Diskriminasi

[hendra]

Berita terbaru dari Sydney mengenai satu tunjuk perasaan dan bantahan ganas yang berlaku di Redfern, Sydney. Dikatakan polis Australia mengamalkan dasar diskriminasi bangsa dan tentunya ini membuatkan pelajar-pelajar Malaysia berasa takut untuk tinggal di sini. Apa yang perlu dilakukan???

[hendra]

Berita terbaru dari Sydney mengenai satu tunjuk perasaan dan bantahan ganas yang berlaku di Redfern, Sydney. Dikatakan polis Australia mengamalkan dasar diskriminasi bangsa dan tentunya ini membuatkan pelajar-pelajar Malaysia berasa takut untuk tinggal di sini. Apa yang perlu dilakukan???

[wawa]

bukankah itu pasai Aborigine? :)

[wawa]

bukankah itu pasai Aborigine? :)

[chenchow]

Thanks Hendra for bringing this issue up!

Personally, I will look at this issue as saying that we should stay calm. If it is controllable, we should not retaliate through improper means. If we were really hurled abuses at us, the main thing is just to keep ourselves safe and then only try to solve it with the help of Embassy etc.

However, I think the situation should be controllable. Try avoid going alone to risky places and it should be fine. Every country will have their fair share of this kind of problems!

What to others think?

[chenchow]

Thanks Hendra for bringing this issue up!

Personally, I will look at this issue as saying that we should stay calm. If it is controllable, we should not retaliate through improper means. If we were really hurled abuses at us, the main thing is just to keep ourselves safe and then only try to solve it with the help of Embassy etc.

However, I think the situation should be controllable. Try avoid going alone to risky places and it should be fine. Every country will have their fair share of this kind of problems!

What to others think?

[Thirdshifter]

ha!.. discrimination in Australia? Oh lord!!

I pity the bangladeshi, Indonesians, Philippines in Malaysia...i guess when it comes to issues that doesn't involve Malaysians we do tend to not really show a great amount of concern.

I wonder what would the Malaysian Royal Police do if they were a Violent protest in Malaysia done by these Immigrants in Malaysia.. More brutality? Raping? geez i could go on.

[Thirdshifter]

ha!.. discrimination in Australia? Oh lord!!

I pity the bangladeshi, Indonesians, Philippines in Malaysia...i guess when it comes to issues that doesn't involve Malaysians we do tend to not really show a great amount of concern.

I wonder what would the Malaysian Royal Police do if they were a Violent protest in Malaysia done by these Immigrants in Malaysia.. More brutality? Raping? geez i could go on.

[topdog]

ha!.. discrimination in Australia? Oh lord!!

I pity the bangladeshi, Indonesians, Philippines in Malaysia...i guess when it comes to issues that doesn't involve Malaysians we do tend to not really show a great amount of concern.

I wonder what would the Malaysian Royal Police do if they were a Violent protest in Malaysia done by these Immigrants in Malaysia.. More brutality? Raping? geez i could go on.

my sentiments exactly.

[topdog]

ha!.. discrimination in Australia? Oh lord!!

I pity the bangladeshi, Indonesians, Philippines in Malaysia...i guess when it comes to issues that doesn't involve Malaysians we do tend to not really show a great amount of concern.

I wonder what would the Malaysian Royal Police do if they were a Violent protest in Malaysia done by these Immigrants in Malaysia.. More brutality? Raping? geez i could go on.

my sentiments exactly.

[luke]

Berdasarkan penggunaan perkataan "di sini" yang saudara Henra gunakan, saya mengagak saudara berada di Sydney/Australia sekarang. Jadi, saya ingin bertanya pendapat saudara, pernahkah diskriminasi sebegitu berlaku pada diri saudara dan rakan-rakan senegara atau adakah semuanya itu perkara yang sengaja dihebah-hebahkan (exaggeration)? Jika perkara sedemikian pernah berlaku, terukkah? Jikalau tidak begitu serius, tidak perlulah saudara dan rakan-rakan berasa bimbang. Sememangnya diskriminasi berlaku di mana-mana. Memang sesuatu yang sukar dielak. Bersabarlah dan berhati-hati dengan tingkah-laku saudara. Tetapi jikalau diskriminasi itu memberi kesan yang teruk maka eloklah perkara ini diketengahkan kepada pihak berkuasa, contohnya Jabatan Pelajar Malaysia di Australia ataupun Kedutaan Malaysia.

[luke]

Berdasarkan penggunaan perkataan "di sini" yang saudara Henra gunakan, saya mengagak saudara berada di Sydney/Australia sekarang. Jadi, saya ingin bertanya pendapat saudara, pernahkah diskriminasi sebegitu berlaku pada diri saudara dan rakan-rakan senegara atau adakah semuanya itu perkara yang sengaja dihebah-hebahkan (exaggeration)? Jika perkara sedemikian pernah berlaku, terukkah? Jikalau tidak begitu serius, tidak perlulah saudara dan rakan-rakan berasa bimbang. Sememangnya diskriminasi berlaku di mana-mana. Memang sesuatu yang sukar dielak. Bersabarlah dan berhati-hati dengan tingkah-laku saudara. Tetapi jikalau diskriminasi itu memberi kesan yang teruk maka eloklah perkara ini diketengahkan kepada pihak berkuasa, contohnya Jabatan Pelajar Malaysia di Australia ataupun Kedutaan Malaysia.

what's the news source, or is this just a rumor?

I seriously doubt that any Australian police that blatantly displays racial discrimination will not be dismissed.

what's the news source, or is this just a rumor?

I seriously doubt that any Australian police that blatantly displays racial discrimination will not be dismissed.

[Thirdshifter]

what's the news source, or is this just a rumor?

I seriously doubt that any Australian police that blatantly displays racial discrimination will not be dismissed.

sounds more like a big controversy

here's few article about it from few different sources
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3505709.stm
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2004/2/16/latest/15996Policeinj&sec=latest
http://www.guardian.co.uk/australia/story/0,12070,1149134,00.html
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,8698883%255E2702,00.html

the riot was on the 15th of february

[Thirdshifter]

what's the news source, or is this just a rumor?

I seriously doubt that any Australian police that blatantly displays racial discrimination will not be dismissed.

sounds more like a big controversy

here's few article about it from few different sources
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3505709.stm
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2004/2/16/latest/15996Policeinj&sec=latest
http://www.guardian.co.uk/australia/story/0,12070,1149134,00.html
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,8698883%255E2702,00.html

the riot was on the 15th of february

[noneedname]

--------




letter from friend ------------





I read noneedname letter and immediately told my wife that it felt like I was looking into a mirror. You see, my family and I have, like noneedname and his family, decided to leave Malaysia.

Certainly, it is my belief that if I do not take my family out of this country, I will continue to subject my child, and her children after her, to the continuing injustice of this contract. I often thought the new administration under our new prime minister presents new hopes for fairer treatment.

just as the previous PM was an exciting breath of fresh air some 22 years ago but proved so putrid much later on, I feel I cannot subject my child and her children after her, to the same risk. That risk being that this PM too, may abandon fresh hopes for justice in exchange for immediate gains to himself, his family, his supporters and his race.

I had the chance of a quick brush with a young man, who represents the future of the ruling party.

He was trying to explain what went wrong in respect of the many who could not be given places to study medicine in local universities, despite scoring top marks. He thought it had something to do with the fact that the assessment procedures were totally academic, and as academic capabilities of students reached a plateau where many scored top marks, another dimension needed to be introduced, to further differentiate these talents.

This was necessary as there were simply not enough places for medicine in local universities as more and more scored top marks. I kept very quiet as he did his quick discourse.

I thought it was painfully obvious the shortage of places came about principally because there was a backdoor through which many entered and took up seats. While many more scored top marks in STPM than before, many continue to gain entry without having to.

If a bright, very well-educated, articulate young man espoused thoughts which totally ignored the fundamental injustice of our system, what future does our country hold?

If this is future prime minister material, then I really feel people like noneedname and I are doing the right thing by taking our children out. Bright people may not be just people. No matter how bright and well-educated our future leaders are, if they choose to continue to hold on to an obviously unjust system, we cannot subject our children's future to these leaders.

My father did not have the opportunity to leave. I now have to pay the price of starting anew - abandoning a secured and well-paid job - so that my child escapes the injustice.

Am I enjoying life here in KL? You bet. Like noneedname, my wife and I draw incomes for lifestyles too painful to sacrifice. Yet, if we choose to be concerned only with our own job security and comfortable lifestyles, our child may one day be faced with the decision I now face.

What if she does not have the same opportunity to leave for another country? I feel I must leave now, while the window remains open.





----------

[jackfook]

Racism happens anywhere in the world including the modern countries.They are proud of being themselves and refuse to recognize the other races and consider immigrants as uncivilized races.They are not qualified to share facilities and right to be the members of the country.We cannot do anything because we are staying in their country.We can protect ourselves by looking after our attitude and behaviour.We respect people,they respect us.

[gohweihan]

Racism happens anywhere in the world including the modern countries.They are proud of being themselves and refuse to recognize the other races and consider immigrants as uncivilized races.They are not qualified to share facilities and right to be the members of the country.We cannot do anything because we are staying in their country.We can protect ourselves by looking after our attitude and behaviour.We respect people,they respect us.

So what you're saying is live with it?

[gohweihan]

Berita terbaru dari Sydney mengenai satu tunjuk perasaan dan bantahan ganas yang berlaku di Redfern, Sydney. Dikatakan polis Australia mengamalkan dasar diskriminasi bangsa dan tentunya ini membuatkan pelajar-pelajar Malaysia berasa takut untuk tinggal di sini. Apa yang perlu dilakukan???

Kenapa hal ini dijadikan isu sedangkan di Malaysia sendiri, diskriminasi berlaku dan kebenaran melakukan diskriminasi ini termaktub di dalam perlembagaan?

Jika Malaysia sebagai sebuah negara tidak menyokong diskriminasi, tunjukkanlah bahawa ia tidak mengamalkan diskriminasi, dan jangan mengkritik apa yang berlaku di negara orang lain.

[aftershox]

Jika Malaysia sebagai sebuah negara tidak menyokong diskriminasi, tunjukkanlah bahawa ia tidak mengamalkan diskriminasi, dan jangan mengkritik apa yang berlaku di negara orang lain

i totally agree with this point... it would be like the pot calling the kettle black... if a country does not practise discrimination( which i think still occurs in few places in malaysia) do not critic wat happens in other countries... you should look at yourself first before you accuse someone else of something...

[gohweihan]

Jika Malaysia sebagai sebuah negara tidak menyokong diskriminasi, tunjukkanlah bahawa ia tidak mengamalkan diskriminasi, dan jangan mengkritik apa yang berlaku di negara orang lain

i totally agree with this point... it would be like the pot calling the kettle black... if a country does not practise discrimination( which i think still occurs in few places in malaysia) do not critic wat happens in other countries... you should look at yourself first before you accuse someone else of something...

Erm...pinch yourself. It's not happening in a few places, and no, it's not your imagination or something - it is indeed happening in Malaysia. And it's protected under certain articles in the constitution. :D

[yeeyen]

Article number: 8
8.

(1) All persons are equal before the law and entitled to the equal protection of the law.

(2) Except as expressly authorized by this Constitution, there shall be no discrimination against citizens on the ground only of religion, race, descent or place of birth in any law relating to the acquisition, holding or disposition of property or the establishing or carrying on of any trade, business, profession, vocation or employment.

Article number: 12
12.

(1) Without prejudice to the generality of Article 8, there shall be no discrimination against any citizen on the grounds only of religion, race, descent or place of birth -

(a) in the administration of any educational institution maintained by a public authority, and, in particular, the admission of pupils or students or the payment of fees; or

(b) in providing out of the funds of a public authority financial aid for the maintenance or education of pupils or students in any educational institution (whether or not maintained by a public authority and whether within or outside the Federation).

BUT

Article number: 153
153.

(2) Notwithstanding anything in this Constitution, but subject to the provisions of Article 40 and of this Article, the Yang di-Pertuan Agong shall exercise his functions under this Constitution and federal law in such manner as may be necessary to safeguard the special provision of the Malays and natives of any of the States of Sabah and Sarawak and to ensure the reservation for Malays and natives of any of the States of Sabah and Sarawak of such proportion as he may deem reasonable of positions in the public service (other than the public service of a State) and of scholarships, exhibitions and other similar educational or training privileges or special facilities given or accorded by the Federal Government and, when any permit or licence for the operation of any trade or business is required by federal law, then, subject to the provisions of that law and this Article, of such permits and licences.


Just thought this would be interesting.

[gohweihan]

yeeyen, thanks for posting those articles from the constitution up here. I was to lazy to search through my copy for them.

On another note, to analyze it further, the discrimination that exists in Malaysia under those articles violates a few articles within the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, 1948. The articles violated are:

Article 1

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 19

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Article 26(1)

Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.

In addition to this, there are a few policies introduced in Malaysia which contradicts certain articles within declarations and conventions made by the United Nations. The link to some of them are listed here:

Declaration on the Elimination of All Forms of Intolerance and of Discrimination Based on Religion or Belief (http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/d_intole.htm)
Convention against Discrimination in Education (http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/d_c_educ.htm)

[stevemc90]

Article number: 8
8.

(1) All persons are equal before the law and entitled to the equal protection of the law.

(2) Except as expressly authorized by this Constitution, there shall be no discrimination against citizens on the ground only of religion, race, descent or place of birth in any law relating to the acquisition, holding or disposition of property or the establishing or carrying on of any trade, business, profession, vocation or employment.

Article number: 12
12.

(1) Without prejudice to the generality of Article 8, there shall be no discrimination against any citizen on the grounds only of religion, race, descent or place of birth -

(a) in the administration of any educational institution maintained by a public authority, and, in particular, the admission of pupils or students or the payment of fees; or

(b) in providing out of the funds of a public authority financial aid for the maintenance or education of pupils or students in any educational institution (whether or not maintained by a public authority and whether within or outside the Federation).

BUT

Article number: 153
153.

(2) Notwithstanding anything in this Constitution, but subject to the provisions of Article 40 and of this Article, the Yang di-Pertuan Agong shall exercise his functions under this Constitution and federal law in such manner as may be necessary to safeguard the special provision of the Malays and natives of any of the States of Sabah and Sarawak and to ensure the reservation for Malays and natives of any of the States of Sabah and Sarawak of such proportion as he may deem reasonable of positions in the public service (other than the public service of a State) and of scholarships, exhibitions and other similar educational or training privileges or special facilities given or accorded by the Federal Government and, when any permit or licence for the operation of any trade or business is required by federal law, then, subject to the provisions of that law and this Article, of such permits and licences.


Just thought this would be interesting.


you are trying to qoute some of the fundamental liberties provided in the federal constitution and bringing up article 153.

what's your motive?

if you wanna discuss it, by all means, do it but it sounds political to me if you wanna discuss in this forum.

you could be charged under Sedition Act 1948.

this issue only can be discussed in the parliament and universities (academically).

[stevemc90]

yeeyen, thanks for posting those articles from the constitution up here. I was to lazy to search through my copy for them.

On another note, to analyze it further, the discrimination that exists in Malaysia under those articles violates a few articles within the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, 1948. The articles violated are:

Article 1

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 19

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Article 26(1)

Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.

In addition to this, there are a few policies introduced in Malaysia which contradicts certain articles within declarations and conventions made by the United Nations. The link to some of them are listed here:

Declaration on the Elimination of All Forms of Intolerance and of Discrimination Based on Religion or Belief (http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/d_intole.htm)
Convention against Discrimination in Education (http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/d_c_educ.htm)

As far as i'm concerned, only Article 10 in Malaysia's federal constitution contradicts with Article 19 of UDHR 1948.

[gohweihan]

All of us here are blessed with the ability to think - which is why I posted the few articles here. The contradictions are as follow:

Article 1 - Malaysia acknowledges a certain group of people as different and gives them more rights than the other group, which is stated in Article 153 in the Federal Constitution.

Article 2 - With reference to Article 26, there is a violation of this article in regards to distinction based on race.

Article 19 - ISA and press control says it all.

Article 26(1) - With the dual system in Malaysia and the acknowledgement of one of these systems being an easier route in order to allow a certain group of people to qualify for university through easier means, the concept of meritocracy does not stand in this case.

[gohweihan]

you are trying to qoute some of the fundamental liberties provided in the federal constitution and bringing up article 153.

what's your motive?

if you wanna discuss it, by all means, do it but it sounds political to me if you wanna discuss in this forum.

you could be charged under Sedition Act 1948.

this issue only can be discussed in the parliament and universities (academically).

The Federal Constitution is political in nature. To discuss it in this nature is to discuss politics, so no matter if it's discussed here or any other place, anyone could be charged under the Sedition Act 1948 if and when they discuss it.

The idea is this - are we mature enough to discuss this without the use of threats of arrests and prosecutions. Are we capable of analyzing this issue, and see truly what's right and what's wrong with Malaysia today, in which in some cases, it may be traced back to certain sources?

I believe that nobody here would resort to the threat of reporting anyone here and shutting down ReCom when they see these issues being discussed, no matter how fired up it may get.

Change is inevitable for Malaysia. And change can only come about if people discuss it, and realize the rights and wrongs about the current scenario.

[stevemc90]

All of us here are blessed with the ability to think - which is why I posted the few articles here. The contradictions are as follow:

Article 1 - Malaysia acknowledges a certain group of people as different and gives them more rights than the other group, which is stated in Article 153 in the Federal Constitution.

Article 2 - With reference to Article 26, there is a violation of this article in regards to distinction based on race.

Article 19 - ISA and press control says it all.

Article 26(1) - With the dual system in Malaysia and the acknowledgement of one of these systems being an easier route in order to allow a certain group of people to qualify for university through easier means, the concept of meritocracy does not stand in this case.


this will make the special branch (PDRM) shut the forum
down. :wink:

Article 1 vs Article 153: if u know what really happened back then (not according to the history books), you will know why there's a group of ppl have these kind of special privilege (which i wish not to discuss further)

Article 26 v Article 12: there's nothing wrong about this. check msia's constitution. the problem to this is the implementation of the system not the constitution.

Article 19 v Art 149: there's an exclusion for this. :wink:

[gohweihan]

What I said wasn't all specifically targetted at the Federal Constitution. Some of it is like you said it, the implementation of the policies (in regards to Article 26(1) of the UNDHR 1948).

[yeeyen]

you are trying to qoute some of the fundamental liberties provided in the federal constitution and bringing up article 153.

what's your motive?

if you wanna discuss it, by all means, do it but it sounds political to me if you wanna discuss in this forum.

you could be charged under Sedition Act 1948.

this issue only can be discussed in the parliament and universities (academically).

Trying? I wasn't trying, I WAS quoting the Constitution. <grin> ok, sorry, i'm just being irritating, i know.

Anyway, my motive? To tell people what is in our constitution. I consider myself to be more interested in Malaysia than most of my peers already, but when you ask them how many have read the COnstitution, exactly how many will answer yes? Very few, i think. I should like to spread knowledge about our country and her guidelines, and yes, i want to spark discussion on it. How else can we progress? And on that note let me share another bit of information on the constitution.

An amendment in 1971(tellingly after May 13) made it seditious of any one questioning "sensitive issues" namely rights and priviledges etc. established or protected by those constitutional provisions relating to citizenship, to the national language and the use of other languages for non-official purposes, to quotas for Malays and natives of Borneo and the protection of the legitimate interest of other communities, and to the sovereignty of the Rulers.

Perhaps before we question Article 153, we should first question this act (ACT A30).Or is that seditious too? Probably is. I'm not sure about that. Anyway, basically we have an act that we aren't allowed to question because of another act. So exactly what can we question? sorry, not a law student, can someone help me out here?

Just a thought, but i do think that it would be much better perhaps to allow discussion, if just to help me understand the complete need for all these acts. After all, like you said,

Article 1 vs Article 153: if u know what really happened back then (not according to the history books), you will know why there's a group of ppl have these kind of special privilege (which i wish not to discuss further)

I didn't live back then, though I have read the history books and heard the stories. And from all accounts, life really was very different, and so was society. Is it still like that? Do you suppose Malaysian society has evolved to be above all that? That we can have mature discussions about our contry's constitution without worrying about sparking a riot?

Things have changed, but sometimes you just have to wonder why others don't.

[yeeyen]

I just reread and i figure that my post is a little confusing. Sorry, I'm slightly agitated.

Anyway, i wanted to ask a question. My copy of the constitution is rather old, and perhaps some one else could give me more updates on this.

In the article on equality, my copy mentions nothing on forbidding discrimination against sex. Have they put that it? Thanks.

[stevemc90]

I just reread and i figure that my post is a little confusing. Sorry, I'm slightly agitated.

Anyway, i wanted to ask a question. My copy of the constitution is rather old, and perhaps some one else could give me more updates on this.

In the article on equality, my copy mentions nothing on forbidding discrimination against sex. Have they put that it? Thanks.

hahahaha... i think i know more bout constitution than u guys coz im taking as a subject as the matter of fact.

anyway, due to datuk sharizat jalil's hard work, the word 'gender' has been inserted to the article so that there's an equality for both genders b4 da law.... :)

[gohweihan]

hahahaha... i think i know more bout constitution than u guys coz im taking as a subject as the matter of fact.

Knowing and analyzing are two different things. I could know nothing but a little bit of the constitution and argue a whole logic against a person who knows the constitution like the back of his hand.

[stevemc90]

hahahaha... i think i know more bout constitution than u guys coz im taking as a subject as the matter of fact.

Knowing and analyzing are two different things. I could know nothing but a little bit of the constitution and argue a whole logic against a person who knows the constitution like the back of his hand.


it's not that im not analyzing or whatever and i think that u've insulted me. anyway, i couldnt care less.... but if one day, we have the chance to meet, i dont mind talking with u about this..... seriously i dun think that this is a good place to talk about this.....

call me a sissy or whatever..... :)

[gohweihan]

hahahaha... i think i know more bout constitution than u guys coz im taking as a subject as the matter of fact.

Knowing and analyzing are two different things. I could know nothing but a little bit of the constitution and argue a whole logic against a person who knows the constitution like the back of his hand.


it's not that im not analyzing or whatever and i think that u've insulted me. anyway, i couldnt care less.... but if one day, we have the chance to meet, i dont mind talking with u about this..... seriously i dun think that this is a good place to talk about this.....

call me a sissy or whatever..... :)

Sorry, I really didn't mean to offend or insult you. I'm really sorry for the misconception I created.

I'm just saying that the concept of knowing the constitution, or some, may just mean knowing exactly what articles are in there, like memorizing it.

But then again, I personally wouldn't make a statement like what you've made earlier. In my view, just because I take a subject in something doesn't mean I'm better in that than others. In fact, there may be others who are better than me, but without taking the subject, they cannot prove it.

[stevemc90]

hahahaha... i think i know more bout constitution than u guys coz im taking as a subject as the matter of fact.

Knowing and analyzing are two different things. I could know nothing but a little bit of the constitution and argue a whole logic against a person who knows the constitution like the back of his hand.


it's not that im not analyzing or whatever and i think that u've insulted me. anyway, i couldnt care less.... but if one day, we have the chance to meet, i dont mind talking with u about this..... seriously i dun think that this is a good place to talk about this.....

call me a sissy or whatever..... :)

Sorry, I really didn't mean to offend or insult you. I'm really sorry for the misconception I created.

I'm just saying that the concept of knowing the constitution, or some, may just mean knowing exactly what articles are in there, like memorizing it.

But then again, I personally wouldn't make a statement like what you've made earlier. In my view, just because I take a subject in something doesn't mean I'm better in that than others. In fact, there may be others who are better than me, but without taking the subject, they cannot prove it.

dude,

listen. now there are a lot of things behind the constitution that you probably dont know of. yeah, u can make assumption bout it and no body will care about that. what i was trying to say is that, we learn about almost everything, politically, historiacally, socially etc. and regarding to my so called statement bout im taking it as a subject, the constitution doesnt just work the way that u think it is. how logic can you be when you don't know the truth? well, im not trying to show off anything here but i just wanted to tell u that this might get us in a lot of trouble if you discuss bout this openly. In university, yes, u can do it because it is done academically.

here? you'd probably spend the rest of 24 hours in a police station or will be remanded for another 14 days. worse comes to worst, charged under Sedition Act or ISA.

think about that dude. dont just shoot at me blindly. think of the consequences


enough said.

[gohweihan]

dude,

listen. now there are a lot of things behind the constitution that you probably dont know of. yeah, u can make assumption bout it and no body will care about that. what i was trying to say is that, we learn about almost everything, politically, historiacally, socially etc. and regarding to my so called statement bout im taking it as a subject, the constitution doesnt just work the way that u think it is. how logic can you be when you don't know the truth? well, im not trying to show off anything here but i just wanted to tell u that this might get us in a lot of trouble if you discuss bout this openly. In university, yes, u can do it because it is done academically.

here? you'd probably spend the rest of 24 hours in a police station or will be remanded for another 14 days. worse comes to worst, charged under Sedition Act or ISA.

think about that dude. dont just shoot at me blindly. think of the consequences


enough said.

First off, when I quoted you and said that some people may just know about the constitution as what it contains, I didn't refer to you. When you say you're insulted, I apologized (even though the statement is clear that it wasn't targetted at you, yet it may somehow offend you), but at the same time, I took the time to clarify what my opinions meant, because not everyone who takes the constitution as a subject learns what you do. Some people may just be different - you'll never know that.

And I did not in any way shoot you blindly - I'm firm about that.

Also, I think I see where this is heading now. You learn about the constitution (and this is the real everything), and in the process, you also learn about the consequences of an open discussion about the constitution, probably directly taught to you, or hinted to you via some way which lead you to know about the Sedition Act 1948.

This creates knowledge that if you discuss it openly, you could be jailed. Yes, that is the truth, undeniably. However, think again. No doubt, we could be jailed, but what is the rationale for this law?

The idea is simple - you know more than I do (which I wouldn't deny) about the constitution, but do you dare talk about it, here and now, or anywhere in public? Are you the type who agrees that there's something wrong, but keeps your mouth shut (or semi-shut) just because you fear being arrested (or maybe you're just otherwise)? If that's the case, then what's the use of learning about the constitution? To know that you cannot talk about it?

Knowledge is only useful if it's questionable - only then could it improve. If you learn it, and say that you can't question it, and others shouldn't too because there is somehow something that forbids it, then ultimately what you've learnt is useless because it cannot be analyzed and dissected to improve it. You learn stagnant (or if I may, useless) knowledge, that's all, because you cannot in any way use them practically except for knowing what not to say. Simply, it teaches you that keeping your mouths shut and not questioning the constitution is good.

Before you hammer me, think about it carefully. Why learn something when you cannot question that knowledge, and with the inability to be questioned by the masses, this leads to zero or negative development?

[stevemc90]

dude,

listen. now there are a lot of things behind the constitution that you probably dont know of. yeah, u can make assumption bout it and no body will care about that. what i was trying to say is that, we learn about almost everything, politically, historiacally, socially etc. and regarding to my so called statement bout im taking it as a subject, the constitution doesnt just work the way that u think it is. how logic can you be when you don't know the truth? well, im not trying to show off anything here but i just wanted to tell u that this might get us in a lot of trouble if you discuss bout this openly. In university, yes, u can do it because it is done academically.

here? you'd probably spend the rest of 24 hours in a police station or will be remanded for another 14 days. worse comes to worst, charged under Sedition Act or ISA.

think about that dude. dont just shoot at me blindly. think of the consequences


enough said.

First off, when I quoted you and said that some people may just know about the constitution as what it contains, I didn't refer to you. When you say you're insulted, I apologized (even though the statement is clear that it wasn't targetted at you, yet it may somehow offend you), but at the same time, I took the time to clarify what my opinions meant, because not everyone who takes the constitution as a subject learns what you do. Some people may just be different - you'll never know that.

And I did not in any way shoot you blindly - I'm firm about that.

Also, I think I see where this is heading now. You learn about the constitution (and this is the real everything), and in the process, you also learn about the consequences of an open discussion about the constitution, probably directly taught to you, or hinted to you via some way which lead you to know about the Sedition Act 1948.

This creates knowledge that if you discuss it openly, you could be jailed. Yes, that is the truth, undeniably. However, think again. No doubt, we could be jailed, but what is the rationale for this law?

The idea is simple - you know more than I do (which I wouldn't deny) about the constitution, but do you dare talk about it, here and now, or anywhere in public? Are you the type who agrees that there's something wrong, but keeps your mouth shut (or semi-shut) just because you fear being arrested (or maybe you're just otherwise)? If that's the case, then what's the use of learning about the constitution? To know that you cannot talk about it?

Knowledge is only useful if it's questionable - only then could it improve. If you learn it, and say that you can't question it, and others shouldn't too because there is somehow something that forbids it, then ultimately what you've learnt is useless because it cannot be analyzed and dissected to improve it. You learn stagnant (or if I may, useless) knowledge, that's all, because you cannot in any way use them practically except for knowing what not to say. Simply, it teaches you that keeping your mouths shut and not questioning the constitution is good.

Before you hammer me, think about it carefully. Why learn something when you cannot question that knowledge, and with the inability to be questioned by the masses, this leads to zero or negative development?

no doubt that there are a lot of loopholes in msia's political system. lets go back to the basic shall we? what is the main reason for you to question the constitution? is it because of the unfair treatment that your race has received? is it because because that u think that your race or whoever's shall be the one receiving the benefits? is it because that you think that all the races should be treated equally? or what do you want from the government to be exact? how many of the forum members have stood up and make their stand except for you and another girl if im not mistaken?

are you not given education by the government? are you not getting scholarship from the government? are you not enjoying the harmony created by the government (in general)? are you not happy with what you have now?

sorry gtg! champions league final! ciao :twisted:

[digimushu]

why oh why....?

Well...why settle for mediocrity when you can have excellence?

:)

[gohweihan]

are you not given education by the government?

Yes, but that's their responsibility, not my priviledge. It's their job to serve us as the citizens. Education is one of them. We, the people, are the master.

are you not getting scholarship from the government?

No, I am not. I'm under ASEAN. Therefore, I owe the Malaysian government nothing.

are you not enjoying the harmony created by the government (in general)?

I don't enjoy fake harmony. The government owes the people true harmony, which it doesn't seem to bother to try to bring about.

are you not happy with what you have now?

No, I am not. If I was, I would have posed different questions instead of the ones now.

[zAiTsEv]

If we're so easily satisfied with what we've now, we won't improve. Enough said.

[stevemc90]

If we're so easily satisfied with what we've now, we won't improve. Enough said.


hahahaha... my fren... being satisfied doesnt mean that there's no room for improvement. ENOUGH SAID.

[stevemc90]

are you not given education by the government?

Yes, but that's their responsibility, not my priviledge. It's their job to serve us as the citizens. Education is one of them. We, the people, are the master.

are you not getting scholarship from the government?

No, I am not. I'm under ASEAN. Therefore, I owe the Malaysian government nothing.

are you not enjoying the harmony created by the government (in general)?

I don't enjoy fake harmony. The government owes the people true harmony, which it doesn't seem to bother to try to bring about.

are you not happy with what you have now?

No, I am not. If I was, I would have posed different questions instead of the ones now.


in conclusion, u just want to enjoy some privilege i see there. correct me if im wrong, u r just not satisfied coz u din get a scholarship from the government. are u?

fake harmony? oh, is what happened in 13th may 1969 is what u call as harmony?


by digimunshu:
Well...why settle for mediocrity when you can have excellence?

how excellent is excellent to u?

[zAiTsEv]

hahahaha... my fren... being satisfied doesnt mean that there's no room for improvement. ENOUGH SAID.

If we're so easily satisfied with what we've now, we won't improve. Enough said.

[stevemc90]

hahahaha... my fren... being satisfied doesnt mean that there's no room for improvement. ENOUGH SAID.

If we're so easily satisfied with what we've now, we won't improve. Enough said.

what's the difference?

[zAiTsEv]

in conclusion, u just want to enjoy some privilege i see there. correct me if im wrong, u r just not satisfied coz u din get a scholarship from the government. are u?

fake harmony? oh, is what happened in 13th may 1969 is what u call as harmony?


by digimunshu:
Well...why settle for mediocrity when you can have excellence?

how excellent is excellent to u?

everyone deserves to enjoy the same privileges. not just gohweihan. did anyone say that 13th may 1969 is harmony? you just refuted a claim that wasn't made by anyone here.

[zAiTsEv]

If we're so easily satisfied with what we've now, we won't improve. Enough said.


hahahaha... my fren... being satisfied doesnt mean that there's no room for improvement. ENOUGH SAID.

What's your definition of improvement? Be complacent with what we have now?

[stevemc90]

in conclusion, u just want to enjoy some privilege i see there. correct me if im wrong, u r just not satisfied coz u din get a scholarship from the government. are u?

fake harmony? oh, is what happened in 13th may 1969 is what u call as harmony?


by digimunshu:
Well...why settle for mediocrity when you can have excellence?

how excellent is excellent to u?

everyone deserves to enjoy the same privileges. not just gohweihan. did anyone say that 13th may 1969 is harmony? you just refuted a claim that wasn't made by anyone here.


yes, every1 deserves it..... but did u read what i said previously? it's because something happened in the past that has not been reported in the book that made us to have what we have now.
dude...... are we not living in a peaceful country now? that's what i was trying to say... im just comparing it during emergency where malaysians were fighting with each other. you dont get my point do you?

[stevemc90]

If we're so easily satisfied with what we've now, we won't improve. Enough said.


hahahaha... my fren... being satisfied doesnt mean that there's no room for improvement. ENOUGH SAID.

What's your definition of improvement? Be complacent with what we have now?

what do u mean by 'improve'????

what dont u have now?

[zAiTsEv]

yes, every1 deserves it..... but did u read what i said previously? it's because something happened in the past that has not been reported in the book that made us to have what we have now.
dude...... are we not living in a peaceful country now? that's what i was trying to say... im just comparing it during emergency where malaysians were fighting with each other. you dont get my point do you?

That's why there is a need for change. Don't tell me we've to live with this forever just because of some past undoings. Peaceful? Yes, on the surface.

[zAiTsEv]

If we're so easily satisfied with what we've now, we won't improve. Enough said.


hahahaha... my fren... being satisfied doesnt mean that there's no room for improvement. ENOUGH SAID.

What's your definition of improvement? Be complacent with what we have now?

what do u mean by 'improve'????

what dont u have now?

It should be what don't we have now, unless you've already have everything you want. I don't think there's a need to remention this. It has been brought up again and again in this and other similar threads.

[stevemc90]

well, i know what i dont have but i wont complain like what u guys do. i mean, what's the point? it's already been done. unless your people outnumber them in the parliament to amend the constitution, what's the point of complaining?


you guys are not happy with that only thing after all. no?

[gohweihan]

well, i know what i dont have but i wont complain like what u guys do. i mean, what's the point? it's already been done. unless your people outnumber them in the parliament to amend the constitution, what's the point of complaining?


you guys are not happy with that only thing after all. no?

People like you are the ones that would lead Malaysia to stagnant growth. Refusal to help in changing the system - while saying it's no use, just shows nothing but running away from your responsibility to build this nation. This is your nation - you don't help change it, no one would.

in conclusion, u just want to enjoy some privilege i see there. correct me if im wrong, u r just not satisfied coz u din get a scholarship from the government. are u?

fake harmony? oh, is what happened in 13th may 1969 is what u call as harmony?

Wrong. Everyone deserves the same rights, as per the UNDHR 1948. And don't make my scholarship thing an issue. I've no problem with not getting that scholarship, but due to the nature of Malaysia, I'm fighting so the future gets the same opportunities at scholarships. If you don't want to contribute to this, stop attacking it. If you think that they are right, defend it with valid arguments.

As for harmony, there was never harmony in Malaysia. There was tolerance, thus faked harmony, but not true acceptance which brings about true harmony.

The directions set out in the first place was wrong. We are living the consequences.

[digimushu]

by digimushu:

Well...why settle for mediocrity when you can have excellence?

how excellent is excellent to u?


Excellence is a goal. Aspiring for it is never wrong. Think of it as "The final value theorem", where although we will never get there, for all practical intends and purposes, we will always be close enough.

[stevemc90]

well, i know what i dont have but i wont complain like what u guys do. i mean, what's the point? it's already been done. unless your people outnumber them in the parliament to amend the constitution, what's the point of complaining?


you guys are not happy with that only thing after all. no?

People like you are the ones that would lead Malaysia to stagnant growth. Refusal to help in changing the system - while saying it's no use, just shows nothing but running away from your responsibility to build this nation. This is your nation - you don't help change it, no one would.

in conclusion, u just want to enjoy some privilege i see there. correct me if im wrong, u r just not satisfied coz u din get a scholarship from the government. are u?

fake harmony? oh, is what happened in 13th may 1969 is what u call as harmony?

Wrong. Everyone deserves the same rights, as per the UNDHR 1948. And don't make my scholarship thing an issue. I've no problem with not getting that scholarship, but due to the nature of Malaysia, I'm fighting so the future gets the same opportunities at scholarships. If you don't want to contribute to this, stop attacking it. If you think that they are right, defend it with valid arguments.

As for harmony, there was never harmony in Malaysia. There was tolerance, thus faked harmony, but not true acceptance which brings about true harmony.

The directions set out in the first place was wrong. We are living the consequences.

you might be right. im sorry to say but u are just a typical chinese that i see everyday..... i know im offending lotsa ppl here but you really make me sick. what's the point of arguing man? coz what i see is that u r trying to defend ur own race. even though the non bumis arent getting any privileges from the gov but we have proven that we are the better ones. do u really need to whine about some small matter when you're already successful, yourself (in general). you can do your part when u are rich and famous...... you're concern is the number of non bumi getting scholarships from gov..... why not u set up a fund or something for the non bumi next time?

which country really follows what undhr says? mind u.... it's only a convention.... convention can be broken and becomes law. being autocratic is just another way of managing the country. does the united states of america really follow what the declaration say?

you tell me.

and you are just pissed because of the scholarship thing and u deny that.

[lolilo]

im sorry to say but u are just a typical chinese that i see everyday.....

err....what is a typical chinese?

[stevemc90]

im sorry to say but u are just a typical chinese that i see everyday.....

err....what is a typical chinese?


ask our friend there. he should know better.

[USSDefiantNX74205]

C'mon, stevemc90. Since you're the one who made that comment, you obviously know what a typical Chinese is. So why don't you explain it to us?

[masdie]

im sorry to say but u are just a typical chinese that i see everyday.....

err....what is a typical chinese?


ask our friend there. he should know better.

dude, i think you're a stucked-up, impolite, b1tchy bloke without respect for the others. you might know the constitution, you can boast and brag about that all you want. but i see that the others ie: gohweihan has got points that they believe in. they don't merely stick to the road. they take the road less taken. what do i believe in? i believe that human is THE living being while the law and constitution is just something we humans came up with. so i think it depends on how man interprete it.

i also believe that harmony exists in malaysia. at least i think i'm living in harmony. but that's when i'm still young. as we grow, we realise so many things. we begin to think and think. why? why does all these happens?

this thread is just a place for discussion just like a kopitiam. but i see hatred. i see anger. i see unsatisfaction. and i want to see changes so that all these doesn't continue.

[yeeyen]

[you might be right. im sorry to say but u are just a typical chinese that i see everyday..... i know im offending lotsa ppl here but you really make me sick. what's the point of arguing man? coz what i see is that u r trying to defend ur own race. even though the non bumis arent getting any privileges from the gov but we have proven that we are the better ones. do u really need to whine about some small matter when you're already successful, yourself (in general). you can do your part when u are rich and famous...... you're concern is the number of non bumi getting scholarships from gov..... why not u set up a fund or something for the non bumi next time?

OK, i'll be the first to say that i don't know gohweihan at all, and thus i can in no way vouch for his character. BUT from say, just THIS discussion, I think it's really ironic that YOU call him that.(Btw, I'm not sure of much about you too, so again, this is based on what i've read here)

If the typical Chinese Malaysian were like him, then perhaps there would be no need for this discussion at all, cause there would be enough support for the improvement of our country, yah? I think that the typical chinese(if there really is one) would be more, well, let's call it pragmatic. He wouldn't rock the boat for fear of the waves, you know what i mean? Kinda like you. But that's just what i think.

Haha, and just before you wonder whether this about me getting a scholarship, it isn't, though I'm no JPA scholar myself. I don't see why we should complain only because we've been mistreated. It's like not putting out a fire because your house is across the river. I can survive if the fire goes on, why should I help?

To me, the whole issue is about what I think my country has the potential to be, not about the elevation of my race. I belive I am thinking for the good of our country herself.
I think Malaysia has it in her to rise above all that has happened, put it behind her and be a truly harmonious country, if only people would try. But if we don't we'll just dig ourselves into a hole that one day we can't get out of. And the solution is not as simple as setting up a fund for non-bumi scholarships. If you really think about it, that would lead to even greater racial divide, wouldn't it?
Just like saying that we proven that we're better. Have we, btw? I don't know about that... Who are 'we', anyway?

Anyway, about the solution, well, perhaps comparison isn't the best idea. I mean, isn't it rather kiasu? haha, typically chinese, yah? In my opinion, we should set standards for ourselves, regardless of what other countries are doing, and not just look to being on par with USA (Why the USA, btw?) AND these aspirations that we vision, should be high. Why lower the bar so that we can reach it, if that changes nothing?

If you truly belive that Malaysia is perfect, and there's nothing we should change, than well, look out the window and that's your ideal malaysia. It isn't mine, not yet, but I can see it in my mind's eye. And I believe in it. Perhaps, my ideals aren't the same as yours. That's understandable. You'll fight for your inertia, as much i would fight for my change. Just please please (and i say this before you say it, so i'm sorry if i've jumped the gun) don't dismiss my fight as some kind of ungrateful, personal vendetta against the government. It's much more than that.

I know I sound like i'm taking personal affront to what you said to gohweihan, and perhaps i do, a little. I was also an ASEAN, so everything you say to him, well, it does hit. So, i'm sorry if you feel that I should have stayed out of it. Just wanted make it clear that even non-JPA scholars can love Malaysia, and that I feel even-non scholars have the right to voice their opinions on the country.

[masdie]

i'm wondering stevemc90, are you a scholar?

[stevemc90]

masdie,

did i not agree on malaysia is a peaceful n harmony country? and i dont think that u know what i said about the constitution (even if im boasting, whatcha gonna do? :twisted: )

yeeyen,

did u read what i've posted thoroughly?


i haven't even thought of you guys being ungrateful to the gov or whatever.


come on... you guys are just denying that u guys are fighting for your own people.


anyway, i never say anything bout i agreeing on the special privileges that some other race have. read man read.

goh wei han is complaining about article 153 of our constitution and some other fundamental liberties that he doesnt agree on (which i didnt deny the fact that what he said was true)

i didnt even say that msia's condition shouldnt be improved. did i?

i might sound uncivilized in my previous posts but it's just that i dont understand why do you guys need to make such a big fuss about other races having some special kind of treatment that you dont have.

about setting up fund etc... yeeyen, you are right. it wont solve anything. regarding to the scholarships given by the gov, i personally didnt get it but if we see, there are a lot of non bumis are getting it nowadays compared to the early 90s or 80s. am i not right? even though art 153 says that priority will be given for bumis in hiring civil servants, you will be amazed (yes you will) when you go to some important departments of any ministry, a lot of non bumis are holding the top posts (though not as much as the bumis)

dont you think that the reason for arguing that we, the non bumis, are not enjoying the special treatment is so unfounded?


masdie, im not a scholar. are you?

[lolilo]

come on... you guys are just denying that u guys are fighting for your own people.

i believe if we deserve to have something which is meant to be ours, its always worth fighting for, diplomatically.

sometimes you have to be adamant to acheive something. being complacent is not going to solve the problem.



i might sound uncivilized in my previous posts but it's just that i dont understand why do you guys need to make such a big fuss about other races having some special kind of treatment that you dont have.

regarding to the scholarships given by the gov, i personally didnt get it but if we see, there are a lot of non bumis are getting it nowadays compared to the early 90s or 80s. am i not right?




meritocracy is still not practice wholly, as far as i see it.

But yeah, it is indeed better than last time, but we can always work hard for an even better system right ? There's still so much room for improvements.

why settle for second-best when we can have the best for everyone ?

Transform it into a system where everyone will be satisfied with the outcome of it and make most of the people feel satisfied.

And the only way---meritrocracy. but it is still not the picture now. sigh.[/quote]

[bp_ffei]

even though art 153 says that priority will be given for bumis in hiring civil servants, you will be amazed (yes you will) when you go to some important departments of any ministry, a lot of non bumis are holding the top posts (though not as much as the bumis)


Um... so you mean as long as many non-Bumi's get high posts everything will be OK? Quality over quantity eh?

Ok ok... i get it. Everyone should just abide by whatever is in the constitution. We are all Malaysians that are equal and live harmoniously... just that some Malaysians are more equal than others...

Of course I'm thankful and grateful to my country. But I also want to make it into a better place for all. Yes... I want equality and meritocracy...

[gohweihan]

even if im boasting, whatcha gonna do?

You're an ass, that's all it proves.

i haven't even thought of you guys being ungrateful to the gov or whatever.

By hammering me, without concrete substantive, you're trying to shift the bad person image to me.


goh wei han is complaining about article 153 of our constitution and some other fundamental liberties that he doesnt agree on (which i didnt deny the fact that what he said was true)

i didnt even say that msia's condition shouldnt be improved. did i?

So what is your contention? You contend with plenty of things, yet say nothing. You say people should not hammer the constitution, but you agree that it by itself is wrong in terms of ethics. So I would just conclude for now that you're a person with no stand, or one which is contented with what we have, and is indeed the typical Barisan puppet which they always wanted. Prove me wrong, and I mean with substantive.

i might sound uncivilized in my previous posts but it's just that i dont understand why do you guys need to make such a big fuss about other races having some special kind of treatment that you dont have.

If it's wrong, why not? Not everyone is like you. We do not yield when wronged. If you can attack me for wronging you, why not attack the government? Why the duality? You didn't specify.

about setting up fund etc... yeeyen, you are right. it wont solve anything. regarding to the scholarships given by the gov, i personally didnt get it but if we see, there are a lot of non bumis are getting it nowadays compared to the early 90s or 80s. am i not right? even though art 153 says that priority will be given for bumis in hiring civil servants, you will be amazed (yes you will) when you go to some important departments of any ministry, a lot of non bumis are holding the top posts (though not as much as the bumis)

This is the stupidest thing coming from you so far. To say that just because we have some people up there, you say that we should be satisfied. Prove why is this so, and why should we be satisfied when there is opportunity for a level playing field, which is a greater good by itself?

dont you think that the reason for arguing that we, the non bumis, are not enjoying the special treatment is so unfounded?

Prove this statement.

To sum it all up, we have stevemc90, who thinks he's an expert, coming up here to tell us what should we do in this situation, without offering proof, or concrete substantive of why should we do so. Even if he had done so, he had failed because all that have been proven to be false.

stevemc90, you may know the constitution, but I debate for one of the best debating universities in the Asia. Think I'm giving in so easy? Think again.

[__earth]

please observe forum ethics. stop all personal attacks.

it sucks when mods have to be dictators.

[stevemc90]

i debate for one of the best debate teams in asia.... oh, im so great. oh, im a chinese. oh, i should fight for my people... oh, yyeah... im so great... oh, im so great... yeah im great... oh... im that darn great... oh im so great. im so great yeah baby im great... you wanna have a piece of me? yeah come on baby.. im good no no im great im great im great......

yeah..... keep on whining. that's what u do best.

[stevemc90]

even if im boasting, whatcha gonna do?

You're an ass, that's all it proves.

i haven't even thought of you guys being ungrateful to the gov or whatever.

By hammering me, without concrete substantive, you're trying to shift the bad person image to me.


goh wei han is complaining about article 153 of our constitution and some other fundamental liberties that he doesnt agree on (which i didnt deny the fact that what he said was true)

i didnt even say that msia's condition shouldnt be improved. did i?

So what is your contention? You contend with plenty of things, yet say nothing. You say people should not hammer the constitution, but you agree that it by itself is wrong in terms of ethics. So I would just conclude for now that you're a person with no stand, or one which is contented with what we have, and is indeed the typical Barisan puppet which they always wanted. Prove me wrong, and I mean with substantive.

i might sound uncivilized in my previous posts but it's just that i dont understand why do you guys need to make such a big fuss about other races having some special kind of treatment that you dont have.

If it's wrong, why not? Not everyone is like you. We do not yield when wronged. If you can attack me for wronging you, why not attack the government? Why the duality? You didn't specify.

about setting up fund etc... yeeyen, you are right. it wont solve anything. regarding to the scholarships given by the gov, i personally didnt get it but if we see, there are a lot of non bumis are getting it nowadays compared to the early 90s or 80s. am i not right? even though art 153 says that priority will be given for bumis in hiring civil servants, you will be amazed (yes you will) when you go to some important departments of any ministry, a lot of non bumis are holding the top posts (though not as much as the bumis)

This is the stupidest thing coming from you so far. To say that just because we have some people up there, you say that we should be satisfied. Prove why is this so, and why should we be satisfied when there is opportunity for a level playing field, which is a greater good by itself?

dont you think that the reason for arguing that we, the non bumis, are not enjoying the special treatment is so unfounded?

Prove this statement.

To sum it all up, we have stevemc90, who thinks he's an expert, coming up here to tell us what should we do in this situation, without offering proof, or concrete substantive of why should we do so. Even if he had done so, he had failed because all that have been proven to be false.

stevemc90, you may know the constitution, but I debate for one of the best debating universities in the Asia. Think I'm giving in so easy? Think again.


i didnt disagree on the fundamental liberties part you, my chinese brother. and i neither agree nor disagree with what u say bout art 153. read dude read. arent you from one of the best unis in asia?

debater? please... get a life

[USSDefiantNX74205]

i debate for one of the best debate teams in asia.... oh, im so great. oh, im a chinese. oh, i should fight for my people... oh, yyeah... im so great... oh, im so great... yeah im great... oh... im that darn great... oh im so great. im so great yeah baby im great... you wanna have a piece of me? yeah come on baby.. im good no no im great im great im great......

yeah..... keep on whining. that's what u do best.

Whining? Dude, isn't that what you're doing? And I don't understand with this obsession you have about the Chinese. Open your eyes and you will see that there are other races that actually support the abolishment of special rights, Malays included.

[lolilo]

8O

err...huh?

[masdie]

sigh...this thread used to be an interesting one discussing a very important world issue: discrimination. and day by day, it strayed out of course into a place for people to hate each other. why can't we continue discussing? shake yourself people!

erm...why don't we relax. stop discussing about malaysia for a while. let's discuss about russia. ok?

i still remember reading a newspaper article about foreign students being bashed up by russian skin heads. it seems that they're proud of being 'white' and they look down on 'coloured' people. not only in russia i think, the us used to have the kkk right? but this friend told me that the hate sentiment in russia is quite strong even now. the russian government doesn't want to ackowledge this problem and so they're not doing anything to eradicate this problem. besides, i read somewhere saying the skinhead group there recruits underages (<18 i think) to bash up foreigners. according to the russian law, underages will NOT be charged for any offence. so no one will be hold responsible for the beatings(and maybe killings).

foreigners in russia fear the celebration during hitler's birthday anniversary. the skinheads honour hitler by beating or killing foreigners, non-whites, jews etc. even universities gave holidays to foreign students to avoid incidents. i don't think any malaysians die from skinhead attacks up till now. but there're a few who'd been whacked. the number of malaysians are growing very rapidly in russia, the risk increases.

many people say it's the same everywhere. there're discrimination everywhere. yes, i agree there're discrimination everywhere but i don't agree that it's the same everywhere. there're places where the condition is worse. like in malaysia for example, we don't LIKE indonesians or bangladeshis. but in some places, they HATE foreigners. and they HATE them so much they want to kill them.

any thoughts?

[stevemc90]

i have to agree with u masdie...... :)

[bp_ffei]

like in malaysia for example, we don't LIKE indonesians or bangladeshis.

Really ar? Oh... maybe i'm the odd one out...

[pringles]

Moderator, please do your job by kicking out those members who label others as ass (personal attack) or at least give warning or suspended them. All recom members, we are all human and it is impossible to have everyone else to have the sam exact opinion as you. There may be some who have entirely opposite view from you.

If you do not agree, state reasonable reason to counter other's viewpoint and not calling other as ass or the stupidiest person and any other form of malicious peronal attack. Go and read the forum guildline.

If you wish to continue to conduct personal attack, please leave recom and set up your own site where members can compete for the King of Personal Attack.

Thanks.

[masdie]

like in malaysia for example, we don't LIKE indonesians or bangladeshis.

Really ar? Oh... maybe i'm the odd one out...

i'm just stating an example. there're people who don't like these people. i know of people who're sick of them flocking to m'sia for jobs and bringing along with them diseases and also commiting crimes. i'm not saying that all malaysians don't like them. only a handful.

[Patrick]

Well, not all Indonesians are bad people. Although they look burly, most of them are actually OK people.

One day, when I was riding a bus to jaya jusco, an indonesian man sat beside me. He started a conversation....we talked...

hari sabtu semua orang keluar, kan? duduk rumah tak ada benda buat..kamu masih belajar ke?....kamu kerja apa? saya buat welding...kamu dari bahagian mana? sumatera? jawa?

at lease HE started the conversation..I was too scared to do that.

Now i know there are nice indonesians out there.

[gohweihan]

Moderator, please do your job by kicking out those members who label others as ass (personal attack) or at least give warning or suspended them. All recom members, we are all human and it is impossible to have everyone else to have the sam exact opinion as you. There may be some who have entirely opposite view from you.

If you do not agree, state reasonable reason to counter other's viewpoint and not calling other as ass or the stupidiest person and any other form of malicious peronal attack. Go and read the forum guildline.

Firstly, if you read the statement carefully, you would have noticed that it links into one thing - If you boast, you're proving that you're an ass. It's just that simple. So the onus lies on the person who is, or is not boasting. If he is, then he's an ass, if he's not, then it's not. Personal attack? No. If it's a personal attack, it would have been he's an ass whether or not he boasted.

The concept here is simple. You try to project superiority by just boasting, then the general perception is you're an ass (or something similar to that). Perhaps it's not put in a nice manner, but that's how it is, unless you can prove that boasting is right.

As for the stupidest person issue, there had been no such thing happening. Yes, I've called an idea (read idea, and not person) stupid, but that is after I've comprehensively shown why it is so.

I agree that everyone have different opinions, and that's why we have debates and discussions. I've given plenty of substantive to stubstantiate my opinions, which is what you've called for. If you think that's not enough, ask for clarification. I'll gladly give them to you.

If you wish to continue to conduct personal attack, please leave recom and set up your own site where members can compete for the King of Personal Attack.

Thanks.

Thank you for the advice, unfortunately, read the lines above.

[masdie]

at lease HE started the conversation..I was too scared to do that.

you're scared of him? are you implying that you're scared at indonesians as a whole, as in seeing an indonesian and say hey, he's scary man. and we have indonesion maids tending to our children. hmph

[__earth]

Firstly, if you read the statement carefully, you would have noticed that it links into one thing - If you boast, you're proving that you're an ass. It's just that simple. So the onus lies on the person who is, or is not boasting. If he is, then he's an ass, if he's not, then it's not. Personal attack? No. If it's a personal attack, it would have been he's an ass whether or not he boasted.

being a debater, you should realize that "If you boast, you're proving that you're an ass" flawed logically. You need to prove that there is a connection between boasting and an ass. Furthermore, its a statement you made it at your wimp.

http://www.adamsmith.org/logicalfallacies/000633.php

You however is making a personal attack. Stop doing that. As a debater who is debating for "one of the best teams in Asia", you are the one that should observe it first, instead of breaking it.

[iQing]

Moderator, please do your job by kicking out those members who label others as ass (personal attack) or at least give warning or suspended them. All recom members, we are all human and it is impossible to have everyone else to have the sam exact opinion as you. There may be some who have entirely opposite view from you.

If you do not agree, state reasonable reason to counter other's viewpoint and not calling other as ass or the stupidiest person and any other form of malicious peronal attack. Go and read the forum guildline.

If you wish to continue to conduct personal attack, please leave recom and set up your own site where members can compete for the King of Personal Attack.

Thanks.



that is a forlorn hope since mods also flame on forum.

[gohweihan]

please observe forum ethics. stop all personal attacks.

it sucks when mods have to be dictators.

On the surface, it may be one, but ultimately it's not. And I've proven why it isn't based on the arguments above.

[__earth]

please observe forum ethics. stop all personal attacks.

it sucks when mods have to be dictators.

On the surface, it may be one, but ultimately it's not. And I've proven why it isn't based on the arguments above.

read my posts earlier after you said its not.

And even if your statement was true, you said

stevemc90, you may know the constitution, but I debate for one of the best debating universities in the Asia. Think I'm giving in so easy? Think again.

If that is not boasting, I don't know what is. I let you draw your own implication from your own statement.

Stop all personal attacks now.

[gohweihan]

Stop all personal attacks now.

To take literal meanings for everything, I don't know what else to say.

My idea of that statement is not a personal attack. Yes, it may sound like one, but I've stated why it is not, and also I don't expect people to take the meaning of ass equals to the real animal. What I meant was ass equals to a person who is so stuck up that he doesn't want to admit flaws, while struggling to uphold himself without valid arguments. At times, you don't need to take the real meaning for everything. If people can take the word tube to mean the train in the UK, then I don't see why this doesn't connect.

My tolerance for personal attacks may be high, thus such statements (because when I was making it, it doesn't seem to me like it could be intepreted as one). I hope you can understand that. Every person have different levels of tolerance, which is ambiguous in nature.

As for the statement about me and my debating squad, it's a statement. And it's intention is to tell stevemc90 that I do not yield easily unless proven wrong in something I believe strongly, and is fighting for, although I agree that it does sound like a boast (especially the first part).

[gohweihan]

After Pakistan and the likes, I've got a lot to say now that I'm back from a tournament. So let's begin.

hahahaha... my fren... being satisfied doesnt mean that there's no room for improvement. ENOUGH SAID.

Being satisfied creates a situation of complacency where the incentive to grow, whether or not there there is room, is reduced.

in conclusion, u just want to enjoy some privilege i see there. correct me if im wrong, u r just not satisfied coz u din get a scholarship from the government. are u?

fake harmony? oh, is what happened in 13th may 1969 is what u call as harmony?

Already addressed this.

by digimunshu:
Well...why settle for mediocrity when you can have excellence?

how excellent is excellent to u?

Excellence is unattainable, but we should always strive to achieve it, or at least, work our way closer to it by the day. To be satisfied is to not want to strive to achieve excellence.

yes, every1 deserves it..... but did u read what i said previously? it's because something happened in the past that has not been reported in the book that made us to have what we have now.
dude...... are we not living in a peaceful country now? that's what i was trying to say... im just comparing it during emergency where malaysians were fighting with each other. you dont get my point do you?

Firstly, what is it actually that has not been reported? You had not told us anything to prove your claims.

Unfortunately, what has been reported is that Malaysia, after 1969, ammended it's constitution such that certain groups of people get more rights just because of being who they are.

The concept of peace is relative. Absolute peace is yet unattainable due to the nature of humanity. Comparing our nation now and during the emergency is just like comparing Malaysia now and Sudan. We cannot go on comparing with the worst. We have to compare ourselves with the better so that we can work towards it. People like me don't compare Malaysia now to the one in 1969, but to ideas such as undiscrimiated acceptance and equal rights for all.

what do u mean by 'improve'????

what dont u have now?

Improve is to make better what we have now.

What we don't have now are basically true acceptance and equal rights.

well, i know what i dont have but i wont complain like what u guys do. i mean, what's the point? it's already been done. unless your people outnumber them in the parliament to amend the constitution, what's the point of complaining?


you guys are not happy with that only thing after all. no?

First, you contradicted youself by making two of these statements. If on one end you ask what we don't have right now, and on the other hand acknowledges that there are things we don't have now, I seriously doubt your integrity in this issue.

As for complaining, if you think I'm just complaining, think again. If I complain, I would just say Malaysia is unfair, or the likes. But what I'm doing right now is analyzing the situation, looking it in every aspect, picking out the things that need to be corrected, and proposing a counter model which would solve this problem. The whole framework may not be visible here, but they are in other threads in ReCom.

As for that one thing, it's just one of the things I'm unhappy with, thus the need for change. And I've given so many reasons into why it should be changed. Even on a principle level, it should be, as discrimination is never good when it comes in this situation.

you might be right. im sorry to say but u are just a typical chinese that i see everyday.....

Firstly, I am a Malaysian. The government states that I must have a race in my birth certificate, thus it's Chinese.

Secondly, prove to us what a typical Chinese is, and don't cleverly try to shift that burden to me, because it won't work.

And unless you have proof that I'm a typical Chinese (which you need to prove as well what is indeed a typical Chinese), do retract this statement.

i know im offending lotsa ppl here but you really make me sick.

That's just too bad.

what's the point of arguing man?

Because something is wrong, and it needs correction.

coz what i see is that u r trying to defend ur own race.

I'm not defending my own race, I'm advocating equal rights for all. If I'm defending my own rights, this would be a Chinese should get priviledges kind of discussion, and not one where I say everyone, regardless of race, should get equal opportunity.

even though the non bumis arent getting any privileges from the gov but we have proven that we are the better ones.

To prove that we are better, yet being discriminated, is something odd coming from you. Are you trying to say that we should live on the small, shallow notion that we are better than them?

do u really need to whine about some small matter when you're already successful, yourself (in general).

Yes, because I cannot bear to tell my children that Malaysia discriminates you because you're not of a certain race.

Yes, because we have the moral high ground.

And yes, because it's not small an issue. These discrimination affect a third or more of the population.

you can do your part when u are rich and famous......

The idea here is this - I don't want to have the idea of being rich and then go back and lay supremacy on the government. I want to change the situation the way a normal person would. And not all of these people are rich.

you're concern is the number of non bumi getting scholarships from gov..... why not u set up a fund or something for the non bumi next time?

Wrong. My concern is not only towards scholarship, but distribution of rights and benefits in this nation. In economical analysis, the non-bumiputeras do indeed get a better share of the pie. Yet when it comes to government benefits, it is strongly skewed towards the bumiputeras. The idea is that everyone should deserve equal rights and benefits as again, per the UNDHR 1948.

which country really follows what undhr says? mind u.... it's only a convention.... convention can be broken and becomes law. being autocratic is just another way of managing the country. does the united states of america really follow what the declaration say?

The idea is simple - whether we should. And I say yes. Malaysia should conform with the UNDHR 1948 because it is the right thing to do in a principal and ethical point of view.

Being autocratic is one way to run a country - but is it the right way?

Your burden now is to prove that this discrimination is right, and exceeds the need for equality and moral high ground.



and you are just pissed because of the scholarship thing and u deny that.

Don't assert what you don't know. You didn't even provide analysis on why you think so, thus I'm dismissing this as fallacy.

masdie,

did i not agree on malaysia is a peaceful n harmony country? and i dont think that u know what i said about the constitution (even if im boasting, whatcha gonna do? :twisted: )

Addressed this one before.

come on... you guys are just denying that u guys are fighting for your own people.

Already addressed this one, but I'm stating it again - those who are with me, fight for Malaysia and Malaysians without distinction of race.

anyway, i never say anything bout i agreeing on the special privileges that some other race have. read man read.

You did not agree, or neither did you disagree. But you asked us to shut up and stop talking about this. Tell us why you say so, and give substantiation to that. Prove to us that we should shut up.

goh wei han is complaining about article 153 of our constitution and some other fundamental liberties that he doesnt agree on (which i didnt deny the fact that what he said was true)

You agree that the constitution is ethically and morally wrong, but what are you advocating over my idea? Basically, from what I can see, your proposal is for us to sit back and live life while the risks are still there, and the rights of a third of the number of Malaysians are still less than the other two-thirds.

i didnt even say that msia's condition shouldnt be improved. did i?

When you said we should be satisfied, it implies that because as I stated earlier, satisfaction leads to the decrease in incentive to improve.

i might sound uncivilized in my previous posts but it's just that i dont understand why do you guys need to make such a big fuss about other races having some special kind of treatment that you dont have.

It is your burden to tell us why we shouldn't, because ultimately, once again, it is principally right that these benefits go.

about setting up fund etc... yeeyen, you are right. it wont solve anything. regarding to the scholarships given by the gov, i personally didnt get it but if we see, there are a lot of non bumis are getting it nowadays compared to the early 90s or 80s. am i not right?

Once again, just because the trend is that more and more people are getting it, we should be satisfied. The idea is this - as long as there's something in place which can reverse this trend in a matter of one year, this struggle must continue. The idea is this - everyone should not be in fear that one day, the government could take away more of their rights.

Like I've said it, and I say it again, prove to us here why we should forgo a chance to achieve greater good (by having a level playing field), instead of one where we rely on the government's discretion on how many to give to non-bumiputeras.

even though art 153 says that priority will be given for bumis in hiring civil servants, you will be amazed (yes you will) when you go to some important departments of any ministry, a lot of non bumis are holding the top posts (though not as much as the bumis)

Saying it once more, this statement makes no sense in stopping the battle for equality and is therefore null and redundant.

dont you think that the reason for arguing that we, the non bumis, are not enjoying the special treatment is so unfounded?

Until now, you still have not proven why you say this, because ultimately, we are achieving greater good, and this is an ethically and principally right way to go.

goh wei han is complaining about article 153 of our constitution and some other fundamental liberties that he doesnt agree on (which i didnt deny the fact that what he said was true)

i didnt even say that msia's condition shouldnt be improved. did i?

...

i didnt disagree on the fundamental liberties part you, my chinese brother. and i neither agree nor disagree with what u say bout art 153. read dude read. arent you from one of the best unis in asia?

No one is saying that you disagree with the fundamental liberties part. But firstly, you say that you won't deny the fact that what I said about Article 153 is true, which supports the previous statement. Then, you say you're not agreeing or disagreeing with what I said about Article 153. So, for countless times, and even now, I'm asking you again - what is your stand in this issue. If you have a stand, say it out. If not, then stop attacking those who have an issue with it. If you think that what we say is wrong, prove to us, and tell us why should we stop saying that. Just saying that we should be satisfied, and the likes, is not good enough to convince us.

Please don't assert things to make yourself look good when you cannot prove your burden.

debater? please... get a life

Maybe I should. But wait, I do have a life. Do I need to reconsider that? Don't think so. It's my rights anyway to live how I want to, as long as it is ethically and morally right.

[windy_city]

All discussions become useless when anger, authority and personal attacks are thrown in. (Then again, different people interpret this differently.)

But _earth, what can you do, nowadays, people just like to state their authority when they comment on some issues. This make them feel important, and they think this will show that their arguments are more superior than others. (Although they will deny it anyway)

[masdie]

i don't know but from how i see it, it looks like this:

-at first it started out as a healthy discussion board.
-then some conflicts chipped in.
-2 members started to throw their piece of mind at each other.
-an anchor tried to offer his/her other piece of mind.
-currently: commercial break, waiting for the next episode.

i think the war will continue. and i think the anchor will be directly involved in it.

man it's so hot in here!

ps: how the plot evolved -> at first, A is considered good while B evil. however, due to a twist, A looks like a bad guy. but we always hear the saying: don't judge a book by its cover. hmmm...so who's actually the bad guy here. can't wait for the finale. but i hope this story has an ending. i hate stories cut short due to technical mistakes or suppression from above. some may see that i'm fanning the situation but seriously i feel this thread is getting more and more interesting.

[masdie]

Yes, because I cannot bear to tell my children that Malaysia discriminates you because you're not of a certain race.

hoho, this is a hard one.

[gohweihan]

ps: how the plot evolved -> at first, A is considered good while B evil. however, due to a twist, A looks like a bad guy. but we always hear the saying: don't judge a book by its cover. hmmm...so who's actually the bad guy here. can't wait for the finale. but i hope this story has an ending. i hate stories cut short due to technical mistakes or suppression from above. some may see that i'm fanning the situation but seriously i feel this thread is getting more and more interesting.

Man, thanks for the refreshing humour. Really needed them. :D

[lolilo]

Yes, because I cannot bear to tell my children that Malaysia discriminates you because you're not of a certain race.

hoho, this is a hard one.

waa...my mom is telling me this every now and then.....and this hurts..... hurts sampai tahap numb ady....waa..

[stevemc90]

mr goh,

i think that u have serious issues to be settled. those that u recently quoted already have been answered by you, your goodself, many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many times. (yeah, this is how irritating it is)

so, y bother quoting again?

and your definition of an ass? oh... dude.. get a life again will ya?
did i not admit the flaws? did i admit the flaws? did i or did i not? did i? did i not? confused debater?

the part where i boasted? it's just to tell you that art 153 was being made as one of the laws is because of the chinese themselves (and this has been put off record in the history books)

anyway, im done with you.

[stevemc90]

All discussions become useless when anger, authority and personal attacks are thrown in. (Then again, different people interpret this differently.)

But _earth, what can you do, nowadays, people just like to state their authority when they comment on some issues. This make them feel important, and they think this will show that their arguments are more superior than others. (Although they will deny it anyway)


i have to say this, i agree with you.

[gohweihan]

mr goh,

i think that u have serious issues to be settled. those that u recently quoted already have been answered by you, your goodself, many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many many times. (yeah, this is how irritating it is)

so, y bother quoting again?

and your definition of an ass? oh... dude.. get a life again will ya?
...

the part where i boasted? it's just to tell you that art 153 was being made as one of the laws is because of the chinese themselves (and this has been put off record in the history books)

anyway, im done with you.

If you don't want to address the issues I posted, don't run away from it and say I quoted it many many times. I did so because you proposed no resolution whatsoever to the questions. You merely did away by shifting things, and attempt to twist statements around to make it as though you're the good guy.

So I put it to you. Answer the questions with substantive, or shut up. You're done with me, so am I with you.

Ultimately, what we can conclude here is that you proposed that we do not question the constitution, but things are not very right. However, you still have not justified why should we not go against this - since I've given many reasons why we should go against it.

You're just running a futile attempt to make me look like I'm confused. These series of questions below summarises what you virtually did for the whole discussion. But that's just too bad, you may confuse others, not me.

And part of my life is spent trying to bring about a better Malaysia, so my life is partially about all this, and more. I welcome criticism, but only those which are backed by concrete reasoning, analysis, and proof.

did i not admit the flaws? did i admit the flaws? did i or did i not? did i? did i not? confused debater?

Stupid series of questions to make you feel superior. If I answer this, I'm no better than a kid who is immature. If I don't, you may use it to put me to shame. Nice way of fighting, isn't it - the slick trapping tactic.

And it's quite ironic, considering this statement:

All discussions become useless when anger, authority and personal attacks are thrown in. (Then again, different people interpret this differently.)

But _earth, what can you do, nowadays, people just like to state their authority when they comment on some issues. This make them feel important, and they think this will show that their arguments are more superior than others. (Although they will deny it anyway)


i have to say this, i agree with you.

[USSDefiantNX74205]

Finally... :roll:

[stevemc90]

All discussions become useless when anger, authority and personal attacks are thrown in. (Then again, different people interpret this differently.)

But _earth, what can you do, nowadays, people just like to state their authority when they comment on some issues. This make them feel important, and they think this will show that their arguments are more superior than others. (Although they will deny it anyway)


i have to say this, i agree with you.

dear mr goh,

you are sick. maybe you studied too much? i agree with what windy city said is because that you're being so emotional while im not. you're just kiasu. afraid of losing. your pride is that high huh? it's good to have a fighter like you. to die in a battlefield without even considering how difficult the situation is. just like a suicide bomber.

[zAiTsEv]

All discussions become useless when anger, authority and personal attacks are thrown in. (Then again, different people interpret this differently.)

But _earth, what can you do, nowadays, people just like to state their authority when they comment on some issues. This make them feel important, and they think this will show that their arguments are more superior than others. (Although they will deny it anyway)


i have to say this, i agree with you.

dear mr goh,

you are sick. maybe you studied too much? i agree with what windy city said is because that you're being so emotional while im not. you're just kiasu. afraid of losing. your pride is that high huh? it's good to have a fighter like you. to die in a battlefield without even considering how difficult the situation is. just like a suicide bomber.

What I understand from windy_city's post is that he's not merely referring to gohweihan alone. By the way, I thought both of you are already done with each other. :?:

[gohweihan]

Oh dear. For once, I thought I was talking to a person who at least could defend his views.

Now I feel like an idiot for talking to one who could not defend his, and resort to all this just to protect himself.

All I've asked for is clarification, and now I'm being framed for what I am not - emotional, angry, sick, etc. For heaven's sake, no one would know that I may even be smiling when I'm typing all this, so what's up about those assertions.

stevemc90, if all you want to is just to win, go ahead. I'm giving up. To ask for clarification and all I get is a bunch of directed attacks at who I am, and what I do, instead of the real issue, I feel that it's quite pointless that I go on asking. Ultimately, you'll give me none, and instead of quarelling with you about this, I might as well just go on with what I am doing for the nation. No point telling you what I'm doing - you'll just say it's pointless to question Article 153, and the likes, because to you, it's been done (which is the only reason I've got so far, that I couldn't possibly buy).

[stevemc90]

ziatzev,

i agreed with windy city is not only about goh, i, myself thinks that im wring in a way too. u r reading it in a literal way... too literal

[stevemc90]

Oh dear. For once, I thought I was talking to a person who at least could defend his views.

Now I feel like an idiot for talking to one who could not defend his, and resort to all this just to protect himself.

All I've asked for is clarification. What have I done to deserve all this?

besides questioning, i think that i've explained my stand. didnt i? read man read. i thought i did anyway.

[gohweihan]

If you did, I wouldn't have questioned that repeatedly. If you think that you've done it, no - you haven't explained it. So either you explain it, or don't, and stop using these twisted attacks to make you look good.

And as for emotional, you better start reviewing yourself in that process. See who is really the emotional one.

Enough said, I'm drawing the line here. Focus on the topic at hand, or shut up if you don't have anything better to say but stupid stuff like emotional, angry, etc.

[stevemc90]

my god. what's ur problem man? gee...... i think you should be the one who shut the hell up.


ok ok...... you're the greatest debater in the world. even andy from the apprentice a graduate from harvard business school will lose to you...

i think by this recognition, you're be happy with what you've wanted after all these years of hard work to put yourself in a debate team. oh, no..... it's the recom site debate team.

by the way, i think u are the one that's been emotional. no?

ok, you win again.

and i dont think that i've potrayed myself as the good one here. you're the one who've been potrayed as bad. im bad but not as bad as you are. you're worse.

how did you manage to be in your debate team anyway? at one time, you might be arguing your points.... at the other, you'll be shouting at the other team....

and thank you for making my postings become more...

[ElansarGelmir]

We didn't start the fire
It was always burning
Since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No we didn't light it
But we tried to fight it

[iQing]

The fire is never put out properly. shame! shame! shame!

[gohweihan]

Wow... 8O

Back to topics on discrimination, people. Before more people start losing their cool.

[youngyew]

Stop all personal attacks now.

To take literal meanings for everything, I don't know what else to say.

My idea of that statement is not a personal attack. Yes, it may sound like one, but I've stated why it is not, and also I don't expect people to take the meaning of ass equals to the real animal. What I meant was ass equals to a person who is so stuck up that he doesn't want to admit flaws, while struggling to uphold himself without valid arguments. At times, you don't need to take the real meaning for everything. If people can take the word tube to mean the train in the UK, then I don't see why this doesn't connect.

My tolerance for personal attacks may be high, thus such statements (because when I was making it, it doesn't seem to me like it could be intepreted as one). I hope you can understand that. Every person have different levels of tolerance, which is ambiguous in nature.

As for the statement about me and my debating squad, it's a statement. And it's intention is to tell stevemc90 that I do not yield easily unless proven wrong in something I believe strongly, and is fighting for, although I agree that it does sound like a boast (especially the first part).
Will be taking a hiatus due to my coming exam, so sorry I will just leave this final message and you won't get another message or reply until 10 June.

In my opinion, yes, we have our own views and we should also respect other's views regarding everything, be it opinions in an issue or ideas about the tolerance of a "personal attack".

However, with the mutual respects of other people's opinions, common sense and respect of other's feelings should come along too. For once, would you commit a theft and claim that it isn't a crime in your opinion? You will still be punished or fined by the court anyway, regardless of your claim that "I have my freedom and liberty to think that theft is not a crime".

Similarly, when it is claimed that "I don't expect people to take the meaning of ass equals to the real animal", are you really saying what you really meant to say or just defending for defense's sake? When a word "ass" is thrown in a forum without explaining that it actually doesn't carry the implication of a personal attack (which I personally doubt), please note that most, if not all people would and do take it as a personal attack. When that happens, it's already an offense and although you may think that it's not a personal attack, the harm is already done and you are responsible for it. ReCom is like a community, and to live in a community you not only live by your personal views and tolerance, but you agree with your responsibility to reconcile with the feeling of the other members of the community. At the end of the day, you may still subscribe to the opinion that "ass" is not a personal attack, but you should also acknowledge that it's a personal attack in the view of the public, and avoid doing so to invoke hatred and traumatize feeling.

ReCom and the rest of the democratic world are striving to achieve the ideal of freedom of speach, but to take the freedom in the context of utmost individualistic right to the extent of neglecting the community's feeling and reaction, is inappropriate and inconsiderate.

[youngyew]

To anyone who becomes fired up in the forum: When you become overwhelmed with emotion, anger or hatred, you would easily stray to the dark side of the force. :twisted:

[gohweihan]

youngyew, I have to agree with you about what you posted about responsibility over what's posted. I have taken full responsibility over what I posted, and it's not as though I'm trying to deny that I've said certain things. It's just that the statement you quoted is a justification for _earth's statement that I have to prove certain things, which leads to that explanation. It's not that I'm running away or defending or such. It's just clarification, and I well know that I am responsible over what I say.

The point is, when _earth ask me to justify the links within my initial statement, I have assumed that it is in any reasonable person not to take literal meanings as such (even more so with that word). It is not meant as defence against making personal attacks - they are downright wrong. I have not said that my statement is does not deserve to be downright said not to be a personal attack. It's just my opinion. Those with differing opinions are always welcomed to show otherwise, like what you did - which I welcome as constructive, because ultimately what you said is true - that different people have different ideas, and usually it's the ideas of the majority that matters, unless they are wrong in the first place.

If ReCom thinks that the words should be censored, go ahead. I won't mind anyway - my ideas had been pushed to the middle of the table.

[Schye]

Well, similiar topic is getting hot in Jeffoii's blog too starting with the email below.

http://www.jeffooi.com/archives/2005/05/brain_drain_and.php

[blurness]

Quite an interesting article.And people wonder why the best never come home.
Lack of patriotism?Not even close.

[masdie]

we all know that discrimination is a world-wide problem, from the african apartheid to the american KKK. i don't know how severe the problem is in malaysia compared to other countries. but i really want to know if other countries are doing anything about it. what are the american government doing to avoid disputes between the whites and the blacks? maybe we can learn from them?

[Schye]

we all know that discrimination is a world-wide problem, from the african apartheid to the american KKK. i don't know how severe the problem is in malaysia compared to other countries. but i really want to know if other countries are doing anything about it. what are the american government doing to avoid disputes between the whites and the blacks? maybe we can learn from them?

I thought we were one of the countries who condemned and criticized South Africa the most ... hmm... I know its not suitable to compare the two countries but they are similiar partly.

[yeeyen]

we all know that discrimination is a world-wide problem, from the african apartheid to the american KKK. i don't know how severe the problem is in malaysia compared to other countries. but i really want to know if other countries are doing anything about it. what are the american government doing to avoid disputes between the whites and the blacks? maybe we can learn from them?


Hmmm, the americans? Well, there was affirmative action in the 60s and 70s. They would implement quotas by race in the public sector and certain government related companies, i think. Not unlike Malaysia in certain senses. On one hand it worked, and the blacks progressed and on the other hand, it brought about cries of reverse discrimination. Also, there came the complaints that it just helped the rich get richer. I think the country is being weaned of the policies now, though, but i'm not too sure of the exact facts.

Btw, does anyone feel that the Corby case, in a way, is a show of discrimination? I mean, many australians seem to be saying that we agree with you only if you take our stand. Your decisions aren't good enough for us. Kinda far-fetched, I know, but i must say it was the first thing that came to mind for me. I'm naturally suspicious. haha...

[budakkerek]

ppl,
pls adhere to guidelines. no personal attacks pls.
if this gets out of hand, thread will b locked.

thanks.

[coolstudy]

I think our national leaders have no moral right to call for national unity and integration so long as Barisan Nasional remains a coalition of mainly racially based parties. This charade has been going on since Independence under the Alliance. Either do away with such parties or just live and let live. Any call for unity is just being hypocritical.

The prime minister has said that Umno must gain political strength. Already in full control of the country, Umno is still not satisfied. The prime minister, no less, has been harping on Umno's strength and the need to maintain its political hold.

If this is the case, why do we need the national service programme just to inculcate national unity and racial interaction? What about leadership by example? How do you expect the students to believe in the programme when their leaders have not integrated politically?

Why is our country so concerned with national unity and integration? Is there an external threat? In our progress towards developed nation status, race and religion should not be part of the government's patronising policies. Fourth-seven years after Independence, we are still worried about which race is dominating or losing its dominance.

Meanwhile, the MCA, MIC and other coalition party leaders are happy to be part of the power- sharing arrangement even though there is no real power to share. The MCA president has to be one acceptable to the Umno president, not one whom is a real democratic choice of MCA.

The MIC president has been involved in the privatisation of most public utility companies. His immense wealth and power within his party ensures there is no competition for his position, and his successor will be one of his choices, subject to the approval of the Umno president.

The Gerakan president cannot even make a statement about religion in schools without censure from the prime minister. Is this 'BN power-sharing' or 'Umno-powered sharing'?

Why can't the public see for themselves what actually happened? How else can we be more transparent?

Malaysia has still a long way to go as far as true democracy is concerned.

[Yahoo]

Quote:
yes, every1 deserves it..... but did u read what i said previously? it's because something happened in the past that has not been reported in the book that made us to have what we have now.
dude...... are we not living in a peaceful country now? that's what i was trying to say... im just comparing it during emergency where malaysians were fighting with each other. you dont get my point do you?
Unquote

Correction :The May 13th riot was not an incident where "Malaysians were fighting with each other". It was actually a massacre of the ethnic Chinese Malaysian. Similar to the Indonesia's anti_Chinese riot in 1988.

I hope all Malaysian should strive for the day where we should help the poor, the under privilege, and the under represented group without the discrimination of race, color, religion, ethnicity, gender, age, sexual orientation, and the handicap. In order to eliminate discrimination, We should all think of ourselves as the "HUMAN" race.