Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

[__earth]

Surely, this is modern time greatest rivalry.

Any thought on the conflict in the mideast?

[__earth]

Surely, this is modern time greatest rivalry.

Any thought on the conflict in the mideast?

[Diesel]

no. it's not comparible to the cold war rivalry.
this war is more about border conflict, while the cold war is more to winning global geopolitical influence.

[Diesel]

no. it's not comparible to the cold war rivalry.
this war is more about border conflict, while the cold war is more to winning global geopolitical influence.

[__earth]

though i've editted part of my earlier post, even if i didnt edit it, i find that you are straying off course.
um, let's stay on course shall we?

[__earth]

though i've editted part of my earlier post, even if i didnt edit it, i find that you are straying off course.
um, let's stay on course shall we?

[Diesel]

well, i dont think i was off the course. i was just saying that your earlier comparison was not really accurate.

i think in the mid east, both are wrong.
The Isrealis can just bulldoze any village where they suspect the terrorists are nesting. That ain't right.
The palestinians may protest, but they should not resort to killing innocent people. Not in the name of Islam. Any kind of suicide is prohibited in Islam. Suicide is not like going to war. When you go to war, you're prepared to die. But you dont go to war to die.

[Diesel]

well, i dont think i was off the course. i was just saying that your earlier comparison was not really accurate.

i think in the mid east, both are wrong.
The Isrealis can just bulldoze any village where they suspect the terrorists are nesting. That ain't right.
The palestinians may protest, but they should not resort to killing innocent people. Not in the name of Islam. Any kind of suicide is prohibited in Islam. Suicide is not like going to war. When you go to war, you're prepared to die. But you dont go to war to die.

[Thirdshifter]

thoughts? The problem is Education. Al lthis freaking Arabs don't go to school to learn their own history and start thinking on their own. The arabs had let themselves be manipulated by their stupid (insert anything you like here) lunatic looser leaders who has a ball so small they won't admit it.

So thats pretty much the root of the conflict. For once i have to say it is the Arabs and Muslim population in general who never condemns and stop any diplomatic relationship with all these brutal arab dictatorships, Kings Ayotullah etc.

If the children of palestine would start going to school and realize that the world is big enough for jewish and Muslims to live side by side.

I hope Malaysia will start condemning all arab nation that violates human rights etc.

we could start with saudi arabia.

Maybe we should get US to invade saudi since all of the Islam nations are pussies.

[Thirdshifter]

thoughts? The problem is Education. Al lthis freaking Arabs don't go to school to learn their own history and start thinking on their own. The arabs had let themselves be manipulated by their stupid (insert anything you like here) lunatic looser leaders who has a ball so small they won't admit it.

So thats pretty much the root of the conflict. For once i have to say it is the Arabs and Muslim population in general who never condemns and stop any diplomatic relationship with all these brutal arab dictatorships, Kings Ayotullah etc.

If the children of palestine would start going to school and realize that the world is big enough for jewish and Muslims to live side by side.

I hope Malaysia will start condemning all arab nation that violates human rights etc.

we could start with saudi arabia.

Maybe we should get US to invade saudi since all of the Islam nations are pussies.

[Diesel]

Why should Malaysia condemn their violation of human rights when we do that too?

[Diesel]

Why should Malaysia condemn their violation of human rights when we do that too?

[soul_out]

Please do not close this topic...i think this is the interesting one. Apart from that, you don't really have the chance to discuss this type of topic in Malaysia.

I do have confident on our moderator. They might get mad sometimes, but it's just their temper and the way they carry themselves. It's nothing to do with the discussion.

Malaysia Boleh. :D

[soul_out]

Please do not close this topic...i think this is the interesting one. Apart from that, you don't really have the chance to discuss this type of topic in Malaysia.

I do have confident on our moderator. They might get mad sometimes, but it's just their temper and the way they carry themselves. It's nothing to do with the discussion.

Malaysia Boleh. :D

[Diesel]

Moderator Action

Deleted

[Diesel]

Moderator Action

Deleted

[el_empty]

The problem is Education. Al lthis freaking Arabs don't go to school to learn their own history and start thinking on their own. The arabs had let themselves be manipulated by their stupid (insert anything you like here) lunatic looser leaders who has a ball so small they won't admit it.

So thats pretty much the root of the conflict. For once i have to say it is the Arabs and Muslim population in general who never condemns and stop any diplomatic relationship with all these brutal arab dictatorships, Kings Ayotullah etc.

If the children of palestine would start going to school and realize that the world is big enough for jewish and Muslims to live side by side.


anyhow, thirdshifter, i don't think you can just blame the arabs so quickly. think about what would make them go to such drastic measures in order to reclaim their land (in their opinion).

and even if they recognize the position of the jews, what did the jews do to them in order to provoke such immense reaction?

and what about the resentment the palestinians face, as the world seeks to legitimize israel, and not their own sovereignty?

and lastly i think you should not generalize the countries in this region as 'arab' and muslim' (note: "freaking arabs"). egypt under anwar sadat has taken steps before in reconciliating the two countries. former king hussein of jordan undertakes a more neutral stand in the conflict. and there're plenty of others in the UAE and kuwait who do not stand by palestine.

please be more considerate. thank you.[/quote]

[el_empty]

The problem is Education. Al lthis freaking Arabs don't go to school to learn their own history and start thinking on their own. The arabs had let themselves be manipulated by their stupid (insert anything you like here) lunatic looser leaders who has a ball so small they won't admit it.

So thats pretty much the root of the conflict. For once i have to say it is the Arabs and Muslim population in general who never condemns and stop any diplomatic relationship with all these brutal arab dictatorships, Kings Ayotullah etc.

If the children of palestine would start going to school and realize that the world is big enough for jewish and Muslims to live side by side.


anyhow, thirdshifter, i don't think you can just blame the arabs so quickly. think about what would make them go to such drastic measures in order to reclaim their land (in their opinion).

and even if they recognize the position of the jews, what did the jews do to them in order to provoke such immense reaction?

and what about the resentment the palestinians face, as the world seeks to legitimize israel, and not their own sovereignty?

and lastly i think you should not generalize the countries in this region as 'arab' and muslim' (note: "freaking arabs"). egypt under anwar sadat has taken steps before in reconciliating the two countries. former king hussein of jordan undertakes a more neutral stand in the conflict. and there're plenty of others in the UAE and kuwait who do not stand by palestine.

please be more considerate. thank you.[/quote]

[__earth]

i think the problem right now is the wall.

the wall that israel is building is clearly runs parallel with the aparteid system.

but sharon said the wall is to create an suitable atmosphere for peace negotiation. I say that's bs. creating the wall only increase the heat between israel and palestine.

but then , i do agree how hamas is being impossible to the peace process. if hamas for once stop the attack voluntarily, maybe a peace negotiation could be renewed.

it was a waste to see Clinton's camp davis peace negoatiation went down the drain a few years ago. i do remember during the camp davis thing, there was almost an agreement but i think ararat refused it. Does anybody know why?

[__earth]

i think the problem right now is the wall.

the wall that israel is building is clearly runs parallel with the aparteid system.

but sharon said the wall is to create an suitable atmosphere for peace negotiation. I say that's bs. creating the wall only increase the heat between israel and palestine.

but then , i do agree how hamas is being impossible to the peace process. if hamas for once stop the attack voluntarily, maybe a peace negotiation could be renewed.

it was a waste to see Clinton's camp davis peace negoatiation went down the drain a few years ago. i do remember during the camp davis thing, there was almost an agreement but i think ararat refused it. Does anybody know why?

[Thirdshifter]

anyhow, thirdshifter, i don't think you can just blame the arabs so quickly. think about what would make them go to such drastic measures in order to reclaim their land (in their opinion).

and even if they recognize the position of the jews, what did the jews do to them in order to provoke such immense reaction?

and what about the resentment the palestinians face, as the world seeks to legitimize israel, and not their own sovereignty?

and lastly i think you should not generalize the countries in this region as 'arab' and muslim' (note: "freaking arabs"). egypt under anwar sadat has taken steps before in reconciliating the two countries. former king hussein of jordan undertakes a more neutral stand in the conflict. and there're plenty of others in the UAE and kuwait who do not stand by palestine.

please be more considerate. thank you.

I apologize for the generalization. What i truly meant was the -friggin Arab leaders-.

I totally overlooked the fact that Arab leaders are Self appointed thus do not represent the true Opinion of the Man on the streets in the Arab land.

Back to the course of this topic.

Egypt Is getting the equal amount of aid, if not More from USA just to keep egypt from attacking Israel again-like they did in the 60s-

Jordan on the other hand is the country who actually stole palestinians land.
The amount of Refugee that are in Jordan are in the millions and most refuse to return because in their opinion Jordan is part of their land as well.

Unfortunatly all Arab nations do not grant citizenship to these refugees and let them start a new life there. Sad isn't it?
The Arab leaders are using the cause of palestine to futher their politics agenda.

Instead of finding a mutual respect between the Arabs majority and the Jewish Minority which is strongly backed by US in the name of preserving democracy. The arabs continue to Assault every thing the Israeli try to achieve in a peace negotiation

I still remembered how all Muslim nations opened their doors for the Bosnian-muslims, why not to the Palestinians as well?

Muslims leaders continue to put the blame on the Israelis when obviously it is the Palistinians militants that vowed to fight untill there's no Jews in their sacred land.

As a muslim myself i condemn the actions taken by groups like Hamas and Hezbollah,etc.

More to it is, Yasser Arafat' a nobel Peace prize winner is promoting violence with his hatred speech to it's fellow palestinians.

A soveirgn Palestine State never existed in Human history and never will as long as the Violence continues

If Gandhi could crubmle an empire as big as the British without force i'm sure the palestinians could as well.

All in all, its a matter of which side of the fence we want to be at.

For me, I strongly have doubts that Yasser Arafat and many other Arab leaders are capable of bringing peace. Maybe U.N

should pass a resolution and Send troops to the region and reset all boarders and divide the land rightfully this time.

[Thirdshifter]

anyhow, thirdshifter, i don't think you can just blame the arabs so quickly. think about what would make them go to such drastic measures in order to reclaim their land (in their opinion).

and even if they recognize the position of the jews, what did the jews do to them in order to provoke such immense reaction?

and what about the resentment the palestinians face, as the world seeks to legitimize israel, and not their own sovereignty?

and lastly i think you should not generalize the countries in this region as 'arab' and muslim' (note: "freaking arabs"). egypt under anwar sadat has taken steps before in reconciliating the two countries. former king hussein of jordan undertakes a more neutral stand in the conflict. and there're plenty of others in the UAE and kuwait who do not stand by palestine.

please be more considerate. thank you.

I apologize for the generalization. What i truly meant was the -friggin Arab leaders-.

I totally overlooked the fact that Arab leaders are Self appointed thus do not represent the true Opinion of the Man on the streets in the Arab land.

Back to the course of this topic.

Egypt Is getting the equal amount of aid, if not More from USA just to keep egypt from attacking Israel again-like they did in the 60s-

Jordan on the other hand is the country who actually stole palestinians land.
The amount of Refugee that are in Jordan are in the millions and most refuse to return because in their opinion Jordan is part of their land as well.

Unfortunatly all Arab nations do not grant citizenship to these refugees and let them start a new life there. Sad isn't it?
The Arab leaders are using the cause of palestine to futher their politics agenda.

Instead of finding a mutual respect between the Arabs majority and the Jewish Minority which is strongly backed by US in the name of preserving democracy. The arabs continue to Assault every thing the Israeli try to achieve in a peace negotiation

I still remembered how all Muslim nations opened their doors for the Bosnian-muslims, why not to the Palestinians as well?

Muslims leaders continue to put the blame on the Israelis when obviously it is the Palistinians militants that vowed to fight untill there's no Jews in their sacred land.

As a muslim myself i condemn the actions taken by groups like Hamas and Hezbollah,etc.

More to it is, Yasser Arafat' a nobel Peace prize winner is promoting violence with his hatred speech to it's fellow palestinians.

A soveirgn Palestine State never existed in Human history and never will as long as the Violence continues

If Gandhi could crubmle an empire as big as the British without force i'm sure the palestinians could as well.

All in all, its a matter of which side of the fence we want to be at.

For me, I strongly have doubts that Yasser Arafat and many other Arab leaders are capable of bringing peace. Maybe U.N

should pass a resolution and Send troops to the region and reset all boarders and divide the land rightfully this time.

[__earth]

Unfortunatly all Arab nations do not grant citizenship to these refugees and let them start a new life there. Sad isn't it?
The Arab leaders are using the cause of palestine to futher their politics agenda.

Instead of finding a mutual respect between the Arabs majority and the Jewish Minority which is strongly backed by US in the name of preserving democracy. The arabs continue to Assault every thing the Israeli try to achieve in a peace negotiation

I still remembered how all Muslim nations opened their doors for the Bosnian-muslims, why not to the Palestinians as well?


If the surrounding Arab nations grant citizenship to the refugees, that would give up the political pressure on Israel and the realization of Palestine will reach a new low.

of course it sounds inhuman to not grant citizenship for this refugee but its all for a greater purpose.

[__earth]

Unfortunatly all Arab nations do not grant citizenship to these refugees and let them start a new life there. Sad isn't it?
The Arab leaders are using the cause of palestine to futher their politics agenda.

Instead of finding a mutual respect between the Arabs majority and the Jewish Minority which is strongly backed by US in the name of preserving democracy. The arabs continue to Assault every thing the Israeli try to achieve in a peace negotiation

I still remembered how all Muslim nations opened their doors for the Bosnian-muslims, why not to the Palestinians as well?


If the surrounding Arab nations grant citizenship to the refugees, that would give up the political pressure on Israel and the realization of Palestine will reach a new low.

of course it sounds inhuman to not grant citizenship for this refugee but its all for a greater purpose.

[Thirdshifter]

Unfortunatly all Arab nations do not grant citizenship to these refugees and let them start a new life there. Sad isn't it?
The Arab leaders are using the cause of palestine to futher their politics agenda.

Instead of finding a mutual respect between the Arabs majority and the Jewish Minority which is strongly backed by US in the name of preserving democracy. The arabs continue to Assault every thing the Israeli try to achieve in a peace negotiation

I still remembered how all Muslim nations opened their doors for the Bosnian-muslims, why not to the Palestinians as well?


If the surrounding Arab nations grant citizenship to the refugees, that would give up the political pressure on Israel and the realization of Palestine will reach a new low.

of course it sounds inhuman to not grant citizenship for this refugee but its all for a greater purpose.

The Jordan, UAE, Saudi won't even give citizenship to Immigrants that is born in their country. Refugees? that is way out the question.

What palestine cause? Tell one good reason why palestine attacked israel in the first place? one good reason israel should retreat from their current position on the boarder.. With all the measure Israel took to prevent attacks on their innocent civilian, the palestinian authority just let it slide.

I'm not pro israel but common guys The palestinian is without a cause now.

[Thirdshifter]

Unfortunatly all Arab nations do not grant citizenship to these refugees and let them start a new life there. Sad isn't it?
The Arab leaders are using the cause of palestine to futher their politics agenda.

Instead of finding a mutual respect between the Arabs majority and the Jewish Minority which is strongly backed by US in the name of preserving democracy. The arabs continue to Assault every thing the Israeli try to achieve in a peace negotiation

I still remembered how all Muslim nations opened their doors for the Bosnian-muslims, why not to the Palestinians as well?


If the surrounding Arab nations grant citizenship to the refugees, that would give up the political pressure on Israel and the realization of Palestine will reach a new low.

of course it sounds inhuman to not grant citizenship for this refugee but its all for a greater purpose.

The Jordan, UAE, Saudi won't even give citizenship to Immigrants that is born in their country. Refugees? that is way out the question.

What palestine cause? Tell one good reason why palestine attacked israel in the first place? one good reason israel should retreat from their current position on the boarder.. With all the measure Israel took to prevent attacks on their innocent civilian, the palestinian authority just let it slide.

I'm not pro israel but common guys The palestinian is without a cause now.

[__earth]

What palestine cause? Tell one good reason why palestine attacked israel in the first place? one good reason israel should retreat from their current position on the boarder.. With all the measure Israel took to prevent attacks on their innocent civilian, the palestinian authority just let it slide.

I'm not pro israel but common guys The palestinian is without a cause now.

how about history? remember how israel was created. A land full of arab was given to the jew minority. the cause is about getting back that land which was given to Israel unfairly.

But almost 70 years later, to eliminate the state of Israel is impossible and the best way is to create two states - Israel and Palestine. Israel however refuses to do that, for the moment at least.

worse, with the building of the wall, israel is stealing more autonomous Palestinian's lands. Just google the wall plan and you'll see how some of the autonomous Palestinian lands are being taken away forcefully.

[__earth]

What palestine cause? Tell one good reason why palestine attacked israel in the first place? one good reason israel should retreat from their current position on the boarder.. With all the measure Israel took to prevent attacks on their innocent civilian, the palestinian authority just let it slide.

I'm not pro israel but common guys The palestinian is without a cause now.

how about history? remember how israel was created. A land full of arab was given to the jew minority. the cause is about getting back that land which was given to Israel unfairly.

But almost 70 years later, to eliminate the state of Israel is impossible and the best way is to create two states - Israel and Palestine. Israel however refuses to do that, for the moment at least.

worse, with the building of the wall, israel is stealing more autonomous Palestinian's lands. Just google the wall plan and you'll see how some of the autonomous Palestinian lands are being taken away forcefully.

[Thirdshifter]

how about history? remember how israel was created. A land full of arab was given to the jew minority. the cause is about getting back that land which was given to Israel unfairly.

But almost 70 years later, to eliminate the state of Israel is impossible and the best way is to create two states - Israel and Palestine. Israel however refuses to do that, for the moment at least.

worse, with the building of the wall, israel is stealing more autonomous Palestinian's lands. Just google the wall plan and you'll see how some of the autonomous Palestinian lands are being taken away forcefully.

History? Why not go back 2000 years? Jews was in That region before the name Palestine, which was given by the roman even existed?

Matter of fact i just doubled checked this. Palestine never existed as a country.

Why arent we accusing Jordan of stealing the poor palestinians land?

Here's a little history:

Part of Jordan which was under the British Rule was given to Jewish.

The wall is ofcourse a stupid move by Israel. But to think about it Look at USA.

Hit WTC and the whole afganistan+iraq was bombed out.

If israel is truly trying to forcefully eliminate Palestinians chance of getting thir own stae, Im sure they would've bomb the crap out of them a long time ago.

Since Israel is the sole democracy in the Middle east, It has naturally become a responsibility of sane minded leaders to be pro-Israel.

Unfortunatly malaysia chose not to recognize Israel as a country. Maybe we should start diplomatic relationship with Israel and star making friends with the jews.

[Thirdshifter]

how about history? remember how israel was created. A land full of arab was given to the jew minority. the cause is about getting back that land which was given to Israel unfairly.

But almost 70 years later, to eliminate the state of Israel is impossible and the best way is to create two states - Israel and Palestine. Israel however refuses to do that, for the moment at least.

worse, with the building of the wall, israel is stealing more autonomous Palestinian's lands. Just google the wall plan and you'll see how some of the autonomous Palestinian lands are being taken away forcefully.

History? Why not go back 2000 years? Jews was in That region before the name Palestine, which was given by the roman even existed?

Matter of fact i just doubled checked this. Palestine never existed as a country.

Why arent we accusing Jordan of stealing the poor palestinians land?

Here's a little history:

Part of Jordan which was under the British Rule was given to Jewish.

The wall is ofcourse a stupid move by Israel. But to think about it Look at USA.

Hit WTC and the whole afganistan+iraq was bombed out.

If israel is truly trying to forcefully eliminate Palestinians chance of getting thir own stae, Im sure they would've bomb the crap out of them a long time ago.

Since Israel is the sole democracy in the Middle east, It has naturally become a responsibility of sane minded leaders to be pro-Israel.

Unfortunatly malaysia chose not to recognize Israel as a country. Maybe we should start diplomatic relationship with Israel and star making friends with the jews.

[__earth]

I said:
A land full of arab was given to the jew minority. the cause is about getting back that land which was given to Israel unfairly.

Notice that I didn't say Palestine at that time exist. At that particular time, during the establishment of Israel, majority of the people there was Arab. but the land was given to the minority.

the question is not when but how israel was created. Just observe the figure taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#History:

In 1947, the British government agreed to withdraw from their mandate of Palestine. The 1947 UN Partition Plan split the mandate into two states, giving about half the land to each state. The Jews, with about 30% of the population, got 55% of the land, including the coveted coastal strip. Arab authorities rejected the plan.

but then again, even that is irrelevent right now. The only thing is peacefully coexistence of israel and an independent palestinian state side by side.

[__earth]

I said:
A land full of arab was given to the jew minority. the cause is about getting back that land which was given to Israel unfairly.

Notice that I didn't say Palestine at that time exist. At that particular time, during the establishment of Israel, majority of the people there was Arab. but the land was given to the minority.

the question is not when but how israel was created. Just observe the figure taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#History:

In 1947, the British government agreed to withdraw from their mandate of Palestine. The 1947 UN Partition Plan split the mandate into two states, giving about half the land to each state. The Jews, with about 30% of the population, got 55% of the land, including the coveted coastal strip. Arab authorities rejected the plan.

but then again, even that is irrelevent right now. The only thing is peacefully coexistence of israel and an independent palestinian state side by side.

[Thirdshifter]

Ofcourse they will get 55% of a small piece of land, mostly desert anyway. Considering how many Jewish came to Israel in the following years i find it to be fairly divided.

We also have to remember the hatred towards Jewish. So i think in my opinion it is fair to grant them that land and let them live on their own.

The arabs simply can digest the fact that they can't do anything t stop it. Instead of accepting the fact and try to live peacefully side by side they retialite and get their hiney kicked everytime and then whine how unfair the world is to them.

Maybe if they look around and realize that they are more important thing then getting the palestinian 5% of land back maybe we could make some progress.

[Thirdshifter]

Ofcourse they will get 55% of a small piece of land, mostly desert anyway. Considering how many Jewish came to Israel in the following years i find it to be fairly divided.

We also have to remember the hatred towards Jewish. So i think in my opinion it is fair to grant them that land and let them live on their own.

The arabs simply can digest the fact that they can't do anything t stop it. Instead of accepting the fact and try to live peacefully side by side they retialite and get their hiney kicked everytime and then whine how unfair the world is to them.

Maybe if they look around and realize that they are more important thing then getting the palestinian 5% of land back maybe we could make some progress.

[__earth]

I don't see how the subsequent encouragemet of jews immigration into the mideast planned by israel after 1947 could be used to justify the 55% land given by the UN to the state of Israel in 1947.

Could you explain how you reached that conclusion?

[__earth]

I don't see how the subsequent encouragemet of jews immigration into the mideast planned by israel after 1947 could be used to justify the 55% land given by the UN to the state of Israel in 1947.

Could you explain how you reached that conclusion?

[Thirdshifter]

I don't see how the subsequent encouragemet of jews immigration into the mideast planned by israel after 1947 could be used to justify the 55% land given by the UN to the state of Israel in 1947.

Could you explain how you reached that conclusion?

It was a well known fact that there was a lot of Jewish Refugees around europe and it was UN intention to get them a place to start a new life.

Also in your opinion how much land does the israeli should give back?

For me, i would rather have Israel as a secular country and the palestinians would have the same oppurtunity to run for office as the jews.

After all, the palestinians have twice the grwoth rate compared to Israel. So in 40 years They'll be more Muslims living in Israel to actually elect a Palestinian PM.

[Thirdshifter]

I don't see how the subsequent encouragemet of jews immigration into the mideast planned by israel after 1947 could be used to justify the 55% land given by the UN to the state of Israel in 1947.

Could you explain how you reached that conclusion?

It was a well known fact that there was a lot of Jewish Refugees around europe and it was UN intention to get them a place to start a new life.

Also in your opinion how much land does the israeli should give back?

For me, i would rather have Israel as a secular country and the palestinians would have the same oppurtunity to run for office as the jews.

After all, the palestinians have twice the grwoth rate compared to Israel. So in 40 years They'll be more Muslims living in Israel to actually elect a Palestinian PM.

[__earth]

Also in your opinion how much land does the israeli should give back?

If I were at the UN at that time, I would have given much less land to Israel - certainly not more than half to the then 30% minority.

For me, i would rather have Israel as a secular country and the palestinians would have the same oppurtunity to run for office as the jews.

I share this view but I don't think the Palestinians and the Jews, in particular orthodox jews share it.

[__earth]

Also in your opinion how much land does the israeli should give back?

If I were at the UN at that time, I would have given much less land to Israel - certainly not more than half to the then 30% minority.

For me, i would rather have Israel as a secular country and the palestinians would have the same oppurtunity to run for office as the jews.

I share this view but I don't think the Palestinians and the Jews, in particular orthodox jews share it.

[wawa]

It was a well known fact that there was a lot of Jewish Refugees around europe and it was UN intention to get them a place to start a new life.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the banishment of Jews occur a few thousands years ago? If we're going count till that far, everybody would be fighting, right? Some of the ;refugees' have stayed in respective countries for generations, instead of assimilating into the country and remembering what has happened as history, they're................ :?:

[wawa]

It was a well known fact that there was a lot of Jewish Refugees around europe and it was UN intention to get them a place to start a new life.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the banishment of Jews occur a few thousands years ago? If we're going count till that far, everybody would be fighting, right? Some of the ;refugees' have stayed in respective countries for generations, instead of assimilating into the country and remembering what has happened as history, they're................ :?:

[Thirdshifter]

It was a well known fact that there was a lot of Jewish Refugees around europe and it was UN intention to get them a place to start a new life.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the banishment of Jews occur a few thousands years ago? If we're going count till that far, everybody would be fighting, right? Some of the ;refugees' have stayed in respective countries for generations, instead of assimilating into the country and remembering what has happened as history, they're................ :?:

Don't tell me you forgot the holocaust. Anti-Semitism in Europe is strong and many Jewish are being Killed, Sent to jail, robbed simply for being a jew.

As you said it, it was banished thousands of years ago? so why care if the palestinians are getting banished right now?

[Thirdshifter]

It was a well known fact that there was a lot of Jewish Refugees around europe and it was UN intention to get them a place to start a new life.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the banishment of Jews occur a few thousands years ago? If we're going count till that far, everybody would be fighting, right? Some of the ;refugees' have stayed in respective countries for generations, instead of assimilating into the country and remembering what has happened as history, they're................ :?:

Don't tell me you forgot the holocaust. Anti-Semitism in Europe is strong and many Jewish are being Killed, Sent to jail, robbed simply for being a jew.

As you said it, it was banished thousands of years ago? so why care if the palestinians are getting banished right now?

[Yeogolas]

It never end cause palestinian is jihad to saved his, country ..
Irael is bad cause :twisted: they wanna to get the ground who runaway from the that .. cause they afraid .. to get back ...
Now they are strong they wanna get back with terrorism... poor Palestinian....
But Isreal love that ...

[Yeogolas]

It never end cause palestinian is jihad to saved his, country ..
Irael is bad cause :twisted: they wanna to get the ground who runaway from the that .. cause they afraid .. to get back ...
Now they are strong they wanna get back with terrorism... poor Palestinian....
But Isreal love that ...

[Diesel]

i dont understand.

[Diesel]

i dont understand.

[__earth]

i dont understand.

i second that :D

[__earth]

i dont understand.

i second that :D

[wawa]

Diesel wrote:
i dont understand.


i second that

me too

[wawa]

Diesel wrote:
i dont understand.


i second that

me too

[sanghanuman]

I don't even know where to start to begin discussing about this ... war. It's all complicated now and we can't just throw things around, blaming one party to another. Perhaps we should blame ourselves for not giving much effort to consider this war from the two(palestinian and israelian) points of view before saying "the arabs can go dig their grave now" or simply "israelis are suckers".

I agree with _earth that the issue here is how can they settle down, sharing the land together without fighting, not who should give what land to whom, and all that history crap.

The truth is that, I don't know if they can do that. While history might not be the issue right now, it certainly is the reason for all this mess, and to change/forget history is not easy. My suggestion is that, we, you and I, should stop talking about history right now and start to discuss on how can we could ameliorate the condition humbly.

Somebody talked about education (in Palestine), and I think it is a brilliant start. Although the situation there is not condusive for mass education (school bombing, raid, attacks cause schools to close), maybe education can start from home, or neighborhood. I am sure in one neighborhood there is at least one person who is capable to educate the children.

People can say that these children might not have a liking to learn, so why bother? Perhaps the children prefer to work(if there is one) to fulfill the basic needs like food and clothes. Thus, education is viewed as a luxury. There are a lot of programs where we could "sponsor" the children in their quest for education, and I propose that we join in these programs.

I'd rather think that the people are victims of the "big players" in international politics. It is important to keep this in mind when discussing this topic. The government is not the people, not even the democratic Israel.

[sanghanuman]

I don't even know where to start to begin discussing about this ... war. It's all complicated now and we can't just throw things around, blaming one party to another. Perhaps we should blame ourselves for not giving much effort to consider this war from the two(palestinian and israelian) points of view before saying "the arabs can go dig their grave now" or simply "israelis are suckers".

I agree with _earth that the issue here is how can they settle down, sharing the land together without fighting, not who should give what land to whom, and all that history crap.

The truth is that, I don't know if they can do that. While history might not be the issue right now, it certainly is the reason for all this mess, and to change/forget history is not easy. My suggestion is that, we, you and I, should stop talking about history right now and start to discuss on how can we could ameliorate the condition humbly.

Somebody talked about education (in Palestine), and I think it is a brilliant start. Although the situation there is not condusive for mass education (school bombing, raid, attacks cause schools to close), maybe education can start from home, or neighborhood. I am sure in one neighborhood there is at least one person who is capable to educate the children.

People can say that these children might not have a liking to learn, so why bother? Perhaps the children prefer to work(if there is one) to fulfill the basic needs like food and clothes. Thus, education is viewed as a luxury. There are a lot of programs where we could "sponsor" the children in their quest for education, and I propose that we join in these programs.

I'd rather think that the people are victims of the "big players" in international politics. It is important to keep this in mind when discussing this topic. The government is not the people, not even the democratic Israel.

[el_empty]

true education is paramount. but the problem is that this country/state/land/whatever is lacking a basic necessity. yes they have some water, some air, some food... they don't have sovereignty. it's like you not having a name, not knowing your parents or where you come from, you having no face. think about how humiliating it is when you are being treated as a second class human, when you are sidelined in an international agreement that is out to create a peaceful and livable world for everyone except yourself.

and ok let's put history aside. now think... you are living in this place for a while now. and then someone comes in and say his grandfather owns the land, then shove a gun barrel in your mouth and say beat it, go live elsewhere. and everyone from a thousand miles away also say his grandfather owns the land, then supply him the guns to put the barrel in your mouth.

education? yeah...

[el_empty]

true education is paramount. but the problem is that this country/state/land/whatever is lacking a basic necessity. yes they have some water, some air, some food... they don't have sovereignty. it's like you not having a name, not knowing your parents or where you come from, you having no face. think about how humiliating it is when you are being treated as a second class human, when you are sidelined in an international agreement that is out to create a peaceful and livable world for everyone except yourself.

and ok let's put history aside. now think... you are living in this place for a while now. and then someone comes in and say his grandfather owns the land, then shove a gun barrel in your mouth and say beat it, go live elsewhere. and everyone from a thousand miles away also say his grandfather owns the land, then supply him the guns to put the barrel in your mouth.

education? yeah...

[Thirdshifter]

Problem is, they are schools, Matter of facts there's universities in Palestine as well.

Unfortunatly these schools Curiculars are filled with anti-Israel, Western Propaganda.

Don't tell me you guys haven't seen the grade 3 math text book?

Instead of using Sticks as Unit, They chose to put an assault rifle.

Ever heard the Palestinian National anthem?

[Thirdshifter]

Problem is, they are schools, Matter of facts there's universities in Palestine as well.

Unfortunatly these schools Curiculars are filled with anti-Israel, Western Propaganda.

Don't tell me you guys haven't seen the grade 3 math text book?

Instead of using Sticks as Unit, They chose to put an assault rifle.

Ever heard the Palestinian National anthem?

[el_empty]

Ever heard the Palestinian National anthem?

hmmmm i wouldn't use the national anthem argument. here's the palestinian anthem (translated from arabic:)


My country, my country

My country, the land of my grand fathers

My country, my country

My country, my nation, the nation of eternity

With my determine, my fire and the volcano of my revenge

The longing of my blood to my land and home

I have climbed the mountains and fought the wars

I have conquered the impossible, and crossed the boarders

My country, my country, the nation of eternity

With the resolve of the winds and the fire of the guns

And the determination of my nation in the land of struggle

Palestine is my home, Palestine is my fire, Palestine is my revenge and the land of eternal

My country, my country, the nation of eternity

I swear under the shade of the flag

To my land and nation, and the fire of pain

I will live as a revolutionary, I will go on as revolutionary, I will expire as revolutionary until I will be back

My country, my country, the nation of eternity

(source: http://www.pac-usa.org/anthem.htm)


now here's the american national anthem:

O say can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hail'd at the twilight's last gleaming,
Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight
O'er the ramparts we watch'd were so gallantly streaming?
And the rocket's red glare, the bomb bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there,
O say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

On the shore dimly seen through the mists of the deep
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines in the stream,
'Tis the star-spangled banner - O long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash'd out their foul footstep's pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

O thus be it ever when freemen shall stand
Between their lov'd home and the war's desolation!
Blest with vict'ry and peace may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the power that hath made and preserv'd us a nation!
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto - "In God is our trust,"
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.
(source: http://americanhistory.si.edu/ssb/6_thestory/6b_osay/fs6b.html)


if read from a truly impartial viewpoint, which is the militant one?

[el_empty]

Ever heard the Palestinian National anthem?

hmmmm i wouldn't use the national anthem argument. here's the palestinian anthem (translated from arabic:)


My country, my country

My country, the land of my grand fathers

My country, my country

My country, my nation, the nation of eternity

With my determine, my fire and the volcano of my revenge

The longing of my blood to my land and home

I have climbed the mountains and fought the wars

I have conquered the impossible, and crossed the boarders

My country, my country, the nation of eternity

With the resolve of the winds and the fire of the guns

And the determination of my nation in the land of struggle

Palestine is my home, Palestine is my fire, Palestine is my revenge and the land of eternal

My country, my country, the nation of eternity

I swear under the shade of the flag

To my land and nation, and the fire of pain

I will live as a revolutionary, I will go on as revolutionary, I will expire as revolutionary until I will be back

My country, my country, the nation of eternity

(source: http://www.pac-usa.org/anthem.htm)


now here's the american national anthem:

O say can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hail'd at the twilight's last gleaming,
Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight
O'er the ramparts we watch'd were so gallantly streaming?
And the rocket's red glare, the bomb bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there,
O say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

On the shore dimly seen through the mists of the deep
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines in the stream,
'Tis the star-spangled banner - O long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash'd out their foul footstep's pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

O thus be it ever when freemen shall stand
Between their lov'd home and the war's desolation!
Blest with vict'ry and peace may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the power that hath made and preserv'd us a nation!
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto - "In God is our trust,"
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.
(source: http://americanhistory.si.edu/ssb/6_thestory/6b_osay/fs6b.html)


if read from a truly impartial viewpoint, which is the militant one?

[sanghanuman]

interesting.

[sanghanuman]

interesting.

[Thirdshifter]

The USA national anthem

Oh, say can you see,
By the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hailed
At the twilight's last gleaming,
Whose broad stripes and bright stars,
Thru the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched
Were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets red glare,
The bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night
That our flag was still there.
O, say, does that
Star-Spangled Banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free
And the home of the brave?

What you posted was the Poem written by Francis Scott Key, a 34-year old lawyer-poet. The rest of the poem was not however adopted as the national anthem. A diff. topic alltogether.

Here's what palestinians Children are made to believe should be the rightful Palestine http://www.mopa.gov.ps/

Look at the map, is that palestine living side by side with Israel?

this site may be a little biased towards Israel but it still hold some truth to some extent http://www.pmw.org.il/new/

I'm not trying to play the Blame game but just simply initiating that why the peace process isn't going through.

Is palestine being "used" by Leaders in middle east? Do they really want the conflict to end?

[Thirdshifter]

The USA national anthem

Oh, say can you see,
By the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hailed
At the twilight's last gleaming,
Whose broad stripes and bright stars,
Thru the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched
Were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets red glare,
The bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night
That our flag was still there.
O, say, does that
Star-Spangled Banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free
And the home of the brave?

What you posted was the Poem written by Francis Scott Key, a 34-year old lawyer-poet. The rest of the poem was not however adopted as the national anthem. A diff. topic alltogether.

Here's what palestinians Children are made to believe should be the rightful Palestine http://www.mopa.gov.ps/

Look at the map, is that palestine living side by side with Israel?

this site may be a little biased towards Israel but it still hold some truth to some extent http://www.pmw.org.il/new/

I'm not trying to play the Blame game but just simply initiating that why the peace process isn't going through.

Is palestine being "used" by Leaders in middle east? Do they really want the conflict to end?

[el_empty]

anthem:
oop sorry i messed up - i meant to say that it's the poem that was adapted by the anthem. in my opinion the message is still the same and clear. war. fight. revolution.

also the anthem argument can take us towards a whole new topic: the role of anthems in (ultra?)nationalism. whether it is good or bad. blablabla...


http://www.mopa.gov.ps/ :
what should we be looking for here?

maps from either countries issue: i don't think that argument can hold either. china's map does not recognize taiwan as sovereign. chinese kids are told that taiwan is a province of theirs. you don't see them bombing each other.

education material: i wonder what israeli textbooks contain?.....

[el_empty]

anthem:
oop sorry i messed up - i meant to say that it's the poem that was adapted by the anthem. in my opinion the message is still the same and clear. war. fight. revolution.

also the anthem argument can take us towards a whole new topic: the role of anthems in (ultra?)nationalism. whether it is good or bad. blablabla...


http://www.mopa.gov.ps/ :
what should we be looking for here?

maps from either countries issue: i don't think that argument can hold either. china's map does not recognize taiwan as sovereign. chinese kids are told that taiwan is a province of theirs. you don't see them bombing each other.

education material: i wonder what israeli textbooks contain?.....

[__earth]

Israel has just killed Sheikh Ahmed Yassin.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040322/ap_on_re_mi_ea/gaza_explosions&cid=540&ncid=716

[__earth]

Israel has just killed Sheikh Ahmed Yassin.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040322/ap_on_re_mi_ea/gaza_explosions&cid=540&ncid=716

[Thirdshifter]

http://www.mopa.gov.ps/ :
what should we be looking for here?

maps from either countries issue: i don't think that argument can hold either. china's map does not recognize taiwan as sovereign. chinese kids are told that taiwan is a province of theirs. you don't see them bombing each other.

.....

It obviosly means, that The palestinians are not willing to live side by side with Israel.

[Thirdshifter]

http://www.mopa.gov.ps/ :
what should we be looking for here?

maps from either countries issue: i don't think that argument can hold either. china's map does not recognize taiwan as sovereign. chinese kids are told that taiwan is a province of theirs. you don't see them bombing each other.

.....

It obviosly means, that The palestinians are not willing to live side by side with Israel.

[topdog]

Israel has just killed Sheikh Ahmed Yassin.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040322/ap_on_re_mi_ea/gaza_explosions&cid=540&ncid=716

that can't be good news, can it?

/rhetorical question.

will there ever be peace
in the middle east?

[topdog]

Israel has just killed Sheikh Ahmed Yassin.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040322/ap_on_re_mi_ea/gaza_explosions&cid=540&ncid=716

that can't be good news, can it?

/rhetorical question.

will there ever be peace
in the middle east?

[USSDefiantNX74205]

That can mean only one thing - more suicide bombing. Maybe Israel should just bomb the crap out of them terrorist organizations; Islamic Jihad, Fatah, Hamas, and whatever organizations with funny names they have. When will they ever learn that Israel has a right to exist?

[USSDefiantNX74205]

That can mean only one thing - more suicide bombing. Maybe Israel should just bomb the crap out of them terrorist organizations; Islamic Jihad, Fatah, Hamas, and whatever organizations with funny names they have. When will they ever learn that Israel has a right to exist?

[__earth]

When will they ever learn that Israel has a right to exist?

When will they ever learn that Palestine has a right to exist?

The same sentence structure, the same intonation, different subject. See the problem?

[__earth]

When will they ever learn that Israel has a right to exist?

When will they ever learn that Palestine has a right to exist?

The same sentence structure, the same intonation, different subject. See the problem?

[USSDefiantNX74205]

That is what everyone is working towards now. But them suicide bombers keep making things worse. They don't want any peace talk, peace plan, or 'roadmap' to peace, prefering instead to bomb Israel off the map by whatever means possible. No one is saying that Palestine doesn't have a right to exist, but don't you think it's time they respect each other's existence like civilized people?

I don't mean to sound pro-Israel here, but if the militant groups keep up their 'good work' of annihilating Israeli buses and bustops, there will be absolutely no hope at all for a Palestinian state to exist. Palestinians will always be painted as the bad guys who resort to violence when there are more peaceful means of action.

[USSDefiantNX74205]

That is what everyone is working towards now. But them suicide bombers keep making things worse. They don't want any peace talk, peace plan, or 'roadmap' to peace, prefering instead to bomb Israel off the map by whatever means possible. No one is saying that Palestine doesn't have a right to exist, but don't you think it's time they respect each other's existence like civilized people?

I don't mean to sound pro-Israel here, but if the militant groups keep up their 'good work' of annihilating Israeli buses and bustops, there will be absolutely no hope at all for a Palestinian state to exist. Palestinians will always be painted as the bad guys who resort to violence when there are more peaceful means of action.

[__earth]

im with you

but it always easier to say that when you are on a chair in front of the computer instead of facing the frustration of negotiating with Israel first hand while the bullets are flying and the bombs are falling.

actually back during the clinton years, there was almost peace but Israel offer was anything but sufficient. of course, you could say the PLO was impossible, depending on which side of the fence you stand.

the question is, what do you do when negotiations fail you each time you try it?

keep trying? judging from the news that is being fed to us, I think some of the palestinians are tired of it.

of course, we, the couch quarterbacks, could always say "negotiate! negotiate!"

[__earth]

im with you

but it always easier to say that when you are on a chair in front of the computer instead of facing the frustration of negotiating with Israel first hand while the bullets are flying and the bombs are falling.

actually back during the clinton years, there was almost peace but Israel offer was anything but sufficient. of course, you could say the PLO was impossible, depending on which side of the fence you stand.

the question is, what do you do when negotiations fail you each time you try it?

keep trying? judging from the news that is being fed to us, I think some of the palestinians are tired of it.

of course, we, the couch quarterbacks, could always say "negotiate! negotiate!"

[wawa]

How very true, earth. Although we condemn the suicide bombers, its understandable why these people resort to these measure. (not agree. but realize what drives people to such extemes.)

I-P has been fighting for decades and unlike the people in Israel, many palestinians live in refugee camps and live under the proverty line. Many of these people have never seen a day of peace in their life, so its understandable that they resort to the mean they have known all their life--fight. In fact, their sole survival has always been a fight. Also, being a poor country, they don't have the military means like Israel to just tank and helicopter around. These are people who have been driven to desperation to show their dissatisfaction, not minding losing their own lives. I once read a scientific study that revealed that more than half of the children have seen a relative die in front of them.
With such traumatised lives.... 8O

Unless the living conditions in Palestine is improved and that the people are shown that there is life in peace, I don't think any plan will work. These people gotta be 'reeducated' that war is not a way of life (I think its kinda hard for them, since that's the only way of living they know) :wink:

[wawa]

How very true, earth. Although we condemn the suicide bombers, its understandable why these people resort to these measure. (not agree. but realize what drives people to such extemes.)

I-P has been fighting for decades and unlike the people in Israel, many palestinians live in refugee camps and live under the proverty line. Many of these people have never seen a day of peace in their life, so its understandable that they resort to the mean they have known all their life--fight. In fact, their sole survival has always been a fight. Also, being a poor country, they don't have the military means like Israel to just tank and helicopter around. These are people who have been driven to desperation to show their dissatisfaction, not minding losing their own lives. I once read a scientific study that revealed that more than half of the children have seen a relative die in front of them.
With such traumatised lives.... 8O

Unless the living conditions in Palestine is improved and that the people are shown that there is life in peace, I don't think any plan will work. These people gotta be 'reeducated' that war is not a way of life (I think its kinda hard for them, since that's the only way of living they know) :wink: