Economics in US, UK, NZ and Australia

[Robyn]

Hello!

I am now trying to do a comparison of studying Economics in US, UK, NZ and Australia. I would love to hear from Economics students about studying Economics in their respective countries. I welcome any post that has got to do with studying overseas - about the life there, the post-graduation options and so on.

My queries are as follows:

1. I often hear that there are more flexibility in the US tertiary education. This sounds too vague to me. Precisely how is it more flexible that other systems? Is it because it is easier for us to switch majors in US? Does the UK, NZ or Australia tertiary education system allow us to take up a double-major or a minor as well?

2. Which are the top universities for Economics in US, UK, NZ and Australia?

3. Does UK, NZ and Australia have internships just like in US?

4. I heard that there are field trips/practicals in US. Is it the same in UK, NZ and Australia too?

5. Is the US system generally less rigorous than others? Less rigorous as in like more relaxed and lesser exams, homework and so on.

6. After graduation, are we offered jobs or places in top Business Schools if we do well academically? Does being in the Dean's List or graduating with honours REALLY give us an extra advantage in securing internships, post-graduation jobs and places in Business Schools.

7. How do I, as a Form 4 student prepare myself for gaining admission to top universities? With the benefit of hindsight, what are the things do you think I should go for in order to gain extra mileage in my application?


Thank you very much.


Best regards,
Robyn Choo

[Robyn]

Hello!

I am now trying to do a comparison of studying Economics in US, UK, NZ and Australia. I would love to hear from Economics students about studying Economics in their respective countries. I welcome any post that has got to do with studying overseas - about the life there, the post-graduation options and so on.

My queries are as follows:

1. I often hear that there are more flexibility in the US tertiary education. This sounds too vague to me. Precisely how is it more flexible that other systems? Is it because it is easier for us to switch majors in US? Does the UK, NZ or Australia tertiary education system allow us to take up a double-major or a minor as well?

2. Which are the top universities for Economics in US, UK, NZ and Australia?

3. Does UK, NZ and Australia have internships just like in US?

4. I heard that there are field trips/practicals in US. Is it the same in UK, NZ and Australia too?

5. Is the US system generally less rigorous than others? Less rigorous as in like more relaxed and lesser exams, homework and so on.

6. After graduation, are we offered jobs or places in top Business Schools if we do well academically? Does being in the Dean's List or graduating with honours REALLY give us an extra advantage in securing internships, post-graduation jobs and places in Business Schools.

7. How do I, as a Form 4 student prepare myself for gaining admission to top universities? With the benefit of hindsight, what are the things do you think I should go for in order to gain extra mileage in my application?


Thank you very much.


Best regards,
Robyn Choo

[jiinjoo]

Here's my take on some of your questions:

Q. Precisely how is it more flexible that other systems?
A. In general, for one to earn a degree in U.S., one usually spend 40% of their time doing core courses, about 30% on elective courses (which is very broad, usually accross their own department) and about 30% of anything else (for some schools anything can mean swimming / golf too i.e. you learn football as credits toward becoming a mechanical engineer say). It also allows you to graduate in any period of time as long as you fulfill the requirement. Some high-achieving American kids so a lot of AP (Advance Placement) subjects in their high school to get credits for their university in advance. You can take any subject at any semester, as long as you have taken the more basic one before that.

Q. Is it because it is easier for us to switch majors in US?
A. That too is a flexibility. An extreme case example - a friend in LA spent 8 years doing his undergrad coz everytime when he's almost done with one major he got bored or found new inspiration, so he went to take other courses. In the end, all you have to do is to tally up your "shopping basket" and see if it meets the criteria of any major in the school, declare it and graduate with it. In practise it is not that easy, but it is possible. Undergrads in Stanford and some other school don't have to decalre their major until the end of their sophomore year.

Q. Is the US system generally less rigorous than others? Less rigorous as in like more relaxed and lesser exams, homework and so on.
A. Totally opposite IMHO. I like to say US system judge you by your character while the British system judge you by your content. In US, you're graded bother by your homeworks and exams. An example split of points will be 30% for your finals, 30% for your midterms and 40% for your homeworks (maybe 4 or 8 of them). This implies that if you make an effort to do your homeworks and get it right / on time etc. you are rewarded.

One interesting case I remember was an Econs course in CMU where the professor had us do the homework first, hand it in, then he gives the lecture. But then homeworks are always full points as long as you wrote something sensible. In that case, you can say thet U.S. system is less rigorous. The amount of knowledge you get out of your education depends on your inherent will to learn.

As to "more relaxed?" I'd give say negative. This partially have to do with your grades and a certain level of desire for an A grade. Knowing that in the exam you might not fair as well as your peers, you want to make sure you get the points for the homeworks. That makes you very tiring because day after day you're just chasing the next deadline. Some say it is a good training for the real world. Others say they'd rather have a more relaxed year throughout and just focus on everything for one month, take the exam and be done with it. This is your call.

Q. After graduation, are we offered jobs or places in top Business Schools if we do well academically?
A. Interesting question - why don't you ask the companies / univerisities themselves? Strictly speaking (in a US context), there are minimum requirements for both, but they are usually attainable if you have ever had a urge to gett a reasonable grade in college. Companies look for other things as well, cliche ones includes IQ, EQ, problem solving skills, presentation skills, etc. I'm sure there's a parallel to graduate business school eventhough I'm not sure about it.

Perhaps I should offer you a different perspective. I don't think these companies or graduate schools owe you anything to "offer" you a reward for academic excellence. You get what you fight for, and academic results is obviously one of the big guns in this battle. It is an objective judgement of your basic character (in the US context again) since it says how well you cope with a demanding environment ("good schools" makes you do more work... I heard). You may or may not use it, depending on your willing-to-pay to give up leisure in exchange for more time to study. There are cases where one's academic resultls was mediocre but he did amazing stuff with his research, to which companies and graduate schools still open their hands widely. Other cases are just pure connections (especially alumnis - they are powerful people) with insiders in companies and graduate schools.

Q. How do I, as a Form 4 student prepare myself for gaining admission to top universities?
A. Live your life to the fullest. Do not let time pass you by without achieving anything (or else face the agony trying to write your university application essays :twisted:). Always find ways to improve yourself, and always help others improve too. Make the best of your opportunity in whatever co-curriculum activities you participate. Make sure you continue to believe in academic excellence since that's still a widely excepted constant. Have faith in yourself. Get your English up to standard if you're looking to go to the countries that you've listed. Watch every episode of 'Friends'.

Q. With the benefit of hindsight, what are the things do you think I should go for in order to gain extra mileage in my application?
A. Go for the things that you believe in (hmm, I can tell you that without the benefit of hindsight too). College application, especially for good schools, is this weird monster that no one can make sense of it since it varies from school to school, from department to department, from admission officer to admission officier. I could say a few things about how to get admitted into CMU in year 2000, and that's about it. I don't think it is representative of anything you will experience.

Sorry can't say much about UK / AU / NZ except UK student life is much more enjoyable than US :( but I guess different people like different things.

[jiinjoo]

Here's my take on some of your questions:

Q. Precisely how is it more flexible that other systems?
A. In general, for one to earn a degree in U.S., one usually spend 40% of their time doing core courses, about 30% on elective courses (which is very broad, usually accross their own department) and about 30% of anything else (for some schools anything can mean swimming / golf too i.e. you learn football as credits toward becoming a mechanical engineer say). It also allows you to graduate in any period of time as long as you fulfill the requirement. Some high-achieving American kids so a lot of AP (Advance Placement) subjects in their high school to get credits for their university in advance. You can take any subject at any semester, as long as you have taken the more basic one before that.

Q. Is it because it is easier for us to switch majors in US?
A. That too is a flexibility. An extreme case example - a friend in LA spent 8 years doing his undergrad coz everytime when he's almost done with one major he got bored or found new inspiration, so he went to take other courses. In the end, all you have to do is to tally up your "shopping basket" and see if it meets the criteria of any major in the school, declare it and graduate with it. In practise it is not that easy, but it is possible. Undergrads in Stanford and some other school don't have to decalre their major until the end of their sophomore year.

Q. Is the US system generally less rigorous than others? Less rigorous as in like more relaxed and lesser exams, homework and so on.
A. Totally opposite IMHO. I like to say US system judge you by your character while the British system judge you by your content. In US, you're graded bother by your homeworks and exams. An example split of points will be 30% for your finals, 30% for your midterms and 40% for your homeworks (maybe 4 or 8 of them). This implies that if you make an effort to do your homeworks and get it right / on time etc. you are rewarded.

One interesting case I remember was an Econs course in CMU where the professor had us do the homework first, hand it in, then he gives the lecture. But then homeworks are always full points as long as you wrote something sensible. In that case, you can say thet U.S. system is less rigorous. The amount of knowledge you get out of your education depends on your inherent will to learn.

As to "more relaxed?" I'd give say negative. This partially have to do with your grades and a certain level of desire for an A grade. Knowing that in the exam you might not fair as well as your peers, you want to make sure you get the points for the homeworks. That makes you very tiring because day after day you're just chasing the next deadline. Some say it is a good training for the real world. Others say they'd rather have a more relaxed year throughout and just focus on everything for one month, take the exam and be done with it. This is your call.

Q. After graduation, are we offered jobs or places in top Business Schools if we do well academically?
A. Interesting question - why don't you ask the companies / univerisities themselves? Strictly speaking (in a US context), there are minimum requirements for both, but they are usually attainable if you have ever had a urge to gett a reasonable grade in college. Companies look for other things as well, cliche ones includes IQ, EQ, problem solving skills, presentation skills, etc. I'm sure there's a parallel to graduate business school eventhough I'm not sure about it.

Perhaps I should offer you a different perspective. I don't think these companies or graduate schools owe you anything to "offer" you a reward for academic excellence. You get what you fight for, and academic results is obviously one of the big guns in this battle. It is an objective judgement of your basic character (in the US context again) since it says how well you cope with a demanding environment ("good schools" makes you do more work... I heard). You may or may not use it, depending on your willing-to-pay to give up leisure in exchange for more time to study. There are cases where one's academic resultls was mediocre but he did amazing stuff with his research, to which companies and graduate schools still open their hands widely. Other cases are just pure connections (especially alumnis - they are powerful people) with insiders in companies and graduate schools.

Q. How do I, as a Form 4 student prepare myself for gaining admission to top universities?
A. Live your life to the fullest. Do not let time pass you by without achieving anything (or else face the agony trying to write your university application essays :twisted:). Always find ways to improve yourself, and always help others improve too. Make the best of your opportunity in whatever co-curriculum activities you participate. Make sure you continue to believe in academic excellence since that's still a widely excepted constant. Have faith in yourself. Get your English up to standard if you're looking to go to the countries that you've listed. Watch every episode of 'Friends'.

Q. With the benefit of hindsight, what are the things do you think I should go for in order to gain extra mileage in my application?
A. Go for the things that you believe in (hmm, I can tell you that without the benefit of hindsight too). College application, especially for good schools, is this weird monster that no one can make sense of it since it varies from school to school, from department to department, from admission officer to admission officier. I could say a few things about how to get admitted into CMU in year 2000, and that's about it. I don't think it is representative of anything you will experience.

Sorry can't say much about UK / AU / NZ except UK student life is much more enjoyable than US :( but I guess different people like different things.

[chenchow]

jiinjoo has provided a fantastic answer to the questions..Below is just my additional viewpoint.

Q. Precisely how is it more flexible that other systems?
In terms of flexible, in fact, what Jiin Joo is saying is a rough guide on the percentage and you can really do it whichever way you like... I took at least 50-60% of my courses completely not related to electrical or computer engineering and ECE is my major. That's absolutely possible.. Yeah, any course. even course like wine tasting... I taking riflery currently.

Yeah, there are people who have graduated in 2 years with A Level entry.

Q. Is it because it is easier for us to switch majors in US?
Yeah, precisely! And in fact, Cornell do have independent major where you don't have to declare any major, but rather create your own major, based on combination of courses that you select. Not sure it will be fine with scholarship agency, but to the univeristy, it is perfectly alright... And am pretty sure other universities do have such thing too...


Q. Is the US system generally less rigorous than others? Less rigorous as in like more relaxed and lesser exams, homework and so on.
I seriously don't think so.... I would say that you have to be always on your toes. Exam is not as much emphasized compared to British or other system. There are courses that you don't even need to take any exam at all. There are courses that rely purely on paper, some courses are graded based on projects and presentations or demonstrations, or labs. It is up to the faculty to decide.

And also you have the flexibility to put whatever workload you wish to take... So, you can choose to take the minimum 12 credit hours, or 15, 18, 20, 25, 30, .... There is a student in Cornell who is taking 60 credit hours. Generally Malaysians here take around 18-22 credit hours. So, if you choose to relax, then take fewer credit hours~!

Q. After graduation, are we offered jobs or places in top Business Schools if we do well academically?
I believe that networking matters a lot and academic results merely help you to go through the screening process. Getting a 3.5 or 3.8 would not make a whole lot of difference. However, as Jiin Joo said, most companies or B Schools look at you as a whole package.

Your soft skills are important. Get to know people, be it recruiters or the CEOs of companies. You will have lots of opportunities to meet those people. I can safely say that I have at least met 50 VPs of various Multinational companies in the past 2.5 years. I have met a number of CEOs etc... You make the choice and go ahead. Make them noted of your presence. There are various ways for you to make your presence felt. I do so by talking about MSC. I don't sell myself, but I sell my country, but indirectly, I do get to sell myself. There have been many occasions that some VPs hand me their card after I talk to them or dine with them and say, "Call me if you need intern or job". Usually they may not even know what courses I am taking, what grade I have etc..

Yeah, alums are powerful. Get in touch with them... For instance, say if you are a company recruiter, would you take someone who attend a career fair and hand you a resume, or you would you take someone who organize the career fair and bring 50 companies to campus. Whom among the two sound more attractive to you. You may not know their grades at all.

I am not trying to say that academic is not at all important, but it is not the only thing. I have seen too many Malaysians and also Singaporeans who are here, studying day till night, with their life centers around books... If you plan to do so, go Amazon and buy the book and read it at your cosy home... Why bother come overseas?

Q. How do I, as a Form 4 student prepare myself for gaining admission to top universities?
Be active! and as JiinJoo says, Live your life to the fullest. Have some attributes that you can call yourself unique. Either you are a multitalented person or a person with great achievement in a field, you have to have stuff to show when you apply and write your essays!

Q. With the benefit of hindsight, what are the things do you think I should go for in order to gain extra mileage in my application?
They look at overall package of yourself. You sell yourself on an overall scale. They don't look at one thing, oh you are good at grades, you are good at this and that. They look at one person and as Cornell look at, if we admit this person, what unique value would he/she brings to the campus, and what added value would he/she learn from this campus. It must be a win-win situation for that to click!

Hope this helps. Hope that many will share their opinions.

Robyn, good luck~!

[chenchow]

jiinjoo has provided a fantastic answer to the questions..Below is just my additional viewpoint.

Q. Precisely how is it more flexible that other systems?
In terms of flexible, in fact, what Jiin Joo is saying is a rough guide on the percentage and you can really do it whichever way you like... I took at least 50-60% of my courses completely not related to electrical or computer engineering and ECE is my major. That's absolutely possible.. Yeah, any course. even course like wine tasting... I taking riflery currently.

Yeah, there are people who have graduated in 2 years with A Level entry.

Q. Is it because it is easier for us to switch majors in US?
Yeah, precisely! And in fact, Cornell do have independent major where you don't have to declare any major, but rather create your own major, based on combination of courses that you select. Not sure it will be fine with scholarship agency, but to the univeristy, it is perfectly alright... And am pretty sure other universities do have such thing too...


Q. Is the US system generally less rigorous than others? Less rigorous as in like more relaxed and lesser exams, homework and so on.
I seriously don't think so.... I would say that you have to be always on your toes. Exam is not as much emphasized compared to British or other system. There are courses that you don't even need to take any exam at all. There are courses that rely purely on paper, some courses are graded based on projects and presentations or demonstrations, or labs. It is up to the faculty to decide.

And also you have the flexibility to put whatever workload you wish to take... So, you can choose to take the minimum 12 credit hours, or 15, 18, 20, 25, 30, .... There is a student in Cornell who is taking 60 credit hours. Generally Malaysians here take around 18-22 credit hours. So, if you choose to relax, then take fewer credit hours~!

Q. After graduation, are we offered jobs or places in top Business Schools if we do well academically?
I believe that networking matters a lot and academic results merely help you to go through the screening process. Getting a 3.5 or 3.8 would not make a whole lot of difference. However, as Jiin Joo said, most companies or B Schools look at you as a whole package.

Your soft skills are important. Get to know people, be it recruiters or the CEOs of companies. You will have lots of opportunities to meet those people. I can safely say that I have at least met 50 VPs of various Multinational companies in the past 2.5 years. I have met a number of CEOs etc... You make the choice and go ahead. Make them noted of your presence. There are various ways for you to make your presence felt. I do so by talking about MSC. I don't sell myself, but I sell my country, but indirectly, I do get to sell myself. There have been many occasions that some VPs hand me their card after I talk to them or dine with them and say, "Call me if you need intern or job". Usually they may not even know what courses I am taking, what grade I have etc..

Yeah, alums are powerful. Get in touch with them... For instance, say if you are a company recruiter, would you take someone who attend a career fair and hand you a resume, or you would you take someone who organize the career fair and bring 50 companies to campus. Whom among the two sound more attractive to you. You may not know their grades at all.

I am not trying to say that academic is not at all important, but it is not the only thing. I have seen too many Malaysians and also Singaporeans who are here, studying day till night, with their life centers around books... If you plan to do so, go Amazon and buy the book and read it at your cosy home... Why bother come overseas?

Q. How do I, as a Form 4 student prepare myself for gaining admission to top universities?
Be active! and as JiinJoo says, Live your life to the fullest. Have some attributes that you can call yourself unique. Either you are a multitalented person or a person with great achievement in a field, you have to have stuff to show when you apply and write your essays!

Q. With the benefit of hindsight, what are the things do you think I should go for in order to gain extra mileage in my application?
They look at overall package of yourself. You sell yourself on an overall scale. They don't look at one thing, oh you are good at grades, you are good at this and that. They look at one person and as Cornell look at, if we admit this person, what unique value would he/she brings to the campus, and what added value would he/she learn from this campus. It must be a win-win situation for that to click!

Hope this helps. Hope that many will share their opinions.

Robyn, good luck~!

[noneedname]

--------



letter from friend ------------




I was study in Melbourne Australia for 2 years, I met a lot of Malaysian who had migrated to the country, some of them work in big company such as Nissan, NEC, etc, some of them open restaurants (there are Malaysian restaurants everywhere in Australia), and their life is good and fairly treated by the locals.

In Melbourne, a lot of Malaysian (99% Chinese) lived in a suburbs, most of them sent their kids to local school, and all have no problem on their race and nationality because besides Malaysia, there are also a lot of Indonesian, Japanese, Singaporean, Turkish, Vietnamese, etc. They can learn their own language without any restriction from the authorities. And everyone is compete on level playing field, everything is based on merit.

The living environment there is very nice, clean air and water (water can directly drink from tap), nicely built roads and residential area, almost perfect mass transit system (although I feel that Singapore is better) where you can live and travel easily without own car. Living cost there is relatively cheaper compare to KL (dollar to dollar).

The main reason for this migration is that some of them felt that they were second-class citizens (the Chinese) and third-class citizens (the Indians) in the country that they were born in. The high cost of living and non-support from the government have also resulted in smaller families among the non-malays.

For those who ran away or are thinking about running, my best wishes to you. But for the others who stand and fight, my respect for you.




-------------

[coolstudy]

I have relatives in Australia, Europe and the United States.

Let me detail the experience of my family members in the West:

1. Equal job opportunities at all levels exempt probably the highest post but today even this is changing. Look at the recent appointment of an Indian born lady as the CEO of Pepsi Cola.

2. Equal opportunity to be elected as dean or vice chancellor of universities. Some of the heads of top universities in the US are Chinese or Indians.

3. Equal opportunity to enter universities for all courses including medicine.

4. Equal rights for all citizens unlike Malaysia where recent Muslim immigrants from Indonesia and Pakistan have been given more rights compared to non-Muslim Malaysians whose ancestors arrived in the country some 300 years ago. This is religious apartheid.

5. No differential prices for houses.

6. Scholarships based on either merit or need and not on creed, race or religion. In Malaysia, a malay Muslim has a better chance of getting a scholarship compared to a non-Muslim from a poor background.

I am saddened and very distressed to see how far the country has slid down over the past three decades. Due to corruption, excessive politicking and faulty policies, the country is gradually heading for the direction of Argentina, Indonesia and Philippines or even worse.

I fear that we have now reached a point of no return. Only the oil reserves are buffering us from a more rapid descent. But for how long! Then the crunch will really bite.

Please have your parachutes ready when the great crunch finally arrives.

[__earth]

trolls are at it again.

[druid]

I'm a student in NZ so I'll answer from the NZ perspective.

1. Is it because it is easier for us to switch majors in US?
It's quite easy to switch majors in NZ as well. Most people don't decide on their majortill 2nd year.

- Does the UK, NZ or Australia tertiary education system allow us to take up a double-major or a minor as well?
Yes. Most people do a double degree or at least a double major. I'm doing a double degree in law and economics (LLB/BA(Econs)).

Double major: two majors (eg economics and accounting) within a single degree. You can also add a minor if you want. In NZ, there is normally the choice of doing economics as a BCom or BA. This affects your second major and electives you might take. I chose BA cos I'm not interested in most commerce papers... would rather do psychology and philosophy electives, among others.

Double degree: name speaks for itself. Basically graduate with two degrees. You can do a double major/minor within the one or both of the degrees.

2. Which are the top universities for Economics in US, UK, NZ and Australia?
University of Auckland, University of Otago.

3. Does UK, NZ and Australia have internships just like in US?
Yes. Though I'm not sure how easy it is for an international student to get them. I believe a student visa allows full-time work during holidays so there should be no need to worry about work permits etc.

4. I heard that there are field trips/practicals in US. Is it the same in UK, NZ and Australia too?
No. Never heard of field trips for economics. Only for subjects like geography, history, language/culture studies....

5. Is the US system generally less rigorous than others? Less rigorous as in like more relaxed and lesser exams, homework and so on.
No idea. I suppose the answer varied from individual to individual, and uni to uni.


6. After graduation, are we offered jobs or places in top Business Schools if we do well academically? Does being in the Dean's List or graduating with honours REALLY give us an extra advantage in securing internships, post-graduation jobs and places in Business Schools.
Yes. Better grades are always an advantage. Provided you don't appear as a bookworm who studies 24/7.

7. How do I, as a Form 4 student prepare myself for gaining admission to top universities? With the benefit of hindsight, what are the things do you think I should go for in order to gain extra mileage in my application?
Try getting involved in extra-curricular activities that shows your interest in the subject. Though it doesn't really matter for NZ economics applications. They just look at your grades and nothing else. [/b]