Patriotism

[chenchow]

There has been some discussion on this topic in the news posted. So, I guess it is better that we take this topic of patriotism and discuss it. You could read an article about National Service in the news section, to gain more understanding about National Service and patriotism.

[littlebigone]

do we still have national service?

[chenchow]

National Service is going to start next year, with the initial batch of 100,000 Form 5 leavers, who would be selected randomly by computer... It would be basically based on the percentage of each gender, race, state etc..... It would be for 3 months long, with one month of kind of Outward Bound School-type of activities and 2 months of National Service would be living in university dorms...

[qedx]

what happens if you refuse to go?

[dyenne10]

emmm..mcm penah dgr..ya..btul2...sbb tu ler uitm cuti pendel sem ni...sbb dgr2 naib canselor uitm nak amik projek tu..nak rekrut kt itm kot..hampeh...jd mcm taiwan laks...tp diorang kena kerah jd askar..

[littlebigone]

I;m confused now...wasn't there something like this last year or so then they cancelled?
Someone explain please

[chenchow]

The idea was mooted last year and it has been on the planning stage and they had had a trial run earlier this year, with 120 volunteers participating in it. Going on full steam for those people taking SPM this year, with 100,000 people and if successful, it would be done to all form 5 leavers.. Those going overseas to study could apply for postponement..

[littlebigone]

okay....then i fully support this....hahahahaha

[WilliamLee]

I have to thank those years in the Scouts movement for my sense of patriotism.

While in scouts, we had to take tests on Malaysian Government, Constitution and also know how to draw state flags, national emblem, national and state anthems, ministers in various departments, agencies....

wow, that's like a lot of stuff......but I think it created a sense of awareness for my country.
cheers

[chenchow]

I think uniform bodies do create a sense of discipline and patriotism. And referring to the article about Badawi, which says that he obeyed all rules during his Scout days. I could say that it helps at least a bit in our building up as a disciplined person, although in terms of creativity, it may suffer a bit.

[littlebigone]

I don't think you can compare badan beruniform with actual military training. I also don't think that knowledge is key to patriotism.

If you take away knowledge, I still think that we can love our nation. I for one agree that military training / national service would help foster stronger relationships between the members. And this is what I think national service will contribute most. The first step to loving your country is to be love and be willing to die for your countrymen (and women too).

[littlebigone]

i hope noone misunderstands what i meant by knowledge isin't key. I'm not saying that knowledge isn't important but if we took it away, we could still foster patriotism.

[chenchow]

I think about knowledge and patriotism.

We would have 2 different kind of patriotism. If people are without knowledge, then the kind of patriotism support would be just to follow whatever is being told. Basically, there is no thinking involved. I could recall being such a type of person during uniformed bodies. I would not say that it is completely a good thing or a bad thing...what do you guys think?

I think ideally, as our society progresses, we would want our people to be knowledgable and in that sense, they would learn to be patriotic, because they have the knowledge to judge what is being done. Everyone should accept constructive criticism and hopefully with that, we would be able to progress further.

[littlebigone]

The do without thinking is not patriotism. When I say knowledge is not key, I meant not to deemphasis knowlege but to put more emphasis on the heart. You can love without knowing. That's the point I'm trying to drive here. When you're put into a stress situation with others, a special bond develops. You trust the people you work with. You love them as if they were family. If all of Malaysia had this attitude, then we would truly be a patriotic nation. A nation that loves itself.

Idealistic? Maybe.

[qedx]

Patriotism is a tool that people in power will use to manipulate the common people. Let us take the situation in America, say, before the attack on Iraq. The most popular counter to any and all criticism involving the attack was saying that the critics were unpatriotic. And then a lot of the critics started saying that they were patiotic too, but their arguments started to crumble and they lost support because the nation had labeled them unpatriotic. Similiar scenarios were seen with the homeland security act and others.

One could say that one would not back down even if one's is labelled unpatriotic, but can you say that about everyone. Think about this, if you were raised to think that patriotism is good, a good citizen is a patriot, would you not balk if the leaders of your nation were to label you unpatriotic? I guess, what they say would not matter to you, personally, if you were to run against these very leaders in the elections, but what about the common people? Would the feel the same about you and you opinions if you were labelled unpatriotic?

I would prefer not to give governments the tools they need to remain in power.

And I shall not be dark but beautiful and terrible as the morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth. All shall love me and despair!

[littlebigone]

I agree that patriotism can be a tool. But even in it's purest form, it is merely a tool. A tool to harvest the hearts of young and old. A battle horn that seeks braves the cowardly and feeds the weary. If the note of the horn so smites your soul, then the call of patriotism will draw you to its gates.

Leave this tool in the hands of the corrupt and patriotism will fall foul. But lend this tool to the forces of light and a bright star shines in the sky. Thus we should not curse this tool but the hand that bears it.

sorry for the writing style, got caught up by the quotation that qdex used.. :lol:

[qedx]

And that is another reason why the Ring should be destroyed: as long as it is in the world it will be a danger even to the Wise. For nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so. I fear to take the Ring to hide it. I will not take the Ring to wield it.

Sure there are benefits, but it is so easy to misuse, it is scary. It sets into people's minds that the boss is always right. Any and all oppostion/criticism are to be considered wrong. Which is just wrong.

Look at the situation in Malaysia. The Everest climbing project, the Jalur Gemilang round the world record attempt. And just for the hell of it, Alex Yoong. Detractors of these projects were labelled unpatriotic. And the comments died down only to resurface once in a while in some PAS/keADILan/DAP lectures. And the projects themselves? Some succeeded and got its 15 minutes in the spotlight and nobody remembers them anymore; some failed and nobody remembers them at all.

PS: Haha sorry for all the Tolkien quotes, been reading/watching to much Lord of the Rings lately, and the text seems to be applicable.

[littlebigone]

I guess the problem here is a language problem. I can see where you're coming from and I fully agree with you. But don't you think that patriotism can exists without begin cultivated for political purposes.

Suppose say Malaysia goes to war in the next 3 weeks. And all the poor people who fail to get last minute MAS tickets out of the country are stuck. So they decide that together they fight and hand in hand they win this fight.

Now this country is theirs. They shed their blood for this country. They love it. They love the people who fought with them. In their minds, this land they live in is the bestest in the whole world. They would give everything to protect it from future invaders. They would put all their soul into making this land world renown.

Isn't this patriotism? It's not patriotism to the Malaysia. It's patriotism of to a nation that only these people know. So patriotism in this sense trancends govt. It trancends even the idea of Malaysia.

For all practical purposes, not many people will be able to experience this sort of patriotism. People have tried to "teach" patriotism. But failed. People have tried to make patriotism more concrete by the examples you so have aptly chosen (I especially like the Alex Yoong example). But these efforts are poor teachers. For patriotism is too abstract and cannot be quantified by how much someone supports the govt of his/her country.

***this is becoming more of a philosophical debate rather than a practical discourse on how to increase patriotism amongst Malaysians. I promise my next reply will move more towards the intial focus of this topic :lol: ****

When the black breath blows
and death's shadow grows
and all lights pass,
come athelas! come athelas!
Life to the dying
In the king's hand lying!

[qedx]

Sorry I took so long; I was thinking, mostly

Now this country is theirs. They shed their blood for this country. They love it. They love the people who fought with them. In their minds, this land they live in is the bestest in the whole world. They would give everything to protect it from future invaders. They would put all their soul into making this land world renown.

Isn't this patriotism? It's not patriotism to the Malaysia. It's patriotism of to a nation that only these people know. So patriotism in this sense trancends govt. It trancends even the idea of Malaysia.

Would they? Really? Is that not just people coming together in the face of adversity? And after the danger is over they will disperse again. Look what happened after Sauron was defeated: The Elves sailed into the west to Valinor, the Dwarves and Hobbits and Ents seem to have disappeared and Man went on with the business of Men.

Let us take your hypothetical warriors of Malaysia, after the danger is over, will they stay in Malaysia? If not, if danger comes again to Malaysia, will they fight for us again? Supposing they are just ordinary people and not bloodthirsty murderers, will they come to fight for Malaysia? Would you, if you were one if these people? I would guess that some might come because of friendships that they have made in Malaysia before, but a lot would just say "Fuck them, things happening over there has nothing to do with me," and stay put.

The point I am trying to make is: loyalty to what is essentially a piece of land demarcated by some lines drawn on a map is fleeting at best. It is the people that make up a country. If Malaysia were to be nuked right now, I would be enraged/devastated/insert other similar adjectives, because my family and other people I care about are there. But there should be other Malaysians elsewhere and when the Third World War and the nuclear winter is over, 800 years later, our descendants might come back to the surface to rebuild Malaysia, hopefully. :lol:

[chenchow]

Patriotism.....

Just a question: Do you guys the level of patriotism in Malaysia is at all time high or all time low, or it is somewhere in between....

Personally, I think all is not lost yet. With the number of Malaysians, even those who are overseas, but are very supportive of Malaysia, I feel relieve, but I think, we should act patrioticly, because of our love to our nation and not due to this is the nation we come from...

[littlebigone]

Actually, the king did pay visits to Sam even after the Great War. Not in the actual story but can be found in the appendix somewhere.

[littlebigone]

Good point about it is the people that make up the land. This is the point I was trying to make when I said that patriotism should go beyond country. It should go towards a bond between the peoples, a bond that motivates them to protect one another and hence the motherland. You put it very elegantly.

Let's think of another scenario, say Malaysia sinks to the sea or as you described, gets nuked to the pitholes of hell. No land. No patriotism? If one or two people are left then I think patritiosm is as good as dead. But say there are millions of Malaysians abroad. Woudln't they feel enraged and feel violated. Then they would demand some land to build a nation like some other group of people that shall remained unmentioned. But the point is, as you said, it is the people that make up the land.

[littlebigone]

Just wanted to say that recom has made me more patriotic. :D It wasn't as if I wasn't patriotic before, but it was more of an indifferentness, coz I had the thinking that I couldn't make a difference. I'm just a young kid hanging around the block. But now i see so many people like me and we're here together discussing issues that pertain to the future of our country.

Let's take it to the next level kids.

Today, the web, tomorrow the world!!!! oh wait, the web is the world.....

[Thirdshifter]

National service would serve nobody but the goverment. It will ofcourse be used as a very good place to start Pro-BN anti-opposition Propaganda.

Although not official but This has been going on for years just not on a national level. UMNO, MCA and MIC had been known to use tax money to organize trips for Students all expense paid.

Where i grew up, Free School, PG. UMNO wuld occasionally round up young Malay folks and inform them about a trip to some nice places every year. While these young kids are lucky to get a free vacation there's always the Speech and propaganda they have to spread in the process.

Few years later most of these kid are going to eventually vote for guys whom been giving them free vacations every year.

To be a patriotic person, one should first earn a gold medal in self criticism. I hate seing Malaysian being a comfirmist of everything that the Malaysian goverment do.

[__earth]

I have one question and it's a libertarian's dilemma.
Should we be proud of our nationality and have this spirit of patriotism?
Should we be proud when the only criteria that makes us a citizen of a country is merely the principal of jus soli?
We didn't choose our nationality, unless of course, if you apply for the citizenship, that's another story.

[Thirdshifter]

I can only be proud of my country, if my country serves me. I would definitely return the favor.

[__earth]

I can only be proud of my country, if my country serves me. I would definitely return the favor.

ah, but here's a paradox. aren't you supposed to serve the country first rather than the other way round?

[Thirdshifter]

I can only be proud of my country, if my country serves me. I would definitely return the favor.

ah, but here's a paradox. aren't you supposed to serve the country first rather than the other way round?

already doing that, by paying my taxes.

[iQing]

Hmmm... I remember seeing an advertisement...
there's a guy eating at a roadsite stall...
the stall got full of customers...

when the TV is playing Negaraku
he stands up and sing negaraku....
in front of everyone

maybe we all should do that....

hehehe...

"think, try and triumph"

iQing

[chenchow]

Relating to the singing of Negaraku at roadsite stall, would like to ask you all whether you would be standing up straight and sing out loud, Negaraku, when Malaysia won a gold medal, say in SEA Games, Asia Games. Take it to be you were watching the sports on TV at your home, would you do that? When you see Malaysian sportsman winning or losing, would that make a difference to you? Do you see the fighting spirits of some respectable sportsmen?

[wwhong]

i think the most i will do is stand up to show my respect but not singing Negaraku out loud. maybe if someone do that, he/she will be sent to tanjung rambutan? i know maybe chenchow will do that, don't you? haha just kidding.

maybe the true patriotism is "ask what you can do for your country, not what your country can do for you"? i think patriotism should not be based on the stand that i do something for you and you must do something back for me. as long as one is contributing to the country constructively in his/her area and daily life, that should be considered as patriotic act.

of course, as mentioned by one of our beloved minister, just hang as many flags as possible. (increase the flag manufacturers' profit so that they can pay more taxes to government to show their patriotism?)

[ciwan]

to me patriotism is something that come from inside.
i'm very moved with how patriotic the American people are.
you can see their true love for their country whenever the national athem is being played.
i went to lakers, clippers and USC trojans game.
everyone was so pumped up and excited.
when the song starts playing, everybody will stand up, put away their caps, some even put their hand across the chest and proudly singing the song.
i cant even remember how many time have i heard the song that i can sing quite a bit right now; i memorize some of the phrases of the song.
it is not that i intend to memorize it, it just become easy for me to remember it.
we malaysians however show our patriotism in a different way.
in regard to the national anthem, not many of us feel proud when 'Negaraku' is being played.
some of us feel that 'Negaraku' is just another patriotic song that is boring and doesnt pumped up your spirit and excitement.
i personally sometime take the song for granted; i only listen to it casually, just like when i listen to today's hit songs.
what i'm trying to say is that we need to teach people to apprecite the song and use it to inspire ourselves to become more patriotic.
we need to play 'Negaraku' at any event; especially at sporting events like soccer matches.
i sometimes shed tears when i heard 'Negaraku' being played at sporting events where Malaysians won; it just make me love Malaysia even more.
if i can i really want to thank everybody who has contributed something for Malaysia; in sports, academics, entertainment industries, politics, etc.
i just wish that i could one day do the same; make all of us proud of being Malaysian.


well i've talked so much and i dont really know what the hell am i talking about.
i feel like i want to become more active in discussion at recom.
just think about what I said and tell us what u think.

[Thirdshifter]

In america it's jinggoism, Considering USA fight major combat every 20 years they consistently see their citizen dying. So they are easily moved by their national anthem.

In Malaysia, Japan and many other Asian country we have Ultranasionalism. They will only start being patriotic, once one of their own died and the leaders start playing the cards about revenge.

True patriotism from My Opinion is simply doing your best in the interest of your country. critisizing it for once, Educate the un-educated, Learn it history, Not sing a song at a ball game or put your hand across your chest and sing passionately.

[CrAzyCow]

I admire the patriotism shown by the US ppl. Although they might dislike their president, they still love their country. I guess it comes down to how much a country evolved throughout history n how much citizens have gain from it.

Personally, i dun think patriotism can be measured. I cannot say i am half patriotic... or if i hang more flags i am more patriotic.. sing negaraku everyday? . Is either u are patriotic, or u are not. U love ur country or u dun? In times of war, will you fight for ur country or would u flee?

As a Malaysian, i would like to enjoy the benefits of being a citizen. Currently, i dun see that being enforced. Why is there 2 classes of citizens? We are all in the same country, same soil. Why should the government treat different individuals differently?

Until this can be rectified, patriotism will forever be where it is now. Nothing will change... as usual.

[chenchow]

The best moment that I had felt about being Malaysian was when I was studying in Singapore. There used to be an annual Malaysia Night over there, during national day.

Malaysians, irrespective of races, work together, to organize such an event. During the stroke of midnight of Merdeka Day, Malaysians automatically blast out their National Anthem from their room where 2 blocks were facing each other and many Malaysians just sing out loud Negaraku spiritedly. I still remember many moments when I was studying in Singapore, and we were singing patriotic songs together, the spirit was so high that we could really feel as a Malaysian. During the Merdeka day, when many Malaysians join together to sing all the patriotic songs, the spirits among them is tremendous. A question arises: Why do those Malaysians only feel so strongly about them being Malaysians when they are on foreign soil?

I still remember when I was studying in Singapore, when a few other Malaysians and I, were fighting with Ministry of Education of Singapore to allow us to organize Malaysia Night. The spirit of nationalism was so strong, that all emails of us, ended with MALAYSIA BOLEH!!! We felt so passionate about organizing the Malaysia Night to celebrate Merdeka. We went to Ministry of Education to negotiate the organization of Malaysia Night and when it was eventually granted, nothing could describe our feelings. Although it was just to be a one-night event, we felt as if we have gotten independence for Malaysia when we were granted the permission to organize that. As I am typing this now, my eyes are in tears flashing back on those moments. I really hope that I could relive those moments.

That was in the year of 2000. Although I got JPA scholarship and had to leave Singapore a week before the national day, the spirits and feelings then really stayed with me. That was what I had written in my application essay that brought me to Cornell. That was my happiest moment...

[topdog]

Why do those Malaysians only feel so strongly about them being Malaysians when they are on foreign soil?
Maybe....because familiarity breeds contempt?

[masterof_none]

I can only be proud of my country, if my country serves me. I would definitely return the favor.

ah, but here's a paradox. aren't you supposed to serve the country first rather than the other way round?

already doing that, by paying my taxes.

If we think carefully, running a country is like running a club.
People pay for the monthly fee , let say $5 and it's up to the committee to spend it.

Now, let's make thing simple. If you're the member of the club, let's say the USC Anime club, and you know, you pay the fees, just to watch boring Anime every week such as Kokoro Library. what should you do?
You know, if the money that you spent on the fees can be use it wisely, you can watch a good Anime such as Princess Nine (<-- the best! ) (or maybe FruitBasket if you will ) , what do you do?

You can do many things. Whether you simply quit, or , protect your interest.
To protect your interest, this is what you should do :
Serve the club, for the best. Let them listen to you. Let you explain why showing Kokoro Libarary is not the best option, and why you should show Princess Nine.
Would the committee listen to you? Of course, if they know you work hard for the club and will protect it at all cost.
But if you're random member, do you think they want to hear you?

Same like country, JFK said:
"ask not what your country can do for you-
ask what you can do for your country"

we, of course, don;t want to be a random member in Anime club if we think that the club run poorly.
we , of course, will protect our country at all cost. Protect it from corruption and misinformation. Self- criticizing is good.
But too much criticizing without any effort to improve the situation would be as good as not criticizing at all.

[Thirdshifter]

Master of none, although I understand what your trying to imply, I must say Since we're a democratic nation it is what our leaders promised us to do if elected. We vote pay taxes and hope the leader do what he intended to do. In most cases they fail, hence an election of a new leader with new promises.

If all the elected leaders failed it will be your choice to either run for office or deal with it (the current goverment).

Unfortunately in our Totalitarian Goverment , Choosing a new leader is very difficult. That's an understatement. Almost imposible. It is the first time in my life i heard a Elected Prime minister Retires.

So we're only left with one option, which is hope for the best. It is sad that our country is not in the hand of it's people but the few self appointed People that hides behind the idea of Democracy.

[silverblue]

Why do those Malaysians only feel so strongly about them being Malaysians when they are on foreign soil?
Maybe....because familiarity breeds contempt?

We will definitely feel strongly about our identity when we are in another country. When a foreign person asks us about about our country, I am sure most of us would proudly say nice things about our land and people. And when they challange our country, we'll definitely feel upset and all pumped up to defend Malaysia..

For example, there was this recent uproar about Dr Mahathir's opening OIC speech that raised eyebrows of westerners everywhere. An article was published in the Cornell Daily that criticized our ex-PM unfairly. As responsible and country-loving denizens of Malaysia, a few of us Malaysians decided to team up to write a letter back to the editorial to clarify and reclaim our country's name. And as we were writing the letter, I was aware of how strong my feelings were for my country... and how this is an act of patriotism - to stand up and defend our beloved country when she is being assulted with skewed remarks. If we were just ignorant, ashamed and nonchalant about that article, then perhaps we are not yet proud citizens of Malaysia.

But the bottomline here is that, true faith to our country emanates when we are in a foreign land... Are we proud to tell people that we are from Malaysia, or will we think twice about telling people of our origin simply because we have the notion that we will be sidelined after doing so?

[topdog]

We need to make the distinction between our "country" and our "leaders". I love my country, but that does not mean I have to love my leaders. No politician is beyond reproach, especially in countries that call themselves democracies.

[masterof_none]

Unfortunately in our Totalitarian Goverment , Choosing a new leader is very difficult. That's an understatement. Almost imposible. It is the first time in my life i heard a Elected Prime minister Retires.

So we're only left with one option, which is hope for the best. It is sad that our country is not in the hand of it's people but the few self appointed People that hides behind the idea of Democracy.

We have to remember, Democracy , is just an 'ideal'.
an 'ideal' may be right , or totally wrong. the ideal that fails, including
Socialism.

I used to have the same thought, you know, where all the politicians make empty promises and all that stuff.
But, when I broaden my view, I thank God that our government relatively one of the best running government in ASEAN countries.
(at least in southeast asia)

I think it's good for Dr M to be not retired. I actually support him to stabilize the country. He create political stability. And asa you might guess, political stability is the most important variable in the investment equation.

This is because, it's hard to build a country, with complex , multiracial country like Malaysia. I think what Dr M thought was this:

" I need to fix this".

Look at our closest neigbor, Indonesia.
when they didn't like Suharto, they revolted, and then , when they they didn't like BJ Habibi, they revolted, then , when they don't like BJ, they revolt and chose Gus Dur ....etc.


Now, this is , at a glance , really democracy is all about. Give the power to the people. But , do you think this is the best method?

I think it is not.

Keep changing leaders is problematic. Nobody invest in the coutry,
Government is at chaos. No clear development framework.
Political instability discourage Foreign Direct Inv.
I read lots of investors pulled out their investments during these crazy transition period of Indonesia.


Our country is still in a transition. It is a long process b4 we got to the 'ideal' democratic state. It takes a while, it takes a lot of time to find the 'right' formula to define what's definition of democracy that fit us.

Although democracy means give the power to the people, we can define it by ourselves, in our context, what suite us.

[silverblue]

I think patriotism is more about loving your country rather than loving your leaders.

Our country is much more than our leaders. I think it's about our sense of belonging... our sense of feeling at home... I mean, how can you feel for or love something that you don't feel comfortable with? I see my love for my country as my love for the culture, our language (even manglish! that's just so unique to us!), our people, our FOOD (especially!!!), our weather (I dont really like the harsh winter), the way modernity and traditions intermingle and grow together, and countless other things about Malaysia! I mean, I'd love to live in US for a few years, but eventually, I would want to grow old and die in Malaysia because this is where I was born and this is where I want to die in. This is a place where I grew up in, a place of familiarity and a place where I no matter where I go, I know that I will not feel 'foreign' like how I'd feel if I were in another country...

[topdog]

Our country is still in a transition. It is a long process b4 we got to the 'ideal' democratic state. It takes a while, it takes a lot of time to find the 'right' formula to define what's definition of democracy that fit us.

True, I agree. America had almost 300 years to get to where it is now. We are less than 50 years old. Democracy is not perfect. Well, no form of government is.

Well, I think the thinking right now among Malaysians is not to rock the boat. Since everyone seems to be making a comfortable living, why challenge something that has been in place since independence?

I guess Malaysia can be called a benevolent near-dictatorship, much like Singapore, only not as rich. We let the government do whatever they want, and in return the government gives us stability and a good economy. Has been working so far. The problem with this form of government is we can only hope that those running the country are people of integrity. There's not much check and balance, since there's no real threat from opposition parties.

Hopefully there will come a time when Malaysian become more sophisticated in their thinking and demand something better. But yeah, I guess between Malaysia's benevolent dictatorship and Indonesia's hastily implemented democracy, I would stick with the former.

[Thirdshifter]

Unfortunately in our Totalitarian Goverment , Choosing a new leader is very difficult. That's an understatement. Almost imposible. It is the first time in my life i heard a Elected Prime minister Retires.

So we're only left with one option, which is hope for the best. It is sad that our country is not in the hand of it's people but the few self appointed People that hides behind the idea of Democracy.

We have to remember, Democracy , is just an 'ideal'.
an 'ideal' may be right , or totally wrong. the ideal that fails, including
Socialism.

I used to have the same thought, you know, where all the politicians make empty promises and all that stuff.
But, when I broaden my view, I thank God that our government relatively one of the best running government in ASEAN countries.
(at least in southeast asia)

I think it's good for Dr M to be not retired. I actually support him to stabilize the country. He create political stability. And asa you might guess, political stability is the most important variable in the investment equation.

This is because, it's hard to build a country, with complex , multiracial country like Malaysia. I think what Dr M thought was this:

" I need to fix this".

Look at our closest neigbor, Indonesia.
when they didn't like Suharto, they revolted, and then , when they they didn't like BJ Habibi, they revolted, then , when they don't like BJ, they revolt and chose Gus Dur ....etc.


Now, this is , at a glance , really democracy is all about. Give the power to the people. But , do you think this is the best method?

I think it is not.

Keep changing leaders is problematic. Nobody invest in the coutry,
Government is at chaos. No clear development framework.
Political instability discourage Foreign Direct Inv.
I read lots of investors pulled out their investments during these crazy transition period of Indonesia.


Our country is still in a transition. It is a long process b4 we got to the 'ideal' democratic state. It takes a while, it takes a lot of time to find the 'right' formula to define what's definition of democracy that fit us.

Although democracy means give the power to the people, we can define it by ourselves, in our context, what suite us.

Again, the success of Malaysia lies in the hands of Malaysia not it's leaders. If you chose to believe it was the goverment that retain civility in Malaysia throughout this year, i truly hope you think about it again.

It was the self-developed telorence between races in Malaysia that kept Malaysia in one peace. Remember Indonesia has a totally different demographically speaking. 99.5% of the population of Indonesia is Muslim. Malaysia 59%.

Indonesia is by far devoloping a very healthy Democratic Nation but ofcourse the Muslim Fundelmentalist/Radical is pursuing an Islam State much like Our PAS only more aggressive and violent i must say.

Socialism on the other hand is something i would not want. Because history had taught us that it always fails. A Perfect democracy is never achievable but fine tuning it would be something we have to do.

Remember that in Malaysia we know the consequences of racial division, May 13th?

Most Muslim in Malaysia is also considered very moderate compared to its other Muslim nation couter parts due to it lives co-existently with other Religion. Although Fights do break out here and there, it's very minimal.

There's so many things in Malaysia that could've had been better. But thats the past and i certainly hope we the next generation don't let it happen again.

[chenchow]

I fully agree that love for the country is different from love for the leaders. While we should try to complement our elected leaders, we could do a lot for the good sake of Malaysia. Treat foreigners nicely would definitely improve the image of Malaysia. Help a foreign tourists that got lost in Malaysia, would definitely leave them a good memory. Even a smile to them would help boost the name of Malaysia. When we are overseas, we speak to others about Malaysia. Do you think that those would help to boost the name of Malaysia?

Share resources, experience that you have. Everyone has a different kind of life, and we have different experiences accumulated. If you share those experience to others, esp our fellow Malaysians, would it be that they would also have at least part of that experience.

If we strongly believe about something, say spread the awareness of speaking English, we could help complement the effort of our government, by encouraging your friends to speak English. It is a chain reaction. Your actions may trigger your friends to help encourage others. Although you may only be able to help 5 to 10 people, it is still better than nothing. If everyone in Recom is doing that, then we would have helped 3000 people. Isn't that great?

That is also a kind of patriotism. Patriotism is not only shown by raising our national flag. Each of us has our own way to show that, and the main thing is that we should show that.

While we may point fingers at our government, and saying that they fail to deliver. But let me pose a question: Do we believe in anything that they have done? If yes, do we do anything to complement their efforts? When we think of an issue, do we think about people from all walks of life? While it is easy to just think from one perspective, but a lot of issues, we need to think for different groups of people, different geographical region, different segment of society...

[topdog]

My brain is about to explode thinking about all these heavy duty issues.
:?

[Schye]

Our country is much more than our leaders. I think it's about our sense of belonging... our sense of feeling at home... I mean, how can you feel for or love something that you don't feel comfortable with? I see my love for my country as my love for the culture, our language (even manglish! that's just so unique to us!), our people, our FOOD (especially!!!), our weather (I dont really like the harsh winter), the way modernity and traditions intermingle and grow together, and countless other things about Malaysia! I mean, I'd love to live in US for a few years, but eventually, I would want to grow old and die in Malaysia because this is where I was born and this is where I want to die in. This is a place where I grew up in, a place of familiarity and a place where I no matter where I go, I know that I will not feel 'foreign' like how I'd feel if I were in another country...

I was thinking of posting the same idea but I just found Cheryl post it before me.

To me, I love Malaysia because it is my HOME.
No one choose to be born in a country just like we can?t choose where we were born, but we can choose how we want it to be. Either to improve it, to make it a better place, to destroy it or just leave it (if you can afford to).

We love Malaysia because government gives us highway? Because of we have KLCC, KLIA or Cyber Jaya?! Or we will hate Malaysia if it is all kampung? Or it has no roads at all? NO! We are not doing mathematics here. It?s the FEELING, not the profits that make us love our home or our country.
That is why I am not so agree with the idea of saying that we serve our country by paying tax or singing Negaraku. Paying Tax doesn?t show that you love your country because you HAVE to do so. It will be a different case if we can choose how many percent we want to pay the government as we wish, and then maybe we can see how patriotic we are: wink:

Let us look at the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan. Why are there people attacking US soldiers while some are supporting them? Why are there so many people helping those guerillas? It is because they are protecting a place where they called home, neither the government nor the country. They may not be supporting those guerillas but they won?t say no if those guerillas ask for help.
I have met a lot of Indonesian Chinese and most of them told me that they wont go back to Indonesian and not feel like going back again. They told me that they hate Indonesia but when I asked them would they guide me if I am going there, they told me how good Indonesia is. One may HATE or LOVE their own country but after all, the only reason that they love or hate will be just one, THEY CARE and that explain all.

In fact, Malaysians whoever read news about Malaysia, whoever feels like home in Malaysia, whoever cares about Malaysia, they are patriotic... If you feel like Malaysia is just a place like everywhere else, then no matter how many tax you pay, no matter how success you are (may have won a gold medal for Malaysia or own a big company), you are still unpatriotic to me.
We love our HOME not because they give us a place to stay; it?s the sense of BELONGING and the LOVE.

Patriotism <- Care/Sense of belonging <- Time and effort put it

Basically, the more time you spend in Malaysia, the more you did for Malaysia, the more patriotic you will be.
Maybe it is human?s nature to find and to love their root.
Maybe one day when the story of Star Trek ever becomes reality, we will all stand up to protect the earth.
Maybe one day, the war between systems ever happens, we will all stand up to protect it.

But what I know now is:
I love my home.
I love my family,
I love my friends.
I love all Cheryl has said above.
Adding all up, I think that is why I love Malaysia.
And I will do anything to protect me HOME ? not Malaysia government though

Does all above make me sound patriotic?
Yes? No?
Who cares ?

Going to sleep now and what I know is I can sleep much more better at home than my dorm here although the bed here is better.......maybe I am the only one: oops:
Sorry for this unorganized post.

[__earth]

may i make a suggestion?
You guys should seriously consider consicing (if that's really a word with the root consice) your posts.
it took me a loooooooooooooooooooooong time to catch up with the argument and all.

joking. just trying to light up the oh-so-serious topic =)

[chenchow]

I believe that the long post, was due to the spirit that everyone had. So much to say, and so much to shout out loud. Before this forum in Recom, we do not have so much avenue to say something and others would read it and comment back to us... But conciseness is a very important skill, which i am lacking...

Schye, very well said and i have to say that your post sounds very mature.

We can love our country in many ways. Do we talk passionately about Malaysia, when our friends ask us where we came from? Do you feel like clearing the name of Malaysia, when others speak badly about Malaysia? Would you feel bad, if a CEO told you that they had been cheated while doing business in Malaysia? Would you keep on comparing with the situation that you are at(say you are at overseas) with the situation back at home? Do you want Malaysia to be a better country? Do you care about what is happening in Malaysia?...

If you answer yes to any of those, then you do care about Malaysia... We may do it differently, but our vision is the same... for a better Malaysia in the future...

[Ryosuke]

Sorry I took so long; I was thinking, mostly

Now this country is theirs. They shed their blood for this country. They love it. They love the people who fought with them. In their minds, this land they live in is the bestest in the whole world. They would give everything to protect it from future invaders. They would put all their soul into making this land world renown.

Isn't this patriotism? It's not patriotism to the Malaysia. It's patriotism of to a nation that only these people know. So patriotism in this sense trancends govt. It trancends even the idea of Malaysia.

Would they? Really? Is that not just people coming together in the face of adversity? And after the danger is over they will disperse again. Look what happened after Sauron was defeated: The Elves sailed into the west to Valinor, the Dwarves and Hobbits and Ents seem to have disappeared and Man went on with the business of Men.

Let us take your hypothetical warriors of Malaysia, after the danger is over, will they stay in Malaysia? If not, if danger comes again to Malaysia, will they fight for us again? Supposing they are just ordinary people and not bloodthirsty murderers, will they come to fight for Malaysia? Would you, if you were one if these people? I would guess that some might come because of friendships that they have made in Malaysia before, but a lot would just say "f*** them, things happening over there has nothing to do with me," and stay put.

The point I am trying to make is: loyalty to what is essentially a piece of land demarcated by some lines drawn on a map is fleeting at best. It is the people that make up a country. If Malaysia were to be nuked right now, I would be enraged/devastated/insert other similar adjectives, because my family and other people I care about are there. But there should be other Malaysians elsewhere and when the Third World War and the nuclear winter is over, 800 years later, our descendants might come back to the surface to rebuild Malaysia, hopefully. :lol:

I agree with u. I am LOTR freak fan as well

[Ryosuke]

Well let me ask u what my Pendidikan Moral teacher as us before. If a war broke up here and we were called to defend will you run or will u go ?

Taken into account WW1 and WW2 are those soldiers really loyal ? And the Kamikaze Japanese spirit ?

[zqax]

hey,
when i was leaving ferry in penang last week,there is a guy,singing "Malaysia Berjaya" loudly, and i must admit his vocal is very good,just like the one we heard from TV(he should apply for Malaysian Idol).
Wow, I was amazed, a bit shocked and affraid, cause he was marchingin my direction to board the ship, I had went Penang by ferry more than 100 times, but that is the first time I saw ppl singing patriotic song aloud.There are 2 possibilities, he had went nuts, or he is emotional and eager to show his patriotism.

[gohweihan]

Well let me ask u what my Pendidikan Moral teacher as us before. If a war broke up here and we were called to defend will you run or will u go ?

Taken into account WW1 and WW2 are those soldiers really loyal ? And the Kamikaze Japanese spirit ?

My Moral paper question during SPM. For me, if it is a war to take out this government (i.e. like US invading Iraq), I would gladly support the invaders. Other situations would require a case-by-case analysis.

[boafan]

there was an article about implementing playing the Negaraku in cinemas in malaysia b4 da movie starts and everyone has to stand to attention n sing it..their aim is to instill patriotism...wat do u guys think ? i think that patriotism cannot be forced whatsoever...no offense, though..

[Ace_Spade]

patriotic? lol, it's not hard to find a malaysian not knowing how to sing 'Negaraku'...really :wink:

[iQing]

there are also malaysians who can sing Negaraku very well, encourage people to be patriotic and keep coffee money in thier pockets.

[taufiq]

schye.. i looking high at you..
=)

I like your opinion about people who fight for their countries
even though they were lebelled as guerillas (and some of them as terrorist). It's their countries..

Well it might be more essential to do it diplomatically, but when no one listen.. that's what will happen. However, killing innocent people is not the right way.. that's not patriotic at all.

[DecentMerson]

schye.. i looking high at you..
=)

I like your opinion about people who fight for their countries
even though they were lebelled as guerillas (and some of them as terrorist). It's their countries..

Well it might be more essential to do it diplomatically, but when no one listen.. that's what will happen. However, killing innocent people is not the right way.. that's not patriotic at all.

well... terrorists, guerillas.... whatever... it's just a different point of view....

because we are getting our news from those Networks like CNN, NBC, ABC, MSNBC and more, so, those who fight against them will be labelled as terrorists...

if u are getting translated news, let say from Iraq, maybe they will start name-calling the American troops as well...

another thing, Patriotic is not all about singing national anthem...
yes, we should be proud of our national anthem... one should know how to sing it...

but that's not all... finding a person who doesn't know how to sing the national anthem is not a sign that Malaysians aren't patriotic...

as those things mentioned by Schye... that's patriotism...

in my opinion, song singing is just another way to spread patriotism... to instill the patriotism in all the young minds(hopefully)... one should respect the national anthem and other patriotic songs... but, not knowing or knowing how to sing it doesn't make you a less or more patriotic person...

[iQing]

I would like to know your opinion.

do you think Jeff Ooi is a patriot?
www.jeffooi.com

[stevemc90]

he said he's but i dont think so

[iQing]

why do you think he is not a patriot?

[taufiq]

I visit screenshots once in a while
i think he must have sense of patriotism somewhere in his mind/heart
it's subjective.. not like we can judge him just like that.. well at least in my opinion
what he did/is doing is thinking his opinions aloud

some people like his opinion and of course some people don't
for me, at least i get some information about what's happening in our country from his site as well.

[stevemc90]

he's concerned with what's happening with the country. good thing. but what he does is only critise this and that. did he really come back to msia to serve the country as what he said earlier? (if find it somewhat interesting and boring to read his blog. therefore i dont read it fully)

he's just compiling all the bad stories together and tell the tale.

[qedx]

at least he's not sweeping all the bad stories under the carpet for the sake of "keeping a united front -_-

[iQing]

I think you are right on compiling bad news.

He display a satelite picture of KL and says that our forest is raped (come on, KL is the capital city of the whole country, you cannot expect it to be a green kampong, look at the satelite pics of Beijing and Tokyo and you see worse stuffs)

He also criticise online billing of being discriminitive. bah!

[stevemc90]

at least he's not sweeping all the bad stories under the carpet for the sake of "keeping a united front -_-


ok, you're right. but if u read most of his entries, it's all the bad things. yet, he claimed that he's willing to forgo his current $ 44k or 22k job just to work in his beloved country bla bla bla bla bla....

but where is he now? and what has he been doing (regardless to the country or in his blog)?

can you justify someone who talks about patriotism (he does) but yet, he does nothing about it.

[stevemc90]

he must have sense of patriotism somewhere in his mind/heart
it's subjective.. not like we can judge him just like that.. well at least in my opinion
what he did/is doing is thinking his opinions aloud

some people like his opinion and of course some people don't
for me, at least i get some information about what's happening in our country from his site as well.


yeah, but where?

im not saying that his opinion is bad... in fact, i found it very interesting but is he the kind of person that just know how to talk the talk but not walk the walk? we've yet to find out.

[taufiq]

Yeah.. maybe we can say that he only know how to do the talking...
It might be okay to say that his opinions are not patriotic in some ocassion... but to say that he is not-patriotic-at-all.. is like too much..
i think he still loves malaysia too.. just like us..
i'm not defending him at all.. my opinion stands for anyone voicing out his/her opinion about what is happening around

It seems like we are attacking him personally right here.. without him defending himself (because he doesn't know).. he might attack us as well if he knows what we are doing over here...

[stevemc90]

ok, i agree with you taufiq... :)

[Randomphantom]

For me, I don't think that his being critical of every negative aspect of Malaysia IS being unpatriotic. In fact it shows that he does care about Malaysia, perhaps in his own way.

And its not all hot steam & whining - he gathers the facts and presents it, not a hunky-dory portrayal of things like we are so accustomed to. And its doing something for the country, in his own little way. Bad stories are needed because we are having too little of it in our government-controlled press.

Its as a balanced diet of news for an objective view of Malaysia. Its like listening to local news reports slamming Israel while media moguls in US portray Israel in a nice light.

So one just hopes that somewhere in between, therein lies the truth.