Astrology... believe or not to believe??

[weiweiann]

good day everybody...

well, first of all let me introduce u guys the new topic... ASTROLOGY... It is my sincerest wish that you will find this new topic is what you have been seeking to make your life a little more fun to live. i bet a lot of ppl out there will think astrology is juz kinda pseudoscience (N.B. pseudo = fake) or commonly speaking is "bullshit". 8O Well, let?s dun be so negative towards this topic? In the first place, what did u know abt astrology? Did u juz simply think that it?s all about horoscope n daily predictions only?? :wink:

Alrite, astrology is a type of New Age therapy used for self-understanding and personality analysis known as ?astrotherapy?. Furthermore, astrology is believed by millions of people and it has survived for thousands of years. The most popular form of traditional Western astrology is sun sign astrology, the kind found in the horoscopes of many daily newspapers. A horoscope is an astrological forecast. The term is also used to describe a map of the zodiac at the time of one birth. The zodiac is divided into twelve zones of the sky, each named after the constellation that originally fell within its zone (Aquarius, Pisces etc.).

According to a Gallup poll I read from the website, belief in astrology has increased from 25% to 28% over the last decade of the 20th century. But still a lot of ppl prefer not to believe it? yeah? I wanna clarify first? i dun really encourage u guys to read abt the daily horoscope predictions n I think that?s bullshit as well?haha? but u may have a look at the character analysis? really quite accurate? mayb not 100% true but at least can give u a rough idea abt some kinda ppl? rite??

Anyway, I?m still learning.. n need to improve my own knowledge abt astrology as well? especially the birth chart.. really not easy to construct? gotta learn n hopefully I can meet some ppl who having the same interests with me as well.. 8)

Regards,
weiann

[silverblue]

To some degree, I do believe in Astrology (about how the movements of the planets and stars can partially influence our birth and lives) but I just think that in modern society, astrology especially in the form of horoscope predictions, etc have been distorted for commercial reasons and lost it's accuracy (simply because these horoscope authors know that readers like to read what they want to hear)...

I would dig into the amazingly interesting world of true astrology (eg. indian astrology seems sensibly accurate to me), but I guess it is important to differentiate which is the authentic form and which is merely the commercial form (horoscopes u read in magazines/newspapers)....

I would also like to share more of what I know about astrology, but I won't be able to present the facts until after my impending finals season!! 8O
In the meantime, hope to hear more from any astrology experts out there! :)

i dont about you, i dont believe in astrology controling our way of live and stuff. but i know that astrology helps people to understand more about the universe. it's very facinating figuring out how did the universe started, meteorrites and stuff...i enjoy learning about it

:) :) :) :)

[__earth]

I, being a skeptic, find it hard to believe in any kind of astrology. The only kind of prediction that I believe in the extrapolated one - meaning the ones back by science, like weather forecast and such.

The only reason why astrology seems to be true is that it's simply a probability problem - when you make a million predictions, one or two ought to be true. Plus, most of these astrologists make a very general prediction and general prediction is easy to make by even an average person.

of course, sometimes it just fun to read it.

[wwhong]

i think more or less everyone read a bit about astrology cos everyone wants to know about their future. whether u believe it or not is another thing. for me, i will believe the good stuff but not the bad one, ahha...

[chenchow]

Sometimes, while we may try to convince ourselves not to believe, but often when we read about the predictions, it rings a bell with us and we would think that, "Oh Yeah!, that seems quite true!" and you left yourself feeling amazed...

[silverblue]

I don't think astrology controls one's life or predict that something that's going to happen in the future...

I think it's more like something that influences our characteristics or something that...but then again, i may be wrong... 8O

but i know that astrology helps people to understand more about the universe. it's very facinating figuring out how did the universe started, meteorrites and stuff...i enjoy learning about it

I think you were refering to astronomy here rite? not astrology... I think alot of people are still kinda confused about the difference between the two... I know I was once upon a time... ;)

[silverblue]

Definition of Astrology: Astrology, in its traditional form, is a type of divination based on the theory that the positions and movements of celestial bodies (stars, planets, sun, and moon) at the time of birth profoundly influence a person's life. In its psychological form, astrology is a type of New Age therapy used for self-understanding and personality analysis (astrotherapy).

The only reason why astrology seems to be true is that it's simply a probability problem - when you make a million predictions, one or two ought to be true. Plus, most of these astrologists make a very general prediction and general prediction is easy to make by even an average person.

HHmm... I read this from this website, which is a skeptic of astrology.... it's really interesting so do read it if you have time!
http://skepdic.com/astrolgy.html

"According to some astrologers, the data support the hypothesis that there is a causal connection between heavenly bodies and human events. Appeals are made to significant correlations between astrological signs and such things as athleticism. However, even a statistically significant correlation between x and y is not a sufficient condition for reasonable belief in a causal connection, much less for the belief that x causes y. Correlation does not prove causality; nevertheless, it is extremely attractive to defenders of astrology. For example: ?Among 3,458 soldiers, Jupiter is to be found 703 times, either rising or culminating when they were born. Chance predicts this should be 572. The odds here: one million to one? (Gauquelin 1975). Let?s assume that the statistical data show significant correlations between various planets rising, falling, and culminating, and various character traits. It would be more surprising if of all the billions and billions of celestial motions conceivable, there weren?t a great many that could be significantly correlated with dozens of events or individual personality traits. "

"Defenders of astrology are fond of noting that ?the length of a woman?s menstrual cycle corresponds to the phases of the moon? and ?the gravitational fields of the sun and moon are strong enough to cause the rising and falling of tides on Earth.? If the moon can affect the tides, then surely the moon can affect a person. But what is the analog to the tides in a person? We are reminded that humans begin life in an amniotic sea and the human body is 70 percent water. If oysters open and close their shells in accordance with the tides, which flow in accordance with the electromagnetic and gravitational forces of the sun and moon, and humans are full of water, then isn?t it obvious that the moon must influence humans as well? It may be obvious to some, but the evidence for these lunar effects is lacking. "

"Why are the initial conditions more important than all subsequent conditions for one?s personality and traits? Why is the moment of birth chosen as the significant moment rather than the moment of conception? Why aren?t other initial conditions such as one?s mother?s health, the delivery place conditions, forceps, bright lights, dim room, back seat of a car, etc., more important than whether Mars is ascending, descending, culminating, or fulminating? Why isn?t the planet Earth?the closest large object to us in our solar system--considered a major influence on who we are and what we become? Other than the sun and the moon and an occasional passing comet or asteroid, most planetary objects are so distant from us that any influences they might have on anything on our planet are likely to be wiped out by the influences of other things here on earth."

[silverblue]

Finally, people who defend astrology usually point out how accurate professional horoscopes are. But basically, to say astrology works means that there are a lot of satisfied customers and one can shoehorn any event to fit a chart. It does not mean that astrology is accurate in predicting human behavior or events to a degree significantly greater than mere chance. There are many satisfied . Evidence of how the horoscopes accurately describes people and how their astrologer has given them good advice does not prove astrology so much as it demonstrates the Forer effect, and confirmation bias. Good astrologers give good advice, but that does not validate astrology. There have been several studies that have shown that people will use selective thinking to make any chart they are given fit their preconceived notions about themselves and their charts. Many of the claims made about signs and personalities are vague and would fit many people under many different signs. Even professional astrologers, most of whom have nothing but disdain for sun sign astrology, can?t pick out a correct horoscope reading at better than a chance rate. Yet, astrology continues to maintain its popularity, despite the fact that there is scarcely a shred of scientific evidence in its favor. Even the former First Lady of the United States, Nancy Reagan, and her husband, Ronald, consulted an astrologer while he was the leader of the free world, demonstrating once again that astrologers have more influence than the stars do.

[wwhong]

hmm...maybe the stars do have some influence on human behaviors which cause one to success and another to be evil, etc. that's what the eastern and western astrologer believe in. is it a coincidence? in ancient china, those fortune teller kinda relate the important person to the stars on the sky. like this star represent the emporer,etc. once the star drop, that means that person died. sounds more like a legend and myth since there's no scientific proof.

anyway, i think astrology is something like religion. if you believe in it, then you will follow it even though there's no any scientific rule to proof it just like no one ever proof the existence of god scientifically but people still pray to and believe in Him. basically human beings just have some kind of fear about the future and that's why they turn to astrology to find some comfort or answer i guess. praying to god is somehow getting a sense of security, that's why so many people pray to god when they have problem. it won't provide any material help but somehow makes one person feel more secure and confident psychologically. that's what i remember from one of the article i read before.
whether you wanna believe or not is really up to personal preferences.

sometime believe a bit in it won't cause any harm right? just like when it says something good will happen to u today, that at least makes u cheer up a bit and if a fortune teller told you that you gonna involve in accident on certain date, then u will be extra cautious which is good thing. of course i m not implying our life is somehow being modeled.

[Vigilante]

I'm too busy to write a proper response as I am terribly busy with my finals. However, after reading some responses, I can't resist the temptation to put my own comments on this.

Sorry to write this in point form, but I think this is the simplest yet most effective way to convey my points.

1. Astrology and astronomy are two different things. Astrology is the study of the positions of heavenly objects such as the sun, moon and planets and how these positions affect the lives of humans. Astronomy is the study of space, solar systems, cosmology and the origin of the universe.

2. I would dare to say all astronomy professors are against astrology because the foundations of astrology are baseless.

a) The astrology chart that most astrologers are using are still based on the ancient astrology which started thousands years ago. Most are not aware of that. They just know how to interpret the charts, but have no idea how the chart came about. That chart is still based on the idea that the Earth is the center of the universe and that planets and the Sun revolves around the Earth.

b) The speed of light is not infinite. The light from the Sun takes 8 minutes to reach our eyes on Earth. Light from Jupiter, at very rough estimation, takes 20 minutes to reach Earth. Astrology fail to take this into consideration and use the location of the planets based on eye-observations of the sky globe. Imagine playing Counter-strike with 2 seconds lag. You cannot shoot the enemy at your crosshair, because the enemy was there 2 seconds ago, not now. That is 2 seconds. Consider 10 minutes.

c) Some stars are several hundred light years away. Therefore we are looking at stars hundreds of years ago, and some probably have exploded into supernova. The constellation Leo might not look as what is. Some stars may have gone long time ago.

3) silverblue has quoted several stuff, which mostly are from skepdic.com. One of them, "If oysters open and close their shells in accordance with the tides, which flow in accordance with the electromagnetic and gravitational forces of the sun and moon, and humans are full of water, then isn?t it obvious that the moon must influence humans as well?"

I actually read this first-hand from a successful and popular horoscope book some time ago in MPH, Sunway Pyramid.

Anyway, the magnitude of the gravity from planets on objects on Earth are negligble. During childbirth, the pull from the doctors arms on the baby is definitely several times order of magnitude higher than the gravity from Mars. If gravity from Mars can affect the characteristics of a child, wouldn't then the strength of the doctor who pulls the baby out of the womb and lifts it up has much higher influence? If astrology is true, shouldn't we then all try to get doctors who is able to exert the exact force needed for the baby to become smart, intelligent and lucky everyday?

4) Assuming that gravity does affect us, how forces acting on our body can determine our luck and relationships of a certain day? If I put a weight on my head, does that affect whether I should put money on the stock market? Or that I should not ask the girl I have a crush on out to a date because the planet Jupiter is near Mars today? I don't see the connection, and the logic. Gravity pull may make more or less blood goes to my brain, but that can't change my luck.

5) weiweiann has the opinion that horoscopes can predict personality and characters relatively accurate. However, one must notice that the analysis describes almost everyone. Astrologers take general, but subtle and not usually realized characteristics of human beings. For example,

XXX are usually on the side of the underdog in society they will fight for any cause they believe to be just, and are prepared to be rebellious. They balance loyalty with independence. Even in company they are fiercely independent, refusing to follow the crowd. They dislike interference by others, however helpfully intended, and will accept it only on their own terms. They do, however, make excellent friends, provided that their companions do nothing to impugn the honor of which XXX are very jealous. Part of the negative side of the XXX nature is a tendency to discard friends once they cease to be useful, but the decent native is aware of, and fights this tendency. On the surface they are emotionally cold, and sometimes this goes deeper, for their habit of suppressing their natural kindness may in the end cause it to atrophy, with the result that they shrink from committing themselves to friendship, make few relationships, and those they do make they are careful to keep superficial.

6) Many experiments were done to see if horoscope personality prediction is accurate. One is to offer all 12 zodiac sign analysis to a person, and ask that person to select the analysis that best suits the person. If the analsyis is accurate and able to predict obvious traits, the person can easily match his sign with the analysis report. The results were not above chance, only 1/12 of the participants guessed their signs correctly.

7) General style of personality analysis is to make several general statements, and then once a while, make a very direct and narrow statement such as 'XXX usually have health problems, particularly at the chest area'. A lot of people have chest problems, mainly because are lungs are heart are located there. Therefore, anyone who suffers asthma or heart diseases would be astonished to see the 'accuracy' of such predictions. Remember, people tend to count the hits and disregard the misses. And also note that all astrologers need are a few happy customers out of many, going around telling everyone how accurate their predictions were. Astrology, like many other pseudoscience, sells on testimonials of their customers, not on evidence if it really works.

8) How astrologers make their predictions? Do they really know how to read the locations of planets? Try asking the astrologer to predict what time Jupiter will rise, or which the day the Moon will be full. Most can't. They have little knowledge of real astronomy. Astronomers can. They can tell you when the next eclipse is coming, with the exact date, time and location. They have sent and landed probes on Mars. These are solid evidence of their success. Astrologers say gravity and positions of planets affect us. Astronomers say the effect is negligible. I would listen to astronomers.

9) Astrologer makes inconsistent predictions. If their predictions are based on planets, shouldn't then all astrologers make the same predictions? How can one astrologer make different predictions than the other if their predictions are based on the same source, which are the locations of heavenly bodies in space?

10) Human testimonials on how accurate horoscopes are cannot be used as evidence. A similar test by James Randi to prove biorhythm charts doesn't work. He asked for biorhythm charts from an expert for him and several others based on their birthdates. He then gave a lady her chart for the week. A week later she came back and said the chart was accurate. Randi apologized because he mixed up her chart with his own and gave her her 'real' chart. She came back again, convinced that biorhythm works. The second chart was actually Randi's secretary's chart. By then the lady was pissed off and refused to continue the experiment.

(FYI, biorhythm is the belief that humans have more than just menstrual cycle. There are also physical, intellectual and emotional cycle. If all the cycles are at the lowest peak at the same time, it is believed that you might die at that time. This idea was bought by the public. Airline companies invested a substantial amount of money to pay biorhythm experts to create a chart for their employees so that no pilot or flight attendant will be aboard the plane during a triple biorhythm negative peak, fearing air disaster.)

11) James Randi is still offering his $1 million dollar challenge to anyone who can predict the future and make accurate personality reports based on astrology, under controlled experiments of course. An easy challenge. Make 12 personality reports of all 12 zodiac signs. If people can identify their signs based on the 12 personality reports above chance (1/12 percent), you get the money. Not many took up the challenge, those who did, did not score above chance.

12) What qualifications do you need to become an astrologer? How do you differentiate between a good astrologer from a bad? Do they need any certifications? If so, who gives them? Do astrologers need to pass a test before they can become professional? Or do they just claim to be one because they read enough books on astrology? Then does the author of astrology books have the right qualifications?

13) wwhong's "sometime believe a bit in it won't cause any harm right?"
There are harms. Many politicians consult astrology to make decisions. We need politicians who make decisions based on accurate information, not by fortune telling. If astrology can enter the Oval office of President Reagan as mentioned by silverblue, it will enter the courthouse. Astrologers may be called to give personality readings on the accused, whether the accused were likely to commit a crime. Think of the consequences.

I just found out that astrologers are charging an average of $40 for an online personal horoscope report. There are MANY of such businesses online. This is a huge industry. I am aware of the such poll when I saw CNN?s Anderson Cooper 360, after he interviewed John Edwards, who claimed to possess the ability to communicate with the dead.

"Well, want to put "Crossing Over" and how Americans feel about the supernatural in perspective. A recent Harris poll of more than 2,000 Americans found that 84 percent believe in miracles, 51 percent believe in ghosts, 31 percent believe in astrology, and 27 percent believe in reincarnation. A small sampling." http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0310/14/acd.00.html

[jiinjoo]

Now that's a great way to spend your terribly busy moments with finals! Thanks for your opinion Vigilante! Congratulations on your first post :o

Life's too short - believing in correlations is a way of life for some people. Let it be! :wink:

[qedx]

lol if this wasnt a "proper" response; i'm almost afraid to see what you'd write when you have time. heh.

[silverblue]

Hahaha...

well... firstly, a very warm welcome to Vigilante, which is also known as Arthur Lee, the pseudoscience debunker... ;)

it's good that he finally came out of his shell to post at Recom (after so much persuasion! phew!)! hahaha.. well, i guess it's because of his deep passion in educating people about pseudosciences ... he's extremely well read in this field and also has a vast interest in astronomy! so, hopefully we'll see more posts from him about these issues...

[huilinchin]

Welcome Vigilante!
Thanks a lot for your post...I learn lots of stuffs from your comments...
I am not crazy about horoscope, but it's nice to read them sometimes.

Good Luck in your finals and visit Recom often. Hope to read more post from you. It was good! :D

-Hui Lin ^_^

[weiweiann]

First of all, thx to everybody's enthusiasm on this topic...

yeap... astrology has been categorized as psedosciece... coz it's not falsifiable n not replicable.

(According to the rule of replicability, it requires independent observers to follow the same procedures n to achieve the same results. This provides a safegurad against the possibility of error, fraud or coincidence.)

HOWEVER, it's undeniable that science is partially came from pseudosciece. Without imagination of someone at the very first beginning... ppl's curiosity wont b aroused... n therefore no investigation n experiment... thus no new theory... furthermore, ppl always juz believe in "real" science.. thinking that science is superior knowledge... the knowledge other than sciece is inferior... this creating a barrier to further development... :evil: According to Francis Bacon, "Read not to contradict n confute, nor to believe or take for granted... but to weigh n consider."

By the way, can anyone please tell me... where the astrologers figure out the personality analysis?? juz simply create themselves...??? Moreover, ther is lot of supernatural stories out there which r belonging to pseudoscience... coz no one can explain it using our limited science knowledge. does it mean we shud abandon it?? :?:

Last but not least, astrology is not only referring to daily predictions... it has lot of things that we need to learn... dun juz simply look at one side n said astrology is crap... alrite, that's it n have fun.

cheers,
weiann :idea:

[royston]

By the way, can anyone please tell me... where the astrologers figure out the personality analysis?? juz simply create themselves...??? Moreover, ther is lot of supernatural stories out there which r belonging to pseudoscience... coz no one can explain it using our limited science knowledge. does it mean we shud abandon it??

I am not an astrologer... and I don't know anything about astrology but I have thought about this question before. Maybe they have studied something related to human behaviors, and of course, a certain survey has been done with a lot of people... But one thing for sure is, regadless of how many percentage of believers, it can be here for so many years... there must be something logical. No doubt, we can't find out base on what logic those astrologers make such declaration/affirmation about human behaviors and so on, but we can't simply ignore them.

I believe... as long as someone who can find out from where they make their conclusion, we will know how true is their statement.

~ roy ~

[silverblue]

By the way, can anyone please tell me... where the astrologers figure out the personality analysis?? juz simply create themselves...??? Moreover, ther is lot of supernatural stories out there which r belonging to pseudoscience... coz no one can explain it using our limited science knowledge. does it mean we shud abandon it??

Dear weiweiann,

HHmm.. I am a little confused about why you were still asking this question.....because if you read carefully, this question has already been answered in most of the previous posts. :) I thought it was clear that astrologers make personality analyses, horoscope predictions, etc based on the movements of the planets, stars, moon, sun, etc and with the help of the astrology chart? However, as supported by Vigilante's post, there is still no evidence that these analyses or predictions have any proven validity or reliable accuracy in them.

[littlebigone]

i think that maybe astrologers are well versed in psychology. THis way they can make predictions that seem specific about a person but actually is general analysis.

I personally don't believe in astrology. My religion tells me not to. But my disbelieve goes beyond just my religion. I can't believe that things have been fated for me or I see no reason to do anything. I mean, if I believe that "this day will bring good returns", What am I supposed to do? Does it help that I "know" this day will bring good returns?

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't want to give up my will to control my life. Though some say that we don't have that control anyway. (=

[__earth]

HOWEVER, it's undeniable that science is partially came from pseudosciece.
For a start, that point is wrong. Science is not pseudoscience.
Science is derived from observation. Astrology is also derived from observation but both of the depart when astrology relates those observation to absurd explanation.

Science does not relate any observation to any explanation until there's a proved relationship between the observation and the explanation. This is the fundamental of logic.

Science asserts if A is B and B is C, then A is C. Astrology meanwhile says A is Z without knowing or investigating is A is B, B is C, C is D, D is... etc. If you apply astrology to logic circuit, your computer won't work. :D

So, I guess what you meant to say was, both science and pseudoscience are subset of knowledge.

And also, curiousity does not nescessarily originate from imagination. Curiousity could come when you see something you have never seen before.

By the way, can anyone please tell me... where the astrologers figure out the personality analysis?? juz simply create themselves...??? Moreover, ther is lot of supernatural stories out there which r belonging to pseudoscience... coz no one can explain it using our limited science knowledge. does it mean we shud abandon it??
you are right there. We should not abandon it but rather, investigate it. Unfortunately, so far, all investigations bring on more skeptics rather than believers.

[Thirdshifter]

Let me make it real simple.

Even a dead clock is right twice a day :)

[Vigilante]

I believe that the main reason why astrology still has the appeal today it's because of its 'accurate' personality analysis. I have to admit, I read several of mine (Aquarius btw) and I can't deny that they describe who I am. But before I make any conclusions, I read other signs like Gemini. "Hey, that fits me too!"

I realized my example before is too complicated. Here is another example taken from the book "Demon-Haunted World' by the late Carl Sagan. Read this and see if it fits your character.

At times you are extroverted, affable, sociable, while at other times you are introverted, wary, and reserved. You found it unwise to be too frank in revealing yourself to others. You prefer at a certain amount of change and variety, and become dissatisfied when hemmed in by restrictions and limitations. Disciplined and controlled on the outside, you tend to be worrisome and insecure on the inside. While you have some personality weaknesses, you are generally able to compensate for them. You have a great deal of unused capacity, which you have not turned to your advantage. You have a tendency to be critical of yourself. You have a strong need for other people to like you and for them to admire you."

Commenting on the example, Sagan said
"Almost everyone finds this characterization recognizable, and many feel that it describes them perfectly. Small wonder: We are all human."

[Vigilante]

HOWEVER, it's undeniable that science is partially came from pseudosciece. Without imagination of someone at the very first beginning... ppl's curiosity wont b aroused... n therefore no investigation n experiment... thus no new theory...

Science is not pseudoscientific. However, I understand what you were trying to say. If you are too skeptical, you would never accept new ideas. On the other hand, if you are too open-minded, you would then fail to distinguish real from illusions. Scientists believe in the balance of skepticism and wonder. You need wonder or imagination to make hypothesis. Without hypothesis, new ideas would not be formed. But you need skepticism too so that only the reliable knowledge survive scrutiny.

coz no one can explain it using our limited science knowledge. does it mean we shud abandon it??

First of all, if our current knowledge fail to explain something, that doesn't mean the other explanation is true. A common fallacy of argument. There are 2 explanations, A and B. If A is not true, that doesn't mean B is true. Both could be wrong. Ancient civilizations cannot explain lunar eclipse logically. Does that mean a heavenly dog ate up the moon and spit it out hours later?

Second, a common rule when a new idea arises. The burden of proof is on the hands of the supporters, not the skeptics. We need scientists who spend their time doing real research, not disproving baseless ideas each time they come out in World Weekly News tabloid. If you want someone to believe something, you prove it. You provide the evidence and reason to support it. You can't say something like, "Prove that unicorns do not exist. If you cannot show that unicorns do not exist, then unicorns must exist!" You can't prove something that does not exist. And remember, "Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence".

For the case of astrology, not only it failed to explain how it works, but also failed to show that it works, based on controlled experiments of statistics. Besides not being able to offer evidence, scientists have shown the errors in astrology. In other words, not only astrology fail to come up with evidence, but their claims contradict today's well established scientific knowledge. Therefore there is no reason why any of us should take it seriously. Astrologers need to come up with something better. As for now, I believe it has no place in our lives and especially not in politics. It does not deserve the privilege of having a small section in almost half of all printed media in the world. No, we should not abandon it, because we should not take it seriously in the first place.

The only thing we must not do is to turn deaf ears to astrologers. If they are able to come up with better explanations, we should listen, no matter how ridiculous it is. Just a century ago Alfred Wegener suggested that South America might be connected to Africa millions of years ago. Sounds ridiculous right? How can two continents move apart? Geophysics dismissed the idea. You can't blame them. There wasn't any strong evidence. Today we know about plate tectonics. They move. Pseudoscience can become real science, provided there are valid evidence.

Last but not least, any ideas that is believed by a big portion of people, and survived for many years, do not make it a valid idea. A thousand years ago, everyone thought the world was flat. That idea began since the beginning of human civilization. It survived more than a millenia. Now we know the Earth is round (although some might still object to that, true skeptics they are). Therefore we cannot conclude that there must be some hint of truth in astrology just because of its popularity and that it lasted for a long time..

[silverblue]

"Be Skeptical but Not Cynical
Be Humbly Open but Not Gullible"

I truly believe in the old Polish proverb that teaches us that if we were to believe in something with certainly, we must begin by doubting. :)

[bryon]

sidedish

http://horoscope.myrice.com/download/chart.swf

check location http://www.astro.com/atlas

[Schye]

I can?t say that I am 100% not believe in astrology but I never take it serious. I still think that

Life is 30% what happen to me,
and 70% how I react to them.

I believe it?s like a religion. (Although both has a lot of differences, but I cant think of a better example)
There are a lot of cases which match the prediction but most of it can?t be proved by scientific explanation.
There maybe possibility that the subconscious of the believers will impose what is predicted to themselves and hence make the prediction true.
To those who believe in it, it is true. To those who don?t, then they can find thousands of reason why it is not true.

[weiweiann]

hi...

i need to clarify first, i didnt mean that Science is pseudoscience. i was trying to say that there is possibility for pseudoscience to become science. furthermore, i never said that we shud believe astrology 100%... juz that sometimes we could use it as a guidance when someone is too hard to understand...

I have to admit, I read several of mine (Aquarius btw) and I can't deny that they describe who I am. But before I make any conclusions, I read other signs like Gemini. "Hey, that fits me too!"

Vigilante, u know y?? according to those astrologers, Aquarius n Gemini r under the same category known as "wind sign". so they share a lot of similarities...

anyway, thx for u guys n gals' opinions.. i really appreciate it.

cheers,
weiann 8)

[soul_out]

I personally think that Astrology, no matter Chinese or Western, is true to certain extent. We can't deny them since they were existed thousand years ago.

Sometime we might wonder how did our ancestor know all these cool stuff? I bet more than 90% of Recom members are science students. As a science students, we always think in a logical way. We always deny the truth of something which can't be proved by scientific way. For instance, bomoh, spell, draculla, exorcist, spirit & ghost. Well, you might heard this statement b4, but i would like to remind you guys again. THE HISTORY OF ASTROLOGY IS FAR MORE LONGER THAN THE HISTORY OF MODERN SCIENCE. Modern Science is not everything. If you believe in religion, why not astrology? Astrology seems far more simple than religion right? Hope i don't offend any1.

I believe in both Chinese n Western Astrology. It fits perfectly to my own characteristics n my life up to this moment. You will know your own nature via Astrology. Own nature means your "original" characteristic which was determined by Astrology based on your DOB, time and location of birth. As a result, you will understand what you are good at and what you are weak at via astrology.

If you know you're good at something, why don't you give a try on it?

If you know you're weak at something, why don't you work harder so that you will be able to improve?

Astrology "planned" the path for your life, as you understand yourself better, you may concentrate on those thingy which you're good at, and put more effort on those which you're weak at. Therefore although your path of life is planned, you are still the one who determine your own life.

If you still doubt, why don't you think that ASTROLOGY is actually is a
"HIGH INTELLIGENT MATHEMATICS/TECHNIQUES based on calculation the sun/moon" that was taught by some highly intelligent and civillised "creature" from other planets to our ancestors thousand years ago? Sounds more convincing. No?

P/S: I don't believe in those horoscope column which we can find in newspaper everyday. A good prediction of Astrology need at least your DOB, time and location of birth. Location means the latitude and longitude.

[littlebigone]

Sounds more convincing. No?

No :P

[__earth]

I have to admit, I read several of mine (Aquarius btw) and I can't deny that they describe who I am. But before I make any conclusions, I read other signs like Gemini. "Hey, that fits me too!"

Vigilante, u know y?? according to those astrologers, Aquarius n Gemini r under the same category known as "wind sign". so they share a lot of similarities... i'm sure he meant if he read all the twelve signs, he will still say, "Hey, that fits me too!"

We always deny the truth of something which can't be proved by scientific way.I think this is your assumption, not the general public. How do you know it's the truth when it's not proven? In science, it is not denied until it is proven true or otherwise.

THE HISTORY OF ASTROLOGY IS FAR MORE LONGER THAN THE HISTORY OF MODERN SCIENCEit's true. but that does not mean it's right. The Church in Rome was established far earlier than the the notion the Earth is round. Would you say Galileo is wrong because the Church was born first before Galileo?

A good prediction of Astrology need at least your DOB, time and location of birth. Location means the latitude and longitude.this is an example how pseudoscience works. It uses science to make some theorem without even proving how it gets to the theorem.

Sounds more convincing. No?

No :PNo. :)

[littlebigone]

hey...we've been hearing a lot of astrology bashing. I would like to hear some support for astrology.

Although I personally don't believe for astrology, I am really interested to hear some of the things about astrology. So come on out and post your comments.

[Vigilante]

I'm really glad to hear something from the proponents of astrologers. Although soul_out's ideas may not be the most popular idea in ReCom, I really do welcome any criticisms and ideas. No personal offence, soul_out, but I would like to refute some of your points.

1) As mentioned by __earth, any ideas that began a long time ago and has survived for that long do not make it valid. I have made this point in my previous post.

2) Modern Science is not everything True. It is not everything, but it is the most reliable thing we ever have now. If you want to protect yourself from flu, you can get a flu shot, or you can buy healing crystal necklaces. If you want to know what the interior of Jupiter looks like, you can ask astronomers, or ask remote-viewing psychics/astral travellers. Science can both show that it works, and how it works. Pseudoscience's effectiveness is questionable and it usually fail to explain how it works.

3) I personally think that Astrology, no matter Chinese or Western, is true to certain extent. Why? Because astrology helps you understand your own character? I have offered my explanation how those 'accurate' character analaysis may not be true.

4) Own nature means your "original" characteristic which was determined by Astrology based on your DOB, time and location of birth. Why is the date of birth, time and location is so important in astrology? Experiments to check the personality of twins fail to show any similarities. Maybe it's because twins are born several minutes apart. Assuming that is true, you still need to provide evidence and reason how time and location of birth can affect personalities. Show two person who is born at the same time have the same personality. Then show how that relates to birth conditions. Remember, the burden of proof lies on the hands of the proponents.

5) Sounds more convincing. No? Wow! You guessed me correctly. My answer is indeed no. Hhmm, maybe astrology does work.

[wwhong]

astrology still exists today in this high tech world mainly because of human's mentality (not sure if this is the right word to use) ie fear of future. i m sure everyone had thought about your own future and deep inside your heart, did u fear that somehow u won't be able to achieve what you want? did u fear that u might lose everything u own now? i won't say this is true for everyone but at least majority. therefore, humans are constantly trying to find the answer to their inner question. science can't do this. we don't have a law that will predict if we fulfill all the requirement, we will get particular stuff. in science, if u know the mass and acceleration u can find the force (even though this might not be absolutely true as well, just the most plausible and acceptable one so far)

for me, astrology is really like a religion (of course not at the equal weight as religion) if u choose to believe in it, u will follow or else u won't. how many people had actually see, touch, or communicate with god before? is there any scientific proof that god exists? but still, if u r christian u pray to jesus, if u r muslim u pray to allah. have you ever question the existence of god while you pray? well, i would guess no. instead u chose to believe. for those who don't believe in god because there's no solid proof that god exists just simply chose not to follow any religion. same concept applies to astrology.

most of the people will say "i control my own destination and i dun believe in fate" but if given a chance to see your future, will u look at it? i was once asked about this question and my first answer was no as well. but after that, i started to think "why not?" it's the human nature to seek comfort and confidence. astrology serves as the tool most of the time. however, most people will choose to believe the good things predicted but not the bad one. there's this dialogue that i got from watching "storm rider",maybe can deliver my message more clearly. the fortune teller predicted that one of the characters, A (name is not important here) will be able to stay in great power but 10 years later he will be overthrown.

A: No, you are lying! I don't believe this. I control my own fate and I will change my own fate

Fortune teller: You had believe in fortune telling for your whole life and then now u said u dun believe in it anymore?

many of you guys said that astrology is just about probability,etc. i m not saying that astrology is true or what but just want to point out that even though with our current scientific knowledge, there's no proof for the validity of astrology but who knows there might be answer to this in the future? just like the people few hundred years ago won't be able to imagine people around the world can communicate so easily through the internet but we are using it now.

[littlebigone]

more more...I would like to hear how astrology can help you.

Coz rite now, I don't see a point to astrology. So u can "see" your future. But what does that do to help you?

[wwhong]

i would say "seeing" the future provide kinda mental or moral support for someone. u see, the future is an unknown. u dunno what will happen to you tomorrow or even next minute. u might meet your dream girl or u might be a piece of dead meat. (the tragic death of 2 m'sian girls here really led me to think about this) no one knows, and no one can tell you. so astrology serves as some kind of "advice", providing "answers" to those who really curious about their future, giving them confidences and hope and some kind of "destination" to be looking forward to. just like those atheletics would constantly said to themselves before the match that they will win the game and that keeps them running and fighting. if it is predicted that you will have a nice day, then somehow you will feel better (provided that you believe, but no harm to believe in this, isn't it?) don't you? that's why as I said, so many people just believe in the good things but not the bad one. all they want is just some sort of "comfort" or "confidence" (not sure if this is the right word, pardon me with my limited vocab) science can't do this, so they turn to astrology.

i was trying to talk about the reasons why astrology exists not why we should believe in it or how it will help us. maybe this scientific research will help deliver my idea. according to a psychology research, the newly borned monkey will thought that a model which will be able to provide milk and warm as their mother. (although i forgot who did this but this is a famous psychology research, should be able to find it online)analogically, those who believe in astrology is the newly borned monkey and astrology serves as the milk and warm. because the fake model can satisfy its need the monkey thought the fake model is its mother which is not in reality. just like those who somehow got some "enlighten" from astrology thought that is the "solution" which maybe or maybe not. the key point here is uncertainty. u can run a simulation on how a production line works or how electron will behave but u can't do the same thing on human.

[soul_out]

Hey guys, thanks for the comments.

_earth: This is not my assumption. That's how the majority think. Are you one of them?

"How do you know it's the truth when it's not proven? In science, it is not denied until it is proven true or otherwise." The 2 statements sounds a bit contradictory. Tell me if i got you wrong. Many things in the world is not proven(by modern science), but yet we can't deny their existence. For instance, how do we prove that the Pyramid is able to build by ancient
Egyptian? And how do we prove that the Stonehenge(England) was build with the knowledge at around 1900 B.C. Do we ever question Pyramid and Stonehenge? No, because we can see it and touch it. But yet it's not proven by modern science right? Ain't this are the assumptions of
most of us? Think about it when we're questioning the truth of Astrology.

"THE HISTORY OF ASTROLOGY IS FAR MORE LONGER THAN THE HISTORY OF MODERN SCIENCE". Sorry for not making this statement clear. Obviously, the older doesn't mean the truth. What i'm emphasize
is we can't simply deny it's truth, as it existed few thousand years ago, and it's still working up to this moment. It's one of the knowledge that is worth to put effort in it. We don't know how our ancestor learn/acquire this knowledge from, just like we don't know either egg or chicken
came first. Do you still eat chicken and egg as it can't be proved by modern science that egg or chicken exist in the world first? Hope you understand my broken english...:O)

soul_out wrote:
A good prediction of Astrology need at least your DOB, time and location of birth. Location means the latitude and longitude.
"this is an example how pseudoscience works. It uses science to make some theorem without even proving how it gets to the theorem."
Dude, we can't prove by modern science doen't mean it is not working right? By the way, it's we human who categorised Astrology into Psedoscience, it will be recategorise one day when we
found out more about it right?

Vigilante:

So you agree MODERN SCIENCE ISN'T EVERYTHING right?

"Pseudoscience's effectiveness is questionable and it usually fail to explain how it works."
As a reminder, it is categorised as PSEUDOSCIENCE because we modern human fail to explain how it works. Astrology is questionable. Many theory is questionable. Yesterday's theory might not work today.
Today's theory might be challanged by tomorrow's one. Darwin theory of evolution has been proven wrong right? As for today, to believe or not in astrology is a personal point of view.

Regarding the twins example, the twins are different in personality MIGHT because of the time different of birth. As i told you that astrology use DOB,location and time of birth right? Chinese n Western Astrology both
catogerised the time into 12 hours interval in a day, simply means the 2 person who were born on the same day,hour and location will have the same characteristics according to astrology. But actually the time interval might be subdiveded into minutes, seconds or even milliseconds. Sounds ridiculous to you right? Well, there's just my point of view. I personally think that there are ways to develope the theorem, as our understanding to Sun and Moon are still far too shallow.

I would like to share my personal point of view to those who deny in Astrology or even Pseudoscience. The reason you don't
believe in it because it can't be proved by modern science. There are many things out there which can't be proved by modern science, but yet i'm sure that you believe in at least one or two of them right?
Why not we try to look at everything in a more "open-minded" way? Thanks for you attention.

[__earth]

"How do you know it's the truth when it's not proven? In science, it is not denied until it is proven true or otherwise." The 2 statements sounds a bit contradictory. Tell me if i got you wrong. Many things in the world is not proven(by modern science), but yet we can't deny their existence. For instance, how do we prove that the Pyramid is able to build by ancient
Egyptian? And how do we prove that the Stonehenge(England) was build with the knowledge at around 1900 B.C. Do we ever question Pyramid and Stonehenge? No, because we can see it and touch it. But yet it's not proven by modern science right? Ain't this are the assumptions of
most of us? Think about it when we're questioning the truth of Astrology.

maybe i should rephrase my words. in science, nothing is accepted nor rejected until it's proven. How do you know astrology is true? how do you know its the truth when you yourself can't even prove it? Just because you can't prove it or deny it doesn't mean astrology is true.

_earth: This is not my assumption. That's how the majority think. Are you one of them?

alright then. where's the proof that the majority reject the truth?

[wwhong]

_earth wrote:in science, nothing is accepted nor rejected until it's proven. How do you know astrology is true? how do you know its the truth when you yourself can't even prove it? Just because you can't prove it or deny it doesn't mean astrology is true.

or maybe we can also say how do u know its not true when you yourself can't even prove it? just because you can't prove it or deny it doesn't mean astrology is false.

[littlebigone]

Okay interesting arguments.

wwhong said: maybe we can also say how do u know its not true when you yourself can't even prove it? just because you can't prove it or deny it doesn't mean astrology is false.

well, I guess I would say that no confirmed information is as good as false information in this sense. If we can't prove the validity of astrology, then there is no place for astrology in our decision makings and in the paths that we choose in life. Until there is proof, I guess astrology will remain a pseudoscience and not make any impact in practical life. So I would encourage those who think astrology holds some truth to pursue their passion; to show the rest of us the "truth". But till then, I will have to remain a sceptic.

wwhong said:"seeing" the future provide kinda mental or moral support for someone.

I would say then that astrology would have it's supporters and it's debunkers if this is one of the good points of astrology. I don't believe in looking into the future. It is my believe that if I can do that, it is the same thing as giving up my rights of choice. Sure, you may feel comforted for awhile. But then if this were the case, wouldn't it mean that there is absolutely no purpose in your life? It;s as if no matter what I do, I will end up at some destination. Even if there were a couple of destinations, then it is as if my life is just one probabilistic consequence. I have no purpose so I should just stop living. This is my philosophy of life and I understand that some people would think differently.



soul_out: I don't see how the chicken and egg argument can help push the point that we should give astrology a chance even if we don't know the truth yet. Us eating the chicken or egg does not depend on whether the egg or chicken come first. But us believing in astrology does depend on if the available proofs are convincing enough. Maybe you could clarify your argument as I don't see how it makes sense now.

[__earth]

to wwhong: i believe littlebigone has explained your question on my behave.

[wwhong]

littlebigone said :But then if this were the case, wouldn't it mean that there is absolutely no purpose in your life? It;s as if no matter what I do, I will end up at some destination. Even if there were a couple of destinations, then it is as if my life is just one probabilistic consequence. I have no purpose so I should just stop living

yeah, absolutely agree. life really have no meaning if it's already been destined. hmm...i think i should say those fortune telling give some kind of "you can do it" encouragement. like if it said you gonna be successful in ur career, then you won't give up so easily? that's why people chose what to believe and what not to believe in astrology. still come down to uncertainty of the future.

"Until there is proof, I guess astrology will remain a pseudoscience and not make any impact in practical life:

actually i myself is sceptic about astrology. but i remember what my teacher told me "just because you don't know doesn't mean something doesn't exist" so just kinda flip it the other way and think about it.

at the end still come down to the same thing : believe it or not.

[__earth]

wwhong: destiny and astrology are two different things.

astrology claims it could guarantee what's your destiny is.
destiny, well, it depends on one's perception but it's certainly not astrology.

[weiweiann]

good day mates...

soul_out wrote:
_earth: This is not my assumption. That's how the majority think. Are you one of them?

alright then. where's the proof that the majority reject the truth?

as what the Vigilante said, absence of evidence doesnt mean the evidence of absence... however, as we can see from the discussion, most of the ppl deny the truth predicted by astrologers... n saying that those astrologers r juz simply making the general claims... yeah... perhaps so. But do u guys believe in "inborn personality" ?? probably our inborn personality is influenced by the location of stars n time... but our environment + family has changed us... This has been proven by the geneticists that our behaviour has been shaped by our environment. so we cant push all the inaccuracy of personality analysis to astrology itself...

3) silverblue has quoted several stuff, which mostly are from skepdic.com. One of them, "If oysters open and close their shells in accordance with the tides, which flow in accordance with the electromagnetic and gravitational forces of the sun and moon, and humans are full of water, then isn?t it obvious that the moon must influence humans as well?"

yeah... Vigilante, do u know YOGA?? i've read some articles abt yoga n they r more or less pointing out that there is connection between gravitational forces of moon with human body... so those who learning YOGA will puasa on the first n 15th days in one month... they do this in order to avoid their emotion being influenced by the gravitational forces from moon... this example proving that those stars probably have influences over our behaviour... furthermore, i dun think the modern astrologers will follow the concept of ancient astrologers blindly if it is juz simply a crap... for u, will u study blindly???

anyway, enjoy ur day...

cheers,
weiann :idea:

[littlebigone]

yeah... Vigilante, do u know YOGA?? i've read some articles abt yoga n they r more or less pointing out that there is connection between gravitational forces of moon with human body... so those who learning YOGA will puasa on the first n 15th days in one month... they do this in order to avoid their emotion being influenced by the gravitational forces from moon... this example proving that those stars probably have influences over our behaviour...

first of all weiweiann, I enjoy reading your posts. They are very enthusiastic and interesting.

I woud like to however comment on your statement that the above is a proof.

First let's state the facts:
a) Yoga people point out that there is a connection between the gravitational forces of the moon and the human body
b) Because of a), Yoga people fast for the first 15 days of a month to avoid their emotion being influenced by these forces.

Your conclusion, the gravitational forces of the moon affects the human behaviour.

First, I would like to ask, is a) proven?
Secondly, how is a) a statement regarding the physical body affect b), a statement about the emotional aspect of a human being.
And lastly, is emotion and physique related to a human behavior? Are you trying to say that humans lack rational thought and that all their actions are based upon emotions.

I know I'm being picky. You probably have more details taht you did not share with us. I must say that I am really not well versed with these materials at all. But as a skeptic, I must say that you have very interesting points and I would hope that you continue to post and let us know more about astrology.

[soul_out]

Littlebigone: Guess the egg and chicken theory is not appropriate here. See if we look at bomoh(Thailand or Malaysia Style,i don't know the appropriate translation to use,tell me if u know), we can't explain it in modern science yet we agree with their impact in some people life right?

[soul_out]

Besides sharing our opinions and GETTING INFORMATION FROM SOME REFERENCES(This is not a debate la), self experience is very important. If you talk about YOGA, don't just simply say "i read from this article that bla bla bla". You will only know something better when you start doing it or try it.

Sometimes in life, some amazing experiences will change your life totally.

[soul_out]

_earth: "astrology claims it could guarantee what's your destiny is. "

Where did u came across this statement? From some sort of profit-making astrology site or your personal idea?

[__earth]

then, what is astrology?

[Ishveir]

Hello All,

Well unlike some other long posts with credible facts i have no facts but Views of credible people.
I remember John Edward (psychic and medium) saying that being skeptic is ok as you are in to learn and argue but cynics are those faint hearted, those afraid to accept change and learn. Learning as in new explanation and revolution in defining to what i personally think unexplained phenomenon and disciplines. One of the important one is Astrology.
My suggestion is open up although if all the facts and if all science denies its veracity. :idea: It is important to listen to our hearts and not up above where often the mind rules. It is funny our human mind, how it differs with our emotions, but im not suggesting we should make decisions based on out heart and "what we feel is right" notions, but with considerations and human views from those we know and those that are close to us.
I personally have been interested in palmistry and nummerology and can state numerous facts to those who would want to know about its level of accuracy. Impressive i have to say, but just as the sun's ray - it reaches even the most secluded (open,uncovered)places on earth, however not the places shielded by us humans ourselves - ;)
open up peeps, if there is no such thing it wouldnt have been so talked about even at these times..
Individuality though remains the primary concern, leave it to ourselves to worry about our thoughts not others.
have a good day 8)

[soul_out]

Below are some chinese words. Please help us to translate into appropriate English or Malay words if you know.

降头 : Origin from Thailand. It can kill, control or affect somebody from far away(let say Thailand to Malaysia) as long as the master of 降头 has something from the target, for instance DOB & hair. I personally never experience it before but i'm sure you heard of it before.

Up to this moment we still can't explain it by modern science, but do we deny its existence? Where do they learn the 降头 from?

We don't know. But we accept that it is working, it is true. (It is scary).

[soul_out]

Brother _earth:

What is astrology?

Source:

http://www.astrology.com/aboutastrology/overview/understanding/

"Despite all these connections, Astrology does not tie you to being a certain way, and it doesn't predict everything about you. Astrology explains the energy in your life and its potential challenges and possibilities. You can evolve from your chart. Astrology is about you. What you can learn from it can help you make a choice between free will and DESTINY." Taken from that website as well.

I agree with that.

So you now you admit that you actually arbitrarily assume that "Astrology claims that it could guarantee what your destiny is" huh?

[__earth]

nope. try reading the article your posted again. btw read this http://www.wayofheaven.com/horoscope_note_destiny.asp.

The birth symbol portrays what there is to work with BEFORE one's nature has settled and become oneself (or should we say second nature?). The term would seem to imply that nothing is pre-determined at this stage in life! Later on, however, the naming of the symbol of one's mature years presupposes that some sort of nature has now formed and is in control of us.

and read this too http://www.probe.org/docs/astrology.html. also, an interesting case in the second website

In his book, In Defense of Astrology, Robert Parry attempts to defend astrology against the twelve most common objections that are usually raised against it. Let's consider just one of these: the problem of twins.

Some twins are born within minutes of each other, yet they may lead very different lives. But if one's character and destiny are largely determined by the positions of the heavenly bodies at the time of birth, we would expect twins to be remarkably similar in these respects. Clearly, however, this is not always the case. Even Parry admits that one twin may die quite young while "the other lives on to a ripe old age."{17} As an astrologer, how does he deal with this difficulty?

I don't assume :)

[soul_out]

1. "sort of nature has now formed and is in control of us."

In control the behaviour & characteristics of us i would say. They never say destiny right?

Destiny "is the EVENTS that will NECESSARILY happen to a particular person in the future" Quote from the Concise of Oxford Dictionary.


2. "That is, the tendencies from the moment of birth have by now have coagulated and become us, unless Man's free will has intervened and changed the course of the natural tendencies inherent in the birth symbol! " Quote from the website that Bro _earth posted.

That's right. Behaviour & Characteristics are influenced, by knowing and understand it via Astrology, you know yourself better. When you know yourself well, only you will be able to improve(get rid of the bad and optimise the good 1) yourself and achieve your goal of life easier/confidently.

[__earth]

it's true we could make ourselves better by knowing "I" better. but astrology doesnt help. read the second articles. it debunks your points.

also, from dictionary.com

Note: Astrology was much in vogue during the Middle Ages, and became the parent of modern astronomy, as alchemy did of chemistry. It was divided into two kinds: judicial astrology, which assumed to foretell the fate and acts of nations and individuals, and natural astrology, which undertook to predict events of inanimate nature, such as changes of the weather, etc.

[soul_out]

I'm not an Astrologist. But guess i've presume the arguments of the Twins in my previous post. There are currently only 12 time intervals in both Chinese & English Astrology. But i presume that the time intervals can be divided into hours, minutes, seconds and even milliseconds. For instance, we was once think that atom are the smallest substance in the world, but actually it consists of nucleus, proton n electron.

[soul_out]

Bro _earth posted,

"Note: Astrology was much in vogue during the Middle Ages, and became the parent of modern astronomy, as alchemy did of chemistry. It was divided into two kinds: judicial astrology, which assumed to foretell the fate and acts of nations and individuals, and natural astrology, which undertook to predict events of inanimate nature, such as changes of the weather, etc."

1. The explaination above told us about how astrology WAS divided and it's function in ANCIENT time.

2. One can choose to believe or not Astrology determine their DESTINY. But i never came across any Astrology book or defination said that "Destiny is determined by Astrology. So do i don't believe in astrology determine one's destiny.

[littlebigone]

See if we look at bomoh(Thailand or Malaysia Style,i don't know the appropriate translation to use,tell me if u know), we can't explain it in modern science yet we agree with their impact in some people life right?

er...no I don't agree with their impact. I think they are a hoax personally.

[littlebigone]

Below are some chinese words. Please help us to translate into appropriate English or Malay words if you know.

降头 : Origin from Thailand. It can kill, control or affect somebody from far away(let say Thailand to Malaysia) as long as the master of 降头 has something from the target, for instance DOB & hair. I personally never experience it before but i'm sure you heard of it before.

Up to this moment we still can't explain it by modern science, but do we deny its existence? Where do they learn the 降头 from?

We don't know. But we accept that it is working, it is true. (It is scary).


I believe you're talking about voodoo. And again, I don't accept that it works. I don't believe it's true.

[littlebigone]

Hello All,
Impressive i have to say, but just as the sun's ray - it reaches even the most secluded (open,uncovered)places on earth, however not the places shielded by us humans ourselves

nice quote. I have one for you too.

"for those desperate for some kind of light, even the low ebb of a dying flashlight can be their sunlight"

:P

[__earth]

1. The explaination above told us about how astrology WAS divided and it's function in ANCIENT time.

note the word ancient. when astrology and astronomy were one, the one part that was working was the science, not astrology. Science departed from astrology when the think tanks realized that astrology doesnt work.

2. One can choose to believe or not Astrology determine their DESTINY. But i never came across any Astrology book or defination said that "Destiny is determined by Astrology. So do i don't believe in astrology determine one's destiny.

one point that I with agree you. Astrology has nothing to do with one's destiny despite the definition. :)

[soul_out]

Littlebigone: Ya, it's some type of voodoo from Thailand. Maybe it's because of you're not from the North and the source and story of those Thailand voodoo is hardly to get in English translation, so that you don't believe in it. It doen't cause any impact in your life because you never affected by it, so do your other family members or friends(i presumed...:O) )

[Schye]

I myself wont for the help of voodoo but again i cant deny that i have heard or seen quite a lot of cases. In fact, some of my friends learn about it and are practising it.

I cant say that it is TRUE but I do believe its existance though.

[weiweiann]

:wink: hello...

littlebigone, thx for ur appreciation... i know it's hard to convince u guys by saying that... "i read from some articles..." but that's true... i dun think i still can find the articles out as i read them long long time ago... anyway, soul_out, thx for ur suggestion... i'll try to figure out what YOGA is in my real life... abt astrology... i got quite a lot of info abt it.. but there is condition applied, which is... u muz first believe in the existence of it... then only we can continue...

yeah... u guys know iQing, rite?? he's no more in recom, doesnt he?? btw, can anyone tell me what is HP,MP n EXP?? thx...

cheers,
weiann :o

[Ishveir]

Hello All,
Impressive i have to say, but just as the sun's ray - it reaches even the most secluded (open,uncovered)places on earth, however not the places shielded by us humans ourselves

nice quote. I have one for you too.

"for those desperate for some kind of light, even the low ebb of a dying flashlight can be their sunlight"

:P


Agreed man, but take it easy i was trying to make a personal view out of which it was a personal quote too. Might have not maken sense to those who shelter themselves and not let the natural sun's ray to get to them and in returnrely on man's creation the flashlight.

[soul_out]

Guess we have (too) many interesting and constructive post regarding this topic. Shall we stop now? :o

[Ishveir]

Guess we have (too) many interesting and constructive post regarding this topic. Shall we stop now? :o

chill we shall go on 8)

[silverblue]

Stop?? Why? hehehe I think this was a very good topic and it had generate many good, informative and educational posts....

We should put up more topics like these because I feel that sometimes, people believe in alot of pseudosciences without realizing it. It's good to shed light on some superstitious practises just so that we become educated people who believe base on facts and science, and not just because it's a 'cultural' thing or something 'seemingly' widespead.

:)

[soul_out]

Stop because i think we have had enough posts for astrology. May we start a new discussion to continue our arguments regarding pseudoscience and superstitious?

[Vigilante]

I have refrained myself from putting my comments lately. Or was it because I was too busy 'studying'? Or maybe I guess I have nothing left to say. I made my points in my previous posts. My main tool to discourage astrology are logic and reason. Anyone who still think that astrology has its validity, then I have nothing more to say to convince the person otherwise.

I would just like to sum it all up here.

1) Astrology is never in any way scientific. It is pseudoscience because of its attempt to use science ie laws of gravity to validify its claims. Public is often taken into astrology because they thought science is backing astrology.

2) It's claims are baseless and offer no logical explanations to how it works.

3) There is never any solid evidence that supports astrology. Proper experiments on astrology prediction and character analysis failed to show any results.

4) Its claims contradicts scientific laws. Perhaps the scientific laws are wrong. Possible, but very unlikely because of points 2) and 3)

Conclusion: I do not know if movements of space objects influence us in any way. But based on the points 2) 3) and 4), I can safely conclude that it is very unlikely the case.

Given such low probability that astrology works, I am greatly disappointed of its widespread popularity. Almost every entertainment magazine and newspaper has a section on it. There are more astrologers than astronomers. It sold more books than scientific non-fiction books.

I believe it is our responsibility to create awareness about astrology and also other pseudoscience. We don't have to go around bashing astrology, but we could provide the other half of the story that the media has failed tremendously. Just walk into any bookstore. You will find more books on fortune-telling and pseudoscience than those that debunks them. If the public is more informed and and know the basics of astronomy, perhaps they will question astrology and thus better judgements can be made.


btw, I have strong doubts on bomoh. I do not hear much about them and what they could do. However I do recall reading on the newspaper several times (mainly Sunday (Malay) Mail) about bomoh's being arrested because they tricked their victims into believing that devils went into their customers' body and the only way to perform exorcist is having sex with the bomoh-s.

[littlebigone]

okay...i think it's about time we end this discussion since we're going around in circles. We'll wait till weiweiann post her conclusion then I'll lock the thread.

If you think any of the things that we discussed here merits another thread, feel free to start one.

Till then, let's wait for weiweiann's reply.

[__earth]

i dont think we should close the thread. rather, let just the thread dies out on itself. What is the purpose of closing this thread and let another one being opened?
Also, let's keep the spirit of free speech roams in Recom :)

[weiweiann]

hello everybody..

thx for everyone's participation... that's good to exchange our opinions thru this pathway... not matter what conclusion we get, i think most of us still believe in what we used to believe. Study of astrology wont stop bcoz of what we have argued... so, my conclusion is... time will unveil the truth... mayb 10 yrs.. mayb 100yrs... last but not least, something to share with u guys... "reading rot ur mind"... this is taken from one of the famous scientists..cant recall his name... so, have fun n have a good day.

cheers,
weiann 8)

[soul_out]

If reading rot your mind, then why do we need to read to update and upgrade ourselves?

Read with critical thinking, by soul_out. :twisted:

hi..

well...

i tot the yesterday msg is my last msg for this topic... anyway, "reading rot ur mind" doesnt mean that u dun have to study... it implies that we need to have critical thinking to what we've read... furthermore, there is one chinese proverb saying that "believe in books 100% rather have no book."

regards,
weiann :twisted:

[chenchow]

i agree with _earth that this topic be left open. If anyone finds anymore interesting article or information on this topic, we can always come back and post something, isn't it? Thanks everyone for sharing a lot of idea and information on this issue!

[Zjellen]

Hello ppl :D

8O Interesting topics here 8O !

I believe the world of the mysterious and the realm of the unknown, are always intriguing to us all albeit it can be harmful, and dangerous too.

As I was reading the previous threads replies, I read that some of the recom members' friends do actually practice voodoo. It is also a kind of the dark arts, right?

However, the local tribes in Malaysia too have their own dark arts practices. You all know about the bomohs, right? The kind of dark arts practiced by the bomohs and voodoo is quite similar. Please correct me if I am wrong.

But I heard a lot of people say that when you practice the dark arts, in will come back to you. In fact, ten folds. Then, I believe those who frequently practice it must possess some kinds of protections in order to ward off evil essences from harming them.

What say you all?

Regards,
Zjellen

[Ishveir]

Well like Zjellen says, the world indeed is unXplained by itself. our sole existence even can be argued, how then can we be so certain so to what is and what is not.
Therefore, like i mentioned earlier keep an open mind coupled with acceptance.
About bomohs and the black art, that is right. Once you are into it then why would you want to get out since you have the spirits to do everything for you and you earn money too.
However, there are some medicine men who help people(victims of black magic) - curing them using prayers and through trances of dieties, i personally know that these good people exist.
In addition, one can only agree to the existence of these unXplained phenomenon once he/she has seen it or gone through it. After all, the truth is out there.