View Full Version : Proton Gen. 2
jiinjoo
07-02-2004, 10:52 AM
New car! New car!!
link here (modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1076&mode=&order=0&thold=0)
jiinjoo
07-02-2004, 10:52 AM
New car! New car!!
link here (modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1076&mode=&order=0&thold=0)
this is judging from external appearances only but from the sides and back, the car looks somehow familiar. from the front tho it looks pretty unique. now there can be no doubt when a proton gen 2 crashes into you head on :P
this is judging from external appearances only but from the sides and back, the car looks somehow familiar. from the front tho it looks pretty unique. now there can be no doubt when a proton gen 2 crashes into you head on :P
FiAnS
07-02-2004, 11:43 AM
No doubt, the new Proton Gen-2 looks different from the other models. Perhaps, the time has come to revolutionize the national cars not just externally but engine-wise as well. Give Proton some time and we'll see how it goes from there...
FiAnS
07-02-2004, 11:43 AM
No doubt, the new Proton Gen-2 looks different from the other models. Perhaps, the time has come to revolutionize the national cars not just externally but engine-wise as well. Give Proton some time and we'll see how it goes from there...
bachok83
07-02-2004, 12:25 PM
fians,
it's good to hear your positive response.
however, if we wanna find our new identity, we cant just simply use people's design. For example, the new model of gen.2 is just a direct copy of Acura RSX.
for me, it's just a copy... nothing else, and possibly we are going to be like that till 20 to 40 years more...
bachok83
07-02-2004, 12:25 PM
fians,
it's good to hear your positive response.
however, if we wanna find our new identity, we cant just simply use people's design. For example, the new model of gen.2 is just a direct copy of Acura RSX.
for me, it's just a copy... nothing else, and possibly we are going to be like that till 20 to 40 years more...
acura ah thats why it was so familiar
acura ah thats why it was so familiar
With all talk of Proton being a "national success", it's actually pretty disappointing to see Proton not being able to compete on equal grounds with other car manufacturers, even after decades in operation. Even in the post-Afta period, Proton (and other Malaysian-made automobiles) are still protected and given significant advantage.
Without tax, a BMW would cost about RM 100k (roughly the price of a Perdana). Would anyone buy a Perdana over a BMW??
It's time we demand high-quality and cheaper cars.
With all talk of Proton being a "national success", it's actually pretty disappointing to see Proton not being able to compete on equal grounds with other car manufacturers, even after decades in operation. Even in the post-Afta period, Proton (and other Malaysian-made automobiles) are still protected and given significant advantage.
Without tax, a BMW would cost about RM 100k (roughly the price of a Perdana). Would anyone buy a Perdana over a BMW??
It's time we demand high-quality and cheaper cars.
if comparably priced id go for the bmw. national pride notwithstanding: i dont feel safe in a proton :P
if comparably priced id go for the bmw. national pride notwithstanding: i dont feel safe in a proton :P
jiinjoo
07-02-2004, 06:40 PM
Safety - hmm, never heard them use that word in their advertisements before...
But nonetheless, it's a New Car!! :)
If you ask me I'd still say Proton is a "success", perhaps I was coming from the other spectrum - i.e. look, the cars work! We are actually making ... CARS! Not your everyday kereta bajak, but a completely reasonable, with all the basic features, reasonably designed, runs for at least a few years, and modestly cheap CAR!
But then to "compete", that's a different playing field altogether. Depending on how Proton strategise, they can choose to go into the market that to fight with the Corollas and the Civics, or move further to rank with BMW, but they can also try say the Indonesia market and compete with Kijang.
jiinjoo
07-02-2004, 06:40 PM
Safety - hmm, never heard them use that word in their advertisements before...
But nonetheless, it's a New Car!! :)
If you ask me I'd still say Proton is a "success", perhaps I was coming from the other spectrum - i.e. look, the cars work! We are actually making ... CARS! Not your everyday kereta bajak, but a completely reasonable, with all the basic features, reasonably designed, runs for at least a few years, and modestly cheap CAR!
But then to "compete", that's a different playing field altogether. Depending on how Proton strategise, they can choose to go into the market that to fight with the Corollas and the Civics, or move further to rank with BMW, but they can also try say the Indonesia market and compete with Kijang.
DecentMerson
08-02-2004, 01:36 AM
just a new car..... and it is proton..... :(
it is another hybridisation of others cars.....
www.proton.com.my
DecentMerson
08-02-2004, 01:36 AM
just a new car..... and it is proton..... :(
it is another hybridisation of others cars.....
www.proton.com.my
dinna_g
08-02-2004, 01:52 AM
You guys should give Proton more credit.. It isn't easy to design a car.. Even if it's a modification from another car.. Let's support our local products, be it a modification from another product.. At least we're trying..
I like jinjoo's positive response. FYI, to compete in Indonesian market, you need to build a factory there. Just so you know, McD had a hard time to get in Indonesian market as they refused to use local beef and potatoes at the very first place. I think it wasn't until mid 90s they managed to come up with a deal to open their chains in Indo. But proton is trying.. If they managed to get a deal and what not in Indo, I'm sure we can see proton on their streets at some point.
dinna_g
08-02-2004, 01:52 AM
You guys should give Proton more credit.. It isn't easy to design a car.. Even if it's a modification from another car.. Let's support our local products, be it a modification from another product.. At least we're trying..
I like jinjoo's positive response. FYI, to compete in Indonesian market, you need to build a factory there. Just so you know, McD had a hard time to get in Indonesian market as they refused to use local beef and potatoes at the very first place. I think it wasn't until mid 90s they managed to come up with a deal to open their chains in Indo. But proton is trying.. If they managed to get a deal and what not in Indo, I'm sure we can see proton on their streets at some point.
chenchow
08-02-2004, 07:48 AM
I would first suggest that we take the analogy of Proton like human being, since Proton is about 20 years old right? What is the age of Toyota, GM, BMW, Mercedes, Honda etc? 50? 100? but definitely they are much "older" right? So, if you are comparing Proton and all those other makers, it would be as if we are comparing us with our Professors, who have been much more experienced and knowledgable in it.
We, at our this age, have been trying our very best to learn right? The same goes to Proton... Remember when we go through Primary school, secondary school and now, how many % of those things are actually created by ourselves? Perhaps a lot of knowledge that we have are researched by others. The same goes to Proton. They are trying to ramp up their R&D, at the same time, they are on their learning stage... You can't expect a 20-year old studying in Electrical Engineering, to be better than a 70-year faculty researching in EE for 40 years already... The same situation persists over here.
On subsidy from Government, lets look it this way. We, as students, do we have help to further improve ourselves. We have a lot of facilities, help and teaching from faculties and other industry people to help us develop. The same goes to Proton. They are learning. Of course, we can't expect mediocre for a long time, but I think many of us have used Proton at least sometimes and I think after all, it is not too bad right? You can get to your destinations safely. It is pretty reliable too right?
Yeah, some of Proton parts are copied, or some of it are taken from other models, but isn't it called learning? Say we want to get involved in certain thing, we learn from those that are experts in it right? Our initial research may not be entirely ours right? We take a llittle bit from here and there, as we build up our experience to improve ourselves...
And after all, not many countries can actually build a national car themselves. There are only about 11 countries that can build an entire car, and today Malaysia is one of the 11 countries.
If you think that Proton is not developing well enough, not having creative design of its own, not having innovation of its own, challenge yourself to develop a better design, get a job with Proton and make your design a reality! A lot of ReCom members are top talented people, so this is not impossible! So, instead of complaining that Proton is substandard, why don't we try to learn and help innovate our national car industry!
chenchow
08-02-2004, 07:48 AM
I would first suggest that we take the analogy of Proton like human being, since Proton is about 20 years old right? What is the age of Toyota, GM, BMW, Mercedes, Honda etc? 50? 100? but definitely they are much "older" right? So, if you are comparing Proton and all those other makers, it would be as if we are comparing us with our Professors, who have been much more experienced and knowledgable in it.
We, at our this age, have been trying our very best to learn right? The same goes to Proton... Remember when we go through Primary school, secondary school and now, how many % of those things are actually created by ourselves? Perhaps a lot of knowledge that we have are researched by others. The same goes to Proton. They are trying to ramp up their R&D, at the same time, they are on their learning stage... You can't expect a 20-year old studying in Electrical Engineering, to be better than a 70-year faculty researching in EE for 40 years already... The same situation persists over here.
On subsidy from Government, lets look it this way. We, as students, do we have help to further improve ourselves. We have a lot of facilities, help and teaching from faculties and other industry people to help us develop. The same goes to Proton. They are learning. Of course, we can't expect mediocre for a long time, but I think many of us have used Proton at least sometimes and I think after all, it is not too bad right? You can get to your destinations safely. It is pretty reliable too right?
Yeah, some of Proton parts are copied, or some of it are taken from other models, but isn't it called learning? Say we want to get involved in certain thing, we learn from those that are experts in it right? Our initial research may not be entirely ours right? We take a llittle bit from here and there, as we build up our experience to improve ourselves...
And after all, not many countries can actually build a national car themselves. There are only about 11 countries that can build an entire car, and today Malaysia is one of the 11 countries.
If you think that Proton is not developing well enough, not having creative design of its own, not having innovation of its own, challenge yourself to develop a better design, get a job with Proton and make your design a reality! A lot of ReCom members are top talented people, so this is not impossible! So, instead of complaining that Proton is substandard, why don't we try to learn and help innovate our national car industry!
what about the korean cars like hyundai?
what about the korean cars like hyundai?
masterof_none
08-02-2004, 10:51 AM
If you think that Proton is not developing well enough, not having creative design of its own, not having innovation of its own, challenge yourself to develop a better design, get a job with Proton and make your design a reality! A lot of ReCom members are top talented people, so this is not impossible! So, instead of complaining that Proton is substandard, why don't we try to learn and help innovate our national car industry!
Or better still, come up with a brand new car that you think can compete with Proton in Malaysian Market and compete with all the big guys in the global market.
sounds ridiculous?...it's actually not impossible.
But despite of my support of Proton, one caveat:
auto industry is extremely competitive.
Looking at the history of British Leyland Motor Corp (http://www.histomobile.com/histomob/presmark.asp?chat=25&lan=2) is enough to come up with the conclusion that it's not worth the competition.
However, it doesn't mean that Proton will continue to be marginalized in the auto market.
If Proton is wise enough to steal the niche market, it would survive.
(take a look at sleek design of VW for example, and compare the new Beatle with the original 'kereta kodok').
qedx, if you're wondering how Hyundai (or Kia) can be very successful companies, take a look at this:
Hyundai
Hyundai Motor was established in 1967 by the Hyundai group. However, for a long period it was just producing cars based on the design supplied by Ford UK. The first self-developed model was the ?74 Pony, but under the guidance of Mitsubishi. Engines also came from the Japanese design, while the styling was penned by Italdesign. The car earned Hyundai the name as the biggest Korean car maker which is still unchallenged today.?
The second generation Pony of 1982 marked another milestone : the first large scale export. Like the Japanese, Korean?s industry was (and still is) very export-oriented. The Pony small car, benefited by the wage advantage of Korea labours, stormed the Canadian small car market in 1983. The world started to realise the rise of another Eastern car making nation.?
The first self-designed engine appeared in 1991, which signalled the "real" autonomy of R&D. Sales continued to grow in the whole 90?s as model range expanded and quality improved. In 1998, Hyundai took over the bankrupted Kia.?
Kia
Kia started producing cars in 1974 under Peugeot and Fiat?s licenses. In 1986. it partnered with Ford, produced the Festiva (Pride) for Ford. The 1992 Sephia and next year?s Sportage SUV reflected the independence of the company which started exporting cars under its own name. It became the third largest Korean car maker but over-expansion was hit by the Asian economy crisis in 1998. Kia bankrupted and was acquired by Hyundai in the same year.
SOurce: http://autozine.kyul.net/Manufacturer/Korea.htm
masterof_none
08-02-2004, 10:51 AM
If you think that Proton is not developing well enough, not having creative design of its own, not having innovation of its own, challenge yourself to develop a better design, get a job with Proton and make your design a reality! A lot of ReCom members are top talented people, so this is not impossible! So, instead of complaining that Proton is substandard, why don't we try to learn and help innovate our national car industry!
Or better still, come up with a brand new car that you think can compete with Proton in Malaysian Market and compete with all the big guys in the global market.
sounds ridiculous?...it's actually not impossible.
But despite of my support of Proton, one caveat:
auto industry is extremely competitive.
Looking at the history of British Leyland Motor Corp (http://www.histomobile.com/histomob/presmark.asp?chat=25&lan=2) is enough to come up with the conclusion that it's not worth the competition.
However, it doesn't mean that Proton will continue to be marginalized in the auto market.
If Proton is wise enough to steal the niche market, it would survive.
(take a look at sleek design of VW for example, and compare the new Beatle with the original 'kereta kodok').
qedx, if you're wondering how Hyundai (or Kia) can be very successful companies, take a look at this:
Hyundai
Hyundai Motor was established in 1967 by the Hyundai group. However, for a long period it was just producing cars based on the design supplied by Ford UK. The first self-developed model was the ?74 Pony, but under the guidance of Mitsubishi. Engines also came from the Japanese design, while the styling was penned by Italdesign. The car earned Hyundai the name as the biggest Korean car maker which is still unchallenged today.?
The second generation Pony of 1982 marked another milestone : the first large scale export. Like the Japanese, Korean?s industry was (and still is) very export-oriented. The Pony small car, benefited by the wage advantage of Korea labours, stormed the Canadian small car market in 1983. The world started to realise the rise of another Eastern car making nation.?
The first self-designed engine appeared in 1991, which signalled the "real" autonomy of R&D. Sales continued to grow in the whole 90?s as model range expanded and quality improved. In 1998, Hyundai took over the bankrupted Kia.?
Kia
Kia started producing cars in 1974 under Peugeot and Fiat?s licenses. In 1986. it partnered with Ford, produced the Festiva (Pride) for Ford. The 1992 Sephia and next year?s Sportage SUV reflected the independence of the company which started exporting cars under its own name. It became the third largest Korean car maker but over-expansion was hit by the Asian economy crisis in 1998. Kia bankrupted and was acquired by Hyundai in the same year.
SOurce: http://autozine.kyul.net/Manufacturer/Korea.htm
dinna_g
08-02-2004, 03:03 PM
I would first suggest that we take the analogy of Proton like human being, since Proton is about 20 years old right? What is the age of Toyota, GM, BMW, Mercedes, Honda etc? 50? 100? but definitely they are much "older" right? So, if you are comparing Proton and all those other makers, it would be as if we are comparing us with our Professors, who have been much more experienced and knowledgable in it.
I really like your analogy... and seriously, I do agree.. rather than complaining, we should make a difference to proton if we think they need to improve..
One thing I want to point out.. have you guys ever heard of proton waja? if you haven't look at waja lately, look again! (ok nih curik from ford nye commercial :P).. did i mention it was designed by proton and only proton? it wasn't adopted from any other model? oh yea, it's just one design but at least they did come up with one design. as chenchow pointed out, it's a learning process.. so we're not falling too far behind..
and we're also starting to assemble (sp?) some cars e.g. honda, toyota in malaysia. so our automotive industry isn't far behind, in fact it might be ahead of any other third world country.. oh yea, no offense to singaporeans, but singapore is considered a developed country but they don't even have their own national car. so we should be proud of ourselves. don't compare ourselves with bmw or mercedes, they are making f1 engines and we're not even close..
dinna_g
08-02-2004, 03:03 PM
I would first suggest that we take the analogy of Proton like human being, since Proton is about 20 years old right? What is the age of Toyota, GM, BMW, Mercedes, Honda etc? 50? 100? but definitely they are much "older" right? So, if you are comparing Proton and all those other makers, it would be as if we are comparing us with our Professors, who have been much more experienced and knowledgable in it.
I really like your analogy... and seriously, I do agree.. rather than complaining, we should make a difference to proton if we think they need to improve..
One thing I want to point out.. have you guys ever heard of proton waja? if you haven't look at waja lately, look again! (ok nih curik from ford nye commercial :P).. did i mention it was designed by proton and only proton? it wasn't adopted from any other model? oh yea, it's just one design but at least they did come up with one design. as chenchow pointed out, it's a learning process.. so we're not falling too far behind..
and we're also starting to assemble (sp?) some cars e.g. honda, toyota in malaysia. so our automotive industry isn't far behind, in fact it might be ahead of any other third world country.. oh yea, no offense to singaporeans, but singapore is considered a developed country but they don't even have their own national car. so we should be proud of ourselves. don't compare ourselves with bmw or mercedes, they are making f1 engines and we're not even close..
DecentMerson
08-02-2004, 11:52 PM
actually, is not about the credits and support we give, is about the attitude the workers in the EON... and the overprotected situation and environment the government has created to protect proton...
This is not the way to enhance the country's technology..... Look at Creative Technology.... Creative was founded in Singapore in July 1, 1981.... and now....it is in the NASDAQ since last year or 2 years ago if i'm not wrong....
look at the price, if it is not because of the high percentage of tax on imported cars, proton is really dead meat...
without the tax, korean made cars are just slightly above locally assembled automobiles....and even the Japanese cars are slightly higher.... but after considering the performances and technology and repair rate and after sales (2nd hand price)....
proton is really...
hope that Gen.2 live up to its name and give its rivals a challenge...
:D :) :o :lol:
DecentMerson
08-02-2004, 11:52 PM
actually, is not about the credits and support we give, is about the attitude the workers in the EON... and the overprotected situation and environment the government has created to protect proton...
This is not the way to enhance the country's technology..... Look at Creative Technology.... Creative was founded in Singapore in July 1, 1981.... and now....it is in the NASDAQ since last year or 2 years ago if i'm not wrong....
look at the price, if it is not because of the high percentage of tax on imported cars, proton is really dead meat...
without the tax, korean made cars are just slightly above locally assembled automobiles....and even the Japanese cars are slightly higher.... but after considering the performances and technology and repair rate and after sales (2nd hand price)....
proton is really...
hope that Gen.2 live up to its name and give its rivals a challenge...
:D :) :o :lol:
masterof_none
09-02-2004, 12:56 AM
This is not the way to enhance the country's technology..... Look at Creative Technology.... Creative was founded in Singapore in July 1, 1981.... and now....it is in the NASDAQ since last year or 2 years ago if i'm not wrong....
By bringing the Creative case ,I agree with your analogy about the local industry can actually compete in the global market
However, now, you're assuming that competition and nature of the business in consumer electronics is identical to
auto industry, which is not.
For example, look at the capital spending incurred for a production of a car. Let's compare the cost of replacement of machinery.
The cost of replacing a machine that we used in manufacturing cars,
and that machine we used to produce small digital devices is not the same. and whenever we come up with new design, we may need to replace the machine.
look at the price, if it is not because of the high percentage of tax on imported cars, proton is really dead meat...
without the tax, korean made cars are just slightly above locally assembled automobiles....and even the Japanese cars are slightly higher.... but after considering the performances and technology and repair rate and after sales (2nd hand price)....
proton is really...
Although this argument is OK, we should consider the steel industry in the US that is still protected. Why?...because of national interest.
Every country usually has some industry that they want to protect.
If the US protecting their steel and farmers, well, in our case,
it's our car: Proton.
If we don't have any interest in Proton, or Malaysians simply giving up in protecting Proton, or simply don't want to be proud of Proton as a national car, we should create another brand new car that can replace Proton as a national car. Anyone up to the challange?
masterof_none
09-02-2004, 12:56 AM
This is not the way to enhance the country's technology..... Look at Creative Technology.... Creative was founded in Singapore in July 1, 1981.... and now....it is in the NASDAQ since last year or 2 years ago if i'm not wrong....
By bringing the Creative case ,I agree with your analogy about the local industry can actually compete in the global market
However, now, you're assuming that competition and nature of the business in consumer electronics is identical to
auto industry, which is not.
For example, look at the capital spending incurred for a production of a car. Let's compare the cost of replacement of machinery.
The cost of replacing a machine that we used in manufacturing cars,
and that machine we used to produce small digital devices is not the same. and whenever we come up with new design, we may need to replace the machine.
look at the price, if it is not because of the high percentage of tax on imported cars, proton is really dead meat...
without the tax, korean made cars are just slightly above locally assembled automobiles....and even the Japanese cars are slightly higher.... but after considering the performances and technology and repair rate and after sales (2nd hand price)....
proton is really...
Although this argument is OK, we should consider the steel industry in the US that is still protected. Why?...because of national interest.
Every country usually has some industry that they want to protect.
If the US protecting their steel and farmers, well, in our case,
it's our car: Proton.
If we don't have any interest in Proton, or Malaysians simply giving up in protecting Proton, or simply don't want to be proud of Proton as a national car, we should create another brand new car that can replace Proton as a national car. Anyone up to the challange?
jiinjoo
09-02-2004, 02:12 AM
And just to complete both chenchow and masterof_none's story, think of the analogy of Proton being brought up by the Malaysia Government, its parent. Your parents probably didn't "declare" one fine day, "Ok, you're 21, bye bye!" and let you live and die on your own. They probably give you autonomy step by step, and infuse you with sufficient financial resources until you can earn enough yourself to feed yourself. They will also give you sufficient incentive to contiue working hard etc.
A question about R&D: after finding out that the government is sending students to (what's the name of the school again? in LA) US to learn about avation, I was wondering if they did the same for the automotive industry? Are there students in US or Europe or Japan (especially the car making countries) studying how to make cars?
Btw, we protect a lot more things than just Proton, and US protect a lot more than just steel and farmers. This is one of the keys that allows free markets to operate, without creating havoc in the world. Without tax barriers, institutionalized incentive programs, and explicit help to certain industries, the world economy will be at its knees before you can finish saying the word globalization.
Machine replacement isn't that bad actually. There's wearing off of the machines anyway. If the model is popular and they want to produce more, usually they have to make the model specific molds again. That's how to economize. If you want to make 100,000 cars, you put enough money to make a machine that can produce 100,000 cars (plus minus 100 maybe), after which the machine will be "depreciated" (accountant jargon) because it couldn't guarantee the same service level agreement anymore (e.g. if the machine is made to have an error of at most 1%, then after 100,000 cars, the machine might have more than 1% error). Since the materials that you put into the machine is expensive, you can't live with more than 1% error, then you need new machines.
Therefore, if the model is not popular, they will just stop making it. Hopefully they stop making it when the machines are worn out, not after the make the first batch of 10,000 only...
jiinjoo
09-02-2004, 02:12 AM
And just to complete both chenchow and masterof_none's story, think of the analogy of Proton being brought up by the Malaysia Government, its parent. Your parents probably didn't "declare" one fine day, "Ok, you're 21, bye bye!" and let you live and die on your own. They probably give you autonomy step by step, and infuse you with sufficient financial resources until you can earn enough yourself to feed yourself. They will also give you sufficient incentive to contiue working hard etc.
A question about R&D: after finding out that the government is sending students to (what's the name of the school again? in LA) US to learn about avation, I was wondering if they did the same for the automotive industry? Are there students in US or Europe or Japan (especially the car making countries) studying how to make cars?
Btw, we protect a lot more things than just Proton, and US protect a lot more than just steel and farmers. This is one of the keys that allows free markets to operate, without creating havoc in the world. Without tax barriers, institutionalized incentive programs, and explicit help to certain industries, the world economy will be at its knees before you can finish saying the word globalization.
Machine replacement isn't that bad actually. There's wearing off of the machines anyway. If the model is popular and they want to produce more, usually they have to make the model specific molds again. That's how to economize. If you want to make 100,000 cars, you put enough money to make a machine that can produce 100,000 cars (plus minus 100 maybe), after which the machine will be "depreciated" (accountant jargon) because it couldn't guarantee the same service level agreement anymore (e.g. if the machine is made to have an error of at most 1%, then after 100,000 cars, the machine might have more than 1% error). Since the materials that you put into the machine is expensive, you can't live with more than 1% error, then you need new machines.
Therefore, if the model is not popular, they will just stop making it. Hopefully they stop making it when the machines are worn out, not after the make the first batch of 10,000 only...
masterof_none
09-02-2004, 02:29 AM
A question about R&D: after finding out that the government is sending students to (what's the name of the school again? in LA) US to learn about avation, I was wondering if they did the same for the automotive industry? Are there students in US or Europe or Japan (especially the car making countries) studying how to make cars?
The school is Northrop, after one of the biggest Dept of Defense contractors: Northrop-Grumman.
yeah, I think those who are overseas and interested in cars can study or do some kind of research (maybe on your own). If we don't like Proton, why not come up with our own design?
even if not assemble actual car, try out drawing your own design and post at RECOm Creative Corner. If your design is potential enough to get the attention from Proton, we at ReCom will happily help you bring them to Proton.
Therefore, if the model is not popular, they will just stop making it. Hopefully they stop making it when the machines are worn out, not after the make the first batch of 10,000 only...
That's the issue. what if one model can't even make it break-even?
If it's a computer, we can just replace it with a new model
(like Apple Computer's Cube, which failed miserably).
But if it's a car, even it's not very succesful, you have to keep on going producing it, until it reaches break even point. (another accting term.)
Like, I'm still wondering why they keep producing this model called Proton Tiara ,even though not so many people use it. (I think they already stopped it,maybe).
masterof_none
09-02-2004, 02:29 AM
A question about R&D: after finding out that the government is sending students to (what's the name of the school again? in LA) US to learn about avation, I was wondering if they did the same for the automotive industry? Are there students in US or Europe or Japan (especially the car making countries) studying how to make cars?
The school is Northrop, after one of the biggest Dept of Defense contractors: Northrop-Grumman.
yeah, I think those who are overseas and interested in cars can study or do some kind of research (maybe on your own). If we don't like Proton, why not come up with our own design?
even if not assemble actual car, try out drawing your own design and post at RECOm Creative Corner. If your design is potential enough to get the attention from Proton, we at ReCom will happily help you bring them to Proton.
Therefore, if the model is not popular, they will just stop making it. Hopefully they stop making it when the machines are worn out, not after the make the first batch of 10,000 only...
That's the issue. what if one model can't even make it break-even?
If it's a computer, we can just replace it with a new model
(like Apple Computer's Cube, which failed miserably).
But if it's a car, even it's not very succesful, you have to keep on going producing it, until it reaches break even point. (another accting term.)
Like, I'm still wondering why they keep producing this model called Proton Tiara ,even though not so many people use it. (I think they already stopped it,maybe).
chenchow
09-02-2004, 05:20 AM
jiinjoo, our government actually does send a large number of students who are majoring in automative engineering to Germany, the country with a lot of great brands in automative.
Plus, I believe that Petronas does have some of its scholars who are very interested in car design and learn a lot on various aspects of car, be it electrical, mechanical etc, to be absorbed into Sauber team. Luke's roommate, Raizz, would be able to share with us more on this...
chenchow
09-02-2004, 05:20 AM
jiinjoo, our government actually does send a large number of students who are majoring in automative engineering to Germany, the country with a lot of great brands in automative.
Plus, I believe that Petronas does have some of its scholars who are very interested in car design and learn a lot on various aspects of car, be it electrical, mechanical etc, to be absorbed into Sauber team. Luke's roommate, Raizz, would be able to share with us more on this...
topdog
09-02-2004, 06:24 AM
Not a fan of Proton, but as some have pointed out, there are compelling reasons to continue supporting it.
BTW, does anyone know if they are still making Juara? (I think it's Juara, you know, the shoebox-like "mini van") That was one ugly vehicle.
topdog
09-02-2004, 06:24 AM
Not a fan of Proton, but as some have pointed out, there are compelling reasons to continue supporting it.
BTW, does anyone know if they are still making Juara? (I think it's Juara, you know, the shoebox-like "mini van") That was one ugly vehicle.
silverblue
09-02-2004, 09:14 AM
jiinjoo, our government actually does send a large number of students who are majoring in automative engineering to Germany, the country with a lot of great brands in automative.
Yeah, actually I know kelvinlym as a guy who's really crazy about cars and the automotive industry and he's now studying in Germany. And u can bet Germany is probably the best country to study automotive engineering, being a leader in that field.
So, if you are interested in developing the automotive industry in Malaysia, it's definitely a wise choice to go to Germany! ;)
silverblue
09-02-2004, 09:14 AM
jiinjoo, our government actually does send a large number of students who are majoring in automative engineering to Germany, the country with a lot of great brands in automative.
Yeah, actually I know kelvinlym as a guy who's really crazy about cars and the automotive industry and he's now studying in Germany. And u can bet Germany is probably the best country to study automotive engineering, being a leader in that field.
So, if you are interested in developing the automotive industry in Malaysia, it's definitely a wise choice to go to Germany! ;)
Schye
09-02-2004, 07:19 PM
about PERODUA here (not sure about Proton)
FYO every year, Perodua organises a special recruitment session in Japan to recruit students studying in Japan and they are recruiting around 20 persons every year. From this we can know that they are really looking for Malaysian talents who may help towards making the first 100% Malaysia car.
Maybe we should sometimes compare the new generation with the old ones and i am sure there are improvements :wink:
From only one choice - Proton Saga until we have choices more than a hand can count ...
Proton is STILL a teenager like ChenChow states and is STILL growing. So, why not give it mroe time. I believe one day, they will merdeka ;)
Schye
09-02-2004, 07:19 PM
about PERODUA here (not sure about Proton)
FYO every year, Perodua organises a special recruitment session in Japan to recruit students studying in Japan and they are recruiting around 20 persons every year. From this we can know that they are really looking for Malaysian talents who may help towards making the first 100% Malaysia car.
Maybe we should sometimes compare the new generation with the old ones and i am sure there are improvements :wink:
From only one choice - Proton Saga until we have choices more than a hand can count ...
Proton is STILL a teenager like ChenChow states and is STILL growing. So, why not give it mroe time. I believe one day, they will merdeka ;)
I think Proton Gen 2 is seriously not bad. The ad on TV of the new car is quite catchy. The car is quite stylish.
Well, Proton cars may not be as good as BMW, Mercedes Benz and so on. But, at least, we do have our own national cars. How many countries on earth actually have national cars? Mind you, Malaysia is just a developing country. To have such an achievement is something we can be proud of.
Besides, whether or not a car is good, it's all in the mind. That's what I think.
I think Proton Gen 2 is seriously not bad. The ad on TV of the new car is quite catchy. The car is quite stylish.
Well, Proton cars may not be as good as BMW, Mercedes Benz and so on. But, at least, we do have our own national cars. How many countries on earth actually have national cars? Mind you, Malaysia is just a developing country. To have such an achievement is something we can be proud of.
Besides, whether or not a car is good, it's all in the mind. That's what I think.
__earth
10-02-2004, 12:57 AM
Besides, whether or not a car is good, it's all in the mind. That's what I think.
its in the mind of the consumers, that is. if the consumers think it's bad, it won't sell.
But yeah, we should give Proton some credit. But Proton better reinnovate itself fast because the govt protection will crumble if WTO suddenly shifts it attention to South East Asia instead of trying to mediate the current trade war between the US, Europe, Japan and China.
If that happens, I tell you, GM, Mitsubishi, Ford, Toyota - you name it, will be on Proton's ass pronto. The next thing you know, Proton, a subsidairy of General Motors, Detroit. That would be a sad story.
__earth
10-02-2004, 12:57 AM
Besides, whether or not a car is good, it's all in the mind. That's what I think.
its in the mind of the consumers, that is. if the consumers think it's bad, it won't sell.
But yeah, we should give Proton some credit. But Proton better reinnovate itself fast because the govt protection will crumble if WTO suddenly shifts it attention to South East Asia instead of trying to mediate the current trade war between the US, Europe, Japan and China.
If that happens, I tell you, GM, Mitsubishi, Ford, Toyota - you name it, will be on Proton's ass pronto. The next thing you know, Proton, a subsidairy of General Motors, Detroit. That would be a sad story.
mercsinc
10-02-2004, 03:45 AM
hmm...you guys are really into this topic.
i kind of agree that proton is a "young" car company compared to other "senior" car companies. but right now, its getting very special treatment from the government on excise duties,tax, etc (even after afta)...for i think about 20 years... and i think thats just going to pamper the company and not make it competitive enough. proton will always have that safe feeling that they are somehow protected and they dont need to work as hard. what they need is to face harsh reality of the auto industry head on. thats the only way proton will learn and finally improve itself. what doesnt kill you will only make you stronger.
i dont agree with "dinna_g's" opinion on proton modifying the design of other makes as a form of effort to make it better. they're not just modifying, they're replicating. and the last thing i heard, replicating is just like plagiarizing (i hope the spellings right). proton needs to create their own "identity" and integrate it into their designs... not take it from someone else.
i'm not trying to diss our country's own auto maker, but thay have to grow up and face the facts if they want to expand globally...
btw: what's with the prices of cars increasing after afta?
mercsinc
10-02-2004, 03:45 AM
hmm...you guys are really into this topic.
i kind of agree that proton is a "young" car company compared to other "senior" car companies. but right now, its getting very special treatment from the government on excise duties,tax, etc (even after afta)...for i think about 20 years... and i think thats just going to pamper the company and not make it competitive enough. proton will always have that safe feeling that they are somehow protected and they dont need to work as hard. what they need is to face harsh reality of the auto industry head on. thats the only way proton will learn and finally improve itself. what doesnt kill you will only make you stronger.
i dont agree with "dinna_g's" opinion on proton modifying the design of other makes as a form of effort to make it better. they're not just modifying, they're replicating. and the last thing i heard, replicating is just like plagiarizing (i hope the spellings right). proton needs to create their own "identity" and integrate it into their designs... not take it from someone else.
i'm not trying to diss our country's own auto maker, but thay have to grow up and face the facts if they want to expand globally...
btw: what's with the prices of cars increasing after afta?
mercsinc
10-02-2004, 03:49 AM
Besides, whether or not a car is good, it's all in the mind. That's what I think.
But yeah, we should give Proton some credit. But Proton better reinnovate itself fast because the govt protection will crumble if WTO suddenly shifts it attention to South East Asia instead of trying to mediate the current trade war between the US, Europe, Japan and China. If that happens, I tell you, GM, Mitsubishi, Ford, Toyota - you name it, will be on Proton's ass pronto. The next thing you know, Proton, a subsidairy of General Motors, Detroit. That would be a sad story.
i got to agree with this...its even worse if they took over and stopped making cars under the proton badge. instead, they use their own...this happened to plymouth when chrysler took over.
mercsinc
10-02-2004, 03:49 AM
Besides, whether or not a car is good, it's all in the mind. That's what I think.
But yeah, we should give Proton some credit. But Proton better reinnovate itself fast because the govt protection will crumble if WTO suddenly shifts it attention to South East Asia instead of trying to mediate the current trade war between the US, Europe, Japan and China. If that happens, I tell you, GM, Mitsubishi, Ford, Toyota - you name it, will be on Proton's ass pronto. The next thing you know, Proton, a subsidairy of General Motors, Detroit. That would be a sad story.
i got to agree with this...its even worse if they took over and stopped making cars under the proton badge. instead, they use their own...this happened to plymouth when chrysler took over.
topdog
10-02-2004, 04:29 AM
i think the issue is not whether we should support or not support Proton. malaysians buy Protons because they have no choice. right now, f you could choose between a civic and a wira for the same price, would you really buy the wira to show support for proton?
i think the issue here is the relevance of proton. why should it continue to exist when
a) it's losing money, even though it's selling bare-bone sardine cans on wheels at not-so-low prices to a not-so-rich public,
b) it's cars can't sell internationally,
c) it continues to make outdated mitsubishi clones after 2 decades?
some of you pointed out that proton could be a medium for young malaysian automotive engineers to hone their skills. i think that's a legitimate reason to justify keeping proton. anyone knows if proton has an R&D branch? i'm kinda clueless about this.
i've never heard of proton coming up with its own engine (correct me if i'm wrong). at least petronas has managed to produce its own engine. in fact, why can't proton try to use petronas' engine in its cars? are they bound by contract to mitsubishi?
topdog
10-02-2004, 04:29 AM
i think the issue is not whether we should support or not support Proton. malaysians buy Protons because they have no choice. right now, f you could choose between a civic and a wira for the same price, would you really buy the wira to show support for proton?
i think the issue here is the relevance of proton. why should it continue to exist when
a) it's losing money, even though it's selling bare-bone sardine cans on wheels at not-so-low prices to a not-so-rich public,
b) it's cars can't sell internationally,
c) it continues to make outdated mitsubishi clones after 2 decades?
some of you pointed out that proton could be a medium for young malaysian automotive engineers to hone their skills. i think that's a legitimate reason to justify keeping proton. anyone knows if proton has an R&D branch? i'm kinda clueless about this.
i've never heard of proton coming up with its own engine (correct me if i'm wrong). at least petronas has managed to produce its own engine. in fact, why can't proton try to use petronas' engine in its cars? are they bound by contract to mitsubishi?
chenchow
10-02-2004, 05:20 AM
topdog, for this generation 2 Proton, Proton is using its own home-designed engine, named Campro. It is based on the R&D of Proton itself. Proton will no longer use Mitsubishi engine for 3 of its models by end of this year. And if Campro are found to be successful, it will be the core of all Proton...
Proton has its R&D department and based on the stats, it had spent about RM5 billion or more in the past few years on R&D. I think they started to put more efforts into R&D in the last few years, in view of AFTA.
On price increase, Proton also suffers an increase in tariff, although personally I would think that all tariff be it by Proton or other makes should be greatly reduced... But even now, with very high duties and taxes, our roads are still full with cars. Many high school students are owning cars, so what if the price of vehicles are dirt cheap...
chenchow
10-02-2004, 05:20 AM
topdog, for this generation 2 Proton, Proton is using its own home-designed engine, named Campro. It is based on the R&D of Proton itself. Proton will no longer use Mitsubishi engine for 3 of its models by end of this year. And if Campro are found to be successful, it will be the core of all Proton...
Proton has its R&D department and based on the stats, it had spent about RM5 billion or more in the past few years on R&D. I think they started to put more efforts into R&D in the last few years, in view of AFTA.
On price increase, Proton also suffers an increase in tariff, although personally I would think that all tariff be it by Proton or other makes should be greatly reduced... But even now, with very high duties and taxes, our roads are still full with cars. Many high school students are owning cars, so what if the price of vehicles are dirt cheap...
__earth
10-02-2004, 05:21 AM
i think the issue here is the relevance of proton. why should it continue to exist when
a) it's losing money, even though it's selling bare-bone sardine cans on wheels at not-so-low prices to a not-so-rich public,
b) it's cars can't sell internationally,
c) it continues to make outdated mitsubishi clones after 2 decades?
one point (a), i dont know the data so i can't really say.
but point (b), proton is being sell internationally. there's some in the uk, australia, turkey and so other countries. sadly, the price of proton overseas is cheaper than the locally marketed. however, that's another issue altogether.
c) i think proton is moving towards independence slowly. it should exist because, like earlier examples, hyundai used the same tactics to succeed.
some of you pointed out that proton could be a medium for young malaysian automotive engineers to hone their skills. i think that's a legitimate reason to justify keeping proton. anyone knows if proton has an R&D branch? i'm kinda clueless about this.
yeah, there's some. in fact, it has received some help from Lotus Engineering and Sauber.
i've never heard of proton coming up with its own engine (correct me if i'm wrong). at least petronas has managed to produce its own engine. in fact, why can't proton try to use petronas' engine in its cars? are they bound by contract to mitsubishi?
Proton is Petronas. Petronas bought tons of Proton shares a few years ago. so, i guess its fair to say to some extend, whatever innovation brought by Petronas in the automotive industry is, informally for proton.
__earth
10-02-2004, 05:21 AM
i think the issue here is the relevance of proton. why should it continue to exist when
a) it's losing money, even though it's selling bare-bone sardine cans on wheels at not-so-low prices to a not-so-rich public,
b) it's cars can't sell internationally,
c) it continues to make outdated mitsubishi clones after 2 decades?
one point (a), i dont know the data so i can't really say.
but point (b), proton is being sell internationally. there's some in the uk, australia, turkey and so other countries. sadly, the price of proton overseas is cheaper than the locally marketed. however, that's another issue altogether.
c) i think proton is moving towards independence slowly. it should exist because, like earlier examples, hyundai used the same tactics to succeed.
some of you pointed out that proton could be a medium for young malaysian automotive engineers to hone their skills. i think that's a legitimate reason to justify keeping proton. anyone knows if proton has an R&D branch? i'm kinda clueless about this.
yeah, there's some. in fact, it has received some help from Lotus Engineering and Sauber.
i've never heard of proton coming up with its own engine (correct me if i'm wrong). at least petronas has managed to produce its own engine. in fact, why can't proton try to use petronas' engine in its cars? are they bound by contract to mitsubishi?
Proton is Petronas. Petronas bought tons of Proton shares a few years ago. so, i guess its fair to say to some extend, whatever innovation brought by Petronas in the automotive industry is, informally for proton.
chenchow
10-02-2004, 05:36 AM
In fact, Proton has contributed about RM13 billion of sales tax and other duties to our government. The subsidy in terms of reduction of excise duty by 50%, does not mean that Government is paying money to Proton, but rather the excise duty is reduced by 50%...
Read this article:
Judgement year for Malaysian car maker Proton
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific_business/view/64700/1/.html
On topdog's claim that Proton is losing money, it is not. I could not find 2003 data, but 2002 data shows that it is earning huge profit.
"
Perusahaan Otomobil Nasional Bhd (Proton) reported a higher pre-tax profit of RM836.373 million for the half-year ended Sept 30, 2002 against RM554.835 million in the same period last year.
The profit was achieved over a slight increase in revenue to RM5.337 billion from RM5.297 billion previously, the national car maker said in a statement here today.
Net profit stood at RM634.871 billion in the first six months of this year compared with RM382.812 million in the previous corresponding period.
Basic earnings per share rose to 8.00 sen from 7.00 sen previously.
As for the second quarter, PROTON registered a pre-tax profit of RM443.471 million from RM236.918 million in the same quarter of 2001 while net profit stood at RM345.281 million versus RM236.918 million.
The statement said that the increase in the half-year profit was due to better results recorded by the company and Proton Edar Sdn Bhd following the strong performance of the domestic automotive sector as well as overseas subsidiary in particular Lotus Group International Ltd.
At the company level, favourable business conditions for the period under review resulted in higher sales volume, which increased by 5.4 percent to 126,001 units from 119,502 units recorded in the previous period.
The increase in the quarterly profit, meanwhile, was mainly due to slightly lower research and development expenditure.
PROTON said the strong performance of the first six months is due to continuous demand for new cars in the mid to lower segment.
However, recent global events have created uncertainty among consumers and this may impact the performance of the second-half of the year, the company said.
"
chenchow
10-02-2004, 05:36 AM
In fact, Proton has contributed about RM13 billion of sales tax and other duties to our government. The subsidy in terms of reduction of excise duty by 50%, does not mean that Government is paying money to Proton, but rather the excise duty is reduced by 50%...
Read this article:
Judgement year for Malaysian car maker Proton
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific_business/view/64700/1/.html
On topdog's claim that Proton is losing money, it is not. I could not find 2003 data, but 2002 data shows that it is earning huge profit.
"
Perusahaan Otomobil Nasional Bhd (Proton) reported a higher pre-tax profit of RM836.373 million for the half-year ended Sept 30, 2002 against RM554.835 million in the same period last year.
The profit was achieved over a slight increase in revenue to RM5.337 billion from RM5.297 billion previously, the national car maker said in a statement here today.
Net profit stood at RM634.871 billion in the first six months of this year compared with RM382.812 million in the previous corresponding period.
Basic earnings per share rose to 8.00 sen from 7.00 sen previously.
As for the second quarter, PROTON registered a pre-tax profit of RM443.471 million from RM236.918 million in the same quarter of 2001 while net profit stood at RM345.281 million versus RM236.918 million.
The statement said that the increase in the half-year profit was due to better results recorded by the company and Proton Edar Sdn Bhd following the strong performance of the domestic automotive sector as well as overseas subsidiary in particular Lotus Group International Ltd.
At the company level, favourable business conditions for the period under review resulted in higher sales volume, which increased by 5.4 percent to 126,001 units from 119,502 units recorded in the previous period.
The increase in the quarterly profit, meanwhile, was mainly due to slightly lower research and development expenditure.
PROTON said the strong performance of the first six months is due to continuous demand for new cars in the mid to lower segment.
However, recent global events have created uncertainty among consumers and this may impact the performance of the second-half of the year, the company said.
"
topdog
10-02-2004, 06:07 AM
whoops i obviously didn't read the article... *hangs head in shame*
so gen 2 uses proton's own engine. i think that's a huge development.
about proton losing money, i didn't phrase it the right way. proton is still alive, but thanks in very large part to import duties imposed on foreign cars (up to 300% at one point). take away that protection and proton dies, no?
i'm aware that proton does have a presence overseas, but it can't compete with other carmakers, yet.
anyway, i just wanted to think about proton's relevance to malaysia, especially with the pressure from afta and all that. i'm learning a lot from this discussion:)
topdog
10-02-2004, 06:07 AM
whoops i obviously didn't read the article... *hangs head in shame*
so gen 2 uses proton's own engine. i think that's a huge development.
about proton losing money, i didn't phrase it the right way. proton is still alive, but thanks in very large part to import duties imposed on foreign cars (up to 300% at one point). take away that protection and proton dies, no?
i'm aware that proton does have a presence overseas, but it can't compete with other carmakers, yet.
anyway, i just wanted to think about proton's relevance to malaysia, especially with the pressure from afta and all that. i'm learning a lot from this discussion:)
el_empty
11-02-2004, 04:20 AM
proton definitely *should* exist. but not with the same management. if the company and the govt are truly committed to reinventing proton, they have to prove it. we've talked about bmw and creative and hyundai apple and whatnot, and the reason they succeed is because of competent CEOs. that's the way the business world works i guess: deliver results or get out. and as for proton's case, wasn't the CEO tengku mahaleel still asking for another 20 years of protection from afta? what a big baby...
el_empty
11-02-2004, 04:20 AM
proton definitely *should* exist. but not with the same management. if the company and the govt are truly committed to reinventing proton, they have to prove it. we've talked about bmw and creative and hyundai apple and whatnot, and the reason they succeed is because of competent CEOs. that's the way the business world works i guess: deliver results or get out. and as for proton's case, wasn't the CEO tengku mahaleel still asking for another 20 years of protection from afta? what a big baby...
__earth
11-02-2004, 04:32 AM
dood, is that alan greenspan?
r you a fan of his? LOL!
__earth
11-02-2004, 04:32 AM
dood, is that alan greenspan?
r you a fan of his? LOL!
i'm aware that proton does have a presence overseas, but it can't compete with other carmakers, yet.
I remember watching one of Mr Bean series ... Mr Bean was playing golf and his ball (the golf ball, of course !!) went all over the places ... at one time the ball went into the exhaust tube of a Proton Iswara (yes! it's our Iswara in Mr Bean series!) and the car immediately broke down ... :lol: :lol: .. I'm not sure whether it's intentional or purely coincidence but I guess there was a message .. I wonder what it was ... :wink:
i'm aware that proton does have a presence overseas, but it can't compete with other carmakers, yet.
I remember watching one of Mr Bean series ... Mr Bean was playing golf and his ball (the golf ball, of course !!) went all over the places ... at one time the ball went into the exhaust tube of a Proton Iswara (yes! it's our Iswara in Mr Bean series!) and the car immediately broke down ... :lol: :lol: .. I'm not sure whether it's intentional or purely coincidence but I guess there was a message .. I wonder what it was ... :wink:
budakkerek
11-02-2004, 03:48 PM
Luke!!!
i saw that one too..hehe..mr bean...such a genius eh? 8)
anyway, yaa..that's what came to my mind when i saw the car...the similarities in the designs and all... :wink:
Hmm...seriously, the only Msian i'd be interested in buying is Proton Satria GTI..heheh..the sleekest Msian car ever made.
Lain dr tu? scooter Suzuki VS125 - me most favourite thingy in the world!!!
ps; do you guys know that there's a Mr Bean cartoon series? i nvr miss it LOL
budakkerek
11-02-2004, 03:48 PM
Luke!!!
i saw that one too..hehe..mr bean...such a genius eh? 8)
anyway, yaa..that's what came to my mind when i saw the car...the similarities in the designs and all... :wink:
Hmm...seriously, the only Msian i'd be interested in buying is Proton Satria GTI..heheh..the sleekest Msian car ever made.
Lain dr tu? scooter Suzuki VS125 - me most favourite thingy in the world!!!
ps; do you guys know that there's a Mr Bean cartoon series? i nvr miss it LOL
dinna_g
11-02-2004, 11:19 PM
c) it continues to make outdated mitsubishi clones after 2 decades?
the idea of selling old models (e.g. iswara) is because there are still demand for the car in malaysia. it makes sense as the price of iswara is just about $2000 more expensive than kancil but it is much bigger in size and engine.
previously, you also mentioned about "Juara". Juara is actually a modification of Mitsubishi Townbox (correct me if I'm wrong) and the idea of making it is to compete with Perodua. Proton targets to only sell few amount of Juara maybe just about 20 cars per week (I don't really know the number). Hence, it is still in production. Maybe some might think it is ugly (I do think so too.. hehe) but beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. Some people might like the looks and hence it is still selling.
at least petronas has managed to produce its own engine. in fact, why can't proton try to use petronas' engine in its cars? are they bound by contract to mitsubishi?
isn't petronas produced engines for F1? i'm not sure about this, but can anyone give more info? but anyways, if they do, you can't really use an F1 engine in commercial cars?
dinna_g
11-02-2004, 11:19 PM
c) it continues to make outdated mitsubishi clones after 2 decades?
the idea of selling old models (e.g. iswara) is because there are still demand for the car in malaysia. it makes sense as the price of iswara is just about $2000 more expensive than kancil but it is much bigger in size and engine.
previously, you also mentioned about "Juara". Juara is actually a modification of Mitsubishi Townbox (correct me if I'm wrong) and the idea of making it is to compete with Perodua. Proton targets to only sell few amount of Juara maybe just about 20 cars per week (I don't really know the number). Hence, it is still in production. Maybe some might think it is ugly (I do think so too.. hehe) but beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. Some people might like the looks and hence it is still selling.
at least petronas has managed to produce its own engine. in fact, why can't proton try to use petronas' engine in its cars? are they bound by contract to mitsubishi?
isn't petronas produced engines for F1? i'm not sure about this, but can anyone give more info? but anyways, if they do, you can't really use an F1 engine in commercial cars?
chenchow
12-02-2004, 03:57 AM
dinna_g, perhaps you may have missed my earlier posts...
The Proton Gen 2 is using the engine made completely by Proton. The first Proton own-made engine...
In fact, this Proton Gen 2 is not made in Shah Alam, but rather at new high tech RM1.+ billion plant in Proton City, Tanjung Malim which has the capacity to make 1 million Proton per year.
New model, new engine and new plant... Hopefully all will turn out to be good!
chenchow
12-02-2004, 03:57 AM
dinna_g, perhaps you may have missed my earlier posts...
The Proton Gen 2 is using the engine made completely by Proton. The first Proton own-made engine...
In fact, this Proton Gen 2 is not made in Shah Alam, but rather at new high tech RM1.+ billion plant in Proton City, Tanjung Malim which has the capacity to make 1 million Proton per year.
New model, new engine and new plant... Hopefully all will turn out to be good!
dinna_g
12-02-2004, 05:15 AM
dinna_g, perhaps you may have missed my earlier posts...
The Proton Gen 2 is using the engine made completely by Proton. The first Proton own-made engine...
In fact, this Proton Gen 2 is not made in Shah Alam, but rather at new high tech RM1.+ billion plant in Proton City, Tanjung Malim which has the capacity to make 1 million Proton per year.
New model, new engine and new plant... Hopefully all will turn out to be good!
chenchow, i read your post. i was just raising the issue about the engine made by petronas. technically, proton is a part of petronas but they aren't the same company. i'm just trying to point out that petronas is producing different type of engine but i might be wrong.
cheers!
dinna_g
12-02-2004, 05:15 AM
dinna_g, perhaps you may have missed my earlier posts...
The Proton Gen 2 is using the engine made completely by Proton. The first Proton own-made engine...
In fact, this Proton Gen 2 is not made in Shah Alam, but rather at new high tech RM1.+ billion plant in Proton City, Tanjung Malim which has the capacity to make 1 million Proton per year.
New model, new engine and new plant... Hopefully all will turn out to be good!
chenchow, i read your post. i was just raising the issue about the engine made by petronas. technically, proton is a part of petronas but they aren't the same company. i'm just trying to point out that petronas is producing different type of engine but i might be wrong.
cheers!
el_empty
12-02-2004, 06:54 AM
the idea of selling old models (e.g. iswara) is because there are still demand for the car in malaysia. it makes sense as the price of iswara is just about $2000 more expensive than kancil but it is much bigger in size and engine.
if i'm not mistaken iswara is the worst selling car proton has ever made (i wonder if juara will dethrone iswara soon...). and because of that i think proton has ceased to manufacture this model. the 'cool' new features are just retrofitted to make them sell-able.
In fact, this Proton Gen 2 is not made in Shah Alam, but rather at new high tech RM1.+ billion plant in Proton City, Tanjung Malim which has the capacity to make 1 million Proton per year.
this is another issue. spending so much capital on a manufacturing city is completely outlandish. the funds really should have been diverted to r&d, training, etc. factors of production that will dramatically increase proton's net worth. a whole new city will not boost production soon, and should be perceived as a long-run low-return rates investment.
i think the idea of a manufacturing core is a great one though, for many reasons. but if proton wants to compete worldwide (really compete... ), especially with afta coming round, busting a hole in the pocket is counterproductive. if anything, proton now appears to be desperately trying to boost its image (naming a car 'gen 2' i.e. 'generation 2') but having a crumbling core (public's sore opinion of its products). and proton city will continue to take the centerstage as a toyota-city-wannabe or a real estate gimmick.
el_empty
12-02-2004, 06:54 AM
the idea of selling old models (e.g. iswara) is because there are still demand for the car in malaysia. it makes sense as the price of iswara is just about $2000 more expensive than kancil but it is much bigger in size and engine.
if i'm not mistaken iswara is the worst selling car proton has ever made (i wonder if juara will dethrone iswara soon...). and because of that i think proton has ceased to manufacture this model. the 'cool' new features are just retrofitted to make them sell-able.
In fact, this Proton Gen 2 is not made in Shah Alam, but rather at new high tech RM1.+ billion plant in Proton City, Tanjung Malim which has the capacity to make 1 million Proton per year.
this is another issue. spending so much capital on a manufacturing city is completely outlandish. the funds really should have been diverted to r&d, training, etc. factors of production that will dramatically increase proton's net worth. a whole new city will not boost production soon, and should be perceived as a long-run low-return rates investment.
i think the idea of a manufacturing core is a great one though, for many reasons. but if proton wants to compete worldwide (really compete... ), especially with afta coming round, busting a hole in the pocket is counterproductive. if anything, proton now appears to be desperately trying to boost its image (naming a car 'gen 2' i.e. 'generation 2') but having a crumbling core (public's sore opinion of its products). and proton city will continue to take the centerstage as a toyota-city-wannabe or a real estate gimmick.
topdog
12-02-2004, 07:52 AM
regarding tengku mahaleel's request for 20 more years of babysitting for proton, does anyone know if it was approved?
topdog
12-02-2004, 07:52 AM
regarding tengku mahaleel's request for 20 more years of babysitting for proton, does anyone know if it was approved?
chenchow
12-02-2004, 08:20 AM
el_empty, the main reason for Proton to build a new modern manufacturing plant is to get ready for AFTA. As the Shah Alam plant is running at capacity level, it would need a much bigger plant to produce sufficient cars. By having this newer plant and higher technology, production cost of the car will be reduced by 20% to 30%. That's how the Gen 2 1.6 is priced at RM50K, when 1.3 Iswara is already priced near RM35K and Waja 1.6 is RM60+K.
Also with this new plant, it would have the factors of production by producing more cars. Proton has invested about RM5 billion in the past five years in R&D. That's how the first home-made engine came from, and the entire design of 3 new models etc.
.
chenchow
12-02-2004, 08:20 AM
el_empty, the main reason for Proton to build a new modern manufacturing plant is to get ready for AFTA. As the Shah Alam plant is running at capacity level, it would need a much bigger plant to produce sufficient cars. By having this newer plant and higher technology, production cost of the car will be reduced by 20% to 30%. That's how the Gen 2 1.6 is priced at RM50K, when 1.3 Iswara is already priced near RM35K and Waja 1.6 is RM60+K.
Also with this new plant, it would have the factors of production by producing more cars. Proton has invested about RM5 billion in the past five years in R&D. That's how the first home-made engine came from, and the entire design of 3 new models etc.
.
chenchow, have you ever approached proton for scholarship? hehe... maybe you should be their public relations officer :)
chenchow, have you ever approached proton for scholarship? hehe... maybe you should be their public relations officer :)
chenchow
12-02-2004, 08:55 AM
I think most Malaysians, especially those who read newspaper back in Malaysia will know all those that I wrote... Proton published their R&D spending, their various details on their new plant, new engine etc...
One thing I think Proton seriously need to do is to have all the financial data available on Proton.com . Those data are lacking there.
chenchow
12-02-2004, 08:55 AM
I think most Malaysians, especially those who read newspaper back in Malaysia will know all those that I wrote... Proton published their R&D spending, their various details on their new plant, new engine etc...
One thing I think Proton seriously need to do is to have all the financial data available on Proton.com . Those data are lacking there.
dinna_g
12-02-2004, 11:36 AM
if i'm not mistaken iswara is the worst selling car proton has ever made (i wonder if juara will dethrone iswara soon...). and because of that i think proton has ceased to manufacture this model. the 'cool' new features are just retrofitted to make them sell-able.
this is not true my dear.. iswara is doing well.. if you don't believe me, stand on the side of a street one day, and count the number of iswara that passes you. in fact, proton was surprised by the demand that is still around for the old model. they add the "cool" new features to modernize the car. i don't see anything wrong with that.
as far as the sales of juara is concern, i'm sure it is selling far below any other proton cars. as i said earlier, they target to sell very few juara. they are not planning to make juara "laku macam pisang goreng panas" like perodua kancil.
chenchow, i'm amazed by your knowledge and statistics on proton. keep on reading.. :D
cheers!
dinna_g
12-02-2004, 11:36 AM
if i'm not mistaken iswara is the worst selling car proton has ever made (i wonder if juara will dethrone iswara soon...). and because of that i think proton has ceased to manufacture this model. the 'cool' new features are just retrofitted to make them sell-able.
this is not true my dear.. iswara is doing well.. if you don't believe me, stand on the side of a street one day, and count the number of iswara that passes you. in fact, proton was surprised by the demand that is still around for the old model. they add the "cool" new features to modernize the car. i don't see anything wrong with that.
as far as the sales of juara is concern, i'm sure it is selling far below any other proton cars. as i said earlier, they target to sell very few juara. they are not planning to make juara "laku macam pisang goreng panas" like perodua kancil.
chenchow, i'm amazed by your knowledge and statistics on proton. keep on reading.. :D
cheers!
__earth
12-02-2004, 11:45 AM
this is not true my dear.. iswara is doing well.. if you don't believe me, stand on the side of a street one day, and count the number of iswara that passes you. in fact, proton was surprised by the demand that is still around for the old model. they add the "cool" new features to modernize the car. i don't see anything wrong with that.
you guys should actually go and find the data. to say it is tak laku or say iswara is doing well because its could be found in the street doesn't mean its laku.
dinna, if you really do what you've said, you should count the number of the oldsmobiles in the US. it's could be easily found in the midwest.
but before hand, let me tell you, despite the omnipresent of oldsmobiles, its maker has stopped producing output because the manufacturer (a subsidairy of GM, not GM itself) can't cover its fixed cost. in fact, it is having its factories closing down.
im not saying iswara is laku or tak laku - i myself dont know but you guys need to present a concrete proof before asserting a claim.
__earth
12-02-2004, 11:45 AM
this is not true my dear.. iswara is doing well.. if you don't believe me, stand on the side of a street one day, and count the number of iswara that passes you. in fact, proton was surprised by the demand that is still around for the old model. they add the "cool" new features to modernize the car. i don't see anything wrong with that.
you guys should actually go and find the data. to say it is tak laku or say iswara is doing well because its could be found in the street doesn't mean its laku.
dinna, if you really do what you've said, you should count the number of the oldsmobiles in the US. it's could be easily found in the midwest.
but before hand, let me tell you, despite the omnipresent of oldsmobiles, its maker has stopped producing output because the manufacturer (a subsidairy of GM, not GM itself) can't cover its fixed cost. in fact, it is having its factories closing down.
im not saying iswara is laku or tak laku - i myself dont know but you guys need to present a concrete proof before asserting a claim.
dinna_g
12-02-2004, 11:56 AM
dinna, if you really do what you've said, you should count the number of the oldsmobiles in the US. it's could be easily found in the midwest.
i was being sarcastic lah :P... anyways, i don't really know whether it's doing well. i'm just stating the fact that it's still there because there is still demand and proton is making profit out of that product.
it'll be a fun activity to count the oldsmobiles when it is 10F outside except that i don't know how it looks like :P. anyways, interesting story about oldsmobile you have there (this is not sarcasm).
cheers!
dinna_g
12-02-2004, 11:56 AM
dinna, if you really do what you've said, you should count the number of the oldsmobiles in the US. it's could be easily found in the midwest.
i was being sarcastic lah :P... anyways, i don't really know whether it's doing well. i'm just stating the fact that it's still there because there is still demand and proton is making profit out of that product.
it'll be a fun activity to count the oldsmobiles when it is 10F outside except that i don't know how it looks like :P. anyways, interesting story about oldsmobile you have there (this is not sarcasm).
cheers!
DecentMerson
12-02-2004, 10:53 PM
previously, you also mentioned about "Juara". Juara is actually a modification of Mitsubishi Townbox (correct me if I'm wrong) and the idea of making it is to compete with Perodua. Proton targets to only sell few amount of Juara maybe just about 20 cars per week (I don't really know the number). Hence, it is still in production. Maybe some might think it is ugly (I do think so too.. hehe) but beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. Some people might like the looks and hence it is still selling.
about the ugliest car of the century (basically a matchbox with for tyres--Juara), after the poor response from the public, the production was immediately halted after 6 months of its first appearance in the market,.....only 3000 units were sold...the end of a sad story......hahaha....
it is really too boxy.....
and about the GEN.2....nothing to boast abt bcoz.....
My parent visited a proton dealer to look at the new car.....and found that the bonnet can't close...
and my neighbor went to another dealer in another area and found the same problem!!!! interesting...
it is a new car... but all these small problems just persist.
Gen.2?not really.....
just like all the previous version of protons. If u dunno, proton Waja also has lots of such minor problems(relay problem, electronics problem, passenger seat drawer problem, power windows problem...) that will cause hypertension
i think there's another problem abt proton.....
they just seem to know how to produce car, they are not selling it...
now, more than 50 thousands(50,000) cars(iswara, wira, satria, waja....) are still in the reserved of EON.....
and car is something that ppl own and it is not disposable items.... and Malaysia 2nd hand car industry is quite big too... there's no point producing too many cars.....
the major road is already too congested with cars....and government is trying to encourage the people to use public transports... how's proton going to sell all the cars????
an interesting insight from a supplier who supplies relay to proton says that Waja relay was suppose to be able to run at a higher V(suggested by German engineers), but bcoz the proton engineers counted that it can run at a slightly lower V on paper, they used all the substandards part... but bcoz to start the engine, you need to charge up the engine and normally, these charges are quite high in V, in will burn the relay very easily...
this is not true my dear.. iswara is doing well.. if you don't believe me, stand on the side of a street one day, and count the number of iswara that passes you. in fact, proton was surprised by the demand that is still around for the old model. they add the "cool" new features to modernize the car. i don't see anything wrong with that.
iswara is doing the best among all the proton cars... bcoz it is really selling at a reasonable price...
isn't petronas produced engines for F1? i'm not sure about this, but can anyone give more info? but anyways, if they do, you can't really use an F1 engine in commercial cars?
FYI, petronas is not producing F1 engines..... they contracted with Ferrari so that they can purchase the previous years engine from Ferrari...
the only factor that keeps proton alive is the price factor.....
actually, i wonder why japanese cars can be so cheap (without the tax)....and remain competitive after tax... :?:
DecentMerson
12-02-2004, 10:53 PM
previously, you also mentioned about "Juara". Juara is actually a modification of Mitsubishi Townbox (correct me if I'm wrong) and the idea of making it is to compete with Perodua. Proton targets to only sell few amount of Juara maybe just about 20 cars per week (I don't really know the number). Hence, it is still in production. Maybe some might think it is ugly (I do think so too.. hehe) but beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. Some people might like the looks and hence it is still selling.
about the ugliest car of the century (basically a matchbox with for tyres--Juara), after the poor response from the public, the production was immediately halted after 6 months of its first appearance in the market,.....only 3000 units were sold...the end of a sad story......hahaha....
it is really too boxy.....
and about the GEN.2....nothing to boast abt bcoz.....
My parent visited a proton dealer to look at the new car.....and found that the bonnet can't close...
and my neighbor went to another dealer in another area and found the same problem!!!! interesting...
it is a new car... but all these small problems just persist.
Gen.2?not really.....
just like all the previous version of protons. If u dunno, proton Waja also has lots of such minor problems(relay problem, electronics problem, passenger seat drawer problem, power windows problem...) that will cause hypertension
i think there's another problem abt proton.....
they just seem to know how to produce car, they are not selling it...
now, more than 50 thousands(50,000) cars(iswara, wira, satria, waja....) are still in the reserved of EON.....
and car is something that ppl own and it is not disposable items.... and Malaysia 2nd hand car industry is quite big too... there's no point producing too many cars.....
the major road is already too congested with cars....and government is trying to encourage the people to use public transports... how's proton going to sell all the cars????
an interesting insight from a supplier who supplies relay to proton says that Waja relay was suppose to be able to run at a higher V(suggested by German engineers), but bcoz the proton engineers counted that it can run at a slightly lower V on paper, they used all the substandards part... but bcoz to start the engine, you need to charge up the engine and normally, these charges are quite high in V, in will burn the relay very easily...
this is not true my dear.. iswara is doing well.. if you don't believe me, stand on the side of a street one day, and count the number of iswara that passes you. in fact, proton was surprised by the demand that is still around for the old model. they add the "cool" new features to modernize the car. i don't see anything wrong with that.
iswara is doing the best among all the proton cars... bcoz it is really selling at a reasonable price...
isn't petronas produced engines for F1? i'm not sure about this, but can anyone give more info? but anyways, if they do, you can't really use an F1 engine in commercial cars?
FYI, petronas is not producing F1 engines..... they contracted with Ferrari so that they can purchase the previous years engine from Ferrari...
the only factor that keeps proton alive is the price factor.....
actually, i wonder why japanese cars can be so cheap (without the tax)....and remain competitive after tax... :?:
dinna_g
13-02-2004, 01:10 AM
My parent visited a proton dealer to look at the new car.....and found that the bonnet can't close...
and my neighbor went to another dealer in another area and found the same problem!!!! interesting...
It's a shame that they did not look into minor things like that.
just like all the previous version of protons. If u dunno, proton Waja also has lots of such minor problems(relay problem, electronics problem, passenger seat drawer problem, power windows problem...) that will cause hypertension
I'm aware of that. Actually after the sales of Waja, proton found several flaws that weren't detected during the testing period. I think the first few thousands car sold received free service to take care of several problems.
actually, i wonder why japanese cars can be so cheap (without the tax)....and remain competitive after tax... :?:
yeah, that is a very interesting issue. If I'm not mistaken, Daihatsu Mira which is Perodua Kancil in Malaysia sells for less than half of the price in Malaysia in Japan. And most Japanese cars are very reliable too..
dinna_g
13-02-2004, 01:10 AM
My parent visited a proton dealer to look at the new car.....and found that the bonnet can't close...
and my neighbor went to another dealer in another area and found the same problem!!!! interesting...
It's a shame that they did not look into minor things like that.
just like all the previous version of protons. If u dunno, proton Waja also has lots of such minor problems(relay problem, electronics problem, passenger seat drawer problem, power windows problem...) that will cause hypertension
I'm aware of that. Actually after the sales of Waja, proton found several flaws that weren't detected during the testing period. I think the first few thousands car sold received free service to take care of several problems.
actually, i wonder why japanese cars can be so cheap (without the tax)....and remain competitive after tax... :?:
yeah, that is a very interesting issue. If I'm not mistaken, Daihatsu Mira which is Perodua Kancil in Malaysia sells for less than half of the price in Malaysia in Japan. And most Japanese cars are very reliable too..
chenchow
13-02-2004, 05:12 AM
About Proton protection read this news.
http://www.recom.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1138&mode=&order=0&thold=0
chenchow
13-02-2004, 05:12 AM
About Proton protection read this news.
http://www.recom.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1138&mode=&order=0&thold=0
topdog
13-02-2004, 05:55 AM
About Proton protection read this news.
http://www.recom.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1138&mode=&order=0&thold=0
cool, they must have known i was asking this question. heh.
maybe 19 years instead of 20? :twisted:
topdog
13-02-2004, 05:55 AM
About Proton protection read this news.
http://www.recom.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1138&mode=&order=0&thold=0
cool, they must have known i was asking this question. heh.
maybe 19 years instead of 20? :twisted:
PeiWen
13-02-2004, 09:17 AM
i think the Gen2 is really cool design. Hopefully I would be able to own one...hehe...I think it can survive in the market for quite some times. :P
PeiWen
13-02-2004, 09:17 AM
i think the Gen2 is really cool design. Hopefully I would be able to own one...hehe...I think it can survive in the market for quite some times. :P
chenchow
13-02-2004, 09:44 AM
There have been quite a lot about defects in this generation 2... Hopefully it is not true... Because there have been people who complaint about the car door at Proton Edar which could not be opened , some doors have its rubber already not tightened...etc.
Really hope that Proton has done sufficient testing before bringing the car out. They can't afford to retail a substandard car...
chenchow
13-02-2004, 09:44 AM
There have been quite a lot about defects in this generation 2... Hopefully it is not true... Because there have been people who complaint about the car door at Proton Edar which could not be opened , some doors have its rubber already not tightened...etc.
Really hope that Proton has done sufficient testing before bringing the car out. They can't afford to retail a substandard car...
masterof_none
13-02-2004, 11:03 AM
hope it's not gonna be as bad as the Ford Pinto case.
masterof_none
13-02-2004, 11:03 AM
hope it's not gonna be as bad as the Ford Pinto case.
dinna_g
13-02-2004, 11:46 AM
hope it's not gonna be as bad as the Ford Pinto case.
Ford pinto is no longer a minor problem. It is an engineering flaw that could've been solved.
dinna_g
13-02-2004, 11:46 AM
hope it's not gonna be as bad as the Ford Pinto case.
Ford pinto is no longer a minor problem. It is an engineering flaw that could've been solved.
el_empty
13-02-2004, 08:25 PM
this is not true my dear.. iswara is doing well.. if you don't believe me, stand on the side of a street one day, and count the number of iswara that passes you. in fact, proton was surprised by the demand that is still around for the old model. they add the "cool" new features to modernize the car. i don't see anything wrong with that.
you guys should actually go and find the data. to say it is tak laku or say iswara is doing well because its could be found in the street doesn't mean its laku.
yeah you're right. i apologize for the apparent libel. but the only reason i mentioned it was because i am certain i have read it somewhere but not being able to recall the source.
if anything, i found an article from theedge, which reports of plummeting sales of the iswara model. but knowing malaysia, good statistics are hard to find.
http://www.theedgedaily.com/article.cfm?id=24672
iswara is doing the best among all the proton cars... bcoz it is really selling at a reasonable price...
woah i really have to disagree on this statement. a reasonable price cannot be an indicator of good sales performance. if anything, prices could be driven down to rid proton of its inventory.
el_empty, the main reason for Proton to build a new modern manufacturing plant is to get ready for AFTA. As the Shah Alam plant is running at capacity level, it would need a much bigger plant to produce sufficient cars. By having this newer plant and higher technology, production cost of the car will be reduced by 20% to 30%. That's how the Gen 2 1.6 is priced at RM50K, when 1.3 Iswara is already priced near RM35K and Waja 1.6 is RM60+K.
i agree. i didn't say that a new plant is bad for afta. i said that a new plant would be bad for proton now because of huge costs. why not cut costs in other areas? expected profits is simply not good enough a reason to undertake a huge infrastructure program.
Also with this new plant, it would have the factors of production by producing more cars. Proton has invested about RM5 billion in the past five years in R&D. That's how the first home-made engine came from, and the entire design of 3 new models etc.
did you mean making cheaper cars as your produce more? it is true that there possibly is a diminishing marginal cost associated with manufacturing, but the aggregate cost leaps up with additional spending that looks good on accounts (cash becomes asset) but in reality blows a hole in the pocket.
btw, the campro is built in association with Lotus, an acquired company. i don't think technological transfer can quite forthcomingly categorize campro as a home-made product.
el_empty
13-02-2004, 08:25 PM
this is not true my dear.. iswara is doing well.. if you don't believe me, stand on the side of a street one day, and count the number of iswara that passes you. in fact, proton was surprised by the demand that is still around for the old model. they add the "cool" new features to modernize the car. i don't see anything wrong with that.
you guys should actually go and find the data. to say it is tak laku or say iswara is doing well because its could be found in the street doesn't mean its laku.
yeah you're right. i apologize for the apparent libel. but the only reason i mentioned it was because i am certain i have read it somewhere but not being able to recall the source.
if anything, i found an article from theedge, which reports of plummeting sales of the iswara model. but knowing malaysia, good statistics are hard to find.
http://www.theedgedaily.com/article.cfm?id=24672
iswara is doing the best among all the proton cars... bcoz it is really selling at a reasonable price...
woah i really have to disagree on this statement. a reasonable price cannot be an indicator of good sales performance. if anything, prices could be driven down to rid proton of its inventory.
el_empty, the main reason for Proton to build a new modern manufacturing plant is to get ready for AFTA. As the Shah Alam plant is running at capacity level, it would need a much bigger plant to produce sufficient cars. By having this newer plant and higher technology, production cost of the car will be reduced by 20% to 30%. That's how the Gen 2 1.6 is priced at RM50K, when 1.3 Iswara is already priced near RM35K and Waja 1.6 is RM60+K.
i agree. i didn't say that a new plant is bad for afta. i said that a new plant would be bad for proton now because of huge costs. why not cut costs in other areas? expected profits is simply not good enough a reason to undertake a huge infrastructure program.
Also with this new plant, it would have the factors of production by producing more cars. Proton has invested about RM5 billion in the past five years in R&D. That's how the first home-made engine came from, and the entire design of 3 new models etc.
did you mean making cheaper cars as your produce more? it is true that there possibly is a diminishing marginal cost associated with manufacturing, but the aggregate cost leaps up with additional spending that looks good on accounts (cash becomes asset) but in reality blows a hole in the pocket.
btw, the campro is built in association with Lotus, an acquired company. i don't think technological transfer can quite forthcomingly categorize campro as a home-made product.
littlebigone
14-02-2004, 04:53 AM
Speaking of Lotus, a friend of mine told me that Malaysia bought Lotus simply to learn of it's new technology and also to benefit from it's R&D. However, the head of R&D resigned immediately after the buy.
Don't know if this is true. Can anyone clarify? Also, if it is true, does this mean that the investment was a waste?
Don't know much about cars here so if I said something wrong, don't hit me over the head. Just interested to know how one of Malaysia's proud industry is doing.
littlebigone
14-02-2004, 04:53 AM
Speaking of Lotus, a friend of mine told me that Malaysia bought Lotus simply to learn of it's new technology and also to benefit from it's R&D. However, the head of R&D resigned immediately after the buy.
Don't know if this is true. Can anyone clarify? Also, if it is true, does this mean that the investment was a waste?
Don't know much about cars here so if I said something wrong, don't hit me over the head. Just interested to know how one of Malaysia's proud industry is doing.
dinna_g
14-02-2004, 07:36 AM
btw, the campro is built in association with Lotus, an acquired company. i don't think technological transfer can quite forthcomingly categorize campro as a home-made product.
at least they benefit something from buying lotus. Honestly, after proton acquiring lotus, i was quite disappointed as I don't see any improvement in proton. i was expecting them to come up with a sport car or something :D. Now I realized that proton actually has a reason to do that. If proton is developing consistently, I'm sure in about 10 years they can come up with their own product.
dinna_g
14-02-2004, 07:36 AM
btw, the campro is built in association with Lotus, an acquired company. i don't think technological transfer can quite forthcomingly categorize campro as a home-made product.
at least they benefit something from buying lotus. Honestly, after proton acquiring lotus, i was quite disappointed as I don't see any improvement in proton. i was expecting them to come up with a sport car or something :D. Now I realized that proton actually has a reason to do that. If proton is developing consistently, I'm sure in about 10 years they can come up with their own product.
el_empty
14-02-2004, 12:34 PM
oh yes i believe, in my opinion lotus was a good buy. a very good buy actually. i just wished proton capitalized more on the acquisition and not merely ripping its technology. i wouldn't be surprised if the head of r&d quit, because of the tremendous redtape that boggle proton down. look at lotus now... they're hardly producing anything.
wasn't the gti quite a commendable success? i've never driven it but i hear it's really good. likewise for waja, the engines were quite good. better than the recycled-milo-tincan people predicted before their launches.
btw the site is finally up!
http://www.proton.com
el_empty
14-02-2004, 12:34 PM
oh yes i believe, in my opinion lotus was a good buy. a very good buy actually. i just wished proton capitalized more on the acquisition and not merely ripping its technology. i wouldn't be surprised if the head of r&d quit, because of the tremendous redtape that boggle proton down. look at lotus now... they're hardly producing anything.
wasn't the gti quite a commendable success? i've never driven it but i hear it's really good. likewise for waja, the engines were quite good. better than the recycled-milo-tincan people predicted before their launches.
btw the site is finally up!
http://www.proton.com
jiinjoo
14-02-2004, 04:39 PM
actually, i wonder why japanese cars can be so cheap (without the tax)....and remain competitive after tax...
In fact, what I learnt from a Toyota guy was that they themselves don't really know why they can make such good cars at such low cost anymore. They tried so hard man.
My understanding is that their factory in Japan is open to public. You can go in and see all your want, copy what they are doing in your own factory - and the fact is you will not get it - that's the confidence they have when they publicize this open-factory thingy.
I'm interested to learn more about how Proton is doing etc. After reading most of the post, I thought many of us are just speculating, not that speculating is a bad sport, but I really want to know some figures. Can't find their annual report anywhere online.
jiinjoo
14-02-2004, 04:39 PM
actually, i wonder why japanese cars can be so cheap (without the tax)....and remain competitive after tax...
In fact, what I learnt from a Toyota guy was that they themselves don't really know why they can make such good cars at such low cost anymore. They tried so hard man.
My understanding is that their factory in Japan is open to public. You can go in and see all your want, copy what they are doing in your own factory - and the fact is you will not get it - that's the confidence they have when they publicize this open-factory thingy.
I'm interested to learn more about how Proton is doing etc. After reading most of the post, I thought many of us are just speculating, not that speculating is a bad sport, but I really want to know some figures. Can't find their annual report anywhere online.
topdog
15-02-2004, 02:00 AM
My understanding is that their factory in Japan is open to public. You can go in and see all your want, copy what they are doing in your own factory - and the fact is you will not get it - that's the confidence they have when they publicize this open-factory thingy.
That's really interesting.
I'm interested to learn more about how Proton is doing etc...Can't find their annual report anywhere online.
hey guys what's proton's official website? is it proton.com.my? if it is, not only is the annual report not there...it doesn't even have a company profile! all that's there is a link to proton edar, gen2 website, and a flash animation of a gen2 that says "wow wow wow" when you hover your cursor over it. yikes!
topdog
15-02-2004, 02:00 AM
My understanding is that their factory in Japan is open to public. You can go in and see all your want, copy what they are doing in your own factory - and the fact is you will not get it - that's the confidence they have when they publicize this open-factory thingy.
That's really interesting.
I'm interested to learn more about how Proton is doing etc...Can't find their annual report anywhere online.
hey guys what's proton's official website? is it proton.com.my? if it is, not only is the annual report not there...it doesn't even have a company profile! all that's there is a link to proton edar, gen2 website, and a flash animation of a gen2 that says "wow wow wow" when you hover your cursor over it. yikes!
chenchow
15-02-2004, 02:54 AM
I have the same sentiment as topdog... The website really need to be revamped and not just saying that it will be up in March...March is just one month... We at ReCom, a small organization, can't survive with a few days of down, whereas Proton, which is a company with billion dollars of sales per year, can afford to have its website to be ready in a few weeks time???
chenchow
15-02-2004, 02:54 AM
I have the same sentiment as topdog... The website really need to be revamped and not just saying that it will be up in March...March is just one month... We at ReCom, a small organization, can't survive with a few days of down, whereas Proton, which is a company with billion dollars of sales per year, can afford to have its website to be ready in a few weeks time???
diong
15-02-2004, 03:16 PM
I am glad to see that Proton is making effort to revolutionize itself by rolling out new model. Yet, I think that there are few issues we need to take into consideration in view of the implementation of AFTA and the onslaught of globlization.
First, we need to visualize what we want to achieve 10 years from now. We need to identify the role we want to play in the car manufacturing industry 10-20 years from now.
Are we aiming for high end or low end car? Do we have a niche market? Curently China and India are building their own car. Can we can beat them pricewise and qualitywise? If not, we may want to consider changing gear.
We may want to learn from how Jack Welch revolutionize General Electric to make GE a world class player.
diong
15-02-2004, 03:16 PM
I am glad to see that Proton is making effort to revolutionize itself by rolling out new model. Yet, I think that there are few issues we need to take into consideration in view of the implementation of AFTA and the onslaught of globlization.
First, we need to visualize what we want to achieve 10 years from now. We need to identify the role we want to play in the car manufacturing industry 10-20 years from now.
Are we aiming for high end or low end car? Do we have a niche market? Curently China and India are building their own car. Can we can beat them pricewise and qualitywise? If not, we may want to consider changing gear.
We may want to learn from how Jack Welch revolutionize General Electric to make GE a world class player.
dinna_g
16-02-2004, 07:10 AM
An interesting fact: Do you know that Malaysia is one of the only eleven countries that manufactur cars?
I got this from a reliable source that I cannot mention.
dinna_g
16-02-2004, 07:10 AM
An interesting fact: Do you know that Malaysia is one of the only eleven countries that manufactur cars?
I got this from a reliable source that I cannot mention.
__earth
16-02-2004, 07:44 AM
11? on top of my head, i could name more than 11 countries
and it turns out, there are more than what i could have named here:
http://www.automotive-links.com/mak/mak.htm
__earth
16-02-2004, 07:44 AM
11? on top of my head, i could name more than 11 countries
and it turns out, there are more than what i could have named here:
http://www.automotive-links.com/mak/mak.htm
chenchow
16-02-2004, 08:54 AM
_earth, what dinna_g is mentioning about 11 countries that manufacture cars, is that those countries manufacture the cars from start till the end. Many countries are building parts of cars etc, but Malaysia is one of the 11 countries that have the capacity currently to manufacture entire car.
For instance, Malaysia does manufacture airplane wing for Airbus, but obviously at current time we don't have the ability to build an entire plane for commercial flight.
chenchow
16-02-2004, 08:54 AM
_earth, what dinna_g is mentioning about 11 countries that manufacture cars, is that those countries manufacture the cars from start till the end. Many countries are building parts of cars etc, but Malaysia is one of the 11 countries that have the capacity currently to manufacture entire car.
For instance, Malaysia does manufacture airplane wing for Airbus, but obviously at current time we don't have the ability to build an entire plane for commercial flight.
el_empty
16-02-2004, 01:37 PM
speaking of planes, if i'm not mistaken malaysia is testing the waters for an aerospace industry. don't mean to digress but again it would be a great idea, wonderful large-scale employer, and an outlet to lock in the prospective engineers that join the brain-drain bandwagon leaving the country. but i wonder if it can break a market dominated by airbus and boeing and others...
you know one way singapore created a strong demand for its own technology products is the defence industry. with Singapore Technologies Inc, this one company supplies products that range from third party manufactures/refurbishment to in-house products like weapons and sorts.
check this out http://www.stengg.com/kinetics/listing.aspx?pdtypeid=1
anyway, perhaps another outlet that hasn't really been explored by the malaysian technology consumers is the demand for weapons? i know this sounds crazy but, in a twisted sense of logic, the military demands the best and most sophisticated products, and it becomes a powerful market for local engineering and technology sectors to penetrate. computers, internet, ships, planes, clothing(!) are innovations revolutionized by the military industry.
perhaps there's an opportunity for the military and proton's R&D to manufacture, or even refurbish something for malaysia's defence, instead of constantly buying buying buying buying...
darn.... so out of topic...
el_empty
16-02-2004, 01:37 PM
speaking of planes, if i'm not mistaken malaysia is testing the waters for an aerospace industry. don't mean to digress but again it would be a great idea, wonderful large-scale employer, and an outlet to lock in the prospective engineers that join the brain-drain bandwagon leaving the country. but i wonder if it can break a market dominated by airbus and boeing and others...
you know one way singapore created a strong demand for its own technology products is the defence industry. with Singapore Technologies Inc, this one company supplies products that range from third party manufactures/refurbishment to in-house products like weapons and sorts.
check this out http://www.stengg.com/kinetics/listing.aspx?pdtypeid=1
anyway, perhaps another outlet that hasn't really been explored by the malaysian technology consumers is the demand for weapons? i know this sounds crazy but, in a twisted sense of logic, the military demands the best and most sophisticated products, and it becomes a powerful market for local engineering and technology sectors to penetrate. computers, internet, ships, planes, clothing(!) are innovations revolutionized by the military industry.
perhaps there's an opportunity for the military and proton's R&D to manufacture, or even refurbish something for malaysia's defence, instead of constantly buying buying buying buying...
darn.... so out of topic...
diong
16-02-2004, 02:21 PM
Hi el_empty,
You bring up a very good point that we have a very very competitive neighbour, Singapore, who always strive to dominate everything they do in Asia.
I wander if we can come out with something better than Singapore, palm oil product to cure cancer, maybe 8O .
Sorry to digress so much...
diong
16-02-2004, 02:21 PM
Hi el_empty,
You bring up a very good point that we have a very very competitive neighbour, Singapore, who always strive to dominate everything they do in Asia.
I wander if we can come out with something better than Singapore, palm oil product to cure cancer, maybe 8O .
Sorry to digress so much...
el_empty
16-02-2004, 02:33 PM
hahahha palm oil to cure cancer... good one... (though we can't rule it out yet :wink:
hey! i still remember a while ago PORIM (?) or somebody came up with a car engine tht runs on palm oil? whatever happened to that?????
el_empty
16-02-2004, 02:33 PM
hahahha palm oil to cure cancer... good one... (though we can't rule it out yet :wink:
hey! i still remember a while ago PORIM (?) or somebody came up with a car engine tht runs on palm oil? whatever happened to that?????
Schye
16-02-2004, 03:28 PM
Well, I heard that our government was trying to build our own sub marine 4 years ago from a "reliable source". But it seems that they still havent come out with it.
About military, I think actually our country is far left behind compared to other countries in SEA. Even Singapore has more jet fighter than us and we still dun have our own submarine too.
However, i thought we made our own small plane if i am not mistaken. How about it now?
Schye
16-02-2004, 03:28 PM
Well, I heard that our government was trying to build our own sub marine 4 years ago from a "reliable source". But it seems that they still havent come out with it.
About military, I think actually our country is far left behind compared to other countries in SEA. Even Singapore has more jet fighter than us and we still dun have our own submarine too.
However, i thought we made our own small plane if i am not mistaken. How about it now?
chenchow
17-02-2004, 12:26 AM
While it may be true that Singapore has more jet fighter than us, personally, I don't think that they build their own jet fighter. It is more of like they purchase those fighters from other countries...
Anyway, it does not mean that we are competitive enough... In a number of sectors, we are lagging behind Singapore and in a few sectors, we are even behind Thailand... We should definitely be always on our toes!
chenchow
17-02-2004, 12:26 AM
While it may be true that Singapore has more jet fighter than us, personally, I don't think that they build their own jet fighter. It is more of like they purchase those fighters from other countries...
Anyway, it does not mean that we are competitive enough... In a number of sectors, we are lagging behind Singapore and in a few sectors, we are even behind Thailand... We should definitely be always on our toes!
jiinjoo
17-02-2004, 04:07 AM
Oh ya, we didn't make much military weapons, but we did buy some (erm.. quite a bit)
http://www.ntu.edu.sg/idss/Perspective/research_050322.htm
The article gives a S'pore's view of the issue, and I can't find any good M'sian article. I guess if the government wants we can always revitalize the fire cracker industry. That will make us a weapons producer. Maybe made only for exports? 8)
As for PORIM, they have a comprehensive website. (They even try to patent stuff - http://www.moste.gov.my/kstas/s&t/porim.htm - don't know how it went). But in the R&D area I couldn't track down anything with cars - was it just a proposal? or someone actually came up with it?
Biodiesel.org is another website that I found that gives more information on how to burn plants. 8)
jiinjoo
17-02-2004, 04:07 AM
Oh ya, we didn't make much military weapons, but we did buy some (erm.. quite a bit)
http://www.ntu.edu.sg/idss/Perspective/research_050322.htm
The article gives a S'pore's view of the issue, and I can't find any good M'sian article. I guess if the government wants we can always revitalize the fire cracker industry. That will make us a weapons producer. Maybe made only for exports? 8)
As for PORIM, they have a comprehensive website. (They even try to patent stuff - http://www.moste.gov.my/kstas/s&t/porim.htm - don't know how it went). But in the R&D area I couldn't track down anything with cars - was it just a proposal? or someone actually came up with it?
Biodiesel.org is another website that I found that gives more information on how to burn plants. 8)
mercsinc
17-02-2004, 04:57 AM
hmmm, how did we get from the proton cars to weapons...?
lol
mercsinc
17-02-2004, 04:57 AM
hmmm, how did we get from the proton cars to weapons...?
lol
el_empty
17-02-2004, 12:10 PM
While it may be true that Singapore has more jet fighter than us, personally, I don't think that they build their own jet fighter. It is more of like they purchase those fighters from other countries...
ya... but singapore technologies has a sector where they refurbish aircraft. that's really profitable for them, financially and labor wise.
i don't remember where i've seen the vegetable oil engine - i only remember it being on tv, and i was very young, and there was mahathir (or some vip dude) smelling the exhaust (smells like pisang goreng) and giving the characteristic thumbs up.
hmmm.. you know all of us at recom bounce so many interesting ideas back and forth, i wonder if we can all, in some weird way, form a think-thank, and perhaps become some non-partisan source of ideas for the govt?
el_empty
17-02-2004, 12:10 PM
While it may be true that Singapore has more jet fighter than us, personally, I don't think that they build their own jet fighter. It is more of like they purchase those fighters from other countries...
ya... but singapore technologies has a sector where they refurbish aircraft. that's really profitable for them, financially and labor wise.
i don't remember where i've seen the vegetable oil engine - i only remember it being on tv, and i was very young, and there was mahathir (or some vip dude) smelling the exhaust (smells like pisang goreng) and giving the characteristic thumbs up.
hmmm.. you know all of us at recom bounce so many interesting ideas back and forth, i wonder if we can all, in some weird way, form a think-thank, and perhaps become some non-partisan source of ideas for the govt?
chenchow
17-02-2004, 12:13 PM
I have found about this from Malaysia Airod, which is involved in various aircraft industry. The website didn't seem to have much information...sigh...
but check it out
http://www.jaring.my/mbp/directory/ads/airod/airod.html
chenchow
17-02-2004, 12:13 PM
I have found about this from Malaysia Airod, which is involved in various aircraft industry. The website didn't seem to have much information...sigh...
but check it out
http://www.jaring.my/mbp/directory/ads/airod/airod.html
AhMean
17-02-2004, 12:32 PM
speaking of planes, if i'm not mistaken malaysia is testing the waters for an aerospace industry. don't mean to digress but again it would be a great idea, wonderful large-scale employer, and an outlet to lock in the prospective engineers that join the brain-drain bandwagon leaving the country. but i wonder if it can break a market dominated by airbus and boeing and others...
That would be great if they are trying to do something about the aerospace industry. First - job creation, Second - Technology Transfer, Third - Knowledge Creation, Fourth - Proton ecosystem utilisation.
Reading the past posts, I realised that there was a huge debate over the competitiveness of Proton as a company and how the continual government protection is not going to bring about the necessary critical changes in view of AFTA. That has to be addressed of course.
However, we should not miss out on the whole ecosystem (value chain) that is in place because of the car manufacturing industry. Basically to see the whole value chain, you just need to break the whole car into pieces: upstream companies/Proton divisions that produce spare parts, ball bearings, electronic circuit design, windshield; the actual assembly of engine and chasis; down stream companies that sell, distribute, provide services and the legion of products that go with the maintenance. There are a lot more holes that need to be fixed, not just Proton itself.
Was told by a friend that Proton used to and still import some important parts from Japan. However, instead of doing communicating with the Japanese directly, they went through a middle man that earn 200% on the cost of the imports and resell them to Proton. I think this is really dumb!
Having developed a car, the real challenge is no longer coming out merely with new, cool designs with a proprietary engine but to strengthen the positions of all participating industries such that values derived from experience, R&D, operational efficiency, marketing can flow through and we can then leverage the existence network to venture into aerospace or even the military industry.
AhMean
17-02-2004, 12:32 PM
speaking of planes, if i'm not mistaken malaysia is testing the waters for an aerospace industry. don't mean to digress but again it would be a great idea, wonderful large-scale employer, and an outlet to lock in the prospective engineers that join the brain-drain bandwagon leaving the country. but i wonder if it can break a market dominated by airbus and boeing and others...
That would be great if they are trying to do something about the aerospace industry. First - job creation, Second - Technology Transfer, Third - Knowledge Creation, Fourth - Proton ecosystem utilisation.
Reading the past posts, I realised that there was a huge debate over the competitiveness of Proton as a company and how the continual government protection is not going to bring about the necessary critical changes in view of AFTA. That has to be addressed of course.
However, we should not miss out on the whole ecosystem (value chain) that is in place because of the car manufacturing industry. Basically to see the whole value chain, you just need to break the whole car into pieces: upstream companies/Proton divisions that produce spare parts, ball bearings, electronic circuit design, windshield; the actual assembly of engine and chasis; down stream companies that sell, distribute, provide services and the legion of products that go with the maintenance. There are a lot more holes that need to be fixed, not just Proton itself.
Was told by a friend that Proton used to and still import some important parts from Japan. However, instead of doing communicating with the Japanese directly, they went through a middle man that earn 200% on the cost of the imports and resell them to Proton. I think this is really dumb!
Having developed a car, the real challenge is no longer coming out merely with new, cool designs with a proprietary engine but to strengthen the positions of all participating industries such that values derived from experience, R&D, operational efficiency, marketing can flow through and we can then leverage the existence network to venture into aerospace or even the military industry.
jiinjoo
17-02-2004, 12:57 PM
There are a lot more holes that need to be fixed, not just Proton itself.
But isn't that weird? I mean if these "holes" are fixed by just getting rid of the middleman, or figuring out simple parts instead of a monster like the engine, shouldn't it be fix already? There is a low lying grapes theory here right, eventhough engine is important, yes, but other "simpler" stuff can be develop at parellel, middleman can be reduced, production can be streamlined etc.
Unless, getting these parts are harder / costlier than building their own engine? Or maybe I can say the marginal benefit of putting people into these holes in the value chain have less net benefit? How would you justify that?
jiinjoo
17-02-2004, 12:57 PM
There are a lot more holes that need to be fixed, not just Proton itself.
But isn't that weird? I mean if these "holes" are fixed by just getting rid of the middleman, or figuring out simple parts instead of a monster like the engine, shouldn't it be fix already? There is a low lying grapes theory here right, eventhough engine is important, yes, but other "simpler" stuff can be develop at parellel, middleman can be reduced, production can be streamlined etc.
Unless, getting these parts are harder / costlier than building their own engine? Or maybe I can say the marginal benefit of putting people into these holes in the value chain have less net benefit? How would you justify that?
AhMean
17-02-2004, 01:29 PM
I think I have not been very clear over the industry wide perspective. In this value chain, with respect to Proton as a player, there are suppliers, competitors, complementors and customers (well, there are more to it depending on the framework that you are using). The suppliers, for example the ball bearing manufacturers in Malaysia, form a whole industry by themselves. Proton is not their only customer. They are a crucial part in the ecosystem of Proton and the quality of their products and innovations will matter. Another example, tyre manufacturing firm. The product will inevitably contribute to the perceived customer satisfaction despite the fact Proton might not be manufacturing their own tyre. All these companies in the ecosystem will play a part. I am not comparing these parts with Engine development. Totally two different issues here. I am taking a wider, strategic positioning of Proton in the whole industry that stretches wider that mere car manufacturing.
There is a low lying grapes theory here right
Sorry... what is this theory?
~!Mean
AhMean
17-02-2004, 01:29 PM
I think I have not been very clear over the industry wide perspective. In this value chain, with respect to Proton as a player, there are suppliers, competitors, complementors and customers (well, there are more to it depending on the framework that you are using). The suppliers, for example the ball bearing manufacturers in Malaysia, form a whole industry by themselves. Proton is not their only customer. They are a crucial part in the ecosystem of Proton and the quality of their products and innovations will matter. Another example, tyre manufacturing firm. The product will inevitably contribute to the perceived customer satisfaction despite the fact Proton might not be manufacturing their own tyre. All these companies in the ecosystem will play a part. I am not comparing these parts with Engine development. Totally two different issues here. I am taking a wider, strategic positioning of Proton in the whole industry that stretches wider that mere car manufacturing.
There is a low lying grapes theory here right
Sorry... what is this theory?
~!Mean
el_empty
17-02-2004, 01:58 PM
They are a crucial part in the ecosystem of Proton and the quality of their products and innovations will matter.
ya i agree they matter, but i think a whole lot less significant than what happens within proton itself. remember, proton in itself is a consumer of these products (your ball bearings and tyres etc) and if they believe these parts are substandard, then they have the liberty to procure their parts from elsewhere.
el_empty
17-02-2004, 01:58 PM
They are a crucial part in the ecosystem of Proton and the quality of their products and innovations will matter.
ya i agree they matter, but i think a whole lot less significant than what happens within proton itself. remember, proton in itself is a consumer of these products (your ball bearings and tyres etc) and if they believe these parts are substandard, then they have the liberty to procure their parts from elsewhere.
chenchow
17-02-2004, 11:38 PM
I agree with the supply chain and the effects towards the entire environment (or ecosystem as used by AhMean).
I would think that the best way to cut cost would be to jot down each and every single little process of the entire manufacturing process and try to find the bottlenecks. Those bottlenecks, be it the waiting period or otherwise, is the place where we need to get rid off, to have a significant time reduction. A reduction in time will bring in significant savings. The same goes to cost. We should evaluate each and every single portion of cost expensed.
On AhMean's note about the price of import, in fact, I think that happens too when government agencies try to procure things from various manufacturers within or outside the country. A lot of the prices are specially jacked up, and I think it is something not healthy. We should definitely step on a break on it, to reduce the wastage of public money. Nevertheless, I think Proton is using a significantly much lower percentage of import parts nowadays compared to before. However, I still believe that there are middlemen who play some roles in reaping extra profits even when Proton deals with local manufacturers and distributors.
In fact, I think Proton should try to leverage on its size and factor of economies to get a good deal of pricing and other services. Just look at how Walmart pushing their way through...
chenchow
17-02-2004, 11:38 PM
I agree with the supply chain and the effects towards the entire environment (or ecosystem as used by AhMean).
I would think that the best way to cut cost would be to jot down each and every single little process of the entire manufacturing process and try to find the bottlenecks. Those bottlenecks, be it the waiting period or otherwise, is the place where we need to get rid off, to have a significant time reduction. A reduction in time will bring in significant savings. The same goes to cost. We should evaluate each and every single portion of cost expensed.
On AhMean's note about the price of import, in fact, I think that happens too when government agencies try to procure things from various manufacturers within or outside the country. A lot of the prices are specially jacked up, and I think it is something not healthy. We should definitely step on a break on it, to reduce the wastage of public money. Nevertheless, I think Proton is using a significantly much lower percentage of import parts nowadays compared to before. However, I still believe that there are middlemen who play some roles in reaping extra profits even when Proton deals with local manufacturers and distributors.
In fact, I think Proton should try to leverage on its size and factor of economies to get a good deal of pricing and other services. Just look at how Walmart pushing their way through...
Ryosuke
17-04-2005, 05:54 PM
Proton is not a bad car. But one thing funny about Wira is that A LOT OF PEOPLE modified the car into sports car which is quite cool. Why don't Proton put a spoiler or something on the Car ? And hell Lancer Evo cost so much. Unlike in Australia, u can see lots of them cos they are too cheap but Proton car's in Aus is so expensive. And those 4wd Geez the tax is like so hardcore .
Ryosuke
17-04-2005, 05:57 PM
If you think that Proton is not developing well enough, not having creative design of its own, not having innovation of its own, challenge yourself to develop a better design, get a job with Proton and make your design a reality! A lot of ReCom members are top talented people, so this is not impossible! So, instead of complaining that Proton is substandard, why don't we try to learn and help innovate our national car industry!
Or better still, come up with a brand new car that you think can compete with Proton in Malaysian Market and compete with all the big guys in the global market.
sounds ridiculous?...it's actually not impossible.
But despite of my support of Proton, one caveat:
auto industry is extremely competitive.
Looking at the history of British Leyland Motor Corp (http://www.histomobile.com/histomob/presmark.asp?chat=25&lan=2) is enough to come up with the conclusion that it's not worth the competition.
However, it doesn't mean that Proton will continue to be marginalized in the auto market.
If Proton is wise enough to steal the niche market, it would survive.
(take a look at sleek design of VW for example, and compare the new Beatle with the original 'kereta kodok').
qedx, if you're wondering how Hyundai (or Kia) can be very successful companies, take a look at this:
Hyundai
Hyundai Motor was established in 1967 by the Hyundai group. However, for a long period it was just producing cars based on the design supplied by Ford UK. The first self-developed model was the ?74 Pony, but under the guidance of Mitsubishi. Engines also came from the Japanese design, while the styling was penned by Italdesign. The car earned Hyundai the name as the biggest Korean car maker which is still unchallenged today.
The second generation Pony of 1982 marked another milestone : the first large scale export. Like the Japanese, Korean?s industry was (and still is) very export-oriented. The Pony small car, benefited by the wage advantage of Korea labours, stormed the Canadian small car market in 1983. The world started to realise the rise of another Eastern car making nation.
The first self-designed engine appeared in 1991, which signalled the "real" autonomy of R&D. Sales continued to grow in the whole 90?s as model range expanded and quality improved. In 1998, Hyundai took over the bankrupted Kia.
Kia
Kia started producing cars in 1974 under Peugeot and Fiat?s licenses. In 1986. it partnered with Ford, produced the Festiva (Pride) for Ford. The 1992 Sephia and next year?s Sportage SUV reflected the independence of the company which started exporting cars under its own name. It became the third largest Korean car maker but over-expansion was hit by the Asian economy crisis in 1998. Kia bankrupted and was acquired by Hyundai in the same year.
SOurce: http://autozine.kyul.net/Manufacturer/Korea.htm
In Aus i dun think they will ever buy a Hyundai or a Kia car !
Ryosuke
17-04-2005, 06:01 PM
Did Proton had the big car ? i mean like Pajero or Van ? Perhaps in the future, there would be some. cos my father bought a Pajero becos of the size of the family.
Ryosuke
17-04-2005, 06:10 PM
I reckon the technology and the suspension Proton design should suite the type of road in Malaysia. I know Proton is doing a good job and its hard to design a car and to produce them. Good Job Proton cos if the suspension is not suitable for the road, i am sure the car will not be popular. Cos in Car Racing the profesional will know how to adjust the setting. Just a thought. No offense
digimushu
17-04-2005, 07:44 PM
I reckon the technology and the suspension Proton design should suite the type of road in Malaysia. I know Proton is doing a good job and its hard to design a car and to produce them. Good Job Proton cos if the suspension is not suitable for the road, i am sure the car will not be popular. Cos in Car Racing the profesional will know how to adjust the setting. Just a thought. No offense
No offense but there is huge difference between racing suspension characteristics and your everyday car. A typical family sedan, has softer suspension so that people will be more comfortable. A racing car need stiffer suspension so that it will have better road-holding ability. For the type of road in M'sia, i thinkproton did a pretty goo job. However, i think the component life remains to be desired.
eh? i thought we were talking about gen2? keluar tajuk dee ah? but speaking about sportcars, i hate people who modify normal(cheap) cars to look like other super cars. i've seen people modifying their wiras to look like evos. people, wake up! a wira's a wira, it'll never turn into evos. if you really wanted an evo, they goddamn buy yourself one. if you're too poor, then just stick with your old wira dude. i don't mind people modifying cars so that it look better but not totally changing it's look. and proton? i once read an article saying proton cars are not worth the price (only applies outside m'sia because proton cars are expensive in other countries). but anyhow, i would still very much want a satria gti. hmm...guess i'll have to start saving now.
kelvinlym
17-04-2005, 09:55 PM
Yes, I agree with everyone that building a car is not an easy job.
But Proton should really put a huge emphasis on product quality and reliability.
In my previous posts I was a bit naive about developing a product. I thought it's as easy as putting 2 and 2 together.
After a month of work experience in Nokia, after witnessing the difficulties of producing a mobile phone, let alone a car, I respect what Malaysia has done.
However, quality is very important and I feel Proton doesn't put enough emphasis on it.
As a Malaysian working in a fully foreign company and environment, I tend to notice the difference in work ethics of me (not generalising to all Malaysians) and the others.
I have this cincai attitude (sometimes not always), and when I do measurements and tests on manufacturing samples, I tend to say to myself, "Aiya, it's just 0.01 mm what". You know what I mean?
Maybe what Proton needs to do is to increase the quality of their suppliers and be very picky. At least I know Nokia is picky.
Ryosuke
18-04-2005, 12:37 PM
eh? i thought we were talking about gen2? keluar tajuk dee ah? but speaking about sportcars, i hate people who modify normal(cheap) cars to look like other super cars. i've seen people modifying their wiras to look like evos. people, wake up! a wira's a wira, it'll never turn into evos. if you really wanted an evo, they goddamn buy yourself one. if you're too poor, then just stick with your old wira dude. i don't mind people modifying cars so that it look better but not totally changing it's look. and proton? i once read an article saying proton cars are not worth the price (only applies outside m'sia because proton cars are expensive in other countries). but anyhow, i would still very much want a satria gti. hmm...guess i'll have to start saving now.
Yeap Yeap agree with u thats why i said it looks funny. Make the Wira into evo wonder if there is a copyright for that. Rofl. Gen 2 ? No thanks dont like the shape just my opinion
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