Transportation System in Malaysia

[chenchow]

New Straits Times has just done a special report on our transportation system. I have added both the news in the news section.

What do you guys think about it?

[masterof_none]

I think the transportation,like anything else, such as great buildings, is just another hocus-pocus from government to make the country looks great. If it turned out to be a mess and make it harder for people, it would be a waste of resources. Sooner, KL would be the next LA.


It's a waste of time arguing big projects that alread has already been done, but it could be the lesson for the future.

[bachok83]

but, dont you guys think that government wants "the outside world" to respect Malaysia as one develop country..

i all the 'mess' you said just now as a risk.. without risks, we wont success...

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[masterof_none]

We usually should respect ourselves before expecting other people to respect us.

[masterof_none]

but government effort to give the people the best tech. around for public transportation ( monorail, LRT , etc) is good, nonetheless.

[chenchow]

While I think the LRT etc are good, as NST says, it is the interconnection between all the systems. And I think there should only be one common ticket and even with Touch n Go, people pay a few times and it should not be the case.

But I think the bus service etc left much to be desired. There should be a lot of changes and improvements on that matter..

[qedx]

isnt the rail system run by 2-3 different companies? its probably easier for them to make people pay separately for their tix rather than making people pay 1 time and then dividing it up later.

[littlebigone]

easier and more profitable for them i guess. But i agree with Chen Chow. I think there should be some way we could get monthly passes of some kind. This would definitely make public transportation more attractive

[qedx]

of course there is the option of making everything free or making everything state sponsored ie use tax money. that should mean a tax raise. sure there would be some who will complain, but think of it this way: you're paying an annual fee to use public transport. if you dont use it then too bad for you isnt it?

[chenchow]

While I agree that it is much more profitable if someone needs to buy a ticket for each LRT rida, but if we are looking at economic of scales, more people would take LRT if it is cheaper and more convenient. So, I would be more pro towards building an integrated system.

[WilliamLee]

In my opinion, a transportation network for a city is like an artery for our body. Good transportation network/system is essential to promote good business and also to minimize wastage of fuel and commuter's time.

I feel that Malaysia has a lot to improve on. I am happy that efforts have been made to integrade the public transportation system in KL. I hope other cities would begin to adopt it. However it is all in the mindset of the people. If a public transportation system is effective, people will be more willing to adopt the concept of mass transit.

For the case of Penang, I heard that Intel is not keen to expand operations because the traffic gridlock has reduced the business productivity there. As a result, they are considering other places.

[chenchow]

Recently, there is a report on the integration of our Klang Valley Transportation, which includes the PUTRA, Star LRT, Intrakota and Park May. It seems to me a very good integration process, where travelers would not need to buy numerous fare tickets to go from place to place, but i think the integration should further include the KTM Kommuter and KL Monorail at the very least...

The articles are available in the Menu >> Archive >> October section.

[Diesel]

In terms of transportation, I think we are still very poor.
Look at our roads. Dont tell me they are not confusing. We build a lot of highways, yet, it's expensive for daily commuters. We build LRTs, we can't cover the cost to run it. We let big corporation monopolize the bus network, they lost a lot of money day after day. The same thing goes to MAS. I think the only one we can rely on is Air Asia.

We surely have a lot to do with our transportation.

[littlebigone]

of course there is the option of making everything free or making everything state sponsored ie use tax money. that should mean a tax raise. sure there would be some who will complain, but think of it this way: you're paying an annual fee to use public transport. if you dont use it then too bad for you isnt it?


can't believe that i missed this. It's a brilliant idea. Maybe not totally free but practically, if a high percentage of the public transportation fees were subsidized by the state, hmmm....you never know

[Thirdshifter]

I would not be a happy camper if the goverment started to subsidising transportation. Anyway i don't think the goverment could afford it anyway. Remember it is Malaysia not Kuala Lumpur.

How many of you had been to the east coast of Malaysia? I had and boy i wished there was a highway. It's a shame that the federal goverment had never contructed a highway A-la PLUS to the east coast.

How many had seen roads in Pahang? Sabah and sarawak. We don't need any stinky LRT, we not all live in the urbans. We need Highways. There should be at least a highway that is accessible to almost eveyone in the radius of 30 kilometre. If Malaysia wants to have a project this is it. Interstate Highways.

To economy this highway would generate would be tremendous. I am sure some had though about this but i guess building a brand spanking new fancy administration capital with some of the most expensive architecture in Putrajaya would somehow be more beneficial.

It's all about highways.

[chenchow]

One point that attracted me would be that Malaysians demand first-class living, but are only willing to pay third-class prices....it is an unspoken truth behind the scene....

I agree that east coast, or for that matter, east malaysia, needs a lot of development to catch up with the west coast..I think there is a plan to build a highway connecting pahang to Terengganu and Kelantan, but it is still having problem, due to politics...

I am quite sure that everyone of us who have been using PLUS, can see its conveniences, although we may need to part with quite some sum, but guess that's what we need to use first class facilities under privatization... i applaud the initiative to widen PLUS into 3-lane each side from Ipoh to Ayer Keroh(Malacca)...that would reduce the traffic jams...

[masterof_none]

That new freeway (will ) barely cross my bathroom back home.

[Diesel]

i think things such as road and highways are basic needs of people. and it should be provided for free. dont tell me the country can't afford it. they can afford multi-billion dollar projects, ie Putrajaya etc.

[chenchow]

In fact, I think Putrajaya project do help Malaysia save a lot in terms of indirect saving...Without Putrajaya, all the government agencies and offices would be in KL. Currently, with many of those ministries and government agencies shifted to Putrajaya, there is still a lot of traffic jam...what if we add those 100,000 people who are currently working in Putrajaya, to be located in KL? Plus, there are many who go to government department etc, it would create a lot of extra traffic for the city.... Plus parking wise, in Putrajaya, parking is easy, and there is no traffic jam at all...

Many developed cities like US (Washington), Australia (Canberra) etc...are purposely built for administrative city...

In fact, our country is trying to improve basic infrastructure throughout the country. There would be double track railway in a few years' time and train would go past every hour then, instead of every few hours now.... but they need to do a lot of flyover, or else people's time would be greatly wasted...the good side would be the fast train at 160 km/h would allow us to go from Penang to KL in 2.5 hours and about the same time from JB to KL.

In fact, the North South Highway costs about $10 billion and that's like in 1990, if today, with the inflation etc, it would probably cost about $20 - 25 billion....remember when the idea of building North South Highway, people were complaining that those small towns would be affected, as now travellers do not pass by there and there is no more revenue generator, like travelers stop by for food etc...

So, there is pros and cons.

[masterof_none]

i think things such as road and highways are basic needs of people. and it should be provided for free. dont tell me the country can't afford it. they can afford multi-billion dollar projects, ie Putrajaya etc.


The Governement has thrown away so much free stuff, free education is the most obvious. Very few government would spend billions of dollars for education, sending kids around the world. I'm one of those kids.
Plus, Govt build facilities and stuff, for the people.Free text books in high school (even free pencils and pens).

Malaysians usually want free stuff. Everything must be free.

If the government charge for something, they'll point the fingers back to the government.

I agree that Putrajaya looks like a luxurious admin for government, but, we should not think "govt should provide this and that".
Toll booth is everywhere in the country. If we don't want to pay toll, we should move from KL to somewhere else, like Pahang or something.

Just like , if you don;t want to pay toll in Chicago, you should come to LA (LA's toll free! )

To avoid Toll booth, Malaysian should develop a small helicopter for working class people (or sth similar to a flying car used by Han Solo in Star Wars). When we can get around with things, Government
would be amazed. Then only they know how smart we are.

[Thirdshifter]

master of none, I'm not surprised. Since some of the money that sent you to school in LA came from my pocket, I somehow hope you'll realize the money that we demand be spent wisely is not theirs.. but Malaysians.

Oneday when you start to pay this enourmous amout of tax (all price for goods in Malysia have the tax built in) you'll realize how easily and stupidily its being spent.

[masterof_none]

I admit that.

I think the issue here is the megaprojects, not on the spending on human capital for training, etc.

Unless you think that money that you pay for the tax that finance the students inside and outside the country is 'stupidily' invested, then ,
we should spend on something else.

[chenchow]

On spending, it depends on how we look at it... Taxpayers have been paying quite a large sum and it has been spent on various purposes. It is a well-known fact that money, in whereever in the world, is not spent most optimumly. As I do not know about the true figure, I am not sure how many percentage of money spent by our government is truly beneficial to rakyat....

In terms of investment in education, we should make sure that everyone that is sponsored, do their studies well and learn as much as possible. It is a very sad note, especially to see our education funding not used well. We know about the laptop project for schools in Malaysia. It is a sad note to see so many laptops got stolen..isn't it sad? Who did that? Why there are Malaysians who broke into schools to steal laptops that were used for our younger generation's learning?

[Thirdshifter]

Unless you think that money that you pay for the tax that finance the students inside and outside the country is 'stupidily' invested, then ,
we should spend on something else.

Nope i don't think money spent on education or building homes for the poorest is the problem. I am talking about impratical spending. For example, A fancy bridge. Here's the picture i took last may http://pages.cthome.net/mudasir/DSCF0123.jpg

this is what i'm talking about.

[masterof_none]

what's this? Sydney bridge or something?

Why Sydney bridge is in PUtrajaya?

[littlebigone]

Maybe foreign investors seeing such a beautiful bridge would be more inclined to invest in Malaysia.

I have a question, does anyone have facts or opinions on whether the benefits of govt spending are well distributed or do the benefits focus on a certain group only. I know it's probably hard to be well distributed but is the spending really biased towards a certain trend?

[chenchow]

I think Malaysians have a tendency to like things look beautiful....Whenever the government builds something, or even private sector for that matter, if it looks nice, then it is overspending; if it looks bad, then it is the fault of the builder....So, where is the center point lies?

I am not sure about the particular bridge over there, but sometimes some overhead bridges are sponsored by corporate bodies, like this one Bridge by Citibank (http://penangturfclub.com/penang/misc/bridge.html) .

[littlebigone]

we're discussing wastage or misallocation of govt expenditure, I fail to see how citibank building a bridge has to do with the issue. Just because some corporate company does it doesn't condone poor budgeting by the govt

[masterof_none]

I found this is the irony.

To make the country looks good, govt has to spend. But , Malaysian people don't see why we need such things. And we think this is misappropriation of public money.


But , at the same time, it build investors confidence. It brings a lot of money from outside come to Malaysia. In fact, Malaysian economy is so dependant on FDI that we couldn't afford losing it. And, thus, from what I know, we have larger current acct deficit than the capital account

This FDI is important. It build Malaysian economy. It generates income, and of course, you can throw a bunch of economic theories that support this idea.

It also symbolize a stable country, politically, socially , and economically.
These symbols, from our point of view, seems ridiculuos. But not for investors.

Plus, it attract tourists. So, money gain from tourism is not a little, it is among the biggest contributor to Malaysian GDP.

These megaprojects, whether we realize it or not,also being done during the financial crisis (1997) , well, around that time, before, commonwealth games. So, megaprojects, whether coincidence or not, contribute a lot in economic recovery in 1997.

Overall, megaprojects make economic sense. Maybe not in the eyes of the Malaysian people, but for the Malaysian economy overall.

It symbolize the strong Malaysia. People are amazed with a strong country. Strong country build upon strong political foundation.
Strong political foundation is the basis for strong economy.

[CrAzyCow]

It is true tht the government is spending money to build beautiful transportation infrastructures to attract foreign investments into the country. As for tourism, i think tht is a more like a bonus to the country. I do not agree tht tourism shud play a big role in a country's economic wealth. If an outbreak were to occur within the region such as SARS, the tourism industry will definately suffer major losses even though u might hav the most beautiful city in the world.

Instead, spend sufficient money to provide a realiable n efficient transportation system tht will not only benefit investors, but to the ppl as well. A good example will be the LRT in KL. Personally, the idea to build LRT in KL is a great idea. It reduces congestions but still able to get ppl from point A to point B in a short time. Sometimes, it is not fair to say tht the fair is expensive since this kind of transportation needs money to stay operational. We can't expect everything to be free rite?

It is alwiz the case in our country that we are able to initiate an idea, but it can never last long enuff to see it's potential (if there is). Anybody can build but the question is wether we are able to maintain it or not?

Basically, my whole point is anything we built/do might not need to be extremely beautiful or physically seen as the best in the world. More important is how well we are able to provide it's best functionality to the ppl n to the country.

[littlebigone]

good point crazy...speaking of maintaining, i know this is off topic...but what happened to Rakan Muda.

I think to encourage more people to use LRT, govt should increase taxes for things that have to do with motor vehicles, petrol, toll, er...spare parts, road tax, etc. Then use the extra money to subsidize fees for the LRT.

[taufiq]

How do you think US can educate their people
to respect others especially pejalan kaki?

[chenchow]

crazycow gives a number of good points...

A reliable transportation system is very essential. Just look back at 10 years ago, could you get from Bukit Bintang to KLCC within minutes, unless you use taxi.. You could do so now, with Putra, Star, KL Monorail, ERL, KTM Kommuter... Although it is far from perfect, but it is a pretty good starting point... I'm sure some of you know about the North East Line of Singapore MRT that it is so unprofitable that they have to close certain stations for that to cut cost.

We could see that the government is doing its best to integrate the transportation system. Now at KL Sentral, Putra, KL Monorail, ERL, KTM Kommuter are all stationed there and only STAR is excluded. It is projected that by 2005, with the integration process readied, we only need to buy one ticket and it is transferrable to Intrakota bus as well.

On our bus service, I think we could agree that our Transnational service is not inferior to Greyhound service over here in US, right?

Yeah, the maintenance issue is there and Pak Lah has committed to solve it. Pak Lah's observation is that Malaysia has "first-class infrastructure, but third-class maintenance". It is sad that we see our younger generations vandalize public phone, public toilet, practically anything public...........

yaa...but monorail is like crazy, n slow..n so funny..anyway, feels like naik rollercoaster..haha :lol:

[taufiq]

Some comment i read somewhere
was saying that it is the first time
they come to a place
where there are 3 companies
operating 3 different train/railing system
at a place
and we have to walk far to move
between the different system
(and it's a negative comment actually)

i wonder what other would say?

[chenchow]

mainly it was built separately as none of the company has experience building one and the cost is too high, each system cost a few billion. But check out the articles in the archive, everything is owned by same company now and it is in the integration process.....by 2005, it would be ONE system..

[Vallhalla]

Its all about not planning ahead ... that is why the public transport in Malaysia such as LRT and such are not systematically build. In Germany , there are a lot of different companies running public transport at different cities, but they have guidelines so that the services reach a certain standard .. every thing here must have this standard ,like ISO , they call it here DIN (which stands for Deutsche Industry Norm) anything here have this DIN.. you should read about this stuff.. hehehe ,and Germany is considered as a country which offers one of the best transportation system in the world.. it?s not hard to see why..

One of the reason the quality of the transportation system in Malaysia is not so good is because the companies that are responsible for the projects take unreasonably enormous profit .They use a small portion of the budget, buying material that is not so good in quality ,and took the rest of the money.. There are too much corruption and profit making scums in Malaysia .. ..That is what i think.. Much to be said .. and i will write more of my opinion on this later.. . maybe i?ll write a report or something about this.. hehehe

[chenchow]

Valhalla, about corruption, check the news article I posted yesterday. Pak Lah would like to eradicate all those, so send those to that email, although it is titled reducing red tape, as often, red tape causes people to take corruption.

I agree that the planning was not done properly in the initial stage. May be we were too excited to catch up and it is a costly learning process, but I believe all is not lost. Although our transportation system does not work completely, I think we have a fairly good transportation. If you look at transnational on its own, i could say that it is better than Greyhound in US. Do anyone agree or disagree with me on this?

If we look particularly at STAR, PUTRA,... the comfortness, punctuality, frequency etc are not far behind those top notch Subway, Metro, MRT that we find elsewhere, or even sometimes, it could be better in certain aspects.

So, I am really looking forward to the integration of our transportation system and build it up. A lot is needed to be done, but I think we could safely say that we are better off compared to 1990, when then, we do not even have KTM Komuter, Putra, STAR, KL Monoraiil, ERL, ETL...

[masterof_none]

..

One of the reason the quality of the transportation system in Malaysia is not so good is because the companies that are responsible for the projects take unreasonably enormous profit .

I hope you can elaborate more on this. Interesting point.

I think LRT is still pretty cheap. from Sunway, to KL is pretty easy and cheap. Except, you have to take feeder bus, which is very incovenient. (But I'm not sure now..)

There are 2 arguments:
1. You add more space when it's needed (or investing more when the it reaches full capacity/employment) .

2. You build huge space, so that you can benefit from the lower price.
Because, in general, price would increase due to inflation.

So, as some of you would probably agree, government build premises, facilites in KL based on the second argument. If we go to KLIA, or any LRT station,or KL Sentral (at least 3 years ago, when I was there), it was like a ghost place. Nobody there. This is because they want to save money (to avoid inflation).

On the other hand, we sacrificed the current resources. we don't use it efficiently (push it into full capacity). That's why we see some of the station are so empty that we think this is just a waste of resources.

well, it depends.

Now , the dilemma is: If we're all using public transport, who's going to buy the national car?.who depend heavily on local market. Who's gonna buy Wira, Iswara, Kancil?

There are many solutions:
1. Push Proton/Kancil market somewhere else agressively.Compete with Toyota, VW , Audi, etc.
2. Set the Consumer Standard, like Germany's code (according to Varhalla). It may not be integrated into single corporation, as long as it satisfies the standard.
3. Increase the capacity. Idle resources couldn't be wasted. Try to reach full employment as soon as possible.

That way, transportation could be enhanced. No matter how many public transportation running, as long as it has the same protocol, it should be OK. It's like , you're using Internet Explorer, I'm using Safari, the other guy using Mozilla Firebird to browse ReCom site.
we're all browsing the same page. But the design of the windows, browser's features, (such as the way you organize downloads, bookmarks ) are somewhat different. That's where they should compete.
because in free market, competition drive the best result

[CrAzyCow]

Is true that the ocal car producers will not have a good market if public transportation is efficient n well developed. But i dun think tht is a big problem though. Coz, as long as the car is cheap, and realiable it shudn't hav problem. Majority of the society is still average income ppl.. therefore, to buy BMW or Mercedes or perhaps toyota cars are still pretty expensive for them.

Aside from tht, we need to look at the big picture as well. The main focus is also to attract more foreign investment into the country n to retain the current investment.

An empty station doesn't mean it does not produce money. It is simply there to attract ppl to use LRT more coz the more location u stop, the more convinient for ppl to get around.

Anyways, KL's next plan is to get it's irrigation system work done. Really sad to hear tht flash flood can still occur in KL..

[chenchow]

besides the more stops for LRT, I think it is also more convenient for people and also because of social needs. A lot of time, if we do not regulate the bus services, only profitable routes would be served. Then there would be no non-profitable routes and in reality, those non-profitable routes are the one that need public transportation the most.
It is a concept of cross-subsidy, which happens in many places.

About the irrigation problem, i think we could blame it on improper planning and to rectify the problem, we would need to spend billions of ringgit. The government is currently building massive tunnel in Klang Valley and when it is not flooding, the tunnel would be used as road, whereas when it rains heavily, it would be water catchment area or jumbo drain. It would be toll-free, but by driving into it, the driver consents that if any floods happen, he has to leave his car in it and just rescue himself. The government has no liability of the car.

Do you guys think that this concept is workable? Is it good?

[Schye]

Well, basically there are 2 main factors when choosing the location of station :

(1) An already developed places where there will be a lot of passengers/users
(2) A place which have the potential to be developed

For example, Japan (hhe, sorry for using Japan as an ex. again)
Most of the train (let it be LRT of Commuter etc) station are located at the centre of the city. BUT it is not because of (1) but because of (2).It is the same as the highway we have. Places where highway can reach will be the developed. The best way to prove this is to compare the value of the land around the station or highway. The station maybe empty for the time being but I am sure those station are strategic spots.

Another reason that there are empty stations is some of the station is because of social need like what Chenchow has said. There maybe housing area where the stations will mostly being used before or after office hours.

Lets give them more time as Malaysia is still DEVELOPING

look at some of the STAR LRT stations in malaysia, totally deserted. sometimes there's not even a passenger there. weird huh? membazir only.... dohhh :roll:

[__earth]

look at some of the STAR LRT stations in malaysia, totally deserted. sometimes there's not even a passenger there. weird huh? membazir only.... dohhh :roll:

I disagree.
Cmon, if the govt didn't build the "deserted station" the ppl will complaint "LRT aje lebih tapi station tak de"
In my opinion, it's better to have extra of something than to suffer lack of something. It's not wasteful.
Btw, the deserted stations were built in order to accomodate future volume. =)

[chenchow]

I would say that the drive of supply and demand would boost the land value of SChye suggested and may be those developers would take advantage of the availability of an area with LRT station and very few housing or industry over there. It would be a fantastic growth area. That area has a good connectivity with the LRT system and yet no one jumps in to develop?

[Thirdshifter]

Who cares about LRT? Star, Monorail? friggin KTM kumuters and the latest KLIA Express? I don't.

Remember that KL does not represent Malaysia. How many of you guys live in Penang? Kota Kinabalu? Kuala Terengannu? Ipoh?

The fact that all of Malaysian Resources is being wasted devoloping KL and leaving areas such as kelantan, terengganu, Pahang, Perlis, Kedah, Perak, Sabah, Sarawak highly under developed is not fair.

If any of you haven''t noticed. It takes approximately 10 hours(that including driving behind slow trucks) to get to Kuala Terengganu from KL because there's no Highway.

I'm sorry but Malaysian transportation is one of the worst i've had dealt with.

[__earth]

i think u're wrong. The other parts of msia is not as dense as KL.
as for kelantan and terengganu, i've heard some company, most likely
Propel is building a highway.

it's like alaska. u dont see the fed developing alaska as much as they r developing some other parts of the us.

i mean, surely there is no sense to build LRT in kota bahru went the population is like, zilch.

[Thirdshifter]

If your saying kelantan terengannu and pahang is the equivalent of Alaska to US then i have to tell you to look again.

Talking about population density, Penang could probably use some new roads. Some of the roads are horibbily paved and ofcourse that's not even downtown georgetown yet.

Ferries from butterworth 3 every 15 minutes. Jambatan Pulau pinang traffic crawling almost 24/7 except on sunday mornings.

[chenchow]

Yeah, Penang especially deserve a newer and more complex public transport system. Do you guys think that Outer Ring Road in Penang is good? There has been plan about it for so long, but it has never been able to get started, due to the roads must go through somewhere and Penang was developed without much planning, so now this new ring road, where should it pass by? We want it to pass by at convenient places, so that many could use, yet no one is willing for the road to pass by through their land?

Penang is building its LRT soon... Aside from that, I think the mini bus system should be revamped. Buses should ply their routes more frequently and more importantly consistently...

[CrAzyCow]

Perhaps tht KL is our capital city might ring a bell? Tht's why we have massive development in our capital city. Not to mention Putrajaya is also close to KL.

Penang is a nice state. Very dense n lots of good food. N i agree tht LRT should be built in Penang to ease traffic congestion. However, this kind of development would require lots of money n long term planning. So, let's not jump into conclusion too soon ya.

As for the rest of the state, well, they might not need LRT to provide the necessary transportation. The state has too improve it's own transportation problems n stop relying so much on the federal government to pump in money to build new and better infrastructures. Sometimes is not the infrastucture problems but rather the service efficiency.

[Thirdshifter]

Perhaps tht KL is our capital city might ring a bell? Tht's why we have massive development in our capital city. Not to mention Putrajaya is also close to KL.

Penang is a nice state. Very dense n lots of good food. N i agree tht LRT should be built in Penang to ease traffic congestion. However, this kind of development would require lots of money n long term planning. So, let's not jump into conclusion too soon ya.

As for the rest of the state, well, they might not need LRT to provide the necessary transportation. The state has too improve it's own transportation problems n stop relying so much on the federal government to pump in money to build new and better infrastructures. Sometimes is not the infrastucture problems but rather the service efficiency.

I have no idea where you have been hiding at. Time to get out. The federal Goverment collects its money from all states and SHOULD disturbute it evenly to it needs. Whats happening is.. some states are left behind and the state goverment is under funded. The federal Goverment is not granting money to states evenly.

Remember even if KL is the capital.. it doesnt mean KL should get everything. Because AFAIK KL is not where Malaysia generates its economy from. Without other states deveolping KL would die fast.

[CrAzyCow]

Perhaps u are not looking the way i see it. Let me try to clarify things n perhaps u will agree to it to some point.

Current population in KL is 1.4 million ppl and the next most populated state is JB with half the number. For example, if the government distributes the money evenly, lets say each state receives 14 million ringgit, this would mean tht the government is spending 5 ringgit on each individual in KL and 10 ringgit on each individual in JB. Personally, i think more money is needed in KL than in JB since KL has a bigger population. We have to be realistic here. As much as we want all states to have equal funds, but money is limited n we need to spend it wisely. Each state is allocated with a sum of money n the federal government expect this money to be used to develop their own state with the stipulated money.

Furthermore, ask ur white frens hav they heard of M'sia. Majority will say they know/have been to the capital city a.k.a KL. This is the reason why i said KL needs more money to develop than other states. Of course we do not see big industries in KL but it is the center where information and investments comes in. It is also a symbol of the country. It represents the country.

I agree with ur point tht although KL is the capital, other states should not be ignored since they generate income as well.. I guess the government is developing the country stages by stages. Hopefully...hopefully.

N btw, i am hiding in Ann Arbor. :) n yes, i can't wait to get out of this place. Hopefully u see the point i am getting across. :D

[Thirdshifter]

I had live in US for a long time and believe it or not Georgetown seems to be more popular then KL.

I still don't understand your logic about federal goverment expenditure. For example, Kuala Kerteh,TG generates about 1.2 billion Dollar a year in revenue and sadly the only highway you would see in TG is the one in front of the Oil Refineries there, thats it.

Miri, Sarawak who generates about 4 times the Money of Kuala kerteh And sarawak which is the number one destination for tourism in Malaysia generates more money then any other states.

What have KL done for Malaysia other then being a Business and Administration Capital of Malaysia? Nothing. I would guestimate that that The federal Goverment spend about 55-65% of the whole Income it has on the city+putrajaya.

How can we all just say, oh! thats for the future of Malaysia plan ahead etc when there's still Makcik, Pakcik, Nyonya, Ama Apek around the Nation that makes 200 ringgit a month and take cares of 5 children in the family and also happens to work in the underpaid Sector, Agriculture? Which also happens to be one of the biggest contributer to Malaysian Income every year?

And yet all of us here are enjoying blissfully, living under a Ignorant Goverment.

[CrAzyCow]

Most ppl over here hear more of KL than any other states. Anyways, tht's not the point.

I am not saying tht ur ideas are wrong n i am right over here. In ur example, Kuala Kerteh generates 1.2 billion dollar annually. Well, tht's good. So does this means we have to build state-of-the-art transportation system n more highways when the total population within that area is 1000 ppl? Does it seem sensible to u?

N about makcik,pakcik etc getting 200 ringgit n supporting 5 children. I dun think the government is obliged to put them into better working sectors. It is the future for the generations to come n the goal is with this new generations, the older generations will benefit from it as well. We are looking at 10-20yrs to come. Which means, we are the future generations.

Each state of course deserve to be developed. Currently we are looking at the development of Putrajaya n within KL which personally i think is a wise investement because of the Multimedia Super Corridor that created alot of job opportunities. On the other hand, Penang has attracted foreign investment as well because of the Silicon Valley. So they will hav their chance to develop provided the state itself have decided where n how it is goin to be done.

Anyways, we have digress quite abit from our transportation topic. :) Sorry guys n gals. As i said b4, hopefully the government is spending the money wisely..

n Thirdshifter, sorry if i sound offensive.. this topic just gets more n more exciting. Dun take it personally ya.

[Thirdshifter]

By all mean what i was trying to imply from all of my examples were, KL is the only spot in the Peninsula that are getting better transportation every year and.. all of them are funded directly by the goverment. That all i wanted to say.

You argue that building a highway for 1000 people is not worth it, I'm not sure if Highway is built for people surounding a highway or people that are moving past it.

Instead of building state of the art Airport in KL with state of the art Transit To the the state of te Art KL sentral, we couldve put all that money and built a State of the art Highway system connecting perlis to Johor to kelantan and almost to ever small tiny village there is in Malaysia.

Build a highway crossing sarawak to Sabah.

In you want to call anything future investment i must say that is.

Population do not decrease. Cost of Heavy-duty Labour like buulding highways only get more expensive every year. Yet here we are trying to defend the significant of a Beautiful airport that only gets 35-/+ Million passenger every year and cost more to maintain and run then having a profit.

[__earth]

I had live in US for a long time and believe it or not Georgetown seems to be more popular then KL.

Are you sure? Some of us have been in the US for quite a long time too and I'm sure KL is better known outside South East Asia,


I still don't understand your logic about federal goverment expenditure. For example, Kuala Kerteh,TG generates about 1.2 billion Dollar a year in revenue and sadly the only highway you would see in TG is the one in front of the Oil Refineries there, thats it.

Miri, Sarawak who generates about 4 times the Money of Kuala kerteh And sarawak which is the number one destination for tourism in Malaysia generates more money then any other states.


Again, here, density is the factor. If we use your logic, then Russia should be developing Siberia instead of Moscow or St. Peterburg.

Instead of building state of the art Airport in KL with state of the art Transit To the the state of te Art KL sentral, we couldve put all that money and built a State of the art Highway system connecting perlis to Johor to kelantan and almost to ever small tiny village there is in Malaysia.

The airport is the gateway into the country. If there is no airport, then foreign investment won't really come in as much as if a sufficient capacity airport were available.

What why do you need an highway connecting like kota bahru with say, some kampung nearby?

Anyway, like i said earlier, somebody is building some highway through terengganu and up to kelantan.

Population do not decrease. Cost of Heavy-duty Labour like buulding highways only get more expensive every year. Yet here we are trying to defend the significant of a Beautiful airport that only gets 35-/+ Million passenger every year and cost more to maintain and run then having a profit.

true, but you need to realize how the pop. grow. some part of msia, the pop grows at a much larger rate than some other part, say pahang or perlis or terengganu or kelantan.

[Thirdshifter]

Its not the matter of devoping the country side, Its Brigging them better transportation. Even the whole Siberia is linked with a good transportation. But considering Siberia is nothing like Kelantan or terengannu. I can assume building a nice 2 lanes highway to all this state is not a big deal, eh?

Also Georgetown in My experience is well knowned because of the fact is mentioned more in history books then Kualu lumpur is.

[__earth]

Its not the matter of devoping the country side, Its Brigging them better transportation. Even the whole Siberia is linked with a good transportation. But considering Siberia is nothing like Kelantan or terengannu. I can assume building a nice 2 lanes highway to all this state is not a big deal, eh?

Also Georgetown in My experience is well knowned because of the fact is mentioned more in history books then Kualu lumpur is.

history book? do you think most people read about malaysia's history with such detail?

and about siberia, could you name me any big city in siberia? and how sure are you about siberia being equipt with "good transportation"?
the only thing that i know about siberia's transportation is that there's one railway line crossing from the east to the west and a few highways.
there's nothing else that i'm aware of unless Russia has recovered from the fall of USSR.

[Thirdshifter]

history book? do you think most people read about malaysia's history with such detail?. Nobody reads the history of Malaysia. But history of Asia. Georgetown was one of the fewest largest cities of its era.

and about siberia, could you name me any big city in siberia? and how sure are you about siberia being equipt with "good transportation"?
the only thing that i know about siberia's transportation is that there's one railway line crossing from the east to the west and a few highways.
there's nothing else that i'm aware of unless Russia has recovered from the fall of USSR.

That's the Point, If Russia could have a railroad laid on the ground for supposedly some reason i'm sure it's useful for some of the folk living in the desert where nothing else is there. So that's great.

For Malaysia on the other had it's totally different. Comparing siberia or Alaska to Pahang, Terengganu and Kelantan or Sabah Serawak is like orange and apples. I'm very sure that 3 million People in Pahang wouldn't mind a highway. 1.2 million people that live in Kelantan would probably love the idea too.

Or do we only need good transportation for the 4 million people living in the KL metropolitian (KL-Klang-Shah Alam-PJ-Ampang-Subang Jaya-Selayang Baru) ?

[Thirdshifter]

Anyway, like i said earlier, somebody is building some highway through terengganu and up to kelantan.

I'm nit sure whether you heard it or not. The plan was to built a highway from temerloh to Kota bahru in 1999/00 and expected complition was next year. Of course that project was put to hold as a tool of torturing the people of this 3 states. Because BN doidn't win the election, what a pile of crap is that?

[__earth]

Dood, about siberia, you need to check geography. You are assuming too much. Siberia is a huge region and is served with only one railway line.

but then the reason why i bring up siberia is because of your argument:
For example, Kuala Kerteh,TG generates about 1.2 billion Dollar a year in revenue and sadly the only highway you would see in TG is the one in front of the Oil Refineries there, thats it.

Miri, Sarawak who generates about 4 times the Money of Kuala kerteh And sarawak which is the number one destination for tourism in Malaysia generates more money then any other states.


siberia is rich with mineral but development is low. same situation like the east malaysia. even the developemtnt in KL was halted.

about georgetown, im curious what era are you talking about?
for your info, here in the US, where you talk about asian history, only two empires are really talk about - Siam and Burma. Malacca was only briefly mentioned in most history courses.

plus, karak is in pahang and karak highway has already been regarded as one the best highway in asia, i donno whether that is merely some propaganda. but you could check that.

and finally, im not against development the eastern states but you need to understand why the western part of msia receives more attention. it all come back to one factor - pop. density

also, about the planned highway, i think you forgot about what happened from 1997 to 2001.

[Thirdshifter]

also, about the planned highway, i think you forgot about what happened from 1997 to 2001.

yup i totally forgot the goverment was too busy building putrajaya. Also Pahang, Tgnnu and kelantan is not as unpopulated as siberia is (person/sqmile)

Anyway i'm sure These palce would get a good road eventually but its the matter of how long does these poor people have to wait.

[joseph173]

Anyone here notice the recent news of

Malaysian PM says no plans to review controversial rail project

http://quickstart.clari.net/qs_se/webnews/wed/dc/Qmalaysia-india-rail.RJlG_DNA.html

http://adib.typepad.com/blog/2003/10/rm145_billions_.html

The main issues:
1) Bidding in the interest of fair play
2) The contract was done without public bidding.
3) Decision making lack of monitor. ( who knows, we know after it was announce)
4) No doubt it affects our palm oil export.
5) Foreign relationship is threathen.

Final question: Who knows?????????????
WHO SEE WHAT IS BEHIND THE SCENE ???


If we don't care about ourselves nobody will care.
This rail project has reflected the situation in malaysia.
After all only two groups of people benefit. One is the rulling side and the contractor who was awarded the contract. The other is the opposition who use this issue to make issue for themselves.
Eventually we are the one who is going to pay.

[chenchow]

thanks to joseph173 for bringing up this issue

I think this issue is a very complex issue...

First, the Ircon and China Railway consortium had a high price of $42 billion, which was eventually slashed to about RM19 billion. Gamuda and MMC came up with RM14.5 billion. What choice should the government made?

If the government chose Ircon and China Railway, what would Malaysians be saying? --- Wasting money, not believing in the capability of Malaysians etc...

If the government chose Gamuda and MMC, what would Malaysians say?
--- affect foreign relations, no fair trade etc...

There was an open tender, where Ircon, China Railway and DRB submitted a joint bid, with Gamuda-MMC submitted the other bid. The price by Gamuda-MMC is much lower.

When this contract was awarded to Gamuda-MMC, the rights of first refusal was awarded to Ircon and China Railway, where if they could match the bidding price by Gamuda, they would get the project. They refused to do so. After that, Gamuda invited them to be sub-contractor and those are not small subcontrator, but in the range of RM3-4 billion each for the north and south portion of the project...

Plus the letter of intent is not binding. Those who have taken a law class would have realized that...

Hope to hear more comments on this issue...

[CrAzyCow]

Population do not decrease. Cost of Heavy-duty Labour like buulding highways only get more expensive every year. Yet here we are trying to defend the significant of a Beautiful airport that only gets 35-/+ Million passenger every year and cost more to maintain and run then having a profit.

Erm.. u are dead wrong tht population do not decrease. Detroit? Perhaps u shud make sure wat u are toking before making such a baseless facts.

N KLIA is still not in full operational yet. Think for a second . if KLIA is fully operational NOW, when Putrajaya is not even fully up yet n same goes for all the area around it, wouldn't it be really ridiculuos to build an airport that is already at it's maximum capacity NOW? We cannot be so short sighted..especially when we very well know that Subang Jaya is already so old and it can no longer support the demand of our society. needs.

I am not against development of the Eastern side. As i mentioned again n again, is the matter of time n proper planning. We dun have Bill Gates as our main sponsor in our country....

Ok.. i rest my case. I think is very inappropriate for me to keep on pursuing this matter. Sorry again guys n gals.

[joseph173]

First, thanks for ur fast response.

You made a very good point, the " Price".
Something isn't right from the begining. I'm glad the deal didn't close with either Ircon or China Railway contractor. The deal almost went through at the price of $40 billion++. If it does, we would be the super dummy customer rank no.1 in the world. Somebody is going to get some tips from there.

Out of a sudden, Mokhtar, an ambitous entrepreneur or Tycoon, from Gamuda MMC, came into stage. RM14.5 billion closed the deal.

I have no problem with best offer.

But who knows what is the best offer. From the very begining there shouldn't be any $40 billion deal at all. Where was the proper evaluation.
(it would be too much if i talk about the consequences to foreign relationship, and international image)(please remember we also had a deal with Russia,which might send one malaysian astronout for free, at the price of buying fighter jet, there r no free lunch in this world)

Those who have taken a law class should know how to get around with the laws. You don't need to take a business class to know a healthy business operation.

This is not pasar malam, this is a billion ringgit project. Sad to say sometimes pasar malam really has the real better price for us, bcoz everybody is free to offer better deal to compete.

When our government is playing the under table game, it is hard to justified that any better "best offer" is available. Do u dare to say there are no other business group in malaysia has ability to do it at a better price?
How many fail privatize projects have been taken back by the government.
It wasn't coincidence or accident, they were the great renown business group in malaysia.

please don't feel offended when i use some critical terms or case. If any of u indeed hurt by this, i'm sorry. The reason i speak explicitly is hoping our people would care about our country

[__earth]

from my perpective, it's simply common sense to choose 14 billions instead 40 billions. like in game theory, there is a dominant strategy and a dominated strategy. Apparently, Gamuda's strategy was the dominant one and their competitors' was the dominated one.
I don't know how you do it in law school but in business school, or at least in the economics courses that I am taking, the lower the cost for the tender issuer, the better the outcome will be.

and about best price, how do you know there is a better offer? surely the negotiating team knows better than some other speculators.

[littlebigone]

Whoa, thirdshifter, eart and crazy cow have been having an intense discussion here. Never have I seen people speak more passionately about roads and railroads.

Anyway, joseph, I don't get what you mean by where was the proper evaluation. Weren't both parties given equal opportunities to come up with a good proposition. Even after Gamuda won the bid, the other party didn't challenge their bid.

Are you trying to say that the the whole $40 billion was a scam to make Gamuda's bid seem more acceptable? I;m confused. Or are you saying that there were other companies that could offer a better deal than $14.5 billion that were not taken into consideration.

[Thirdshifter]

Erm.. u are dead wrong tht population do not decrease. Detroit? Perhaps u shud make sure wat u are toking before making such a baseless facts.


The population of cities is a whole different ball game. Its a trend in the USA for Urbanites to move to the new built surrounding surburbia.

In Malaysia however the population growth is at 1.91%. People just don't die,, they might move from cities to towns to kampung but they're still there.

I'm only preaaching about the importance to built a highway system that is accessible to everyone not just a selected group of people in selected areas.

[chenchow]

I think there is a slight confusion in the letter of intent that i said was not binding...

The issue at hand was that Government of Malaysia had issued a letter of intent to Ircon and China Railway on the railway contract. When I said that a student who had taken a law class would understand, I meant that they would know that the letter of intent was not binding.

This is completely different from the perspective of whether it would be the best scenario or something.

If the letter of intent were to be binding, then the action of government to grant the contract to Gamuda, would be illegal by Law.

Currently the letter of award by Gov to Gamuda is legally binding, hence Pak Lah, do not even have the capacity to overturn the decision, even if he would like to do so. By overturning the decision to award the project to Gamuda, government of Malaysia would be vulnerable to Law suit by Gamuda.

Hope that clears a bit the confusion.

[joseph173]

http://sg.biz.yahoo.com/031119/15/3g035.html

http://business-times.asia1.com.sg/story/0,4567,98922,00.html

http://biz.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2003/11/6/business/6653815&sec=business


Thank you very much for the reply. Some of you confused about my arguments. Here i enclose a few links, readings is always better. I couldn't guarantee these web infos are not from those opposition party to demonize our ruling goverment. Personally, i think we should be open minded to read others idea. In this rail transportation issue, some of u seems to believe the whole process was reasonable, just because, Price!
Again, i want to emphasize, i also like cheap stuff. This is the way of economics, everybody knows that.

I'm not trying to tell everyone to oppose any of our government project, just trying to lay out some current issues. Please read the following article from todayonline, that would be my main concern, especially the second page.

http://www.todayonline.com/articles/9940.asp

Please read and undertand why i made the above statement, then tell me what u think. This project might or might not do well by the contractor in the future, but is our responsibility to find out and let them know someone is watching them.

[__earth]

I'm only preaaching about the importance to built a highway system that is accessible to everyone not just a selected group of people in selected areas.

and the other ppl are trying to tell you that development comes proportionately with population density and some other factors. you can't grow a field of grass in the middle of the empty desert.

[chenchow]

joseph173, certainly i agree that there are more than prices that are the determining factor here.

the links that are provided by joseph173 are very good reading, for you to have the background information on this issue.

I would argue that it is normal for a negotiation process, to go through the initial stage of signing a letter of intent, to kick start a negotiation process. At this stage, the success rate would still be very low.

Then, the parties involved would try to strike a deal that would be a win-win situation to all parties. It would be countless rounds of negotiation.

And if it successes, then the process could go ahead; if all the parties could not come to an agreed decision, then the negotiation may die off and this is precisely the phenomena here.

While the price tag may not be the only issue involved, this is a mega project which involves billion dollar and we need to be double sure.

Gamuda-MMC are not corporations that do not have experience in this. I read somewhere that the Gamuda-MMC turnovers are even larger than Ircon.

Gamuda is also an experienced corporation in transportation sector. Shah Alam Expressway, LDP, Sprint Highway, KL Elevated Expressway.

MMC comes with no poorer credentials. Port of Tanjung Pelepas, Kulim-Butterworth Highway, Gas Malaysia, Malakoff are projects of MMC.

[joseph173]

so far, i think this transportation project is going ok.
I have confidence with Pak Lah, at least our big boss give some attention to this matter.
When the government knows the public is keeping an eye on it, things won't go too bad.

From "Transportation" to concern, is what we need. thANKS!

[Thirdshifter]

I'm only preaaching about the importance to built a highway system that is accessible to everyone not just a selected group of people in selected areas.

and the other ppl are trying to tell you that development comes proportionately with population density and some other factors. you can't grow a field of grass in the middle of the empty desert.

I don't think Building a highway has anything to do with population density. It's only for connecting Point A to point B. I think everyone else is trying to tell me is, A long the highway on PLUS that goes from JB to bukit kayu Hitam, the whole area surrounding the highway is VERY POPULATED? last time i checked, there's more people in kota bahru then there is in Parit buntar or Muar.

[chenchow]

I agree that the highway would need to be built as spanning as possible, however, often those projects would come under hefty cost. So, either taxpayers' money is used for that, or we need to privatize it and again, the consumers would query about the toll...

While population density may be only a small factor, the demand would need to be concerned. I believe that in 1990 when PLUS was builted, the demand on this highway, was more on the west-coast. Although certain towns like Parit Buntar would be a small town, the entire demand for such a highway would be tremendous and now, we even have to widen the north south highway to 3 lanes each.

While Kota Bharu has a large population and it would be ideal if a highway could be constructed from K.B to Kuala Terengganu, and then down to Kuantan, connecting Karak highway. I believe that the work ministry is working on that project. We could see that the Karak highway is not heavily used, although the toll charged is significantly lower than PLUS. So, in terms of economic feasibility, it would be tough to spend money on such project. Look at the Seremban - Port Dickson highway, it is a very good highway, but it is almost deserted. I used it once to get to Port Dickson and it is a pretty good highway, with almost no traffic at all. The toll is about RM3 per way, so I would not say that it is expensive. So, how would people want to build such highway?

I agree that government social responsibility is there, but we need to consider all perspectives.

[CrAzyCow]

As we all know, we dun need to just focus on building new highways connecting to new places. We can alwiz improvised on our existing highways and railroads.

Our North to South Highway is the best highway built that benefited thousands of ppl. In KL, the expressway is getting congested n is really sad that the expressway ends with a round-about that always causes congestions. Why not have more exits along the expressway n have the expressway connected to the highway which will still ensure a smooth traffic flow but ppl will still be able to get to their destinations. We can build more highways but we often neglect things that are more important. As i mentioned before, the problem is not to build. Is how well are we able to maintain it n improvised on it.

[__earth]

I don't think Building a highway has anything to do with population density. It's only for connecting Point A to point B. I think everyone else is trying to tell me is, A long the highway on PLUS that goes from JB to bukit kayu Hitam, the whole area surrounding the highway is VERY POPULATED? last time i checked, there's more people in kota bahru then there is in Parit buntar or Muar.

try Georgetown + KL + JB. those are the three biggest cities in malaysia. seems to be populated enough to me. like you said, its connecting point A to point B, the points of dense region to another points of dense region.
and of course, like i said earlier, and chenchow just said it again, there are other factors.

in any case, the government is building a highway in the east coast, again, like i said earlier and chenchow just said it again.

you sound very passionate about this topic but i'm curious, what do you think are the reasons for constructing highways ?
from your post, i am under the impression you want highway everywhere - of which why the reason i, and maybe the others don't agree with you.

[masterof_none]

I feel itchy to post since last Monday when the debate heated, but I due to some time constraint, I failed.

Anyway, I'll try to summarize what I've learned so far from my reading of 7 pages discussions about Enhancing Malaysian Transportation.

I divided the latest discussions into 2 :
1.One is about whether or not government should create roads regardless of population density.

2. the Railroad project controversy

When I first read Thirdshifter's argument, I think there's a flaw in his argument. First, he proposed that the government should distribute all taxpayers' money in the equal basis. He proposed that the government should also enhance road facilities in the rural area particularly in the East Coast.
(Others said that this is just fair: KL generate more income that the rural area, thus, KL people deserve better transportation facilities. )

I once believe that he preched socialism. I wanted to say to Thirdshifter:
Socialism failed, not because of the idea. The idea is really great.
But the implementation was a flop. Socialism increased the size of bureaucracy, and hence, increase corruption. Plus, it's hard to plan the economy, to predict the production, GDP, distributed 'equally' among others is just next to impossible. (thus, USSR collapsed, but thanks to Deng Xiapoing, China move to market economy in 1980's)

But when you look carefully Thirdshifter's argument, in some ways, he's right:
To illustrate what I understand from his idea, let's consider a hypothetical bus company called ReCom Omnibus,which operates throughout Pahang.
Recom omnibus operates from Kuantan to other places such as Cherating, Jerantut, K. Lipis, and other places. However, since revenue generated by recom omnibus derived from route to cherating is way higher than other places, recom omnibus simply ignores to enhance the facilities in Jerantut and k lipis, thus, enraged people from both places. ReCom omnibus realize that they should do more with the other route, but they refuse, since it genererate less income. OK. That seems logical right?.
Now, Recom not only enhance the facility in Cherating, but build beautiful, and luxurios facilities for tourists in cherating. This is where Thirdshifter's point, from my understanding, come into play. Rather than ReCom spends money on building luxurios facilities in Cherating, why not enhance the 2 other places ?. Why should ReCom waste money on builiding multiple route (for example) to Cherating that serve the same purpose while ignoring people in the other part of Pahang?.
Now, I'm not sure whether this is what Thirdshifter means, but , if it is, then I agree with him. ReCom should divert the excess capacity in Cherating to Jerantut and Kuala Lipis. Then only it is fair.

On whether KL or Penang is the most popular, I agree with Thirdshifter once again, it is Penang (but not sure about Georgetown though)
I've been to Boston, Chicago and live in LA, they all have 'Penang Restaurant'. I once spent my spring break at friend's place in Chicago, and to my surprise, his dad knows about Penang Restaurant, and , whether people know whether it is part of Malaysia or not, that's another question.
But Yes, Penang is the most popular. But KL is gaining more and more attraction these days, thanks to the beautiful scenery created by the government. I couldn't be happier when hearing someone who's parents just came back from M'sia, they usually said "M'sia is beautiful". Certainly it is. But at some cost, of course.

Why would the government want to build this luxurios project?
Apart from tourism and national pride, what else?
Let's read our previous PM's mind. Why do you think it's OK ?


On Gamuda project, I received the news with mixed feeling.
I think in some ways, we may quickly jump into conclusion that M'sian government has, whether intentionally or not, 'cheated' both Ircon and the other Chinese company.

But , this is where you see economy and politics at works.
We don't know who's right or wrong. There's a gray area here that we should analyze carefully before jump into a conclusion.

[__earth]

just for the record, i editted my posts for grammatical purpose. the main content is the same.

and masterof_none, great post but the penang stuff, people know it as the restaurant, not as the state, from my experience at least.

[Thirdshifter]

Here's how i will summerize what i meant to say the whole time.

We argue that Devoloping KLIA,Putrajaya, Stadium Bukit Jalil, KL sentral and the whole nine yard was future benefit and Economically Smart. I could agree with that because labor cost do rise and Material would cost more in the future.

Was it a strategic plan? I have to say no. Is it more important to build all of the above in KL then to connect every city in Malaysia via ground transportation? Some may argue that all the cities are connected. True.

But is it efficient?

Isn't more wise if we would've built a more sophisticated highway system rather then shelling out billions of tax dollars on white elephant projects?

What comes first? the ability of Malaysian to be proud of things we hired someone else to built ( KLCC, LRT, STAR, Putrajaya etc) or the ability to drive to anywhere in Malaysia on a well paved 2 lanes roads?

Look at history, in USA the goverment spent billions and billions of dollar devoloping their Interstates Highway system back in the 50s. And look at USA and what it is today? The mobility of it's citizen is something we should try to duplicate.

[__earth]

We argue that Devoloping KLIA,Putrajaya, Stadium Bukit Jalil, KL sentral and the whole nine yard was future benefit and Economically Smart. I could agree with that because labor cost do rise and Material would cost more in the future.

Was it a strategic plan? I have to say no. Is it more important to build all of the above in KL then to connect every city in Malaysia via ground transportation? Some may argue that all the cities are connected. True.


you agreed? i thought you were against it all the time...

anyway, about mobility... IMO, it's pretty easy to get from KL to Kota Bahru unless you use Jeli's route to get to the east side, but then the Jeli route cuts through the banjaran, its like the interstate in CA that crosses the Sierra Nevada and yosemite. all in all, you could get from Singapore or southern thailand to practically everywhere in Msia, except if you want to get to the peak of Gunung Tahan, then you have to walk for the miles. I say Msia's transportation system is pretty satisfactory minus some old roads but hey, even the US interstate's condition is not as good as Karak's.

I donno know about sarawak or sabah though but i would presume, dayak, iban and the likes want to maintain sawarak and sabah condition for the moment. in addition, the geography in the two states make it easier to travel by plane and the ticket price is pretty cheap.

and white elephant, somehow, i remember somebody called the Penang Bridge and Proton that.

[chenchow]

About white elephant, we must remember that we must plan for the future. Should we build something that at its launching, is already running at capacity or near capacity? Wouldn't it be suicidal to do that, as we would very soon need to build something new to meet the demands. KLIA is designed for 100 years.

Look at North South Highway, 10 years ago, it was pretty deserted. People complaint that it is a white elephant? is it now?

The same goes with Penang Bridge. Many criticize it when it was built, saying that it is not necessary. It cost too much... how about now?

KLIA's capacity is 25 million passengers for its phase one and currently, it is running at around 17 million. So, if we have 5% growth each year in air traffic passenger, we would be at capacity within 8 years or so... We have grown from 13 million in 1998 to 17 million now in 2003. So, if you count percentage wise, it is like 52% in 1998, and 68% now. Someone could argue that it may be partly due to domestic flight relocation to Sepang, but isn't it that Sepang is designed for that. They moved the international flight to sepang first and then only moved the domestic... KLIA's land is able to cater up to 100 million passengers, so I believe it should be having the capacity to last for another 50 years or so...

[__earth]

talking about transportation, i really look to the double-railways-track project.
it would be nice to take a train from singapore and all the way up to china - like the oriental express. damn, some romanticists will surely fall in love with it; being a week in the train, watching things go by and nothing else.

[kevinkhoo1986]

About white elephant, we must remember that we must plan for the future. Should we build something that at its launching, is already running at capacity or near capacity? Wouldn't it be suicidal to do that, as we would very soon need to build something new to meet the demands. KLIA is designed for 100 years.

Look at North South Highway, 10 years ago, it was pretty deserted. People complaint that it is a white elephant? is it now?

The same goes with Penang Bridge. Many criticize it when it was built, saying that it is not necessary. It cost too much... how about now?

KLIA's capacity is 25 million passengers for its phase one and currently, it is running at around 17 million. So, if we have 5% growth each year in air traffic passenger, we would be at capacity within 8 years or so... We have grown from 13 million in 1998 to 17 million now in 2003. So, if you count percentage wise, it is like 52% in 1998, and 68% now. Someone could argue that it may be partly due to domestic flight relocation to Sepang, but isn't it that Sepang is designed for that. They moved the international flight to sepang first and then only moved the domestic... KLIA's land is able to cater up to 100 million passengers, so I believe it should be having the capacity to last for another 50 years or so...

I am gonna agree with chenchow. We should be thankful that our country was blessed with a visionary leader such as Tun Dr Mahathir. Few decades ago, a lot of people complaint about the construction of North-South highway and said it was such a waste of money. But look at right now, without north-south highway, would you be able to reach Penang in 4 hours from KL for example? I still recall when i was young, my father drove us to penang using the crappy and unsafe old road. It took nearly 10 hours to reach Penang from KL. As for the construction of Penang Bridge, it was also received quite a number of complains from the public those day. But look, the bridge right now are congested with vehicles and it is the most convenience way to get into the island. There is even a proposal to build another bridge or broader the current bridge. I guess those who were complaining few decades ago regarding to the mammoth projects have to eat their own words right now.

[ElansarGelmir]

the penang bridge is the 4th longest bridge in the world... was the third longest bridge, until the Japanese constructed the world's longest bridge... Grrr.............

[pandaboy]

transportation in malaysia? hmm....
i dun really like public transports in malaysia...
bus overloaded with passengers, taxis charging standard fees instead of using meters, pickpockets in buses and trains.... arrggh...so many complaints....

i definitely prefer to drive......if not bcos of the traffic jams..
LRT is pretty ok.... but... they shouldnt have so many diff lrts, such as Putra, Star, Monorail...it's so confusing. I tried taking LRT to the National Library....and I spent half a day in LRT...from subang.. Firstly, have to take commuter, then swritch to putra, then StarLRt...... it's just so troublesome. Why not standardised them?

[chenchow]

pandaboy, there is a link at the thread below for the feedback submission to the ministry involved on public transports and we should do that, to provide feedback.

http://recom.homelinux.org:8000/~recom/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=19930#19930

I believe i have found information on the different system on the LRTs at thread above too. The government is doing consolidation process, where it is expected to be consolidated by end of 2005. Mainly, they use different contractors when building, because if anyone fails, we still have at least the rest working. And now, they are in the process of transfer ownership etc, where KLIG and a consortium of two other companies will be managing the entire transportation system in Klang Valley in 2006, and it would be single-ticketing.

[ElansarGelmir]

I am looking forward to seeing LRTs and monorails branch out to Penang, though that may take a few more years.

[Thirdshifter]

I am looking forward to seeing LRTs and monorails branch out to Penang, though that may take a few more years.

One of my old friends mother who workeds in Jabatan perancangan Pulau Pinang told me Penang will start building their own rail-transit in 2010.

[budakkerek]

2010 - the year kedah'll be a developed state. though not sure what they mean by "developed"

kedah maju 2010 :D

budakkerek : pretty much a kedahan at heartm though house's in penang LOL

[iQing]

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2004/7/2/nation/8346817&sec=nation



Open more lanes, highway concessionaires told

KUALA LUMPUR: Highway concessionaires which have yet to install the Touch 'n Go and Smart Tag under the single electronic toll collection (ETC) system have to open more lanes to ensure smooth traffic flow, said Works Minister Datuk Seri S. Samy Vellu.

[kucingbiru]

to ensure smooth traffic flow

heh heh, to ensure smooth traffic flow (for maybe a few years, and later, we'll add some more lanes, or even new highways = more source of income), said Sammy Velu.

[Hush]

From my point of view, I think the transportation system in Malaysia is considered pathetic compared with those in other countries that I have been to. As a Malaysian, I really hate to say this, but it is the time for Malaysians to have a much better transportation system if we want to call ourselves as the citizen of an advanced country, and not developing country anymore.

Year 2020 seems far ahead, but actually, time is like running out. Perhaps, we are once proclaimed to have one of the best highways in the world, but that might refer to West Coast of Peninsular Malaysia only.

I am from Sabah and frankly, there are more highways here in my hometown, but sadly, without lights in the dark although there are lampposts. Are they for decoration or what?

If I were to cite an example, I think we should really learn from Hong Kong. Without any doubt, it has excellent transportation system, I must say. Two thumbs up!! Well, in the first place, maybe it's because the place is small, therefore, it is easy to maintain the system. In the second place, the people in HK know how to not vandalise the boon.

We are blessed with buses. But, can you see what are the conditions of the buses? They are always overloaded with passengers and the seats are in such a bad condition. Worse still, the drivers will not start off their engines until their buses are full of passengers. Overloaded, I would say.

The taxis are even worse. They charge without using meters. They won't take us to a place which is too near. They treat us like fools and think we do not know they are using the long ways instead of the proper ones. The list goes on and on. Undoubtedly, there are taxi drivers who are honest, nice and responsible.

Many places in Malaysia are not accessible despite so many improvements in transportation system over the past few years. For those with cars, of course, they would prefer to drive. But why in HK, people prefer public transports even if they could afford to purchase their own cars?

I would suggest that we should have double-deckers so that more passengers can enjoy the convenience. I always wonder why there is no double-decker in Malaysia. Is there anyone who could tell me the answer? All the bus and taxi drivers should have proper uniforms. Bus drivers in HK dress up much better than those who work in the offices in KL. They wear neckties!! All buses should be equipped with TVs and radios.

In conclusion, I believe Malaysia would one day be one of the most admired country for having an excellent transportation system throughout Malaysia. The question is how long will it take? 10 years? 20 years? Or more? I am so looking forward for that day to come.

[digimushu]

Think of the size of Hong Kong as a city and how much the money the British has put into it as their entreport base in the Asia-pacific region, then u will see why it has such good facilities. Also, thier borders are limited and i think they have less corrupt administrators (not saying Tung Chee Hwa is doing a good job tho).

Singapore too. Think of the size of the island and compare it to KK. Although signapore has limited resources, it also has limited space to do development. Thus, they will keep improving what they have instead of enlarging their development space. I have taken the bus from Kuching-Sibu-Bintulu-Miri-Brunei(my road trip ..hahaha)and I have to agree with you, the road conditions are appaling. I have also been to KK and seen what is is like and i feel that local infrastructure development has a lot to do with the state gov. Sarawakians and Sabahans generally are not as vocal as the west Malaysians and do not ask as much. Also, we(east m'sia) have more nature than the West malaysians. I prefer to keep it that way so my children and their children can go jungle trekking and hiking in the trails whenever they want(ah..the waterfalls of Gunung Gading.. ).

I've been in KL and west m'sia many times and i can tell u, the air over in the island of Borneo is fresher. :)...oh well...Just an observation, we also have less industrial development here in the east m'sia. Thus, does it makes sense to improve public transport when u do not have places(work, mall, etc...) to go to? Wait till Sabah and Sarawak has a better industry base..then we can talk about Public transport.

:)

[chenchow]

I think a lot of these boil down to attitude. The attitude of sambil lewa from some government officers, the lack of civic mindedness among Malaysians,...

I think that transportation issues are crucial to our country and I would recommend that we brainstorm over here and submit a Press Release, or a letter to the Press. With ReComers coming from all parts of the country and also have the experience of studying in many parts of the world, I think we have something to share and contribute.

In terms of public transportation, I think the LRT, be it Putra, Star, KL Monorail, ERL, it is of pretty high class. What do others think of it? I think the KTM Komuter service is decent too, although it could be improved further. The single ticket issue is being addressed, as currently all those services are owned by different companies, and I believe the restructuring of the LRTs will be done by end of 2005 or early 2006, where we can by then pay a single fare for LRT.

In terms of buses, I would say that our short-distance buses require lots of buck up. One thing is that certain hours, the buses are very full, certain hours it is empty, yet it is running at equal frequency. So, may be a good way to start would be to introduce bus schedule that changes based on time of the day.

Another thing would be punctuality. If the bus service is reliable and punctual, I believe Malaysians would take it.

In terms of the bus cleanliness, I would say that part of the responsibilities would go to the public. Why should we, the public make the buses dirty? Why should we leave our rubbish behind? Why should we vandalize it? Am sure you guys have seen such vendalism in public property. So, before we talk about becoming a developed nation, the people's mentality should be corrected.

Another thing is that the bus service could be supported by local interest groups, organizations etc. For instance, in Ithaca, where I am, my university pays a few million dollars a year, to subsidize the bus rate to $1.50 per trip. May be in Malaysia, if the fare could be reasonably high enough for the companies to invest well on maintaining the bus, there could be good companies to come in and do a good job.

Sometimes, I wonder. Why our LRT stations, PLUS toilets, LRTs, Airports, those things that look new, people don't litter, but many local bus terminals, local buses, it is vandalized and littered? For instance, KL Sentral has been pretty well-kept, although it has been there for 4 years. I see Malaysians bring their rubbish to throw at proper places, when the place seems high-class, but do not do so at other places, why?

In terms of our express buses, I think the service is pretty good, at least it is much better than Greyhound in US. Maybe during festive seasons, there are some companies that try to raise the prices, but personally, I think Transnasional does a good job in terms of our express buses.

What do others think? Lets brainstorm and I think we should submit this in newspaper.

[masterof_none]

This discussion has the potential to be published as a press release from Recom. Those who feel wanting to volunteer summarizing the important points and write them up, this is the chance.

[chenchow]

Just found this website. Seems a good integration of our Klang Valley Transportation System. Route, schedule and fare of buses, LRTs, Commuter etc are available in it.

And it seems that these few days in KL, they are installing those Variable Message Sign, where the traffic situations in major roads in KL would be known, i.e. you would know which road to avoid and if I am not wrong, there would be pictorial view of the congestion in various parts.

http://www.itis.com.my/index.jsp

[ElansarGelmir]

Sometimes, I wonder. Why our LRT stations, PLUS toilets, LRTs, Airports, those things that look new, people don't litter, but many local bus terminals, local buses, it is vandalized and littered? For instance, KL Sentral has been pretty well-kept, although it has been there for 4 years

I guess it's a matter of the standard of the place, and the ppl around the place... Those airports, KLIA, KL Sentral are pretty classy places, and thus, one would feel abased if caught littering.... dropping a piece of tissue paper would perhaps send you running after it.... And i believe there are guards there too to watch u.... even if the guards are not watching, there are others who may notice... And they have cleaner to clean up the rubbish... so that's why the cleaniness is always maintained.... Asking that question is just the same as asking why poor kids tend to involve in social ills and gangsterism compared to the rich ones?


Can we suggest the smart card system for LRT or KTM? I always find myself have to queue up to get the ticket for LRT or KTM and always miss the train by 10 seconds due to the long queue.... Like in Singapore, the train is there, run to the entrance, scan ur wallet, and the door's open, and just rush in....!!!! Isn't that more convenient?

[__earth]

Can we suggest the smart card system for LRT or KTM? I always find myself have to queue up to get the ticket for LRT or KTM and always miss the train by 10 seconds due to the long queue.... Like in Singapore, the train is there, run to the entrance, scan ur wallet, and the door's open, and just rush in....!!!! Isn't that more convenient?

there is actually IIRC. try asking the station manager for such service.

[ElansarGelmir]

Can we suggest the smart card system for LRT or KTM? I always find myself have to queue up to get the ticket for LRT or KTM and always miss the train by 10 seconds due to the long queue.... Like in Singapore, the train is there, run to the entrance, scan ur wallet, and the door's open, and just rush in....!!!! Isn't that more convenient?

there is actually IIRC. try asking the station manager for such service.

Really? but how come the gate to the KTM only accept those with the tickets? No scanner anywhere....

[__earth]

couldnt you buy a refillable card or something?

you then dont have to buy the ticket each time you need to ride a train. and the machine scans your card...

[ElansarGelmir]

Never heard of it at KTM... But LRT can lar... Can we have more LRTs in Malaysia?

[chenchow]

There would be common ticketing expected by end of 2005 or early 2006. The government is restructing the entire public transports system, including reowning all of those infrastructures, so as common ticketing is possible. So, we still have to get used to this for another 1.5 years. In fact, the LRTs (not too sure about Komuter) accept Touch-n-go .

ElansarGelmir, on LRT, I would say that it is in the pipelined to build more, but there is still the cost factor. I saw a master plan of the LRT system, where by 2020, there would be 500km of LRT in Klang Valley, linking every corner of Klang Valley. In fact, our LRT is much more extensive than the one in Beijing, if that's a comparison.

And about having to pay many times, that happens in Hong Kong too. Their system is not integrated either... Kind of sucky, that have to pay once every time entering a system and in HK it is not cheap, like HKD 11 or so (depending on distance) per entry, so going from one place to another actually costs like HKD 20+ (RM10+) for one way...

[ElansarGelmir]

2020... still a long way to go... I think MAlaysia's public transport seriously need a stiff competition from other companies so that they will try their best to outbeat their rivals, and in the end, the consumers can enjoy every benefit out of the competition... however, i think few companies would like to invest into public transport as there's not really a popular demand among the Malaysians... Most ppl rather drive... those who are too poor to afford a car or dunno how to drive only rely heavily on public transport...

[__earth]

Most ppl rather drive... only those who are too poor to afford a car or dunno how to drive only rely heavily on public transport...

this is fatally flawed thinking. people use mass transit for a lot of other reasons.

wrt intracity connections, certainly one of the main reasons is to avoid congestion. Back in Malaysia, i could drive but whenever I want to go to the city center, I drove to the nearest station and then commuted on a train. I am sure there are a lot of other people like me.

[weich]

The east coast highway's under development, read here:

http://www.bernama.com.my/bernama/v3/news_lite.php?id=78328

=)

And I'm all for an integrated transport system...it's just pretty darn stupid to have to buy tickets again to change to another line...and even when there's like a Touch N Go card, it's only used on Putra..I wonder why...

maybe for a start...we should just implement the option to pay tickets by Touch N Go on all LRT services and also the buses....

...and also a bus directory...so that blur ppl like me can find out from a book/from the internet...how to plan a trip using public transport =)

[ElansarGelmir]

Most ppl rather drive... only those who are too poor to afford a car or dunno how to drive only rely heavily on public transport...

this is fatally flawed thinking. people use mass transit for a lot of other reasons.

wrt intracity connections, certainly one of the main reasons is to avoid congestion. Back in Malaysia, i could drive but whenever I want to go to the city center, I drove to the nearest station and then commuted on a train. I am sure there are a lot of other people like me.

well, that only happens in KL... if u're stuck in Shah ALam without any cars, then i guess u will have to depend on public transport...

[chenchow]

weich, in the link I posted earlier on the integrated plan, the bus schedule/fare/route is published. I didn't really look in details, but it seems there are links to those stuff... Check it out...

On competition for public transport, do you guys think that our market is big enough for competition? While competition is good, the demand is not big enough to support it. And about social conscientious, it is not that some of the companies, for instance Intrakota can't operate, but because they have to operate on some losing money route (which is part of social responsibility), they can't just operate optimumly on other routes.

Do you guys think that public transportation should be purely commercial or still with social responsibility?

[__earth]

Remember, you said this:

Most ppl rather drive... only those who are too poor to afford a car or dunno how to drive only rely heavily on public transport...

which not true. and then:

well, that only happens in KL... if u're stuck in Shah ALam without any cars, then i guess u will have to depend on public transport...

the latter is true but different from your earlier statement.

If you dont have a car at all, you are no choice but that is not the main reason why most people - even people with their own vehicles - use mass transit.

[ElansarGelmir]

I said most ppl.... if not, how come there's still a congested traffic in KL?

And i'm not talking about public transport in KL... KL has enough of that... how about those ulu ulu places where the bus comes once in an hour, or sometimes 3 half hours? That's the place where most ppl rather drive... after all, there's not much traffic, yes?

[__earth]

I said most ppl.... if not, how come there's still a congested traffic in KL?

And i'm not talking about public transport in KL... KL has enough of that... how about those ulu ulu places where the bus comes once in an hour, or sometimes 3 half hours? That's the place where most ppl rather drive... after all, there's not much traffic, yes?

still, you havent backed your claim of that only people without car or can't afford one use mass transit. That is the original issue of this disagreement, not why most people prefer to drive when there is little mass transit.

When there is no mass transit, there is no choice, which is different from the contested statement.

and we are talking in context of public transportation in urban area, specifically about trains - KTM, LRT. Observe the past 15 posts with the exception of Chenchow's that was posted after this disagreement. but the last 15 posts certainly didnt talk about bus in some rural area.

[chenchow]

Read 2 articles on this Transportation issue just now on Berita Harian.

http://www.bharian.com.my/m/BHarian/Sunday/Mukadepan/20040731233707/Article/

This is basically about the integration of our transportation system in Klang Valley.

Among the interesting points raised in that article that we could further ponder upon:-
a) This committee of Klang Valley Public Transportation Integration System consists of senior officers of Transport Ministry and relevant agencies, with experts on urban public transportation system, human resources consultants, law and public communication experts, and restructuring consultant, and this committee would report directly to Prime Minister Department.

b) There would also be creation of Urban Transportation Authority (UTA), which is put under the jurisdiction of PM Department, to solve the problems within the public transportations in urban areas.

c) The company that would operate public transportations, including public buses, LRTs etc, would be rated under a rating system, where if they perform above standard, they would get some incentive and if they perform below par, they would get a hefty fine.

d) This integration will go with 2 phases. Phase 1 is the integration of Putra, Star, Cityliner and Intrakota. All 4 of these would be integrated first and the phase 2 would include other public transportations including KL Monorail, KTM Komuter, Express Rail Link etc.

Any comment on all these?


The other article is about the KTM Komuter would increase its frequency to every 10 minutes during peak hours, from every 15 minutes currently. KTM would purchase 10 more new trains for that purpose. There would also be covered platforms for all KTM Komuter stations.

[Thirdshifter]

I said most ppl.... if not, how come there's still a congested traffic in KL?

And i'm not talking about public transport in KL... KL has enough of that... how about those ulu ulu places where the bus comes once in an hour, or sometimes 3 half hours? That's the place where most ppl rather drive... after all, there's not much traffic, yes?

still, you havent backed your claim of that only people without car or can't afford one use mass transit. That is the original issue of this disagreement, not why most people prefer to drive when there is little mass transit.

Elansar has a valid point. People who use mass transportation are those who can't either afford their own transportation or don't Drive.Keep in mind that Kuala Lumpur is not the only Urban area in Malaysia.

Lets take Georgetown for an example. My grandparents lives about 15 minutes from Downtown and the only Mass transportation in Penang are buses.
These buses comes by every one hour, sometimes two hours, and ofcourse just to make it harder there's no fixed schedule. Not even aproximations of the frequency of the Buses.

Many penangites could attest that this is truly the case. What elansar said is in my opinion very fair and quite true for many penang-urbanites.

I myself prefer not-driving in KL although the Highways in KL are pretty good and rarely congested not because i have so many options when it comes to public transportation but its the stupid drivers and ofcourse Mat rempits. However i drive almost 80% of the time in KL.

On the LRT part, I use them frequently as well, only when i need to go these 2 Major destinations that seems to be the destinantion for almost everyone on the train. Bukit bintang/Jln Imbi (monorail) and KLCC (putra) :) besides those wo places i think most of the places i go in KL are not connected to LRT.

Also, the Public transportation in KL shuts-off at 11.30 p.m so that itself is a turn off to trt getting on a bus or Lrt in the evening and having to take the risk of missing the last bus/train and end up paying a 30%surcharge for pass midnight taxis.

[chenchow]

This is my 2000th post in ReCom...

Back to the topic. What thirdshifter points out is true about Penang. The public transportation in Penang, left much to be desired... If you are going from major destinations, like Jetty to Komtar and vice versa, Komtar to Bukit Jambul and vice versa, Komtar to Batu Feringghi and vice versa, those routes are pretty convenient to take public transportation. However, a lot of other smaller destinations, the public buses are in very poor state.

Could others in other areas please help report the situation in your area.

I used to take a lot of buses from Nibong Tebal to Bukit Mertajam and vice versa. I would say that for non-peak time, the bus service is pretty punctual, leaving every 20 minutes and the journey is pretty smooth. However, during peak time, especially saturday afternoon, the trip becomes miserable, due to serious traffic jam, and the buses are always late. Hence, it creates a lot of delays. As the buses are delayed, and the journey time is lengthened, the buses would get even more packed, since the frequency is reduced and everyone wants to go up the bus as soon as possible.

So, I would look at the issues of public buses in Malaysia, with the notion that we need to solve the traffic jams as well. I am not sure how much the coastal highway and PORR in Penang has solved the problems, may be those who are there could fill us in.

For KL, I would say that I took LRT, Komuter a lot when I was studying at INTEC. Walking to the Komuter station or taking a cab/bus there, and then from there, I could go to Klang, Sunway, Subang, KL pretty easily. From KL, if I need to go to areas like Bukit Jalil, PWTC, or other areas, STAR filled that gap and for PUTRA, that would be going around to KLCC. Perhaps, we could submit feedback to the committee on which part of Klang Valley requires LRTs etc, since they would be building the 2nd phase of LRTs in a few years time, after this restructuring process is completed.

[Thirdshifter]

I am not sure how much the coastal highway and PORR in Penang has solved the problems, may be those who are there could fill us in.

I was in penang last month and part of coastal highway Sungai Pinang/Jelutong - Bayan lepas is already open and it does saves me couple of minutes commuting Between Bukit Jambul and Georgetown.

I'm not sure when the next phase would start but i suspect it wont be for awhile. There seems to be no work in progress. I think the land reclamation for the other part of the highways has not even started yet.

Also, congratulations on your 200th post. Keep them coming.

[chenchow]

This is concerning airline transportation...may be it is a bit off-topic, but I would like to share with everyone on this.

It is about Tony Fernandes, CEO of AirAsia, who often goes down to the ground, to serve the drink, collect rubbish and fulfill requests of passengers.
http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Wednesday/Letters/20040728083950/Article/indexb_html

[chenchow]

Found this statistic on NST today:-

Total riderships of Putra + STAR last year:-
92 million (average of 252,054 per day)

Total ridership of KTM Komuter last year:-
24.8 million (average of 67,945 per day)

Express Rail Link to KLIA last year:-
1.8 million (about 5,000 per day)

LRT feeder buses:-
14.72 million (average of 40,329 per day)

What do you guys think of this statistic? This translates to about 15% of Klang Valley population takes 1 round-trip on LRT or KTM Komuter each day, or on average, each Klang Valley person uses 1 one-way trip on LRT or KTM Komuter every week.

This statistic does not include KL Monorail and Express Rail Link.

http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Monday/National/20040802091619/Article/indexb_html

This article brings out the issue of feeder bus too. Any comment?

Hope that more ReComers can comment on this issue.

[Thirdshifter]

What do you guys think of this statistic? This translates to about 15% of Klang Valley population takes 1 round-trip on LRT or KTM Komuter each day, or on average, each Klang Valley person uses 1 one-way trip on LRT or KTM Komuter every week.

Lets do the Maths.
1. Total Riders on Putra, Star, KTM Komuter And ERL are 360,328 person/day.

2. KTM-Komuter goes as far as Seremban, Negeri Sembilan and Rawang Selangor.

- STAR as far as Ampang and Sentul

- Putra, Gombak and Kelana Jaya.

3. Total population that have access to the service is:

Kuala Lumpur (all trains) 1,400,000
Subang Jaya (Komuter) 450,000
Seremban (komuter) 290,000
Kelang/Port Klang (komuter) 630,000
Ampang (STAR) 473,000
Kajang (Komuter and STAR) 207,000
Petaling Jaya (Komuter/Putra) 438,000
Rawang (Komuter) 65,000
Selayang (Komuter/Putra) 187,000
Shah Alam (komuter) 319,000

Total = 4,272,187
Figures taken from: http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Asia/malaysit.htm

Just to be sure, Kuala Lumpur's Total Urban Area Population according to http://www.mongabay.com/igapo/Malaysia.htm is 4,060,000

So lets take 4.2 Million potential riders and see the percentage. If my calculations are correct, it's more likely that 7% rather then 15% of Klang Valley population takes 1 round-trip on LRT or KTM Komuter each day. The actual numbers might be even lower considering that, most of the Commuters on KTM-Komuter departs from outside of the great Klang Valley Metropolis(KL-Subang-Selayang-Shah Alam-PJ).

Also, the number of the ridership itself could be exaggerated :D

Anyway please continue, i just thought it would be better to get all facts out for the sake of arguing. :lol:

[chenchow]

Thanks thirdshifter for pointing that out...

I had well very under-estimated the population of Klang Valley at 2 million. Thanks for researching the data and sharing with us.

So, there is still a lot to do to look into this figure and see what Malaysia could have done. Anyone has any idea of the statistic of KL Monorail, so as we can have a more complete picture.

Any suggestion that we, from ReCom could share with the committee? Keep up the discussion~!

[ElansarGelmir]

Remember, you said this:

Most ppl rather drive... only those who are too poor to afford a car or dunno how to drive only rely heavily on public transport...

which not true. and then:

well, that only happens in KL... if u're stuck in Shah ALam without any cars, then i guess u will have to depend on public transport...

the latter is true but different from your earlier statement.

If you dont have a car at all, you are no choice but that is not the main reason why most people - even people with their own vehicles - use mass transit.

Let me clarify myself... Most ppl rather drive... don't u agree? Maybe u are in the "not-most" category? However, due to traffic congestion, some ppl rather use the public transport than having to line up for hours in the traffic..... If the roads to KL are not congested, with smooth flow of traffic, won't u rather drive?

And my statement only those who are too poor to afford a car or dunno how to drive only rely heavily on public transport doesn't have a flaw in it... if u can't afford a car, u have to use public transport... If ur parents' car's at home and yet u dunno how to drive, u still have to use the public transport, yes? Well, note that i say RELY HEAVILY.... those who have their transport but choose to use public transport (like what u have argued) have the choice to drive or to use the public service.... So, we can't really say that they are totally depending on those KTM or buses, yes? Coz if those public services broke down, they still have other alternatives - driving!

[__earth]

here is the problem - only people with that two attributes use public transportation?

note the word only. the word heavily is uninteresting in this case. surely, there are other reasons too. if you remove the word only, then there would probably no problem.

and consider this - why the parking lots in most LRT stations in are almost full everyday? surely they could drive instead using LRT.

and cmon, you are asserting that only two specific cases affect a general issue. If I introduce one more case, of which I have already done, your statement is already flawed. Purely logical error.

that is what i am pointing out. i hope this time, you understand what the problem with you statement.

[ElansarGelmir]

Ok, ok, my bad. i'll delete the ONLY...

seriously, do u think the ppl without cars will be able to drive around if there's no public transport? Those with cars won't die if there's none.... So that's the degree of severeness in RELY HEAVILY.... Which means, those with cars could rely on the public transport too, but only those without cars or dunno how to drive rely on those public transport heavily.... heavily like 90% depending on the transport.... err... does that make enough sense? U have car, right? and u depend on the public service to get to the city.... But not as heavily as the ones without any means of private transportation, am i right to say that?

[__earth]

Ok, ok, i'll delete the ONLY... if it pleases u....

seriously, do u think the ppl without cars will be able to drive around if there's no public transport? Those with cars won't die if there's none.... So that's the degree of severeness in DEPEND HEAVILY....

i am not concern with that. you seem to have not understood what i am arguing of. i am only concern with your assertion that there are only two reasons make people use public transport. as i have said earlier, DEPEND HEAVILY is not the question.

[ElansarGelmir]

Ok, ok, i'll delete the ONLY... if it pleases u....

seriously, do u think the ppl without cars will be able to drive around if there's no public transport? Those with cars won't die if there's none.... So that's the degree of severeness in DEPEND HEAVILY....

i am not concern with that. you seem havent understood what i am arguing of. i am only concern with your assertion that there are only two reasons make people use public transport.

using public transport and relying on them heavily are not the same... don;t u get it? u can choose to use it, if u want to, but to be totally depending on it would be different.

And the world's not only about KL...

[__earth]

look, i am not saying your two reasons are wrong.

I am saying, there are more than two reasons. that is why the phrase DEPEND HEAVILY is not the question. that is why I am pointing to you the word only. there are other people that have cars and depend heavily.

and cool down.

[ElansarGelmir]

look, i am not saying your two reasons are wrong.

I am saying, there are more than two reasons. that is why the phrase DEPEND HEAVILY is not the question. that is why I am pointing to you the word only.

and cool down.

urgh! u r driving me nuts! the word does make the difference. I know u are relying on the public transport too... but it is not as much as those without the car... that's why i say depend heavily... without the phrase, i may be wrong... but now i am right to a certain extend... ]maybe u dun feel the weightage of the phrase "depend heavily"... just meditate deeply into these 2 words... hope u get what i mean....

P.S. in my informal speeches, the word ONLY usually doesn't make much difference... it's more like an abuse of word.... dun take it too seriously....

but i am right to say ONLY those in rural areas without cars or dunno how to drive rely heavily on public transport ..... So, i'm not totally wrong....

[__earth]

look. let me explain this logically.

that is your statement

only those who are too poor to afford a car or dunno how to drive only rely heavily on public transport

which has two premises

only those who are too poor to afford a car rely heavily on public transport

call that A. note, if the word only stands, A is false.

only those who dunno how to drive only rely heavily on public transport

call that B. if the word only stands, B is false.

And A and B belong to a Universe which has everything else. For simplication, consider everything else is C. And the universe is the reasons why ppl uses public transportation heavily. the word heavily does not matter because its the universe itself.

You assert only A and B. but C is true too.

Now you see what's your statement problem?

[ElansarGelmir]

use != depend

have u watched iRobot?

[__earth]

use != depend

i didnt have the word use in my immediate previous post.

but im giving up.

and read the book. the movie is not on par with the book.

[ElansarGelmir]

use != depend

i didnt have the word use in my immediate previous post.

but im giving up.

And the universe is the reasons why ppl uses public transportation heavily

good... coz i'm giving up too...

[__earth]

And the universe is the reasons why ppl uses public transportation heavily

just to clarify.

And the universe is "the reasons why ppl uses public transportation heavily" where "the reasons why ppl uses public transportation heavily" is Z.

so, the universe is Z.

not

And the universe is the reasons why ppl uses public transportation heavily

but i am right to say ONLY those in rural areas without cars or dunno how to drive rely heavily on public transport

and now you are changing the quote...

[ElansarGelmir]

And the universe is the reasons why ppl uses public transportation heavily

just to clarify.

And the universe is "the reasons why ppl uses public transportation heavily" where "the reasons why ppl uses public transportation heavily" is Z.

so, the universe is Z.

not

And the universe is the reasons why ppl uses public transportation heavily

huh? got difference?

anyway, peace be with u... I'm backing out... I am wrong to use ONLY.... now, let me rest, k? Malaysia's public transport needs us to think of ways to improvise it.... let's discuss logics elsewhere

[chenchow]

hahaha... looks like both of you have a fun time debating... It is quite fun reading it, and i believe it is healthy debating...

back to the core issue, anyone has any thoughts on the public transportation?

Do you think that we should use taxpayers money to enhance the public transportation? Right now, most of the public transportations are privatised and it is on build-operate-transfer (BOT) mechanism...

[ElansarGelmir]

hahaha... looks like both of you have a fun time debating... It is quite fun reading it, and i believe it is healthy debating...


Hehe, next time i'll charge the audience... Not everything's free...



Do you think that we should use taxpayers money to enhance the public transportation? Right now, most of the public transportations are privatised and it is on build-operate-transfer (BOT) mechanism

Well, as long as a single company doesn't monopolize the industry, i dun think there's a need of government's intervention, unless it yields a high profit margine... I guess the fees that the private companies charge are quite reasonable...

The only thing that concerns me is linking the rural areas surrounding the urban areas to the cities more efficaciously... Chen chow, i guess u know how troublesome it is to go to Sunway Pyramid from Shah Alam Sec 18(get a bus to KTM, KTM to Subang, get a bus to Pyramid), unless u are willing to pay the unscrupulous taxi drivers who mug you right in front of ur own eyes (and u comply!)... Same goes to going to midvalley... we got to spend 30-45 minutes waiting for the city liner, and sometimes, 2 buses come within 10 minutes (which means the next bus will not arrive for the next 60-90 minutes).... However, most private companies are not willing to invest more money in these areas due to the fear of Lack of Demand... They'd rather focus on building stations in the midst of the hustle and bustle of the city...

[chenchow]

You have hit precisely on the thing I have intended in my mind , lack of demand, hence whether this necessitates the government subsidy in public transportation... Where should we balance social responsibility and demand?

For instance in Cornell, the university provide free buses from 6:30pm to 2am... especially those buses from 11pm to 2am, often, it has 0 passenger, yet the bus continued to operate... why, because sometimes, there would be 1 or 2 students needing it... I had been the only person in the bus for so many times already... So, you think that university subsidy for that free buses at late nights are worth it? It cost many thousands a year to support that free buses every night, just for one campus...

So, if bring back to this case, if Malaysia government is going to ensure that the public bus serve every little town, would the demand be there?

[ElansarGelmir]

For instance in Cornell, the university provide free buses from 6:30pm to 2am... especially those buses from 11pm to 2am, often, it has 0 passenger, yet the bus continued to operate... why, because sometimes, there would be 1 or 2 students needing it... I had been the only person in the bus for so many times already... So, you think that university subsidy for that free buses at late nights are worth it?

This reminds me of the Klang bus, where they charge us 80 cents... They will wait and cramp all passengers into compact tin of sardines (with body squashed against one another regardless male or female, passengers standing on the doorsteps), then only they start driving.... that is insane...

[__earth]

I guess everybody has heard about the crack on MRR2 and the allegation of bribery in the project. Samy Vellu had threatened to stop the repair if an investigation is to be conducted. And since the investigation has started, he has stopped the repair on MRR2.

I believe the repair should go on regardless of the outcome. The flyover is not Samy Vellu's property, its the people's property. He has no right to threaten and close the MRR2 if he is in trouble.

And it is about time Samy Vellu gets out of politics.

[retroque]

And it is about time Samy Vellu get out of politics.


Samy vellu out of politics?how can that be?remember...he claims that he is "still needed by the people"..(the indian pple i guess)..lol.


where the heck he gets that idea.it looks like more of 'perasaan sendiri".hehehe



no offence samy vellu. :D

[chenchow]

The stoppage is what directed by ACA, for ACA to gather proof, information on the flyover. As ACA spokesperson commented, the delay would be for only very short period of time and the repair work would be resumed as soon as ACA finished gathering all the details, photos of the cracks on MRR2

[chenchow]

Finally, there is a fully integrated bus system in Klang Valley.

RapidKL Bus transportation is currently fully functionable, with a fleet of 974 buses. Introkota and Cityliner is no longer functioning. And soon the rest Metrobus, Len Seng Omnibus and other bus companies will be merged into this RapidKL.

Currently, the average waiting time for all buses in KL is at 12 minutes (as claimed by RapidKL), and I would hope to hear from fellow ReComers about that. If this is so, this would make KL one of the vibrant cities with good transportation system.

Currently, adult passes are sold at RM47 for Area 1, RM62 for Area 2 and RM78 for Area 3. For senior citizens and children, the prices are RM24, RM31 and RM39 respectively.

This Bus Pass will soon be integrated with the one by STAR and PUTRA, as it is both owned by RapidKL as well. It says that they have lower rate for students as well.

Current unlimited LRT on PUTRA is RM70 per month and unlimited LRT on STAR is RM70 per month and unlimited on both PUTRA and STAR is RM125 per month.

Found this trip planner at PUTRA website. it looks fantastic, you can actually identify any restaurant/place of worship/company in their database etc, and you can choose where you want to go and they tell you what to take.

http://www.putralrt.com.my/travel/plan_trip_from.asp

[shimania]

So guys, what do ya think about the transport system now, after almost a year Rapid KL has been formed ? While some of you have been very enthusiastic in expecting what govt has announced, how much of it has been implemented on time ?

We also hear very little about the proposed monorail system in Penang. How long do they want us to wait ? Also, the proposed network in the Draft Structure Plan was much bigger than what was initially planned. It would be extended all the way to Nibont Tebal etc if I am not mistaken.

What about double tracking and electrification from Padang Besar to Johor Bahru, is it really going to do more harm to the country ? :D