Don?t stir the hornet?s nest called Malay rights

[misled_youth]

Don?t stir the hornet?s nest called Malay rights
Fauwaz Abdul Aziz
Sep 24, 04 5:18pm

While waving a book on the May 13, 1969 racial riots, Umno?s newly elected deputy chairperson Badruddin Amiruldin today warned that questioning Malay rights was akin to stirring a hornet?s nest.

?Don?t poke at this nest, for if it were disturbed, these hornets will strike and destroy the country,? he said to a thunderous applause from delegates attending the party?s 55th annual general assembly at the Putra World Trade Centre in Kuala Lumpur.

He said the founding of Umno in 1946 coincided with an agreement by the main three races whereby citizenship would be granted to the minority groups in return for their acceptance of Malay special priveleges.

?Fifty-eight years ago we had an agreement with the other races, in which we permitted them to ?menumpang? (dwell) on this land. In the Federal Constitution, our rights as a race have been enshrined.

?Let no one from the other races ever question the rights of Malays on this land. Don?t question the religion because this is my right on this land,? said the fiery orator to another round of applause.

http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/30305

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misled_youth: I was born here. I'm not a penumpang. I'm a rakyat.

That's democracy for ya!
________
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[qedx]

Welcome to Malaysia!

[topdog]

the scary part about this was the "round of applause." but who am i to comment, i'm just a penumpang.

[DecentMerson]

the scary part about this was the "round of applause." but who am i to comment, i'm just a penumpang.

i agree...

just dun ask professionals to come back and say that Malaysia is tanah tumpah darah anda.... tanah air anda...

since we are just penumpang...

nice speech there.... Did Singapore pay u for that??? coz, u are encouraging ppl to go to Singapore and never look back....
u will see an exodus of ppl going to Singapore.... and Singapore will thank Malaysia for being the surrogate mother for 11 - 13 years....(free education from Standard 1 - form 6)....

[digimushu]

and I thought 'bangsa Malaysia' was close...

A colleague of mine from China asked me - "why don't you return to China?" and I told him, "coz M'sia is my home". Did not realize i was just a squatter...

[naturesimple]

A colleague of mine from China asked me - "why don't you return to China?" and I told him, "coz M'sia is my home". Did not realize i was just a squatter...


my lec said that there is 1 special department that allow org org cina from others place to have their citizenship as long as u can testify that u r org cina. is that true???


Fifty-eight years ago we had an agreement with the other races, in which we permitted them to ‘menumpang’ (dwell) on this land. In the Federal Constitution, our rights as a race have been enshrined.


so who am i(chinese) actually??????????????

[gonjeng]

heh... i still thinks that the speech has a lot of political influence in it. it was delivered during the UMNO meeting, hence it has to please the listener, which were mainly malay. also, he was recently elected, which means he has to show that he's 'all for the malay thingie'.

nevertheless, i personally believes that the government is gradually trying to eliminate (to some extend) some of the rights. its just that it cannot be done in a single day :) and as a malay, im all for that :)

[naturesimple]

heh... i still thinks that the speech has a lot of political influence in it. it was delivered during the UMNO meeting, hence it has to please the listener, which were mainly malay. also, he was recently elected, which means he has to show that he's 'all for the malay thingie'.


u mean majority of umno members PLEASE to listen that chinese n indian r all penumpang only???

[digimushu]

heh... i still thinks that the speech has a lot of political influence in it. it was delivered during the UMNO meeting, hence it has to please the listener, which were mainly malay. also, he was recently elected, which means he has to show that he's 'all for the malay thingie'.


u mean majority of umno members PLEASE to listen that chinese n indian r all penumpang only???

ever heard of the 'groupthink' phenomenon?

[gonjeng]

heh... yup, its that phenomenon alright. some ppl just conformed or couldnt bother to say they disagree...

~peace out~

[el_empty]

i have a feeling malaysia will remain a third world for a long long time....

[Thirdshifter]

To be honest i rather see Malaysian economic die then see people been unequal because of their race.

MOst of us here are eligible to vote so say no to UMNO and their BN bull shit. MCA, MIC are UMNO's puppet.

[gatecrasher]

To be honest i rather see Malaysian economic die then see people been unequal because of their race.
it's between a rock and a hard place :evil:

[DecentMerson]

i have a feeling malaysia will remain a third world for a long long time....

ahaha.... not surprising...

it seems that they are contented by the fact that we are the leader of third world countries....

nothing to be proud of.. actually... but that's their mentality...

[chenchow]

I think that while what that is said by Badruddin Amiruldin is something that we should consider, do try to read the full speech by UMNO President, Abdullah Ahmad Badawi.

[wyeoh]

On one hand we can complain about equal rights between races, or the fact that we are simply "menumpang-ing", but it is still by far a better option than most of the alternatives around us. A melding of races will naturally take a horrendously long time. The Africans have been in the States for about the same time if not longer than the Chinese, Indians and other non-Malays have been in Malaysia. Yet, I believe their plight might be worse. And this is from a country who practices freedom of speech, human rights, and other idealistic humane values. Double standards are here to stay whether we like it or not. It is not about complaining about what could be better, but to count the blessings that we have often taken for granted. We don't have Muslims burning down churches like in Indonesia, or an indefinite war zone like in Palestine, or even a permanent military stalemate like in the India-Pakistan border. We don't have starvation, or extreme poverty. All in all, I think our government, be it led by Malays or otherwise... have done a pretty darn good job. I personally don't care who it is at the top, as long as they do what is right for the country, without taking too much for themselves. We can forever blame the quota system which is especially applicable to us students, or look at it as a motivational tool which made us strive harder because of dire competition.

I personally would love our country to adopt Thailand's policy, where the Chinese people have been somewhat indoctrinated into the Thai race, by adopting Thai names and so on. That almost no segregation is visible. But they have it much easier as Thais and Chinese look very much more alike than our multi-cultural Malaysians.

All in all, what I am trying to say is... our ancestors signed the equivalent of a constitution, guaranteeing the princes of the lands rights we cannot claim. We can seek a higher ideal, but now is definitely not the place and time. The mental capacity of our fellow countrymen is still unable to grasp the fundamental concept of greater good, ... unfortunately.

[lyzzy]

A melding of races will naturally take a horrendously long time.

Yes, that is true, but the preservation of the special rights will not help this situation by much. The fact that most of us are still being treated as second class citizens will inevitably created some degree of resentment towards the other race. It took African Americans a long time to overcome racism, and they still are in the process of it, but they don't have a barrier like us, they are considered fully Americans by the government, they are not pushed down by laws in the constitution.

We don't have starvation, or extreme poverty.

This is not a very good attitude to adopt, it's striving for ... mediocrity. How many of us had it indoctorined into our minds that we should always strive for the best, seek the best? Being merely contented , will of course lead to some degree of happiness, everything's all right, you know, but it also leads apathy, and the acceptance that everything is alright. Of course we should be grateful and thankful for everything, but be too contented and nothing will ever change.
________
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[DecentMerson]

I personally would love our country to adopt Thailand's policy, where the Chinese people have been somewhat indoctrinated into the Thai race, by adopting Thai names and so on. That almost no segregation is visible. But they have it much easier as Thais and Chinese look very much more alike than our multi-cultural Malaysians.


this works??? a lot of Indonesian Chinese have indonesian names...but , does that make any difference??

[wyeoh]

It took African Americans a long time to overcome racism, and they still are in the process of it, but they don't have a barrier like us, they are considered fully Americans by the government, they are not pushed down by laws in the constitution.


Actually, when I compare our conditions versus theirs, I definitely believe ours is in a better state. It is true that they have enacted laws to bridge the inequality (while it is the opposite in Malaysia). It is still amazing that we are among the few countries that has affirmative action for the majority. :) Anyway, I am getting out of the topic. I think we are in a better state because despite being equal by law, the Caucasians and other races in the States still view most African Americans as a second tier citizen if not a third tier. They are not being trusted, are commonly equated to sampah masyarakat, and are common suspects for crime. These are of course personal opinions borned out of interaction with the local communities here, etc... But in Malaysia, I still think the different races treat each other with a certain amount of respect (which I suppose is bred via the school system). We know of others' culture, and try to not impose on theirs, etc. What do you think about this?



We don't have starvation, or extreme poverty.

This is not a very good attitude to adopt, it's striving for ... mediocrity. How many of us had it indoctorined into our minds that we should always strive for the best, seek the best? Being merely contented , will of course lead to some degree of happiness, everything's all right, you know, but it also leads apathy, and the acceptance that everything is alright. Of course we should be grateful and thankful for everything, but be too contented and nothing will ever change.

LOL, I knew this was going coming up.... The reason I took a somewhat extreme stance was because of the amount of posts stating the deficiencies of our beloved country.

You are right. We should not strive for mediocrity. Instead we should strive for balance. We can always be happy that there is food on our tables like the mainland Chinese population two decades ago, or strive for the impossible pushing ourselves to the limit at every moment like many of the business tycoons around the world (making some assumption here). Instead, I am suggesting that aside from simply scrutinizing our shortcomings, we should also see the benefits of being Malaysian. There will always be room for improvement, the cup is never full. But to constantly strive for betterment and ignoring our achievements, will defeats the purpose itself.

[el_empty]

the Caucasians and other races in the States still view most African Americans as a second tier citizen if not a third tier. They are not being trusted, are commonly equated to sampah masyarakat, and are common suspects for crime.

fooah... overwhelming generalization...

[Thirdshifter]

el_empty, My mom Lived in NYC for atleast 10 years. In the 70s, she was there when the big black out happened too.

None of the cool or weird things remind her as much as the Nice Black,Spanish people she met. It was to her sort of a revelation thet race doesn't make a person less or more. She was in nyc from 72 till i was born, in 1982.

However she does have real horror stories. The bronx gangsta busting a cap because they can't sleep, they shoot in the air to scare motorist from passing by their streets at night. etc. :D i guess nyc had changed a lot.. i hope!

[wyeoh]

I personally would love our country to adopt Thailand's policy, where the Chinese people have been somewhat indoctrinated into the Thai race, by adopting Thai names and so on. That almost no segregation is visible. But they have it much easier as Thais and Chinese look very much more alike than our multi-cultural Malaysians.


this works??? a lot of Indonesian Chinese have indonesian names...but , does that make any difference??

The names on themselves would not make a difference, but it does provide a sense of equality. After all, we wouldn't be afraid of writing our actual names in surat rasmi essays back in school. :) I am not saying that it is the one magic thing that will make all Malaysians equal if they start adopting one naming scheme. But it could be one step closer... by assimiliating our cultures, and to not stay distinctive. This is definitely going to create some uproar in here. *grin.

the Caucasians and other races in the States still view most African Americans as a second tier citizen if not a third tier. They are not being trusted, are commonly equated to sampah masyarakat, and are common suspects for crime.

fooah... overwhelming generalization...

hahaha.. yes it is an overwhelming generalization, and I definitely shouldn't have put it in such term exactly, attacking one race, etc. But I am sure you get the point... living in West Philadelphia for four years does have its effects on my opinions. :)

[chenchow]

I think that as we are talking about this issues, we should look at the bigger picture. As some of the members are talking about being 2nd class citizen, lets ask ourselves and see whether we are given opportunities in our country - Malaysia.

While things can't be ideal perfectly, and I can understand the frustration of certain fraction of society, but lets ask into the bottom of our heart, whether we get the opportunities?

Looking into our country...From education, guess, do majority of Malaysians who woudl like to further education, get the opportunities to further education? The answer is yes. While not everyone would get their first choice, but come to think of it, is it a problem that only limited to some races? Lets look at the university admission rate, is there any race in Malaysia that has admission rate higher than 80% or lower than 60% for IPTA? The answer is no. So, we are more or less equal.

On scholarships, do students from every race are given a chance or a good shot at it? The answer is yes. While there are many Malaysians who would hope to get and seem to be equally qualified, there are only that many scholarships. And to tell the truth, there are students of many A1s from all races not getting the scholarships, and not just the so-called second class citizen.

I think it is our mentality perceptiion that play the role. Lets ask ourselves, do the so-called second class citizens being given the opportunities to lead if they are qualified? The answer is yes. We have seen many examples. For instance, Leo Moggie is the current Chairman of Tenaga, for a long time, CUEPACS president is not a malay, deputy speaker in Dewan Negara and Dewan Rakyat is not a malay, Deputy Bank Negara Governor is not a Malay, and we have many of the government agencies being helmed by non-Malay.

It is not about the issues of not having the opportunities, but it is about the lack of talents of non-Malay joining civil service and dedicating their life to it. We can see that government is constantly on the look out for non-Malays to join various government agencies, NS volunteers etc...often going out of the way, to extend the deadlines, but there are very few takers. So, when there are only very few % of non-Malays among the employees/members, how do we expect many of them to be high ranked.

If we think that we are good and we are dedicated to solve this problem, lets join civil service and be a serving Malaysian to our country. I sincerely believe that chances/opportunities are there, and it is up to us to take up the opportunities. Don't ask what can be offered to us, but ask what we could do to help the situation. When we are asking others to give up something for us, do ask ourselves whether we are doing the same thing when others request us to do so? Are we being biased?

[lyzzy]

On scholarships, do students from every race are given a chance or a good shot at it? The answer is yes. While there are many Malaysians who would hope to get and seem to be equally qualified, there are only that many scholarships. And to tell the truth, there are students of many A1s from all races not getting the scholarships, and not just the so-called second class citizen.

I absolutely disagree with this.

Many non-bumis do not have as much opportunities to get scholarships from public granting bodies eg. JPA . Though this is purely ancedotal evidence, ALL the bumis who got more than 8A (we are not even talking about A1s here!) on SPM have recieved scholarships to universities abroad, and ONLY the non-bumis who got straight A1s (with the exception of a girl I know who got an A2 in Chemistry) got JPA scholarships. My experience in this comes from dealing with friends (30 or so) who in many cases recieved 10As, but not A1s, and STILL did NOT get the scholarship.

You may think what right have I to be angry at the government, but let me relate to you a story of my friend.

He had 9A1s in SPM and a C6 in Malay. I dare not judge whether the paper was marked discriminatorily, but it would seem so. He was a student who would constantly get As in his Malay paper trials. Anyway, that matter aside. He recieved 5As in his A Levels paper, and he got admitted to CAMBRIDGE.

He wasn't particularly well off, and he applied to JPA/Petronas/ whatever for a scholarship, many many times. He even went to MCA for help. He was turned down. He couldn't afford education in Cambridge, and so had to go to somewhere else, not as prestigious to study. He didn't even go to UK.

What a shame! What a robbery of a lifetime? I see JPA students being sent to STATE univs in US, for god sake, STATE (not including UCB and UCLA) And he couldn't even attend one of the most prestigious universities in the WORLD.

He couldn't even attend CAMBRIDGE.

And there are tons of JPA students happily studying in Univ of Michigan.

(I won't even be sore with the fact that I didn't get the JPA scholarship despite getting into Yale, at least Yale gave me enough financial aid, and at least my parents covered for the rest.)

Show me a bumi who has more than 9A1s in SPM who was turned away in his application for scholarship, and I'll show you 20 non-bumis in the same situation.

I know that there are non-bumis who get their scholarships from the government. I know it gives you an obligation to be faithful to the government.

But for every one non-bumi who were granted the JPA scholarship, MANY other non-bumis are turned away.

Please don't forget about us. Please don't think that because you are lucky, you have the right to tell the rest of us that we should be grateful to the government as well. Please don't tell us that because your dream was fufilled, you have the right to tell us all who have been ROBBED of our dreams.

Please don't be hypocritical.

P/S I have FOUR friends in Imperial, innumerble friends in LSE and SIX friends in Cambridge, and two friends in MIT, and one friend in Cornell. Only three of them are JPA scholars, despite ALL of us applying for a JPA scholarship.


If we think that we are good and we are dedicated to solve this problem, lets join civil service and be a serving Malaysian to our country.

I won't serve in the civil service because they have done nothing for me.
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[lyzzy]

assimiliating our cultures, and to not stay distinctive.

ERmm.. I wouldn't want to lose my culture, thank you very much. I'm proud of my own culture, and I will always be of this race, no matter my nationality.

Here's an idea. Why can't we just keep our own names? Using a 'Malaysian' name, which has no personal value whatsoever, because it has no ties with our individual culture.

Could you give me some instances of other nations which FORCES someone to use certain names? Besides Thai and Indon. I'm woefully ignorant here.

Why not quote Australia? It has a high number of Chinese, probably about the same persentage as Malaysia, not counting Koreans and whatever. They don't force anyone to have certain names. Yet, they are all (from meeting Australian Chinese here) undyingly proud of their Australian background in ways that we Malaysians can't be. They are not discriminated in their Constitution.
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[aquila]

I think it is our mentality perceptiion that play the role. Lets ask ourselves, do the so-called second class citizens being given the opportunities to lead if they are qualified? The answer is yes. We have seen many examples. For instance, Leo Moggie is the current Chairman of Tenaga, for a long time, CUEPACS president is not a malay, deputy speaker in Dewan Negara and Dewan Rakyat is not a malay, Deputy Bank Negara Governor is not a Malay, and we have many of the government agencies being helmed by non-Malay.


Chenchow, I think you are overtly idealistic. Realize how the roles you listed above are DEPUTY something. Why not be the speaker, governor, etc? I agree there are some occurences in which non-Malays hold leadership positions but the sad reality is that there are many qualified non-Bumis who are not able to be at the very top despite being the best person for the job.

I'm not sure what your background is or where you came from. Did you graduate from a Malay school or a Chinese school? If you have never been in that kind of system where there is open discrimination, then you cannot really give a reasonable and honest assessment of the situation, can you? You are right to be thankful for being a JPA scholar but that doesn't mean you should be less critical of the government. If you really love the country, you shouldn't be a yesman. Rather, you should look at the policies with a critical eye, give constructive criticism, etc. I think we should all strive for a better Malaysia instead of being just content with what we have now.

I absolutely disagree with the suggestion of making everyone adopt Malays' name. Do you realize that names have significance? You don't give your child any Ah Ka, Ah Niu names, right? Names reflect personality, identity, culture, etc. If everyone has the same name, we will lose our identities. Plus, Malay names have Muslim meanings and importance. I'm sure non-Muslims will not be happy to have Muslim names and vice versa.

I was just talking to a friend who's American and he told me that Asians seem to have a more accepting attitude. "Ahhh.. let's just accept the status quo, what for challenge the government," seems to be our attitude. And sadly, for many Malaysians at least, it's true. Please, please don't be just happy and content with what you have. Malaysia has so much more to offer, so many other improvements to make. Why lose talents to other countries? Why send away our own disgruntled "second-class" citizens? Education is supposed to make you less accepting of the status quo, to make you think for yourself, to make you challenge the authorities, to make you strive for better ideals, to make Malaysia a better Malaysia, a fair Malaysia, for every citizen.

The Chinese and INdians have been in Malaysia for more than a hundred years and still some people think they are second class immigrants, not even full fledged citizens. Let me ask you a question. If you say that the other races are second class, why collect the same amount of taxes from them? Why not have a separate taxing system for the different races? If a race contributes more to the country's income, I can understand if the government decides to give that race special privileges and rights. Otherwise, it is a silly policy that will make us lose out in the global competitive environment. How do you compete with another country, say Singapore, when you have a steady decline of human resources (the educated and technical population) to the OTHER country? Singapore became first world within one generation. Where are we now? Wawasan 2020? 16 more years. If we don't make the system more open, it will not become a reality.

Imagine the stream of young professionals exiting Malaysia because Malaysia doesn't feel like home. If you are not given full rights accorded to a citizen (or be a so called second class citizen), I'm sure you will feel that you don't technically belong to the place. So, I say STOP the discrimination, STOP the racist policies, and STOP using BIGOTRY to justify the wrongs of the government. It's not unusual for a government to focus its population's attention on an "outside" force (in this case the non-Bumis) so that the people will not condemn the government's bad policies and erroneous decisions.

Having said all this, I must admit that the government has changed in the last couple of years. THe change's slow but it's coming. More non-Bumis are scholarship holders now. MRSM is opening up to non-Bumis. The fact that there is talk about opening up the other exclusively Malay institutions is also a positive bearing of the things to come. The release of Anwar was very surprising too. I say, be an engine of that change. Don't lag behind by just supporting everything the government says and does. The government is not perfect, no one is. Power, money and fame can distort a person's good judgement sometimes. We cannot depend on the goodness of people. That's why we should always be critical and speak out if we disagree but do praise the govt if they're heading the right direction. Nothing should be judged on an absolute scale, so look at each situation and judge for yourselves.

[wyeoh]

*grin. As expected the naming scheme has generated lots of issues. I would like to clarify that I am NOT FOR changing our names to Malay names, or Malaysian names. I am merely suggesting that that is an avenue that could be taken to promote racial harmony. After all, racial segregation won't happen when there is only ONE race, right. :) And naming is the first step towards making that one race.

As for keeping our cultures and so on, aren't we already assimilating other cultures into our own? The Chinese culture in Malaysia is definitely distinctly different from that in China, or Taiwan, or Hong Kong (despite it being part of the greater China now) or even to our neighboring Singapore. This can be said true for the Indian community as well. We are heading towards giving birth to a new Malaysian race, and yes it takes painfully long... but I would just like to point out that there is very little we can do about it. We are influenced by the community, and the community by us.

On another note, I must agree that Chenchow seems idealistic. But I doubt he doesn't recognize the changes that need to be done to improve Malaysia. Despite most high ranked officials are mere deputies, that is in itself a step forward than years ago. We are moving forward, despite a excruciatingly slow pace. All we need to do now is to catalyze it. Easier said than done, yes. But the first step is to change the mindset that it is possible, and to do it.

The attitude that we should not give back to our country simply because she has not given anything to us is personally very disappointing. After all, JFK said ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country. If no one is willing to start giving, who is going to end the vicious cycle?

Constructive criticism is one thing, but action is another. Are we willing?

[phantom]

lyzzy wrote:

Many non-bumis do not have as much opportunities to get scholarships from public granting bodies eg. JPA . Though this is purely ancedotal evidence, ALL the bumis who got more than 8A (we are not even talking about A1s here!) on SPM have recieved scholarships to universities abroad, and ONLY the non-bumis who got straight A1s (with the exception of a girl I know who got an A2 in Chemistry) got JPA scholarships. My experience in this comes from dealing with friends (30 or so) who in many cases recieved 10As, but not A1s, and STILL did NOT get the scholarship.



so who are you?the frekin' person who takes record of all the bumi students and non-bumi students who get the scholarships?

look,unless u r overtly uninformed or to obsessed with ur ur chauvanist attitude,u forget about so many non-bumis with 9,10 As who attained the scholarship.Chenchow himself received 2 A2's yet he is in Cornell.what about the other straight a1's who was denied Ivy Leagues?Is race a co-factor here?and correct me if i am wrong,PROVE TO ME THAT ALL MALAY STUDENTS WITH 8 aS RECEIVED SCHOLARSHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!i personally know about 40 non-bumis who didn't get straight A1's who got JPA becoz there were in the same prepatory college with me.we have around 77 students there.so ur judgements based on ur racist attitude.ur stupid racist attitude.

look,my malay friends with 9,10 As were denied jpa scholarships too.these ppl didn't called the JPA as being racialist,they lived with it becoz unless like some other race they couldn't find race as a reason to justify their failure.yeas,i agree that it is darn hard for non-bumis to get JPA scholarships.i myself was a second intake amid my 12 A's in SPM... yeas a single a2 alone.and i am talking about a year where they were less than 210 students with straight a1s.if i attended normal ordinary school,i would be one of the straight A1's like others.so what is the difference?i was rejected by JPA too.the reason: i was less than a point given to be granted scholarship.so,tell me,just becoz u r a non-bumi with 10,11 1As and didn't get the scholarship,do u deserve thinking u r discriminated?what about flunking the cut-off point?yes,i didn't deny JPA gives more spaces to the bumis,but what irked me is a bunch of students who think they are smart becoz of their freakin' grades but the reality is they are didn't worth a cent.didh't eblieve me,check the straight a1's students results here in usa.some have 3.4,3.2 and some even 2.9!!


He had 9A1s in SPM and a C6 in Malay. I dare not judge whether the paper was marked discriminatorily, but it would seem so. He was a student who would constantly get As in his Malay paper trials. Anyway, that matter aside. He recieved 5As in his A Levels paper, and he got admitted to CAMBRIDGE.



i am prety sure he didn't write his BM paper well.i am pretty sure the examiner has given him the result he truly deserved.i know TWO malays with 8 A1 and 1 B3.b3 being malay.u tell me,if the examiner knew they were malay,shouldn't they be given A1 instead?and that was in the year when u could count with fingers how many straight a1s.

now maybe all the malays who didn't get A1 for english could argue that they didnt get A1 for english becoz the majoriry of english examiners are non-bumis.

well-done to ur friend for getting into cambrdige.so sad he was denied a scholarship.but did u read about a malay girl who got into german uni who was not given scholarship too both by JPA and Mara.see,dont just blame and put race as a factor.u have to think that JPA and Mara ppl are darn lazy to read his forms and applications too.think about the biroccracy too.



What a shame! What a robbery of a lifetime? I see JPA students being sent to STATE univs in US, for god sake, STATE (not including UCB and UCLA) And he couldn't even attend one of the most prestigious universities in the WORLD.



what a cocky statement of urs.

so where are u.yale?so u think those attending state uni as being less profound in e'sense.do u have a 4.0 cgpa?or at least summa cum laude cgpa range?if u dont.what a shame!!u r dumb just like us.read:dumb.

look,going to a state uni doesnt mean ppl are less smart,less worthful than ur cambridge friend.have u ever wonder that ur cambridge friend might not get 4.0 even at state uni here in usa?

all my lifetime i have top my class,my standard,my form .now here in a state uni in usa,i only have a summa cum laude cgpa.never even get 4.0.u think it's freakin easy to think that we are less in standard compare to you?

Show me a bumi who has more than 9A1s in SPM who was turned away in his application for scholarship, and I'll show you 20 non-bumis in the same situation

u want name?go the post about JPA scholarship.read about non-bumis students saying about their bumi friends who didn't get the scholarship.

shittttttt.i seriously wanna throw my computer becoz of ur post. damnnnnnnnn

[__earth]

He couldn't even attend CAMBRIDGE.

And there are tons of JPA students happily studying in Univ of Michigan.

Why Michigan? Are you degrading or something?

But I just want to say michigan and michigan state are two different institutions. We in Ann Arbor hate those sticking State in Lansing. We also kick their ass every year in almost everything imaginable.

And cmon, there are a lot of other ppl that didn't get scholarship. My sister got into some top Australian university and JPA doesn't want to sponsor her. Does that mean JPA practices racism against her?

What a shame! What a robbery of a lifetime? I see JPA students being sent to STATE univs in US, for god sake, STATE (not including UCB and UCLA) And he couldn't even attend one of the most prestigious universities in the WORLD.

He was robbed you say. But then, if he were given the scholarship, somebody would be robbed too. Which is better? he being robbed or the other person being robbed?

But for every one non-bumi who were granted the JPA scholarship, MANY other non-bumis are turned away.


For every one non-bumi that was granted JPA scholarship, MANY other non-bumis are turned away? True?

Anyway, that UMNO guy should be arrested under ISA for trying to incite racial disturbance. :D

[gonjeng]

heh, phantom... lepak ahh. you dont fight fire with fire. adopt the gandhi method to solve problems but not the bush method :) however, i do acknowledge that the earlier post was quite harsh and insensitive. heh, so much hate and resentment...

anyway, i just wanna point out sth here... right now, we are focusing on education, about scholarships or what not. due to the agreement which was made years ago, i do acknowledge that the Bumi's do have some advantages over the non-Bumi's. however, in the working environment, which is the next stage after getting education, the coin is flipped. so far, from my own experiences and from my Bumi frens, the favors are on the non-Bumis. why? some companies do not take AT ALL applicants who do not know mandarin. at first, i thought maybe that they are dealing with China and hence explain the reason for that. after more research was done, some of the companies were totally local companies. if they are totally local, there's no need for such a requirement, right? thats one... second, a fren of mine was applying for some jobs few years back and almost all were rejected. being an open and positive minded, she asked why - with the intention to improve herself. more than 50% of the response she got were because she's wearing a 'tudung'. believe me, she was at rage!!! third... this happened recently to another fren of mine. she was trying to make a business deal with this one particular company. everything was going on alright until the last few minutes. the manager came to her and tell her that, everything was ok except one unchangable fact... she is a malay. after that, not only was she rejected, she was also humiliated. how? lemme skip that part :) and i want to also justify that the reason i mention some of the few cases i know here is not to create more anger and hatred nor to widen the gap between the two, but to show that we, the Bumis, are aso discriminated against. this is one of those unspoken and unwritten...

this is why i think the Bumis and non-Bumis are even. however, this doesnt mean i am agreeing with all the craps which are going on. while it is true that most of the companies are privately owned and hence, its up to them to do whatever they wanna do, if the government do take away the rights, what do you think on the future of malaysia, at least socially? a huge racial imbalance may occur. idealistically thinking, this is what the government wants to avoid; hence justifying the quota or what not.

anyway, this shouldnt be the issue here. if the thread is about ppl throwing tantrums towards each other, i personally think it should be locked. it serves no purpose other than breeding hatred and anger - which can obviously seen in the last few msgs. tp if it is to discuss on how to solve the issue, the attitude which we, recommers, have to adopt for a better malaysia, that is fine. and ahh... also, stressing the points wrote by chenchow and wpyeoh, it is not about what your country can do for you but more about what you can do for your country :)

heh, i am sorry if the points are in a very inorganize manner or tunggang langgang. im in quite a hurry right now since i have some more preparations to make, to give a warm welcome to hurricane jeanne, hehehe...

[gonjeng]

Anyway, that UMNO guy should be arrested under ISA for trying to incite racial disturbance. :D

hahaha couldnt agree more on that. the word 'menumpang' should NOT be used nowadays since there is no such thing anymore. maybe sb has to complaint this to PM or whoever responsible to take action. but then again, as if they are going to put UMNO member into ISA ay? hehehe, sad but true :)

[digimushu]

yeap yeap, agreed!

The last few posts sound very uhmmmm....emotional? Looks like nerves were touched. All things considered, I say bumi/non-bumi are even. Much as i am saddened by the fact that the race card is still played on politics but the discriminations stops with us. We are the future of Malaysia. If we dont do it, who will? I dont deny the fact that chenchow's vision is a little bit too utopian. But then again, it is that kind of vision that will bring the dream of unity closer to reality.

Gonjeng, stay safe and hopefully i can congratulate u again for surviving the 3rd hurricane to hit FL in a month :D

[Thirdshifter]

For the first time, Phantom i agree with you! just the Yale part..Yeah!!! Big deal! Yale sucks anyway.. as i use to call it, the ghetto, pun intended :D.

I have a friend who's graduated from a comunity college, didn't even transferrred to state!.. was kicked out of high school but this guy is probably going to be the next Einstein. Well not really but he's only 20 and i'm already impressed.

Also, has anyone else notice that almost all ivy league schools are located in a bad neigbourhood?

And the UMNO guy he should be reminded that there's non-malays living in Malaysia too.

As a Malay i denounced all the racist policies in Malaysia! Please do not blame us Malays as this is not our fault.

I blame MCA! I blame MIC and all the other race component parties of BN for not fighting truthfully for your rights my dear non-Bumi non-priviledged and without any special rights friend.

To futher ignite the fire, I wasn't born in Malaysia. My father is not a Malaysian citizen, Heck I'm not a citizen, just PR (red I.C)but I'm half Malay so i get all the oppurtunity for subsidies etc. from the goverment.. i can be a Class A contractor (only Bumi's can get contracts directly from the goverment) i can apply for scholarship for my unborn kids who might not be a Malaysian citizen too :D list goes on.. Sucks to be a non-bumi.. seriously. no if or buts.

I wish the pro-malay right people could step into a non-Bumi shoe for one day and taste life in Malaysia.

[Schye]

An undeniable fact we have here is, we still have a written law on BUMI and NON-BUMI. and YES, we still have scholarship offered by JPA (= government) which is ONLY for BUMI. JPA is sending around 100-200 students to Japan each year who will be able to enter universities directly and the scholarship is for just BUMI. (compared to diplomma course which is open to all.)

I could understand the feeling of lyzzy as I have friends who were denied by JPA too. However, instead of running away, I would say stay and fight for you right if you think that you deserve it. Giving it up means no improvements and nothing is going to be changed. Of course we should be thankful that we are better compared to a lot of other countries, but there are rooms to be improved.

The existence of racism is inevitable as its natural for human to group together with those have similarity with them. So I would say have more activities/festivals which would be joined by all races. An example will be rukun tetangga. By creating more similarity/shared memories, it will be easier for us to accept each other. Don't you think we can talk with any Malaysians we bump on the street in foreign lands? Its because we shared the same identity there, as a Malaysian. When we are in local university, it will be easier for us to be friends who speak the same language, or from the same hometown, play the same games etc. I think in creating the feeling of living under one roof will help in getting rid of racism. However, still, as long as we don't get rid of any written law/constitution and replace it by EVERYONE is the same by the law, nothing will be changed. (out of topic?)

I think we should start from ourselves by accepting others and then start to influence others around you. Both phantom and lyzzy have their points from their different point of view. Its nice to see that in the forum as we are here to share and learn form each other. In fact, Recom is a good example of platform which form races integration. As we have created one more similarity = we are Recommers ;)

sorry for this inorganised reply .. :oops:

[lyzzy]

To phantom

Lemme just summarize this.

Show me a bumi who's in Cambridge/ Imperial who applied for the JPA scholarship but was rejected. Just show me ONE. He must have applied for the scholarship, btw.

I can show you at least 30 non-bumi students who are in Imperial/Cambridge who applied for the scholarship but did NOT GET IT.

It's Cambridge. You go through a RIGOROUS ADMISSION PROCESS. I know, I been through that. And I got rejected. And I'll tell you, that's NOTHING compared to a state uni. Everyone can get good education no matter WHERE they are, but how many people can get into Cambridge?

Let me pose this question to phantom, if given the choice, would you go to Cambridge or to a state univ? If you were accepted into Cambridge, but didn't have the money to go, and your friends who were accepted into a state univ got free money from the government purely because of race? Would you be angry? Would you question the system? These are hard questions.
________
Mazda Persona (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Mazda_Persona)

[Thirdshifter]

Lyzzy, if your parents could cover up some of the school fee to go to yale.. i don't think you even deserve a scholarship. Well if i was JPA i would say no too. I would reserve my money for the poor people.

I could've applied for JPA sponsorship when i was in the new haven too. I didn't because i had a thirdshift job (thats where the name came from) and my parents helped me out with the rest.

I rather send a poor kid to a State university then to an over priced education in an Ivy league school.

One ivy league fee could pay probably for 2-3 that are going to a state university. You do the math.

[lyzzy]

Thirdshifter,
'
COULD YOU PLEASE NOT MAKE GENERALIZATIONS. THIS IS FINANCIAL AID. FINANCIAL AID.

I REMEMBER WHEN I GOT MY SPM RESULTS. I WAS CRYING AND I REMEMBER FOUR MONTHS OF CRYING.

DO YOU KNOW WHY? BECAUSE I COULDNT GET JPA. BECAUSE UNLESS SOME MIRACLE CAME ALONG, I COULDNT GO OVERSEAS TO STUDY

ITS FINANCIAL AID. MY PARENTS PAY VERY LITTLE.

I COULDN'T GO OVERSEAS TO STUDY. AND I WORKED VERY HARD TO GO TO GET FUNDING FROM YALE.

I'M ANGRY BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHATSOEVER WHAT I HAVE BEEN THROUGH SINCE THE DAY THEY RELEASED MY SPM RESULTS.

I WORKED HARD SINCE MAY LAST YEAR. MY MOM WAS CRYING TO BECAUSE SHE KNEW I COULDN'T GO OVERSEAS.

I DON'T OWE THE GOVERNMENT ANYTHING. MY BUMI FRIEND WITH 8AS GOT A JPA SCHOLARSHIP. 17 OTHER FRIENDS WHO HAD BETTER GRADES THAN HER DIDNT.




So what about the JPA scholar in Harvard. Should we take back her scholarship too? She's a bumi btw.

Ivy leagues offer opportunities that state does not. I'm really not going over that. That has been argued a GAZillion times on other message boards eg: Collegeconfidential.com . Please go check that out if you want to read the arguments.
________
herbal vaporizers (http://herbalvaporizers.info)

[Thirdshifter]

Maybe JPA didn't want to pay 50K/year for a friggin degree. I don't blame them. There's many alternative financial options and you seemed to have found them.

Also, You are not the only one being let down by JPA. You seem to take it so personally as if nobody but Bumi gets JPA's help. There's many on this board who are attending an equally "good" school such as Yale and they are non-Bumi.

You said your Bumi friend got a scholarship because she is a bumi, probably, i won't argue with that.. but i won't say that just because she is a Bumi she got it.. most likely, She had chose one of the JPA+ITM oversea programs and will continue her education in a less pricey school compared to Yale. Maybe JPA has a quota too for Ivy league sponsorhips. Maybe 60% Bumi 40% non-bumi kind of deal.. just like how they do it in Public Universities in Malaysia? Anybody here knows or heard of such thing?

True, You don't owe anything to the goverment. They are there because we had selected them. Your parents did! Blame them! They are the people who continously let the BN lead Goverment discriminate you. You however, owe Malaysia a lot! So when your done schooling in Connecticut where the weather pretty much sucks in the coming 6 months or so.. please go back and make a change if not for you.. do it for the sake of the next generation.

It's never to late.

[phantom]

To phantom

Lemme just summarize this.

Show me a bumi who's in Cambridge/ Imperial who applied for the JPA scholarship but was rejected. Just show me ONE. He must have applied for the scholarship, btw.

I can show you at least 30 non-bumi students who are in Imperial/Cambridge who applied for the scholarship but did NOT GET IT.

It's Cambridge. You go through a RIGOROUS ADMISSION PROCESS. I know, I been through that. And I got rejected. And I'll tell you, that's NOTHING compared to a state uni. Everyone can get good education no matter WHERE they are, but how many people can get into Cambridge?

Let me pose this question to phantom, if given the choice, would you go to Cambridge or to a state univ? If you were accepted into Cambridge, but didn't have the money to go, and your friends who were accepted into a state univ got free money from the government purely because of race? Would you be angry? Would you question the system? These are hard questions.


if i ever applied to UK,it will never be Oxbridge.

look,i applied to Caltech.They liked me becoz they even allowed me to send my SAT 2 results one month past the due date.the lady emailed me.so it showed they read my letters.e'thing.but trust me,my first choice was always not Caltech.it was a state uni.why?becoz why on earth would i ever want to spend my life in a uni one has to google to know how good it is and spent my 4 years in a uni with only 200 undergrads per graduating class and less than 2 ppl who shared the same land as mine?


saying that,i will be in state uni than cambridge.

hey..why dont u look this way,is there any malay who didn't win the JPA, did apply to cambridge and get into it?

r u sure someone is given scholarship becoz of their race alone?r u sure he/she is so darnnnnnnnnnnn stupid to be given scholarship based on race alone?r u sure if someone being accepted by a state uni in usa as being too dumb to be given scholarship?

isn't it weird u keep blaming race?isn't it weird u fail to see the other side of hill?

have u ever wonder about bumi students who didn't get into local unis amid thier 9 A's.is race a factor here?think about bumi students who have to be in form 6 with ppl who think becoz of his/her brown skin tone..he/she is dumb and dumb and dumb.

yeas,i freakin realized the bumis have more advantanges compare to the non-bumis... but when it comes from a racialist mouth like u,i think it is dangerous.

[qedx]

if i'm not wrong, a majority of the jpa scholars that go to the ivy league schools are non bumi. malays tend to flock at purdue :P

[lyzzy]

Thirdshifter,

No.

You got that wrong.

People get the JPA scholarship BEFORE they apply to univs. So it doesnt matter where they are going to university.

See here, after SPM results, the government releases the applications to apply for the JPA scholarship. Then, after applying, they choose the JPA scholars. THEN only do the JPA scholars apply to universities. And they don't place quotas. They are just happy where you go. It doesn't matter how much it costs.

One thing that irks me is that people don't do well.. they just go to some bloody state school. Come on, you are scholars! I would expect better. Don't give me the rubbish about state schools being better, there are still some points about Ivy Leagues which makes them all the better. Not everyone who goes to an ivy is smart, but the MAJORITY are. Likewise, the MAJORITY in the STATE school is prolly not as good as those in a Ivy. Of course there are a few exceptions ... but..

Why are all the presidential candidates and presidents(Clinton, Bush, Kerry, Nader, Lieberman, Wilson) from Ivies anyway? While they may not be the most wonderful people to hang out with, no one can deny that they are the most powerful people around.

phantom made a point about grades. Yeah sure. That's because there's real competition here, as you are fighting among the best in an Ivy.

I'll like to point this out again. There are people who do very well in state schools and become very successful. There are people who do badly in Ivies. But these are the minority.

I will probably never come back. I remember the four months. I remember how my mum was crying. Did your mum cry?
________
BMW 328 history (http://www.bmw-tech.org/wiki/BMW_328)

[lyzzy]

I'm not a racialist. I'm fightin for equal rights. Where have I said I hated bumis???? I'm just saying that you have so much opportunities than us and its bloody unfair.

saying that,i will be in state uni than cambridge.

Well, a lot of people don't think like you. The government sure doesn't. But they do in my friend's case. Why? Why? Maybe... for the small reason that he's not a bumi?


r u sure he/she is so darnnnnnnnnnnn stupid to be given scholarship based on race alone?

No, I'm not saying that. Your cut off point is prolly lower than ours.. that there are two people with similar grades with similar ECs, and one got in and the other one didn't. You know why.
________
swed (http://smokeweedeveryday.org/)

[Thirdshifter]

Why are all the presidential candidates and presidents(Clinton, Bush, Kerry, Nader, Lieberman, Wilson) from Ivies anyway? While they may not be the most wonderful people to hang out with, no one can deny that they are the most powerful people around.

Because their parents could afford it.. It's a school for rich people. Since these rich people give so much to the school every year they have good facilities and they recruit great talents. Ivy league is like going MRSM pretty much. Bunch up a lot of high grades students and thats it.

State school is a Poor man school.. So everyone gets an oppurtunity to get a degree. Poor people need a good job too :D


I will probably never come back. I remember the four months. I remember how my mum was crying. Did your mum cry?

Cried over the hardship of putting me into 50/kyear school? Hardly! I think she would've had tears of joy if i went to a state school instead.

edit:
Also If you never return and try to make a change for the future of Malaysia i doubt anybody will. Like i said before and will say it again. Bumi have no reason to change nor abolish any of the special right they have, when evidently most non-Bumi if given the chance would leave Malaysia in a heart beat.

[lyzzy]

Cried over the hardship of putting me into 50/kyear school? Hardly! I think she would've had tears of joy if i went to a state school instead.

F*ck you.

Now you are hitting under the belt. You are attacking personally when you don't even know my real position

I could never have even afford state school. State school is a bloody $15 000 per year, minimum. UCB and UCLA is much more. My parents are paying less than that for me to attend Yale.

Haven't you heard of financial aid? It's where people who are POOR like me have to apply for and they will give you what you need. It's not for rich kids.

Haven't you even courtesy by now to admit you are wrong? You play dirty, you attack people personally, and you are just this ignorant guy, who claims I can even afford state school. This is very like the mentality of a rich kid. "What, you can't even afford state school?"

edit: I'll just leave. Sooner or later, they are going to realize the massive braindrain (in fact they prolly already have). Till death do us part? Hardly. Why should I give to a country that has not given me anything? When this country that I'm in now is the one providing me my education? And round-trip plane ticket home? And funding/lotsa money over the summer to do research? They are not 'actively pursuing my foreign talent', it's just something they provide, international or foreigner or not.
________
herbal vaporizer (http://vaporizers.net/)

[phantom]

well,see....i understand ur plight.but please,think:

ur malay friends are reading recom too.

dont get me wrong,i am not a malay nor a chinese.

so,i dont deserve being mad at ur post.but i did becoz u sound unfair.look lyzzy,not e'body who went to state uni as dumb.some are very very smart.some have 1560 in their SAT.yeas not 1600.other have cgpa like 4.2 from high school.these ppl attend state uni for some reasons.likewise,it is not fair to say that jpa scholars who went to state uni as this and that.to begin with,have u ever wonder that these ppl dont have 1500 in their SAT?have u ever wonder these ppl dont find the justification of entering ivy leagues regardless how good/bad these academias are?these ppl dont have 1500 in the sat not becoz they are dumb but becoz they lack the english u see.a malay friend of mine attained 800 out 800 for his math.but only 420 for his verbal.he has good math.very good math.but he couldn't get into ivy leagues,say princeton becoz regardless how talented he is with his math,he still dont fit there.

so,please throw away that those attending state unis as dumb.becoz i applied to all state uni except caltech.and trust me,i still found them hard.and trust me,if i ever attend harvard,i would not sit back and drift,i will fight for good grades too.just becoz i am from a state uni doesnt mean,i will not be getting A at Harvard.

look again,i know the policy back home is unfair.yeas.

i salute u for speaking ur mind.i salute u for saying what u really think.two thumbs up for that.

at least u r not like my non-bumi compatriots who bashed their bumi friends in private settings and used special rights as the reason.i heard that becoz i was there.

it is sad that certain ppl think they are smart just becoz of their skin tones.it is indeed sad,when at one moment , u feign to talk nicely with a bumi and then at the next moment,u killed him using the special right.

most malays out there are innocence in this sense.they were awarded scholarship and they picked them up.they dont deserve being called dumb and names.

the other day i was at mc'd.a bunch of african american made too much noise.so i said to myself:

"shit,these african americans are darn noisy".

see,i just came out with a racist remark.i failed to see that Condoleeza Rice is an african american too.and how great she was when she answered the questions brought up by the 9-11 commision.

take a look,there are plenty of good malays out there.they deserve the scholarships.a small portion dont.and yeas,it is darn sad that someone being denied scholarship becoz he/she is a non-bumi.but think ms lyzzy,though u deserve being mad,have u ever wonder for a nanosecond that another malay outhere with the same results as urs being rejected by JPA too or given the course she never dreamt studying?have u ever wondered about the same girl who all her lifetime have wanted to be a doc has to put her dreams aside becoz of her results too?

yeas,ur malay friend with 8 As was lucky.but not all malay students as lucky as she was.not all malay students get every thing they wanted.some flunked too.some cried.i know this becoz even i personally understand the plight of not getting straight a1s and then all of sudden being rejected by JPA.i did appeal and the malay lady who took care of my application was great enough to help me.yeas,perhaps i was lucky.but most importantly,God knows i should be here.perhaps.

i wanna see more fair policy towards giving scholarship.but at the same time,i want see more ppl to stop thinking that other race as being less smart as they are.

well,and since u have brought up that 30 of ur friends who got into superb unis who didn't get the schorship,then i think we should coax the gov to set a fund for these kids or else give aid to these kids or else provide scholarships for stpm graduates.

wailing alone wont solve anything.

[topdog]

phew...it's getting hot in herrre.

with regards to above arguments, no one's totally right. and no one's totally wrong.

however third i must say that you were way off base about jpa supposedly preferring to send a poor student to a cheaper state school as opposed to an expensive ivy league school.

firstly jpa does not award scholarships based on need. i know a guy 1 year my junior whose dad is a frigging property developer who got sponsored to do medicine in the uk and he is not even malay!! i dare say that most malays who get jpa scholarships are from at least upper-middle class backgrounds.

secondly jpa doesn't dictate where you go. if you get into stanford and purdue (no knock on purdue), jpa won't make you go to purdue to save money. you go to the best school you manage to get into.

bottom line, your 'chances for admission into this or that school' has no bearing on how jpa picks its scholars...

[lyzzy]

Yeah, I agree that Malay students are in a sense, innocent as well. It's just that when some people say things like, "don't question these special rights" and "we don't have an advantage over you.".. I get very upset.

Sorry I tend to get very emotional with things that I care about... esp. special rights, Israel-Palestine situation, playing Mafia....

I'm not saying that state schools are no good, but... some people, after getting their scholarships, slack off, and they waste government money by doing poorly and ending up in some whatever place with whatever grades. It's such a waste, because I know some people would have really liked the chance as well. And most of these schools are small state ones. And I know that there are some smart people who choose a state uni over a better one, just that these people are rare. So when I say 'state uni', I mean a uni where people given the opportunity but didn't fully utilize it, and so they end up there. It's a generalization, but... I seen so many people who are like that, not only bumis but non-bumis (well, the non-bumis I've seen came from twinning programs eg. ADP)

So, yeah, we are cool, phantom?
________
Sauber F1.06 (http://www.bmw-tech.org/wiki/BMW_Sauber_F1.06)

[phantom]

well,i dont think u r being emotional.

well,u r stuyding at Yale.( the uni Lorelai Gilmore chose over harvard and the uni my fren said is drop-dead beautiful..no offense 3rd).so i am pretty sure u r very very very smart and i am pretty sure u r very outspoken just like most ivy league goers are.

but pls,dont be mad at the malays.there are just like u- a bunch of human.they are just like you,deserve being respected.

[qedx]

i agree with topdog, JPA selection criteria seems to be a bit random. though for non-bumis it does seem to be a bit stricter. I think it depends on your interviewers and a state- and race- based quota.

[wyeoh]

It is always interesting to see a heated debate between fellow Malaysians who are very opinionated about polarized issues. :) Though, I am sure we can reach a common ground and simply admit that the system is not perfect, in fact it is quite far from it.

As mentioned earlier, it is pointless to wail against it... work around it instead. Don't like what you see, try to make changes. Yes, you won't see them implemented overnight, but the smallest of changest is still one step closer to perfection.

lyzzy, I am sorry that you had to find the hard way of getting to Yale, but it is worth it. That journey you took has its own benefits. You might not take things for granted, or expect to be spoonfed. There is always a silver lining... we just have to look for it.

Though I must say that an Ivy League education is somewhat over rated. Is it better in general than other schools, perhaps... is it significantly better to warrant all the fuss, I doubt it. There are dumb jocks (generalization again) in Ivy schools, as there are smart folks in state schools. I definitely agree that by going to a State school, it doesn't automatically entitle you to being labelled cheap and dumb. Nor does going to Ivy Leagues entitle you to otherwise. It is what we make of our education, what we learn from it that counts. All schools have much to offer... as long as we are willing enough to learn from it.

After all, ain't the Ivy Leagues just a bunch of old schools tied together by a football game? :)

[Thirdshifter]

however third i must say that you were way off base about jpa supposedly preferring to send a poor student to a cheaper state school as opposed to an expensive ivy league school.

I didn't claim JPA does this, What i did say was, I rather have them send 2-3 poor kids to a cheaper school. The whole point of a sponsorship is to help people who can't afford it. Ofcourse if JPA did this, we probably just see few real qualified poor kids going abroad with goverments money.

Bumi or not should never be an issue, but it is. I dislike it and strongly had denounced any goverment policy that caters only to discriminate non-Bumi Malaysian. This however is not Bumi's fault alone. Remember, MCA and MIC is also part of the goverment. Most likely a lof of parents are voting for these people..and keeping them in business. Is it a Bumi fault for getting grants more easier? Or is it the fault of non-Bumi policy makers?

[chenchow]

I would say that the above discussions/debates is healthy for ReCom in the long run. Lyzzy, while I do not agree with everything you post, I would like to commend you, as phantom said, for sharing what's in your mind here in ReCom. ReCom, being a multiracial community, is a place, where we can discuss such issues objectively and share our awareness. It is much better than a lot of Malaysians who choose to bash other people at kopitiam or road side stalls.

I guess through these discussions, we get to see the reasoning behind each perspective. To set the record straight, while I may sound idealist, I do realize that there are a lot to be done to further improve Malaysia, and this is why Syamsul, Yusuf and many of us initiate ReCom, because we want to help Malaysia. This is our motherland. I have such mentality since long ago, and I was from chinese schools, and I would say that majority of students there, do have strong patriotism towards our country.

To those that have known me, whether I get JPA or not, does not change my aspiration of serving the nation, by being a civil servant. Both my parents are civil servants, and never in their dream would they think that I would get JPA Scholarship. Imagine that out of 450,000 SPM holders, only less than 1% get the scholarship. So, I would say that while JPA tries to select the best scholars, there is always an element of subjectiveness and luck. I have known a number of Malaysian Chinese who get 5As, 6As, 7As, 8As, 9As etc who have gotten JPA. Some of them are in ReCom now too. And some of them do come from poor background. I get JPA on third intake, and I swear that I have never submitted any appeal letter to JPA, and even if I don't get the scholarship, I would be as patriotic as I am today.

I think that often, when we look at this issue, we need to look from the positive side. I understand how hard it is, when some of the ReComers could be equally or perhaps more qualified than others here who have some luck in getting the scholarships. I can understand your frustration, however, I would say that by merely migrating abroad, it would not only not helping to solve the problems, it creates more problems about loyalty towards the country on the whole community.

On the issues of which universities are better, I guess it is really subjective. In terms of university prestigeness, we can see that Oxbridge etc would be more prestige. However, I would like to argue that what matters most is how one utilizes the opportunities provided to them. You could be studying in a small school with 5 (I am putting quantity into it just for the sake of illustration, I understand that it is unmeasurable) opportunities and you make use of 3 (it is subjective of how constitute make use). Or you could be studying in an environment with 100 opportunities, and you don't make use of any.

I guess I am drifting from the core issues here. Bring back to the issues, I guess, all of us need to play a part if we want to see a united front and progressive Malaysia. Each race or community has to give and take. We need to talk and share our view point, learn from one another. I must admit that I was smiling reading the posts here, because ReCom is Reborned. Scroll up and read the words on the top. "ReCom stands for Reborn Community, where it symbolizes the birth of a young and dynamic community, in which its members help one another to build a united Malaysia regardless of the differences in race, ethnicity or religion."

lyzzy, mind me share an opinion for you. I agree that you have been trying to put forth arguments with some evidences, however, personally, I would think that you would get your idea/argument/view point more accepted by fellow Malaysians in ReCom, if you try to keep your emotions controlled. Just my two cents.

Fellow Malaysians, lets keep up this debate~!

[lyzzy]

Change is always going to be hard here, not just in Malaysia, but in Asian countries in general. Even as children, we have this mentality not to question our elders, (and I'm making this generalization based on ALL Malaysians), look at schools even. How many people raise their hands to answer questions posed by teachers? It is a part of our upbringing, part of our culture. We do not have many political debates by students in Malaysia (you should hear some of the political debates by students here!) nor any active participation in politics. Again, there are exceptions, but these are the minority.

I would love to get involved with politics, in the opposition parties, to question some of the policies implemented by the government. However, we have very weak opposition parties, leaving most of us no choice but to work with the government. Third says that we should not vote for BN (if I got him correctly) but this senario is near impossible in the minds of many Malaysians. Why? Because we do not have a multiracial party. I would love to see a moderate Malay party around here that could work with DAP. Keadilan would be one, but .. and they refuse to work with DAP. As a non-bumi, I feel that the views of PAS are too extreme in the minds other non-bumis who are not Muslims. Therefore Keadilan would be a good bet, however they are working way to closely with PAS for me to feel secure. But this is getting out of topic

And because of this weak opposition situation, we do not have a better choice than to work with the government. This situation is all skewed, people working with the opposition are all 'skewed' in the minds of the public. They are weird. Whatever you may say, the best democracy is one where there are two main parties, each able to provide sufficient competition for each other to improve eg. UK/Oz/US. And there is no political future for one from the opposition, you'll never become a minister, you'll never get the privillages and perks of holding a post, people will just condemn you, the newspaper will just pick on your words, with the exception of a few non-mainstream papers. And since the mass media controls so much of our lives, most of the public is going to hate you. Plus there's the ISA.

And you'll never be recognized in terms of your contribution towards Malaysia, well, not from the most of the public anyway.

And another, people in Malaysia love 'peace'. Or whatever their defiinition of peace. Anything that questions the government is troublemaking, even if its just constructive criticism.

Working under BN is not going to hold water for me, because my heart is working with the opposition.Yet I don't think I can stand being sneered at, being picked at, even though I know that all I work for is the formation of a stable Malaysia society. So, what should a person who wishes to help Malaysia achieve this goal of being fully developed and doesn't discriminate against races?

I don't know about the others' answers. But I'll imigrate to somewhere where I can make a difference.
________
O370 (http://www.mercedes-wiki.com/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_O370)

[littlebigone]

just wondering, people have been lambasting the education quota system, and all the unfair rules that benefit the bumi's. Say we take all these laws away and make it fair, will Malaysia live in harmony and in genuine unity?

I don't think so. I think that we have live in an environment where we have stronger mental constraints than judicial ones. I think that we will still have stereotyping and still have prejudices. I think that we would still walk with those who have the same skin color as us.

It is naive to blame the lack of racial unity on these laws. yes, they are unfair. yes, they may play a part in hindering racial unity. but we should look deeper and see the underlying causes of the problem.

i predict that if today, we just abolished all these laws. you will see the chinese rejoicing and taking advantage of the new system. malays will look at the chinese with more suspicion. they will seek to protect whatever they have. i feel that what abolishing these laws will do is simply open a new market in the country. a market that the malays currently have a hold on because of the law. i do not think that this competition for the largest share of the pie will help promote racial unity. i think that it will have the exact reverse effect. I feel that something must be done with our mentalities before we phase out these laws.

[lyzzy]

I think the laws are the cause of the problems. It's true that before the laws were implented, there was the riots. However, there is a large number of bumi professionals now, and a huge number of upper-middle class bumi families.

The laws are only going to exabercate a growing tension between races because one race have privillages, and the other doesn't. It causes resentment.

For a while, yes, but in the long run, the bumis will catch up with once they realize that they will have to fight for the share of the pie.
________
Yamaha GX1 (http://www.yamaha-tech.com/wiki/Yamaha_GX1)

[digimushu]

aiseh... this thread started off as a spark, flared like a tinderbox and then just quieted down...time to sift thru the ashes to see if anything is salvageable...

Hrmm...
Yes, i have to admit, to the chinese, the quota system seems very unfair. Yet, as Dr. M said, he is just amazed at the resourcefulness of the chinese. No matter what kind of hold, quota or any other red tape that the government impose on them..they manage to still come up on the top(generally). Unfortunately, we are all by-products of a colonialist society, the result of an imperialist 'divide and conquer' rule. Although the invaders came and left, the traces of their programming is still strong. as littlebigone said...its all in our heads.

having said this, i recall having dinner with my mainland chinese friends here a few nights ago. During the dinner, we all talked about m'sia, china , us,..etc. I told them, the reason why M'sia is not as 'nimble' as korea, china and japan is that we are still 'separated'. We dont have a national identity, unlike them. we have place our racial identity ahead of our national identity. we dont have one nation, one voice and the point is: we will never get anywhere if we are not united. however, what can we do to unite ourselves?

I still feel there is hope yet for M'sia. maybe i'm just overly optimistic. Lyzzy is right, there is no multiracial party in m'sia. but then think again, will the chinese ever support one? or the indians? or even the Malays? Every race has their own agenda and rights they want to protect. why, you might ask? well, it goes back to the main idea of the division in our minds. we have no unity. no one voice. just many voices, with different thoughts and conflicting wishes.

last of all,does bumi only refer to Malays? or include people like the Dayak, iban and orang asli? if you look at sarawak and sabah, many tribes of people still live in longhouses with no electricity and running water. I sincerely hope that one day, the socioeconomic condition of all races will be equal. I want to see everyone getting an equal chance in education and i know i'm gonna get nailed for this but i'd like to see more money from the resources in sabah and sarawak go to education for underprivileged children in the rural areas, rather than going to building white elephantsin peninsular m'sia. If anyone has the chance, just go there and see for yourself how poor the resources are there.

we need more equal distribution of resources. in a place like singapore, distribution is easy because it is a small country. the people have one identity because they know they have no chance if they dont.

In the end, it only boils down to a chicken and the egg question. does equality come from a level playing field? or does a level playing field comes from equality? Contemplate on it.

[aquila]

lyzzy,

you can either change the government from outside or from within... if it really seems that impossible to join the opposition, join BN and change it from within... fight the internal forces, change the mainstream parties... bit by bit, little by little you will make a difference...

i totally understand your frustrations and desire to leave the country for a "better" place... but what is a better place? where else should you make a difference if not in your own country? If you're an immigrant, do you honestly think that your views will be respected as much as those of your local political opponents?

the problem with malaysians is that too many people want to leave, too many people think that western countries are "better", more superior. is it really so? It distresses me greatly to see so many of my peers aspiring to work overseas... it matters not if they aren't able to hold top positions or make a significant difference in the lives of others or their own... as long as they immigrate to a "better" country, all will be well... ever heard of the glass ceiling, yall?

Is US/UK/Aust really better than Malaysia? They may be first world, but Malaysia is your homeland and I'm sure most of your relatives and friends are still in Malaysia. Doesn't it feel good to go home after a long time spent overseas? The feeling of warmth and home floods me everytime I go home. Well, after you spend a while here in the States, you'll know what I mean.

Malaysia is not perfect, and is FAR from being perfect but it is still home. I daresay it's your responsibility, my responsibilty, everyone's responsibility to go home and serve in one capacity or another after graduation. Don't work for the government if you don;t want to. Join the private sector, you'll still be contributing to Malaysia's GDP.

I may sound like an overzealous patriot here but seriously, think about what I have said. US didn't become what it is today if not for Adam Smith, Franklin, etc. People make a country what it is. Americans made US free and ehem, now some are making it less free. Your country is what you make of it. Want to see the level of freedom and equality enjoyed by Americans, work like American activists in Malaysia! Write letters, join demonstrations, take part in politics, vote, etc! Otherwise, don't tell me that the government has done nothing for you. You will have done nothing to change the problems you see if you leave. What's the use of berating the government and whining if all you're gonna do is leave?

Great leaders don't escape from problems. They fight the system and work towards change, no matter how gradually change comes. I challenge you today to work to change the system that you so detest.