Misguided Aims of BTN

[misled_youth]

Wawasan
Menjadi sebuah organisasi awam yang unggul dalam memupuk semangat patriotisme serta menjadikan rakyat setia kepada Kerajaan.

Objective
v. Penyelidikan mengenai keberkesanan dasar-dasar kerajaan dan kajian mengenai jurang kerenggangan antara kerajaan dan rakyat.

http://www.btn.gov.my/default.asp?page=101

If this isn't "Love BN Brainwashing Camp", then what is it?
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[raizz]

hahaha....wut a post. I don't really think it's a form of brainwashing but is rather more like a camp to help people understand who should they be thankful to and condemn. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the idea of conducting BTN is totally right, but we should take into to account the vast number of people from different age groups that are being sent to the camp. Citizens from 17 till 50 year old adult has been to this camp, my mom who was once Wanita UMNO head has been there at the age of 55.

I mean if the whole idea of the government conducting this camp to change the way people look at them, it's not gonna work. It'll only effect those in their youth, and not adults. WHY...simply because I think most of the Malaysian youth today have no strong fundamental belief on what's right for the country and what's not. I'm glad to see people here are quite aware about a lot of stuff thats's happening in and out of the country, but whut about the other 5 million youth out there. As for adults, age 40 and above I'm pretty much sure with all the experience they have in life, nothing could ever change their point of view. Experience is the best form of education, no doubt about it.

As for the youth, they are not being brainwash, but the government is simply taking this advantage of their adolescent state of mental skills by patronizing them to think what ever that has been done in the past is for the good of the nation. It's simply because majority of the youth today are a no-brainer, and that a fact so there's no brain to be washed. And if we try to be critical and come forth critizing the government, I'm definitely sure someone will be there to shut you up....sadly that's how the government works today. Like it or not...it's somehow dictative method that I think in the long run will both benefit and at the same time be a setback to the country.

[misled_youth]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

However, we must expose the TRUE OBJECTIVES and VISIONS of BTN to the masses.

Patriotism is (among) the last refuge of the scoundrel.

We must differentiate what's good for our fellow Malaysians, and what's good for the powers-that-be.

ps. I love my new Avatar. Paint Shop Pro7 4 Life!
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[USSDefiantNX74205]

menjadikan rakyat setia kepada Kerajaan.

and

Penyelidikan mengenai keberkesanan dasar-dasar kerajaan

I'd like to see them explain this. I have no idea what the BTN is, but if its some patriotism thing, why 'kerajaan'?

[raizz]

I think it's wrong to put patriotism and the government together. I mean u can be very patriotic of ur country and the same time be against the current government aka opposition party. Thats why BTN or Biro Takhta Negara is an organization under the government to pupuk both of this semangat, 'pro-government and partriotism'. As the current status-quo, BN is the one giving orders to BTN on what should they implement in their camp. Let see if one day, DAP or PAS or BA is to lead the country, then they'll full authority to dictate the organization of the camp. But offcourse the partiotism material will still remain the same

[el_empty]

i remember those days when we were sent to numerous kem binadiri and kem semangat and kem whatever... all day long we listen to random dudes preach about the gospel of government love, then at night we main gitar, masak mi, watch movie, sing song, and on the last night we have malam kebudayaan where ah kow, gopal, and ahmad join hands and hug each other.

what a ** waste of time

[chenchow]

Personally, I agree with raizz about people's mind. I would say that it brings upon another perspective, and frankly from what I learn from BTN, is not about BN or anything, but a lot of those physical teamwork and group work, like jungle trekking, group teamwork of playing lingo, treasure hunt, marching, etc..

I would look at it as a Team-Building event, and one of the activity that I find very meaningful is that they ask us to count how much our parents have spent on us, and they actually spent a couple of hours talking about how we should respect our parents and appreciate their sacrifice etc...

[cquayhl]

Stated aims are one thing...but what goes on at BTN? It would be interesting to look at some of the materials. I recall some quite sinister conspiracy theory sorts of things going by.

Could someone who's been to BTN maybe give us a broad overview of what it's like and how it's organised (not anecdotes), and pdf the handouts and post them?

Charis.

[phantom]

i been there once coz my beloved jpa is paying my tuition and giving me allowances.

nobody is telling me " pls vote BN and kiss BN's ass".

i have heard again and again about ppl saying BTN is the gov's way of brainwashing our young generations.

well,i didn't experience one and so do any of my anti-BN,anti-gov friends.nobody ever said, " BTN ni nak suruh aku undi BN lah tu, ".

basically we are divided into groups and we did so many fun things together,including crossing the swap area. i ended up losing my shoes and walked with stockings back to the camp.i also lovedddddddd the cross-country run where i arrived among the earliest amid my constant velocity. hint: dont accelerate and left others too early during the cross-country becoz at the middle of the road u gonna be pancit and have to walked. :lol: still make me laugh till today especially knowing that i beated the dudes one year older than i am (overtaking them during the cross-country run was one of the greatest moment of my life.haha)

the only part that i hated was when there was this examination stats being readed to us. it was freakin' annoying when some ppl think certain race is born to be smart while others are underachievers.that's the part i fully hated and hence i complaint at the evaluation sheet and the man in charged perused and answered my complain. i didn't remember his answers though but i know they still do that till now.

i have to agree with Chenchow,BTN can be either stupid or enjoying..depending on how u preceive it. i love it becoz i made tons and tons of new friends and get to do new things that i wont that if i just sit and watch tv at home.plus,it opens up the new prespective of looking at " smart " ppl from other prepatory colleges.

then again, i disagree making BTN compulsory. it should be an option though. but if i am waiting for SPM's results i'll go. others can beg to differ.

[DecentMerson]

hmmm BTN...

still remember the facilitators laughed at our creative
imaginations.... Bawa Telur Negara..... hehehehe...

anyway... it is not that bad... although the place that we stayed is quite badly maintained... (if they did ever maintain it...)

the food is horrible... but other than that... it is not bad.... expected it to be worse... but surprisingly, it is not a bad 5 days 'holiday'.... do enjoy urself as this might be ur last time seeing some of ur frens before u guys go ur own way.... that's the case for ATU 10... where the BTN is held at the very end of our semester...

hmm... the activities are really a waste of time... the discussion held are nothing much.... the food is horrible.... (have to reiterate this... it is really really horrible.... ) and the so called fitness test... is not a test.... they extend the time to the extent where u can walk the entire course and yet reached the finishing line before the time limit.... but, u ppl better jog or run or anything.... they might change their policy without further notice....

other than that.... the marching is nothing much too..... generally, it is a great breakaway from modern life, but we still uses our handphone... luckily i was using maxis.... oh yar... and the Big2 session... the Bridge sessions.... and last but not least... the Karaoke and Barbeque night...

the test is also quite simple... if u can remember ur form 4 and 5 history.... it is no big deal.... most questions are really based on ur general knowledge... and common sense tooo... if u have the habit of reading the papers and periodicals, u are well on ur way of scoring the test....

:lol:

last but not least... ENJOY..... HAVE FUN.....

oh yar... if they have the flying fox there.... persuade ur facilitator to let u guys have a run on it.... it's great.... but too bad.... our campsite's flying fox's equipment is not safe to use.... so, no fun for us.....

making it compulsory is not a bad thing... since if they dun, nobody will attend it.... and they shld include more informative and worth listening discussions.... and pls ask them to update their slideshows.... becoz there are outdated and ask them to discuss those sensitive issues.... no point having BTN if they are not addressing those issues.... (still remember the presenter just skipped the slides that show the SuQiu issue right before our eyes...) hello, we are not blind and not dead... and we are listening and looking at the slideshows.... what are there that they must hide????

[ElansarGelmir]

basically we are divided into groups and we did so many fun things together,including crossing the swap area. i ended up losing my shoes and walked with stockings back to the camp.i also lovedddddddd the cross-country run where i arrived among the earliest amid my constant velocity. hint: dont accelerate and left others too early during the cross-country becoz at the middle of the road u gonna be pancit and have to walked. :lol: still make me laugh till today especially knowing that i beated the dudes one year older than i am (overtaking them during the cross-country run was one of the greatest moment of my life.haha)


Poor thing. I hurt my heels very badly during the Kem Bina Insan... That's a real waste of time.

nobody is telling me " pls vote BN and kiss BN's ass".

i have heard again and again about ppl saying BTN is the gov's way of brainwashing our young generations.

well,i didn't experience one and so do any of my anti-BN,anti-gov friends.nobody ever said, " BTN ni nak suruh aku undi BN lah tu, ".


That i'm not really sure . . . Although my group facilitator is very cool (bought us KFC because she agrees that the food served is inedible), I sort of remembered her reminding us on the last day of the camp, "Ingat, bila balik nanti, kamu patut tahu bagaimana hendak berterima kasih kepada kerajaan. Bayangkan kerajaan masa depan bukan lagi kerajaan sekarang yang menaja pelajaran kamu ke luar negara. . ." That really put me to rage, but i forgave her because she was nice to us all the while. Decentmerson, did u hear her saying that? I heard her telling us the during the last meeting when everyone's preparing to leave the surau. The way she tells us is like a mother telling her children "don't be Si Tenggang".

Personally, I agree with raizz about people's mind. I would say that it brings upon another perspective, and frankly from what I learn from BTN, is not about BN or anything, but a lot of those physical teamwork and group work, like jungle trekking, group teamwork of playing lingo, treasure hunt, marching, etc..

Yes, that is true. We can draw other perspectives from BTN, like building team spirits, develop analytical skills and create a strong network of bondings with other friends whom u are not going to see for the next four years.

BUT, does that mean that the govt should continue exploiting BTN as their propaganda media? Does that give a good excuse for students to continue to be brainwashed by the govt? Is it alright to get the youths to hate certain races just because the program "brings upon another perspective . . . physical teamwork, and group work, like jungle trekking, group teamwork of playing lingo, treasure hunt, marching, etc..."?

Why can't we have BTN which is more Malaysia centralized in lieu of "Malaysia under the leadership of UMNO"? Loving Malaysia doesn't mean loving the ruling party.

Thats why BTN or Biro Takhta Negara is an organization under the government to pupuk both of this semangat, 'pro-government and partriotism'. As the current status-quo, BN is the one giving orders to BTN on what should they implement in their camp. Let see if one day, DAP or PAS or BA is to lead the country, then they'll full authority to dictate the organization of the camp. But offcourse the partiotism material will still remain the same

Sigh... unfortunately, this might be true. But that does not mean that it is OK for BN to do that as well. They make it compulsory for students to attend their "why BN is good" ceramahs? That's a violation of human rights!

the only part that i hated was when there was this examination stats being readed to us. it was freakin' annoying when some ppl think certain race is born to be smart while others are underachievers.that's the part i fully hated and hence i complaint at the evaluation sheet and the man in charged perused and answered my complain. i didn't remember his answers though but i know they still do that till now.

Yes, this is the part that I do not agree with either. It does not help to motivate others by comparing the intelligence of other races. Then what's next? A group of students will say, "it's ok for us to do poorly in SPM because it has always been in our genes? (Malay Dilemma)". Somehow, I don't think that will work. If they want to show those statistics, then at least reason out with the figures shown and then get us to brainstorm ways to improve the statistics. That is what I call a fruitful BTN.

[misled_youth]

Well put people! I just love how you guys can put all my eratic post into proper perspectives.

Patriotism does not equate gratitude to BN.

But in the case of BTN, it is clear that patriotism has been hijacked by BN's self serving agenda. I remember the lovely budak kerek and learned chenchow once describing - that AFTER BTN, they realised how grateful and lucky they are, and that their forefathers have suffered to much to give them what they have today - so on and so forth.

I question if those are really their words, or are they regurgitating what have been repeated to them in songs, speeches, ceramah's, sketches, videos, napkins, workbooks, underwears that were provided during BTN stint.

See, this happens everywhere. You guys in US would be familiar with the, "Uncle Sam wants You!" posters. Sure, it's not as blatant as BTN's subliminal messages, or propaganda videos, but it harps the same tune - Patriotism - which is solely aimed at maintaining the status quo and ensuring the ruling elite class goes unchallenged.

We have seen the effects of such forced hypnosis. One particular ReCom member (*shudder) vehemently (albiet illogically) [edited out of good taste].

In closing, I would like to reitirate that we don't need BTN. We need better schools. We need funding for extra-corriculum activities. We need more playgrounds. We need leadership by example.

We don't need brainwashing programs. We don't need PLKN. We don't need moral studies. We don't need internet censorship. We don't need UUCA.

Shalom.......
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[theT]

sometimes people need to be reminded that they live in this country. for me, government does not equal BN. government is the body chose by people to run the country.

I know a lot of people who can't wait to migrate to other country, even when they're still in malaysia. not because the country has doing unjust to them, but they simply can appriciate what the country has gave to them. I don't blame them, they have no one to remind them about it.

[el_empty]

not because the country has doing unjust to them, but they simply can appriciate what the country has gave to them

what did the country give?

[masterof_none]

But in the case of BTN, it is clear that patriotism has been hijacked by BN's self serving agenda. I remember the lovely budak kerek and learned chenchow once describing - that AFTER BTN, they realised how grateful and lucky they are, and that their forefathers have suffered to much to give them what they have today - so on and so forth.


What's wrong with that?. I see nothing wrong of seeing people being grateful. If our parents has done so much to us, should we be grateful? or should we just say, naaah - Parent's brainwashing session. of course parents are not perfect. Or maybe you have other ways of being grateful, such as criticizing them. That might be one way of being grateful too. (maybe ).


I question if those are really their words, or are they regurgitating what have been repeated to them in songs, speeches, ceramah's, sketches, videos, napkins, workbooks, underwears that were provided during BTN stint.


We're in the US here experiencing the same thing. Are those words
"War on Terror" and "Saddam Hussein is evil" sounds familiar to you?
All government has their own agenda and propaganda. Otherwise, the country would be chaos - people leaking secret information, divided, etc.


See, this happens everywhere. You guys in US would be familiar with the, "Uncle Sam wants You!" posters. Sure, it's not as blatant as BTN's subliminal messages, or propaganda videos, but it harps the same tune - Patriotism - which is solely aimed at maintaining the status quo and ensuring the ruling elite class goes unchallenged.


Uncle Sam wants you. You'll be amazed how many people here wish they won't get drafted (or maybe only people in California, I don't know other states such as Idaho). But being American as they are, still being patriotic and will go if they have to. They go, usually , because they believe that they can make world (or Iraq, if they got drafted to Iraq) a better place. Have you read a news on a famous football player who quit playing footbal to serve for US Army? (and got killed in Afghanistan) . That's how patriotic they are. (of course, you can find a counter example, like Charles Jenkins (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4047291.stm)case

The way I see things is this. Malaysians in general still think that they are inferior to other people, for example, the US. They think that country such as US is the perfect example , so that we should follow whatever they are doing.

The answer here is no. We have our own complicated society, and we need to handle it by ourselves. We don't need the same Black and White (or Asians) analogy for our country, however, we do need to learn what are the things that they have done (and which one that they screwed up) , so that we could avoid them.
and tell you the truth, from my experience - Americans are much more blindly patriotic (and support the current government) than we are. But they're still doing fine.

BTN (or NS, if you want) on the one hand, might be seen as a brainwashing session, to a certain extent, I believe that's true (read: Govt has done much for you, you just don't realize it, therefore, you must be grateful). On the other hand, it does tries to make us believe that this is our land. And whatever you do , you make sure that it's the best for the country. And the country, as complicated as it is, need concensus from all people. One man show usually doesn't work (Unless we live in the Alexender the Great era).

Thus, it's our responsiblity to mold it the way we want. If we live during the 1940's , that's basically what you're gonna discuss in this forum. (of course, maybe not recom.org).

That's just basically what people during the Tengku, Tan Cheng Lock, etc era, where they discuss what they want, in shaping the country.
These people are the 'founding Fathers' -people who found the country.

There's one movement by Dato Onn in forming 'Parti Malaya' but it failed. But why people at that time didn't like Parti Malaya?

That's the key point. If you could solve the riddle, you got what I mean.

[chiunlin]

the only part that i hated was when there was this examination stats being readed to us. it was freakin' annoying when some ppl think certain race is born to be smart while others are underachievers.that's the part i fully hated and hence i complaint at the evaluation sheet and the man in charged perused and answered my complain. i didn't remember his answers though but i know they still do that till now.

Yes, this is the part that I do not agree with either. It does not help to motivate others by comparing the intelligence of other races. Then what's next? A group of students will say, "it's ok for us to do poorly in SPM because it has always been in our genes? (Malay Dilemma)". Somehow, I don't think that will work. If they want to show those statistics, then at least reason out with the figures shown and then get us to brainstorm ways to improve the statistics. That is what I call a fruitful BTN.

Wait, if I remember correctly(ok, I was dozing off in the lecture, so I might be wrong), the purpose for the examination stats and the number of people from each races who graduated with first class honors from each university is not to show that one race is smarter than the other. Instead, the instructor was trying to remind the underachieving people to work as hard as the other race do.

[DecentMerson]

the only part that i hated was when there was this examination stats being readed to us. it was freakin' annoying when some ppl think certain race is born to be smart while others are underachievers.that's the part i fully hated and hence i complaint at the evaluation sheet and the man in charged perused and answered my complain. i didn't remember his answers though but i know they still do that till now.

Yes, this is the part that I do not agree with either. It does not help to motivate others by comparing the intelligence of other races. Then what's next? A group of students will say, "it's ok for us to do poorly in SPM because it has always been in our genes? (Malay Dilemma)". Somehow, I don't think that will work. If they want to show those statistics, then at least reason out with the figures shown and then get us to brainstorm ways to improve the statistics. That is what I call a fruitful BTN.

Wait, if I remember correctly(ok, I was dozing off in the lecture, so I might be wrong), the purpose for the examination stats and the number of people from each races who graduated with first class honors from each university is not to show that one race is smarter than the other. Instead, the instructor was trying to remind the underachieving people to work as hard as the other race do.

yeah... i do agree with Chiun Lin.... just like some of us need to be reminded abt who we are? where we come from?....

some of us do really need to be reminded about their abilities and their achievements.... i dun think there's such thing as which race is more superior or anything... just that their brought up and their mentality is different...

[ElansarGelmir]

They may be geniune in their intention, but there are still possible undesirable outcome from such statistics. Why do they have to polarize the scores through races? To tell the other race to work as hard as other race? Doesn't that just generalize what some people would not like to be generalized? That doesn't stop other people from being demotivated and to work harder.

Not everyone can draw things from other perspectives like other "gifted" people. If you want to remind them to work hard, then show a statistics of everyone, not every race. and say, "look, you should work as hard as this group (everyone in the range of A) of people to get better result." For goodness sake, we are one nation! Why do we keep shouting empty promises like One Nation when the govt itself keeps polarizing each race and distinguishing them by their differences? When will this stop?

[__earth]

They may be geniune in their intention, but there are still possible undesirable outcome from such statistics. Why do they have to polarize the scores through races? To tell the other race to work as hard as other race? Doesn't that just generalize what some people would not like to be generalized? That doesn't stop other people from being demotivated and to work harder.

I'm not supporting BTN but there is nothing wrong in using statistics to see who is what. It's just pointing out the fact. There is no need to suppress fact just because its the statistics say something undesirable.

What is wrong is generalization, not the statistics even though the stats itself encourages generalization. In fact, stats usually decribes the mean, not everything.

[jiinjoo]

Correlation does not imply causation.

[__earth]

Correlation does not imply causation.

heh, precisely :D

[kucingbiru]

there's a fine line between being grateful and being bribed.

[kucingbiru]

no there's actually a thick line, they make it thin.

[misled_youth]

Complacency and Acceptence of social norms is not in my vocabulary. I choose to form my only reality. I build my meta-frame of thinking from scratch.

I will not accept that what BTN teaches is good. It does not teach Malaysians that it Malaysia is their country. It teaches Bumiputera's that other races are mere "penumpangs" over staying their welcome.

As a salute to all those who feel like puking at the thought of BTN, I dedicate this PaintShopPro7 Image to you

http://www.auctiongripes.com/ims/pic.php?u=2580BuGMg&i=31960 (http://www.auctiongripes.com/ims/pic.php?u=2580BuGMg&i=31960)

ps. Holy COW! I coded in HTML! What's next? misled_youth learning the ballet?
________
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[phantom]

misled_youth wrote:

ps. Holy COW! I coded in HTML! What's next? misled_youth learning the ballet?

haha.

yeas,i agreed with u,if da gov leaded by BN made BTN compulsory just for their political gains,than it does sux. to use rules/regulation/police and jails to frighten those who opt not to attend are totally freakingly evil.

but you've said this too:


Sure, it's not as blatant as BTN's subliminal messages, or propaganda videos, but it harps the same tune - Patriotism - which is solely aimed at maintaining the status quo and ensuring the ruling elite class goes unchallenged.

We have seen the effects of such forced hypnosis. One particular ReCom member (*shudder) vehemently (albiet illogically) [edited out of good taste].


if not supporting BN creates no harm to your patriotisme and its virtues.why on hell then not supporting the opposition parties leads you into conclusion that the gov's supporters are helping some ppl maintaining their status quo and helping to ensure some ruling elite class go unchallenged?

[ElansarGelmir]

They may be geniune in their intention, but there are still possible undesirable outcome from such statistics. Why do they have to polarize the scores through races? To tell the other race to work as hard as other race? Doesn't that just generalize what some people would not like to be generalized? That doesn't stop other people from being demotivated and to work harder.

I'm not supporting BTN but there is nothing wrong in using statistics to see who is what. It's just pointing out the fact. There is no need to suppress fact just because its the statistics say something undesirable.


It may be a little too late to reply...

Hmm... i still dun see why they still have to group the results through races. There are other better and non-offending options.

[__earth]

Risking on digressing;

It may be a little too late to reply...

Hmm... i still dun see why they still have to group the results through races. There are other better and non-offending options.

it's just statistics. It does tell you something. We economists and statisticians don't lie. Politicians however, do and they are usually the one that manipulate the statistics result. It is the politicians that are probably making this as an issue in the first place.

Jeff Ooi is a recent classic local case (http://www.jeffooi.com/archives/2004/05/unhappy_chinese.php). He argues that Astro is racist simply because Astro published a statistic based on race. However, Astro has a legitimate reason to run that research because Astro needs to see who are their customers. Anybody with sufficient knowledge in econometrics would group the result through race if Astro pays that somebody to recognize who should Astro concentrate on in order to get more customers.

To show you why we can group the result based on race, for instance, I can make an econometrics model,

Wealth = alpha + beta*Malay + delta*Chinese + gamma*IndianOthers + error.

I fully expect delta to be the highest out of beta and gamma - which means the Chinese would be the richest out of the three. But this econometrics model itself is wrong since wealth would also depends on urban and non-urban. So,

Wealth = alpha + beta*Malay + delta*Chinese + gamma*IndianOthers + mu*Urban + error with mu a dummy variable

would help make the model better and that would lower delta since urban people are richer than people in the rural area.

I can construct a seemingly sexist model too:

income = alpha + beta*male + error with beta is a dummy variable

and show that being a male would earn a higher income than a being female, which is true in most dataset that I've seen.

Yet, that is not a sexist model. It's just data and telling you valuable information for many purposes, just like the first model I have given out. If you want to read about this model (with beauty included, go find daniel harmemesh on the net. He was my statistics professor, considerably well-known. I'm honored to be his student)

Furthermore, statistics is just information. You can do whatever. Interpretation however would be murkier (if that is a word).

This makes me wonder, does anybody have a data set on wealth in Malaysia? Maybe we could run a regression and see the result.

[el_empty]

yeah but i bet the random BTN trainers in kem wawasan weren't thinking about econometrics when divulging the details of exam performances.

furthermore, aren't exams supposed to be anonymous? why are exams profiled according to races in the first place? what the hell...

say _earth, daniel harmemesh is your prof? i wonder if you know joyce jacobsen - an economist in the same field + my prof. quite prominent as well. she's probably the smartest woman i've ever met.

[ElansarGelmir]

Uhmm... assuming that those in BTN has no knowledge in whatsoever u have just said ...

[i'm still blur]

it's just statistics. It does tell you something

How can statistics be JUST statistics when you say it TELLS us something? it gives informations, but in different perspectives. If the guys in BTN have the mere intention of getting students who do poorly in academics to study harder, would presenting the statistics in different ethnic groups be the most effective way to motivate those who are not doing their best in their studies? Or are they trying to point to the Malays and say, "You are lucky that you are here because based on this statistics, you should not get the scholarship"?

[__earth]

sure. the ppl in BTN probably didn't think of econometrics when the gave out the test.

How can statistics be JUST statistics when you say it TELLS us something? it gives informations, but in different perspectives.

Perspective is subjective. Information is objective. Like I said, interpretation is murky. Futhermore, it is opened to abuse by certain people.

and nope, I dont know joyce jacobsen but her last name does sound familiar. And yeah, Harmermesh taught me econometrics. He is a prof at Texas Austin (ROSE BOWL BABY!) but he was a visiting prof at Michigan last winter.

[ElansarGelmir]

I was just pointing out how u have contradicted urself... nvm, i did a bad job in making it clear.

What i want to point out is, as long as they still present statistics according to race, there will be hardly be one bangsa Malaysia. Malays will still be considered poor and more rights would have to be given to them. Poor non-Malays will be generalized as smart and rich and thus do not need aids and help from the govt. And sadly some people here are proponents to this...

[__earth]

again, statistics decribes the mean, not everything.

What i want to point out is, as long as they still present statistics according to race, there will be hardly be one bangsa Malaysia. Malays will still be considered poor and more rights would have to be given to them. Poor non-Malays will be generalized as smart and rich and thus do not need aids and help from the govt. And sadly some people here are proponents to this...

and that's generalization, not statistics. and look at it this way, without this statistics, nobody would know what is wrong. If nobody knows what's wrong, nobody can correct the problem.

Information is still information. You can't shove it aside if you hate it.

[ElansarGelmir]

again, statistics decribes the mean, not everything.

What i want to point out is, as long as they still present statistics according to race, there will be hardly be one bangsa Malaysia. Malays will still be considered poor and more rights would have to be given to them. Poor non-Malays will be generalized as smart and rich and thus do not need aids and help from the govt. And sadly some people here are proponents to this...

and that's generalization, not statistics.

Again, as i say, there are other better ways to present the statistics.

[__earth]

suggest one then. I'm an economist wannabe always love to hear how to better present the stats to others' ears regardless of the result of the stats.

[ElansarGelmir]

suggest one then.

I've already mentioned it.

[__earth]

care to point a link?

[ElansarGelmir]

If you want to remind them to work hard, then show a statistics of everyone, not every race. and say, "look, you should work as hard as this group (everyone in the range of A) of people to get better result."

the link is here.
http://recom.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1516&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

Although i have no knowledge in Economewhatever u have, with no basic idea of what a good model is, i know that the audience of that statistics is a group of bright young students who just finished their Form 5 high school and are easily manipulated with whatever propaganda the politicians have for them.

[__earth]

It will still converges to something like this:

Wealth = alpha + beta*Malay + delta*Chinese + gamma*IndianOthers + mu*Urban + error with mu a dummy variable

not much a difference.

But perhaps you are right. The presentation could be better. But I don't think anybody should really care on how good is it to the ears. What should be important is the result of the regression.

[ElansarGelmir]

well, at least it does not aggravate some people like Phantom (sorry buddy, have to use you as a living example) and avoid any racist comments/thoughts among people. It is different if u say suburbs ppl score lower (but that can be dangerous too, and what are they trying to prove? we should shift our focus to the suburbanites?). If they merely want to encourage ppl to perform better, then dun categorize the statistics (unless by the groups of: people who claim to have worked hard, people who claim to have been lukewarm in their studies, people who claimed to have slacked).

A very goodnight to you. :wink:

[digimushu]

From:

http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/sub/forum/story/0,5562,289329,00.html?



...
Indeed, in my opinion, some of the best soups are lumpy kinds, like lobster bisque or clam chowder. Homogenous consomme can be very bland.

While I was growing up my parents were very conscious to avoid identifying people by race. Once, when I told my mother I was going out to play with Ravi (an Indian friend of mine) and she asked me who Ravi was, I described him as the most tanned of my friends as I did not then have the capacity to classify people by race.

I was able to do so only after I attended Civics classes in primary school where the textbooks, which had accompanying illustrations, told stories about three friends - Ah Seng, who was Chinese; Ahmad, who was Malay, and Samy, who was Indian.

The objective of the Civics texts was doubtless a well-intentioned one to foster harmony between the races but it did teach me how to classify my friends racially.

While that ended the racial innocence of my childhood, the end of such naivety may not be a bad thing. Race, language and religion cannot be forgotten as they give us identity.

Nonetheless, languages can be learnt, religions can be changed and genetic scientists are finding that race is not a genetic but more an arbitrary classification.

Identity, even ethnic identity, is therefore a voluntary decision rather than an immutable fact of nature. The difficulty faced by the Eurasian community when trying to come up with a definition of Eurasian is perhaps the most direct example of this.

Yet, the child is the father of the man and our identity and choices are also shaped by early nurture.

Our cultures - the stories we heard, the values imparted to us and, unfortunately, the prejudices passed on to us - do shape us.

It is likely that while even ethnicity can be a choice, just as much as learning a new language or converting to another religion is a choice, we carry our childhoods with us. We cannot avoid this reality.

We can, however, learn new languages, understand other religions and appreciate different ethnic cultures.

Thus, perhaps, Singapore will never be consomme soup even if we all make the choice to identify ourselves as Singaporeans regardless of race, language or religion.

Instead, maybe we can aspire to be a chunky, spicy, thick stew, much like the curries all of us love and of which each community has its own special versions.

The important thing we must have is a common identity that is large enough to embrace all our individual identities - a common value system that is larger than our personal preferences.

Even then, such a value system may need to be developed and internalised over time and shared experiences in much the same way that the term 'American' gradually grew to embrace all the individual identities in the United States.

Racial issues are still a stark reality in the US - only five black senators have been elected to the US Congress.

However, Mr Barak Obama, the son of a white American Christian mother and black Kenyan Muslim father and whose stepfather is Indonesian, recently received 70 per cent of the popular vote to become Senator of Illinois (a state which is over 70 per cent white).

This shows that there are now enough people in some parts of the US who will look beyond skin colour and judge a man according to his character.

The Singapore Idol results give me hope that we are moving in the direction of Illinois. While voting for a pop idol cannot be equated with the electoral process, the results suggest that the Singaporeans who voted are no longer voting along racial lines - no longer judging someone by the colour of his skin but by his ability.
...

[__earth]

well, at least it does not aggravate some people like Phantom (sorry buddy, have to use you as a living example) and avoid any racist comments/thoughts among people. It is different if u say suburbs ppl score lower (but that can be dangerous too, and what are they trying to prove? we should shift our focus to the suburbanites?). If they merely want to encourage ppl to perform better, then dun categorize the statistics (unless by the groups of: people who claim to have worked hard, people who claim to have been lukewarm in their studies, people who claimed to have slacked).

In stats, you need to realize, like Jiinjoo has mentioned aptly, correlation is not causation. Again stats like the one based on races offer important insight on what is happening in the society. Some other thing one needs to remember when seeing the stat is not to generalize.

And stat without race in it gives almost no information, at least in our context. A stat with merely the mean, median and standard deviation is useless for almost anything. In statistics, race has been used extensively and there is no reason why we shouldn't do it. To not do it is to refuse others information.

And may I say further, this fear to analyze data that we don't like is one of the factors that contribute to the current status quo in Malaysia. Nobody is willing to address racial polarity and everybody trying to avoid. And when somebody addresses it, somebody on the other side shouts racism.

[ElansarGelmir]

And stat without race in it gives almost no information, at least in our context. A stat with merely the mean, median and standard deviation is useless for almost anything. In statistics, race has been used extensively and there is no reason why we shouldn't do it. To not do it is to refuse others information.



If people have used something for a long time, that doesn't mean that something is correct, and that doesn't mean we should follow them. And why would stat needs race for information? I don't get this point.

[__earth]

If people have used something for a long time, that doesn't mean that something is correct, and that doesn't mean we should follow them. And why would stat needs race for information? I don't get this point.

It's statistical math. The Russian pioneers, some of them were literally rocket scientists, would turn in their grave if you say its not correct. This branch of mathematics has contribute a lot to advancement in all branches of pure and social science. It is correct as long as its done properly.

Again, including race allows us to see disparity. without it, nobody can confirm any disparity statistically. but including just race is probably not a good model like I've stated in some previous post. Adding things like urban and rural, income level and other socioeconomic indicator will probably improve the statistical model.

If the ppl at BTN uses merely race without other socioeconomic indicators, then probably the result they produced is inaccurate. The problem at BTN is that they probably generalize the statistics. But that alone is the fault of the interpreter of the statistics, not the statistics.

The bottomline is, knowing that there is a disparity is an important piece of information. and recognizing disparity is the first step in building a better society. If we don't recognize the disparity, we can't address it, true?

But we are digressing at a fast rate. I leave you with an example of econometrics and another on how race is used to determine disparity.

Here is a description of linear regression from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_regression)

This is one report (http://www.usc.edu/schools/sppd/lusk/luskcenter/pdf/Race_Immigrant_Status.pdf) that shows how an econometric model that includes race as a factor can be used to show disparity.

[Liney]

Tak tau nak masukkan kat mana link ni.....


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/suaraprm/

just incase someone is interested to know the group comments on everything about the goverment......

Comment from Dr. Syed Husin Ali Presiden of Parti Rakyat Malaysia regarding BTN

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/suaraprm/message/848

[misled_youth]

What started out as a mini expose has turned into an awesome intellectual discussion.

It shows BTN has failed to subdue critical thinking among SOME of us - the some that believe in rational thought, and not allow themselves to be brainwashed.

BTN is a case of the blind leading the blind. They have given us the advantage, and we will rule this country.
________
ACRYLIC BONGS (http://glassgallery.tumblr.com)

[kennytang]

its been bout 1 year since i last posted smthg.
now this topic interests me. lol
well, imho, those camps we gotta attend (for jpa scholars) r kinda not useful, if not useless, to us.
well, btn is certainly much better than kem bina insan. i guess atu 10 who has attended the camp shd know what i mean.
its totally teaching us the wrong stuff.
oh ya, i am refering to the 2nd kem bina insan (for 2nd batch n those who skipped the 1st one), not the 1st one though.
i can still recall that i nearly dipped into deep shit coz of the complaint letter i sent to PM. lol
but to me, the kem bina insan is totally ridiculous.
y cant our camp be more meaningful?

[kennytang]

And why would stat needs race for information? I don't get this point.
i have to agree w/ u elansar (kinda weird to call u by this name)
well, in btn, they do have lecture/talk to motivate us.
when the speaker talked bout chinese being superior n smart n malays shd learn from them, the hall is dead silence. i mean like......... dead silence. u can sense smthg is wrong (though i am have asleep).
its true that u can motivate sm1 by saying this statement. but can u assure that no one ll get pissed n bestowed hatred in him/her of the race ---- chinese?

[ElansarGelmir]

If people have used something for a long time, that doesn't mean that something is correct, and that doesn't mean we should follow them. And why would stat needs race for information? I don't get this point.

It's statistical math. The Russian pioneers, some of them were literally rocket scientists, would turn in their grave if you say its not correct. This branch of mathematics has contribute a lot to advancement in all branches of pure and social science. It is correct as long as its done properly.

Again, including race allows us to see disparity. without it, nobody can confirm any disparity statistically. but including just race is probably not a good model like I've stated in some previous post. Adding things like urban and rural, income level and other socioeconomic indicator will probably improve the statistical model.

If the ppl at BTN uses merely race without other socioeconomic indicators, then probably the result they produced is inaccurate. The problem at BTN is that they probably generalize the statistics. But that alone is the fault of the interpreter of the statistics, not the statistics.

The bottomline is, knowing that there is a disparity is an important piece of information. and recognizing disparity is the first step in building a better society. If we don't recognize the disparity, we can't address it, true?

But we are digressing at a fast rate. I leave you with an example of econometrics and another on how race is used to determine disparity.

Here is a description of linear regression from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_regression)

This is one report (http://www.usc.edu/schools/sppd/lusk/luskcenter/pdf/Race_Immigrant_Status.pdf) that shows how an econometric model that includes race as a factor can be used to show disparity.

Dude, I hate to repeat and repeat and repeat myself. . . No one has learned about Econometrics at that point. Just because you know how statistics work at college level, that doesn't mean that others in the BTN have a clue of whatever principle lies behind those statistics. . . Those ppl out there are Form 5 freshies. . . Unless some of them pursue Analytical stats for personal interest, there's no way they will take into consideration of indicator and whatsoever...

The ground rule is clear. They want to motivate ppl to study. Thus, they dun have to use race in the stats. Unless, there are other points that they are trying to prove like how cultural differences can make someone more studious and blah blah...

I know u are knowledgable in Economics. Everyone can see that. But I doubt whoever see the statistics were thinking what u were thinking... Not at least at our level.

[__earth]

I know u are knowledgable in Economics. Everyone can see that. But I doubt whoever see the statistics were thinking what u were thinking... Not at least at our level.

It's not about me knowing my economics or you not knowing your stats.

It's about using stats to see disparity is alright. What's wrong is trying to generalize from the stats.

[ElansarGelmir]

I know u are knowledgable in Economics. Everyone can see that. But I doubt whoever see the statistics were thinking what u were thinking... Not at least at our level.

It's not about me knowing my economics or you not knowing your stats.

It's about using stats to see disparity is alright. What's wrong is trying to generalize from the stats.

And how well does it serve its purpose?

[__earth]

ask yourself this, how does information helps?

[ElansarGelmir]

ask yourself this, how does information helps?

Do you always have to be provocative?

The information helps, but categorizing them into races is totally redundant, and yeah, albeit it's the fault of the interpreter, it still leads to undesirable effects... Not everyone has the same open mindset as u guys have . . .

[el_empty]

mind if i butt in?

elansar, it's not that earth's being an ass. i am presuming that you're not an economist by training ( i have no idea) ? cos those of us who are just see the world in a different light. nobody's wrong here, it's true that classifying things according to races is provocative, but it's also true that statistics are important.

also, you can't just refrain from doing something just because you think that something *might* lead to undesirable effects, which in itself is such an ambiguous term. who decides what is undesirable and how? economists work with the data, and as long as it's there, it needs to be expounded upon.

finally, categorizing is never redundant when it comes to pooling data. if there is a data trend to be modelled then categorization becomes inevitable - and in this case, there is an observed trend that certain races dont' tend to do well - hence the need for classifying for the sake of academia.

cool?

[ElansarGelmir]

mind if i butt in?

elansar, it's not that earth's being an ass. i am presuming that you're not an economist by training ( i have no idea) ? cos those of us who are just see the world in a different light. nobody's wrong here, it's true that classifying things according to races is provocative, but it's also true that statistics are important.

also, you can't just refrain from doing something just because you think that something *might* lead to undesirable effects, which in itself is such an ambiguous term. who decides what is undesirable and how? economists work with the data, and as long as it's there, it needs to be expounded upon.

finally, categorizing is never redundant when it comes to pooling data. if there is a data trend to be modelled then categorization becomes inevitable - and in this case, there is an observed trend that certain races dont' tend to do well - hence the need for classifying for the sake of academia.

cool?

No, i'm no economist, and no, I still don't see why races should be involved in that pool of data (unless what you say is true, that the BTN peeps are trying to stereotype). Now, would that be effective as well?

[topdog]

No, i'm no economist, and no, I still don't see why races should be involved in that pool of data (unless what you say is true, that the BTN peeps are trying to stereotype).

are you objecting to the use of the data by the BTN people, or are you against the collection of the data altogether?

if it's the former, then i think you have made your point clear and we can all move on.

if it's the latter, i suggest you take a deep breath and look around you. EVERYBODY collects racial statistics. check any u.s. university website and you will find student profiles broken down by race.

[el_empty]

which pool of data? data of people who take the exams? dude fact is people can be categorized into long hair, brown eyes, religion, race, etc.

do you see a trend if people with long hair do better or worse?

do you see a trend if people with brown eyes do better or worse?

do you see a trend if people of certain religions do better or worse?

do you see a trend if people of certain races do better or worse?

if you spot a trend, that means there's a way to model it. there are numbers, there are equations. there are variables. there's a regression analysis.

what people do with the data should not be a hindrance to the collection of the data itself. so the people you want to hantam now, are the ones who abuse the data for political gains. not the economists who collect them.

finally, statistics is statistics. it's like 1+1=2. you can't say that it's wrong or right. it's just pooling data. what's debatable is only the methods in statistics, like how to average, how to measure GDP, etc *and* how you present the data.

[misled_youth]

well, in btn, they do have lecture/talk to motivate us.
when the speaker talked bout chinese being superior n smart n malays shd learn from them, the hall is dead silence. i mean like......... dead silence. u can sense smthg is wrong (though i am have asleep).

This is exactly the kind of dribble that I'm talking about. Is BTN trying to tell the Malays that they are lesser humans compared to Chinese?

That is BULLCRAP.

Our Malay friends are just as smart, if not smarter than we are.

If I was a Malay, I'd be offended by this rediculous statement. Look at Dr M, Pak Lah, Najib - are they who they are because they know something that the ordinary Malay doesn't know? Did they did extensive research on Chinese "success"?

If there is a wealth disparity between races, it not because of the races themselves, but the policy in which they live with. If the Malays are getting a "raw deal" in life, it's not their fault.

But if the Malays blame the Chinese and not the ROOT CAUSE of their problems, then the government has succeeded.

My Malay friends, we are not your enemies, nor your competition, but look carefully and identify who is REALLY holding you back. NEP is a boon to the minority races, not the other way around (well, in my opinion anyway).

The Malays are bombarded with put downs not by anyone else but their political masters. They tell their subjects that they form the "Master Race" and that the way forward, is backwards.

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
(what's the last one?)

Doesn't Orwell's writing sounds familiar?

We don't really have this problem in ReCom. Most of us are more interested in our commonalities than our differences.

Take me for example, while I trade huge amounts of banter with phantom, shifty (3rdshifter), chenchow and others, we get along just fine. I even talk colloquial Malay with them via IM. We share and exchange ideas. Outside the intellectual realm, we are friends - EQUALS.

I would love to have them over during Chinese New Year (I'll have to hide my air haram first :evil: ), and love to visit them during their festive seasons (you better hide your pretty sisters first :evil: ).

Members of ReCom, I love you (except a handful of BTN brainwashee's who stubbornly refuse to accept the facts).

ps. Hint - DAP/PAS also conducts brainwashing camps. Less known secret, but I'm REVEALING IT. Hahahahah... watch out you hypocrites... watch what you say to misled_youth!!!!!!
________
COLORADO MEDICAL MARIJUANA DISPENSARIES (http://colorado.dispensaries.org/)

[chenchow]

I would agree with misled_youth to say that race is not a reason whether someone succeeds or not. It is through motivation, initiative, support from others, and many other factors.

I agree with misled_youth that while some of us may not agree with each other, we are all friends. To those who are not used to discussing or even debating ideas here in ReCom, I would say that what matters most is the idea and not who says it. Look at the issues, and not look at who raises it. Often, the person who brings up the idea, does not mean that he/she is the only one subscribes to the idea. With huge possibility, there may be many others who may be fanatical supporters of an idea, but never dare to show his/her faces.

I am happy to see the gradual improvement in the local front. I am not sure how much the Racial Unity Debates is improving the racial relationships, but it is very nice to see political leaders from BN, oppositions, as well as NGOs appear on the same platform every Sunday for an hour of discussion. There have been debates with many different combinations Umno, DAP, MIC, and a NGO; MCA, PAS, Keadilan and NGO; Umno, PAS, DAP and an academician etc.

While it may be small aspects, it is a good start and hopefully Datuk Ongkili who is the de-facto racial harmony minister, could initiate more ideas to bring the races together.

[el_empty]

the dudes up there don't get it

as long as you have racial quotas, there will be racial segregation. BTN and sekolah wawasan and all the other ramshackle initiatives are stupid and redundant. full stop. what's the point of addressing the symptoms when the cause is right there in the face?

[misled_youth]

Guys... check this out:

PM: Compete with the world?s best

KUALA LUMPUR: The public and private sectors should always benchmark themselves against international standards in their pursuit of quality, said Prime Minister Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi.

He said it was no longer acceptable to compete among themselves or with developing countries.

?We must always compete against the best. To be acknowledged and recognised (among developed countries) makes our achievements more meaningful,? he said at the Prime Minister's Quality Award and Information Technology Prime Award presentation night at the Hilton here yesterday.
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2004/12/11/nation/9638439&sec=nation

I think charity starts at home. We're so busy fighting ourselves with no winner in sight and Pak Lah wants us to turn our attention overseas.

How about we tell our "leaders" to emulate governments overseas in terms of TRANSPARENCY, Accountability and Responsibility.

Pak Lah made so many promises but has not lived up to them.

Back to the subject of BTN, I think we need to prove those BTN buggers wrong. ReCom is PROOF that BTN is wrong.

We need to prove that even thouse ReCom members are from both sides (or more) of the political, racial and religious divide, we can live without the BTN bullcrap.

It would be cool if we can organise a forum/debate of some sorts and we'll put these leaders ON THE SPOT, and make them answer the many tough questions we pose on ReCom.
________
THYME VAPORIZER (http://www.vaporizers.net/)

[phantom]

as much as i found it freakin annoying to spend half a billion ringgit just for BTN, i still think what Pak Lah said has its context.

sure,charity should start at home but as i perused the cut off article,.I realized that what pak lah meants,or at least meant to me were:

a) stop being jaguh kampung. just becoz u can be the biggest company in m'sia doesnt mean it's the pinnacle of all.

b) there's few ways to promote our countries. promote NOT SWAGGER..one of them is to do well in many pursuits internationally.

c) so far pak lah is doing fine.sure he's not Dr. M,but he's doing fine.many changes do take place including on that sept 2nd rite.though that i agree many changes are needed from him too.





It would be cool if we can organise a forum/debate of some sorts and we'll put these leaders ON THE SPOT, and make them answer the many tough questions we pose on ReCom.

sure,that sounds fine. but we can also write letters to the newpaper which of coz it's hard becoz we take sides.i believe if the gov doesnt want to throw away BTN,we must suggest other alternatives than can somehow reduced the amount of money put into it or try hard to make it as an option rather than an obligation.

i really will like to know how well proven is BTN in perhaps turning brats into lads.again, brats and lads are open to ur own definations. i just wanna know the stats about BTN,how well it works or doesnt work.

[el_empty]

i still think what Pak Lah said has its context.

i think pak lah should just stop talking and start doing something.

[SpRInG]

BTN is the source where some people earn money... imagine where that money goes...

so how willing are they to cancel BTN? no way... big money..

[budakkerek]

during my BTN camp, there were some probs pertaining to food. Apparently, there were some Hindu participants among us. And they dont take beef. So, the camp had some sort of arrangements bout it. the food, was real bland n not nice at all. I was eating w a gusto, but my poor Hindu friend just sat beside me staring at her food. It did NOT look tasty at all.

And, some of the things that happened during the camp was kinda stupid. The ppl at the camp were rather insensitive, they made fun of the fact that these students dont eat beef, and even asked the Christians whether they want to go to church on Sunday. When they say they do, they were told that "no one is allowed to leave camp until it ends, not even to church."

my question was, what's the point of asking? it's like asking a rhetorical question, sthing you already know the answer.

I am enraged at what happened during the camp. It was fun, but the fact that the facis made fun of other ppl's religion n races, made everything bout BTN seem so shallow. These adults, who are supposed to be our guide, our contoh teladan, are not being who they are supposed to be.

When i think back about BTN, i remembered it was fun, and that was no thanks to the ppl there. I had my friends, and we made it through together. Thank God for that.

I had to be careful of what i said, coz someone reminded me that i should, since they could 'fail' me on purpose and i cant continue my studies to Aussie coz what i said might be found as 'not suitabe' for a Govment scholar. Which is kinda stupid, coz i thought why they are sponsoring us is to make us gain knowledge and bringing it all back to msia so we can spread it all around. But what they are doing is trying to curb us fr having brains of our own, sthing that CANT happen esp to ppl who are supposed to be studying for thei degrees or phDs or whatever..

As for what i wrote, i think i did say sthing bout me being grateful etc., misled, but dont get me wrong. I am only grateful for what i hv today, it's becoz of what the ppl before us hv done that enable us to hv what we hv now. Not to some particular parties that claim it is bcoz of them, we Msians are living in a blissful heaven.

well, it's been a long while since i said shting this long..hope it makes sense..just dont want to be one of them ppl,

[misled_youth]

i really will like to know how well proven is BTN in perhaps turning brats into lads.again, brats and lads are open to ur own definations. i just wanna know the stats about BTN,how well it works or doesnt work.

Very valid point. I mean, are all non-BTN trainees like misled_youth? LMAO

w00t?

I had to be careful of what i said, coz someone reminded me that i should, since they could 'fail' me on purpose and i cant continue my studies to Aussie coz what i said might be found as 'not suitabe' for a Govment scholar. Which is kinda stupid, coz i thought why they are sponsoring us is to make us gain knowledge and bringing it all back to msia so we can spread it all around. But what they are doing is trying to curb us fr having brains of our own, sthing that CANT happen esp to ppl who are supposed to be studying for thei degrees or phDs or whatever.

Knowledge is a double edged sword. From your little anecdote, I would say that the government only wants us to have knowledge that would serve their agenda, not hinder it.

Papa knows best - that's their mentality.

Remember the Madonna song that was bastardised by a certain Osborne? "Papa Don't Preach" (me think Kelly O is hot!!! :twisted: )

As for what i wrote, i think i did say sthing bout me being grateful etc., misled, but dont get me wrong. I am only grateful for what i hv today, it's becoz of what the ppl before us hv done that enable us to hv what we hv now. Not to some particular parties that claim it is bcoz of them, we Msians are living in a blissful heaven.

I stand corrected. It's very dangerous to paraphrase people as one might get qouted out of context. I just remember a post you made saying how you felt grateful after talking to some Pak Cik about WWII as part of BTN.

Anyhoo, I'm not sure of the word for this, but I'm one of em' who don't believe in patriotism. I believe that loyalty to the state should be distinct from love of my fellow (wo)man. I believe that "patriotism" is meant to serve the agenda of the state, and maintain the status qou - They the powerful, we the sheep.

We, the sheep, will one day kick the sheppard where it hurts, and braise them and roast them. (it's dinner tmie, and I'm hungry LOL)

Jesus was probably the first anarchist. Off topic here.. damn... I'm such a scatter brain...
________
Herbal Aire Vaporizer Review (http://www.vaporizers.net/)

[chenchow]

budakkerek, I would say that the unbecoming action of a few black sheeps within BTN should be exposed. If there is proof that those trainers are discriminating, they should be exposed. I have only gone to two BTN and I would say that I haven't met any of such trainers.

I would say that it is not the policy that is at fault, but certain few people within it that are causing all these problems.

In fact, I hope that I could one day get to become NS trainer, BTN trainer, to help fellow Malaysians sharing my experience and help mould them with various skills. I would say that brainwash is not the purpose of BTN, and in fact, I would look at it as a place where people get to work together for a few days with others, get to learn from one another, build up various soft skills, teamwork, leadership, communication etc, and try to build up.

Of course, a few days of BTN won't do wonder. But any bit of improvement would be a good news.

[ElansarGelmir]

which pool of data? data of people who take the exams? dude fact is people can be categorized into long hair, brown eyes, religion, race, etc.

do you see a trend if people with long hair do better or worse?

do you see a trend if people with brown eyes do better or worse?

do you see a trend if people of certain religions do better or worse?

do you see a trend if people of certain races do better or worse?

if you spot a trend, that means there's a way to model it. there are numbers, there are equations. there are variables. there's a regression analysis.

what people do with the data should not be a hindrance to the collection of the data itself. so the people you want to hantam now, are the ones who abuse the data for political gains. not the economists who collect them.

finally, statistics is statistics. it's like 1+1=2. you can't say that it's wrong or right. it's just pooling data. what's debatable is only the methods in statistics, like how to average, how to measure GDP, etc *and* how you present the data.

I get ur point. But I wonder why would the folks in BTN want to stereotype intelligence according to race then? Unless they prove that it would motivate the students to do better, i dun mind. but would it help at all?

Anyway, I would not want this trifling issue to prolong. So I rest my case here. You guys may be right, but to me, that was still unnecessary. You keep ur opinion, i keep mine.

[ElansarGelmir]

In fact, I hope that I could one day get to become NS trainer, BTN trainer, to help fellow Malaysians sharing my experience and help mould them with various skills. I would say that brainwash is not the purpose of BTN, and in fact, I would look at it as a place where people get to work together for a few days with others, get to learn from one another, build up various soft skills, teamwork, leadership, communication etc, and try to build up.

Good! Then you can tell us what the facees need to preach at BTN. That would clear all doubts and misconceptions about BTN (i'm not saying from which side, just standing on the pagar)...

[misled_youth]

In fact, I hope that I could one day get to become NS trainer, BTN trainer, to help fellow Malaysians sharing my experience and help mould them with various skills. I would say that brainwash is not the purpose of BTN, and in fact, I would look at it as a place where people get to work together for a few days with others, get to learn from one another, build up various soft skills, teamwork, leadership, communication etc, and try to build up.


misled_youth terpengsan... *gasp

If anyone reads in the newspaper "BTN Trainer Absconds" or "Jurulatih PLKN Hilang Dihutang" and that it's related to chenchow, it means misled_youth have kidnaped him and brough him over to southern thailand for brainwashing camp (again? :twisted: )

w00t?

Haha
________
black Webcams (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/webcam/ebony-girls/)

[budakkerek]

LOL
okay
perhaps what i wrote was kinda emotional, but hey, i dont like being quoted out of context.

anyway, i stand by what i said, that such camps, if handled wrongly, can backfire. I mean, ppl who are pro-gov might be otherwise or vice versa. depends on how they see it.

Me?
When i was there, all i thought was, damn..i gotta watch my mouth coz stimes i tend to say things as it is. i dont believe it putting sugar on top of what i wanna say just so some ppl will feel more secure, happy etc.

Well, BTN is here to stay. so i guess we should just keep our eyes on it. And yeah, the second NS is about to get started..so..i guess we hv another issue to talk bout.

[ElansarGelmir]

LOL
okay
perhaps what i wrote was kinda emotional, but hey, i dont like being quoted out of context.

anyway, i stand by what i said, that such camps, if handled wrongly, can backfire. I mean, ppl who are pro-gov might be otherwise or vice versa. depends on how they see it.

Me?
When i was there, all i thought was, damn..i gotta watch my mouth coz stimes i tend to say things as it is. i dont believe it putting sugar on top of what i wanna say just so some ppl will feel more secure, happy etc.

Well, BTN is here to stay. so i guess we should just keep our eyes on it. And yeah, the second NS is about to get started..so..i guess we hv another issue to talk bout.

National Service= 12 X BTN

OMG!

[el_empty]

I get ur point. But I wonder why would the folks in BTN want to stereotype intelligence according to race then? Unless they prove that it would motivate the students to do better, i dun mind. but would it help at all?

Anyway, I would not want this trifling issue to prolong. So I rest my case here. You guys may be right, but to me, that was still unnecessary. You keep ur opinion, i keep mine.

okay. just didn't want economists (and other data collectors) to be blamed for what other people use the data for.

[ElansarGelmir]

I get ur point. But I wonder why would the folks in BTN want to stereotype intelligence according to race then? Unless they prove that it would motivate the students to do better, i dun mind. but would it help at all?

Anyway, I would not want this trifling issue to prolong. So I rest my case here. You guys may be right, but to me, that was still unnecessary. You keep ur opinion, i keep mine.

okay. just didn't want economists (and other data collectors) to be blamed for what other people use the data for.

I was not directing the blames on the economists... I was angry at the guys who present the data... or what the data is used for...

Peace :wink:

[budakkerek]

ahhh..
you mean those ppl who kept droning when others were already sleeping?
hehe..

one of them told us that "i'm so sorry, i know these are very dry stuff but we are instructed to read everything exactly how it is in the module."

go figure, they even tell the penyampai how to deliver their stuff haha

[ElansarGelmir]

that's obvious... hehe... do you think they would let any Tom and Harry to just present whatever they want? They have to make sure that their points get to the callow students, and obviously those facees are paid to do that. I bet that those people even have to undergo trainings on what to tell those fellows (or given a list of things about what to tell)...

Wait, the students under JPA scholarship should not be involved in any political parties, including the ones in Malaysia, rite?

[chenchow]

I guess that's the same way done by any other organizations.

I have been to tons of those Lockheed Martin training session and the facilitators always refer to their notes to ensure that what they say are synchronized with their company's principles.

Yeah, as a student, we shouldn't be active in any political party.

[ElansarGelmir]

I guess that's the same way done by any other organizations.

I have been to tons of those Lockheed Martin training session and the facilitators always refer to their notes to ensure that what they say are synchronized with their company's principles.

Yeah, as a student, we shouldn't be active in any political party.

So, that means that we should not campaign for any parties nor can we influence others to vote for a party either, rite?

[chenchow]

Yes, I believe so, at least until we finish our studies, although that does not mean that we should not be aware of the political situation in Malaysia or the world.

I remember Dr. Mahathir was saying that " Pelajar2 sepatutnya tidak terlibat dalam aktiviti politik dalam mana-mana parti politik, tetapi pelajar-pelajar perlu ada kesedaran politik"

[SpRInG]

Actually he is just afraid. As students, we can think in a lot of aspects. He's just afraid that when we find out too much of the dirty things that he's doing, we'll go against him. That's why he keeps students out.

[ElansarGelmir]

but one thing good about that is to keep students from getting involved with middle east political ideals...

[chenchow]

I would say that based on Dr. Mahathir's statement, as a student, we need to know about the domestic and international politics, but what the government hopes is that we should concentrate on our studies and other involvements and not spending time campaigning for political parties. But that does not mean that we should don't care and don't know anything about it.

[SpRInG]

There is a difference of being merely exposed, knowing, and experiencing the real thing

[Thirdshifter]

But if the Malays blame the Chinese and not the ROOT CAUSE of their problems, then the government has succeeded.

My Malay friends, we are not your enemies, nor your competition, but look carefully and identify who is REALLY holding you back. NEP is a boon to the minority races, not the other way around (well, in my opinion anyway).

The Malays are bombarded with put downs not by anyone else but their political masters. They tell their subjects that they form the "Master Race" and that the way forward, is backwards.

I wish it was that simple and say yeah, you're right.
Anyway, Here's my take on NEP and why i think it is not the root cause of the Malays problems ( i would like to know what problems that I have since i'm a Malay too, it would be very interesting to know the "Malay problems".. make sure you tell me what my problem is.. because i'm just to dumb to figure it out myself, so please my Chinese Friend (not enemies right?) tell me!! ).

Back to topic:

NEP was created to force the pre-dominantly Kampung, Katak di bawah tempurung , Petani, and Nelayan Malays to join the Business force which was dominated by Chinese for a long time. Ever wonder why many of the buildings in KL has a Chinese Name?

The NEP was created to help balance the disturbution of wealth and especially to help the Malays whom are very inexperienced and without capital to join the business world. It worked and it worked wonderfully. So theortically, Malays and Chinese getting rich together equals to no problem.

The amount of Money made by Chinese businesses not only because they were just so good at it but because of the lack of competition was what? you can just put any word that would describe a lot of money and it would fit perfectly. I'm pretty darn sure in the 60s up to the early 70s there was probably not even one corporation or a Company that was owned by any other race then Chinese that was operating in Malayas/Malaysias 3 major cities. Why did this happen? Was it because Malays just didn't want to participate was it because Malays were basically Kampung people?

While Chinese Immigrants were becoming more and more richer and the cities are becoming more developed and it's population are more educated the Malays at that point was left so far behind that KL and Hulu Langat seems to be 2 different countries.

The riot in 1969 was a clear indication that Malays were frustrated. Many Malays had felt that they had been robbed in their own home. Was the riot of 69 purely the fault of one race? I think not!

Some one had to say it, well i will... Chinese simply do not like doing business with Malays (at that time anyway). Simple as that. Takkan tak tahu.. melayu kan pemalas.. well that was the mentality. I could put some of the blame on British as well but thats a whole different topic.

So in my humble opinion, Without the establishment of many discriminatory policies under NEP, the Malays who are so willingly and readily to let go of these rights and privelleges and strongly believes that NEP is unfair itself is a by-product of NEP.

Unfortunatly, Without NEP it is most likely that you and your parents might already be dead. I'm not threatening but just assuming that the 2,000 people who died on May 13th was just the beginning of a long civil war in Malaysia.

[ElansarGelmir]

Third, welcome back!

My two cents: NEP was successful in helping the malays in the kampungs to be more competitive and capable in the business world. But don't you think that NEP has done more than enough in that matter? Although many politicians still argue that there are many kampung malays who are still poor and in need of help, shouldn't the ones benefit from the NEP and other 'more advantaged' Malaysians help those people in need instead of still implementing NEP which favors only a certain race? It is time to amend NEP to be more fair and equal in its policies.

[el_empty]

what the government hopes is that we should concentrate on our studies
so they tell us that by threatening to expel students who campaign for opposition parties? at the same time, umno establishes student clubs ALL over the world? so that's ok?

[topdog]

*props up chair, takes seat and awaits carnage*:D

[ElansarGelmir]

what the government hopes is that we should concentrate on our studies
so they tell us that by threatening to expel students who campaign for opposition parties? at the same time, umno establishes student clubs ALL over the world? so that's ok?

I want to quote on that, but I can't find enough published evidence to say that.

[budakkerek]

and dont forget, the recruiting of PUTERI UMNO. I mean, what's dat all bout, they say no recruiting students to the oppositions but then, when they do that same particular thing, it's okay? NOT a good thing to me. Kinda like going against what you say, make ppl question your credibility aint it?

[kennytang]

well, imho, a large gap does exist between diff races. thats undeniable. but from what i know, there r some of my malay frens in high skol who depend solely on quota system. i mean SOME. not all. i am not making a sweeping statement here. take my frens as example, they dont study. i mean DONT. not seldom. when i asked them the reason, they tell me that they r most likely to get the uni or college they want. or if they r lucky enuf, overseas.
well, my point here is that: yeah, quota n NEP can help the malays to get back what they want. but how long shd this last? forever???? this is a chain cause-and-effect. if SOME of them who depend heavily on quota system n not making any effort to get the luxuries they want, whats the main point? it makes no sense at all. if this prob continues to plague msia, can someone tell me how we gonna be a developed country by the year 2020?

[SpRInG]

exactly. the system, instead of instilling competitiveness, has caused more incompetence and complacency to the privileged ones

[digimushu]

i think we should move that discussion here:

http://www.recom.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=33459#33459

...and let this talk be about BTN

[el_empty]

eh why move it away? doesn't BTN do the same thing - ask us to be grateful and not support the opposition?

[digimushu]

nope i'm suggesting the NEP talk to be moved there. the politics and brainwashing talk can continue here.

just so that we do not deviate too much...

[el_empty]

nope i'm suggesting the NEP talk to be moved there. the politics and brainwashing talk can continue here.

that sounds soooo sad...

"NEP talk can go there, brainwashing and politics can talk here..."

[digimushu]

:)

I'm merely suggesting. You can choose not to listen. Similarly, the BTN trainers can say all they want, the attendees can always choose not to listen. its a *free* world, right? ;)

[topdog]

yeah aren't they mutually IN-exclusive? :D

[ElansarGelmir]

:)

I'm merely suggesting. You can choose not to listen. Similarly, the BTN trainers can say all they want, the attendees can always choose not to listen. its a *free* world, right? ;)

Sigh... Why can't we *choose* not to go?

[el_empty]

BTN says to choose their way so you have to do it. if not it's one way ticket to the latest attractions in kamunting

[budakkerek]

if you dont wanna go, they say fine. But they'll take back your scholarship, blacklist you etc., Kinda stupid huh.

and all these while i thought we live in a democratic country
*sigh*

ps: that's what they said when we said, can we not go? they told us scary stories like phd ppl cant go overseas to continue their studies coz they failed their btn test, stuff like dat.. :roll:

[misled_youth]

BTN says to choose their way so you have to do it. if not it's one way ticket to the latest attractions in kamunting

Latest attraction in Kamunting is Fajar Supermarket, where the goods are cheap, parking plenty, and sales girls pretty :D
________
Prilosec settlement (http://www.classactionsettlements.org/lawsuit/prilosec/)

[USSDefiantNX74205]

Latest attraction in Kamunting is Fajar Supermarket, where the goods are cheap, parking plenty, and sales girls pretty

At risk of digressing: how did you know about it, misled? :D

[el_empty]

misled is actually the director at kamunting, here on an undercover snoop. they call him.......... doktor kamunting

[pandaboy]

Latest attraction in Kamunting is Fajar Supermarket, where the goods are cheap, parking plenty, and sales girls pretty

At risk of digressing: how did you know about it, misled? :D

misled is always up to date... lol :wink:
Anything special in Klang lately? lol...
sorry for digressing~

[budakkerek]

heh, ada new fajar ke? what happened to the on in Taiping? depan the store tu heheh..

kinda surprising huh, that misled knows what goes on in his hometown, since he's in Perth now.

and, how did you know that the sales gurls are pretty? ehem...udah dilihat ya? :lol:

[kennytang]

mmmmm...... my dad used to teach in kamunting too. hehe

[__earth]

from BTN to NEP then to stats then to Kamunting?

Cmon, the future must be brighter for us than just Kamunting right?

[budakkerek]

maybe coz that's where most ppl who tried to hv their say heard out loud end up. sad n miserable in kamunting

[el_empty]

yeah the only entertainment they have is fajar supermarket

( i realized this thread is under the "senseless debates" index

[budakkerek]

so it's senseless indeed
*how come fr talking bout BTn we got to talking bout Fajar* LOL

hmm..
but i doubt they let the inmates/tahanan/whatever they call it, go shopping at fajar for the weekends
LOL

[kennytang]

i wonder y no one talks bout 'kem bina insan'? oh ya, fyi, i refer that as 'kem bina binatang' or 'kem binasa insan'. it works either way
it is much worse than btn

[budakkerek]

we call it Kem Bina Diri. coz we ate like 6 times a day during the course

it was SO boring
my specs patah during the camp
so sedih

had to tape it using selotap n plaster n whatnot
LOL

i went to this kem bina insan at Jln Kebun
the facis were like crap
they werent helpful and were mainly just lounging around
we didnt like em much
and the ustaz was creepy
he has this weird way of squinting his eyes while looking at us, talking in this mysterious kinda way of speaking
got blacklisted in our books, he did
LOL

[el_empty]

apa ini kem bina kilang?

[kennytang]

haha... seems like the party in charge didnt make an effort to elect qualifie facis, not to mention nice facis.
the activities r crap........ totally crap...... i wonder y they held such camps? for more job opportunities eh???
i know that this sentence will appear again: "a few bad facis tarnish the image of the camp"......
but i wonder y the probability of us encountering those 'few' bad facis r ever so high
sigh......

[misled_youth]

Kamunting is one of my fav hangout's lah.

1. My parents don't go there
2. I like the burger stalls and Kon Low mee stall near Pei Chai primary.
3. I go jamming at the studio at the busstation lah...
4. I know a couple of hot babes that (used) to stay there :twisted:
________
dirtyGina (http://camslivesexy.com/cam/dirtyGina)

[kennytang]

Kamunting is one of my fav hangout's lah.

1. My parents don't go there
2. I like the burger stalls and Kon Low mee stall near Pei Chai primary.
3. I go jamming at the studio at the busstation lah...
4. I know a couple of hot babes that (used) to stay there :twisted:

guess ur main motive is also #4
jk. jk

[ElansarGelmir]

Kamunting is one of my fav hangout's lah.

1. My parents don't go there
2. I like the burger stalls and Kon Low mee stall near Pei Chai primary.
3. I go jamming at the studio at the busstation lah...
4. I know a couple of hot babes that (used) to stay there :twisted:

Uhmm... Where's Kamunting?

[kennytang]

Kamunting is one of my fav hangout's lah.

1. My parents don't go there
2. I like the burger stalls and Kon Low mee stall near Pei Chai primary.
3. I go jamming at the studio at the busstation lah...
4. I know a couple of hot babes that (used) to stay there :twisted:

Uhmm... Where's Kamunting?

r u serious?
its in taiping..... somewhere near there
famous of those industrial thg. i mean used to be famous. its in our geogaphy syllabus i guess

[zAiTsEv]

Kamunting is one of my fav hangout's lah.

1. My parents don't go there
2. I like the burger stalls and Kon Low mee stall near Pei Chai primary.
3. I go jamming at the studio at the busstation lah...
4. I know a couple of hot babes that (used) to stay there :twisted:

Uhmm... Where's Kamunting?

in the outskirts of taiping. the notorious detention camp is there.

[ElansarGelmir]

Kamunting is one of my fav hangout's lah.

1. My parents don't go there
2. I like the burger stalls and Kon Low mee stall near Pei Chai primary.
3. I go jamming at the studio at the busstation lah...
4. I know a couple of hot babes that (used) to stay there :twisted:

Uhmm... Where's Kamunting?

r u serious?
its in taiping..... somewhere near there
famous of those industrial thg. i mean used to be famous. its in our geogaphy syllabus i guess

Did we take the same Geog?

[zAiTsEv]

Kamunting is one of my fav hangout's lah.

1. My parents don't go there
2. I like the burger stalls and Kon Low mee stall near Pei Chai primary.
3. I go jamming at the studio at the busstation lah...
4. I know a couple of hot babes that (used) to stay there :twisted:

Uhmm... Where's Kamunting?

r u serious?
its in taiping..... somewhere near there
famous of those industrial thg. i mean used to be famous. its in our geogaphy syllabus i guess

Did we take the same Geog?

form 1, 2, or 3 geog

[ElansarGelmir]

Didn't we just digressed to many topics?

[zAiTsEv]

what to do? this forum is under senseless debate ma.

[el_empty]

can we blame this senselessness on BTN?

[gal_flower]

Ok. There's just too many posts, so I didn't read all of them before writing. So forgive me.

BTN. 'Fond' memories. Before I went, there was this notion that BTN's goals were to weaken us from bad food, bad sleep, exercise etc and then brainwash us while we are still weak. In retrospect, that notion is so so funny. Ok, I admit I didn't enjoy myself there. But everyone in ATU10 have to agree we had a wonderful BBQ (don think of the food that is) and karaoke.

I don't recall being brainwashed to 'support BN, and down with opposition' or anything political like that. The most political statement that they made which coincidentally is the statement I hated the most is the one made abt Jews. I don't remember what they said. But I know they said what they said. Nvm. Of course, it is boring for us to be listening to this ppl talk abt why we have to be loyal to the country, bring no shame to the country but instead make the country proud of us yada yada...and how we must come back to serve the country yada yada...It's typical and normal..smtg we all had expected from a government scholarship. We all knew this was coming. I guess we just love complaining abt it. I don't deny that myself. But we have so many camps! Maybe it is a little unnecessary to spend the tax payers' money on this kind of camps. Not that it'll cost a lot for putting us up with bad food and accommodations. But I'm sure the money could have gone to better use. Just my two cents.

[sanghanuman]

I agree. I mean, they pay for our education right. It's freaking hundreds of thousands of dollars. Why can't we endure BTN for 2-3 days? If preaching about how students should be loyal to the country is a part of the deal, and what we get is education/worthy experience.. Come on..

The government don't pay for nothing. The reason for sponsoring students to study (local and abroad), most of us already know, is to ensure that the state be in educated citizens' hands in future.

Stop being such whiners, can we?

[__earth]

why should anybody stop complaining?

let them or anybody for that matter complains, or whines if you wish. The govt scholars might be bounded with the govt through contract but that doesn't mean they sold their souls.

If there is no complaint, there will almost be no improvement.

[sanghanuman]

If we want to complain, let us choose a more significant issue than some camps that we don't really take seriously in the first place.

For example, over the issue of letting us gain real life, working experience abroad for 2-3 years before coming back, or the fact that JPA do not really care to set up offices abroad to help us with our concerns (esp in the US)..

Maybe I did not experience what some of you guys had experienced in BTN (Undilah BN preachers/ We are doomed because we are genetically lazy statistics etc), that is why i see this debate as futile. But if you think that you have strong reasons to say what you want to say, sure. Enlighten me.

If it is true that we are talking about improvements, what kind of improvements do we expect from the govt/BTN ppl/us regarding this BTN matter? What do you want to see changed about BTN? Or maybe you don't want it at all. But you gotta convince our fellow Recomers the reason you think it should be like that.

cool?

[__earth]

not that we are talking about improvement. It's simply that BTN comes below expectation. A lot of things are not right in BTN. For instance, for the vegetarians, did the BTN organizers give a thought about that? Not of the slightest hint as far as I remember.

And more significant issues? like what? most of the event conductors took a condescending attitude? or the food? or the content of the speech? or the accomodation? or event itself?

Sure some of the stuff that most ppl are unsatisfied with are small issues but when you pile em up, its one giant hair ball.

edited for grammEr

[sanghanuman]

That is true. BTN is infamous for its organization. They should really be more sensitive about that, and some other things like the unnecessary, supposed-to-be-funny comments about religion.

Gosh.. Chen Chow, please take over BTN now. I sincerely have faith in you.

[ElansarGelmir]

in the beginning,

stop being such whiners, can we?

and a few posts later...

That is true. BTN is infamous for its organization. They should really be more sensitive about that, and some other things like the unnecessary, supposed-to-be-funny comments about religion. Gosh.. Chen Chow, please take over BTN now. I sincerely have faith in you


that is a quick change of attitude. _Earth, you surely have good persuasive skills.

[sanghanuman]

Me against the generalization about BTN and rumors saying that BTN preaches Barisan Nasional and feed racists statistics does not mean that I should neglect the fact that things do happen in BTN, like them being insensitive to the needs of participants, or should I?

Hmm..

[ElansarGelmir]

Stop being such whiners, can we?

Me against the generalization about BTN and rumors saying that BTN preaches Barisan Nasional and feed racists statistics does not mean that I should neglect the fact that things do happen in BTN, like them being insensitive to the needs of participants, or should I?


not quite parallel leh...
First, you say we should endure BTN and that it's a worthy experience )that i may agree)
Then you ask us to stop being a whiner...
And now u are whining about BTN as well...

And dude, those are not mere generalizations and rumors. The fact that some of us experience it shows that it is happenning and will still be if we are against any changes about it.

[sanghanuman]

Say that what some of us claimed about BN propaganda in BTN is true.
And you say that BN should not do that.
Why again?

It is quite na?ve to expect a fair game from politics. They have the power, they have the means, and we are indebted to their education policies that enable us to further our study without having to pay for it. What can we do? Well, if we don't like it (the propaganda), just ignore it. Simple isn't it?

Say that I am a storeowner. I own the store, and I pay somebody to work for me. Is it wrong for me to remind this person about his responsibilities towards me, and towards the store? If one day, after I pay his wage of four years of working in advance, he run away to work with another store, what do you think I should do the next time I hire another person?
BTN.

I think that having BTN is fair.
I think that BTN can be improved.
I think that I should go study.

[ElansarGelmir]

Say that I am a storeowner. I own the store, and I pay somebody to work for me. Is it wrong for me to remind this person about his responsibilities towards me, and towards the store? If one day, after I pay his wage of four years of working in advance, he run away to work with another store, what do you think I should do the next time I hire another person?
BTN.

I think that having BTN is fair.
I think that BTN can be improved.
I think that I should go study.

FYI, I believe we are talking about tax payers' money, not BN's.

[el_empty]

speaking of bn's money and taxpayers', who pays for the MCA building, the UMNO buildings (all over) etc. ?

[USSDefiantNX74205]

And don't forget about hospitals, clinics, etc. which proudly bear the sign 'Satu Lagi Projek Barisan Nasional'

Makes me wonder: does that mean opposition supporters do not pay taxes?

[budakkerek]

i guess, they say when we're in charge, we do what we want w everyone's money. After all, they ARE the Government. Which means, they hv the right to do what they want, coz no matter what, they hv the power?
*sigh*

politics is SO simple

LOL

[qedx]

Are there really any difference between BN money and government money anymore? Were there any difference to begin with? Keep in mind that we as a nation have never experienced any other government except BN nor do I think we will experience such a change at the federal level at any time in the foreseeable future.

I mean, look at the way we think: the political parties in Malaysia are BN and the Opposition. The Opposition. A weird rojak of parties with different ideologies, any one of them without a chance in hell of ever gaining the Parliament. The same can be said of BN component parties, but since they operate under the BN umbrella, they work, or at least seem to.

Another reason why I think we will never change governments is the ever present threat of "instability". "Don't rock the boat else we all should sink" - that sort of mentality. And since the current system seems to be working, why change? Sure, a new government might be better, but what if it is worse? But seriously, nothing in the world is ever really "stable". At best, it is controlled chaos.

And what am I supposed to be talking about again? :p My personal experience with BTN was kind of fun, especially when they left us in the dark in the middle of the night in a hutan belukar. I had a good sleep then :p. Food was edible. Accomodations for the guys consisted of 15 or so bunk beds with about 10 inches of space between them in a room that just fits those 15 beds with no ventilation to speak of. That time in the hutan was the best sleep I had that weekend.

[misled_youth]

10 pages? Where have I been?

The Opposition. A weird rojak of parties with different ideologies, any one of them without a chance in hell of ever gaining the Parliament.

I disagree. You might live to eat your words one day :P

But seriously, nothing in the world is ever really "stable". At best, it is controlled chaos.

Mou chor (memang betul)! Therefore, in reference to the earlier quote, you have made a contridictory statement.

I warned you guys... DON'T SMOKE WEED. It kills your braincells.

And what am I supposed to be talking about again? :p My personal experience with BTN was kind of fun, especially when they left us in the dark in the middle of the night in a hutan belukar. I had a good sleep then :p. Food was edible. Accomodations for the guys consisted of 15 or so bunk beds with about 10 inches of space between them in a room that just fits those 15 beds with no ventilation to speak of. That time in the hutan was the best sleep I had that weekend.

If that's your idea of fun, join the Ranger Regiment. I'll see ya there!

I don't recall being brainwashed to 'support BN, and down with opposition' or anything political like that.

If you could, it wouldn't have been called brainwashing. Right?
________
The Vision Condo (http://pattayaluxurycondos.com)

[phantom]

i guess, they say when we're in charge, we do what we want w everyone's money. After all, they ARE the Government. Which means, they hv the right to do what they want, coz no matter what, they hv the power?
*sigh*

politics is SO simple

LOL

u make it sound like a stupid thing. everyone's money is what 40 billion ringgit? even that most ppl dont give a shit of paying taxes,and still used the facilities provided. at least the gov is not a bunch of heaven-goers preaching how bad BN is at some stupid stadium and constantly wished they'll be the next PM. at least there's "satu lagi projek BN".they didn't use the money to shop at Paris instead rite? spending it on building hospitals,or roads for u and me to use.for our future generations to use. it's BN project.yeas.if u think collecting taxes,( or RAKYAT'S MONEY), coming out with a robust belanjawan,plan e'thing in detail,keep the nation intact,make sure e'body is paid his/her salary,keep the economy in the right track,make sure the racial tension at the min level as an easy job,go ahead say politic is easy.

the gov is not a bunch of loonies stealing ppl money to build UMno's building or MCA's building.can someone prove to me that,the tax money was used to build these buildings in the 1st place? i wonder how correct this matter is.becoz simply biaaatching without facts is like saying someone guilty without any base facts.if that's true,that's stupid of the gov.but if it's not?

sure,u can whine. becoz u say u deserve whining,allow others to biaaatch back.


go sang hanuman.

the gov,ok not the gov coz some ppl think the gov is idiot who steal their money to be in power,the malaysians who paid taxes,are spending half a million ringgit to send someone to study overseas. this is a huge sum of money. HUGE. so huge that the word huge is a too mediocre.

what the gov is telling u is: COME BACK HOME AND SERVE UR NATION and not COME BACK HOME AND KISS THE GOV'S ASS. even if that's what they said,think: while u open ur brain to the opposition parties to preach how bad BN is,why dont listen to how good BN is. u decide later.hearing one sided argument from the opposition parties or from the gov will always make u think there's devils and angels. where are the human then?

why on earth u bother applying JPA if u know the contract? imagine so many doctors breaking away from the contracts? we are losing doctors.the reason: urgh,gaji doktor kat malaysia is too cheap. knuckle head,if u know that,why bother applying JPA? 2,3 days of BTN is fun.only sissies complain about how they broke their heels.

[USSDefiantNX74205]

the malaysians who paid taxes,are spending half a million ringgit to send someone to study overseas. this is a huge sum of money. HUGE. so huge that the word huge is a too mediocre.

Right! So remember, my JPA or other sponsored friends, you are being paid to go overseas with OUR money to serve OUR nation and not the Barisan Nasional! So feel free to support any party you want!

while u open ur brain to the opposition parties to preach how bad BN is,why dont listen to how good BN is.

Anyway phantom, I'm sure most people here have heard from both sides of the fence before deciding who to support. I know I have.

[budakkerek]

hmm
know what?
i think name calling is SO yesterday.
plus calling ppl dickhead doesnt show who we are supposed to be, a learned person.

my btn was fun, nvr said it wasnt. :)

[el_empty]

stealing ppl money to build UMno's building or MCA's building

[still interested] so where does the money come from? [/still interested]

[Thirdshifter]

u make it sound like a stupid thing. everyone's money is what 40 billion ringgit? even that most ppl dont give a shit of paying taxes,and still used the facilities provided.

First he accuses people not paying taxes with no proof or base. Then..



at least the gov is not a bunch of heaven-goers preaching how bad BN is at some stupid stadium and constantly wished they'll be the next PM.

Are you sure about this? I mean if you look at how many stadiums were rented during the lection period, I think 3/4 of them were made by BN. Yeah your right they don't wish because they already are the goverment.

But.. Here's my favourite part of the whole post..


simply biaaatching without facts is like saying someone guilty without any base facts

Everyone else is wrong except you because he has alot of proof. BIG words and many ( ! ) marks make it even more convincing..

On the tax part, Did you know tat every good purchased in Malaysia is taxed? So basically if you had purchased anything in Malaysia you are a tax payer.

[phantom]

see,i didn't say i am wrong or correct.if u jump to that kind of conclusion,it's ur brain.


First he accuses people not paying taxes with no proof or base

read here:
http://www.utusan.com.my/utusan/archive.asp?y=2004&dt=1211&pub=utusan_malaysia&sec=muka%5Fhadapan&pg=mh_05.htm&arc=hive

and here:

http://www.utusan.com.my/utusan/archive.asp?y=2004&dt=1216&pub=utusan_malaysia&sec=muka%5Fhadapan&pg=mh_09.htm&arc=hive

[digimushu]

Whether BN is guzzling our moo-lah or not, i'd rather let everyone decide on their own. However, i agree with phantom that Gov sponsored students have the responsibility to go back and serve the people as they have been sent overseas by the government, especially doctors. However, there has to be away of making them go back without causing any deep-seated resentment.

I know I will get slammed for saying this, but i believe those whose education are paid for by the people should serve the people, no questions asked. If people who get the JPA scholarship just 'run-away' for their own selfish gains, that is just wrong. its like taking our tax money to start a business and then keeping all the profits for themselves without giving back even the capital...

We are talking bout the best scholars in the country, who are selected based on their results and excellent track record. If they dont fulfill their part of the contract, they are as unscrupulous as a bunch of conmen(and women).

[__earth]

misled_youth, I think you have a competitor. More interestingly, from the other side of the fence. :twisted:

at least there's "satu lagi projek BN".they didn't use the money to shop at Paris instead rite?

I wonder how the Americans will response if the Republicans hang "another GOP's project for America" while the project is being funded by Americans as a whole.

Maybe they will say, at least the GOP didn't use the taxpayers money to go to Paris. Wait, maybe not Paris. Maybe, hmm, Riga, Latvia since Latvia is one of the Coalition members. Then again, maybe an uproar. Then again, I donno.

[zAiTsEv]

Whether BN is guzzling our moo-lah or not, i'd rather let everyone decide on their own. However, i agree with phantom that Gov sponsored students have the responsibility to go back and serve the people as they have been sent overseas by the government, especially doctors. However, there has to be away of making them go back without causing any deep-seated resentment.

I know I will get slammed for saying this, but i believe those whose education are paid for by the people should serve the people, no questions asked. If people who get the JPA scholarship just 'run-away' for their own selfish gains, that is just wrong. its like taking our tax money to start a business and then keeping all the profits for themselves without giving back even the capital...

We are talking bout the best scholars in the country, who are selected based on their results and excellent track record. If they dont fulfill their part of the contract, they are as unscrupulous as a bunch of conmen(and women).

at least come back and serve your bond. after that, you can do whatever you want. remember, serving the country doesn't mean that you have to serve the government. even when you're working overseas, you can make malaysia proud when you achieve success in your careers. people will know more about malaysia.

[__earth]

see,i didn't say i am wrong or correct.if u jump to that kind of conclusion,it's ur brain.

dude, you made a statement and a few posts later, you made the quoted statement above. Huh? :?

[topdog]

yeah don't you love people who do that? make bold statements then take the easy way out when they are questioned by saying "it's up to you to interpret what i said."

i fail to see how thirdshifter "jumped to conclusions" in his response to phantom's post.

[budakkerek]

if you can say this "it's up to you to interpret what i said", the you shouldnt be mad n calling ppl names when they seem to hv a diff opinion.

As for the JPA scholars n the others, yeah, i agree that they should serve the bond if they are supposed to. After al, the ppl are the ones who are paying for your education. So, you should be serving them, giving back to them, as w/out them, you wont be able to go overseas etc.

true, serving the gov is not really a fun thing to do. I hv to be a teacher n teach at a gov school for upt to 4 years upon graduating since i'm an MOE scholar. It's not fun, but it's a part of the contract. If you wanna breach it, fine, go on. I hv no prob w dat. But you'll be questioned later on. It's your call really.

Serve the bond, after it's over, you can go and do what you want. heck, i dont plan to stick to teaching in schools forever..You gotta advance yourself man.. :)

[digimushu]

I'm glad that many government scholars here feel obligated to serve the people that paid for their education. As long as you have served your bond, the rest of your life is up to you.

I have met JPA and MARA scholars from various universities that are 'escapees' of the JPA bond, most of them doing grad school and planning to 'run away'. It makes me feel disappointed that they are just taking advantage of the people that paid for their education.

I'n not supporting brainwashing for the sake of BN support, a single party state is never healthy...

[misled_youth]

misled_youth, I think you have a competitor. More interestingly, from the other side of the fence. :twisted:

NOw what the heck does that mean? phantom? He's not even in the same LEAGUE as misled_youth, let alone a competitor :roll:

j/k lah... :lol: :lol: :lol:


plus calling ppl dickhead doesnt show who we are supposed to be, a learned person.

Who call you dick head? I will round up my VCD seller friends and go beat the crap out of him! :x :x :x

I have met JPA and MARA scholars from various universities that are 'escapees' of the JPA bond, most of them doing grad school and planning to 'run away'. It makes me feel disappointed that they are just taking advantage of the people that paid for their education.

It just shows that loyalty can never be bought. Even if BTN shows the trainees how many rainbows BN can produce, and how many pot of gold awaits them, they cannot stop people from seeking greener pastures.

They cannot stop people from viewing them as corrupt and incompetent. How can the government expect people to be educated, and yet dumb enough to believe their lies?

NOTE - I started this thread, and I think I should sum it up soon, so instead of a meaningless thread, we'll have some concluding statements and compile it. COmments?
________
Zoe1 cam (http://camslivesexy.com/cam/Zoe1)

[budakkerek]

plus calling ppl dickhead doesnt show who we are supposed to be, a learned person.

Who call you dick head? I will round up my VCD seller friends and go beat the crap out of him! :x :x :x


misled dear,
thanks for the concern.
some guy, i think thinking to dethrone you hehe

But dont worry, if you wanna call up your VCD seller friends, then i guess i should call my Petaling St VCD seller "big brothers" hehe they'll come to my rescue, dont you worry bout that LOL

[misled_youth]

But dont worry, if you wanna call up your VCD seller friends, then i guess i should call my Petaling St VCD seller "big brothers" hehe they'll come to my rescue, dont you worry bout that LOL

Wah lau eh! My gang from Subang only... meaning yours more Tai Kor!

*misled youth shys away.... quietly*

Nothing to see here folks.

Hey hey! Concluding statements please...
________
Avandia Class Action Settlement (http://classactionsettlements.org/)

[phantom]

as much as others have the right to piss me off with their statements about the gov/BN,i find no harm of pissing them back with my " bold and choleric statements ". if u could drag me into my boiling points, heck,u deserve the same.

[el_empty]

But dont worry, if you wanna call up your VCD seller friends, then i guess i should call my Petaling St VCD seller "big brothers" hehe they'll come to my rescue, dont you worry bout that LOL

Wah lau eh! My gang from Subang only... meaning yours more Tai Kor!

*misled youth shys away.... quietly*

Nothing to see here folks.

Hey hey! Concluding statements please...

since they're your friends, eh got discount ah?

[el_empty]

as much as others have the right to piss me off with their statements about the gov/BN,i find no harm of pissing them back with my " bold and choleric statements ". if u could drag me into my boiling points, heck,u deserve the same.

they're not pissing you off. they just have a different opinion. if you disagree you tell them why they're wrong. if you just can't handle different opinions, then there's no point in you being here.

[el_empty]

They cannot stop people from viewing them as corrupt and incompetent. How can the government expect people to be educated, and yet dumb enough to believe their lies?

NOTE - I started this thread, and I think I should sum it up soon, so instead of a meaningless thread, we'll have some concluding statements and compile it. COmments?

maybe write a 'recommendation' letter to BTN?

[topdog]

as much as others have the right to piss me off with their statements about the gov/BN,i find no harm of pissing them back with my " bold and choleric statements ".
of course, fair enough! but don't say this:
see,i didn't say i am wrong or correct.if u jump to that kind of conclusion,it's ur brain.
if you wanna be provocative you'd better stick to your guns. don't cheat!

[phantom]

they're not pissing you off. they just have a different opinion. if you disagree you tell them why they're wrong. if you just can't handle different opinions, then there's no point in you being here.

yeas,i agree.but if some ppl just say this: kerajaan tu "baik"...kerajaan tu jahatlah..then laugh :hehehehe....how u gonna prove ur points to them?

i can handle different points,different ppl's opinions ( fine, not all the times). but there's time i cannot.sarcasm being one.u wanna say good points go ahead.u wanna discuss to improve BTN,fine. i'll speak my minds.and i listen to urs. sure,i can sound splenetic but that depends to the tone u r reading too. if u take time reading my points,rather than finding my mistakes alone,i'll discuss.

provocative?cheating?mad?correct?right? that's ur labeling theories. i wont wail for u to say that to me. trust me,i wont. u make ur own conclusion. if u think,i'm bad or provocative,fine. if u think i am an angle,fine.

enough of me being on the bad limelight.

back to BTN:

BTN has its own good points. it has its bad too. we have 10 pages of discussion on that. as much as i agree with BTN, i dont want it to be a BN embracing camp. i did learn something at recom didnt i? even if u support BN,u must try to be fair to others who dont by not making BTN a BN crux. did the same rules apply to u .

how u wanna see improvements made in BTN,if u just keep saying how bad the goverment is ? i understand how certain ppl hate the gov,but that doesnt mean,the gov is devil all the time.

k.enough.

[budakkerek]

But dont worry, if you wanna call up your VCD seller friends, then i guess i should call my Petaling St VCD seller "big brothers" hehe they'll come to my rescue, dont you worry bout that LOL

Wah lau eh! My gang from Subang only... meaning yours more Tai Kor!

*misled youth shys away.... quietly*

Nothing to see here folks.

Hey hey! Concluding statements please...

since they're your friends, eh got discount ah?

hehe, discounts? sure. Stimes, i even get free cds. the other day, i did some business la, sold cds to my friends. Cr duit sampingan. believe me, good business hehe..

plan to *kembangkan* the business to Brisbane heheh

Hmm..misled, what can i say, i always end up w the better deal LOL

The PS boys, they are not THAT scary. Quite nice guys if you know them. :D

[DecentMerson]

But dont worry, if you wanna call up your VCD seller friends, then i guess i should call my Petaling St VCD seller "big brothers" hehe they'll come to my rescue, dont you worry bout that LOL

Wah lau eh! My gang from Subang only... meaning yours more Tai Kor!

*misled youth shys away.... quietly*

Nothing to see here folks.

Hey hey! Concluding statements please...

hey... hmmm... i think some of us might have common friends... hahaha

anyway...
since they're your friends, eh got discount ah?

hehe, discounts? sure. Stimes, i even get free cds. the other day, i did some business la, sold cds to my friends. Cr duit sampingan. believe me, good business hehe..

plan to *kembangkan* the business to Brisbane heheh

Hmm..misled, what can i say, i always end up w the better deal LOL

The PS boys, they are not THAT scary. Quite nice guys if you know them. :D

hey... hmmm... i think some of us might have common friends... hahaha

anyway... if u wanna kembangkan ur business... better be careful... a fren of a fren of my was slapped with $100 penalty per disc...

and about writing letter and complaining... one of us did that... KENNY... where r u???

the director of the BTN program is suppose to come to UiTM to do explanations and stuff... but in the end... they didn't turn up...

dunno how it ended.... (as expected)

[budakkerek]

hey, juz kidding. Aussie is like super strict, am having problems applying for the visa. Sob sob, why la i hv to go to Aussie *sigh*

hmm, decentmerson, you got some freinds who sell vcds also aa?

anyway, digressing again. Sorry :p

Well what do you expect?
most of the time, they wont send the ONE in charge. usually they'll send the subordinates, like the secretary or sthing like dat.
that's what happen w my sponsors. Sucks. Coz the person they sent didnt seem to be able to help us as much. What my friends said, is that by sending the one not directly responsible they can elude the matter at hand. Kinda nak cover themselves ler
Not sure how much this is true.

i'll comment on BTN later, okay, misled dear?
It's 320am and the stupid dogs are barking at God knows what and i am still wide awake. :wink:
the only thing i can think of now is to strangle those dogs n feed them chocolax LOL

*chocolax - refer to dealing w diff ppl thread :lol:

[zAiTsEv]

hey... hmmm... i think some of us might have common friends... hahaha

anyway... if u wanna kembangkan ur business... better be careful... a fren of a fren of my was slapped with $100 penalty per disc...

and about writing letter and complaining... one of us did that... KENNY... where r u???

the director of the BTN program is suppose to come to UiTM to do explanations and stuff... but in the end... they didn't turn up...

dunno how it ended.... (as expected)

kenny complained about kem binasa insan lah. he did receive a reply from suhakam but i don't think any action was taken. what to do? human rights have no significant place in malaysia. sigh... so sad.

[ElansarGelmir]

maybe they pinned up kenny's letter on the "Joke of the year" notice board...

[misled_youth]

But dont worry, if you wanna call up your VCD seller friends, then i guess i should call my Petaling St VCD seller "big brothers" hehe they'll come to my rescue, dont you worry bout that LOL

Wah lau eh! My gang from Subang only... meaning yours more Tai Kor!

*misled youth shys away.... quietly*

Nothing to see here folks.

Hey hey! Concluding statements please...

hey... hmmm... i think some of us might have common friends... hahaha

anyway...
since they're your friends, eh got discount ah?

hehe, discounts? sure. Stimes, i even get free cds. the other day, i did some business la, sold cds to my friends. Cr duit sampingan. believe me, good business hehe..

plan to *kembangkan* the business to Brisbane heheh

Hmm..misled, what can i say, i always end up w the better deal LOL

The PS boys, they are not THAT scary. Quite nice guys if you know them. :D

hey... hmmm... i think some of us might have common friends... hahaha

Yeah... common friends that try to push RM20 "interactive" pr0n DVD's.

"eh... you can choose your angle and choose your characters and choose where you want to see it..."

*ahem.... 18SX lah bang...

Note: ReCom... the top digressers! LMAO!
________
apartments for sale Pattaya (http://pattayaluxurycondos.com)

[budakkerek]

fuiyoo, misled
so mahal aa?
i can get for less than $10
:lol:

ehem, dont get me wrong. That's like the only thing i dont sell *other coloured CDs* not good heheh
*though good business LOL

*check self, realized straying fr topic - kemabli ke jln yg benar* :lol:

Okey...BTN

okey, though i hate to admit it, BTN is a good way to build up the patriotism in the hearts of Msians. But they would hv to change the way they run the whole do, coz if they dont, they'll just end up being criticized and no one will ever take em seriously.

And they would hv to be mroe sensitive of the differences that exist in Msia, that all of us are diff, and we hv diff beliefs etc. having been in the business should hv made them more aware of this, but through the few camps that i went through, i didnt see much of this.

The facees were okay, mine was great. Though i REALLY had to watch what i said *the facee kept on stressing on the fact that he has the power to make us fail, so a bit of kissing up had to be done* LOL

Anyway, as a conclusion, i would say that the BTN:
-they would hv to be more well-organized
- be sensitive of the participants' diff needs
- change the way they deliver the modules *damn, they were so boring most of us end up sleeping*

hmm..
kinda out of idea now, will add up if i hv more ideas LOL

*Misled, i dont think we should ever close this thread. It's a good bitching platform LOL