mini skirts banned in Kelantan & Terengganu [Archive]

wwhong

07-01-2004, 02:01 AM

i m sure most people read about the PAS government new policy banning females from wearing mini skirts, jeans and tight shirt at work place. for me, this is totally absurd and violates the right of females to dress the way they want. come on, we are living in the 21st century. are we still in ancient arabic world? I really can't imagine living in m'sia if PAS takes over. maybe by that time all females have to stay at home and prohibited from working?

we wants to achieve vision 2020 but seems like what PAS government is doing is to bring us back to 0202. instead of wasting time and energy on those trivial stuff, I really hope they can go ahead and do some constructive effort for the development of the country.

what's next? brother and sister have to stay in different house? different shopping complex for guy and girls? women have to be wrapped in carpet?

if PAS takes over Malaysia, I am out from there.

__earth

07-01-2004, 02:07 AM

mini skirts banned in m'sia?it should be read mini skirts banned in Kelantan, T'ganu. Not Msia. :D

topdog

07-01-2004, 02:14 AM

i've never lived in PAS-ruled kelantan or t'ganu so i don't feel qualified to comment on the situation there. but i must agree that a lot of rules implemented there seem very ridiculous.

i don't think PAS will be able to take over the entire country though. at least, that's what i hope... if they do take over, i'll give them a chance.

but i'll get the heck out of malaysia, too.

not trying to stir up anything, just being frank.

i'm actually curious to know how many recommers support PAS, and why.

masterof_none

07-01-2004, 02:48 AM

I can smell that this thread would turn out to be a political debates,
which , I don't think it's wise to do so. But we'll see how this problem can be fixed.

Thirdshifter

07-01-2004, 03:53 AM

Maybe pas thinks People in Kelantan and terangganu would find it hard to avoid jerking off. Since it's suppose to a sin if a Muslims jerks off. Oh well.. at least its not as bad in Saudi arabia.. women are not allowed to drive.

1st_Spirit

07-01-2004, 04:51 AM

__earth

07-01-2004, 07:11 AM

I'm against PAS but we can't call them dumb out of the blue.
Name calling is just a ticking time bomb.

I know this is going to be ugly some time soon but I would like to see ppl opinion on this, especially from the ppl on the other side of the fence.

laplace

07-01-2004, 08:52 AM

I do not know how you guys think. Of course I don't hope that PAS take over the whole msia. But if this happened, I guess I will stay with msia and I will never leave msia.

Why? Just think about it. We look at msia as a whole, msia is not categorized by religion, color-of-skin and so on. All religion, bumi/non-bumi categories are created by human only. If PAS take over msia, are you going to simply give up msia? If so, then we are not qualified to say we love msia, we only love the parties who rule msia, the environment of msia, the peaceful atmosphere of msia. We are taking msia for granted. When msia is in trouble, we plan to leave it.

Maybe you think I am naive, but PAS will not kill whoever live in Kelantan, it is just that their rules are ridiculous, crazy and totally don't match with our common-sense thats all. I guess, I will stay no matter who rule malaysia.

laplace..

wwhong

07-01-2004, 09:46 AM

first of all, i dun mean to create a politics debate here. i m just merely discussing the latest absurd policy (at least from my point of view, sorry if anyone is offended but that's just my opinion) by PAS and would like to see if anyone agrees with that and what's the logic behind that. will the rape case decrease after that? I doubt that. horny guys are still horny and maybe hornier.

other than that, what's wrong if we discuss politics/policies here as long as it's matured argument? that's one of the way to improve the current situation. open it up and discuss and see if any solution can be taken. of course those statement like which party is bodoh, which leader sucks should be banned totally.

I love M'sia for what it is now. Everyone has the basic freedom to do what they want (cannot compare to western but it's ok too) and it's peaceful. If Pas going to do the same thing IF they take over M'sia I will still love this land. But I am not going to live on a land with laws which I do not agree with. I am not saying Islam laws are bad but those laws like 4 muslim guys have to be the witnesses for rape case, chop off hand, etc I cannot and won't accept it at all. Yes, I respect Islam but I do not want to be forced to accept things that I don't fully agree with.

laplace, I doubt you will still love this land if it's under dictatorship and you won't have the freedom to do what you want. of course that's just my opinion and I don't know you at all.

again, I DO NOT mean to raise any heat debates in politics, race, or religion but those are just my 2 cents. sorry if I offend anyone

laplace

07-01-2004, 10:50 AM

Well, as I have mentioned, I do not know how you guys understand what I was trying to say :D

I love Malaysia because it WAS the place where I first "landed" on. I have been staying here for almost 30 years. I look at this country, not only the government and management, but also the places, weather, building, seas etc.

If I moved out here and stay in other country, I may be OK but I prefer to stay in my own country. Dictatorship, no freedom and so on... that will be expected IF PAS take control. For example, if someone's father pass away and the mother marry to another guy who claim to be your 2nd father. He is so strict and no freedom for you. I will still stay with the mother because I am staying with mother. Malaysia is my motherland, regardless of who is controlling, as long as I am still surviving and the new government will not be too uncivilized, I will not choose to leave Malaysia.

Actually we do not actually know what is the living environment of Kelantanese. Maybe the situation is not as bad as we can imagine. We should always think positive :wink:

laplace..

Cirnelle

07-01-2004, 11:16 AM

i dun think PAS will ever take over malaysia if the only topic its leaders are interested in is turning malaysia into a muslim country. i have nothing against muslims, but the way PAS's leaders make it sounds,eg, this mini skirt issue and banning women from performing on stage etc...i dunno what others think, but personally i think this is just plain wrong! talking about respecting other races' culture when they are doin exactly the opposite...aren't there so many more other issues and urgencies in our country which need solving? :?

i would learn to appreciate them once they start concentrating on making more constructive and comprehensible suggestions, instead of teaching we ladies fashion.... :roll:

Schye

07-01-2004, 01:33 PM

I am sure I will stay in Malaysia even if it will be PAS who is ruling it but I am sure I will form or join another political party to pull them down from the parliament seats: twisted:

We are a democratic country and I think the majority of the people in Kelantan or Terengganu are not against this(or they wont vote for PAS, rite) but the real democracy is not following the majority blindly but the care of the minority by the majority. The act of banning mini skirts, jeans and tight shirt is like banning cars because there are too many road accidents. It is just ridiculous.

However, is it only at the work place or in public too?? (As wwhong stated only at the work place) IF it is only at the workplace, it will be really a meaningless rule...

MarquisX

08-01-2004, 06:30 AM

Hey guys.

i really hate it when some people start calling others dumb, idiot, etc. I have a high expectation on the community members to behave like 'the educated ones' and i don't want any second thought to that. The BA (Barisan Alternatif it is) is an important evidence of a democratic country. Heck, PAS is the symbol that Malaysia is a democratic country. It's the freedom of choosing your own party, darn it!. Remember, PAS was chosen by Kelantanese and Terenganese (hopefully this word exist) to be their government. Though the ban on miniskirt may sound ridiculous especially to those who doesn't wear burqa, it is not the end of the world. The affected people still can appeal for leniency, and i believe that the ban will not alter the fabric of the society.

Granted that politics in Malaysia may sound ridiculous at times, but politics is not made on the black-and-white field. It's what the statesmen compromise in the air-condt room.

topdog

08-01-2004, 07:41 AM

i totally agree that we should refrain from labelling something that we don't agree on dumb, ridiculous, etc. (just to set the record straight, in an earlier post, i said that some of the rules implemented by PAS SEEM ridiculous to me, i didn't say it was ridiculous... i don't really know what's going on in kelantan or t'ganu coz i don't live there, so i can't pass judgement.) something that may make no sense to you could mean a lot to someone else, so let's not criticize unduly.

what i would really like to know is what makes PAS appealing to some Malaysians? clearly, they must enjoy substantial support to be able to govern 2 states.

do people who vote PAS want a government a la saudi arabia, or do they merely want a slightly more islamic form of government? i would appreciate some answers, coz i think i'm not alone in feeling that the idea of a PAS-ruled malaysia isn't very appealing.

soul_out

08-01-2004, 09:26 AM

Guess it's enough to listen to those who disagree with PAS Islamic rules in Kelantan and Terengganu (we can read it in Malaysian newspaper almost everyday... :lol: )

Can anyone tell us what's the main purpose to implement those new Islamic rules and how can it benefit us? Any other example to share that Islamic rules actually can lead our present Malaysian society to a better one?

P/S: Is alcohol an illegal stuff in Kelantan and Terengganu?

Thirdshifter

08-01-2004, 12:36 PM

I apologize for my knee-jerk response. Anyway here's a more thoughtful look at it.

PAS way of interpreting the laws of Islam more radical and mostly on the basis of political gains.

In the Muslim Society of Malaysia, Islam is practiced moderately. Couples getting stoned to death for fornicating is unheard of, Bank Robbers getting their hands choped of would be mind blowing.
Most Muslims in Malaysia would consider this barbaric. Even in the Syariah Court getting a divorce is less complicated then it might have been in a "True-er" Islam version Syaria. The reason i chose to highlight truer is because, Al quran the sole guide to Islam is left to be interpreted on a individual basis.

Some Muslims, particularly the self-educated are more ignorant then Muslims like me would acknowledge. The racial hatred among these Malay-Muslims is unbelievable. Try ask them what you think about a non-Muslim PM?

Most of these group have been brought up to believe 100% what they have been told to believe. Although the Numbers of the more radicals Muslims are getting smaller, the influence they have to Moderates Muslims are still huge. Muslims had been taught that ; each Muslims on this planet is their brother. Islam has preached brotherhood for as long as it existed, With that in mind to be critizing a Political Group with Islam as part of its name is not cool. So most Moderates muslims chose to keep quiet.

Also, They are two Main Islam Groups, The well known Sunnis (Ahli Sunnah, The traditionist) and the Syiah ( The Followers of Muhammad Son in Law, Ali, The 10 Imam). Something like Catholics and Protestant.

Ofcourse for one to exist, One of them must be eliminated. It's a fact that in Malaysia the Syiah Followers are considered "agama sesat" because they don't entirely believe what the Sunnis believe. So after saying that, It made me think - Buddha? Hinduism?, Christianity?, Judaism? and the other non-Sunni believers are considered Agama sesat? because it's actually written black and white that if you practice syiah you'll be sent to a rehab.
Freedom of religion, wasn't that guaranteed in our perlembagaan?

So back to PAS, who i consider to be mostly Sunnis (like myself) had adopted the more radical version of Islam. Total dominance. Everyone that is not a Muslim would pratically be a second class citizen.. somehow similar to UMNOs Malays Special right, where every other ethnicity is second class. Wheter you chose to acknowledge this as a fact or not.. i leave it to you.

The Islamic Laws (the one PAS is promoting) only permits a Muslim to be a leader and only Muslims to hold any public offices. Women could only be a speaker for their on gender.

This Islamic law ofcourse is well influenced by the Ottoman Turks (turki uthmaniyyah) which is by far the saddest period of Islam history. My applogize to the over 1,000,000 armenians that was killed in the 1913 genocide.

The turks,Is the one who started to say that wearing tight cloths are evil. Women who doesnt cover up should be blamed if she was to be raped. It is them who also created most of the barbaric punishment and the ridiculous Islamic Laws. Read up the history about the turks in Malaysian history text book and you'll be surprised on how they were glorified.. The Military with 3,000 ships!.. undefeatable! Islam was the great conquerer!. The Islam Warriors! , Jihad!.. etc Everything for Islam.

When the true fact is, This is the empire who burnt thousands of years worth of Islam philosophy, Science, Art and pretty much the real face of Islam.

Islam as we speak is unfortunatly still recovering from the damage. PAS is nothing more then what turks used to be. Ridiculous. Unrelevant and ofcourse not suitable for a Diverse,Multi-ethnic, full of mak nyah, bapok, gays, transexuals and lesbians Malaysia. Oh forgot the semua yang agama-sesat :)

joseph173

08-01-2004, 04:38 PM

Shouldn't we avoid any further discussion about the political sensitive issues in Malaysia. It's alright for us to rise up our opinion in the forum but I hope it's in the form of mutual understanding and respective

from 1st_Spirit

i'm not sure whether avoiding political issues is the spirit of recom or not, can anyone let me know, thanks!
b4 I get the answer, i would like to express my personal thought:
Don't forget, malaysians were taught to avoid talking about political sensitive issue from the very begining. Including myself was brain washed to be an avoiding person. If i never travel out of malaysia, i would think it is a good idea.

Now the issue comes: mini skirt !!!

dun think PAS will ever take over malaysia if the only topic its leaders are interested in is turning malaysia into a muslim country...
by Cirnelle

i've no comment on the above quote, but i'll pray that our people know what is going on, and why the decision of mini skirt was made, and know what to support or object. otherwise, ridiculous situation could occur. indeed it happened, in Iran, Germany, and Japan. remember we already had so many ridiculous history.

__earth

09-01-2004, 05:36 AM

Before anybody infers anything, I don't support PAS and I am totally for free-will.

Most Muslims in Malaysia would consider this barbaric. Even in the Syariah Court getting a divorce is less complicated then it might have been in a "True-er" Islam version Syaria. The reason i chose to highlight truer is because, Al quran the sole guide to Islam is left to be interpreted on a individual basis. If, "Al quran the sole guide to Islam is left to be interpreted on a individual basis", won't the opposite of "even in the Syariah Court getting a divorce is less complicated then it might have been in a "True-er" Islam version Syaria" would also be true?
Because, if the interpreter is a hardcore fanatic, the rule would be tougher than what is said in the scripture.

Of course for one to exist, One of them must be eliminated. It's a fact that in Malaysia the Syiah Followers are considered "agama sesat" because they don't entirely believe what the Sunnis believe. So after saying that, It made me think - Buddha? Hinduism?, Christianity?, Judaism? and the other non-Sunni believers are considered Agama sesat?It's not just Islam. This characterisctic is wide spread to every other religion. Judaism certainly claimed their followers are the chosen one and all the gentiles (i.e. non-jewish) are inferior. Christianity says the only way to salvation is Christ and there are other religions that say some other thing. Even in China, Falun Gong is considered sesat.
Another proof that this is not exclusively Islam problem is Northern Ireland and Belgium-Holland. In both cases, it was Protestants-Catholics conflicts.

In truth, the whole issue actually depends on the followers, not the religion per se. In addition, Islam certainly doesn't tell its follower to kill all non-Muslim.
In fact, during the Umayyad, the Abbasid and all the other dynasties up to some time in the Ottoman rule, Jews received better treatment by the Muslim than what the Jews received from the European.

Thirdshifter

09-01-2004, 01:10 PM

for the "syaria' part.. thats exactly what i meant. PAS is pushing for a more Harsh version of ISlam which they considere to be the Truer version of Islam. Basically saying Syariah in Malaysia is not correct.

About agama sesat, yes i agree, All religion has this problem. One more reason Malaysia should be secular. Totally seperate Religion and The goverment.

and your last statement about religion should be left alone for individual to practice it. Nobody should force any version of Islam upon anybody. One more reason for secularism.

Even if ottoman treated the jews better, but its a far cry from treating them right. They were second class citizen nonetheless.

However today, Zionist is like the Ottoman for Jews. Well thats another topic. But my piint as i said it on the earlier post. PAS is trying to resemble an Ala-Ottoman Goverment.

Schye

09-01-2004, 04:37 PM

Of course for one to exist, One of them must be eliminated. It's a fact that in Malaysia the Syiah Followers are considered "agama sesat" because they don't entirely believe what the Sunnis believe. So after saying that, It made me think - Buddha? Hinduism?, Christianity?, Judaism? and the other non-Sunni believers are considered Agama sesat?
It's not just Islam. This characterisctic is wide spread to every other religion. Judaism certainly claimed their followers are the chosen one and all the gentiles (i.e. non-jewish) are inferior. Christianity says the only way to salvation is Christ and there are other religions that say some other thing. Even in China, Falun Gong is considered sesat.

Well, although this maybe not related to the topic but i think not EVERY religions claim their followers are inferior - at least i am sure that in Buddhism, everyone is treated the same (of course in reality, it is still hard to be practised but that is the basic teaching in Buddhism).

sanghanuman

10-01-2004, 10:17 AM

I think that the state government in Kelantan (and Trengganu) proposed this policy in conjuction with the increase in crime at present time. Although it is a bizarre policy for most of us, we should give them time to prove their theory(that this might reduce crime on women, esp rape).

I know that we want freedom in living life, but such crime is a very serious one, and if we could do anything to save our sisters, wives and daughters, why not this? One thing, if this policy is not effective in a period of time, maybe they should reconsider.

By dressing moderately, women could escape unwanted attention especially from those who are irresponsible. Why at work? Well, maybe the governments want this to cover most of the time, and involving as many women as possible. To impose this 24/7 is quite unacceptable, so they choose work time, 8-4.

I am just trying to make sense of this. People make decision out of careful consideration, ignited by a problem. While others do excel in solving problems, some decisions are made not very wisely.
So we shall see.

wwhong

10-01-2004, 11:11 AM

do u think by banning miniskirt in workplace will reduce rape case?

sanghanuman

10-01-2004, 12:27 PM

I guess we should not limit ourself to the space of "workplace". When one wears something to workplace, the process of going to work, coming home, by any means of transportation where one will encounter a lot of people when commuting should also be looked at.

10-01-2004, 03:45 PM

hmm... perhaps such issues should be left to the people instead of the government?

perhaps civil pressure would be more effective than iron-fist legislation.

__earth

10-01-2004, 04:01 PM

z, the people is the government.

12-01-2004, 01:07 AM

Seeing this issue, I couldn't help but to shout out, "Media manipulation and control" by the BN government. Virtually everything you see in the media is what's wrong with the opposition, and they never ever publish what's right.

Therefore, the media will always potray PAS as being an crazy party implementing super-fundamentalist Muslim laws. While I'm not a PAS supporter, there are definitely some virtues in PAS never highlighted in the media. For instance, the MB in Kelantan, Nik Aziz, is just staying in a modest house, not lavish mansions as other MBs in other states. Plus, you don't hear of much corruption in Kelantan & Terranganu, and one of the platforms (besides Islam) that PAS is running on is that the present government is too corrupted.

I strongly suggest reading malaysiakini as you will definitely get a more balanced reporting there.

__earth

12-01-2004, 05:38 AM

If you want a more balanced news on Msia, you should read foreign-based publications. You'll see both ends of the spectrum.
And Malaysiakini is not really unbiased though I must say, it doesn't stoop as low as Utusan or Berita Harian.

12-01-2004, 07:58 AM

z, the people is the government.

to what extent? what level of participation?
but i guess it's the people's choice not to meddle with issues that affect the community.

__earth

12-01-2004, 08:25 AM

if you separate the people from the government, that could no longer be called democracy.

12-01-2004, 08:32 AM

very true.

kennytang

29-02-2004, 01:56 AM

if PAS take over m'sia, well, hell is d only word i can say.

kennytang

29-02-2004, 01:56 AM

if PAS take over m'sia, well, hell is d only word i can say.

mystique_jasper

24-03-2004, 06:49 PM

perhaps civil pressure would be more effective than iron-fist legislation.

Yes, of course. As the Chinese saying goes the "best government is the government that govern least"

taufiq

25-03-2004, 03:22 AM

I don't want to speak from PAS view (since i'm not a PAS member),
but as a Muslim,
frankly I don't like to see people wearing miniskirts around me
and when I have to deal with them, it's really hurt me inside.
(but when I have to.. then I have to...)

That's what I feel... so it's my opinion.. we can have different opinions right?

For me, since I learnt to respect other religions, I also would like
my religion to be respected by others as well...
(I know you would say we should respect other religion by not
enacting such rule, but let's make a mutual respect here)

You see, it may not be sinful for other religion to look at people
wearing mini skirts, but it is sinful for a Muslim to do so...
...and it's hard to walk with your eyes closed or blindfolded in order to avoid looking at them...
(Thanks to the existence of solat that minor sins from such actions will be expiated if done without intention)

My comment on the rule itself, I guess PAS should be clear in the
reasons why they try to impose the new rule, and educate the people over there...
there should be ways to tolerate withour affecting any religion practice because that's the way Islam is
(there're differents between Muslim and Islam)

What do people from the state (Kelantan/Teragganu) say? Is there any of you who gave comments here have been living in those states? Maybe there're different opinions for people who have lived there and people who have never lived there

I have a few more questions here:
1. From what/which source did you guys come up with this new rule?
2. Is it a realiable/true source? -can anyone confirm?
3. Does the rule apply to everyone or only Muslims?
4. Do other religions really permits wearing anything (i.e mini skirts) without any restriction?

:wink:

Diesel

25-03-2004, 07:10 AM

i m sure most people read about the PAS government new policy banning females from wearing mini skirts, jeans and tight shirt at work place. for me, this is totally absurd and violates the right of females to dress the way they want.

Hmm, you seem very offended by such ban. Consider this. male students can't wear shorts to class - this violates the rights of males to dress the way they want. But no body says anything about it. Maybe they'll start whining if it's imposed by PAS.

by the way, where did you hear about this? can u give me the link to it?

FiAnS

25-03-2004, 08:36 AM

We should always remember that we are living in a multi-cultural society. So it is expected upon us to 'give and take'. Freedom of speech and expression is a good idea. It is the most fundamental concept of life. But there are restrictions to it. In Malaysia, no one has all the freedom that they want since we have to compromise with other races and religions. In fact, Malaysia is established upon this very concept, "jus soli" if you remember.

I believe that most of you think that by banning miniskirts in Kelantan or Terengganu (not anymore since PAS has lost), PAS is violating the right of women to express themselves. One can argue it from both sides (from the Muslims and human-rights views) and the conclusions arrived by both parties will definitely be different. Indeed most of the recomers, if not all, are viewing it from the latter's side. However, we have to take into account that Islam is the official religion of Malaysia while others are free to perform their beliefs.

In my opinion, PAS's reasoning for this ruling is based on the fact that a woman should cover herself from head to toe with the exception of her face, hands and feet. In fact, by doing so, they might be able to reduce social issues among teenagers especially. Besides that, I don't think we should argue this matter as of now since we have yet to see how PAS will implement this new ruling. Whether it is only pertaining to Muslim women only or to all is not yet known. And correct me if I'm wrong, based on the dicussion topic, only "miniskirts" will be banned; not all kind of skirts. The percentage of Malaysian women who wear skirts, let alone miniskirts, are still low. How many, out of 10 women, will wear skirt frequently. If you wander about the shopping centers in KL, how many women (or girls) would you see be wearing miniskirts?
Having living in the Klang Valley, the majority of them would be seen wearing jeans instead.

Personally, in my opinion, this issue is nothing but a political one. Take in mind that one will do anything to win the seats in the states and Parliament. So there might be chances of bias from all the political groups and mass media as well since it is, as known, controlled by the government. I hope we can look into this issue from a broader point of view. And before I end, I do not have any support for any party and also not yet eligible to vote.

SpRInG

25-03-2004, 08:49 AM

i cannot understand for any reason for any government to band mini-skirt and stuff like that...

anyway, now that BN has taken over Kelantan and Terengganu, perhaps the ban will be lifted?

__earth

25-03-2004, 09:01 AM

In fact, Malaysia is established upon this very concept, "jus soli" if you remember.

i think you misunderstood that concept.

FiAnS

25-03-2004, 09:15 AM

I messed up with the 'jus soli'. My bad...

What I wanted to say is that since independent, our contry has been developing tremendously as a result of our mutual respect among different races and religions.

Sorry for the mistake...

trishotiwuth

25-03-2004, 12:09 PM

Miniskirst in Kelantan?

Gosh people, why would anyone want to wear a miniskirt in Kelantan? There aren't even any big shopping malls, clubs or any other proper place to hang out (unless you take Pantai Cahaya Bulan into account). Plus you'd be getting lots of stares from ppl aroung you.

Of course as a non-muslim I do feel that the ban violates my rights to express myself but then again, sometimes you just need to conform to the society as a sign of respect.

wwhong

25-03-2004, 12:25 PM

this is quite a pretty old issue which is no longer an issue anymore i guess. (at least i never read it on the newspaper again, shoot me if i m wrong)

oh well, i have to admit that i was looking at this issue purely from my point of view which is kinda biased and never think about other factors. my apology. because the first impression i read it was "oh wow, now the PAS government wanna control how women dress?" after the statement that beautiful women should stay at home and don't work, etc. again, i m not sure how true that is but that's what i read from the newspapers.

as long as the kelantanese are fine with that, then it should be ok. i m not staying in kelantan anyway.

budakkerek

25-03-2004, 12:36 PM

exactly, tri!

Yah....think bout it - who'd go to the market to buy fish wearing a miniskirt? :roll:

Well..i think we should look into the reason, why PAS wants (not sure whether it's already enforced/not) such rule.

i think taufiq gave a quite clear explanantion to this. Maybe further reading on the topic, read Harakah, malaysiakini.com or other non-gov medias will give us better understanding of this (they're more open, n not as biased as the other papers).

:idea: IMHO, the normal thing happening in msia is, whatever the other parties say (other than BN), will nvr be published/produced in context. So, i guess that's how ppl get the wrong ideas bout some actions/speeches by the PAS people.

I'm not yet of voting age..so can't really talk bout politics etc..but my friends know which side i'm on :twisted: :wink:

PeiWen

25-03-2004, 05:30 PM

Mmm....can't wear mini skirts in Terengganu and Kelantan? I just wonder how the Chinese population can survive there, I mean compare to Chinese culture and Malay culture, of course Chinese are more open-minded in terms of attires. However, I think as long as the attires are decent, not to expose one's body too much, then it should be fine. It has to depend on the defined length for the mini skirts. Remember during high school, girls' pinafore have to be below knee-length. Anyway, I've never been to Terengganu and Kelantan before, so what are the rules and regulations they'll impose on foreign tourists? Most foreign tourists are even more open-minded in their attire. :roll:

phantom

25-03-2004, 05:53 PM

if PAS take over m'sia, well, hell is d only word i can say.

in their dreams!!

as long as they are ppl in malaysia breathing "malaysia for malaysians" dictum,pas and his avid supporters can only dream about it.

Melo_15

25-03-2004, 09:24 PM

8) well, PAS want to make malaysia as a islamic country too bad... but they 'kutuk' malaysian...u know they criticize non muslims? not only non muslims are angry but muslims themselves...that's y pas lost in their bid during the general election.....
bout mini skirts....erm....i think pas is not wrong to do so, coz islamic laws stated that muslim women must tutup aurat...if u know what i mean..... but the way they wanna tell the public is wrong......i hope they can learn form their loss in the general election.... :wink:

taufiq

25-03-2004, 09:40 PM

Mmm....can't wear mini skirts in Terengganu and Kelantan? I just wonder how the Chinese population can survive there

Dear Pei Wen and others,
That's why i brought up the question about comments from people who have lived in Kelantan/Terengganu

Like some of the new comments, we could seldom see mini skirts in those states,
meaning that if the rule is imposed, it might not affect anyone at all!
That's why Chinese over there can survive.

When I attend school, there are a lot of Chinese friends (female)
who wore baju kurung in school - just like the malay. (And they look beautiful! -don't tell this to my gf! it's old story duhhh)

Anyway, thanks for the responds
and sorry for bringing up the matter again..
I just felt that ReCom is a good place to discuss
and throw out a few comments; and explain some stuff
since people over here are so open minded

cheers ReCom!!!!

8)

Diesel

25-03-2004, 11:50 PM

wait, is the ban only applicable to muslims or everybody? please, i need someone to give me the link to this news.

Diesel

27-03-2004, 08:08 PM

wwhong, tell us from where u heard about this ban.

chiunlin

27-03-2004, 11:01 PM

Since BN has won in Terengganu, I doubt the ban will continue. As for Kelantan, PAS only has a simple majority and the recent election result should have made them realize that such ban is one of the reasons of their loss.

wwhong

27-03-2004, 11:17 PM

wwhong, tell us from where u heard about this ban.

it's an issue few months or maybe half year ago. it was written in all the major newspapers. i read it on the star, sinchew, nanyang. i dun have the link and sorry i m lazy to go search for the link. if u like, do a search on it and i think maybe they still have the articles in their database. dun worry, i din create this out of no where. anyway, with the recent election, i dun think this will still be an issue anymore.

da-hype

28-03-2004, 05:28 AM

wwhong

I really can't imagine living in m'sia if PAS takes over. maybe by that time all females have to stay at home and prohibited from working?

with all due respect... stop acting like an ignorent american. Tell me where in the islamic religion does it say the women must just stay at home and not work or be educated?

Women in islam have more right than guys.. did you know that? The only thing they have to do is cover them self up. thats it.

wwhong

28-03-2004, 06:06 AM

notice that i said if PAS took over, and i said "maybe by that time all females have to stay at home and prohibited from working? ". again, notice that i said MAYBE, i never said for sure by that time this will happen. it's just my imagination based on the situation. i believe we have the freedom to express our thoughts?

the point that i brought up this issue at the first hand was not to debate how just and rightful islamic law is but to voice the opinion that if islamic laws have to be implemented, then please do not include non-muslims.

by no mean did i conclude that islam is oppresing women. I said those things based on the policy PAS did. i never said it's the problem of the islamic law. PAS is not equal to the Islam religion right? correct me if i m wrong.

again, i have to make clear that this is not a discussion about Islamic law.

Diesel

28-03-2004, 06:12 AM

oh, my bad. so did they intend to impose the law on every woman, or just muslim women?

da-hype

28-03-2004, 07:48 AM

wwhong

stop assuming shit.. it's stupid. just cause PAS is trying to apply syariah laws.. does not mean it's trying to change "everything".

Saudi arabia uses the syariah law.. but it does not apply to none muslims / foreigners, and yet women are not allowed to drive in saudi. (culture not religion) so just cause kelantan is trying to apply syariah laws... it's real dumb to assume women will stay home. I don't think they are that stupid to make women stay at home. I'm a muslim and i HATE it when people assume things about islam... i bet you will feel the same way about yours.

theT

28-03-2004, 09:03 AM

....
what's next? ... different shopping complex for guy and girls?.....

sorry out of context.

but i kinda like that idea. just imagine the whole mall for girls. thats awesome. it'll be like a santuary for every female.

sorry. to interrupt the discussion

wwhong

28-03-2004, 09:10 AM

da-hype,

i think u should calm down. i assume thing about PAS NOT Islam. go back and read all my posts, all i talked about is PAS's policy NOT Islam. Islam is good but if it's being used by some people for their own advantage then it's not. if today they can force all the women what to wear, then what's the surprise they will force them what to do later? AGAIN, THEY = PAS here, let me make it clear. i believe u should be able to differentiate between 2 different subjects. it's just logical thinking, just that ok?

IF PAS=Islam, then I apologize. otherwise, u should sit back and stop assuming whatever non-muslim said as an attack on Islam.

this is the last time i m gonna say it, i do not intend to bring up any religion issue here. if u insist on saying that, it's your freedom. peace.

Diesel

28-03-2004, 09:41 AM

answer me question hong.

littlebigone

28-03-2004, 02:12 PM

da-hype

28-03-2004, 02:20 PM

If memory serves me right, it's for all. I also think I read somewhere that Muslim women in Kelantan ahve to wear headscarves.

I think it's a funny rule and so far the only logical thing that I've heard to support the ruling is that it may prevent rape cases from happening. But I feel taht if you were going to put the effort into enforcing a new law like that, you might as well have channeled the funds into better security measures in the state.

Maybe it's not so much of a big deal in Kelantan and Terengganu as people are already doing that.

What's so funny about that? If there were two girls. 1 in underwear and the other covered up with tudung and a baju kurung... which one will temp you do thing bad thoughts or even rape?

note: in the teachings of moses, jesus and muhammad, girls are seposed to cover up.

wwhong

28-03-2004, 03:17 PM

i think what littlebigone was trying to say is that guy's desire is the main culprit in rape case.

ElansarGelmir

28-03-2004, 03:59 PM

Yeah, women should dress decently wherever they go, but that doesn't mean that they are wrong if they are raped just because they do not cover up. I think they have their right to dress as well too, rite? It's the rapists' fault that they can't have respect for women and start acting like a senseless animal. Even if i see a woman in an underwear, i'll just pass it off as she's not sane enough, but that doesn't mean that she deserves to be raped. Who wants to rape any girls who do not dress undecently?

If PAS has enough sense, maybe they will realize that it's the rapists who need to be dealt with, not the victims... Their way of approach is somewhat like encourage rapist to feast on victims who do not dress up properly in lieu of instilling awareness among their people how wrong it is to rape. The only way that women are prevented by being raped is to forced them to wrap themselves from head to toe, allowing a small opening on the head enough for visual and breathing purposes.

in the teachings of moses, jesus and muhammad, girls are seposed to cover up.

All i know is that women are supposed to cover their heads during worship, that's all...

which one will temp you do thing bad thoughts or even rape?

If one has strong faith in his or her religion, he or she will dismiss this thoughts, or perhaps, won't even think of them.

da hype, i'm not trying spark any heated arguments here, but i am just giving the penny of my thoughts. If you want to refute it, feel free to do so, but please do it in a calm manner.

Thirdshifter

28-03-2004, 05:03 PM

I would like to see/hear a speech of PAS leader claiming that It is the girls fault because she didn't cover up according to Islam.

I think it is UMNO leaders that has been quoted, Quotating a PAS leader saying somehting to that effect.

Also, in Islam it is a requirement for every Muslim Females to cover their head, Matter of fact to cover the entire Body Expect the face and the Wrist.

What PAS did was ofcourse rightful in an Islamic term. So basically Anybody that are afraid of these Law are basically saying they do not believe what the Quran said.

In a religion perspective, attacking the Muslim Female code dress is an attack on the Quran itself.

Allah S.W.T. telah berfirman dalam Surah Al-Ahzab ayat 59:

"Wahai Nabi, suruhlah isteri-isterimu, anak-anak perempuanmu, dan perempuan-perempuan yang beriman, supaya melabuhkan pakaiannya bagi menutup seluruh tubuhnya (semasa mereka keluar); cara yang demikian lebih sesuai untuk mereka dikenal (sebagai perempuan yang baik-baik) maka dengan itu mereka tidak diganggu. Dan (ingatlah) Allah adalah Maha Pengampun lagi Maha Mengasihani."

Read the whole thing here http://www.jais.net.my

In a democracy society, we Can chose what we want and the majority of Muslims in Malaysia had strongly agreed that the Quran does not apply to them.

Quran, the Base of Islam is no longer followed by many Muslims in Malaysia.

So when you have you people who want to follow the Quran in Malaysia, they are branded as Old-fashioned. Kolot, Etc.

Some non Muslims went as far as saying "if we became an Islamic state, we will be back to the Muhammad era!!" Which is in my opinion very offensive to a lot of Muslims. The Muhammad era is also known as the Era of "englightment"

I wonder if its actually the fear of Islam and not PAS.

here's a quote from our beloved Dr Mahathir (in)famous speech at the 2003 OIC Summit ( http://www.oicsummit2003.com/oicsummit/speechr.php?id=35&cat=BI )

13. But this is not all that we ignore about the teachings of Islam. We are enjoined to Read, Iqraq i.e. to acquire knowledge. The early Muslims took this to mean translating and studying the works of the Greeks and other scholars before Islam. And these Muslim scholars added to the body of knowledge through their own studies.

14. The early Muslims produced great mathematicians and scientists, scholars, physicians and astronomers etc. and they excelled in all the fields of knowledge of their times, besides studying and practising their own religion of Islam. As a result the Muslims were able to develop and extract wealth from their lands and through their world trade, able to strengthen their defences, protect their people and give them the Islamic way of life, Addin, as prescribed by Islam. At the time the Europeans of the Middle Ages were still superstitious and backward, the enlightened Muslims had already built a great Muslim civilisation, respected and powerful, more than able to compete with the rest of the world and able to protect the ummah from foreign aggression. The Europeans had to kneel at the feet of Muslim scholars in order to access their own scholastic heritage.

15. The Muslims were lead by great leaders like Abdul Rahman III, AI-Mansur, Salah El Din AI Ayubi and others who took to the battlefields at the head of their forces to protect Muslim land and the ummah.

16. But halfway through the building of the great Islamic civilisation came new interpreters of Islam who taught that acquisition of knowledge by Muslims meant only the study of Islamic theology. The study of science, medicine etc. was discouraged.

17. Intellectually the Muslims began to regress. With intellectual regression the great Muslim civilisation began to falter and wither. But for the emergence of the Ottoman warriors, Muslim civilisation would have disappeared with the fall of Granada in 1492.

18. The early successes of the Ottomans were not accompanied by an intellectual renaissance. Instead they became more and more preoccupied with minor issues such as whether tight trousers and peak caps were Islamic, whether printing machines should be allowed or electricity used to light mosques. The Industrial Revolution was totally missed by the Muslims. And the regression continued until the British and French instigated rebellion against Turkish rule brought about the downfall of the Ottomans, the last Muslim world power and replaced it with European colonies and not independent states as promised. It was only after World War II that these colonies became independent.

masterof_none

28-03-2004, 06:08 PM

There are a lot of intepretation about Islam. Although quoting from Al-Quran is a good start, but we can't simply deduced the meaning of it, based on our understanding.
I remember learning Al-Quran and Sunnah when I was in F5 and I found that there are a a branch of study called Ulum-Quran, which studies the meaning (and intepratation) of the Quran. A huge study indeed.

I'm not in the best position to declare anything about the meaning in the Quran, and I prefer to refer back to Ustaz, that knows better.
However, we Malaysians should not fear about Islam.

The best thing is, try to reach some kind of understanding.
There are a lot of things in Islam itself that can't simply be resolved.

For example, why Islam say women must cover their heads.
and the answer is , the Quran says so.
YOu might argue that this is a slippery slope argument , etc..
But that's the conclusion in Islam.
You also might say that some Ulama/Ustaz may say (if any) that not covering their head is fine, as long as they behave.
I just brought some simple example on different intepretation (called 'khilaf' ) in Islam.
That's why, when debating about Islamic laws, all these must be taken care of.. which opinion is considered weak, which opinion is considered strong, and which one that has been agreed (called 'jumhur ulama').

And, I invite all Recomers to at least ask questions, if you guys are unsure about these things.. the more research we do, the more we exchange ideas/opinions, the more we understand each other.

regarding PAS= Islam, the best way to understand this is,
PAS is a political party, and Islam is a religion, so , obviously, they're not the same.
the people who are not in this position might counter my argument,stating about the PAS objective,
and the BN might say that they're more Islamic and more Progressive then PAS. but , I'm not very interested in knowing how Islam they are,because for me, both party members are Muslims, why fighting?
I'm more interested on how we can work together to create a better tomorrow, bearing in mind that we have a lot of other races with different religions that we must work together.

Diesel

28-03-2004, 07:31 PM

there are things that you can take word by word from the Koran, and there are thigns that requires interpretation, and that's why sunnah is there.
about muslim women covering their body, i believe that God made it very clear in the Koran. thus it should be taken as it is stated.

yes, some ulama argues that women does not need to cover their hair. Astora Jabat, an utusan religious columnist once wrote about that. i dont remember exactly what he argued, but one thing i remember is that he says it's ok for women not to cover their hair, since some ulama's wives dont do so. you can tell that that's a very bad interpretation right?

Yes, PAS is not Islam, PAS is simply Islamic. voting for PAS doesnt ensure one's place in heaven, it takes more than that. but what you choose i believe should not under any circumstances violates the teachings of your religion. because if you choose your religion to be badly practised, you have the share of the sin since you alllow it to happen.

Thirdshifter

29-03-2004, 12:28 AM

Yes, PAS is not Islam, PAS is simply Islamic. voting for PAS doesnt ensure one's place in heaven, it takes more than that. but what you choose i believe should not under any circumstances violates the teachings of your religion. because if you choose your religion to be badly practised, you have the share of the sin since you alllow it to happen.

I don't think PAS had guaranteed any of its voter heaven nor 7 virgins. Again it is UMNO that has being quoting PAS leaders.

Base on PAS logic, A True Muslim would atleast dress up to Islam standards. In todays society having a dress code is already considered Extreme. Most of the reason people have about PAS is not logic. MOst of the excuses given is practically rejecting the Quran, not PAS.

In the Quran, it has asked that a nation be ruled with Islam as its root. In the Quran it already specified a set of basic Law which must be followed by Muslims and non Muslims regardless of what year it is. One of them is Dressing up.

PAS was just simply being a true conservative.

True conservetive is someone who strictly follow guidelines. Not making one up to suit their own Agenda.