View Full Version : Law:is it tough?
I m a F6 student now,interested in law,but not rally sure if i can do that.People said Law studies is second toughest to medicine.Is it really that though?Is it only about memorise works or what?Some said if u r good in Sejarah,u can do well in law,is that true? 8O
If i compare law to sejarah SPM,what is the ratio ?(of course i know sejarah SPM is nothing compare to law,but i hope to get a rough picture of the difficulties)
minyi_lim
05-05-2005, 11:08 PM
i am goin to study form 6 dis year...n i hope to study law after dis.
so i would like to get more information too...
anyone can help??
jacyn
11-05-2005, 03:31 PM
it will be pretty interesting if u really like the subject. nah.. nothing to do with sejarah though.. :roll:
reign226
11-05-2005, 07:43 PM
I have a friend who is studying law, and I am also involved in mooting (check out the Education thread). From what I know and personally heard, law is an arts subjective, and not a science, fittingly so.
My friend says there's a ton of stuff to memorize. All the acts, statutes, enactments, the whole nine yards. To excel in it, you need to remember and recall these laws down to the fine point. This is not to mention the extremely high degree of proficiency in English that it demands from the lawyer-to-be. Basically, if you have problems reading, say, Lord of the Rings, you will have problems. If you haven't tried reading LotR, you're welcome to try.
If you still don't believe me, go to this page: http://www.bond.edu.au/law/mootcomp/2005/malaysia.htm. Click on the Sabah topic (it's PDF. Sorry.) and at the end are several links to actual cases (that you have to read). Give those a shot. Basically, I think lawyers need at least an A1 in SPM English 1119, and if not mistaken a minimum of Band 5 in MUET(or 6. I'm not sure. If it's not Band 6, it should be).
If you got your English down pat, the rest is just reading, and reading, and more reading. Being a lawyer is certainly not as glamorous as the chinese serials portray them. Oratary skills are not demanded, because not all lawyers will be able to be prosecuters, etc. Lawyers can still make a handy living just by doing paperwork. If you're naturally timid, don't let this be a barrier to you. Laws is not impressive displays of verbal speech, but how accurrate you represent the facts.
In short, yes I believe whatever memorization skills picked up during Sejarah will help tremendously, if only because both are related to cramming information into the brain. That said, many law students also come from the science-stream, because constructing an argument (in the case of a moot at least) demands the highest unification of the skills of creative and critical thought, language proficiency and an added factor of luck.
If i am willing to work hard,surely i will be able to cope with it?
Or it can only be studied by some brilliant student?
If i am not good at talking,will it be a problem for me?I know that in UM,law students need to practice mooting in second year,how will it affect the result?
jacyn
12-05-2005, 12:22 AM
erm.. u nd a minimum of band 6.5 in either MUET, IELTS, of TOEFL..that's provided u plan to obtain law degree in foreign universities. well, perhaps it's a wise decision to attend m.trial..
not only those statues,and so on.. u'll nd to know certain latin words too. oh what can i say? law is interesting :lol:
Seems like u are really enjoying yourself.Actually,i dun have much problem with my language but i used to be a ermm....timid person,that is one of the problem that i worry about my MUET ...talking in front of public actually is a barrier to me .
reign226
12-05-2005, 10:21 PM
There is no band 6.5 for MUET. This is assuming you're not trying to be sarcastic.
Some of the common latin words are, quid pro quo, sub peona, prima facie, habeas corpus, etc. However, despite the fancy use of Latin in legal discussions, the actual usage of Latin in courts both in oral conduct is not encouraged. In fact, they actually regard it as being vulgar.
It's like you're beind condenscending by using a language the layperson cannot understand. In written law, it's much more common, owing to the fact that most laws have been laid a LOOOONG time ago when latin is encouraged to be used to prevent the laypeople from understanding them.
jacyn
14-05-2005, 10:06 AM
hmz..i apologize then i don't take Muet so i'm not sure what they have for that.oh, but it seems that my lecturer kind of encourages us to use more latin terms.
oh Btw, thanx for informing :lol:
i learn something new today :lol:
chenchow
14-05-2005, 11:07 AM
Personally, I believe that you shouldn't need to do much memorization for law. I am not a Law student, but on the other hand, only took a semester of Business Law, so mostly know about some fundamental of Contract, Agency Law, Tort etc.
Based on my experience, it is more about application. The Law exams that I have taken over here, have been open book, so there is no need to memorize at all. Pretty much, what we would need to do would be to understand all the statutes, precedences etc, and then apply it to the current situation.
So, a lot would be on convincing others about the stand on an issue of law. Pretty much, all the exams that I have, would be that we are given a few cases, and for each case, we would need to write as if we are the prosecutor or defence counsel, and write out our arguments, pretty much doing what a lawyer would be doing.
So, I strongly disagree that a lawyer needs to memorize. It is more upon understanding. Just like history, there is no need to memorize, although a lot of people choose to do so.
stevemc90
16-05-2005, 06:35 AM
If i am not good at talking,will it be a problem for me?I know that in UM,law students need to practice mooting in second year,how will it affect the result?
you are the one who asked about the ratio right? let me see 1:1000? why are you asking the ratio? yes, you've to get an A for history in order to read law but that's not a necessity.
for you info, if you're lucky enough to be in UM's law fac, you'll have a special privilige that others dont have (excluding grads from overseas), you'll be given priority by local law firms in terms of chambering and hiring.
You've got to do moot anyhow. so, it doesnt matter if you're in any uni or foreign unis :)
in UM, the moot is not a subject but a practice. So, there's no grade for it. Just pass or fail. and Fail is not an option, i can tell you that.
:D
stevemc90
16-05-2005, 08:35 AM
I have a friend who is studying law, and I am also involved in mooting (check out the Education thread). From what I know and personally heard, law is an arts subjective, and not a science, fittingly so.
My friend says there's a ton of stuff to memorize. All the acts, statutes, enactments, the whole nine yards. To excel in it, you need to remember and recall these laws down to the fine point. This is not to mention the extremely high degree of proficiency in English that it demands from the lawyer-to-be. Basically, if you have problems reading, say, Lord of the Rings, you will have problems. If you haven't tried reading LotR, you're welcome to try.
If you still don't believe me, go to this page: http://www.bond.edu.au/law/mootcomp/2005/malaysia.htm. Click on the Sabah topic (it's PDF. Sorry.) and at the end are several links to actual cases (that you have to read). Give those a shot. Basically, I think lawyers need at least an A1 in SPM English 1119, and if not mistaken a minimum of Band 5 in MUET(or 6. I'm not sure. If it's not Band 6, it should be).
If you got your English down pat, the rest is just reading, and reading, and more reading. Being a lawyer is certainly not as glamorous as the chinese serials portray them. Oratary skills are not demanded, because not all lawyers will be able to be prosecuters, etc. Lawyers can still make a handy living just by doing paperwork. If you're naturally timid, don't let this be a barrier to you. Laws is not impressive displays of verbal speech, but how accurrate you represent the facts.
In short, yes I believe whatever memorization skills picked up during Sejarah will help tremendously, if only because both are related to cramming information into the brain. That said, many law students also come from the science-stream, because constructing an argument (in the case of a moot at least) demands the highest unification of the skills of creative and critical thought, language proficiency and an added factor of luck.
looks like you've a LOT of misconceptions about reading law as i can see here.
1) apart from memorizing landmark cases, you've nothing to remember about. Regarding to the statutes (statutes are acts), you can always bring in a copy of statute for your examination purposes provided that it's 'clean'
2) I agree with you on the very least proficiency of english that you must have but please bear in mind that no matter how great you are, there's no guarantee that you'll understand what the judges said especially when you're reading the english cases. The reason i say this is because that due to the changes in time, the standard has totally changed regardless of the rules that were used back then. Thus, by getting band 6 in MUET or A1 in 1119, it doesnt guarantee you anything in understanding the judgments.
3) Convincing skill is important to a lawyer regardless if you're doing litigation or conveyancing as both you have to convince the judge in order to win a case and your client to have faith in you.
4) For your information Aki, latin words are still being used in the court except for USA because they're changing the words to simplified English (latin words are still being used despite of that). And there's no such thing as those words are considered as vulgar as being informed
According to Jacyn, mock trial is helpful but i disagree with that as mock trial is done by the students without the help of the lecturers. So, i dont see any importance of attending a mock trial session that'll help to improve her public speaking skills
Somehow, i agree with what Chenchow said in terms of open book and what not, as far as i'm concerned, you can do it only in tests and there's a system in UK which allows the students to have the questions days before the exam (no books are allowed during the exam)
lastly, law is not only meant for smart students :wink:
Thanks for all,all of you have helped me a lot.But I have to state that i didn't get A for sejarah bcos i want to study law,i ask the ratio because i still have a vulgar concept about law studies,so i m trying to establish a connection between law studying and something i have known. I hope to know more about it before i decide to jump into it.I want to make sure that law studying is something i can cope with but i still don't have the confidence to do so right now.Finally,thanks again. :) Anyway,peolpe say lawyers are too many nowadays so the competition is very high,what do u think?
stevemc90
16-05-2005, 10:14 AM
really? well, i dont think so... LLB holders might be a lot but not practising lawyers. you see, those who got ther LLB from abroad have to either be a member of an inn in uk (namely lincoln, temple... others i dont remember hehe...) or u've to take CLP if you intend to practise in Malaysia.
Bear in mind that CLP is not as easy as STPM or SPM. and the percentage to fail is very high.
For local law grads, they dont have to take any exams because the degrees from local unis are recognized by the bar council.
Here's a lil info for u,
after grad, chamber for 9 months, then u'll be called to the bar (bar council), u'll be legal assistant in law firms (if big firms, u'll take around 7 years to be a full flagged lawyer, vice versa)
if you dont wish to chamber, you can apply to be a magistrate (provided that ur result is good enough) in judiciary or you can also work for the Attorney's Chamber (you'll be draftman, Deputy Public Prosecutor etc)
:wink:
Have any of u ever seen a law graduate unemployed...haha...i know this is a funny question...
Anyway,practising lawyer will still finally become a lawyer,so the competition is still tough right?
stevemc90
16-05-2005, 03:00 PM
come on.... umemployed? u r kidding me... professional won't be unemployed so no worries..... :P
competition? what sort of competition are you talking about? litigation wise, one case... you only need a case to make you famous.. conveyanciyng lawyers dont compete with each other except for those who are business minded :)
hahaha :oops: ....but law firm is a business..
stevemc90
16-05-2005, 08:00 PM
you might think that some really do it for the sake of money but not all. Most of them practice are because of the passion. that's the thing you've got to learn.
sorry if i have made any offence,i know that many people do this out of passion,what i m trying to say is that someone who study law need to be very outstanding in case to suceed among all the graduates.(and pls dun misunderstood,i m definitely not a money-minded person)
stevemc90
17-05-2005, 01:00 AM
no worries. im not offended
it seems it tough for a freah law graduate with the necessary qualifications to find a job these days, at least a job that the graduate enjoys.......
stevemc90
17-05-2005, 09:58 PM
it seems it tough for a freah law graduate with the necessary qualifications to find a job these days, at least a job that the graduate enjoys.......
it depends on what type of job these fresh grads are applying for... besides, it's not only that the LLB is matter, other qualities that the grads have have to be taken into consideration as well. :)
it seems it tough for a freah law graduate with the necessary qualifications to find a job these days, at least a job that the graduate enjoys.......
it depends on what type of job these fresh grads are applying for... besides, it's not only that the LLB is matter, other qualities that the grads have have to be taken into consideration as well. :)
a decent job that would give them some chance to develop their potential.
from what i know, if u are a fresh graduate, chances are u won't be able to get a job which u like in our country. U would most probably an office boy or some office clerk for quite a number of years. I am not talking rubbish. I am speaking from experience, my brother wanted to practise here but was offered a job in another country, his mentor, zaid ibrahim told him to seize the opportunity as he will most likely enjoy what that job has to offer instead of working in a local law firm. Now, he says he has no regrets taking up that job.
I didn't understand what u guys mean a job u will enjoy,of course ,i mean 98% law graduates will work in a law firm or with goverment,except some in bussiness world or couldn't get a job from law firm.So the job will almost same for every law graduates,right?
I didn't understand what u guys mean a job u will enjoy,of course ,i mean 98% law graduates will work in a law firm or with goverment,except some in bussiness world or couldn't get a job from law firm.So the job will almost same for every law graduates,right?
a job that u enjoy.......take my brother for an example, yes u will be working in a law firm, however working in a law firm may not necessarily make u happy, u could be just an office clerk, doing the typing, making coffee and stuff, really nothing to do with ur qualification. In other words, u may not be given opportunities to practise ur legal skills.
That is what my brother says, he enjoys what he is doing, thanks to the chances and opportunities given by his Boss. Heck, he even got a Xbox as a christmas present, because the firm my brother is working at did a great job for microsoft.
reign226
18-05-2005, 08:36 PM
Haha, i seem to be horribly misinformed. Thanks for the corrections. I apologize.
On the subject, does this mean we have to work for the government upon graduation? Also, i hear that it's hard for science students to be admitted into Law. How true is that?
Haha, i seem to be horribly misinformed. Thanks for the corrections. I apologize.
On the subject, does this mean we have to work for the government upon graduation? Also, i hear that it's hard for science students to be admitted into Law. How true is that?
If u r talking about local law schools then it might be true, however if u r talking about British universities, then it is not true. They have no preference over what combination, they just want to see 3 reasonable A-level grades.
stevemc90
18-05-2005, 10:58 PM
in UM, 3.91 cgpa will be needed for the sci students. others, im not sure.
anyway, back to bush...
errr.... you were saying that Zaid ibrahim advised ur bro to take up another job right? good for him :) at least he's happy with his job now.
anywany, of course u'll have to do those paperworks etc (office boy? really? i doubt that) and you wont be able to have the chance to practice at first.
the reason i said it is because that you've got to learn from the beginning. well, unless that u come from a very well off family that can afford to open a law firm for ur bro, u'll have to start from the scratch my fren. you've to admit that when u go to the working world, u'll face a lot of probs... for law grads, if they wanna practice, they've to become a 'clerk' you would say (the official term for fresh grads are legal assistant).
it's good that the offer ur bro got was good and the boss is a very good boss. if i were Zaid ibrahim, i would've asked the fresh grad to go for it too.
in my opinion, the most important thing is the drive. if you feel that u r not supposed to do those kind of things, well, maybe u r not that passionate about ur job. i remember saying that a fresh law grad needs 7 years to climb from a legal assistant to be a partner. that's the fact that u have to live with. if you like it, you do it, if you dont, nothing can be done.
anyway, not neccesarily u need 7 years. if u r outstanding enough, maybe 2-3 years?
btw, aki said something about 89% of law grads are working in the law industry... well, as im being told... only 20% are working in the industry. yes, it's TWENTY PERCENT.
hehehe..... ciao
in UM, 3.91 cgpa will be needed for the sci students. others, im not sure.
anyway, back to bush...
errr.... you were saying that Zaid ibrahim advised ur bro to take up another job right? good for him :) at least he's happy with his job now.
anywany, of course u'll have to do those paperworks etc (office boy? really? i doubt that) and you wont be able to have the chance to practice at first.
the reason i said it is because that you've got to learn from the beginning. well, unless that u come from a very well off family that can afford to open a law firm for ur bro, u'll have to start from the scratch my fren. you've to admit that when u go to the working world, u'll face a lot of probs... for law grads, if they wanna practice, they've to become a 'clerk' you would say (the official term for fresh grads are legal assistant).
it's good that the offer ur bro got was good and the boss is a very good boss. if i were Zaid ibrahim, i would've asked the fresh grad to go for it too.
in my opinion, the most important thing is the drive. if you feel that u r not supposed to do those kind of things, well, maybe u r not that passionate about ur job. i remember saying that a fresh law grad needs 7 years to climb from a legal assistant to be a partner. that's the fact that u have to live with. if you like it, you do it, if you dont, nothing can be done.
anyway, not neccesarily u need 7 years. if u r outstanding enough, maybe 2-3 years?
btw, aki said something about 89% of law grads are working in the law industry... well, as im being told... only 20% are working in the industry. yes, it's TWENTY PERCENT.
hehehe..... ciao
obviously u need to start from the bottom, but whether u are given the chance to rise is one, whether u r recognised and paid accordingly is another............
according to my brother, who recently gave advise to a friend of mine who aspires to be a lawyer, if one wants to be a solicitor, the person needs to get a training contract from a solicitor's firm and because the competition is strong, many people end up paralegaling waiting for a chance to come by.
stevemc90
19-05-2005, 02:56 AM
i agree and i understand the situation that the law grads are facing but when there's a will, there's a way right? :wink:
Seems like someone who want to ba lawyer need to be really determind and enthusiastic in this field,if not, it would be really tough to wait for 7 years.But there is a cousin of my best friend who studies law in UM,he is a very outstanding student and get a job offer from one of a largest law firm in Malaysia before he even graduates.I wonder what qualities do we need to possess in order to become a outstanding law studens?anyway,do we need to remember exactly every date and act in law studies or there will be open book exams?
i agree and i understand the situation that the law grads are facing but when there's a will, there's a way right? :wink:
yes, if u given a chance to practise overseas, seize it as the job satisfaction, recognition and pay will be better
Seems like someone who want to ba lawyer need to be really determind and enthusiastic in this field,if not, it would be really tough to wait for 7 years.But there is a cousin of my best friend who studies law in UM,he is a very outstanding student and get a job offer from one of a largest law firm in Malaysia before he even graduates.I wonder what qualities do we need to possess in order to become a outstanding law studens?anyway,do we need to remember exactly every date and act in law studies or there will be open book exams?
to bush,
of course... i will hehehe :)
aki,
if u r rich enuf to open ur own firm, after chambering, u can practice on ur own :)
qualities? ermmmmmm you dont need to be a nerd to excel in this industry. trust me.
gee.... i thought i explained to u already. we are allowed to bring statutes into the examination hall. therefore, if u cant recall which sextion is for which, you can always refer the statue. they lecturers wont be asking u what date did he kill x or what date did he defame x etc..... they'll be straigh to the point, explain the case. so u need not to explain. and usually they wont even ask u to explain the case. what we need is the judges' ratio decidendi. the judgment i mean. the important part. i really hope u get it
and open book exam (i explained already in the first two pages of this forum). . no such thing. only open book test provided that the lecturer is good enough to allow that to happen.
:D Thx,i think i finally getting some idea about this.Ermm,if i just want to fill my past time and prepare myself a bit to study law,any begginer books about law i can read?
stevemc90
22-05-2005, 02:41 PM
:D Thx,i think i finally getting some idea about this.Ermm,if i just want to fill my past time and prepare myself a bit to study law,any begginer books about law i can read?
try:
glanville williams: learning the law
kenny philips : how to study law
but those recommended as above are quite 'heavy' for beginner like u...
or.... the simplest is the 'law for dummies' but i've never read that book so i dont know what the content is like....
:wink:
:D Thx,i think i finally getting some idea about this.Ermm,if i just want to fill my past time and prepare myself a bit to study law,any begginer books about law i can read?
try:
glanville williams: learning the law
kenny philips : how to study law
but those recommended as above are quite 'heavy' for beginner like u...
or.... the simplest is the 'law for dummies' but i've never read that book so i dont know what the content is like....
:wink:
the dummies series, quite good for beginners no matter what subject topic ..........after all, its meant for dummies.........
I wonder is there any slight diffrence between Malaysia law and foreign countries' law,because all the books u introduce are written by foreign authors?
stevemc90
23-05-2005, 09:31 AM
I wonder is there any slight diffrence between Malaysia law and foreign countries' law,because all the books u introduce are written by foreign authors?
well, those arent really law books. it's about how to learn law or shall i say that the authors teach u the way to tackle the problems in law? it's for the 1st year law students.... :)
difference in msia n other countries's law:
msia is using common law which is originated from UK.
most of the commenwealth countries are using UK's judgment as precedence if there's a lacuna in their systems.
Hey,anyway u said there wouldn't be any competition and law grads won't be unemployed?However,u said only 20%law grads are in law industry and law grads need to compete for solicitor training contract.This is the competition i mean...isn't this mean law grads are too much?
I found an horrifying ads in newspaper:Legal assistant wanted(4-5 years experience).Is this usual that law graduates become legal assiatant for more than 3 or 4 years and still don't get the chance to practise?
stevemc90
28-05-2005, 09:37 PM
I found an horrifying ads in newspaper:Legal assistant wanted(4-5 years experience).Is this usual that law graduates become legal assiatant for more than 3 or 4 years and still don't get the chance to practise?
only 20% going for law is because they really have interest in it
and ive already said... if u are not that good... it might take u up to 7 years b4 u can practise. anyway, if u can afford open ur own firm, im sure after chambers for 9 months, u already can do it...... but im not so sure of it...... :)
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