of opposition leader making comment on the newspaper, that is also controlled by government?

It would be an ideal case if our society would be able to be very free, but I think Malaysian society is still not up to that standard, neither even the society in US. Government would still be controling the media, and trying to scan through the news. We, Malaysians tend to act based on emotion, and if no control is done, some irresponsible people would incite the public and then others would react emotionally...

Back to this issue, personally I think it is appropriate for Abdullah Ahmad to be sacked on this issue, or at least issued a stern warning, but I think Pak Lah should sack him as the PM, and not the President of UMNO, since this issue is in relation with inter-governmental issue. But again, BH is owned UMNO.

In fact, we are fortunate enough to have some mouthpiece for people to see kind of independent online newspaper in Malaysiakini. While we have seen once the government tried to raid Malaysiakini, but we have seen that Malaysiakini has managed to produce its news for four years. That's pretty good. I don't think any south east asia nations would condone this independent newspaper at all...

[__earth]

Back to topic. I'm pretty sure the Saudi wouldn't dare to say no to Muslim that wants to go to mecca for pilgrimage. It would create to much noise.


you gotta learn to stop assuming in an argument. fyi, Saudi Arabia gives out quota each year to every country so that there is no overcrowding in mecca. if we have a problem with SA, SA could easily reduced the quota. they had done it in the past and they could do it again.


There should be no reason or any acceptable reason that i could think of, That could give UMNO the reason to interfere in a Private entity.. Remember Harakah? There's few others that shared the same fate.


remember that harakah's permit was and still is for party's members, not for public sale. PAS violated that clause. again stop assuming and do your hw.
furthermore, UMNO is a shareholder in NSTP. or at least some UMNO members are.


Also how could it effect 20 million people? when only 59% of Malaysians are Muslims?


60% is not 6%. in soviet union once, the cossacks were not even 10% of the total population but when the cossacks were not happy, moscow had an headache; in fact, a few headaches.


Also OIC is nothing more then a Jewish bashing Party. It serve no purpose other then what i already mentioned. (this is a whole different topic so ill stop here)


same to you. are you any different from OIC in this perpective?
you're just bashing without thinking.

here is my advice to you, stop assuming and do research on a particular issue before commenting. IMO, most of your points backfired on you, including in the other threads. when making a point, support it. a house can't be built on the clouds, at least until somebody invented the repulsor lift device.

[CrAzyCow]

I agree with earth. Sometimes, we just need to think for a while what others are trying to say instead of being so defensive about ur opinions. We learn much more if we are willing to open our hearts to other opinions.

[Thirdshifter]

here is my advice to you, stop assuming and do research on a particular issue before commenting. IMO, most of your points backfired on you, including in the other threads. when making a point, support it. a house can't be built on the clouds, at least until somebody invented the repulsor lift device.

I know about the quotas and i'm not assuming. I'm basing my opinion on the most probable couse. So far i haven't seen anything backfiring or me bashing anybody.

I'm presenting facts to whats going on in Malaysia. Face it, What happened is clearly against someone who proclaim itself a democracy.

Was mahathir fired because he said "Jews get others to die for them?" How much more damage is that compared to a small editorial/Opinion in a local daily?

I see your bias toward the goverment showing. Lets not make this a personal issue.

Lets focus about Malaysia.

Please, Russia(USSR)+headaches? i must say thats a dumb anology. There's only 11.8 Million Muslim approx. in Malaysia. So the it won't effect 20 million people stand. Oh forgot to mention.. 78% of Malaysian are between 0-35 which makes the group who want to go for pilgrimage even smaller.

Also the Saudi was infuriated by Abdullah's article that they put a quota on Malaysia pilgrimage this year. Last time i checked the Quota was there forever. (all of the news i read and heard failed to mentioned the exact number of the quota from last year compared to this year)

Also I don't think i'm bashing, Did i ever said something like the goverment is evil? or they get me to die for thier cause? etc. Nope. All i was doing is criticizing.

OIC on the other hand.... do i need to quote our loveable Tun Mahathir? I won't because you know exactly what he said.

I think i have supposrted all my points, again lets not get personal.

[iQing]

I think there should be a limit to freedom of speech...

if the media spread lies...

of if the media causes havoc amongst countries... then it's too much..

remember the thretening letter sent by Businessweek editor to Dr M?
it's too much...

just don't go beyond the bottom line..

[Thirdshifter]

remember the thretening letter sent by Businessweek editor to Dr M?
it's too much.....

yeah i remembered, businessweek threathen to write the selected truth about Malaysia and ofcourse Mahathir said it will pull All of Malaysian Airline advertisement from the magazine.. so it wrap that up.

there's no such thing as limiting the fredom of speech. Is it ok for the goverment to accuse you as a steeler/murderer on national TV and you can't reply the accusation on the same level?

[__earth]

I know about the quotas and i'm not assuming. I'm basing my opinion on the most probable couse.

most probable cause? that's another assumption.


I'm presenting facts to whats going on in Malaysia. Face it, What happened is clearly against someone who proclaim itself a democracy.

Was mahathir fired because he said "Jews get others to die for them?" How much more damage is that compared to a small editorial/Opinion in a local daily?

I see your bias toward the goverment showing. Lets not make this a personal issue.


we all are biased toward something but i've agreed with you about sacking. I prefer Abdullah Ahmad to remain at this post. i'm just against your argument because it lacks support and substance.

furthermore, nobody is making this personal except you. try searching "dumb analogy", "your biased is showing" and the likes in this thread. so far, it all belong to you. and please don't call out names. it's just an argument.


Lets focus about Malaysia.

Please, Russia(USSR)+headaches? i must say thats a dumb anology. There's only 11.8 Million Muslim approx. in Malaysia. So the it won't effect 20 million people stand. Oh forgot to mention.. 78% of Malaysian are between 0-35 which makes the group who want to go for pilgrimage even smaller.


have you ever heard the word majority?
and what so dumb about "moscow having a problem with 6% of population" analogy? if Moscow had problem with 6 % of the population, imagine what 60% could do. try to take the analogy to another level instead of reading to literally.


Also the Saudi was infuriated by Abdullah's article that they put a quota on Malaysia pilgrimage this year. Last time i checked the Quota was there forever. (all of the news i read and heard failed to mentioned the exact number of the quota from last year compared to this year)


i would love to correct myself if you could provide a proof. fyi, trying checking Tabung Haji. they do keep record on the qouta.


Also I don't think i'm bashing, Did i ever said something like the goverment is evil? or they get me to die for thier cause? etc. Nope. All i was doing is criticizing.


well, your OIC statement was there to disprove yourself.


OIC on the other hand.... do i need to quote our loveable Tun Mahathir? I won't because you know exactly what he said.

I think i have supposrted all my points, again lets not get personal.

d00d, even the Italian leader and Jacque Chirac told the EU to read the whole thing.

in any case, we are out of topic.

[Thirdshifter]

So if your totally against prediction, or assuming a scenario how do you make an analysis? Do you leap from a tall building just to make sure that you will die? again dumb anologies.

Here's a little more neutral read on this issue http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/southeastasia/view/58617/1/.html

If there's some of my oint that lacks support please higligh it to me, i will try to expain it with a kindergarten methodology.

Also, the majority is not always right. A misinformed majority that is.

I can also start a new thread on the Mahathirs speech, but it's pointless because it would not benefit anybody..you sure could definately IM me and i could easily point out the things he said that was obviously anti-semitic.

[__earth]

Also, the majority is not always right. A misinformed majority that is.

BN says that too. now you are saying it. i see a similarity. =)

[topdog]

Now now earth and thirdshifter, let's not pillow fight shall we? :twisted:

[Thirdshifter]

Also, the majority is not always right. A misinformed majority that is.

ah. so true. BN says that too. now you are saying it. i see a similarity. =)

fyi, that was Voltaire's words.

Anyway, i surely hoped that you would prove my points otherwise rather then be a spin doctor. If you really care about Malaysia you would.

Well anyway its only an online discussion that will get both you and me nowhere. Moving on..

[__earth]

Also, the majority is not always right. A misinformed majority that is.

i love it when you call out names.
anyway, i am just trying to point out the irony of your statement.

[masterof_none]

i suggest both of you guys should resolve the conflict through IM.