Rukun Negara's 'Kepercayaan Kepada Tuhan"

[Vigilante]

Remember we used to recite the Rukun Negara in school every Monday morning/afternoon? Just in case someone forgets it, our Rukun Negara is

Kepercayaan Kepada Tuhan
Kesetiaan Kepada Raja dan Negara
Keluhuran Perlembagaan
Kedaulatan Undang-undang
Kesopanan dan Kesusilaan

Just some questions about the first line. Does that mean you have to believe in a Supreme Being to be a Malaysian? What if you are a freethinker? Does that mean you would not have a place in Malaysia? Is atheism allowed in Malaysia by laws?

Assuming that the rights of freethinkers/atheists are respected in Malaysia, would it be proper to make students who do not believe in any Supreme Being recite the Rukun Negara in school?

Remember, students have to raise their right hand while reciting it. That means they are swearing an oath, which they cannot say it just for the heck of it without meaning.

Let's assume that freethinkers are exempted from reciting the first line of the Rukun Negara. Wouldn't you see the problem then? Rukun Negara should be extensive and applicable to all Malaysians. If not, Rukun Negara would be pointless.

Also then consider the faiths of other religions. 'Tuhan' in general definition, means God. Most Chinese religions believe in the will of the 'Heaven' or 'Sky', but not God. Buddhists pray to Buddha (although Siddharta Gautama never claimed himself to be divine, and his philosophy stayed away from religion), Hindus worship deities.
If I made any mistakes about Buddhism and Hinduism, please forgive my ignorance)

[wwhong]

first of all, chinese religion is kinda complicated sometimes. the original one is taoist and then buddhism came in and start to mix. that's why u see some chinese family with buddha and other god on the table. i would say most of the chinese's religion in m'sia besides christian are the mixed one.
by saying will of the heaven also means will of the god.the idea of god and heaven or sky is kinda the same thing but there's also a lotsa gods in chinese belief. that's all i know so far,kindly correct me if I am wrong.

yeah, i kinda have the same question during high school. it's like when i first read it, kepercayaan kepada tuhan kinda means the same as kepercayaan kepada allah and I am not a muslim so does that mean I am not following rukun negara? later, i thought about the same question as well. how bout those who don't have a religion? what tuhan they supposed to believe in? do we need to establish a new set of rukun negara? i was just curious for a while and never asked anyone else. even if i asked i doubt anyone will answer me and will regard my question as crap.

would like to hear more opinions about this...

[topdog]

Not to sound rude, but i think right now malaysia has more pressing problems to think about than the rukun negara...

no offence dude. cheers.

[Schye]

Not to sound rude, but I think right now Malaysia has more pressing problems to think about than the rukun negara...

no offence dude. cheers.

Although this may not be a pressing problem but rukun negara is the basis of our country like the visions of Recom.
However, I always put a cross on my left hand while we were asked to put up our right hand and reciting it. It is not that I have no religion or have no respect in it but I think that there is no point of doing this. Maybe it is time to revise Rukun Negara and maybe we can suggest this to Pak Lah ;)

About Chinese religion, to me, I think the easiest way to differentiate the Buddhist and Taoist is the way of praying. Buddhist will pray to only Buddha or Kuanyim only and they never used any kind of meat to pray while Taoist will usually be using meat and they will have quite a lot of gods to pray to, for example the God of the sky, the God of the land etc including Buddha. I think most of the Chinese has mixed up their tradition with the religion so in fact, I think not many really can differentiate on from another.
(Well, I know not much about Taoism so can anyone correct me or explain more about Taoism?)

[Thirdshifter]

Malaysia was founded primarily by Muslims, not that i discredit the other religions but thats how it happened. So the founding fathers might have taught it'll be a good idea to give a vision of say, <italic>Nation under one god?</italic>

For an example, In USA, the In God we trust is one of the most highly debated issue. Before 1952 all of American Currency do not have the In god we trust.. They started to put it on when the cold war shift into full gear. More of a propaganda, Communist = no god = evil? America = Trust god = less evil.

I'm sure one day the Percayakan Tuhan might get removed from Rukun negara, but until someone makes noise about it.. i'm sure the goverment wouldn't mind it there.

Anyway, In schools tere's no more god in the pledge of alliance.

[z]

i don't think this is a trivial matter to be simply swept under the carpet.

doesn't it make sense that we should be clear of ourself, our identity, our believes or our nation's goal if we are to contribute to its advancement?

if the believe in a supreme being is the fundamental requirement of a malaysian, i think some (not insignificant) people will be deeply troubled.

however, of course, no one is really bothered by it because no one is going to lose his/her citizenship because he/she's a freethinker/atheist.

but, to stretch this a little farther, this could very well be turned into a really powerful political weapon to put certain people into exile... *smack* no more daydreaming :P

[jiinjoo]

in fact z brought out a very good point: what makes you a malaysian? or in his words what's the "fundamantal requirement"? (btw, i like your political aspirations....)

i personally pondered over this fact for a long time before this. i never came to any conclusions. in believing in manisfesto, i believe in being a citizen of a social state where freedom is guaranteed - you can say like US, but in believing in religion i haven't had any commitment so far, and that has sometimes made me look weird when people stare at me and say, "isn't malaysia an islamic state?"

here's a story from my childhood. my pendidikan moral teacher in my primary school thought us our rukun negara in a very different way. instead of justifying why we should believe in God or not, he simple wrote the rukun on the board, draw a big cross on the top 4 and proclaim to the class: "This last line of the rukun is the only important line you should learn." We confused kids will nod our heads in agreement, coz really, at that time, at least for me, i have no personal contact with, 1. God, 2. Agong, 3. Constitution, and 4. Law, therefore why should I care? But I do get a lot of caning from not being nice to people. So it seems to me really that being a good citizen of Malaysia (as we sing it in our school song) is to have kesopanan and kesusilaan. How right was he?

Currently I'm having much contact with line 3 (education issues) and line 4 (paying taxes + speeding tickets), and yet I still don't have contact with 1 and 2, unlike a religious person (for 1), or a citizen of a country like Japan or Thailand (for 2). Is that sufficient? sigh, still a lost 8 year old ...

[luke]

if you refer back to Sejarah Malaysia form 5 textbook (or Sejarah PMR textbooks) you'd read about the main reasons behind the introduction of the Rukun Negara ... it's May the 13th 1969 ... because of this bloody tragedy the goverment at that time was forced to fix the situation and possibly prevent it from happening again .. thus, together with a bunch of stuff they introduce all these things like Dasar Ekonomi Baru, Sekolah Kebangsaan, Lagu Kebangsaan with hope it would sow patriotism among people .. well, that's the hope ... I myself when I studied this topic for the exams I kinda questioning: how the hell would the Lagu Kebangsaan make you patriotic? sometimes you couldn't even understand what those people up there were thinking when they introduced certain policies ... but I do believe they have their good judgment and maybe (yeah, maybe) some good things will come out of it .. anyway up until now I don't think we have achieved what the Rukun Negara, Lagu Kebangsaan are for ... my teacher used to say that before the 13 May tragedy people used to call others by race (like "hey melayu .. hey cina") but they didn't feel offended even for a bit ... heh I absolutely don't think we are able to do that now and stay alive after that ... *sigh* this is what the reality behind our multiracial facade ... so until the time has come or until a better method is discovered, Rukun Negara (and a bunch of other stuff) are here to stay .. if the wording hurts your ears maybe you could suggest something to the people "up there" ... we are currently trying to secure a column in the Star ... the 1st article have been submitted (I read it and it's really good) and hopefully our ReCom will gain some more attentions especially from those who lead our beloved country ..

Kepercayaan Kepada Tuhan
Kesetiaan Kepada Raja dan Negara
Keluhuran Perlembagaan
Kedaulatan Undang-undang
Kesopanan dan Kesusilaan



Let's dissect the Rukun Negara line-by-line by examining its implications if you disobey.

Kepercayaan Kepada Tuhan - it's not in the law nor the Constitution. But if you question too loudly why Malaysia is a Muslim state (fundamentalist, according to Dr. M), you may end up in jail.

Kesetiaan Kepada Raja dan Negara - ok, you can be charged as an enemy combatant (or whatever else they term it) if you fight against Malaysia (like the terrorist who took up arms). In fact, Tun Salleh Abbas, former Lord President, was sacked by Mahathir on reason of insulting the King (but of course, the real reason is that he didn't support Mahathir during the 1988 UMNO crisis).

Keluhuran Perlembagaan & Kedaulatan Undang-undang - Well, you can not believe in the constitution and law, but if you're in legal trouble, too bad, you have to argue by the law. Otherwise, off to gaol you go.

Kesopanan dan Kesusilaan - Ahh, that depends, in fact it helps to not b e polite all the time. Maybe your teachers and parents may slap you for being rude, but being polite to everyone all the time guarantees that you will never rise to the top. The reason being your ideas will often be challenge and defending them is crucial. Try being polite and defend your ideas and you'll often end up with a weak argument. Have you seen a top debater who is polite during debates?

[chiunlin]

being polite to everyone all the time guarantees that you will never rise to the top. The reason being your ideas will often be challenge and defending them is crucial. Try being polite and defend your ideas and you'll often end up with a weak argument. Have you seen a top debater who is polite during debates?

Now, I do not agree with you here. I think it all depends on how you define the word polite. In defending ideas, what we need is a convincing argument with much support and proof and not personal attacks or rude or obscene languages.

Anyway, the original religion in China is confucianisme and taoisme. Different emperors ranked these religions differently during different dynasties. Then came Buddhism, which according to the original teaching, is supposed to be atheistic or agnostic. Buddha did not proclaim himself to be a god nor did he say that god existed.

So, back to the same old question, Kepercayaan kepada Tuhan. I think that why make a fuss? Is it that important to clear this matter up? Personally i think it will create an uproar in the society if we really wish to deal with it. This will only lead ot conflict and discord. Nobody benefits if it is removed, save perhaps future students need to recite one sentence less. It is just like we INTEC students have to study Islam(they out the course as ethics, to make it sound nicer) whether we like it or not.

[topdog]

So, back to the same old question, Kepercayaan kepada Tuhan. I think that why make a fuss?

That's exactly what I said...

why is this even an issue? are we just trying to emulate the US here?

geesh...do we have nothing else to worry about other than whether the rukun negara violates our personal beliefs on the existence/non-existence of a superior being?!

[jiinjoo]

why is this even an issue? are we just trying to emulate the US here?

Emulate no, learn from yes. This is not and should not be a "big" issue as things stand. The reason I say we should learn is that we see how powerful the constitution of the US has been is shaping the nation. It is simply fantastic (or at least to me) that a nation can be so diverse and so dynamic and so humongous, and yet the entire nation is binded by the very same believe that every human being should live and breath freedom, that liberty and equality is worth dying for. This is the fundamental believe and a shared vision for the country and I think Malaysia is lacking such a binding power. In the days of our founding fathers we talk about independence, later we talk about racial harmony, and then about economic prosperity, but what's the hallmark of our country? Whatever it is, it is not this 5 lines.

And btw this forum is exactly how we don't "make a fuss" but look at the problem in a scholarly manner.

Somehow from this discussion, I get a itchy feeling that it might be better to recite vision 2020 (in a simpler form maybe... currently too long) than to recite rukun negara... might be more "practical"...

As to prince's comments - I think it is a fair statement that you make that kesopanan and kesusilaan is not a necessity. Let's just say if we left that out people like me would really have nothing to believe in liao...

Oh ya, welcome back Shien Jin :)

[topdog]

[quote]...This is the fundamental believe and a shared vision for the country and I think Malaysia is lacking such a binding power. In the days of our founding fathers we talk about independence, later we talk about racial harmony, and then about economic prosperity, but what's the hallmark of our country? Whatever it is, it is not this 5 lines.

that makes sense, the way you put it.

i apologize if i sounded brash in my earlier post. i think i've made my opinion on debating the merits of that first line in the rukun negara clear enough, so i will stay away from further discussion on this matter.

cheers:)

... I think Malaysia is lacking such a binding power. In the days of our founding fathers we talk about independence, later we talk about racial harmony, and then about economic prosperity, but what's the hallmark of our country? Whatever it is, it is not this 5 lines.



Hmm...interesting question. What should Malaysia stand for as a nation?
Any suggestions?

Do keep in mind that the idea of liberty and freedom, and that all man are created equal has been in the Declaration of Independence, but until today, racial inequality still plagues the US. Even after the liberation of slaves by Abraham Lincoln, it took more than a hundred years before African-Americans and other minorities were trully free to attend universities, sit in restaurants, access to public funding etc.

Therefore, I propose that Malaysia should strive for racial equality and integration into a truly Malaysian society, where all Malaysians are created equal and be granted equal priviledges regardless of race, color, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, religion, disability, age, ancestry, or national or ethnic origin (from MIT's nondiscrimination policy book). Quite a sentence.

Although this seems next to impossible in the near future (since BN relies on racial division to win the elections, and Malaysians accepting gays :? ), we should nevertheless strive to push the systems towards that objective.

Am I seeing any progress over the past 50 years? Unfortunately not much.

[masterof_none]

I think we have to go back to the history of how were Persekutuan Tanah Melayu being created and how the Malayan Union were being rejected by the Malays at that time.

After the failure of Malayan Union (http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Malayan-Union), UMNO, being a powerful political party at that time intervene in shaping the constitution, which give the "special right" status to the Malays, and granted the citizenship to the races brought by British. including Chinese, Indian, etc.

That was long time ago where the Malays still could not accept the fact that the Chinese and Indians were actually there and played important roles in the whole British administration

back to the question on the table :
I think, this is the stage of maturation of our nation, being formed after British left the country



... I think Malaysia is lacking such a binding power. In the days of our founding fathers we talk about independence,


There are so many conflict of interest during the formation of Persekutuan Tanah Melayu . .
and UMNO, trying to defend the idea that "this land own by the Malays", came up with the idea of forming the National Front,
"One party fits all" party, being the Malays as a leader of all party members.


later we talk about racial harmony,



After we are free from British, then only we can see how can we , as the newly formed society , can work together to build the nation


and then about economic prosperity, but what's the hallmark of our country? Whatever it is, it is not this 5 lines.


I think, this is just stages of maturation of a former colony nation like Malaysia, which, just like other nations being colonized, has been very hard to integrate. just look at Indonesia,how hard for them to integrate their society after the Dutch occupation. the huge nation (geographical aspect ) of the nation make thing worst.

Compared to some other states like the US, it was form out of ideaology,
people who protest against corrupt churces in Europe, Malaysia was formed to free ourselves from British occupation.

I think Dr M has laid a very good foundation for us Malaysians to achieve, that is Vision 2020. if you look at the 9 challanges, I think, that's what he think what Malaysia would evolves.

I don't think we need to copy the US to stand as a nation, but, we must study our own society and come up with the formula that suit our context.

And, this, indirectly refer to resolving the conflict of interest that has been posed by the author of this thread, whether we must believe in God
in order to be a Malaysian.

the word God, being written in the Rukunegara, of course, as a result of the Malays dominance in shaping the rukunegara itself.
Just like why the American citizens has to do the pledge when they were in school.That's because of the Caucasian-Christian dominance in shaping the country. But, American practice religious tolerence. and so do Malaysia. (and now, we wonder why our flag also looks like American flag ;-) ) .

There's no quick solution to this.(even in the US, when a father challange the government that the pledge is unconstitutional, there were a strong rejection from the lawmakers when the court decided so.)
So, to conclude, let's read this news..and predict what's going to happen if your remove the word God from Rukunegara.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/06/26/pledge.allegiance/

[__earth]

Am I seeing any progress over the past 50 years? Unfortunately not much.

Actually you saw a lot. Remember, the US took more the 300 years to acheive where it is now. Malaysia on the other hand is not even 50.
At least today, there is more racial tolerance than what you would see 50 years ago.

[luke]

At least today, there is more racial tolerance than what you would see 50 years ago.
That's true but actually the peak of our racial tolerance was immediately after we achieve "kemerdekaan" (independence) ... this is what I heard from the old folks where people around my grandfather's generation used to call their friends by race like "hey Melayu ... hey Cina .. hey India" and they were not even offended ... maybe because of the aftereffect of the strugglings to free this land from the colonization of British, the unity and strong bond among people at that time was so strong that being addressed by racial identity didn't make people feel offended. Instead, I believe it made them prouder for their identities ... this is actually what we should aim for; the golden age of our racial tolerance ... then, came the tragedy of 13 May and suddenly the level of tolerance dropped .. now we are still recovering from the effect of it ..