Gay Marriage

[__earth]

Frist Vows Senate Will Block Gay Marriages
(Reuters) - U.S. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist vowed on Thursday that the Senate would block any effort to legalize same-sex marriage, a day after Massachusetts' top court ruled the state must allow homosexuals to wed. "I want to be very clear. We reject intolerance, we reject hatred. We must treat all our fellow citizens with civility and kindness," Frist, a Tennessee Republican, said in speech on the Senate floor. "But marriage should not be redefined by the courts and we in this body can't let it, we won't let it."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/fc?cid=34&tmpl=fc&in=World&cat=Gays_and_Lesbians

I believe in the separation between the state and the church or the mosque or anything. I believe in freedom. So, by logic, I should be supporting the gay because the idea is about exercising freedom.
However, i found it disconcerting. something must have gone wrong in my train of thought. somebody, help!

just a note, i don't support the homo movement.

[__earth]

Frist Vows Senate Will Block Gay Marriages
(Reuters) - U.S. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist vowed on Thursday that the Senate would block any effort to legalize same-sex marriage, a day after Massachusetts' top court ruled the state must allow homosexuals to wed. "I want to be very clear. We reject intolerance, we reject hatred. We must treat all our fellow citizens with civility and kindness," Frist, a Tennessee Republican, said in speech on the Senate floor. "But marriage should not be redefined by the courts and we in this body can't let it, we won't let it."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/fc?cid=34&tmpl=fc&in=World&cat=Gays_and_Lesbians

I believe in the separation between the state and the church or the mosque or anything. I believe in freedom. So, by logic, I should be supporting the gay because the idea is about exercising freedom.
However, i found it disconcerting. something must have gone wrong in my train of thought. somebody, help!

just a note, i don't support the homo movement.

[Thirdshifter]

Gay marriage, Maybe the term marriage should be re-analyzed. In USA, being married equals to HUGE TAX BREAK!. It would only make sense to let Same-sex Union/Marriage to not discriminate this minority.

we have to let this happen, The world is growing smaller everyday. The culture.Religion Clash has happened. The majority of People cherish freedom then fearing God.

Like a democracy, Majority rules.

[Thirdshifter]

Gay marriage, Maybe the term marriage should be re-analyzed. In USA, being married equals to HUGE TAX BREAK!. It would only make sense to let Same-sex Union/Marriage to not discriminate this minority.

we have to let this happen, The world is growing smaller everyday. The culture.Religion Clash has happened. The majority of People cherish freedom then fearing God.

Like a democracy, Majority rules.

[z]

while i don't fervently support the movement, i have nothing against it either.

as long as the legislation will not impose any negative effects on people's daily lives, i don't see why there's a need to block such an attempt.

but then again, why the need to legislate same-sex unions? i guess we won't really understand unless we're in that situation.

seems like it's fundamentally state-and-church matter.

[z]

while i don't fervently support the movement, i have nothing against it either.

as long as the legislation will not impose any negative effects on people's daily lives, i don't see why there's a need to block such an attempt.

but then again, why the need to legislate same-sex unions? i guess we won't really understand unless we're in that situation.

seems like it's fundamentally state-and-church matter.

[Thirdshifter]

Or.. Or... Eliminate the advantage Married couples get? this would definately kill the purpose! anyway i wonder why Gay couples actually awnt to get married. I thought they know better. Marriage? LMAO.

[Thirdshifter]

Or.. Or... Eliminate the advantage Married couples get? this would definately kill the purpose! anyway i wonder why Gay couples actually awnt to get married. I thought they know better. Marriage? LMAO.

[z]

i guess the benefits are a perk to get married.

perhaps they feel that marriage is a fundamental human right and that they shouldn't be discriminated against?

anyone wanna come out of the closet and share your insights?
or anyone wanna speak for their friend's friend's friend?

[z]

i guess the benefits are a perk to get married.

perhaps they feel that marriage is a fundamental human right and that they shouldn't be discriminated against?

anyone wanna come out of the closet and share your insights?
or anyone wanna speak for their friend's friend's friend?

[wwhong]

basically i m not against gay marriage even though i think that's disgusting. imagine 2 guys holding hands. i had seen a muscular gay couple holding hands and walking around, that just make me sick. oh well, that's off topic. however, i think their right should be respected as well. just because we can't accept gay doesn't mean it's a bad thing, maybe for them heterosexuals are weird as well. as long as they follow the law, i dun see any real big negative impacts to the society.

[wwhong]

basically i m not against gay marriage even though i think that's disgusting. imagine 2 guys holding hands. i had seen a muscular gay couple holding hands and walking around, that just make me sick. oh well, that's off topic. however, i think their right should be respected as well. just because we can't accept gay doesn't mean it's a bad thing, maybe for them heterosexuals are weird as well. as long as they follow the law, i dun see any real big negative impacts to the society.

[__earth]

i think its negative because, if everybody is gay, Human will be listed on the UNESCO's endangered species. 8) (it's just a joke)

refering to thirdshifter, yeah you are right. it has been suggested but that in turn would sideline the "normal" couple, which is the majority. so, we are kinda trapped in the circular logic.

so far, i can't find any logical premise to go against gay marriage and that troubles me. The only reason i'm against it is because of religion. but i believe that is irrational and not a concrete reason (in spite of saying this, i still believe in God - no blasphemy accusation please).

[__earth]

i think its negative because, if everybody is gay, Human will be listed on the UNESCO's endangered species. 8) (it's just a joke)

refering to thirdshifter, yeah you are right. it has been suggested but that in turn would sideline the "normal" couple, which is the majority. so, we are kinda trapped in the circular logic.

so far, i can't find any logical premise to go against gay marriage and that troubles me. The only reason i'm against it is because of religion. but i believe that is irrational and not a concrete reason (in spite of saying this, i still believe in God - no blasphemy accusation please).

[Thirdshifter]

(in spite of saying this, i still believe in God - no blasphemy accusation please).

Aku harap hang akan kembali ke pangkal jalan. Jalan yang benar.. insaf la :D

[Thirdshifter]

(in spite of saying this, i still believe in God - no blasphemy accusation please).

Aku harap hang akan kembali ke pangkal jalan. Jalan yang benar.. insaf la :D

[wawa]

Does it have a negative effect on society, especilly when these types of marriage increase in numbers?
Men and women compliment each other...imagine your dad and mom are both men~! :roll: :roll: :roll:
what effect would it have on the child when he sees that other people's 'MOM" is a 'LADY'??
:?: :?:

[wawa]

Does it have a negative effect on society, especilly when these types of marriage increase in numbers?
Men and women compliment each other...imagine your dad and mom are both men~! :roll: :roll: :roll:
what effect would it have on the child when he sees that other people's 'MOM" is a 'LADY'??
:?: :?:

[Schye]

anyone wanna come out of the closet and share your insights?
or anyone wanna speak for their friend's friend's friend?
Well, i have some gay friends but i am not here to speak for them but to comment on the issue.

what effect would it have on the child when he sees that other people's 'MOM" is a 'LADY'??
I think this will only be a problem when they adopt a child or are having someone to have babies for them ... which i think both of them will be DAD :P

basically i m not against gay marriage even though i think that's disgusting. imagine 2 guys holding hands. i had seen a muscular gay couple holding hands and walking around, that just make me sick.
hahah... then dont look at them :)


anyway i wonder why Gay couples actually awnt to get married. I thought they know better. Marriage? LMAO.

I think the reason that they want to get married is the same as normal heterosexual human ... why should we get married except to have a child legally (I mean in common which can be implied to all)
However, I think that the main reason behind is an EQUAL right with others or want to live like normal human in the world.
So basically I am not against it.

[Schye]

anyone wanna come out of the closet and share your insights?
or anyone wanna speak for their friend's friend's friend?
Well, i have some gay friends but i am not here to speak for them but to comment on the issue.

what effect would it have on the child when he sees that other people's 'MOM" is a 'LADY'??
I think this will only be a problem when they adopt a child or are having someone to have babies for them ... which i think both of them will be DAD :P

basically i m not against gay marriage even though i think that's disgusting. imagine 2 guys holding hands. i had seen a muscular gay couple holding hands and walking around, that just make me sick.
hahah... then dont look at them :)


anyway i wonder why Gay couples actually awnt to get married. I thought they know better. Marriage? LMAO.

I think the reason that they want to get married is the same as normal heterosexual human ... why should we get married except to have a child legally (I mean in common which can be implied to all)
However, I think that the main reason behind is an EQUAL right with others or want to live like normal human in the world.
So basically I am not against it.

[jiinjoo]

i had seen a muscular gay couple holding hands and walking around, that just make me sick.
haha :D I'm sorry you only see the not-so-appealing ones. Maybe you should try dropping by a gay bar some day (hey, this is all about getting "exposure" from your overseas education/stint right.....), and you'll probably see some others.

maybe for them heterosexuals are weird as well.
That's an interesting question. I don't think they usually feel that way (not to discount those who do, but I think they are the minority). But still, we need someone to confirm this, as well as some official statistics.

To the best of MY understanding (hehehe), gays (or les), especially closet ones, are pretty upset / confuse that they couldn't derive the same pleasure when they hang out with the opposite sex, as when they hang out with the same sex. And please, this has nothing to do with going to bed and all yet, it is just the feeling you get going out with this "guy", whom you sort of "like", maybe you enjoy just the company (chat, go movies), or some more intimate ones (hold hands, kiss). But it takes two to be a couple, so I guess let it be.

Does it have a negative effect on society, especilly when these types of marriage increase in numbers? what effect would it have on the child when he sees that other people's 'MOM" is a 'LADY'??
It depends. Some your upbringing tells you that in this world, there are many types of parents, most are made out of male female, while others are male male, female female, single male, single female, none, wild bears, martians etc. you probably can accept it much better. You can potentially set up special environments to help the kid cope. Just like an orphanage - they learn that they don't have parents. Bad analogy, but I'm just stating the possibility for the society to help, instead of outcast.

Don't worry, it will take a few more decades before this discussion hits our country's law makers. Sometimes, it is better to be conservative at making the law, yet flexible enough to let everyone live happily ever after.


One interesting question though - what if you found out that your own son / daughter is a gay / les? Would you encourage / discourage / rehabilitate / help / punish / publicize etc.? Would you even go for their wedding ceremony? :D

[jiinjoo]

i had seen a muscular gay couple holding hands and walking around, that just make me sick.
haha :D I'm sorry you only see the not-so-appealing ones. Maybe you should try dropping by a gay bar some day (hey, this is all about getting "exposure" from your overseas education/stint right.....), and you'll probably see some others.

maybe for them heterosexuals are weird as well.
That's an interesting question. I don't think they usually feel that way (not to discount those who do, but I think they are the minority). But still, we need someone to confirm this, as well as some official statistics.

To the best of MY understanding (hehehe), gays (or les), especially closet ones, are pretty upset / confuse that they couldn't derive the same pleasure when they hang out with the opposite sex, as when they hang out with the same sex. And please, this has nothing to do with going to bed and all yet, it is just the feeling you get going out with this "guy", whom you sort of "like", maybe you enjoy just the company (chat, go movies), or some more intimate ones (hold hands, kiss). But it takes two to be a couple, so I guess let it be.

Does it have a negative effect on society, especilly when these types of marriage increase in numbers? what effect would it have on the child when he sees that other people's 'MOM" is a 'LADY'??
It depends. Some your upbringing tells you that in this world, there are many types of parents, most are made out of male female, while others are male male, female female, single male, single female, none, wild bears, martians etc. you probably can accept it much better. You can potentially set up special environments to help the kid cope. Just like an orphanage - they learn that they don't have parents. Bad analogy, but I'm just stating the possibility for the society to help, instead of outcast.

Don't worry, it will take a few more decades before this discussion hits our country's law makers. Sometimes, it is better to be conservative at making the law, yet flexible enough to let everyone live happily ever after.


One interesting question though - what if you found out that your own son / daughter is a gay / les? Would you encourage / discourage / rehabilitate / help / punish / publicize etc.? Would you even go for their wedding ceremony? :D

[DecentMerson]

izzit really seeing guys (gays couple) very common in the states??? as common as you see straight couples in Malaysia???

or it is still quite conservatif??? relatively to what i think coz I think I'm ok with Homosexuality!! :roll:

[DecentMerson]

izzit really seeing guys (gays couple) very common in the states??? as common as you see straight couples in Malaysia???

or it is still quite conservatif??? relatively to what i think coz I think I'm ok with Homosexuality!! :roll:

[jiinjoo]

izzit really seeing guys (gays couple) very common in the states??? as common as you see straight couples in Malaysia???
Interesting question. I haven't "seen" one back home, don't think a public display of affection of hetrosexuals are very much welcomed, what more homosexuals...

In the states, most cities have this area where gays (wlog, by gays I mean all the "queer" people, as they are respectably known as...) hang out. Fortunately (and unfortunately, as argued by others), I'm pretty close to a city best known for the largest "nest" of gay people, i.e. Castro in San Francisco. I wasn't fortunate enough to attend the big Halloween parade, but I do know friends who have first hand experience being picked-up by some, or just got a good spank in the behind... (it's a compliment) Another one that I frequently go eat is Capitol Hill in Seattle.

But I digressed :) These queer areas usually have the rainbow flags all around. And more often than not, you'll spot one or two of those "muscular gays holding hands" scenario thingy. Otherwise, these parts of the city are just like other town with the usual services, with a little more emphasis on gay market stuff. Beyond these parts of the city, you don't usually find gays on the street - perhaps randomly - that's all. To me, it's just typical of most big American cities, Chinatown, Gay district, Black area, Jewish settlement, etc. etc. people have their special place, and these speciality are cherished very much by the city council (for their tourism value?).

Therefore it is not "common" everywhere, but if you come from tempurung district you can definitely make a trip to certain corners of the town to satisfy your curiosity.

DecentMerson, I heard Geylang is trying to grow that industry too, why don't you take a weekend of and go there on Saturday night?

if they want it, it has to be through the normal mean.
nobody deserve what they don't work for. and that's equal rights.
I see you eye to eye on this one. But to me it is just a compationate feeling towards gay couples. In fact, there are incidents whereby a man divorsed his wife and married another man because he couldn't stand being with a female. He would have worked for a kid if he could. I believe there has already been institutionalized mechanisms to prevent gays from getting all the orphans, that you can be sure. However, couples get old and they need care and affection from someone. They are willing to give their time to bring up an otherwise homeless child. How much more do you want to ostracize them?

[jiinjoo]

izzit really seeing guys (gays couple) very common in the states??? as common as you see straight couples in Malaysia???
Interesting question. I haven't "seen" one back home, don't think a public display of affection of hetrosexuals are very much welcomed, what more homosexuals...

In the states, most cities have this area where gays (wlog, by gays I mean all the "queer" people, as they are respectably known as...) hang out. Fortunately (and unfortunately, as argued by others), I'm pretty close to a city best known for the largest "nest" of gay people, i.e. Castro in San Francisco. I wasn't fortunate enough to attend the big Halloween parade, but I do know friends who have first hand experience being picked-up by some, or just got a good spank in the behind... (it's a compliment) Another one that I frequently go eat is Capitol Hill in Seattle.

But I digressed :) These queer areas usually have the rainbow flags all around. And more often than not, you'll spot one or two of those "muscular gays holding hands" scenario thingy. Otherwise, these parts of the city are just like other town with the usual services, with a little more emphasis on gay market stuff. Beyond these parts of the city, you don't usually find gays on the street - perhaps randomly - that's all. To me, it's just typical of most big American cities, Chinatown, Gay district, Black area, Jewish settlement, etc. etc. people have their special place, and these speciality are cherished very much by the city council (for their tourism value?).

Therefore it is not "common" everywhere, but if you come from tempurung district you can definitely make a trip to certain corners of the town to satisfy your curiosity.

DecentMerson, I heard Geylang is trying to grow that industry too, why don't you take a weekend of and go there on Saturday night?

if they want it, it has to be through the normal mean.
nobody deserve what they don't work for. and that's equal rights.
I see you eye to eye on this one. But to me it is just a compationate feeling towards gay couples. In fact, there are incidents whereby a man divorsed his wife and married another man because he couldn't stand being with a female. He would have worked for a kid if he could. I believe there has already been institutionalized mechanisms to prevent gays from getting all the orphans, that you can be sure. However, couples get old and they need care and affection from someone. They are willing to give their time to bring up an otherwise homeless child. How much more do you want to ostracize them?

[dinna_g]

izzit really seeing guys (gays couple) very common in the states??? as common as you see straight couples in Malaysia???

It's not THAT common.. but you can see gay couples at some point of your life in the states.. or if you're not observant, you won't see any.. hehe..

anyways, i'm against gay marriage because i'm a woman! if there's many gay wedding, then what'll happen to the women? Urgh... I need straight men around me.. hehehe.. it's really frustrating to see good looking gay guys..

[dinna_g]

izzit really seeing guys (gays couple) very common in the states??? as common as you see straight couples in Malaysia???

It's not THAT common.. but you can see gay couples at some point of your life in the states.. or if you're not observant, you won't see any.. hehe..

anyways, i'm against gay marriage because i'm a woman! if there's many gay wedding, then what'll happen to the women? Urgh... I need straight men around me.. hehehe.. it's really frustrating to see good looking gay guys..

[__earth]

gay marriage means homo mariage. there's lesbo marriage too.
it's not just your problem. The human species will be in trouble if everybody refuses to breed properly.

[__earth]

gay marriage means homo mariage. there's lesbo marriage too.
it's not just your problem. The human species will be in trouble if everybody refuses to breed properly.

[qedx]

they're gay, they wont breed even if they dont marry :/ so whats the problem?

[qedx]

they're gay, they wont breed even if they dont marry :/ so whats the problem?

[wwhong]

earth, dun worry the heterosexuals are still the absolute majority.

i think the problem boils down to the difinition of marriage. Marriage by definition should be between a man and a woman and suppose to have children and normal sex life. Gay and lesbian marriage totally out from the definition and i think that's why people are so angry. if not, what the hell have to do with you if a gay or lesbian couple get married? will they spread aids around if they get married? will they commit crime if they married? will the god punish the whole human race because of that? will u be affected if they get married?

[wwhong]

earth, dun worry the heterosexuals are still the absolute majority.

i think the problem boils down to the difinition of marriage. Marriage by definition should be between a man and a woman and suppose to have children and normal sex life. Gay and lesbian marriage totally out from the definition and i think that's why people are so angry. if not, what the hell have to do with you if a gay or lesbian couple get married? will they spread aids around if they get married? will they commit crime if they married? will the god punish the whole human race because of that? will u be affected if they get married?

[__earth]

earth, dun worry the heterosexuals are still the absolute majority.

it was a joke man.

[__earth]

earth, dun worry the heterosexuals are still the absolute majority.

it was a joke man.

[DecentMerson]

ok..... at least it is not that scary.... :?

[DecentMerson]

ok..... at least it is not that scary.... :?

[hungwei]

Hey hey, this is what i call human evolution....from homo sapiens to God knows what.
By the way, what causes gay relationships? Changes in biological make-up or are they bored of the opposite sex already?

[hungwei]

Hey hey, this is what i call human evolution....from homo sapiens to God knows what.
By the way, what causes gay relationships? Changes in biological make-up or are they bored of the opposite sex already?

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

I believe in fundamental human freedom. No state should impose such limitation in human's fundamental freedom--choosing his/her own life partner.

Opposing legal marriage is like not treating gay people as our equal human beings. Our history is already full of oppression against the minorities--the blacks, the women, the whatever....why do we want to continue this regression of human mind??

regarding religion, i respect the views of EACH religion. However i do not agree on imposing one religion's ideals in EVERYONE's lives. Religion is something individual; it's not our right to tell people to abide by "our" rules or whatsoever. If we want to oppose gay marriage because of religion, THEN-- DIVORCE and ABORTION and whatever birth control should be illegalized first. coz they equally so-called "violate the sanctity of life and the traditional definition of marriage as a monogamous relationship between a man and a woman".

Gay couples should be given EXACTLY the same right as any heterosexual couple. It's a matter of recognizing the equality of other human being. It's a matter of having a compassionate and tolerating heart.

whoever argues about the "normality" of such a thing--i am not a "normality" scientist, i cannot have a say of what's normal and what is not. Sometimes human beings tend to become "normalized" by the norms. Eg: we use war to solve "problems". as we do it more, we look at it as a norm. For me , war is a sign of human's inability to become civilized. there are plants of same sex that breed with each other.. There are ALL KINDS of variations in everything in this world. including human beings... why do we want to oppress those who are different from us?

someone dont understand why gay wanna get married...i don't understand why? it's like a matter of why our parents want to get married so that they are ensured certain rights, eg: right to inherit each's properties, right to visit each other in hospital when one is ill....


I am sick of any kind of discrimination and oppression. No more oppression. Let's treat each other as "full human".. I sincerely appeal...

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

I believe in fundamental human freedom. No state should impose such limitation in human's fundamental freedom--choosing his/her own life partner.

Opposing legal marriage is like not treating gay people as our equal human beings. Our history is already full of oppression against the minorities--the blacks, the women, the whatever....why do we want to continue this regression of human mind??

regarding religion, i respect the views of EACH religion. However i do not agree on imposing one religion's ideals in EVERYONE's lives. Religion is something individual; it's not our right to tell people to abide by "our" rules or whatsoever. If we want to oppose gay marriage because of religion, THEN-- DIVORCE and ABORTION and whatever birth control should be illegalized first. coz they equally so-called "violate the sanctity of life and the traditional definition of marriage as a monogamous relationship between a man and a woman".

Gay couples should be given EXACTLY the same right as any heterosexual couple. It's a matter of recognizing the equality of other human being. It's a matter of having a compassionate and tolerating heart.

whoever argues about the "normality" of such a thing--i am not a "normality" scientist, i cannot have a say of what's normal and what is not. Sometimes human beings tend to become "normalized" by the norms. Eg: we use war to solve "problems". as we do it more, we look at it as a norm. For me , war is a sign of human's inability to become civilized. there are plants of same sex that breed with each other.. There are ALL KINDS of variations in everything in this world. including human beings... why do we want to oppress those who are different from us?

someone dont understand why gay wanna get married...i don't understand why? it's like a matter of why our parents want to get married so that they are ensured certain rights, eg: right to inherit each's properties, right to visit each other in hospital when one is ill....


I am sick of any kind of discrimination and oppression. No more oppression. Let's treat each other as "full human".. I sincerely appeal...

[littlebigone]

I praying for the next amendment so that I can now marry my guitar.....mmmmmmm :lol:

[littlebigone]

I praying for the next amendment so that I can now marry my guitar.....mmmmmmm :lol:

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

by the way, when i say "gay marriage", i mean homosexual marriage.... no offense to lesbians... haha :)

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

by the way, when i say "gay marriage", i mean homosexual marriage.... no offense to lesbians... haha :)

[__earth]

how about civil union? I think gay should be granted civil union instead of marriage. marriage should be reserved for hetero- couple

i know its totally a PC thingy but i would love to differentiate the terms civil union and marriage.

[__earth]

how about civil union? I think gay should be granted civil union instead of marriage. marriage should be reserved for hetero- couple

i know its totally a PC thingy but i would love to differentiate the terms civil union and marriage.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

what makes such a difference?

It's like why is there a church specifically for blacks and a restaurant specifically for the whites in the past? it's matter of people couldn't open up and be accepting.

like in the past, inter-racial marriage was considered illegal by constitution/law. Now, as people become more "awaked", it's no longer illegal.

so now, the same thing happened again; it's just that the term "skin color" is changed to "sexual preference".

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

what makes such a difference?

It's like why is there a church specifically for blacks and a restaurant specifically for the whites in the past? it's matter of people couldn't open up and be accepting.

like in the past, inter-racial marriage was considered illegal by constitution/law. Now, as people become more "awaked", it's no longer illegal.

so now, the same thing happened again; it's just that the term "skin color" is changed to "sexual preference".

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

no more imperialism... it's not up to us, the so-called "heterosexual" majority to determine the lives of those who are different from us.

the imperialism era was over...when malaysia is colonialized by the British... it's imperialism by "nation"..

Discrimination against women was over....(well, there are still in some ways...worse in some countries) It's imperialism by "gender"..

Discrimination against skin color was over (at least in the process in the US.. it's imperialism by "skin color"..

now new forms of imperialism are in the making... it's just a matter of the scale...it's just a matter of imperialism on those sexual minorities group...

it's time we give space to those who have in the whole human history live under oppression, misunderstanding, and rejection just because they choose to love what they love.

funny right??? being discriminate because of LOVE...how ironical..

(sorry if i, in any way, sound offensive to any party who has different views. I am just being honest and as idealistic as I am... I am just a believer of compassion, equality, universal love...)

may everyone be well and at peace! this is what i have been reciting everyday...

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

no more imperialism... it's not up to us, the so-called "heterosexual" majority to determine the lives of those who are different from us.

the imperialism era was over...when malaysia is colonialized by the British... it's imperialism by "nation"..

Discrimination against women was over....(well, there are still in some ways...worse in some countries) It's imperialism by "gender"..

Discrimination against skin color was over (at least in the process in the US.. it's imperialism by "skin color"..

now new forms of imperialism are in the making... it's just a matter of the scale...it's just a matter of imperialism on those sexual minorities group...

it's time we give space to those who have in the whole human history live under oppression, misunderstanding, and rejection just because they choose to love what they love.

funny right??? being discriminate because of LOVE...how ironical..

(sorry if i, in any way, sound offensive to any party who has different views. I am just being honest and as idealistic as I am... I am just a believer of compassion, equality, universal love...)

may everyone be well and at peace! this is what i have been reciting everyday...

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

also, if we want to follow the logic of so-called "normalism" and "naturalism", haha then maybe we should deny the rights of those people who are born deaf/ blind/ whatever / disabled since they are not the same as majority...
since they are "minority" and "different" from the "normal" majority, we should not grant them equal rights. Coz the fact that i am born without any disability doe MAKE me MORE superior than others. haha.

(i dont wanna jump into this, really, though, coz it's not that parralell and example either...it's like equalizing homosexuals and disabled....hahah maybe i, by now, am already condemned by the homosexuals....oops!)

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

also, if we want to follow the logic of so-called "normalism" and "naturalism", haha then maybe we should deny the rights of those people who are born deaf/ blind/ whatever / disabled since they are not the same as majority...
since they are "minority" and "different" from the "normal" majority, we should not grant them equal rights. Coz the fact that i am born without any disability doe MAKE me MORE superior than others. haha.

(i dont wanna jump into this, really, though, coz it's not that parralell and example either...it's like equalizing homosexuals and disabled....hahah maybe i, by now, am already condemned by the homosexuals....oops!)

[Diesel]

damn this is exactly the topic for my writing paper which is due in a week. i still can't decide my stance yet.
yes, i hate homosexuality. i hate gays. i think they are disgusting. and i dont think any religion should be tweaked just to acknowledge gay marriage.
but in the US, the religious institution is saperated with the govt. so, i must say i support gay marriage, for the sake of human rights. but i strongly against adoption by gay couples. so, i think, they should have the rights to be legally married, except to adopt. maybe it's more like civil union. i donno. damn.

[Diesel]

damn this is exactly the topic for my writing paper which is due in a week. i still can't decide my stance yet.
yes, i hate homosexuality. i hate gays. i think they are disgusting. and i dont think any religion should be tweaked just to acknowledge gay marriage.
but in the US, the religious institution is saperated with the govt. so, i must say i support gay marriage, for the sake of human rights. but i strongly against adoption by gay couples. so, i think, they should have the rights to be legally married, except to adopt. maybe it's more like civil union. i donno. damn.

[littlebigone]

dude, chill. gays are happy people remember. I guess the important thing to remember is that they are people, even though they're happy, some more than others.

Anyway, I agree that religion should not be tweaked to suit any persons lifestyle but the govt should allow, since this is more an issue of rights than religion.

I don't get the part about adoption. Could you tell more?

[littlebigone]

dude, chill. gays are happy people remember. I guess the important thing to remember is that they are people, even though they're happy, some more than others.

Anyway, I agree that religion should not be tweaked to suit any persons lifestyle but the govt should allow, since this is more an issue of rights than religion.

I don't get the part about adoption. Could you tell more?

[Diesel]

they want to have the right to legally adopt children like hetrosexual married couples do.

[Diesel]

they want to have the right to legally adopt children like hetrosexual married couples do.

[littlebigone]

haha, yeah I got that part. Why don't you agree with that?

[littlebigone]

haha, yeah I got that part. Why don't you agree with that?

[Diesel]

even tough that being a gay is one's right in this country, i still believe it's immoral. it's bad, but it's your choice. no one can say no to you. but you should not bring innocent children into your world.
it's just like smoking. it's bad, but it's not wrong to do it, if you are above 18. but you should not encourage a minor to smoke. something like that. i donno how to explain. aargh, cammana nak tulis paper ni.

[Diesel]

even tough that being a gay is one's right in this country, i still believe it's immoral. it's bad, but it's your choice. no one can say no to you. but you should not bring innocent children into your world.
it's just like smoking. it's bad, but it's not wrong to do it, if you are above 18. but you should not encourage a minor to smoke. something like that. i donno how to explain. aargh, cammana nak tulis paper ni.

[Yeogolas]

What the crazy world, this is very bad busted ......
In one newspaper there are lesbian marrige....
In this question who is husband and who is wife............
If said women is wife they are same sex women and women ....

[Yeogolas]

What the crazy world, this is very bad busted ......
In one newspaper there are lesbian marrige....
In this question who is husband and who is wife............
If said women is wife they are same sex women and women ....

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

so finally it comes down to a "moral" issue. I believe that the definition of "morality" is social. It's the society that defines what's moral and what's not.

to me personally, it's only immoral when what one person has done has directly hurt other people. It doesn't hurt me when someone completely not related choose to love whoever he/she likes. Smoking is a different issue. When i smoke, it affects your health. Therefore i should not do that. When someone chooses his/her life partner, who are we to tell them: no , you should not do that coz it "hurt" me?

furthermore, legal marriage does not mean "promoting" homosexualism in the society. It's just about granting basic freedom to an individual. if one is born to love the opposite sex one will do so; if one is born to love the same sex no one can stop one either.

to me, i truly think the world will become better if we learn to just open our heart a little more. Just a little more.

too many wars/conflicts stem from the inability of people to just open up more.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

so finally it comes down to a "moral" issue. I believe that the definition of "morality" is social. It's the society that defines what's moral and what's not.

to me personally, it's only immoral when what one person has done has directly hurt other people. It doesn't hurt me when someone completely not related choose to love whoever he/she likes. Smoking is a different issue. When i smoke, it affects your health. Therefore i should not do that. When someone chooses his/her life partner, who are we to tell them: no , you should not do that coz it "hurt" me?

furthermore, legal marriage does not mean "promoting" homosexualism in the society. It's just about granting basic freedom to an individual. if one is born to love the opposite sex one will do so; if one is born to love the same sex no one can stop one either.

to me, i truly think the world will become better if we learn to just open our heart a little more. Just a little more.

too many wars/conflicts stem from the inability of people to just open up more.

[Yeogolas]

Who will goes to the paradise .. when this world want to 'kiamat'
lesbian and lesbian or gay and gay or the good person who love Jesus Christ.
There many couple of gay lesbian married when the valentine day....

[Yeogolas]

Who will goes to the paradise .. when this world want to 'kiamat'
lesbian and lesbian or gay and gay or the good person who love Jesus Christ.
There many couple of gay lesbian married when the valentine day....

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

what if one day we find our child is a homosexual, would we reject him/her because of him/her?

no one is born naturally immoral. It's just we who put a label on things. These people only want to love who they want. Don't oppress them because of their choice of love.

Religion, again, should not be used to either support/ oppose gay marriage. I do think it's one's freedom to choose his/her life partner.

eg: i am a buddhist...haha in buddhism, over sexual desire is considered something bad...regardless of whether u are hetero or homo....hahah so there's no such distinction of homo/hetero in buddhism

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

what if one day we find our child is a homosexual, would we reject him/her because of him/her?

no one is born naturally immoral. It's just we who put a label on things. These people only want to love who they want. Don't oppress them because of their choice of love.

Religion, again, should not be used to either support/ oppose gay marriage. I do think it's one's freedom to choose his/her life partner.

eg: i am a buddhist...haha in buddhism, over sexual desire is considered something bad...regardless of whether u are hetero or homo....hahah so there's no such distinction of homo/hetero in buddhism

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

dont worry about the paradise/hell issue. it's basically a very individual's belief... not everyone believe in these...so i hope there'll be no more patronizing religious views...sorry for the honesty.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

dont worry about the paradise/hell issue. it's basically a very individual's belief... not everyone believe in these...so i hope there'll be no more patronizing religious views...sorry for the honesty.

[Diesel]

i dont believe that anybody is born gay, although they always claim that they are born that way.

[Diesel]

i dont believe that anybody is born gay, although they always claim that they are born that way.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

to me, even if it's their choice, it's again, their freedom.
for me, i personally would not condemn a person just because he/she chooses to LOVE and to CARE for someone --a fact which does not hurt me at all.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

to me, even if it's their choice, it's again, their freedom.
for me, i personally would not condemn a person just because he/she chooses to LOVE and to CARE for someone --a fact which does not hurt me at all.

[Diesel]

well, i admit that i have prejudice against gays. but i do support marriage, as long as they are not allowed to adopt straight children.

[Diesel]

well, i admit that i have prejudice against gays. but i do support marriage, as long as they are not allowed to adopt straight children.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

that's great. I have seen some willingness to open up a little. :) I guess as gay people get more exposure to the public, we'll be able to understand them more. coz sometimes when we dont understand one thing, we tend to dismiss them as "bad" or whatever.

i guess there are still lots of things we have to learn in this world. I, too, do not want to jump too fast to any conclusion. I just hold on to a belief that-- ultimately, it's true compassion that really breaks down barriers between people. simple, that's it. :)

may all beings be well and peaceful!

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

that's great. I have seen some willingness to open up a little. :) I guess as gay people get more exposure to the public, we'll be able to understand them more. coz sometimes when we dont understand one thing, we tend to dismiss them as "bad" or whatever.

i guess there are still lots of things we have to learn in this world. I, too, do not want to jump too fast to any conclusion. I just hold on to a belief that-- ultimately, it's true compassion that really breaks down barriers between people. simple, that's it. :)

may all beings be well and peaceful!

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

also, thank you all for willing to share honestly what you believe in. This communication has allowed me to "open up" a little more of a variety of beliefs. haha. have fun!

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

also, thank you all for willing to share honestly what you believe in. This communication has allowed me to "open up" a little more of a variety of beliefs. haha. have fun!

[Diesel]

just out of curiosity. what would u do if you have a gay kid. how would u feel about it?

[Diesel]

just out of curiosity. what would u do if you have a gay kid. how would u feel about it?

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

hmmm

let me share what i feel. I will feel, honesly, nothing.. hahaha.. :p

i would wish he/she could find someone he/she loves (whether guy or girl)....or even if eventually he/she decide to be single and wanna become a monk/nun.....as long as he/she live a happy life.. that's all, as simple as that.hahahahaha....

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

hmmm

let me share what i feel. I will feel, honesly, nothing.. hahaha.. :p

i would wish he/she could find someone he/she loves (whether guy or girl)....or even if eventually he/she decide to be single and wanna become a monk/nun.....as long as he/she live a happy life.. that's all, as simple as that.hahahahaha....

[fish]

I support gay/ lesbian marriage. I think that some of them are born homosexual and some changed their sexual orientation when they are growing up. I believe that though a guy prefers another guy, he still experience the same love we feel in our normal guy and girl relationship. Therefore, if marriage is a sacred love ritual, I personally believe that homosexuals deserves to be recognized by marriage.

If I had a gay kid, I would love him as much as my other kids.

I think that it is OK for them to adopt kids as well. We see news about 'straight' parents abusing their kids, wheter physically or emotionally. In my opinion, some homosexuals can provide their adopted kids with more love than these people. Care, attention, love, other than physical items are what kids needs when they are growing up. Well, as long as the homosexual parent does not force their kids to have the same sexual orientation as them, in my opinion, it is alright for them to adopt kids too.

Some excerpts I got from eMedicine
(Some people are born homosexual-Biological Factors)

Twin studies show a higher concordance for homosexuality among homozygous twins (identical twins) than among heterozygous twins (fraternal twins). Among identical twins, concordance rates for homosexuality are reported in the range of 48-66%, which indicates that genetic factors most likely play a role but are not the only factors in the expression of homosexuality. Molecular linkage studies have suggested chromosomal regions that may be involved in conferring a susceptibility to homosexuality (eg, Xq28), but a specific gene has not yet been identified.

The hormonal environment in which a fetus develops clearly influences sexual anatomy and may have an influence on behavior. For example, prenatal androgens are required for the development of male external genitalia in genetically male fetuses. In animals, there are a number of clearly described behavioral consequences of intrauterine hormonal manipulations (Goy, 1980). For example, female rats exposed to increased androgens during fetal development show increased male-type mounting behavior as adults. The relevance of such findings to human behavior is unclear

Goy RW, McEwen BS: Sexual Differentiation of the Brain. Cambridge, Mass: MIT Press; 1980.


The findings also revealed a surprising degree of change over time. Ten percent of men, and nearly a quarter of women, reported same-sex attraction at any time, but this nearly halved for current attraction at age 26. The changes were not just in one direction. The instability was most marked for women, with a greater movement away from exclusively heterosexual attraction from age 21 to 26 than among men.
Much same-sex attraction is non-exclusive and unstable. (Dickson et al., 2003)

Dickson N., et al, Social Science & Medicine 56 (2003) 1607?1615

Therefore, the findings proof that some of the homosexuals are indeed born so(biological) while some are influenced by enviromental factors.

[fish]

I support gay/ lesbian marriage. I think that some of them are born homosexual and some changed their sexual orientation when they are growing up. I believe that though a guy prefers another guy, he still experience the same love we feel in our normal guy and girl relationship. Therefore, if marriage is a sacred love ritual, I personally believe that homosexuals deserves to be recognized by marriage.

If I had a gay kid, I would love him as much as my other kids.

I think that it is OK for them to adopt kids as well. We see news about 'straight' parents abusing their kids, wheter physically or emotionally. In my opinion, some homosexuals can provide their adopted kids with more love than these people. Care, attention, love, other than physical items are what kids needs when they are growing up. Well, as long as the homosexual parent does not force their kids to have the same sexual orientation as them, in my opinion, it is alright for them to adopt kids too.

Some excerpts I got from eMedicine
(Some people are born homosexual-Biological Factors)

Twin studies show a higher concordance for homosexuality among homozygous twins (identical twins) than among heterozygous twins (fraternal twins). Among identical twins, concordance rates for homosexuality are reported in the range of 48-66%, which indicates that genetic factors most likely play a role but are not the only factors in the expression of homosexuality. Molecular linkage studies have suggested chromosomal regions that may be involved in conferring a susceptibility to homosexuality (eg, Xq28), but a specific gene has not yet been identified.

The hormonal environment in which a fetus develops clearly influences sexual anatomy and may have an influence on behavior. For example, prenatal androgens are required for the development of male external genitalia in genetically male fetuses. In animals, there are a number of clearly described behavioral consequences of intrauterine hormonal manipulations (Goy, 1980). For example, female rats exposed to increased androgens during fetal development show increased male-type mounting behavior as adults. The relevance of such findings to human behavior is unclear

Goy RW, McEwen BS: Sexual Differentiation of the Brain. Cambridge, Mass: MIT Press; 1980.


The findings also revealed a surprising degree of change over time. Ten percent of men, and nearly a quarter of women, reported same-sex attraction at any time, but this nearly halved for current attraction at age 26. The changes were not just in one direction. The instability was most marked for women, with a greater movement away from exclusively heterosexual attraction from age 21 to 26 than among men.
Much same-sex attraction is non-exclusive and unstable. (Dickson et al., 2003)

Dickson N., et al, Social Science & Medicine 56 (2003) 1607?1615

Therefore, the findings proof that some of the homosexuals are indeed born so(biological) while some are influenced by enviromental factors.

[__earth]

I am not against gays. i do support human rights. but i don't support gay marriage because of meritocracy.

I mean, you have to work for certain things to get something. and gays, don't work for certain things. for instance, they want to marry. fine but i don't want them to have the means to have kids or tax relaxation.

Reason is, tax exemption is given to married couple to promote population growth. gays don't promote growth and that should be enough to refuse them certain rights the hetero couples usually receive.

Secondly, they cannot adopt kids. This is because they could have kids in the normal way. If they refuse to go through like what every ppl goes though, by merit, then gays should be refused the rights to adopt. Through point, I might be also against certain services provided sperm bank but that's another issue altogether.

also, if we want to follow the logic of so-called "normalism" and "naturalism", haha then maybe we should deny the rights of those people who are born deaf/ blind/ whatever / disabled since they are not the same as majority...

disabled people are different from gays. Gays are not disabled. They choose a path. fine. but when the path does not give the same benefits as the other path, they should not complain. disabled people however don't choose the path.

Gays need to realize that to every action, there are reactions.ome people deserve a right because they work for it. Rights do not come automatically.

In the end, its not about discrimination. It's about merit. It about everybody starting a fair race at the same line. If one chose to go in the opposite direction, and then wanted the claim the prize similiar reserved for the race participants that went in the right direction is illogical.

so finally it comes down to a "moral" issue. I believe that the definition of "morality" is social. It's the society that defines what's moral and what's not.

here, i agree with you. Moral is not an issue. Nobody has the rights to impose his/her moral on others. Religion should be an issue.
However, meritocracy not moral. in fact, meritocracy could be seen as a basis of democracy - democracy is not simply about human rights.

[__earth]

I am not against gays. i do support human rights. but i don't support gay marriage because of meritocracy.

I mean, you have to work for certain things to get something. and gays, don't work for certain things. for instance, they want to marry. fine but i don't want them to have the means to have kids or tax relaxation.

Reason is, tax exemption is given to married couple to promote population growth. gays don't promote growth and that should be enough to refuse them certain rights the hetero couples usually receive.

Secondly, they cannot adopt kids. This is because they could have kids in the normal way. If they refuse to go through like what every ppl goes though, by merit, then gays should be refused the rights to adopt. Through point, I might be also against certain services provided sperm bank but that's another issue altogether.

also, if we want to follow the logic of so-called "normalism" and "naturalism", haha then maybe we should deny the rights of those people who are born deaf/ blind/ whatever / disabled since they are not the same as majority...

disabled people are different from gays. Gays are not disabled. They choose a path. fine. but when the path does not give the same benefits as the other path, they should not complain. disabled people however don't choose the path.

Gays need to realize that to every action, there are reactions.ome people deserve a right because they work for it. Rights do not come automatically.

In the end, its not about discrimination. It's about merit. It about everybody starting a fair race at the same line. If one chose to go in the opposite direction, and then wanted the claim the prize similiar reserved for the race participants that went in the right direction is illogical.

so finally it comes down to a "moral" issue. I believe that the definition of "morality" is social. It's the society that defines what's moral and what's not.

here, i agree with you. Moral is not an issue. Nobody has the rights to impose his/her moral on others. Religion should be an issue.
However, meritocracy not moral. in fact, meritocracy could be seen as a basis of democracy - democracy is not simply about human rights.

[jiinjoo]

Wow, I really enjoyed the discussion so far - Shian Ling, you seem to be very passionate about this - will be wiilling to hear more. Diesel, good luck on your paper. If you're willing to step into some other person's shoes for a while and argue with your own beliefs, I think you'll produce an excellent paper.

__earth, I gave the adoption issue a second thought, and I think I can accept the rational that children shouldn't be born to this world and brought up by parents who are "not normal" and socially un-justified. One point about the "refuse to go through what others go through" - we can get a solution using technology, by cloning or implanting uterus in a man's body. Now before firing me on the lameness or the impossibility of the technology, grant me the availability of this option, and tell me if gays can adopt kids now, if most gays uses the technology to produce children, while in some exceptional cases the technology fail to help them and they still want a child. It's even easier on female. Both of them can grab Stuff from the sperm bank - as long as the donor is willing, the lesbian couples can have kids easily. But in the rare case where a lesbian couple are both impotent, can they adopt children?


And lastly about the gay is choice or given. Let me hypothesize it this way, for the sake of argument that a person can be gay, but not born one, and yet not a free choice either. (Sorry, using boy as example, apply to girls too)

Supposed that some kid, puberty period, sex drive high, got involved in some activity and got "picked up" by some other guy, maybe his age, maybe older, and he had his first kiss, or even maybe first time in bed, whatever, with this other guy. Let's say that this other guy didn't "dumped" him, rather, they had a good time together throughout high school. Since he's so "used to" seeing this guy, it felt weird to even hang out with girls. Lacking the chance to explore the opposite sex, he's sort of "brought up" to be gay. Well we can now launch into a debate of whether we should "rehabilitate" this kid with more standard porn, or force him to be girl school teacher, or some other way, but that's not the point. He's brought up, not born, gay. So how?

Another fictitious scenario. Some guy, grew up timidly, no chance to explore, nerdy, innocent, parents imprison him at home, until NS :) Now he goes NS, sleeps in boy camp, hangs around boys, finds lots of commonality with boys, after camp call boy friends to hang out, maybe even as his camp mates slowly goes off with some other girls, he still find their company unique; slowly he'll go explore other boys, and channel himself towards "gayness" (is there such a word?) in search of the "good times" he used to have in the camp. Should society force him to say a bachelor for life or force him to marry a girl?

Another one! some guy got molested (maybe by a US priest? haha - man, the statistics for this is astonishing) when he was young. Growing up out of frustration, and an image of a satisfied man in his head (for example the pedophile might have asked him to perform some oral sex on him and he did), he might go out there and seek similar pleasure. (Similar to child abuse cases?) For all we know, if he search hard enough, he might actually find a partner that practise the same thing, got hooked up and fell in love with each other?


I'm sorry if anyone is offended by these "stories". I'm just making them up as far as my imagination can go. Just trying to make the case for the occasional gay-not-choice-even-though-not-born. Can it be a mental "handicap"? Perhaps it is not that occasional after all?

[jiinjoo]

Wow, I really enjoyed the discussion so far - Shian Ling, you seem to be very passionate about this - will be wiilling to hear more. Diesel, good luck on your paper. If you're willing to step into some other person's shoes for a while and argue with your own beliefs, I think you'll produce an excellent paper.

__earth, I gave the adoption issue a second thought, and I think I can accept the rational that children shouldn't be born to this world and brought up by parents who are "not normal" and socially un-justified. One point about the "refuse to go through what others go through" - we can get a solution using technology, by cloning or implanting uterus in a man's body. Now before firing me on the lameness or the impossibility of the technology, grant me the availability of this option, and tell me if gays can adopt kids now, if most gays uses the technology to produce children, while in some exceptional cases the technology fail to help them and they still want a child. It's even easier on female. Both of them can grab Stuff from the sperm bank - as long as the donor is willing, the lesbian couples can have kids easily. But in the rare case where a lesbian couple are both impotent, can they adopt children?


And lastly about the gay is choice or given. Let me hypothesize it this way, for the sake of argument that a person can be gay, but not born one, and yet not a free choice either. (Sorry, using boy as example, apply to girls too)

Supposed that some kid, puberty period, sex drive high, got involved in some activity and got "picked up" by some other guy, maybe his age, maybe older, and he had his first kiss, or even maybe first time in bed, whatever, with this other guy. Let's say that this other guy didn't "dumped" him, rather, they had a good time together throughout high school. Since he's so "used to" seeing this guy, it felt weird to even hang out with girls. Lacking the chance to explore the opposite sex, he's sort of "brought up" to be gay. Well we can now launch into a debate of whether we should "rehabilitate" this kid with more standard porn, or force him to be girl school teacher, or some other way, but that's not the point. He's brought up, not born, gay. So how?

Another fictitious scenario. Some guy, grew up timidly, no chance to explore, nerdy, innocent, parents imprison him at home, until NS :) Now he goes NS, sleeps in boy camp, hangs around boys, finds lots of commonality with boys, after camp call boy friends to hang out, maybe even as his camp mates slowly goes off with some other girls, he still find their company unique; slowly he'll go explore other boys, and channel himself towards "gayness" (is there such a word?) in search of the "good times" he used to have in the camp. Should society force him to say a bachelor for life or force him to marry a girl?

Another one! some guy got molested (maybe by a US priest? haha - man, the statistics for this is astonishing) when he was young. Growing up out of frustration, and an image of a satisfied man in his head (for example the pedophile might have asked him to perform some oral sex on him and he did), he might go out there and seek similar pleasure. (Similar to child abuse cases?) For all we know, if he search hard enough, he might actually find a partner that practise the same thing, got hooked up and fell in love with each other?


I'm sorry if anyone is offended by these "stories". I'm just making them up as far as my imagination can go. Just trying to make the case for the occasional gay-not-choice-even-though-not-born. Can it be a mental "handicap"? Perhaps it is not that occasional after all?

[Diesel]

good job on the citing. however, i think it is more like a hypothesis. " Molecular linkage studies have suggested chromosomal regions that may be involved in conferring a susceptibility to homosexuality (eg, Xq28), but a specific gene has not yet been identified. "
it's not certain yet, is it?

well, as far as i'm concerned, most major religions oppose homosexuality. in other words, most religion believe that God do not favor gays. If some people are born gays, that means some people are born to be hated by God. So, those who believe in the finding of the study will have doubt in God, if their religions oppose homosexuality.

[Diesel]

good job on the citing. however, i think it is more like a hypothesis. " Molecular linkage studies have suggested chromosomal regions that may be involved in conferring a susceptibility to homosexuality (eg, Xq28), but a specific gene has not yet been identified. "
it's not certain yet, is it?

well, as far as i'm concerned, most major religions oppose homosexuality. in other words, most religion believe that God do not favor gays. If some people are born gays, that means some people are born to be hated by God. So, those who believe in the finding of the study will have doubt in God, if their religions oppose homosexuality.

[__earth]

i dont think religion matters. How do you apply your argument to atheists?

[__earth]

i dont think religion matters. How do you apply your argument to atheists?

[taufiq]

We can find another arguments for the atheists
but for people who have religion,
we still can make them learn
that religion doesn't support such a thing

[taufiq]

We can find another arguments for the atheists
but for people who have religion,
we still can make them learn
that religion doesn't support such a thing

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

truly, personally it's saddening for me to see "religion" is again and again, used as a patronizing tool to be imposed on free individual.

Some one mentioned that moral shouldnt be an issue but religion SHOULD be an issue. I don't understand this. The statement by that person seems contradictory coz he/she later mentioned that "religion" does not matter.

I am not "passionate" about supporting any particular group. I am just tired/sick of how people often like to make assumptions and impose their very personal beliefs on other people's lives. I just believe that all beings are equal. whether they are "created", or born out of birth cycle..or in whatever way brought to this world.

I am very very saddened by the possibility that some people can be born to be hated. haha. Sounds like the argument of the Nazist Germany when they wanna kill all the Jews.

About the issue of meritocracy, it's completely a matter of implementing the rules after they are granted marriage right. seems like people tend to suppose that giving birth to children is a "contribution" to the world. Some countries in this world are fighting hard against population explosion. Haha, maybe they should allow more gays to be married. hahaha..

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

truly, personally it's saddening for me to see "religion" is again and again, used as a patronizing tool to be imposed on free individual.

Some one mentioned that moral shouldnt be an issue but religion SHOULD be an issue. I don't understand this. The statement by that person seems contradictory coz he/she later mentioned that "religion" does not matter.

I am not "passionate" about supporting any particular group. I am just tired/sick of how people often like to make assumptions and impose their very personal beliefs on other people's lives. I just believe that all beings are equal. whether they are "created", or born out of birth cycle..or in whatever way brought to this world.

I am very very saddened by the possibility that some people can be born to be hated. haha. Sounds like the argument of the Nazist Germany when they wanna kill all the Jews.

About the issue of meritocracy, it's completely a matter of implementing the rules after they are granted marriage right. seems like people tend to suppose that giving birth to children is a "contribution" to the world. Some countries in this world are fighting hard against population explosion. Haha, maybe they should allow more gays to be married. hahaha..

[__earth]

Some one mentioned that moral shouldnt be an issue but religion SHOULD be an issue. I don't understand this. The statement by that person seems contradictory coz he/she later mentioned that "religion" does not matter

It is me that said moral is not an issue. But I didn't remember saying religion matters.

[__earth]

Some one mentioned that moral shouldnt be an issue but religion SHOULD be an issue. I don't understand this. The statement by that person seems contradictory coz he/she later mentioned that "religion" does not matter

It is me that said moral is not an issue. But I didn't remember saying religion matters.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

This is what you said:

"here, i agree with you. Moral is not an issue. Nobody has the rights to impose his/her moral on others. Religion should be an issue. "

"I dont think religion matters. How do you apply your argument to atheists?"

if there is no contradiction in these two statements, maybe i am an illiterate. Bad in interpreting skill. haha.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

This is what you said:

"here, i agree with you. Moral is not an issue. Nobody has the rights to impose his/her moral on others. Religion should be an issue. "

"I dont think religion matters. How do you apply your argument to atheists?"

if there is no contradiction in these two statements, maybe i am an illiterate. Bad in interpreting skill. haha.

[__earth]

i guess it was a typo. apologize for that. it should read religion should not be an issue. that should get the logic inline with the my overall sentiment.

[__earth]

i guess it was a typo. apologize for that. it should read religion should not be an issue. that should get the logic inline with the my overall sentiment.

[Diesel]

no, what i meant was it doesnt matter for the atheists. they are free to believe what they want to. but for those who have religion, and if the religion is against gayness, that might be a problem.

[Diesel]

no, what i meant was it doesnt matter for the atheists. they are free to believe what they want to. but for those who have religion, and if the religion is against gayness, that might be a problem.

[rjles]

Dear all, a friend told me about this forum (and this topic). Just kind of curious how Malaysian straights think about this.

1) Well, first of all have you ever wondered why this topic is getting so much attention here (the number of views is quite impressive) maybe the number of gays and lesbians in the community is quite high.

2) Why do we want equal rights for marriage (and everything) ?because we are human beings too, and it won't hurt people like you if we could get married or have children (people like you might hurt our children). We still live as couples with or without marriage, but we loose rights on many things that we earned and worked for together. ie insurance, properties, custody of children etc. A scenerio : an old couple of gay (or lesbian), one of them had a bad accident and passed away in the hospital; his partner would not be allowed to see him for the last time; the living person will later face more unfair issues, there'll be no auto inheritance of properties/assets/pension etc. We are denied of as many as 1000 protections, benefits and responsibilities that accompany civil marriage.

3) it's disgusting to see people of same sex kissing or holding hands? well, it's never mention that when seen in porno films. If you think that's disgusting, we think the same way too if we are asked to have physical contacts with people of opposite sex, strange huh? but similarly,we find it strange that you cannot understand how we feel.

4) human race won't be endangered by giving equal rights to homosexuals because we are still minority. Normal people won't be 'infected' and become homosexual. Let's worry more about pollution, destructive weapons etc.

5) I once asked a muslim girl (north african) how would she react if her brother is gay. Her answer is, he's not normal, i can't accept that. I said :'if he's dying of AIDS, would you visit him? would you pay him a last visit?', answer is NO. sigh............

Finally, just wanna say that we hurt nobody and please don't hurt us. And please don't say that it's a choice, it's fashionable to be gay. Living as homosexual is very tough, it started since teenage, imagine we have to suffer this till the end of our life. Those who CHOOSE to be homosexual must be 'abnormal'

[rjles]

Dear all, a friend told me about this forum (and this topic). Just kind of curious how Malaysian straights think about this.

1) Well, first of all have you ever wondered why this topic is getting so much attention here (the number of views is quite impressive) maybe the number of gays and lesbians in the community is quite high.

2) Why do we want equal rights for marriage (and everything) ?because we are human beings too, and it won't hurt people like you if we could get married or have children (people like you might hurt our children). We still live as couples with or without marriage, but we loose rights on many things that we earned and worked for together. ie insurance, properties, custody of children etc. A scenerio : an old couple of gay (or lesbian), one of them had a bad accident and passed away in the hospital; his partner would not be allowed to see him for the last time; the living person will later face more unfair issues, there'll be no auto inheritance of properties/assets/pension etc. We are denied of as many as 1000 protections, benefits and responsibilities that accompany civil marriage.

3) it's disgusting to see people of same sex kissing or holding hands? well, it's never mention that when seen in porno films. If you think that's disgusting, we think the same way too if we are asked to have physical contacts with people of opposite sex, strange huh? but similarly,we find it strange that you cannot understand how we feel.

4) human race won't be endangered by giving equal rights to homosexuals because we are still minority. Normal people won't be 'infected' and become homosexual. Let's worry more about pollution, destructive weapons etc.

5) I once asked a muslim girl (north african) how would she react if her brother is gay. Her answer is, he's not normal, i can't accept that. I said :'if he's dying of AIDS, would you visit him? would you pay him a last visit?', answer is NO. sigh............

Finally, just wanna say that we hurt nobody and please don't hurt us. And please don't say that it's a choice, it's fashionable to be gay. Living as homosexual is very tough, it started since teenage, imagine we have to suffer this till the end of our life. Those who CHOOSE to be homosexual must be 'abnormal'

[Diesel]

well, if my brother is a gay, i won't accept it too. I think he's abnormal, in a bad way. but as a brother, i would take care of him should he become sick or something.
i'm a muslim too, that's my stance. i'm not a devout muslim, but i believe that God hates homosexuality. so i dont believe that some people are born to be hated by God.
but i'm not saying that gay people are evil, as long as they dont **** with me. they are good gay people out there. (my favorite is George Michael ). :P

[Diesel]

well, if my brother is a gay, i won't accept it too. I think he's abnormal, in a bad way. but as a brother, i would take care of him should he become sick or something.
i'm a muslim too, that's my stance. i'm not a devout muslim, but i believe that God hates homosexuality. so i dont believe that some people are born to be hated by God.
but i'm not saying that gay people are evil, as long as they dont **** with me. they are good gay people out there. (my favorite is George Michael ). :P

[Schye]

well, if my brother is a gay, i won't accept it too. I think he's abnormal, in a bad way. but as a brother, i would take care of him should he become sick or something.
i'm a muslim too, that's my stance. i'm not a devout muslim, but i believe that God hates homosexuality. so i dont believe that some people are born to be hated by God.
but i'm not saying that gay people are evil, as long as they dont **** with me. they are good gay people out there. (my favorite is George Michael ). :P

If my brohter is a gay, he is still my brother :)
and again i feel the same as some others that religions should not be an issue. Even if they do, i still think that GOD loves everyone.

[Schye]

well, if my brother is a gay, i won't accept it too. I think he's abnormal, in a bad way. but as a brother, i would take care of him should he become sick or something.
i'm a muslim too, that's my stance. i'm not a devout muslim, but i believe that God hates homosexuality. so i dont believe that some people are born to be hated by God.
but i'm not saying that gay people are evil, as long as they dont **** with me. they are good gay people out there. (my favorite is George Michael ). :P

If my brohter is a gay, he is still my brother :)
and again i feel the same as some others that religions should not be an issue. Even if they do, i still think that GOD loves everyone.

[Vigilante]

I hope we can end the religion as a factor to determine whether gays should be able to get married or not. In the United States at least, the wall separating the Church and State should be maintained.

If we were to enforce marriage laws based on the Holy Book,

1) Marriage shall consist of a union between man and woman. (Gen 29:17-28; II Sam 3:2-5.)

2) Inter-religion marriage is forbidden. (Gen 24:3; Num 25:1-9; Ezra 9:12; Neh 10:30)

3) New brides must be checked if they are virgins. If they are not they will be executed.(Deut 22:13-21)

4) No constitution of any State or federal law can allow divorce.(Deut 22:19; Mark 10:9)

5) If a man dies, his brother (if he has one) must marry the widow and give her children. If not he shall be punished by law. (Gen. 38:6-10; Deut 25:5-10)

6) Men can have several wives.(II Sam 5:13; I Kings 11:3; II Chron 11:21)


If we want to implement 1), then we have to implement 2) 3) 4) 5) and 6) as well. If not, we shouldn't implement any of the above.

"If you are going to claim the (Holy Book) as your primary (or only) code of ethics, and proclaim (say) that homosexuality is sinful and wrong because the (Holy Book) says so, then to be consistent you've got to kill rebellions youth (Deuteronomy 21:18 -21) and nonvirginal premarried women. Since most would not endorse that brand of consistency, why pick on gays and lesbians but cut some slack for rebellious youth and promiscuous women?" (Shermer, "Let Us Reflect")

[Vigilante]

I hope we can end the religion as a factor to determine whether gays should be able to get married or not. In the United States at least, the wall separating the Church and State should be maintained.

If we were to enforce marriage laws based on the Holy Book,

1) Marriage shall consist of a union between man and woman. (Gen 29:17-28; II Sam 3:2-5.)

2) Inter-religion marriage is forbidden. (Gen 24:3; Num 25:1-9; Ezra 9:12; Neh 10:30)

3) New brides must be checked if they are virgins. If they are not they will be executed.(Deut 22:13-21)

4) No constitution of any State or federal law can allow divorce.(Deut 22:19; Mark 10:9)

5) If a man dies, his brother (if he has one) must marry the widow and give her children. If not he shall be punished by law. (Gen. 38:6-10; Deut 25:5-10)

6) Men can have several wives.(II Sam 5:13; I Kings 11:3; II Chron 11:21)


If we want to implement 1), then we have to implement 2) 3) 4) 5) and 6) as well. If not, we shouldn't implement any of the above.

"If you are going to claim the (Holy Book) as your primary (or only) code of ethics, and proclaim (say) that homosexuality is sinful and wrong because the (Holy Book) says so, then to be consistent you've got to kill rebellions youth (Deuteronomy 21:18 -21) and nonvirginal premarried women. Since most would not endorse that brand of consistency, why pick on gays and lesbians but cut some slack for rebellious youth and promiscuous women?" (Shermer, "Let Us Reflect")

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

Vigilante. Thumbs up for your quotes.
:D

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

Vigilante. Thumbs up for your quotes.
:D

[DecentMerson]

ok....
actually i wanna ask a question...think about it....

Does the law(same sex marriage is legal or not) affects the number of gays or lesbian?

Do you think because same-sex marriage is legitimated, then more people will become gay or lesbian? I don't think so.

No matter what is the outcome of the law, gay or lesbian will still be themself. Gay will always be gay and same applies to the lesbian too....

actually, the society is really opening up to same sex marriages. from being killed, to being hated, then to be accepted..... sooner or later, they will be recognized.....

and the religious thingy and moral issue, i think that it is sort of unimportant....why?

i totally agree with Vigilante
I hope we can end the religion as a factor to determine whether gays should be able to get married or not. In the United States at least, the wall separating the Church and State should be maintained.

our world is full of hypocrits.....
2) Inter-religion marriage is forbidden. (Gen 24:3; Num 25:1-9; Ezra 9:12; Neh 10:30)
i wonder how many millions of Christian broke this "rule" every year!

3) New brides must be checked if they are virgins. If they are not they will be executed.(Deut 22:13-21)
ehm.... i dunno how many girls will be married... many of them will be executed......

if the wall separating the Church and State is not maintained....
then wat will happen to athiests, free thinkers and those who believes in other God(s).

and about adoption, i see no problem for Same-sex couple to adopt children... by adopting, they are reducing those children who need love and care.... and it is not easy to adopt a child legally... they have to be scrutinized and surveyed and interviewed...

4) No constitution of any State or federal law can allow divorce.(Deut 22:19; Mark 10:9)
why are single parents (who divorced) are given aids in many ways...?

Reason is, tax exemption is given to married couple to promote population growth. gays don't promote growth and that should be enough to refuse them certain rights the hetero couples usually receive.
do you want every married couple to promote growth? then i think the law should be changed and enacted in such a way that couple will only recieved tax exemption if they have kids.....there are millions of childless couples out there who don't promote growth , yet received tax exemption and other benefits.

lets see, in Singapore, a country who needs population growth more desperate than any other country is still accepting gay community....why? bcoz they believed gay community shld have the same rights as others...

All in all, I'm no pro-gay.... but I'm definitely not anti-gay....just wanna point out that the current law is unfair towards the gay community. :roll:

[DecentMerson]

ok....
actually i wanna ask a question...think about it....

Does the law(same sex marriage is legal or not) affects the number of gays or lesbian?

Do you think because same-sex marriage is legitimated, then more people will become gay or lesbian? I don't think so.

No matter what is the outcome of the law, gay or lesbian will still be themself. Gay will always be gay and same applies to the lesbian too....

actually, the society is really opening up to same sex marriages. from being killed, to being hated, then to be accepted..... sooner or later, they will be recognized.....

and the religious thingy and moral issue, i think that it is sort of unimportant....why?

i totally agree with Vigilante
I hope we can end the religion as a factor to determine whether gays should be able to get married or not. In the United States at least, the wall separating the Church and State should be maintained.

our world is full of hypocrits.....
2) Inter-religion marriage is forbidden. (Gen 24:3; Num 25:1-9; Ezra 9:12; Neh 10:30)
i wonder how many millions of Christian broke this "rule" every year!

3) New brides must be checked if they are virgins. If they are not they will be executed.(Deut 22:13-21)
ehm.... i dunno how many girls will be married... many of them will be executed......

if the wall separating the Church and State is not maintained....
then wat will happen to athiests, free thinkers and those who believes in other God(s).

and about adoption, i see no problem for Same-sex couple to adopt children... by adopting, they are reducing those children who need love and care.... and it is not easy to adopt a child legally... they have to be scrutinized and surveyed and interviewed...

4) No constitution of any State or federal law can allow divorce.(Deut 22:19; Mark 10:9)
why are single parents (who divorced) are given aids in many ways...?

Reason is, tax exemption is given to married couple to promote population growth. gays don't promote growth and that should be enough to refuse them certain rights the hetero couples usually receive.
do you want every married couple to promote growth? then i think the law should be changed and enacted in such a way that couple will only recieved tax exemption if they have kids.....there are millions of childless couples out there who don't promote growth , yet received tax exemption and other benefits.

lets see, in Singapore, a country who needs population growth more desperate than any other country is still accepting gay community....why? bcoz they believed gay community shld have the same rights as others...

All in all, I'm no pro-gay.... but I'm definitely not anti-gay....just wanna point out that the current law is unfair towards the gay community. :roll:

[Diesel]

If my brohter is a gay, he is still my brother :)
and again i feel the same as some others that religions should not be an issue. Even if they do, i still think that GOD loves everyone.
look, when it comes to think whether or not the same sex marriage should be legalized in the US, of course religion should be put aside, since this is a secular country.

but i was talking about my brother. my family. in my family, religion does matter. whether it does or not in your family, that's not my business. i was just sharing with you guys about my feeling should it happen to my family member. clear?

[Diesel]

If my brohter is a gay, he is still my brother :)
and again i feel the same as some others that religions should not be an issue. Even if they do, i still think that GOD loves everyone.
look, when it comes to think whether or not the same sex marriage should be legalized in the US, of course religion should be put aside, since this is a secular country.

but i was talking about my brother. my family. in my family, religion does matter. whether it does or not in your family, that's not my business. i was just sharing with you guys about my feeling should it happen to my family member. clear?

[Vigilante]

If a couple doesn't want to have a baby, does that mean they can't get married? How about some women who can't have babies due to physical reasons? My neighbor couldn't seem to have any kids. Maybe we should revoke their marriage and make them pay more taxes since they're not increasing the population.
The ability to have babies is not a requirement for marriage.

Children would be psychologically disturbed if they do not have 'normal' parents of a father AND a mother. Thus gay couples do not deserve marriage benefits and do not have rights to adopt children(paraphrased)
Minus social pressure and prejudice for a having 'odd' parents, this argument is flawed. We see today single women are adopting children, like Angelina Jolie and Jodie Foster. These children don't have father figures. How about parents who are in the army? Should they be barred from having children as their children will always live in the fear that their parents might die and thus suffer psychologically? And what happends if their parents do fall in battlefield?

So how bad could it be for a child to have two, assuming loving, fathers or mothers? The only problem I could see is that the child might be picked and prejudiced at school for having gay parents. But that's the society problem, not the gay couples. Why should they be responsible for the negative viewpoint of the society?

Again, children can, and are, psychologically disturbed regardless if their parent(s) are homosexual or heterosexual. No evidence/research has showned that children belonging to homosexual couples receive anymore psychologically problems than heterosexual couples. As before, it's as if saying that Black parents can't raise their kids well, so they shouldn't be allowed to adopt. It is based on groundless assumptions and prejudices. - osaya, personal friend of mine who commented on my Xanga


To me, this topic is no different than asking whether interracial couples are allowed to married. To me, this topic is purely about discrimination of a minority group. To me, this topic is about basic rights, dignity and respect. But I also agree that we have differing opinions. I respect that.

For you, all you have to say is ?no? to homosexual marriages, and life goes on for you. But for them, they will have to live their whole lives determined by people who have no inkling what they go through. Why? Because they are a minority. Just because they are different, doesn?t make them any way less than us. It is their lives, it is their choice. How would you like it if someone predetermined your life for you? It?s a about basic rights, dignity and respect. You have yours. Please give them theirs. - osaya, his Xanga entry

[Vigilante]

If a couple doesn't want to have a baby, does that mean they can't get married? How about some women who can't have babies due to physical reasons? My neighbor couldn't seem to have any kids. Maybe we should revoke their marriage and make them pay more taxes since they're not increasing the population.
The ability to have babies is not a requirement for marriage.

Children would be psychologically disturbed if they do not have 'normal' parents of a father AND a mother. Thus gay couples do not deserve marriage benefits and do not have rights to adopt children(paraphrased)
Minus social pressure and prejudice for a having 'odd' parents, this argument is flawed. We see today single women are adopting children, like Angelina Jolie and Jodie Foster. These children don't have father figures. How about parents who are in the army? Should they be barred from having children as their children will always live in the fear that their parents might die and thus suffer psychologically? And what happends if their parents do fall in battlefield?

So how bad could it be for a child to have two, assuming loving, fathers or mothers? The only problem I could see is that the child might be picked and prejudiced at school for having gay parents. But that's the society problem, not the gay couples. Why should they be responsible for the negative viewpoint of the society?

Again, children can, and are, psychologically disturbed regardless if their parent(s) are homosexual or heterosexual. No evidence/research has showned that children belonging to homosexual couples receive anymore psychologically problems than heterosexual couples. As before, it's as if saying that Black parents can't raise their kids well, so they shouldn't be allowed to adopt. It is based on groundless assumptions and prejudices. - osaya, personal friend of mine who commented on my Xanga


To me, this topic is no different than asking whether interracial couples are allowed to married. To me, this topic is purely about discrimination of a minority group. To me, this topic is about basic rights, dignity and respect. But I also agree that we have differing opinions. I respect that.

For you, all you have to say is ?no? to homosexual marriages, and life goes on for you. But for them, they will have to live their whole lives determined by people who have no inkling what they go through. Why? Because they are a minority. Just because they are different, doesn?t make them any way less than us. It is their lives, it is their choice. How would you like it if someone predetermined your life for you? It?s a about basic rights, dignity and respect. You have yours. Please give them theirs. - osaya, his Xanga entry

[DecentMerson]

CHEERS for Vigilante... I AGREE!!!!

[DecentMerson]

CHEERS for Vigilante... I AGREE!!!!

[kennytang]

ok....
All in all, I'm no pro-gay.... but I'm definitely not anti-gay....just wanna point out that the current law is unfair towards the gay community. :roll:
do u think gay is alright?
i dont think so
it just simply obeys the law of nature....
mayb i am quite out.
but "it's in to be out" :wink:

[kennytang]

ok....
All in all, I'm no pro-gay.... but I'm definitely not anti-gay....just wanna point out that the current law is unfair towards the gay community. :roll:
do u think gay is alright?
i dont think so
it just simply obeys the law of nature....
mayb i am quite out.
but "it's in to be out" :wink:

[__earth]

concerning gay marriage, i concede.

I'm trying to argue against gay marriage but its certainly a violation of my ideals. Whenever I argue against it, it seems like there are some contradicting logic in my brain. however, being a muslim, apparent not being sufficiently liberal, I it really hard to accept gay marriage. but then, i value freedom more.

Fine, freedom of all. and some would say libert?, ?galit?, fraternit?.

Hey decentmerson, moral and religion should not be an issue in a secular society.

I'm writing this from on top of my head. Correct me if I'm wrong.

This is based on a few premises. some of them are everybody is equal, everybody is free and In a free society, everybody is free as long as he/she respects others right.

In this case, the statement moral does not matter doesn't mean you can kill because you think its right.
It simply means you can't impose your belief on others. That's why moral and religion are irrelevent, at least in a secular society.

If one imposes one's moral on others, freedom will be limited to a certain degree.

[__earth]

concerning gay marriage, i concede.

I'm trying to argue against gay marriage but its certainly a violation of my ideals. Whenever I argue against it, it seems like there are some contradicting logic in my brain. however, being a muslim, apparent not being sufficiently liberal, I it really hard to accept gay marriage. but then, i value freedom more.

Fine, freedom of all. and some would say libert?, ?galit?, fraternit?.

Hey decentmerson, moral and religion should not be an issue in a secular society.

I'm writing this from on top of my head. Correct me if I'm wrong.

This is based on a few premises. some of them are everybody is equal, everybody is free and In a free society, everybody is free as long as he/she respects others right.

In this case, the statement moral does not matter doesn't mean you can kill because you think its right.
It simply means you can't impose your belief on others. That's why moral and religion are irrelevent, at least in a secular society.

If one imposes one's moral on others, freedom will be limited to a certain degree.

[DecentMerson]

ok....
All in all, I'm no pro-gay.... but I'm definitely not anti-gay....just wanna point out that the current law is unfair towards the gay community. :roll:
do u think gay is alright?
i dont think so
it just simply obeys the law of nature....
mayb i am quite out.
but "it's in to be out" :wink:

er....can't really follow ur logic over here....
is there a typo or wat.???

if not....
why do u think is not alright.???

[DecentMerson]

ok....
All in all, I'm no pro-gay.... but I'm definitely not anti-gay....just wanna point out that the current law is unfair towards the gay community. :roll:
do u think gay is alright?
i dont think so
it just simply obeys the law of nature....
mayb i am quite out.
but "it's in to be out" :wink:

er....can't really follow ur logic over here....
is there a typo or wat.???

if not....
why do u think is not alright.???

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

Vigilante,

a second thumbs up for your analysis!

:)


shian ling

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

Vigilante,

a second thumbs up for your analysis!

:)


shian ling

[qedx]

whats the big deal with marriage anyway? why do people want to get married?

[qedx]

whats the big deal with marriage anyway? why do people want to get married?

[jiinjoo]

I thought marriage is an institutionalized way such that people can be responsible and care for what they produce :P Here's a quote: "An ancient practice of taking a life's companion or long term sexual/social partner."

But then if you're religious - it might be God mandate - is it?

[jiinjoo]

I thought marriage is an institutionalized way such that people can be responsible and care for what they produce :P Here's a quote: "An ancient practice of taking a life's companion or long term sexual/social partner."

But then if you're religious - it might be God mandate - is it?

[qedx]

still no answers to "why marry?"

[qedx]

still no answers to "why marry?"

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

to me personally, it doesn't matter that much.

as long as i find someone whom i love and who loves me, i dont really care if we are "legally" married....haha i am an anti-traditionalist....

and keep in mind this is jz something very personal, i still believe that everyone's equal to have marriage rights!

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

to me personally, it doesn't matter that much.

as long as i find someone whom i love and who loves me, i dont really care if we are "legally" married....haha i am an anti-traditionalist....

and keep in mind this is jz something very personal, i still believe that everyone's equal to have marriage rights!

[jiinjoo]

Oh, I misinterpreted your question, I thought you ask what is marriage.

So why marry? Tradition? Law? Passport to proliferation of human genome? Attend to the sexual urge (especially men) without compromising the global stability which potentially can exacerbate world hunger, destruct the environment and cause mass deprivation? Adhering to cultural expectations, exercizing social norms so that you fit in to society better? Acquire all the tax deduction benefits as a family instead of an individual? Or as simple as, for love?

But still, you don't need to buy any of that, and still have a reason to marry.

[jiinjoo]

Oh, I misinterpreted your question, I thought you ask what is marriage.

So why marry? Tradition? Law? Passport to proliferation of human genome? Attend to the sexual urge (especially men) without compromising the global stability which potentially can exacerbate world hunger, destruct the environment and cause mass deprivation? Adhering to cultural expectations, exercizing social norms so that you fit in to society better? Acquire all the tax deduction benefits as a family instead of an individual? Or as simple as, for love?

But still, you don't need to buy any of that, and still have a reason to marry.

[Schye]

Or maybe they just want to be treated EQUALLY as others in the world.

[Schye]

Or maybe they just want to be treated EQUALLY as others in the world.

[sanghanuman]

I think that the reason for a lot of people against gay marriage is because when they see the marriage is done in a (for example) church, with a priest, and tied by the sacred words of God, which does not approve of gay, there's is no logic in that.

When we say marriage, what exactly the channel that we are going to use to do that? Where do gays want to get married? in church, mosque? synagogue etc? Well, that's something very related to religion now isn't it?

However, I do believe that there are a lot of gays who are religious. In Minnesota, they even have a gay priest, who is very well known. But seriously, unless you get a gay priest to marry you in a church of rainbows, do not expect other people to contradict themselves by letting you marry in their church.

Gays, if you want to get married just by registering your unions in the state's record, without relating yourself to any religion, then go ahead. But, do not by any way, try to seek your place in religion, for you have none.

It is true that gays and religion do not go together. Then again, a matter of love, whos to know. Love for God, and love for your partner. Find a way, away from religion.

p/s: Is it true that gay sex would lead to many sexual diseases including AIDS? I seek for an answer, please help.

[sanghanuman]

I think that the reason for a lot of people against gay marriage is because when they see the marriage is done in a (for example) church, with a priest, and tied by the sacred words of God, which does not approve of gay, there's is no logic in that.

When we say marriage, what exactly the channel that we are going to use to do that? Where do gays want to get married? in church, mosque? synagogue etc? Well, that's something very related to religion now isn't it?

However, I do believe that there are a lot of gays who are religious. In Minnesota, they even have a gay priest, who is very well known. But seriously, unless you get a gay priest to marry you in a church of rainbows, do not expect other people to contradict themselves by letting you marry in their church.

Gays, if you want to get married just by registering your unions in the state's record, without relating yourself to any religion, then go ahead. But, do not by any way, try to seek your place in religion, for you have none.

It is true that gays and religion do not go together. Then again, a matter of love, whos to know. Love for God, and love for your partner. Find a way, away from religion.

p/s: Is it true that gay sex would lead to many sexual diseases including AIDS? I seek for an answer, please help.

[taufiq]

What is the definition of a family?
how can gay marriage fulfill the definiton of a family?

[taufiq]

What is the definition of a family?
how can gay marriage fulfill the definiton of a family?

[__earth]

well, whatever it is, bush has pushed for a constitution change banning gay marriage.

[__earth]

well, whatever it is, bush has pushed for a constitution change banning gay marriage.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

yeah, this is a sad phenomena. Hope that the social/political pressure can prevent him from doing this--an act of constitutionalize hatred. No one could utilize law to prevent such a fundamental freedom of human being.

Let's pray hard. for the well being of all sentient beings.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

yeah, this is a sad phenomena. Hope that the social/political pressure can prevent him from doing this--an act of constitutionalize hatred. No one could utilize law to prevent such a fundamental freedom of human being.

Let's pray hard. for the well being of all sentient beings.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

Or maybe they just want to be treated EQUALLY as others in the world.


WHO in this world does not want to be treated equally?

just as we do not like people to impose their belief in our choice/oppress our freedom, we would not want to do the same thing for people who recognize their love for the same sex too.

(by the way, Schye, i like your quote below your message)

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

Or maybe they just want to be treated EQUALLY as others in the world.


WHO in this world does not want to be treated equally?

just as we do not like people to impose their belief in our choice/oppress our freedom, we would not want to do the same thing for people who recognize their love for the same sex too.

(by the way, Schye, i like your quote below your message)

[__earth]

When we say marriage, what exactly the channel that we are going to use to do that? Where do gays want to get married? in church, mosque? synagogue etc? Well, that's something very related to religion now isn't it?

marriage to a certain degree has been secularized. All you need is a devil nowadays (reads lawyer)

but i still dont get it why gays want marriage. it seems that civil union is sufficient for gays. they'll get every benefit that every married hetero couple gets, most notably tax exemption.

i dont think the argument of equality applies here because most hetero couples marry due to religions' rule on relationship though i must say the current society is pretty lenient on that. and since homsexuality clearly violates the tenet of most religions, i dont see why gays demand the marriage.

however, i do see how this argument would have a problem in dealing with atheists marriage.

[__earth]

When we say marriage, what exactly the channel that we are going to use to do that? Where do gays want to get married? in church, mosque? synagogue etc? Well, that's something very related to religion now isn't it?

marriage to a certain degree has been secularized. All you need is a devil nowadays (reads lawyer)

but i still dont get it why gays want marriage. it seems that civil union is sufficient for gays. they'll get every benefit that every married hetero couple gets, most notably tax exemption.

i dont think the argument of equality applies here because most hetero couples marry due to religions' rule on relationship though i must say the current society is pretty lenient on that. and since homsexuality clearly violates the tenet of most religions, i dont see why gays demand the marriage.

however, i do see how this argument would have a problem in dealing with atheists marriage.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

i respect everyone's views.

But again, i am saddened because sometimes truly, religion has been use to lower certain people's status in this world...allows us to see other people as NOT fully our equal being.

if we want to prevent gay marriage, then first:

what we NEED to do is that:

whoever wanna divorce must marry their partner's brothers/sisters.

juvenile delinquencies should be KILLED.

MEN CAN have many wives.

Contraception should be COMPLETELY banned.

no abortion is allowed; not even in a case of rape.

We should chop down the hands of those people who steal.

So, there are so many things we should be concerned about before talking about gay marriage.

(sorry if i offend anyone, i am just tired)

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

i respect everyone's views.

But again, i am saddened because sometimes truly, religion has been use to lower certain people's status in this world...allows us to see other people as NOT fully our equal being.

if we want to prevent gay marriage, then first:

what we NEED to do is that:

whoever wanna divorce must marry their partner's brothers/sisters.

juvenile delinquencies should be KILLED.

MEN CAN have many wives.

Contraception should be COMPLETELY banned.

no abortion is allowed; not even in a case of rape.

We should chop down the hands of those people who steal.

So, there are so many things we should be concerned about before talking about gay marriage.

(sorry if i offend anyone, i am just tired)

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

lets not be hypocritical.

:)

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

lets not be hypocritical.

:)

[da-hype]

Well i just think it's wrong. it's un natural and it's against if not all most religions.

[da-hype]

Well i just think it's wrong. it's un natural and it's against if not all most religions.

[__earth]

the question is, why use religious term of marriage when one clearly violates the religion?
sounds illogical to me.

in a line of logic. It's like
You don't believe in A.
A asserts B.
You follow B.

But through logic, if you dont believe in A, why should or would you follow B?

[__earth]

the question is, why use religious term of marriage when one clearly violates the religion?
sounds illogical to me.

in a line of logic. It's like
You don't believe in A.
A asserts B.
You follow B.

But through logic, if you dont believe in A, why should or would you follow B?

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

aiya... one of my statements is so wrong:

hahah "whoever wanna divorce must marry his/her partner's brothers/sisters"

haha what i wanted to say is that:

1. DIVORCE should be BANNED!!

2. those whose husbands/wives died SHOULD marry their partners' brothers and sisters.


( i really don;t want to come to these kinds of arguments; but i am too frustrated, sorry guys)

coz to me the only thing that can really give us a reason to be open to gay marriage is truly, an open and compassionate heart.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

aiya... one of my statements is so wrong:

hahah "whoever wanna divorce must marry his/her partner's brothers/sisters"

haha what i wanted to say is that:

1. DIVORCE should be BANNED!!

2. those whose husbands/wives died SHOULD marry their partners' brothers and sisters.


( i really don;t want to come to these kinds of arguments; but i am too frustrated, sorry guys)

coz to me the only thing that can really give us a reason to be open to gay marriage is truly, an open and compassionate heart.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

Well i just think it's wrong. it's un natural and it's against if not all most religions.


not in Buddhism. (jz for general knowlegde)

haha in fact, the Buddha want us to abstain from any excessive desires... whoever u love.haha

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

Well i just think it's wrong. it's un natural and it's against if not all most religions.


not in Buddhism. (jz for general knowlegde)

haha in fact, the Buddha want us to abstain from any excessive desires... whoever u love.haha

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

the question is, why use religious term of marriage when one clearly violates the religion?
sounds illogical to me.



WHO violates the "RELIGION"??? please bear in mind that "religion" is a VERY BROAD term. There are all kinds of different religions. DO NOT generalize all religions. Diff religions have different stances.

the most basic thing to understand of all is that:

one can even choose not to have any religions.

please do NOT generalize.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

the question is, why use religious term of marriage when one clearly violates the religion?
sounds illogical to me.



WHO violates the "RELIGION"??? please bear in mind that "religion" is a VERY BROAD term. There are all kinds of different religions. DO NOT generalize all religions. Diff religions have different stances.

the most basic thing to understand of all is that:

one can even choose not to have any religions.

please do NOT generalize.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

Well i just think it's wrong.

yea ... i also think that

1. all burglars should get their both hands chopped.

2. all juvenile delinquencies should be KILLED.

3. all men should have more than 1 wives.

4. ALL girls who marry MUST be CHECKED whether they are still virgins. IF NOT, they SHOULD BE KILLED.

then the world will be SO WONDERFUL and BEAUTIFUL.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

Well i just think it's wrong.

yea ... i also think that

1. all burglars should get their both hands chopped.

2. all juvenile delinquencies should be KILLED.

3. all men should have more than 1 wives.

4. ALL girls who marry MUST be CHECKED whether they are still virgins. IF NOT, they SHOULD BE KILLED.

then the world will be SO WONDERFUL and BEAUTIFUL.

[__earth]

well, let's reduce the area to America.
Put Christianity, Islam and Judaism into it since they are the largest. and talking about generalization, you are also generalizing about religion.

[__earth]

well, let's reduce the area to America.
Put Christianity, Islam and Judaism into it since they are the largest. and talking about generalization, you are also generalizing about religion.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

to Vigilante:

thanks for your info on the religious texts. :)

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

to Vigilante:

thanks for your info on the religious texts. :)

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

well, let's reduce the area to America.
Put Christianity, Islam and Judaism into it since they are the largest. and talking about generalization, you are also generalizing about religion.

ya , definitely. lets reduce the area and get all the girls who are NOT virgins KILLED.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

well, let's reduce the area to America.
Put Christianity, Islam and Judaism into it since they are the largest. and talking about generalization, you are also generalizing about religion.

ya , definitely. lets reduce the area and get all the girls who are NOT virgins KILLED.

[__earth]

please be constructive.

[__earth]

please be constructive.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

well, let's reduce the area to America.
Put Christianity, Islam and Judaism into it since they are the largest. and talking about generalization, you are also generalizing about religion.

ya , definitely. lets reduce the area and get all the girls who are NOT virgins KILLED.


er..i mean girls who are not virgins before they get married.

should check their hymen... if no longer intact, then we should SHOOT them or CHOP OFF their head or STONE them to death...

which is a more compassionate way to kill with less pain???

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

well, let's reduce the area to America.
Put Christianity, Islam and Judaism into it since they are the largest. and talking about generalization, you are also generalizing about religion.

ya , definitely. lets reduce the area and get all the girls who are NOT virgins KILLED.


er..i mean girls who are not virgins before they get married.

should check their hymen... if no longer intact, then we should SHOOT them or CHOP OFF their head or STONE them to death...

which is a more compassionate way to kill with less pain???

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

i am not being not constructive.

The point behind ALL MY SCARCACISM IS THAT:

there should not be hypocrisy in whatsoever legislation in states or nation.

there should not be any form of discrimination/ oppression in the name of religion.

yes, maybe i do generalize about religion.
the only thing i generalize is that: religion is about compassion and love, is about opening ourselves to accepting other beings, is about universal love and care.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

i am not being not constructive.

The point behind ALL MY SCARCACISM IS THAT:

there should not be hypocrisy in whatsoever legislation in states or nation.

there should not be any form of discrimination/ oppression in the name of religion.

yes, maybe i do generalize about religion.
the only thing i generalize is that: religion is about compassion and love, is about opening ourselves to accepting other beings, is about universal love and care.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

now i apologize if i cause any arisement of anger in whoever;s heart.

i notice the arisement of anger and hatred; which should not happen to myself as i strive to be a more enlightened being.

i am so sorry to myself.

letting anger overtake me.

i have to remind myself that, no matter what, anger is the source of delusion.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

now i apologize if i cause any arisement of anger in whoever;s heart.

i notice the arisement of anger and hatred; which should not happen to myself as i strive to be a more enlightened being.

i am so sorry to myself.

letting anger overtake me.

i have to remind myself that, no matter what, anger is the source of delusion.

[sanghanuman]

one can even choose not to have any religions.

please do NOT generalize.

You are absolutely right. That is why, when gays want to claim the rights to marry, they should find a way so that the marriage do not take place in religious places. I am sorry to say this, but I do also think that people who put religion in front of human limited mind should also retain their rights to keep their religion, should I say, sacred? Religion cannot be explained through logic because our mind is limited. We are constrained by a lot of forces, one of them being "time".

Yes, do choose not to use religion to "get married". Liberal union is good, why reject it? Why push other people to accept? People can hear opinions, and people get tired too. About equality, I can assure you that every educated person knows more that discriminating/treating other people other ppl. So no worries about gay not being treated equally here.

Plus, maybe you should check on Buddhism being okay with homosexual practices, cause I have doubt on that. Ask a monk about it, will he say that "s'all good y'all"? Will he? Tell me...

[sanghanuman]

one can even choose not to have any religions.

please do NOT generalize.

You are absolutely right. That is why, when gays want to claim the rights to marry, they should find a way so that the marriage do not take place in religious places. I am sorry to say this, but I do also think that people who put religion in front of human limited mind should also retain their rights to keep their religion, should I say, sacred? Religion cannot be explained through logic because our mind is limited. We are constrained by a lot of forces, one of them being "time".

Yes, do choose not to use religion to "get married". Liberal union is good, why reject it? Why push other people to accept? People can hear opinions, and people get tired too. About equality, I can assure you that every educated person knows more that discriminating/treating other people other ppl. So no worries about gay not being treated equally here.

Plus, maybe you should check on Buddhism being okay with homosexual practices, cause I have doubt on that. Ask a monk about it, will he say that "s'all good y'all"? Will he? Tell me...

[__earth]

talking about hypocrisy, dont you think gays are hypocrites too?
they go against religion but yet demand for religious marriage ceremony?
notice that i accept civil union, but not gay marriage. i have no problem with gays per se. im trying to use logic. if my logic is wrong, i'll accept it. If it's right, i'll pursue it.

[__earth]

talking about hypocrisy, dont you think gays are hypocrites too?
they go against religion but yet demand for religious marriage ceremony?
notice that i accept civil union, but not gay marriage. i have no problem with gays per se. im trying to use logic. if my logic is wrong, i'll accept it. If it's right, i'll pursue it.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

please do not evade my questions

who say ALL gays demand religious marriages? (ok let me be explicit: islam, christianity or judaism) even if they do, it's because they believe that their God is a God that loves ALL beings...they have trust in their God that is a truly compassionate god.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

please do not evade my questions

who say ALL gays demand religious marriages? (ok let me be explicit: islam, christianity or judaism) even if they do, it's because they believe that their God is a God that loves ALL beings...they have trust in their God that is a truly compassionate god.

[mercsinc]

i agree with __earth. why do gays want to be married?

marriage is the religious way of legalizing (in terms of religious laws) sexual intercourse between a man and a woman. i dont think there is any religion that allows marriage with the same sex.

so, if gays want to get married, they'd already be objecting to the rules of religion. therefore, why the hell do they want to get married in the first place if they don't intend to go by the rules of religion (any religion in this case) since marriage is a bond to allow sexual intercourse between man and wife(i said this already...didn't i). they dont have to get married because they're already doing something wrong (according to religion).

to me, getting married is just symbolic for the gays. they want to "reassure" themselves that what they are doing is right (or they think is right)...but in fact, is unnatural.

just by looking at the human anatomy/body, you can see that a man and another man (or woman and another woman) don't go together. it was not meant for a men's "private part" (too many names...you can call it whatever you want) to go in through the back door. and where is a woman suppose to insert her "thing" (again...you can use whatever name you are familiar with)? dildos are not natural.

but, a man and a woman is a perfect match.its all "there" and "proper". i know you've got to agree with this (especially those who took biology or have watched any "poron" flicks...i'm not saying i did).

[mercsinc]

i agree with __earth. why do gays want to be married?

marriage is the religious way of legalizing (in terms of religious laws) sexual intercourse between a man and a woman. i dont think there is any religion that allows marriage with the same sex.

so, if gays want to get married, they'd already be objecting to the rules of religion. therefore, why the hell do they want to get married in the first place if they don't intend to go by the rules of religion (any religion in this case) since marriage is a bond to allow sexual intercourse between man and wife(i said this already...didn't i). they dont have to get married because they're already doing something wrong (according to religion).

to me, getting married is just symbolic for the gays. they want to "reassure" themselves that what they are doing is right (or they think is right)...but in fact, is unnatural.

just by looking at the human anatomy/body, you can see that a man and another man (or woman and another woman) don't go together. it was not meant for a men's "private part" (too many names...you can call it whatever you want) to go in through the back door. and where is a woman suppose to insert her "thing" (again...you can use whatever name you are familiar with)? dildos are not natural.

but, a man and a woman is a perfect match.its all "there" and "proper". i know you've got to agree with this (especially those who took biology or have watched any "poron" flicks...i'm not saying i did).

[__earth]

i'm not evading. in fact, i supporting an alternative solution which has already been circulated in main stream media - civil union instead of marriage.

[__earth]

i'm not evading. in fact, i supporting an alternative solution which has already been circulated in main stream media - civil union instead of marriage.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

one can even choose not to have any religions.

please do NOT generalize.

Plus, maybe you should check on Buddhism being okay with homosexual practices, cause I have doubt on that. Ask a monk about it, will he say that "s'all good y'all"? Will he? Tell me...

go online and check for yourself. Check from credicle resources. I do not want to spend my time explaining such a basic detail in Buddhism.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

one can even choose not to have any religions.

please do NOT generalize.

Plus, maybe you should check on Buddhism being okay with homosexual practices, cause I have doubt on that. Ask a monk about it, will he say that "s'all good y'all"? Will he? Tell me...

go online and check for yourself. Check from credicle resources. I do not want to spend my time explaining such a basic detail in Buddhism.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

i'm not evading. in fact, i supporting an alternative solution which has already been circulated in main stream media - civil union instead of marriage.

which means that you are still letting your prejudice messing with other people's lives who are NOT related to your life.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

i'm not evading. in fact, i supporting an alternative solution which has already been circulated in main stream media - civil union instead of marriage.

which means that you are still letting your prejudice messing with other people's lives who are NOT related to your life.

[__earth]

no. its called protecting the rights of the majority. if you noticed, civil union offer no limited freedom to gays, so no rights violation.

[__earth]

no. its called protecting the rights of the majority. if you noticed, civil union offer no limited freedom to gays, so no rights violation.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

i agree with __earth. why do gays want to be married?

marriage is the religious way of legalizing (in terms of religious laws) sexual intercourse between a man and a woman. i dont think there is any religion that allows marriage with the same sex.

so, if gays want to get married, they'd already be objecting to the rules of religion. therefore, why the hell do they want to get married in the first place if they don't intend to go by the rules of religion (any religion in this case) since marriage is a bond to allow sexual intercourse between man and wife(i said this already...didn't i). they dont have to get married because they're already doing something wrong (according to religion).

to me, getting married is just symbolic for the gays. they want to "reassure" themselves that what they are doing is right (or they think is right)...but in fact, is unnatural.

just by looking at the human anatomy/body, you can see that a man and another man (or woman and another woman) don't go together. it was not meant for a men's "private part" (too many names...you can call it whatever you want) to go in through the back door. and where is a woman suppose to insert her "thing" (again...you can use whatever name you are familiar with)? dildos are not natural.

but, a man and a woman is a perfect match.its all "there" and "proper". i know you've got to agree with this (especially those who took biology or have watched any "poron" flicks...i'm not saying i did).


again, my friend, you assume that everyone believes in only Christianity/Islam/Judaism,

who do gays wanna be marry? what's wrong with that? who are we to question that>?? we are not gay after all, how do we know?

it's just like asking, why do i want to marrry? probably it;s the same reason.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

i agree with __earth. why do gays want to be married?

marriage is the religious way of legalizing (in terms of religious laws) sexual intercourse between a man and a woman. i dont think there is any religion that allows marriage with the same sex.

so, if gays want to get married, they'd already be objecting to the rules of religion. therefore, why the hell do they want to get married in the first place if they don't intend to go by the rules of religion (any religion in this case) since marriage is a bond to allow sexual intercourse between man and wife(i said this already...didn't i). they dont have to get married because they're already doing something wrong (according to religion).

to me, getting married is just symbolic for the gays. they want to "reassure" themselves that what they are doing is right (or they think is right)...but in fact, is unnatural.

just by looking at the human anatomy/body, you can see that a man and another man (or woman and another woman) don't go together. it was not meant for a men's "private part" (too many names...you can call it whatever you want) to go in through the back door. and where is a woman suppose to insert her "thing" (again...you can use whatever name you are familiar with)? dildos are not natural.

but, a man and a woman is a perfect match.its all "there" and "proper". i know you've got to agree with this (especially those who took biology or have watched any "poron" flicks...i'm not saying i did).


again, my friend, you assume that everyone believes in only Christianity/Islam/Judaism,

who do gays wanna be marry? what's wrong with that? who are we to question that>?? we are not gay after all, how do we know?

it's just like asking, why do i want to marrry? probably it;s the same reason.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

no. its called protecting the rights of the majority. if you noticed, civil union offer no limited freedom to gays, so no rights violation.

so u claim a sense of SUPERIORITY of the majority. how will gay marriage "threaten" the majority's rights?

please, no more use of SUPERIORISM.

if u want to go by majority, then it;s OK not to grant the blacks the equal status because they are blacks.

eg: the blacks should go to the "black" bathroom coz if they go to the white's bathroom, they are "threatening" the white's rights to go to bathroom. interestinhg

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

no. its called protecting the rights of the majority. if you noticed, civil union offer no limited freedom to gays, so no rights violation.

so u claim a sense of SUPERIORITY of the majority. how will gay marriage "threaten" the majority's rights?

please, no more use of SUPERIORISM.

if u want to go by majority, then it;s OK not to grant the blacks the equal status because they are blacks.

eg: the blacks should go to the "black" bathroom coz if they go to the white's bathroom, they are "threatening" the white's rights to go to bathroom. interestinhg

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

one can even choose not to have any religions.

please do NOT generalize.

Plus, maybe you should check on Buddhism being okay with homosexual practices, cause I have doubt on that. Ask a monk about it, will he say that "s'all good y'all"? Will he? Tell me...



hope u can show some respect to my knowledge in Buddhism as a Buddhist.

i dont mean to insult anyone, in fact, if i do that, i am insulting myself not being able to be a good practitioner.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

one can even choose not to have any religions.

please do NOT generalize.

Plus, maybe you should check on Buddhism being okay with homosexual practices, cause I have doubt on that. Ask a monk about it, will he say that "s'all good y'all"? Will he? Tell me...



hope u can show some respect to my knowledge in Buddhism as a Buddhist.

i dont mean to insult anyone, in fact, if i do that, i am insulting myself not being able to be a good practitioner.

[mercsinc]

btw, are you gay? just wanted to know...

[mercsinc]

btw, are you gay? just wanted to know...

[sanghanuman]

again, my friend, you assume that everyone believes in only Christianity/Islam/Judaism,


But the problem that becomes the issue here is that a majority of gays that are in question here in fact, are Christians. What say you?

[sanghanuman]

again, my friend, you assume that everyone believes in only Christianity/Islam/Judaism,


But the problem that becomes the issue here is that a majority of gays that are in question here in fact, are Christians. What say you?

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

btw, are you gay? just wanted to know...

interesting question. how about u? do u have the tendency to be a gay?

maybe those people who post their messages supporting gay marriage should be asked the same question. see what they will repon


I am just a human being--wanting to support other human beings like me from oppression. as simple as that. i dont have to be a gay to do that. just like a person don't have to be black to be supprting black rights.


jz to let u know, i hope to be a nun.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

btw, are you gay? just wanted to know...

interesting question. how about u? do u have the tendency to be a gay?

maybe those people who post their messages supporting gay marriage should be asked the same question. see what they will repon


I am just a human being--wanting to support other human beings like me from oppression. as simple as that. i dont have to be a gay to do that. just like a person don't have to be black to be supprting black rights.


jz to let u know, i hope to be a nun.

[__earth]

well, marriage in a sense is private property.
granting it to everybody is like communism. the private property suddenly is nationalized to everybody. everybody enjoys it but does not own it.
so, go chairman mao?

[__earth]

well, marriage in a sense is private property.
granting it to everybody is like communism. the private property suddenly is nationalized to everybody. everybody enjoys it but does not own it.
so, go chairman mao?

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

well, marriage in a sense is private property.
granting it to everybody is like communism. the private property suddenly is nationalized to everybody. everybody enjoys it but does not own it.
so, go chairman mao?

haha which means women is your private property. and men is my private property.

your parrallel does not make any sense to me, to be honest.

do you NOT own Your marriage just because another guy who loves his boyfriend own his boyfriend/marriage???

wow this is hard to understand?

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

well, marriage in a sense is private property.
granting it to everybody is like communism. the private property suddenly is nationalized to everybody. everybody enjoys it but does not own it.
so, go chairman mao?

haha which means women is your private property. and men is my private property.

your parrallel does not make any sense to me, to be honest.

do you NOT own Your marriage just because another guy who loves his boyfriend own his boyfriend/marriage???

wow this is hard to understand?

[sanghanuman]

And yeah, dont take my question personally. I don't mean to challenge you. I just need proof, and you told me to find it myself, which is cool. I might not know where to start (hoping that you would be a good source), but I'll work on it.

Lay the heat.

[sanghanuman]

And yeah, dont take my question personally. I don't mean to challenge you. I just need proof, and you told me to find it myself, which is cool. I might not know where to start (hoping that you would be a good source), but I'll work on it.

Lay the heat.

[__earth]

you see, the owner is a collective, not an individual.
gay collective can have it, but do it civil union style. dont drag religion into it.

[__earth]

you see, the owner is a collective, not an individual.
gay collective can have it, but do it civil union style. dont drag religion into it.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

will you divorce your family because some other people choose to love some other people not related to you??

this is so interestin.

i am wondering should i continue posting here. seems like there are some insensitive messages posted here questioning some unrelated stuff. (earth, i am not saying u)

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

will you divorce your family because some other people choose to love some other people not related to you??

this is so interestin.

i am wondering should i continue posting here. seems like there are some insensitive messages posted here questioning some unrelated stuff. (earth, i am not saying u)

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

you see, the owner is a collective, not an individual.


i am completing losing your train of thought...your wife is OWN COLLECTIVELY???

that's so scary.

i have to go. tired of fighting oppression.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

you see, the owner is a collective, not an individual.


i am completing losing your train of thought...your wife is OWN COLLECTIVELY???

that's so scary.

i have to go. tired of fighting oppression.

[mercsinc]

btw, are you gay? just wanted to know...

interesting question. how about u? do u have the tendency to be a gay?

maybe those people who post their messages supporting gay marriage should be asked the same question. see what they will repon

I am just a human being--wanting to support other human beings like me from oppression. as simple as that. i dont have to be a gay to do that. just like a person don't have to be black to be supprting black rights.

jz to let u know, i hope to be a nun.

nope, not gay. just wanted to know since you're really rooting for the gay cause. and if you were gay, that would be enough of a reason to support it. but you're right, you dont have to be black to go against black oppression.

[mercsinc]

btw, are you gay? just wanted to know...

interesting question. how about u? do u have the tendency to be a gay?

maybe those people who post their messages supporting gay marriage should be asked the same question. see what they will repon

I am just a human being--wanting to support other human beings like me from oppression. as simple as that. i dont have to be a gay to do that. just like a person don't have to be black to be supprting black rights.

jz to let u know, i hope to be a nun.

nope, not gay. just wanted to know since you're really rooting for the gay cause. and if you were gay, that would be enough of a reason to support it. but you're right, you dont have to be black to go against black oppression.

[topdog]

But the problem that becomes the issue here is that a majority of gays that are in question here in fact, are Christians. What say you?

i think the issue here is that the gays in question are IN a mostly christian country, not that the gays themselves are mostly christian. they are not asking for permission from the church to marry. what they want is for their union to be recognized by law so that the same benefits enjoyed by conventional married couples would be afforded them, e.g. tax breaks.

[topdog]

But the problem that becomes the issue here is that a majority of gays that are in question here in fact, are Christians. What say you?

i think the issue here is that the gays in question are IN a mostly christian country, not that the gays themselves are mostly christian. they are not asking for permission from the church to marry. what they want is for their union to be recognized by law so that the same benefits enjoyed by conventional married couples would be afforded them, e.g. tax breaks.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

And yeah, dont take my question personally. I don't mean to challenge you. I just need proof, and you told me to find it myself, which is cool. I might not know where to start (hoping that you would be a good source), but I'll work on it.

Lay the heat.

alright, since i have a little time, go to
http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Heights/2885/homobud.html

dont worry. i am being very cool constantly. time to meditate before i sleep. night!

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

And yeah, dont take my question personally. I don't mean to challenge you. I just need proof, and you told me to find it myself, which is cool. I might not know where to start (hoping that you would be a good source), but I'll work on it.

Lay the heat.

alright, since i have a little time, go to
http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Heights/2885/homobud.html

dont worry. i am being very cool constantly. time to meditate before i sleep. night!

[sanghanuman]

i think the issue here is that the gays in question are IN a mostly christian country, not that the gays themselves are mostly christian. they are not asking for permission from the church to marry. what they want is for their union to be recognized by law so that the same benefits enjoyed by conventional married couples would be afforded them, e.g. tax breaks.

You are right.

[sanghanuman]

i think the issue here is that the gays in question are IN a mostly christian country, not that the gays themselves are mostly christian. they are not asking for permission from the church to marry. what they want is for their union to be recognized by law so that the same benefits enjoyed by conventional married couples would be afforded them, e.g. tax breaks.

You are right.

[__earth]

no, the term marriage is a private property to hetero collective.
though the defination may not exclusively owned to a collective.

[__earth]

no, the term marriage is a private property to hetero collective.
though the defination may not exclusively owned to a collective.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

btw, are you gay? just wanted to know...

interesting question. how about u? do u have the tendency to be a gay?

maybe those people who post their messages supporting gay marriage should be asked the same question. see what they will repon

I am just a human being--wanting to support other human beings like me from oppression. as simple as that. i dont have to be a gay to do that. just like a person don't have to be black to be supprting black rights.

jz to let u know, i hope to be a nun.

nope, not gay. just wanted to know since you're really rooting for the gay cause. and if you were gay, that would be enough of a reason to support it. but you're right, you dont have to be black to go against black oppression.

just for your info, i am doing internship with the NAS to petition to the UN to defend the rights of speech in Vietnam (for a Vietnamese doctor)

also, i am a member of the Black alliance,

and member of the women's coalition.

who am i then??

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

btw, are you gay? just wanted to know...

interesting question. how about u? do u have the tendency to be a gay?

maybe those people who post their messages supporting gay marriage should be asked the same question. see what they will repon

I am just a human being--wanting to support other human beings like me from oppression. as simple as that. i dont have to be a gay to do that. just like a person don't have to be black to be supprting black rights.

jz to let u know, i hope to be a nun.

nope, not gay. just wanted to know since you're really rooting for the gay cause. and if you were gay, that would be enough of a reason to support it. but you're right, you dont have to be black to go against black oppression.

just for your info, i am doing internship with the NAS to petition to the UN to defend the rights of speech in Vietnam (for a Vietnamese doctor)

also, i am a member of the Black alliance,

and member of the women's coalition.

who am i then??

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

no, the term marriage is a private property to hetero collective.
though the defination may not exclusively owned to a collective.

if i continue to respond to this, i will have to fall back on my arguments of superiorism. sick of repeating.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

no, the term marriage is a private property to hetero collective.
though the defination may not exclusively owned to a collective.

if i continue to respond to this, i will have to fall back on my arguments of superiorism. sick of repeating.

[mercsinc]

no, the term marriage is a private property to hetero collective.
though the defination may not exclusively owned to a collective.

what? explaination please...

[mercsinc]

no, the term marriage is a private property to hetero collective.
though the defination may not exclusively owned to a collective.

what? explaination please...

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

no, the term marriage is a private property to hetero collective.
though the defination may not exclusively owned to a collective.

if i continue to respond to this, i will have to fall back on my arguments of superiorism. sick of repeating.

to be honest, i lose your train of thoughts.


lets jz be a bit more compassionate, and treat other beings as equal.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

no, the term marriage is a private property to hetero collective.
though the defination may not exclusively owned to a collective.

if i continue to respond to this, i will have to fall back on my arguments of superiorism. sick of repeating.

to be honest, i lose your train of thoughts.


lets jz be a bit more compassionate, and treat other beings as equal.

[mercsinc]

btw, are you gay? just wanted to know...

interesting question. how about u? do u have the tendency to be a gay?

maybe those people who post their messages supporting gay marriage should be asked the same question. see what they will repon

I am just a human being--wanting to support other human beings like me from oppression. as simple as that. i dont have to be a gay to do that. just like a person don't have to be black to be supprting black rights.

jz to let u know, i hope to be a nun.

nope, not gay. just wanted to know since you're really rooting for the gay cause. and if you were gay, that would be enough of a reason to support it. but you're right, you dont have to be black to go against black oppression.

just for your info, i am doing internship with the NAS to petition to the UN to defend the rights of speech in Vietnam (for a Vietnamese doctor)

also, i am a member of the Black alliance,

and member of the women's coalition.

who am i then??

looks like you're a "black vietnamese woman" working for the UN :lol:

just joking...the heat in here is intense...got to cool it down a little...

[mercsinc]

btw, are you gay? just wanted to know...

interesting question. how about u? do u have the tendency to be a gay?

maybe those people who post their messages supporting gay marriage should be asked the same question. see what they will repon

I am just a human being--wanting to support other human beings like me from oppression. as simple as that. i dont have to be a gay to do that. just like a person don't have to be black to be supprting black rights.

jz to let u know, i hope to be a nun.

nope, not gay. just wanted to know since you're really rooting for the gay cause. and if you were gay, that would be enough of a reason to support it. but you're right, you dont have to be black to go against black oppression.

just for your info, i am doing internship with the NAS to petition to the UN to defend the rights of speech in Vietnam (for a Vietnamese doctor)

also, i am a member of the Black alliance,

and member of the women's coalition.

who am i then??

looks like you're a "black vietnamese woman" working for the UN :lol:

just joking...the heat in here is intense...got to cool it down a little...