Education Business

[Gula2tingtong]

Hi guys, entepreneurs, businessman/women,

I am planning to start business recruiting student from abroad to study in Malaysia. Any suggestion people?

Thanks

[balderdash]

Give 'em scholarships. And try to convince them that Malaysia will value foreign talents and choose them over locals. Like what a certain neighbouring country is doing. Just don't do the publicity locally.

[crosshatched]

Enhance the current education system. Perhaps, dismiss the local's and start to practise other's international education system and policy. Ensure it's recognized internationally and locally. Bah~

Import foreign lecturers. Be diverse. Import at least one from each different countries. We have foreigners studying here, at least someone from their home country can ease them out.

Hemm..thinking.. :idea:

[shangzheng]

Are there any further infomation on this ? or it is just your idea ?

How to implement ? I'm listening to you.


Hi guys, entepreneurs, businessman/women,

I am planning to start business recruiting student from abroad to study in Malaysia. Any suggestion people?

Thanks

[Maxforce]

Advertise!
Marketing!
Roadshows!
Help get them a job!
Strategic Alliance!
Recogniition approval from their respective countries!

[Wedko]

Hi there

I am planning to do the opposite, doing it in the UK.

Care to talk further?

[Maxforce]

Same thing lah...
main thing is competitive advantage or what ppl all called product differentiation... you want detailed elaboration ka???

[Wedko]

Please tell me more about how to make it happens.

It seems like you know a lot about this business, do you have any experience that you could share?

[bingzhang]

Based on my observation and informal experience:

Education Business in Malaysia:
I think the attraction of Malaysia colleges (I assume/suppose that foreign students are not attracted to our local universities and also the local universities do welcome them) to the foreigners are follows:

1) Students can get credit transfer to universities in oversea such US, Aus, and UK.

2) Tuition fees and living expenses in Malaysia are slightly cheaper compared to oversea.

3) Malaysia is close to all these Asia countries like China, HK, Indonesia and etc.

4) Malaysia is considered stable in both politic and economic, people from Indonesia really consider this point and emphasize it.

5) Medium of language of Malaysia colleges is English.

Based on my personal observation, I notice that lots of students from China, Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodian (surprise?), Nepal, and even HK (another big surprise?) have come to Malaysia to study in the college. However, they would usually study the diploma only and then they will GET THEIR DEGREE IN OVERSEA UNIVERSITIES. So, Malaysia colleges are just like a stepping stone to getting the degree in oversea universities.

So, my strategies of running this business would be as follows:

1) Visa. People from China, Indonesia or Nepal would always have difficulties to get a visa coming to Malaysia and oversea. So, you should have people who are familliar with this matter to help the students getting visa for them. That's one of the main reason why they would choose your service.

2) Align with the local colleges and make sure the course they provide are quality. Or at least, make sure after studying the course in local college would safely guarantee them a place and good credit transfer to oversea universities in oversea. I believe this is important in long term as it helps to improve your reputation.

3) Accomodation service is also another crucial factor of your business. These students are around 17 to 20 in their age and this is the first time (most of them, ok?) they left home and coming to another country to pursue their study by themselves. They would really appreciate if you can at least provide them some information finding accomodations or at least finding them accommodation near to their college.

4) Have a negotiation and get a good deal with the college for the charges of introducing students to their college. I know that universities or colleges in Australia pay 5 to 15% out of the 1 semester tuition to the agents. And if you are a startup business without any reputation, they would usually start paying only 5% to the agent. So, maintain good relationship with the local colleges and build up your reputation is the most important point coz this is where the part only u making money.

5) Some extra services you might want to consider would be: The final goal of some students to study in oversea (again, I meant UK, Aus or US, ok?) is not only to get a degree but also to get permanent residency and a good paid job in these countries. So, you might want to have someone who is able to provide opinions to students how to get their permanent residency in oversea countries by CAREFULLY PLANNING THEIR STUDIES IN BOTH LOCAL COLLEGES AND OVERSEA UNIVERSITIES.

Education business in UK:
I would consider the strategies of running education business in UK is basically the same except students dont consider UK as the stepping stone of getting their degrees. So, you really have to work hard on the quality of the services then.

Finally, check out www.aused.com.au and take them as a good example. They are doing really well in this business. Dude, dont forget to compare their serives with IDP and you will see the differences.

Stop here first. Will post more if coming out some new ideas. ^_^ Good luck

[Wedko]

Really appreciate your comments.

Please keep on posting your great ideas.

Will give you a big treat when you are in London.

[Maxforce]

bingzhang, very entertaining reading your insights! I agree wholeheartedly with you! Great observations, no flaw there!
I am one lazy bastard... so here is what i ve got...
Say you want to do the opposite - you setup in UK, you want to get foreign students to go to UK.

Main question: WHY do they want to travel thousands of miles to an unknown college?

Answer from my lazy narrow point of view:
Maybe they dont get to join other more reputable college.
Maybe they just wanna travel and see the world (supposedly more experience and more mature wan woh - crap but can be a form of persuasion)
Maybe ... why ar?

Here s how to give them reason:
1. Roadshow
Now, roadshow is nuttin new. But use it wisely, you would have utilised every cent you spend. Poorly done, totally waste of money! (E.g. Kolej Aman in the tradeshow)
How to make a road show successful
1. Great team members - enthusiatic, very outgoing, persuasive, product knowledge, cost of living/UK living knowledge, bla bla bla - think fo student point of view, you ll get what I mean...
2. Pictures, video, visuals - Picture says a thousand word. Get those images of your colleges, where you re located, surrounding areas, even put some lousy UK scenary (but not too much - many just the stupid clock) This will further entice the prospective students to join.
3. Free explanation, by group (if you rent enuf space) obligation free (but put in some more enticing stuff and persuasion)
4. After all the crap above, now we move to the real stuff - now that ppl start to listen, oni talk abt what the course is for, what they will become, what is the industry pay, how many get employed in UK (or just tell them a big number has been !!! Just dont blatantly give a number or say they were from your college - technically you didnt lie)
5. If you have done strategic alliance with local college here, even better! Promote through them as well. Make sure they are reputable or at least of some quality... (Their image will reflect on you!!!)
6. When you have enuff students later help them get job lah, go have some lousy recruitment drive, invite the recruitment consultant, they sure wanna come wan - they no need to pay you, or vice versa oso, just mutual benefit!!!
7. RECOGNITION - very important, just dont do what a lot of lousy college is doing in msia, they send ppl (students) to US to study for accounting - in the end, not recognised here cos different, VERY different standard of accounting - we use Profit Before Tax, they use Earnings Before Interest, Tax, Depreciation and Amortisation (EBITDA) - totally a rip off !!! This will impact on long term image and also might have legal liability, so watch out for that!!!

DISCLAIMER
Maxforce is not in the education industry, neither is he a marketer, he is an accountant by profession who claims that he has business sense from all the crappy books and pppl he talk to, especially from the marketing side... Also, he is a real lazy bum who can type 45ppm but still lazy to type...

Next round I elaborate more... since this is free consultation :P

[koopai]

JPA, Telekom and Petronas use SFERE www.sfere.fr , a french education ressources service similar to your business idea to get us here(JPA-France students). Just want to encourage you guys by saying that JPA spend 12 million euros for 12 years.. I'm sure it is a lucrative business...

:lol:

[bingzhang]

Something I forgot to mention on last post.

If you pay notice on the current trends of students going to Malaysia or other places for studies, you might notice that lots of students no longer only go abroad for their degrees. The trend is changing. The current trend is, the earlier is sending the kids studying abroad, the better it is. So, lots of students start their oversea studies life since secondary school. So, I believe it is important to pay attention to these group of students. But it might have different effects in Malaysia and UK.

Malaysia case:
As far as we know (my impression of 3 years ago, lol), tuition fee of secondary education in Malaysia has never been expensive even you go to chinese school. (Sorry, I'm not sure about International schools in Malaysia.) So, you won't be able to make any profit by sending students to secondary school. However, education business in Malaysia should not ignore these group of people because the are the people will definitely go to the local colleges. And as far as I understand, the number of this group of people is increasing provided our education minister will not make any stupid in sudden. LOL. Anyway, I believe you should start approach to them or at least let them know how you can help them in selecting a right college and how you can help them in planning their studies especially how you can help to ensure a place in oversea universities. This group of people is important because the posibility for them going to local colleges after graduating from our schools is nearly 100%. Secondly, physically (is it the right spelling?LOL) they are in Malaysia which means they are close to you and that also mean it is easier for you to approach to them and talk to them which makes them feel for secured.

My opinions of having your branch in Malaysia but try to recruit students who are physically in their home countries would not be very optimistic. Because, by only dealing with each other through phones, email and other communication tools could never give the 100% secure feeling to the students and their parents that you could really help them in this matter. So, may be you should consider set up branches in their home countries when your business grow bigger. At least, physically you are more close to them.

UK Case, to Wedko:
Same situation and the same trend apply to the students studying in UK. However, it is definitely a big plus for you as we know studying at secondary school in oversea could cost almost the same amount of uni fee. I believe these schools are also more willing to pay agent fees to you compared to those in Malaysia. So, you might want to consider your market is NOT only in students studying universities in UK but also those who will pursue their studies in secondary schools as well. Well, this is good another making money machine. Consider of helping them to find homestay coz they need it since they are younger than 18. The parents will appreciate and introduce kids of their family and friend to ya.

Lastly, just pay attention to these students already studying secondary or high school there like what I described above. Promote your services to them when they are still in the schools but only wait until they finish the schools. Most students don't wait to consider or apply uni until they finish high school.

Lastly, there is a way I found AusEd is doing so well in recruiting students studying in Aus uni is:
Hold a career fair/expo or whatever you like to call.
Gather all the uni/collges that you are align with to attend the fair.
Promote this fair to the students and make them come to the fair.
And the crucial point is, they can get admision to the universities they wanted by applying straight away to the uni/college representatives who attended the fair. These rep also have the right to grant ther admission to the students who pass admision requirement.
Waive the application fees if they apply during the fair.

This is a win-win situation to both uni and students as uni get more students (make more money) and students can get admision to the university they wanted quicker.

Anyway, I would love to hear from the comments from you guys as well. Please share with me.

[Wedko]

Do you have any ideas how can I approach the universities?

What do I have to do to get them agree to sign the contract with me?

Apart from thinking about earning money, I would also like to offer service that I couldn't get when I came to the UK five years ago. It was quite difficult for me as there was no help available eventhough I applied through an agent.

But now, with my experience of studying in the foreign land as well as working in one of the biggest financial centres in the world, I just want to offer help to the students and help them choose the right career and get the right jobs.

I will set up an office in London as well as in Malaysia.

My plan is to have one office in KL, Penang and somewhere else ... no contact at the moment.

In this way, I can provide 24 hours service to the students.

What is the hottest choice of course at the moment in Malaysia?

I left Malaysia five years ago, I guess I may have lost touch with what's happening in Malaysia now.

[Maxforce]

Just as I thought and feared... you re not from the industry...
Sigh... In office, I have ppl who feared the unknown, even if it brings benefits, etc.
While others are at the extreme end...
Whatever happened to moderation???
Wedko, I have only one thing to say,
Better not. Better not do something which you have no prior experience when the risk is so high... Prudence Concept remember? Alternatively, I can understand the burning desire of the entrepreneurship within... I can understand it very well... so here is my suggestion: - start an online college - minimal risk (in terms of capital), minimal management (only website management - yeah, get a partner who is really skilled in the section.), and since you can provide 24 hours support....
over and out!

[Wedko]

Thanks for the advice. I'll bear this in mind.

I may have to look for a business partner who has experience in this field.

How is the prospect for online college in Malaysia?

Online college is my other project in the plan but not so soon as I think this is a big project and I don't want to provide bad products which will affect my users.

What are your thoughts on this business?

What are the essentials factors to consider?

[Maxforce]

Glad you re taking it well...
(I may be an ass at times!!! haha)

Prospect of online in Malaysia?
Let s put it this way. It is in the INTRODUCTION stage as in the BCG Model. So, the cons - not much business at the moment. Many ppl basically feared paying online in Malaysia. Also the broadband penetration in Msia is basically horrible. Now, having said that, there is also not much competition, almost none. So, go figure!
If you can give the customers the confidence, then you're the next self made millionaire!!! So go figure!!!

Yeah credibility is like virginity, once you lose it, you can never get it back. (originally it was trust, but I adapted it to suit my arguement/agreement with you)

Education business is growing in Malaysia. This is due to several factors, but mainly,
1. Importance of it, or more like importance of it when getting a job.
2. Recession in Malaysia is not over yet and basically the Middle Class people like me, doesnt have very much money to spend. So to send children overseas and spend 3-10 times more? So if you want to target this market, make sure your marketing is VERY focused. Dont waste any time nor penny on people like me!!! Haha
3. Kiasu-ism - Grab a stone throw it down the street. Chances are, you 'll hit a graduate!

Main thing to consider basically is how to provide value which your competitor could not. Product Differentiation. But main thing, I ll say, since you have yet to start your business, you have the opportunity to begin it the right way from the start. BUSINESS PROCESS REENGINEERING concept from the CUSTOMER POINT OF VIEW...

All the best mate!

[lotus]

Hi guys, entepreneurs, businessman/women,

I am planning to start business recruiting student from abroad to study in Malaysia. Any suggestion people?

Thanks
How about modelling it after Idp Australia though it is/claims to be a non-profit organisation?
--"entepreneurs, businessman/women"
I'm not one of the above but as a student and user of its service I observe that Idp is one of those education businesses providing an excellent service and doing very well. If your education/recruitment business can be built to such a reputable level, without doubt it is a success. :)

[Maxforce]

Good idea!
A good idea is a goos idea, whether you re an entrepreneur/businessman/woman or not... :D
I think it is also worth underlining that IDP is a non profit organisation which I think probably receive funding through the Australian Govt. So in terms of applying in business, model their service and their vision, not necessarily their way of spending money :lol:

[Wedko]

From my experience, these guys are working on behalf of all the universities in Australia.

What they are doing is to paint the nicest picture as possible to all the students who want to study there.

There will be no further support once you are there or enrolled with the University.


What I am trying to provide is taking from the perspective of students, not universities eventhough I will be paid by them.

I am using my past experience to fill the gap in this market.

How many of the agents or people from Australia have had studied and work in overseas?

[Maxforce]

Of course you are right, bro, but is that not what we call marketing? :roll: :roll:

[Wedko]

Marketing is the most powerful tool in the business world.

You can't growth your business without a proper marketing plan.

Do you think we have any marketing expert here?

[Maxforce]

I believe you are talking to an apprentice of a master marketing now :P :P :D :P
I once had the opportunity to learn from a great man - he was a GM of a product line (back then, we call it SBU) of an MNC. Guess what, previously he was the Financial Analyst there! He singlehandedly turnaround the division from a huge loss position to a profit making division, mainly focusing on increasing market share and sales.
When I join the company, he was still turning the company around. He taught me marketing, and to return his favor, I control and manage his costs. What a great team we were then!!! Hehe, feeling nostalgic!
Anyway, useful stuff - www.platinax.co.uk great website with lots of resources on online marketing and a lot of master marketers there. Best part - they are based in UK as well!!! Well, my apprenticeship continues....

[Wedko]

I don't mind to be your apprentice as long as your skill is still working, Master!

Hope you are not younger than me.

[ck]

Wedko,

To approach universities, just send an e-mail to their student association or the Coordinator of the faculty. Now you would ask, how would I get their e-mail address or position... well this is simple, just check out the university websites. Most of it should have a list of staff and faculty members.
I have done this to recruit graduating students from overseas. Therefore it's worth while to try.

The only problem you need to worry is whether the uni. would let you do the recruitment for them. My reasoning is simple, though it seems like a win win situation, but would you give someone the permission to use your name to recruit when you are not sure whether the person is really recruiting or using it for other purpose. (E.g. instead of studying, they could be "plane jumping" :lol: )

I am not sure whether this work, maybe Maxforce "the guru" can analyse on this:
Since you are setting up office in M'sia, you might as well start off with local colleges. Recruiting for these colleges. If you have some reputation from these colleges, when you start approaching the uni., you can give some referees from the local college ( not those small one, but big player like Sunway or Taylor College).
You can also consider recruiting Foreign students from China, Vietnam and Indonesia on behalf of this colleges.

Once you have some rapport build up, I think the uni's would be more than happy to engage your service.

However, this is my startegy only lar... "Max - how much does this worth?"

Wish you all the best for your business setup.
:o

[Wedko]

What kind of experience do you have?

How is/was the business?

By the way, are there still many students who want to study in the UK?

[ck]

My experience is in executive search aka. Head hunter.

To be frank, I am not sure whether there are still students are going abroad to study. But for me, if I were to have kids, unless they are doing special (like doctors or engineer), I will consider sending them overseas. If you are talking about Business or Accountancy programme, my choice would be local as we have many in house programme from Aust. university.

Being in the recruitment area, it really does not matter much when you are a local or foreign graduate. What companies look for in graduates is the confidence when they speak and the maturity of handling difficult scenario.

Then again, this is just me. Others may think differently.

As Maxforce has mentioned, understand what is your target market and plan on how you should be running the programme and etc. I bet you as an accountant are even better than me in figuring out the ROI.

:lol:

[Maxforce]

Hey, I can see two smug faces!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
hmm, I am an apprentice. Still am. Maybe one day when we eventually meet, I could introduce to you guys my "sifu". Much to learn I have actually. But still I dont know what is humility!!! (one of my weaknesses)

Good idea ck! However, one point of concern is also - wedko's credibility. No offense mate, but assuming you have yet to start your college, that would mean zero credibility right? Now assuming you have just started, and you approach Sunway through cold calls, what are the chances of them agreeing? (OK maybe you can relate to this, assuming your company wants to outsource its credit control function, would you 1) outsource to a newly setup or, 2) outsource to D&B or other reputable companies?)

Alternatively, you might think, since the big players would not agree, why not the small player? Now, another problem - what sort of quality are you taking in then?

I think the difficulty in us to try to help is that we could not see what you want to do, your vision. Maybe if you could describe it more, we could be more helpful even? :P :P :P

[Wedko]

My vision is simple

Building the platform for Malaysians to learn how to compete at the world standard and learn from the world leaders.

whatever things I do, I'll never think that I am a Malaysian or this course is for Malaysians only, therefore I have to reduce the standard or the passing mark.

God is fair, everyone has the same brain, everybody can be successful at the top in this world.

[Maxforce]

Wedko, you can be very romantic at times...
Okay, heres my questions:
1. What kind of platform?
2. What is the benchmark for world standards?
3. Which world leaders will the student learn from?
4. What the heck does Building the platform for Malaysians to learn how to compete at the world standard and learn from the world leaders means? Nice words, nice sounding phrase altogether but after reading 3 times, still doesnt make much sense to me!
5. I wont go to standards until I know how the student will be taught, actually. If your program is damn good, you should have every confidence that lowering the passing standard is the last resort.

[Wedko]

1. What kind of platform?

Platform is a medium where two needs can be met, it could be done through website or some place like Stock exchange.

KLSE is a platform for people to buy and sell shares.

2. What is the benchmark for world standards?

Aim for the top 10 percent - having said that it is a rather gigantic task to set up the benchmark.

For example, I am aiming to be the top 100 most influential man in the world.

3. Which world leaders will the student learn from?
For example, if someone wants to build a search engine in the Malaysia, then he/she will aim to be as good as 'google' or 'yahoo'.

Bill Gates

'Thinking globally, act locally'

4. What the heck does Building the platform for Malaysians to learn how to compete at the world standard and learn from the world leaders means? Nice words, nice sounding phrase altogether but after reading 3 times, still doesnt make much sense to me!

Malaysian + my platform = world standard = compete with the best = conquer the world

My platform = power, money, networking & wisdom

[bingzhang]

I am not sure whether am I still with Wedko. Kinda confused for last few post from him and others about the original idea of the thread and the business.

However, base on what I still understand about Wedko's idea, I believe it works as I have seen the real examples by myself in Australia. I definitely hope that Wedko's idea can bring more to the students and his own business as he does bring the differences to the current education business industry. And this different is helping the students to adjust themself to study and live well after landing a place in oversea uni as well as securing a job in oversea. I believe it's great idea but also wonder has Wedko found the solution to keep in contact with the students during the their phases of "before started studying", "during studying" and "finished studying and graduated from uni".

Experiences told me that people only come to you when they need your helps and services. Thus, it is no doubt that they will come for your (Wedko) services when they are trying to land a place in their favourite uni since this should be ur core function of the business. However, how would you maintain your relationships with these students after they started their uni and even after graduated? Even after they graduate and started and hoped to get a job in oversea, why should they choose you instead of thousand of companies outthere whose core business are doing recruitment? So, I think these are the hardest parts of your business if you tried to focus on them as well.

But still, I fully agree with your ideas that the services of the education business shouldn't end when the students have successfully landed a place in the uni but it should continue help them to adjust themselves to the different culture and living well such as linking them with the Malaysian associations in oversea.

To my experience, IDP was the model of the education businesses in Australia. But IDP is certainly not the best in the industry providing the services. At least, I didn't have great experiece with the IDP from KL. So, modelling IDP is great, but it should be the basic model of your business while your original ideas bring more to the students. The universities wouldn't mind whether you are working on behalf of students or universities as long as you do not lower the standard of the entry to the university. Anyway, I do not think that you have the ability to influnce this standard except the universities themselve when they are too eager to make money from oversea students.

Approaching to the universities is hard for the start up business but as long as you guarantee your services and prove your reputation, things will get easier. You should have no problem to make universities to believe what you are doing is benefiting them since you are not the first one to do this type of the business.
- try speaking to the student centres
- international students services provider
- department of student admission
- people who in charge for international admission AND credit transfer in different faculties

By the way, my sence is why do you bother to start your business in both UK and Malaysia at the same time? Your "customers" are not only from Malaysia but around the world. Also, since you are a start up business, how would you have the resources and PEOPLE to be allocated to both offices? My own opinion would be starting in UK to test and see the market as well as understanding more about this industry before you go further. Plus, students do not only get your services when they wanted to get into the university for the FIRST time and at their home country. You should expect that your business also depends on the students who fail to follow the academic standard of their university (such as failing the exam and doing badly in highly reputation university). These students will then expect to change the university or even courses to other university (lower standard or reputation university) so that they can just pass the exam and finish the uni. Thus, they will come for your advices and services. Dude, this is happenning and why the education business's making big profits.

Lastly, I just think that education business in UK might not be as easy to run as in Aus due to the entry requirement there is harder. Often, high reputation universities would require students to sit for the test to gain admission to the related university. This would mean that they prefer recruiting the students by themselves rather than depending on your services as they have more control of the quality of the students. However, your market is big but not only depending on these few high repuration university. So, go on and strike to make it happen. All the best, Wedko.

[ck]

Focus = Planning

Bingzhang has got a point there. And I too agreed with him that I am totally lost on Wedko last posting.

My comment: If you got a good partner that has plenty of experience and connections with universities, it will be a headstart for you.

Money without experience = high failure rate.
(Know your enemy, know thy self and you would at least guarantee some success...) "Modification from Sun Tzu" :lol:

Go into planning mode and set out reasonable targets that you want to achieve. Do a swot analysis (standard that I learn from Uni.) on your plan. That itself would give some directions to you.[/b]

[nick_khaw]

Am I right in thinking that ck, Wedko and MaxForce are all working now? I hope you guys don't do this during your office hours. Lol.

Anyway, not knowing humility is not a bad thing. Confidence is always better than humility.

Personally, I don't think that UK and Aus universities are the ideal platform to start from. Most of the universities there are established enough and they don't have to pay an additional cost for recruitment services or whatever. SEA colleges and universities would be a platfrom for recruitment. They need all the 'marketing' and 'advertizing' that they can get.

And yeah, I don't quite see the point Wedko is trying to hit in his most recent post. His platform is certainly an ideal one but not very realistic especially when you're starting out. You can have networking, money and wisdom when you start out, but certainly your market power won't be that great.

[Wedko]

That's what we call 'VISION'

As long as I can finish my job and perform well in the quality of my work, my boss doesn't care what I am doing during the work.
My performance is based on result not how much time I work.

We are not a factory worker where we have to work from 9-5.

[Schye]

Just found this thread. Hmm...

Vision is not enough without Mission.
As others has stated before, how do we compete with those gigantic companies which is already well established?
Is your services being needed?
What is your 4P's and who are your competitors? Do you stand a chance again others?
and err...Are you trying to startup a NPO or a business? (because from your post, I cant get the picture)

NICH is the key word. Research, study and try to approach universities which seems desperately need students. I believe you will get more information that way ... AND as Max stated before, the first step to success do not fail. Make sure you know what you are going into and have a concrete plan step by step.

By the way, I am participating a business plan "contest" in Japan next week with some others Japanese friends. Just for fun though. If you are looking for partners in Japan, where the universities are desperately looking for students becuase or the drop of birth rate since 90's, PM me.

* 2 papers tomorrow... argh

[Maxforce]

hmm, looks like I have missed quite a bit...
all in a matter of 24 hours!!!
Vision, Mission, Long term goal, short term goal, I am sure our accountant friend here is very familiar with it.
What i am not comfortable besides the fact that Wedko is not from the industry himself is that his vision is blurry. Yeah it is a good vision, yes. But Wedko bro, unless you can describe it in such a way that everybody understands, it gives me an impression that you only see one part of the picture. E.g. I have a VERY clear vision on how to say, use the online trading of auto parts and target Msia. I know exactly what is required because of my clear vision. And I know exactly how to do it and what is required to do it... Only that at this moment, I do not do it because I have not met with the requirements needed.

Here is an expansion of my original question:

1. What kind of platform?

Platform is a medium where two needs can be met, it could be done through website or some place like Stock exchange.

KLSE is a platform for people to buy and sell shares.

- What platform are you going to build? Have you selected website as your platform? If so, SEO is definitely VERY crucial. Is it going to be done through Physical Establishment?

2. What is the benchmark for world standards?

Aim for the top 10 percent - having said that it is a rather gigantic task to set up the benchmark.

For example, I am aiming to be the top 100 most influential man in the world.

- How are you going to ensure your students meet the benchmark? How are they going to know what, where, how they are going to meet the benchmark? What are your followup actions?

3. Which world leaders will the student learn from?
For example, if someone wants to build a search engine in the Malaysia, then he/she will aim to be as good as 'google' or 'yahoo'.

Bill Gates

'Thinking globally, act locally'

- How are you going to get Bill Gates to teach them? (or the likes of him)

4. What the heck does Building the platform for Malaysians to learn how to compete at the world standard and learn from the world leaders means? Nice words, nice sounding phrase altogether but after reading 3 times, still doesnt make much sense to me!

Malaysian + my platform = world standard = compete with the best = conquer the world

My platform = power, money, networking & wisdom

- Great idea. How?

[bingzhang]

Er.....is Wedko lost or are we lost with the original idea of the thread? I feel like kinda out of topic sometime.

BY the way, where is Gula2tingtong who start this thread? Still alive? :D

[Maxforce]

hmm think we all are!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Guess in the midst of threading between being a complete kpc and being helpful, it kinda sway a little. Perhaps cos we all want to see Wedko succeed in his vision?

[Wedko]

Yeah, I am feeling a little bit guity to hijack this thread.

Maybe I should start off another thread entitles 'Wedko's VISION'.

Nevertheless, there are many constructive suggestions and discussion for the past few days which I will take into account in my new venture, special thanks to Maxforce.

[Maxforce]

welcome... glad i could be of assistance...

[Wedko]

First of all, I have to restate that my vision is a general one or a direction of my future business, it has not applied to any particular business.

In short, helping Malaysians (including myself) to be at the top of the world. How, I would start from education and business angle.

1. What kind of platform?

Platform is a medium where two needs can be met, it could be done through website or some place like Stock exchange.

KLSE is a platform for people to buy and sell shares.

- What platform are you going to build? Have you selected website as your platform? If so, SEO is definitely VERY crucial. Is it going to be done through Physical Establishment?

Since I am not in Malaysia now, I would prefer to use internet technology.


2. What is the benchmark for world standards?

Aim for the top 10 percent - having said that it is a rather gigantic task to set up the benchmark.

For example, I am aiming to be the top 100 most influential man in the world.

- How are you going to ensure your students meet the benchmark? How are they going to know what, where, how they are going to meet the benchmark? What are your followup actions?

Good point, my platform will be the solution to your question.
What kind of platform, I am still searching...



3. Which world leaders will the student learn from?
For example, if someone wants to build a search engine in the Malaysia, then he/she will aim to be as good as 'google' or 'yahoo'.

Bill Gates

'Thinking globally, act locally'

- How are you going to get Bill Gates to teach them? (or the likes of him)

We can read his biography, if possible I will meet him personally and ask help from him (Daydream only, but I will try to make it happen

4. What the heck does Building the platform for Malaysians to learn how to compete at the world standard and learn from the world leaders means? Nice words, nice sounding phrase altogether but after reading 3 times, still doesnt make much sense to me!

Malaysian + my platform = world standard = compete with the best = conquer the world

My platform = power, money, networking & wisdom

- Great idea. How?

Still searching .... this is going to be the holy grail of my fortune.

[nick_khaw]

That's what we call 'VISION'

As long as I can finish my job and perform well in the quality of my work, my boss doesn't care what I am doing during the work.
My performance is based on result not how much time I work.

We are not a factory worker where we have to work from 9-5.

To be honest, your dreams of grandeur are very promising. However, I think you need to change your attitude of work. With all due respect, when you're paid to do a job, you shouldn't partake in a forum during your office hours even if you're able to finish your job and provide good efficiency, particularly if you move higher up. A responsible boss would censure anyone who was doing other stuff while being on the job at hand. This is not meant to offend you, but to offer you constructive criticism.

[Wedko]

Nick_khaw

Thanks for your comment.

I would appreciate if you don't start on the personal attack.

What's the point for you to say this !

We are all here to exchange our views on the topics that we want to discuss, if you don't like it you are welcome not to participate.

Here, we are talking about how to generate a better business idea, how to implement, how to develop, but all of the sudden you are talking about morality and responsibility at work.

Sometimes, I feel that it is because there are some people like you who are simply Care 'TOO MUCH' about many minor things that prevent people like me to get the main things done.

If I were the boss, I would be happy not to have you onboard as you could upset the whole team including THE BOSS.

How the H#ll could you know that we were at work?
Some of us are living in the different time zones, mates! Unless you track all the times we posted the messages and where we are currently, how the h@<hidden> could you know that we were at work?
Why do you care?
I might be having my break or do it at lunch time. How long have we been doing this?

To make thing worse, you are starting on the unwanted attack on me.

While I can understand where you are coming from, I can't understand why you are so free to look at the times I posted my messages and thinking whether I was at work or not.

I don't need your lecture on moral eventhough you are the professor in Harvard or MIT!

In short, what you are saying here is unneccessary and offensive.


p/s It is 7 in the morning here in London. I usually just ignore people like Nick_khaw, but I think he is too much this time, sorry guys, for my long furious reply.

[ck]

Everybody is entitle of their views in this forum... so let's not get personal. Free speech mah!
:D

So, let just put a stop to it. I would certainly be keen to know about the business concept rather than participating in non productive arguement.

[Maxforce]

I m inclined to be with both Wedko and ck
Wedko, for his views on productivity
Ck for his coolness in the situation

Chill wedko bro, remember this is a student network forum, most of the members are students and may not see things the way we do... gee, what are we old folks doing here? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Anyway, lemme give you one scenario nick, it may illustrate my point and wedko's

Assuming, you have hired a Director of Marketing for your company. Now, this guy comes into office at 9, then leaves at 10am and then comes back to office at 4pm before leaving at 5. The time he is not in office is in the opposite pub. Would you fire him?
Probably yes. Now what if this is the guy who brings in 70% of your company's total sale and managed a 20-50% growth in sales every year. And his team of staff has never been more motivated since he joined your company.
Would you still fire this guy?

Note:
Above illustration is adapted from a true story. Names of the personnel involved and the company name would not be divulged due to confidentiality reasons.

[nick_khaw]

Now, now, it's getting a bit out of hand here. Let's stop the cursing and start the loving.

Lol. You're funny Wedko. A bit of constructive criticism induces such a lengthy and, er, "long furious" reply.

I never said you were at work. I definitely don't keep track of what times the postings are. I just said I hoped that you guys weren't doing this at work and well, to be perfectly honest, you blew it out of proportion.

I said I didn't mean to offend you, but to offer constructive criticism, which isn't the same as a personal attack. If at any point, you can prove to me that I clearly stated, "You're doing this in work and this is wrong", fine. I never said you were doing this at work. I just couldn't agree with your ideal of the justification of doing whatever during the 9-5 as long as you meet your sales target. My sentences are littered with loads of 'ifs' and 'shoulds'. Frankly, this and that weren't meant to be personal attacks. Just constructive critiscm.

What I am saying here is necessary, just not in the context of this post. And you should really calm down, dude. If people can't accept constructive criticism, how would we ever better ourselves?

Tsk tsk. No business ideas? Here's a business idea - the small things matter just as much as the big things when you rise higher and higher in your profession. As you get higher, everyone can do the big things. It's just who can pay attention to the minor things. Certainly, I've had very little experience running a business, but, if you look at the world, there are more middle-class businessmen than high-end businessmen. The difference between them is the small, minor things they do. Which is why I wanted to offer you my constructive criticism. It'll be awesome for Malaysia if you were to become a huge business dude. All I was trying to tell you was that some aspects of your ethics should change to cross that bridge. If you take this as a personal attack, well, okay, I won't say anymore about your super ethics after this post.

Would I fire him? I actually think I would. That's a good scenario, bordering on the extreme, possibly, and I'm quite sure it's not something that happens very often. There are a few things to consider when answering that question.

1) What he does in the opposite pub? If he were dealing with clients while in the pub, I'd consider that work hours. If he were drinking his head off, I'd sack him. He won't be a good example for the workers, no matter how happy and motivated they are, or a good image for the company, particularly if my company is a big one. And while your guy in the story may have stayed in the job, many more have probably got the sack in cases like this. For example, in the 1980s, a football player named Norman Whiteside, a player who played in the World Cup at just 16 and had already scored a winning goal in the FA Cup Final (how's that for productivity?), was gotten rid off by Manchester United because of his drinking tendencies.
2) How big my company is. If my company is big, replacement factor is almost next to nothing. I can get some other guy with better work ethics to come in. If my company is small, I might not be able to replace him but I'd refer to reason 1 in my decision. Or an alternative solution is to look for someone else as good but with better work habits while still keeping him on until I find the replacement.
3) And yes, I care a lot about company's total sale and growth, but, in the long run, someone like this can only hurt the company. The way a team works is based on the leader. In the long run, the marketing team would think that because the Director is doing it, we could do it as well. You cannot give one guy special treatment and expect everyone else not to be happy. In fact, I don't understand how the marketing team can be happy if they knew their Director was at the pub between 10-4. Perhaps, you could clear that up?

Er, I give football examples b'cos it's what I'm most familiar with. But, I have to say MaxForce, your example is a good one, albeit a bit flawed. Unfortunately, just like most counterarguments, it's based on a specific case. There will always be exceptions to the general. This guy might be a super-human person, but, how many people are like that? Maybe in 1 out of 10 cases can a person spend so much time in a pub and produce so much. The other 9/10 would get the sack, would they not? This is a tradeoff between productivity and ethics as well as long run and short run. If I sack him, who's to say my productivity will go down? But I can decide to hire someone who has better ethics.

Short run, this guy could be good. Long run, I wouldn't want him on the job. A leader makes tough decisions like in this case.

Anyway, back to original forum post. I think I stated in one of my previous posts that SEA would be a better starting point. London is fine, but I daresay not many students from London would want to pursue their secondary or tertiary education in Malaysia.

Another point is, if you were to do advertising for your firm, how would you do it? Online is not enough as most students here won't care about banners and ads on a website. TV might be a bit too costly when you're starting out. But radio is possible as are newspapers. But, that would require more physical presence from you to oversee things.

So, yes, my opinion and my explanation for my constructive critiscm which were not personal attacks. And, if anyone finds my current posting offensive, well, then I'm in a no-win situation. And before you guys decide to pick my head off should you decide to, pls note that I did not make any generalizations. And if you guys really really want to make it big, I think you should take my thoughts from this post into consideration. I want to make it big too, who doesn't? Which is why I want to share my views on how the world is with you. Not putting effort into the job despite production will only get you the sack in the long term because a company will look to replace you. Successful people know that every second counts. That's something I think you guys should note. Every second counts.

[lotus]

There are various ways of interpreting work ethics. Some workers of the world are made to labour like slaves on the pretext of work ethics. This is taken to the extreme which of course is not right.

However, I agree with the opinion that to belong to the small group of high-end businessmen, ultimately there should be no compromise on good basic work ethics. Cliche as it may be but what goes around, comes around.

[Maxforce]

Actually I m totally calm and cool today, and was trying to make a point there...
anyway reply as follows:

1. Yeah the company in the end sack the drunk Director and lost enormous amounts of sales. Morale in the dept was all time low. Somehow, we could not phantom why the dept could not work well without the idiot since he practically wasnt there... anyway, it was a bad decision, trust me. Yeah one extreme case but guess what... the guy could afford to drink all day long cos - he has the major accounts in his hands. Yeap, extreme case.. yeap... but this is something I wanted to share that illustrates the pareto 80/20 rule which means 80% of your effort should be focused into 20% of the total number which will yield your 80% of value. It is a model of efficiency and effectiveness

Maybe it is hard for you to accept. I could understand. But les put it this way, if you have a staff that works till the wee hours everyday. Do you think this is a good staff?
I think he s probably a lousy one!
1. OT means inefficiency to me!
2. If overloaded with work, SPEAK UP!!! - its a question of assertiveness

Now, one lousy goal in World Cup means nuttin, think Trezeguet, I think he sucks! Think Baros in the recent EURO 2004, but he suck at Liverpool. One time miracles. Anyway, if back then was Alex Fergusan or maybe someone like Alex Fergusan, I thinl the reason was probably disagreement with manager. Simple as that. Sometimes, what is published, has already been "rewritten"

Keep until find replacement? Bad move, shows indecisiveness. I recommend the book Winning by Jack Welch. Very relevant to this point here. Or simply drop by MPH or some bookstore and check it out.

Jus because the BOSS is happy hour-ing does not mean that you as the measly staff can. E.g. I arrived work on time b cos I am a measly staff and need to set some lousy example to my staff. But my lousy boss, comes much much later. Does that mean that we can? Nope. Also, when we talk about motivation and willingness to follow the leader, it really takes more than just Carrot and Stick. So here I take this opportunity to recommend the Carrot and Stick Book to you. Go read up on motivational methods to keep your staff happy and motivated for more! Would be useful in your future.

On the original topic, yeah your points are all valid. Here's something for targetting locals instead of foreigners - FREE SEMINARS for students after/DURING SPM. Go to their school and give the free talk. Invite ppl to come to your college, and again free talk. Now if you can really sweet talk, then all this will definitely amount to more than just talks. (Got crazy with ryhmes!!!)

[lotus]

Now, one lousy goal in World Cup means nuttin, think Trezeguet, I think he sucks! Think Baros in the recent EURO 2004, but he suck at Liverpool. One time miracles. Anyway, if back then was Alex Fergusan or maybe someone like Alex Fergusan, I thinl the reason was probably disagreement with manager. Simple as that. Sometimes, what is published, has already been "rewritten"

Keep until find replacement? Bad move, shows indecisiveness. I recommend the book Winning by Jack Welch. Very relevant to this point here. Or simply drop by MPH or some bookstore and check it out.

haha....it's really amazing to me how you guys managed somehow to mix football & business or all areas for the matter...something to do with passion I guess..hmmm.. must say football is BIG business though :)

[nick_khaw]

Actually I m totally calm and cool today, and was trying to make a point there...
anyway reply as follows:

1. Yeah the company in the end sack the drunk Director and lost enormous amounts of sales. Morale in the dept was all time low. Somehow, we could not phantom why the dept could not work well without the idiot since he practically wasnt there... anyway, it was a bad decision, trust me. Yeah one extreme case but guess what... the guy could afford to drink all day long cos - he has the major accounts in his hands. Yeap, extreme case.. yeap... but this is something I wanted to share that illustrates the pareto 80/20 rule which means 80% of your effort should be focused into 20% of the total number which will yield your 80% of value. It is a model of efficiency and effectiveness

Maybe it is hard for you to accept. I could understand. But les put it this way, if you have a staff that works till the wee hours everyday. Do you think this is a good staff?
I think he s probably a lousy one!
1. OT means inefficiency to me!
2. If overloaded with work, SPEAK UP!!! - its a question of assertiveness

Now, one lousy goal in World Cup means nuttin, think Trezeguet, I think he sucks! Think Baros in the recent EURO 2004, but he suck at Liverpool. One time miracles. Anyway, if back then was Alex Fergusan or maybe someone like Alex Fergusan, I thinl the reason was probably disagreement with manager. Simple as that. Sometimes, what is published, has already been "rewritten"

Keep until find replacement? Bad move, shows indecisiveness. I recommend the book Winning by Jack Welch. Very relevant to this point here. Or simply drop by MPH or some bookstore and check it out.

Jus because the BOSS is happy hour-ing does not mean that you as the measly staff can. E.g. I arrived work on time b cos I am a measly staff and need to set some lousy example to my staff. But my lousy boss, comes much much later. Does that mean that we can? Nope. Also, when we talk about motivation and willingness to follow the leader, it really takes more than just Carrot and Stick. So here I take this opportunity to recommend the Carrot and Stick Book to you. Go read up on motivational methods to keep your staff happy and motivated for more! Would be useful in your future.

On the original topic, yeah your points are all valid. Here's something for targetting locals instead of foreigners - FREE SEMINARS for students after/DURING SPM. Go to their school and give the free talk. Invite ppl to come to your college, and again free talk. Now if you can really sweet talk, then all this will definitely amount to more than just talks. (Got crazy with ryhmes!!!)

Er, Trezeguet is very keng. Just so you know. Look at his record. Baros, on the other hand, haih.

Anyway, I just want to make clear that I have been involved in running a business before so I would like to say that I'm not just throwing assertions here and there.

No, I want staff who can produce the maximum output during office hours. I hate overtime. I agree with you that overtime signifies inefficiency. Which is why I don't think that ppl should slack off during office hours when they should be concentrating on the job at hand. Even if you achieve your targets and still have free time in office, if you make use of your free time, you can get more. Which is good for your company and for yourself.

And yes, I will admit I don't know much about the pareto 80/20 rule. However, I think it might interest you to read this :-

There is a management theory floating around at the moment that proposes to interpret Pareto's Principle in such a way as to produce what is called Superstar Management. The theory's supporters claim that since 20 percent of your people produce 80 percent of your results you should focus your limited time on managing only that 20 percent, the superstars. The theory is flawed, as we are discussing here because it overlooks the fact that 80 percent of your time should be spent doing what is really important. Helping the good become better is a better use of your time than helping the great become terrific. Apply the Pareto Principle to all you do, but use it wisely.

I got this from :- http://management.about.com/cs/generalmanagement/a/Pareto081202.htm

Be careful not to enter the theory of Superstar Management.

Hmmm...Yes, we definitely cannot be happy-houring just because the boss is doing so. But, I'm clearly missing something here. Perhaps you can tell me how the Director of Marketing does so well despite his drunkardness? How does he motivate ppl so well and keep up his productivity? And also, would you want to work for a Boss who keeps coming late and getting drunk?

Indecisiveness? Hmm...I can't quite agree with you here. If I decide to sack him without a replacement, what will happen? If I can find someone to replace him, wouldn't that be a better choice? And I don't think it's indecisive. I'd put it as waiting for the right moment to screw a guy over.

As for motivation, yes it's more than Carrot and Stick. But how many ppl feel motivated if their boss continuously goes happy-houring or coming late? If you could explain that to me, that would be nice.

I don't need your lecture on moral eventhough you are the professor in Harvard or MIT!

One thing people should learn. Never stop trying to get better. Listen to ppl if they're offering constructive criticism, no matter who they are. There's a very nice quote by Michael Jordan that goes :-

I listened, I was aware of my success and I never stopped trying to get better.

We must never stop trying to get better. Achieving a target alone is good, but we should keep on trying to scale new heights. That's what distinguishes the great from the good.

MaxForce, I'm afraid that I can't agree with you about your example. I think it's a good example, just pretty extreme and doesn't commonly happen. I could be wrong, and pls correct me if I am, but I think it's a 1 out of 10 kind of case.

I would wager that in most companies, the productive and efficient and motivational heads are those that concentrate fully during work.

[Salvation]

This link might be of interest
http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/index.cfm?fa=viewArticle&id=1322

[Maxforce]

Nick,

You HIT RIGHT IN THE MARK!!! Great!
Yeah I was talking about Superstar Management, Mediocre Management and well, below par Management
But hey, we re really hijacking this thread now... I ll be most happy if after this reply, you could start a new thread on this with some quotes from our earlier discussion

Er, Trezeguet is very keng. Just so you know. Look at his record. Baros, on the other hand, haih.

Trezeguet sucks. But then, well whatever. I think Raul sucks as well. Raul reminds me of Luis Garcia. Both sucks.

Anyway, I just want to make clear that I have been involved in running a business before so I would like to say that I'm not just throwing assertions here and there.

You are entitled to your opinion whether you have run business or not. Even if you re a 5 year old, you can express your opinion :D

No, I want staff who can produce the maximum output during office hours. I hate overtime. I agree with you that overtime signifies inefficiency. Which is why I don't think that ppl should slack off during office hours when they should be concentrating on the job at hand. Even if you achieve your targets and still have free time in office, if you make use of your free time, you can get more. Which is good for your company and for yourself.

Great, I like your thinking! The reason why I mention that was because, a lot of Msian bosses cannot seem to grasp the idea.
Now, allow me to illustrate something, yet again:
One lady who was a single parent work in some direct selling organisation. Started off running promotions in supermarkets etc. Her hard work paid off and she was the superstar of the sales dept. She was earning USD50K at her peak. Then her sales slack off to USD30K. Still she was among the top sales. The manager confronted her with whats wrong. She said nothing, just that now she wants to concentrate more on her child. The manager was like, you have more potential la, you can do this, you can do that.
Yeah sure she can. But lets put it this way, employment is a contract of services between the employer and the employee. Employee give the service what the employer requires. Who is to say, you can be better, etc. Having said that, I am still a very aggressive at work, but as I age and age and yet age again, maybe I wont be so aggressive when I am nearing my retirement age.


There is a management theory floating around at the moment that proposes to interpret Pareto's Principle in such a way as to produce what is called Superstar Management. The theory's supporters claim that since 20 percent of your people produce 80 percent of your results you should focus your limited time on managing only that 20 percent, the superstars. The theory is flawed, as we are discussing here because it overlooks the fact that 80 percent of your time should be spent doing what is really important. Helping the good become better is a better use of your time than helping the great become terrific. Apply the Pareto Principle to all you do, but use it wisely.

The author s opinion, I do not agree.
As per the illustration above, some wants to be great. Some does not. Helping good to be great? Sounds ideal but doesnt work.
When I hire for a certain posiition, normally I ll think to myself 2 things only
1. Do I need someone great or someone to do the job?
2. Do I need someone to stay long in this position or just as starting ground for promotion?

Believe me, many ppl when they hire staff, they already hire for future managers.
Manage the superstars, let the superstars manage the mediocre, thats what I call delegation.

Hmmm...Yes, we definitely cannot be happy-houring just because the boss is doing so. But, I'm clearly missing something here. Perhaps you can tell me how the Director of Marketing does so well despite his drunkardness? How does he motivate ppl so well and keep up his productivity? And also, would you want to work for a Boss who keeps coming late and getting drunk?

He has an IQ of 240!??
He has really good relationship with the major customers? And I mean really good relationship like when the customer's son/daugther get married, he will personally attend etc.?
Motivation? Hey, you know where the boss is. Opposite pub oni. Having being drunk, he still treats his staff very well. Delegation of authority, guidance, etc. Everyone not only looks up at him because of his intelligence and wisdom but also likes him personally. This guy has some magical charm!!! (Maybe he practise voodoo)

Indecisiveness? Hmm...I can't quite agree with you here. If I decide to sack him without a replacement, what will happen? If I can find someone to replace him, wouldn't that be a better choice? And I don't think it's indecisive. I'd put it as waiting for the right moment to screw a guy over.

DIY. or Promote from within. Or whatever, never be held hostage. Also, it will be creating unnessary prolonged tension and plunge in morale. Imagine your the sales exec. You know your big boss is going to axe you boss. Whats your morale? Better to get on with it before it dips to low...

As for motivation, yes it's more than Carrot and Stick. But how many ppl feel motivated if their boss continuously goes happy-houring or coming late? If you could explain that to me, that would be nice.

Long story. a little bit above. But if you start a new thread, I ll participate.

One thing people should learn. Never stop trying to get better. Listen to ppl if they're offering constructive criticism, no matter who they are. There's a very nice quote by Michael Jordan that goes :-

I listened, I was aware of my success and I never stopped trying to get better.

We must never stop trying to get better. Achieving a target alone is good, but we should keep on trying to scale new heights. That's what distinguishes the great from the good.

Yeah agreed but then we're superstars, we re key performers. We need not know the basics of being great cos, we already are. Yeah not too modest here, but it is a fact.
Managing people is one abstract thing. YOu could not manage a superstar the way you manage the mediocre. Just does not work.
With mediocres, you try to be more of assigning certain instructions, methods, etc. With superstars, you just say, Max, I want this investment appraisal of the new production line.
You dont go and advise Max how to do it, cos Max will be VERY annoyed. (unless Max doesnt already know lah, but then, he ll ask)

MaxForce, I'm afraid that I can't agree with you about your example. I think it's a good example, just pretty extreme and doesn't commonly happen. I could be wrong, and pls correct me if I am, but I think it's a 1 out of 10 kind of case.

I would wager that in most companies, the productive and efficient and motivational heads are those that concentrate fully during work.

Extreme, yeah quite so quite so but then, a common occurence, how many sales personnel will "ular" in their working time and yet is the best performer? How many accountants will just walk around and say its MBWA and still saves millions for the company each year? How many Production Manager will just sit around and maybe play Solitaire and still the production line cant proceed without them?
You will find, in most organisations, all of the above is true.
Fact is, it doesnt matter if you are a real hardworking fella that doesnt produce results.
RESULTS based management is the key. People manage and appraise through their results. NOT efforts. Yeah, back when I was in school, we learn that TRYING OUR BEST. that good enuff. Unfortunately it is not. RESULTS SPEAKS, even if you re a lazy bum who spends only 50-70% of your effort but gives better results than someone who gives 120% of his/her effort.

[nick_khaw]

Yeap, I fully agree with results-based evaluation. Results matter first, yes, but if I feel someone is not putting in their full potential, I would consider their position as well. There are 2 things here I would consider if I were to sack someone :-

1. Not performing within the given period (Maybe I'd give him one more chance to prove himself but that's it)
2. Performing but not maximizing his productivity. (Long-term, very disruptive. And also, long-term, it's easy to find a replacement)

And I agree that Luis Garcia sucks. I'm a Liverpool fanatic, but Luis Garcia sucks.

I don't get your example. You said that "Employee give the service what the employer requires". So if the employer says that she has more potential, shouldn't she attempt to raise productivity?

Your hiring for position mentality is very admirable. Though, I'd like to add when ppl hire staff, some think of future managers while some think of just filling up the space.

Lol. If he practises voodoo, then it's quite an extreme case.

And yes, having thought about it, I agree with your point about replacement of ppl. Either DIY or Promote from within if I don't have a replacement. I was thinking of football example again. Lol. If you're a player and you know your manager was gonna get sacked, how would you feel? Lol. Sorry. Football is on my mind a lot.

And MaxForce, I like your confidence. I think modesty and humility aren't good traits as commonly believed. If you're good, you're good. And yeah, we might not need the basics, but if ppl can give us something constructive to work on, I think you'd agree that we should consider what they say.

Trying our best only works if we produce results. But, if you can already produce results as Wedko seems to be able to do, if you devote all your working time to productivity, you can excel even more. It's a shame in Malaysian society that we're easily satisfied. In Western societies and the Asian Economic giants of Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong and China etc etc, you find that they'll always look for ways to fully maximize their working times. And they always look to get better instead of just achieving a target.

As for the website offered (the wharton knowledge thingy), it gives the pros and cons for both. But one point that I think I was trying to articulate was that "The cost is more than hard dollars. It is morale, public opinion, the role model that is set, the impact on standards and the value system." And that was one of my points earlier. It's not good for company public opinion if one of the Directors is always drinking and spending time at the pub.

MaxForce, I enjoy discussing things with you because you speak very rationally. And you seem pretty knowledgeable. However, one point I must disagree with you. Trezeguet good la. And oh, if you don't mind some constructive criticism, if you really wanna continue to excel, it'd be helpful if you try to improve your english. Your english is fair as of now, but not that powerful yet. Pls don't take this as offensive, but constructive criticism. I try not to offend ppl, but I try to offer constructive comments.

[Maxforce]

the insolence of this kid is amazing!
btw, you are speaking to a holder of distinction in 1119.
and... when you start working, you d realise that you always try to speak the language that the crowd speaks, rather than what is grammatically correct. Critical English is not as important as fitting in with the crowd.
I can only wonder how many ppl will you sack when you become the boss.
Btw, Wedko IS in the WESTERN country!
As for myself, I am in an MNC environment.
Productivity is not measured by the hours you put but the results, i.e Results (in terms of value) over effort (hours spent), that is the less time you spend, the higher your productivity.

Your hiring for position mentality is very admirable. Though, I'd like to add when ppl hire staff, some think of future managers while some think of just filling up the space.

Exactly my point. But it depends on the position as well. I am not going to hire a future manager for a clerical position! Having said that, if the person really perform, I see no reason not to promote.

In Western societies and the Asian Economic giants of Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong and China etc etc, you find that they'll always look for ways to fully maximize their working times. And they always look to get better instead of just achieving a target.

Sorry man, even with the little productive time in your terms, we constantly exceed expectations. Thats why we re the superstars! :lol: :lol: :lol:

And MaxForce, I like your confidence. I think modesty and humility aren't good traits as commonly believed. If you're good, you're good. And yeah, we might not need the basics, but if ppl can give us something constructive to work on, I think you'd agree that we should consider what they say.

Modesty and humility IS a good trait actually. It helps ppl to believe, follow and consult you. I am more modest and humble with my staff, but you're not my staff :P :P :P

Your comment on constructive comments is noted and considered. Not relevant to superstar performers! :P :P :P

btw, nick, seriously I am feeling guilty of hijacking this thread. Please start a new thread if you want the discussion to proceed. Also I understand the mods position. They must be thinking, this ppl ar, hijack ppls thread so kau lat. But if I were to delete, then some knowledge may be lost... How ar? (Maxforce also has been recently appointed as a moderator in another forum).

Sorry mods! Sorry Gualingtong!

[Wedko]

Hi Nick

I have been thinking whether I should respond to your comments again as I really don't want to stir things up.

However, there are a few points that I have to make it clear here (Nick, this is not a furious response, ok, hug, hug, kiss, kiss to you).
- Forget about the latter if you are a male

Ok,

first point

While I welcome your constructive criticism, I don't think it is a good idea to start off your first sentence by asking

'Am I right in thinking that ck, Wedko and MaxForce are all working now? I hope you guys don't do this during your office hours. Lol.'

This is like when you first join the company and you have seen your collegues checking their personal emails at work, and you start to question them 'am I right in thinking that you are not allowed to do this? I hope you guys don't do this again during the office hours.'

And, I guess after that nobody will invite you out for a drink.

What is the problem here? The problem is you haven't even started your work but you are trying to point out your so-called 'constructive criticism'.

Ok, let me put it in this way, it is about you lack of diplomatic skill- the way you asked the question. I know you like to listen, so listen to me if not you will find it hard to survive in your company.

By the way, in the UK, it is very impolite to start off a question with 'am I right to....' if your purpose is to give out a warning or provide your parental advice.

I notice that Malaysians like to do this but I do not know whether it is normal in the US.


Second point

When I mention about my view on the working hours and productivity, I didn't mean workers can abuse their position or performance in the company to be slack at work (Maxforce's example is an extreme case). What I am saying is if you give your staff some time allowances, then you will have a bunch of happy bunnies.

It means you can't expect your staff to work hard for you all the time. We are human not robot. Even robots need time for maintenance.

In accountancy profession, we have our busy period and quiet period. During our busy period, we don't even have time to go to the loo! When we are in our quiet period, we can go out to have drink one hour earlier before our normal finishing time.

Sometimes we work extra hard, sometimes we relax, and the most important thing is we get the job done.

It may be different for other professions, Nick, I hope you will understand why I say productivity is more important than the time that you put in.

In fact, in my recent appraisal, one of my boss's comments was I have a good time management because I don't work late and yet get the job done properly and on time.

If I have to work overtime, she might think that I am not performing.

Finally, English is just a tool of communication, I totally agree with Maxforce, you have to speak crowd language. I can't see any problem with his English as I can understand him and we have been exchanging our views so many times without problem.

Why do you have to make your life and other people life complicated by using a scholar language?

In the UK, almost every sector including the government agencies are implementing a scheme calls 'plain English' by reducing all the jargons and difficult words.

From your writing, I can see that your writing skill is very high standard as you have applied many complicated sentences and words that I don't understand. And also the fact that you are extremely good in using 'Ifs' and 'shoulds'.

My only concern is will people understand you easily, could your clients read your letter with first glance, I doubt it. No everybody like you have a good education in English.

After this post, my future messages will be focusing on 'Education Business'.

[nick_khaw]

Official business, you can't deny that you require formal English. And if you were to meet a client, it's better to speak the 'scholar english' to show that you have a good command and then if you want to use the 'street english', it's fine. Besides, I haven't even used fancy jargon and impressive English. I'm saying, use proper grammar. Simple English. English-speaking customers will have more confidence in someone who can also speak English with proper grammar. You can't deny that. First impressions count.

Oh yes, I accept that that isn't the right move in the company. But this is a forum, so it's much more informal and less provocative. I don't expect forum ppl to ask me out for drinks anyway.

And yes, I agree with your 'bunch of happy bunnies' comment. But I'm saying that it's common business ethics to maximize your working hours to things involving your job.

And Wedko, this is a much more rational post. So, thanks for understanding where I'm coming from.

As for Maxforce.

Insolence? I take that personally. So, if you please, no insults on my character. Insolence isn't constructive. Say something like, "Be more diplomatic."

And I honestly don't see fit to reply to your points anymore because of one quote. I had a pretty high regard of you which has gone down considerably.

Your comment on constructive comments is noted and considered. Not relevant to superstar performers!

That's mediocre mentality. With all due respect, if you keep having that mentality, you won't go far. Not relevant? Every superstar, in whatever field, must learn to accept constructive comments. Whether they choose to change is another thing, but at the very least they should accept. We must keep trying to get better. Don't be complacent.

Again, like Michael Jordan once said, "I listened, I was aware of my success and I never stopped trying to get better." That is the key. Keep trying to get better.

As of now, I don't think I can see fit to discuss your points simply because of that mentality of yours. It was nice talking to you and I wish you well. But pls consider that above quote. Certainly I want you to succeed. However, that mentality might prove to be a stumbling block.

And as of now, like Wedko, my posts will be about the original forum topic.

[Maxforce]

This kid has a way with words! Really amazing! Hahaha
But truly, by reading the whole post, I d like to offer a constructive criticism on your action which gives an impression of being a hypocrite!

on one hand, you said, if you could take contructive comments, and in the other, you couldnt take it yourself.
and
one one hand, you says, dont take it personally - its not a personal attack and on the other, you took a non personal comment as a personal attack.

Insolence. Why insolence? The word basically comes out of insult. No dictionary needed! haha I am shaking my head as I type this! To me, that is a wake up call to you that you're not being diplomatic. And since, your character is such a forceful one, it would take a more forceful choice of words to wake you up! Look, both Wedko and I have been working in the real world for such a long time and the both of us, I believe, is a constant superstar performer. Fact is, we have something which you have not - credibility. All talk and no proof man! Sorrylah if you feel offended to what is the fact, it is none of my business whether you take it well or not. As a matter of fact, your perception of me whether it is good or bad, is also none of my business.

And look, we certainly need no wise guy telling us about business ethics when he s still not in business, or not long enough in business. Yet, I think we have been most kind to share with you some of the facts in the real world.

Nobody in the business world uses proper scholar English, especially in Malaysia. In fact you would be giving a very WRONG impression. You d be giving a real cocky and arrogant impression. Plus, assuming I am visiting a destruction site (dump site) I am NOT going to wear a tie, simply because I do not want to alienate the boss of the dumpsite. We speak English and it is a really "Caplang" broken English because we could relate better that way. Reality check heh? Why the hell did I study THAT hard back then to get that stewpik distinction in 1119 when it did not matter in the real world? Well, maybe cos, I didnt know back then!!! (I should have focused better on other subjects - but then again, hey, guess what? It didn't matter as well!!!)

Kiyosaki says beware of who you receive advice from. You yourself MUST have the ability to judge whether the particular advice is relevant or not to you. As for your comment, it was noted, considered and dismissed as irrelevant. Yeah, go on sulk just because I dismiss your "good" advice. Comm'on... Dont sulk...

btw I did not come here to be criticised, in fact the last thing i want to be is being criticised here. more like just bored...

[Maxforce]

And if you were to meet a client, it's better to speak the 'scholar english' to show that you have a good command and then if you want to use the 'street english', it's fine.

Yeah a bit more on the insolence part. My friend, your command of English is good, but more or less in the same standard oni.
hate to do this, but needed to give you a reality check. The above quote highlighted in black is considered "hanging" back in my school days. Its not Critical English as we used to call it. Why hanging? Cos, good command of what? It seems to need to have a word or two after the phrase. But I ve always thought that as crap anyway... Just a friendly reality check

[nick_khaw]

Wedko, for advertizing, you can advertise through this website of which I am involved in, www.tinkosong.blogspot.com

I think it would suit your purposes well.

[Wedko]

Thanks, Nick.

I will have a look at it.

[ck]

Man, you guys make me looks like a grown up with lousy english.
:lol:

I will read up more on superstar managers before talking more. Seems interesting. If you guys have a new thread to continue your management discussion, please do let me know. I will be more happy to know listen and learn.

My opinion on managing people:
We think we know a great deal about managing people, but in actual fact we do not know. Needs are constantly changing. We need to always adapt to the scenario. We have plan and backup... but when those fails, what do we do? I never believe that you can achieve 100% result on what you plan.

My moto to management, adaptability and timing.

Then again, it's only easy for me to say. Never really ever manage more than 10 people, wants to sound like a guru.
:lol:

[Maxforce]

Well said,
I ll be starting a new thread on that but in another forum, (you know which) along with quotes from Jack Welch and the likes of him. Might be interesting.
But definitely your point there is VERY strong - adaptability. No single method could be used to managed everyone, we re not robots. Even robots have different models and specifications.
As for English, ahhh, unless you re interviewing for a job as an English language lecturer, I don't see the point at all, especially if your future boss has a lesser command of the language. You DEFINITELY would sound like trying to intimidate him/her for the fact.
Education business... well definitely I think online is the way to go, but I must stress on the INTERACTIVITY. Offer something that will be close to actual experience in class i.e. visual, and spontaneousness. But online has an edge - comfort in own home!
Also data that will NOT be lost, just because one s concentration was disturbed or somewhat along the line.
Definitely online!

[ck]

Max, if you posted any info on the forum about management, e-mail me to let me know. I will try to follow. Sometimes, just too busy to go through everything.

So, Wedko, how's your plan coming along?

[Wedko]

I am meeting one student this wednesday.

Hopefully thing will go through smoothly. My potential first customer and the first taste of getting money into the business.

I am concentrating on ACCA course at the moment, have a few contacts with colleges providing ACCA course in London.

Good start.

Website is in the progress, watch out.

[Maxforce]

Starting from ACCA would be a great idea! Good Luck Wedko!

[ck]

Wedko, you can also try this particular course since you are in UK.
Check out the Institute of Administrative Management (UK). For short they are called IAM.

I understand that their programme, you can do 2 year diploma (similar like UOL Diploma programme) and a final year degree at Universities in Australia or UK. Though these universities may not be top class, but they are quite okay. You can check out their university list.
The course fees are very very much cheaper compare to a university fees and the way the course is being conducted is attractive.

My GF completed this course in Malaysia. But I think currently the government has stopped a lot of foreign diploma courses.
Plus, this course is particular famous in HK.
You might consider to look at it.

[Wedko]

Thanks for your suggestion.

I'll conduct more research on this course.

My initial strategy is to target professional courses and I feel that this is a niche area.

[ck]

No problem. My motto is "sharing is caring"
:lol:

Maybe you could have courses that are suitable for working adults like me.

[Wedko]

You have to let me know what course you are looking for?

or what kind of study you would be interested in ?

[nick_khaw]

Hmmm...Ck might have hit on something.

Instead of students, why not target working adults?

B'cos there aren't many businesses that delve into the education service for working adults in M'sia.

You might be one of the pioneers.

[Maxforce]

To expand more on ideas that was originally ck's
MBA?

[Wedko]

isn't there is one programme supported by MCA called 'Lifelong learning'?

In the UK, we have 'Open University' and learn direct, both are targeting working adults.

[Maxforce]

heard of it... and recall vaguely what it is... but not too sure... why?

[Wedko]

Is it popular?

Is it really useful?