Malaysia vs. Singapore

[raizz]

In truth, I'm a great admirer of Singapore. Lee Kuan Yew the Senior Minister who is still the real power behind the country has created a country out of a small island. ???and has done a good job moulding the character of his people. Unfortunately for Singapore and Malaysian relations, Lee Kuan Yew has always kept his country on its toes by posing Malaysia as its bogeyman. It has also insulted our country openly by saying our country is rife with corruption and laziness. And the worst thing is that we are their potential enemy.

I am tempted to share my views on the notion of a union between Singapore and Malaysia. For a start, I believe that such an idea is unlikely, at least not during our present generation. Perhaps an Economic Union but definitely not politically or even socially. On Singapore's part there is simply too much intolerance on how we do things, too much suspicion on Malaysia's intentions and they regard with validity that Singapore is too developed a nation for Malaysia.

Corruption could be one of the main factors stopping the unification of Singapore and Malaysia. I mean, can the Malaysian government cope with an atmosphere free from corruption? Can the BN government rule in a condition free from corruption, nepotism, favouritism etc as opposed to their PAP counterpart? In fact, in the last Singaporean General election, the opposition parties were in a state of loss as they had very few issues to pick with the Singaporean government. Singaporeans aren?t speaking up because to speak up and challenge the powers that be would attract so much scorn from the dictator that people prefer to keep quiet, at least for now. If one were to so much whisper "Corruption!" by the Lee family, defamation suits would come raining down.

Put aside these bickering and unneighborly behavior and look at the big picture ?We continue to compete and compare with Singapore so infamously, and forget the likes of the other 8 siblings in Asean. Recom is a movement for the future. Let?s decipher what doctrines of values and virtues we're keen to champion. Lets then disseminate that seed all across Asean.

[raizz]

In truth, I'm a great admirer of Singapore. Lee Kuan Yew the Senior Minister who is still the real power behind the country has created a country out of a small island. ???and has done a good job moulding the character of his people. Unfortunately for Singapore and Malaysian relations, Lee Kuan Yew has always kept his country on its toes by posing Malaysia as its bogeyman. It has also insulted our country openly by saying our country is rife with corruption and laziness. And the worst thing is that we are their potential enemy.

I am tempted to share my views on the notion of a union between Singapore and Malaysia. For a start, I believe that such an idea is unlikely, at least not during our present generation. Perhaps an Economic Union but definitely not politically or even socially. On Singapore's part there is simply too much intolerance on how we do things, too much suspicion on Malaysia's intentions and they regard with validity that Singapore is too developed a nation for Malaysia.

Corruption could be one of the main factors stopping the unification of Singapore and Malaysia. I mean, can the Malaysian government cope with an atmosphere free from corruption? Can the BN government rule in a condition free from corruption, nepotism, favouritism etc as opposed to their PAP counterpart? In fact, in the last Singaporean General election, the opposition parties were in a state of loss as they had very few issues to pick with the Singaporean government. Singaporeans aren?t speaking up because to speak up and challenge the powers that be would attract so much scorn from the dictator that people prefer to keep quiet, at least for now. If one were to so much whisper "Corruption!" by the Lee family, defamation suits would come raining down.

Put aside these bickering and unneighborly behavior and look at the big picture ?We continue to compete and compare with Singapore so infamously, and forget the likes of the other 8 siblings in Asean. Recom is a movement for the future. Let?s decipher what doctrines of values and virtues we're keen to champion. Lets then disseminate that seed all across Asean.

[el_empty]

holy cow

true LKY is a controversial figure. but please be more specific and quote your sources when making such provocative statements (you might get sued yourself). specifically, do quote sources for the following:

a) "posing Malaysia as its bogeyman"
b) "insulted our country openly by saying our country is rife with corruption and laziness"
c) on what grounds are we "their potential enemy?"
d) Singapore's "intolerance on how we do things" and "suspicion on Malaysia's intentions" and their "regard with validity that Singapore is too developed a nation for Malaysia"

sorry too many holes.

btw, there will never be a reunification. there's no reason to and there never will. singapore and malaysia are two separate, sovereign, and independent, nations.

[el_empty]

holy cow

true LKY is a controversial figure. but please be more specific and quote your sources when making such provocative statements (you might get sued yourself). specifically, do quote sources for the following:

a) "posing Malaysia as its bogeyman"
b) "insulted our country openly by saying our country is rife with corruption and laziness"
c) on what grounds are we "their potential enemy?"
d) Singapore's "intolerance on how we do things" and "suspicion on Malaysia's intentions" and their "regard with validity that Singapore is too developed a nation for Malaysia"

sorry too many holes.

btw, there will never be a reunification. there's no reason to and there never will. singapore and malaysia are two separate, sovereign, and independent, nations.

[Thirdshifter]

heh, Malaysia is actually smart to let singapore go. If i was Tunku, i would myself.

Singapore had become what it is today because of what british left them. A huge popular sea port. Unfortuantly Singapore was built from money collected from The Malaya during those 200 years of imperialism.

Past is the past. I'm pretty sure down the road, Malaysia would be a greater country because of it diversity and it's history. Malaysian fight for their rights and equaloty and we would eventually learn how to cherish it more and to protect it more.

Anyway, Malaysia is still singapore biggest partner when it comes to trading. So why the hatred?

[Thirdshifter]

heh, Malaysia is actually smart to let singapore go. If i was Tunku, i would myself.

Singapore had become what it is today because of what british left them. A huge popular sea port. Unfortuantly Singapore was built from money collected from The Malaya during those 200 years of imperialism.

Past is the past. I'm pretty sure down the road, Malaysia would be a greater country because of it diversity and it's history. Malaysian fight for their rights and equaloty and we would eventually learn how to cherish it more and to protect it more.

Anyway, Malaysia is still singapore biggest partner when it comes to trading. So why the hatred?

[el_empty]

heh, Malaysia is actually smart to let singapore go. If i was Tunku, i would myself.

erm i'm not sure if it immediately were a smart thing to do to let singapore part from malaysia. it's a huge topic and there are many ways, good and bad, to look at it.

Singapore had become what it is today because of what british left them.

ah malaysia is also quite what it is today because of prolific rubber, tin, and gas(!!) industries, also 'gifts' from the british (plus the dutch for the gas). they also left us (formerly known as) port swettenham, airstrips/ports, etc., things they left with the singaporeans too. i say we were on a better footing since we had a huge natural resource industry.

on a sidenote, their greatest gift is a good working education system, which we brutalized, reducing it to a complete failure.

Unfortunately[sic] Singapore was built from money collected from The Malaya during those 200 years of imperialism.

ok this i really have to disagree. this statement generalizes too much and can mean many things. singapore was the most profitable investment for the east india co. and the colonial office, partly bc it conducts entreport trading with resources from the malay peninsular.

however your statement can also convey the meaning that singapore, in its early years as an independent country was built by virtue of capital channelled from malaysia. this is quite untrue. right after the seperation, singapore's economy was virtually kaplut - there were no natural resources, very small educated workforce, and the british military - the biggest consumer group, security force, and technicians for the port - left in 1967. what brought singapore up, or should i say, what built singapore from then on, was sound and prudent leadership, planning, and diplomacy.

on that note, another way to read your statement is that when malaysia was formed, and later the expulsion of singapore, a lot of malayan businesses and cash left for the island state, and those moolah were used to build singapore. true. but that i don't see anything wrong with. the malay peninsular was a huge mess and inbreeding ultranationalism + racial riots and what not. simple rule: turmoil = capital flight.

[el_empty]

heh, Malaysia is actually smart to let singapore go. If i was Tunku, i would myself.

erm i'm not sure if it immediately were a smart thing to do to let singapore part from malaysia. it's a huge topic and there are many ways, good and bad, to look at it.

Singapore had become what it is today because of what british left them.

ah malaysia is also quite what it is today because of prolific rubber, tin, and gas(!!) industries, also 'gifts' from the british (plus the dutch for the gas). they also left us (formerly known as) port swettenham, airstrips/ports, etc., things they left with the singaporeans too. i say we were on a better footing since we had a huge natural resource industry.

on a sidenote, their greatest gift is a good working education system, which we brutalized, reducing it to a complete failure.

Unfortunately[sic] Singapore was built from money collected from The Malaya during those 200 years of imperialism.

ok this i really have to disagree. this statement generalizes too much and can mean many things. singapore was the most profitable investment for the east india co. and the colonial office, partly bc it conducts entreport trading with resources from the malay peninsular.

however your statement can also convey the meaning that singapore, in its early years as an independent country was built by virtue of capital channelled from malaysia. this is quite untrue. right after the seperation, singapore's economy was virtually kaplut - there were no natural resources, very small educated workforce, and the british military - the biggest consumer group, security force, and technicians for the port - left in 1967. what brought singapore up, or should i say, what built singapore from then on, was sound and prudent leadership, planning, and diplomacy.

on that note, another way to read your statement is that when malaysia was formed, and later the expulsion of singapore, a lot of malayan businesses and cash left for the island state, and those moolah were used to build singapore. true. but that i don't see anything wrong with. the malay peninsular was a huge mess and inbreeding ultranationalism + racial riots and what not. simple rule: turmoil = capital flight.

[el_empty]

just a footnote:

i apologize if i seem a little aggressive in this forum... i'm not. it's just a pet topic of mine, probably my favorite issue to bounce around.

and i'm really glad that raizz (thanks! :D ) raised the issue. do communicate your views everyone!

[el_empty]

just a footnote:

i apologize if i seem a little aggressive in this forum... i'm not. it's just a pet topic of mine, probably my favorite issue to bounce around.

and i'm really glad that raizz (thanks! :D ) raised the issue. do communicate your views everyone!

[__earth]

on a sidenote, their greatest gift is a good working education system, which we brutalized, reducing it to a complete failure.

I'm not siding with anyone but the education system we inherited from British is hardly a gift. Vernacular system - the traditional divide and conquer system - is more of a curse.

You could say it's working education system and I say it is too. However, it is also a working time bomb too.

If Malaysians were Americans, the education system would have been revamped a long time ago. But then, Malaysians are not as liberal as the Americans.

Sad to see such a thing still exist well into the 21st century.

[__earth]

on a sidenote, their greatest gift is a good working education system, which we brutalized, reducing it to a complete failure.

I'm not siding with anyone but the education system we inherited from British is hardly a gift. Vernacular system - the traditional divide and conquer system - is more of a curse.

You could say it's working education system and I say it is too. However, it is also a working time bomb too.

If Malaysians were Americans, the education system would have been revamped a long time ago. But then, Malaysians are not as liberal as the Americans.

Sad to see such a thing still exist well into the 21st century.

[masterof_none]

on a sidenote, their greatest gift is a good working education system, which we brutalized, reducing it to a complete failure.


British left a divided Malaya,
Malays in kampung, Chinese in the city, Indian in the estate.
Each race employed different syllabus.

I'm not sure in what way British give a good "working" education system. IMHO, it is British who "brutalize" Malaya and left us in the state of confusion.

Just curious, in what way Malaysians "brutalize" the education system.? (maybe you want to be more specific ).

Anyway, back to the topic.
IMHO, the unification of Singapore and Malaysia is probably unlikely, at least for the time being.
First, because, according to a website runs by PAP, Singapore's Constitution does not permit it to happen


It must be clarified from the onset that the SDA is not advocating a political union with Malaysia but only an economic union. Singapore's Constitution, in any event, does not allow any government to surrender the sovereignty of Singapore to another nation. The SPP through the SDA is advocating an economic union and not a political union. It is important that such a clarification is made because as it is many people are already wrongly saying that the SPP is calling for another merger with Malaysia. We only want a common market arrangement with Malaysia and not a political merger.


And as raizz pointed out, Singapore is only interested in forming an economic union with Malaysia. Why? ...because :


At the moment, Singapore has a market of about 3 million people. Should an economic union with Malaysia be realized then Singapore's market shall grow from 3 million to about 23 million. When that happens Singapore shall be able to have a buffer against a bad world economic situation. If we had a market of 23 million people now, we may be able to generate enough local consumption to pull us through a patch of hard times as we are experiencing now. Unfortunately we do not have that market. So we have to suffer a high unemployment rate until world demand picks up again.



http://www.spp.org.sg/sp171102b.html

Singaporeans suffer badly during the economic recession. Their economy depends on the trade. (esp to the US). If the US market is bad, they'll suffer. and that's what happened last time, when the US was in recession (I think it's still in,, although a sign of 'jobless recovery' is here), they have a very severe unemployment rate.

By forming economic union with Malaysia, at least , if they are unemployed, they can come to Malaysia and find at least like they say a "buffer" while waiting for the global economic recovery. Whether this would benefits Malaysia or not, that's left to us Malaysians to decide

However, I think, if the unification does occur, (for whatever reason), we must see each other as "Malaysians", which, I don't think the present generation (us), are ready for it.

We would still tend to associate Singaporeans with their "kiasuism".
And in reality , they are (if you need more clarification, try to drive in Singapore and try bunch of things...you surely would realize it)

So, I don't see any possible reunification in the short term, and I couldn't find the reason why. I think Malaysians now are relatively in a very good shape,(compared to our condition 30 years ago)
and political reunification would just complicate Malaysian politics.

However, in the long run....

regarding ASEAN, I think our potential economic partner now is Thailand. I think Thailand has a huge market.

And I still believe that the Malaysia needs economically strong neighbors . Just like Korea benefits from being a Japanese neigbor, we could also benefits from rich/stable neigbors.

[masterof_none]

on a sidenote, their greatest gift is a good working education system, which we brutalized, reducing it to a complete failure.


British left a divided Malaya,
Malays in kampung, Chinese in the city, Indian in the estate.
Each race employed different syllabus.

I'm not sure in what way British give a good "working" education system. IMHO, it is British who "brutalize" Malaya and left us in the state of confusion.

Just curious, in what way Malaysians "brutalize" the education system.? (maybe you want to be more specific ).

Anyway, back to the topic.
IMHO, the unification of Singapore and Malaysia is probably unlikely, at least for the time being.
First, because, according to a website runs by PAP, Singapore's Constitution does not permit it to happen


It must be clarified from the onset that the SDA is not advocating a political union with Malaysia but only an economic union. Singapore's Constitution, in any event, does not allow any government to surrender the sovereignty of Singapore to another nation. The SPP through the SDA is advocating an economic union and not a political union. It is important that such a clarification is made because as it is many people are already wrongly saying that the SPP is calling for another merger with Malaysia. We only want a common market arrangement with Malaysia and not a political merger.


And as raizz pointed out, Singapore is only interested in forming an economic union with Malaysia. Why? ...because :


At the moment, Singapore has a market of about 3 million people. Should an economic union with Malaysia be realized then Singapore's market shall grow from 3 million to about 23 million. When that happens Singapore shall be able to have a buffer against a bad world economic situation. If we had a market of 23 million people now, we may be able to generate enough local consumption to pull us through a patch of hard times as we are experiencing now. Unfortunately we do not have that market. So we have to suffer a high unemployment rate until world demand picks up again.



http://www.spp.org.sg/sp171102b.html

Singaporeans suffer badly during the economic recession. Their economy depends on the trade. (esp to the US). If the US market is bad, they'll suffer. and that's what happened last time, when the US was in recession (I think it's still in,, although a sign of 'jobless recovery' is here), they have a very severe unemployment rate.

By forming economic union with Malaysia, at least , if they are unemployed, they can come to Malaysia and find at least like they say a "buffer" while waiting for the global economic recovery. Whether this would benefits Malaysia or not, that's left to us Malaysians to decide

However, I think, if the unification does occur, (for whatever reason), we must see each other as "Malaysians", which, I don't think the present generation (us), are ready for it.

We would still tend to associate Singaporeans with their "kiasuism".
And in reality , they are (if you need more clarification, try to drive in Singapore and try bunch of things...you surely would realize it)

So, I don't see any possible reunification in the short term, and I couldn't find the reason why. I think Malaysians now are relatively in a very good shape,(compared to our condition 30 years ago)
and political reunification would just complicate Malaysian politics.

However, in the long run....

regarding ASEAN, I think our potential economic partner now is Thailand. I think Thailand has a huge market.

And I still believe that the Malaysia needs economically strong neighbors . Just like Korea benefits from being a Japanese neigbor, we could also benefits from rich/stable neigbors.

[jiinjoo]

Perhaps it is actually a good idea to just say it out - I mean constitution preventing certain things from happening can always be ammended when the necessity arises. Not that it happens very often..

Raizz, I have given the same issue a long thought before this, especially when I was in S'pore a few years back. The term that I found useful for talking about this topic is "Singalaysia", which I found from this website: http://www.newasiawoman.com.sg/nawbiz/nabw_010213a.shtml (just revisited the site and found that links to pictures are no longer there).

To spare you the long thought process that I came out with, it suffice to say that we can think about this term Singalaysia as a "concept", or a better word I like - a "project". Project Singalaysia is an attempt to harness the potential by facilitating coorperation between Malaysia and Singapore in all aspects for the betterment of all their citizens. It does not only include economic benefit, which was the main driving force behind survival / development for both the countries in the last centuries.

This milestone is more tangible than a baseless revolution for merger, since there's no need currently for it. Even if Singapore's trade starts going down to unprecedented levels, the population shirnks to half its current size, GDP & SGD plummet etc super bad things happens, the de-facto thing to do is for other countries to supply financial aid, and not merger. There needs to be a very compelling reason to do so. The only plausible reason is the historical lament, model after Germany (oh well, we "used to be" one country... well for 2 years at least...) Not very sound to me.

So we have pointed out some obstacles in the thread, e.g. corruption, constitution, cultural differences etc. That's what I think this project can address. Here are the different aspects raised thus far:

1. Economic
An ecomonic union? Same currency (or same bundle peg)? Bilateral relationship by giving tax benefits? Free relocation of resources (i.e. the employment question)? They all sound interesting, but do notice that the main problem preventing this is the fact that both Singapore and Malaysia are doing exactly the same thing! There's nothing much to "coorperate". We're not like upstream downstream integration - we're both manufacturing processors, electronics, one ICT one KBE, one BioHub one BioValley, both scouting for oil, both sending thousands overseas every year, and the only difference is that Singaporeans are usually eating Malaysian chicken (and the rest of argiculture). Note that Singapore has been very aggresive in getting Thai to be their main economic partner too, maybe they are more complementary than us?

So what can we do? Merge companies that's doing the same thing over Selat Tebrau? Merge PSA and PTP so that they can efficiently spread out the operations? Expand "belilah barangan buatan malaysia to malaysia and singapore" and go rally on Orchard road as well? What else? Someone help me here...

2. Cultural / Identity
"Kiasuism"? Seeing each other as "Malaysians" (or let me use the neutral term here: Singalaysians?) If there were to be "coorperations", the bickering, from leaders to the grassroots have to stop - will it? This forum itself shows sentiments that resist assimilation, that's fine, but how about coorperation? Suppose there is a merger, let's don't talk about different races yet and just consider how would the Chinese community in Malaysia see the ex-Singaporean Chinese?

Maybe a preconditioning of the situation needs to happen? Maybe more student exchange program? More "golf weekend" organized for Singaporeans to Johor and more "shopping trip" and vice versa? More common activity e.g. bring back the SG/MY cup for football? All these are tangible but crucial stuff each of us can get involved in. I personally have been an ambassador to both country's band scene, where we try to get school bands exchanges going on, share music scores (hopefully authorities are not seeing), host each other when there is an event either at Victoria concert hall, the new durian concert hall, Dewan Philharmonik etc. Other ideas?

3. Other categories?
Ecological? Security? Regionalism has always been a hot topic these days - but in terms of what?



I think my ideas are getting very very stale. Hope to hear new ones, especially those that are easy, straightforward, and can be started right away.


As an aside:
Anyway, Malaysia is still singapore biggest partner when it comes to trading. So why the hatred?
Don't think that is a justifiable statement, coz the HUGE trading numbers actually comes from the fact many of our products are shipped over the causeway to be filled into the PSA ports. The actual purchase by S'pore is actually much less. If Tanjong Pelepas can be as efficient and potent as Tanjong Pagar, I think there's no reason for us to jam that causeway with cabbages and pineapples.

[jiinjoo]

Perhaps it is actually a good idea to just say it out - I mean constitution preventing certain things from happening can always be ammended when the necessity arises. Not that it happens very often..

Raizz, I have given the same issue a long thought before this, especially when I was in S'pore a few years back. The term that I found useful for talking about this topic is "Singalaysia", which I found from this website: http://www.newasiawoman.com.sg/nawbiz/nabw_010213a.shtml (just revisited the site and found that links to pictures are no longer there).

To spare you the long thought process that I came out with, it suffice to say that we can think about this term Singalaysia as a "concept", or a better word I like - a "project". Project Singalaysia is an attempt to harness the potential by facilitating coorperation between Malaysia and Singapore in all aspects for the betterment of all their citizens. It does not only include economic benefit, which was the main driving force behind survival / development for both the countries in the last centuries.

This milestone is more tangible than a baseless revolution for merger, since there's no need currently for it. Even if Singapore's trade starts going down to unprecedented levels, the population shirnks to half its current size, GDP & SGD plummet etc super bad things happens, the de-facto thing to do is for other countries to supply financial aid, and not merger. There needs to be a very compelling reason to do so. The only plausible reason is the historical lament, model after Germany (oh well, we "used to be" one country... well for 2 years at least...) Not very sound to me.

So we have pointed out some obstacles in the thread, e.g. corruption, constitution, cultural differences etc. That's what I think this project can address. Here are the different aspects raised thus far:

1. Economic
An ecomonic union? Same currency (or same bundle peg)? Bilateral relationship by giving tax benefits? Free relocation of resources (i.e. the employment question)? They all sound interesting, but do notice that the main problem preventing this is the fact that both Singapore and Malaysia are doing exactly the same thing! There's nothing much to "coorperate". We're not like upstream downstream integration - we're both manufacturing processors, electronics, one ICT one KBE, one BioHub one BioValley, both scouting for oil, both sending thousands overseas every year, and the only difference is that Singaporeans are usually eating Malaysian chicken (and the rest of argiculture). Note that Singapore has been very aggresive in getting Thai to be their main economic partner too, maybe they are more complementary than us?

So what can we do? Merge companies that's doing the same thing over Selat Tebrau? Merge PSA and PTP so that they can efficiently spread out the operations? Expand "belilah barangan buatan malaysia to malaysia and singapore" and go rally on Orchard road as well? What else? Someone help me here...

2. Cultural / Identity
"Kiasuism"? Seeing each other as "Malaysians" (or let me use the neutral term here: Singalaysians?) If there were to be "coorperations", the bickering, from leaders to the grassroots have to stop - will it? This forum itself shows sentiments that resist assimilation, that's fine, but how about coorperation? Suppose there is a merger, let's don't talk about different races yet and just consider how would the Chinese community in Malaysia see the ex-Singaporean Chinese?

Maybe a preconditioning of the situation needs to happen? Maybe more student exchange program? More "golf weekend" organized for Singaporeans to Johor and more "shopping trip" and vice versa? More common activity e.g. bring back the SG/MY cup for football? All these are tangible but crucial stuff each of us can get involved in. I personally have been an ambassador to both country's band scene, where we try to get school bands exchanges going on, share music scores (hopefully authorities are not seeing), host each other when there is an event either at Victoria concert hall, the new durian concert hall, Dewan Philharmonik etc. Other ideas?

3. Other categories?
Ecological? Security? Regionalism has always been a hot topic these days - but in terms of what?



I think my ideas are getting very very stale. Hope to hear new ones, especially those that are easy, straightforward, and can be started right away.


As an aside:
Anyway, Malaysia is still singapore biggest partner when it comes to trading. So why the hatred?
Don't think that is a justifiable statement, coz the HUGE trading numbers actually comes from the fact many of our products are shipped over the causeway to be filled into the PSA ports. The actual purchase by S'pore is actually much less. If Tanjong Pelepas can be as efficient and potent as Tanjong Pagar, I think there's no reason for us to jam that causeway with cabbages and pineapples.

[Thirdshifter]

I ofcourse have a lot of respect for the PAP a very liberal party which was rejected by UMNO which was ultra-conservative. The marriage was never meant to be.

Singapore's business was created by the british and ofcourse the singaporean did a great job of maintaining it throught these years.

Don't tell me that you actually believe it was the leader of singapore, out of nowhere came up with the idea of entreport?

It was there and has been there for over a 9 decades before singapore got their independence.

Singapore was well recognized as an SEAsian hub and people keep coming after british left because of its reputation. Even the capital of the Straits was Singapore.

Even during world war 2, british has considered Singapore to be a bigger asset and got as many Malaya Soldiers to defend it.

Singapore was also mainly used to export all the rubber and tin robbed from the soil of Malaya. If you actually believe british left Malaya a gift, think 'thrice'

IMHO,British left us nothing but problems. They on the other hand is still enjoying the economy they built using resources they Robbed from Malaya and many other countries.

My i say it again.. Malaya was robbed .. east india company wasn't an investor.. more like a thief.

It's unfortunate that you cant see the difference. So here's an Example:

Intel in Penang is an investor. The british East India company wasn't.

[Thirdshifter]

I ofcourse have a lot of respect for the PAP a very liberal party which was rejected by UMNO which was ultra-conservative. The marriage was never meant to be.

Singapore's business was created by the british and ofcourse the singaporean did a great job of maintaining it throught these years.

Don't tell me that you actually believe it was the leader of singapore, out of nowhere came up with the idea of entreport?

It was there and has been there for over a 9 decades before singapore got their independence.

Singapore was well recognized as an SEAsian hub and people keep coming after british left because of its reputation. Even the capital of the Straits was Singapore.

Even during world war 2, british has considered Singapore to be a bigger asset and got as many Malaya Soldiers to defend it.

Singapore was also mainly used to export all the rubber and tin robbed from the soil of Malaya. If you actually believe british left Malaya a gift, think 'thrice'

IMHO,British left us nothing but problems. They on the other hand is still enjoying the economy they built using resources they Robbed from Malaya and many other countries.

My i say it again.. Malaya was robbed .. east india company wasn't an investor.. more like a thief.

It's unfortunate that you cant see the difference. So here's an Example:

Intel in Penang is an investor. The british East India company wasn't.

[Thirdshifter]

Don't think that is a justifiable statement, coz the HUGE trading numbers actually comes from the fact many of our products are shipped over the causeway to be filled into the PSA ports. The actual purchase by S'pore is actually much less. If Tanjong Pelepas can be as efficient and potent as Tanjong Pagar, I think there's no reason for us to jam that causeway with cabbages and pineapples.

Malaysia do have good pineapples.. but Malaysia is even a bigger trading partner with USA compared to singapore. I'm sure cabbages from malaysia don't go to the north America.

Malaysia even sells water to singapore. I'm sure there's more then fresh produce that goes to singapore.

What about furniture? Home appliances? Printed materials? Textiles, Batu marmar must be a huge seller i bet. Food?

Let me see. what about services?

[Thirdshifter]

Don't think that is a justifiable statement, coz the HUGE trading numbers actually comes from the fact many of our products are shipped over the causeway to be filled into the PSA ports. The actual purchase by S'pore is actually much less. If Tanjong Pelepas can be as efficient and potent as Tanjong Pagar, I think there's no reason for us to jam that causeway with cabbages and pineapples.

Malaysia do have good pineapples.. but Malaysia is even a bigger trading partner with USA compared to singapore. I'm sure cabbages from malaysia don't go to the north America.

Malaysia even sells water to singapore. I'm sure there's more then fresh produce that goes to singapore.

What about furniture? Home appliances? Printed materials? Textiles, Batu marmar must be a huge seller i bet. Food?

Let me see. what about services?

[joseph173]

Those who blame the British,
Message for u: British didn't owe you anything. Ask yourself, how much do we have long b4 the British came. Where were our education system, political struture, business and etc... For sure the British intention was to make benefit out of our Malaya land, but if they were just a vicious conquerer, do u think we will inherit so much from them? The civilizatin that we currently have in Malaysia( the judicial, economical, political, hyro electric power generation system, railroad system, and etc) are built on top of what they left. Even they might not helped us out of generousity, they are not that bad.

THe question is, many of our people, Malaysians like to blame people, instead to solving our problem. Some advantages might help a new born country to start faster and easier, but that is not absolutely right. Japan, Taiwan, Korea, don't have much natural resource, but, they create something out of sand( silicon ~~ electronics) to prosper their country.

What we had since the independence wasn't tat bad. We already have 47 years to prove ourselves.

If you have determination, even people put u into a Kampung, u will go out to sail someday, don't blame others. That was one of the main reason westerners prosper. When i mentioned Kampung, i wasn't intended to be racist, but to point out a case(as the a chinese decendent, i'm felt very bad that our chinese ancestor stop sailing in the last Ching dynasty, which lead to the setbacks in knowledge and downfall of China).

Personally i think we should stop pointing fingers to others, but face our major problems.

[joseph173]

Those who blame the British,
Message for u: British didn't owe you anything. Ask yourself, how much do we have long b4 the British came. Where were our education system, political struture, business and etc... For sure the British intention was to make benefit out of our Malaya land, but if they were just a vicious conquerer, do u think we will inherit so much from them? The civilizatin that we currently have in Malaysia( the judicial, economical, political, hyro electric power generation system, railroad system, and etc) are built on top of what they left. Even they might not helped us out of generousity, they are not that bad.

THe question is, many of our people, Malaysians like to blame people, instead to solving our problem. Some advantages might help a new born country to start faster and easier, but that is not absolutely right. Japan, Taiwan, Korea, don't have much natural resource, but, they create something out of sand( silicon ~~ electronics) to prosper their country.

What we had since the independence wasn't tat bad. We already have 47 years to prove ourselves.

If you have determination, even people put u into a Kampung, u will go out to sail someday, don't blame others. That was one of the main reason westerners prosper. When i mentioned Kampung, i wasn't intended to be racist, but to point out a case(as the a chinese decendent, i'm felt very bad that our chinese ancestor stop sailing in the last Ching dynasty, which lead to the setbacks in knowledge and downfall of China).

Personally i think we should stop pointing fingers to others, but face our major problems.

[soul_out]

THe question is, many of our people, Malaysians like to blame people, instead to solving our problem.

I think the sentence "Malaysians like to blame people instead of solving our problem" is not true. It's only your personal opinion right?

[soul_out]

THe question is, many of our people, Malaysians like to blame people, instead to solving our problem.

I think the sentence "Malaysians like to blame people instead of solving our problem" is not true. It's only your personal opinion right?

[__earth]

Those who blame the British,
Message for u: British didn't owe you anything. Ask yourself, how much do we have long b4 the British came. Where were our education system, political struture, business and etc...

nor do we owe them anything. but i do agree with you, they are not to be blamed for.

but, digressing from the topic, why should we stick with the british education system (i.e. venarcular) and continue to be racially divided?

it's really a wonder to see how ppl in msia fight for venarcular system after almost 50 yrs of independence.

[__earth]

Those who blame the British,
Message for u: British didn't owe you anything. Ask yourself, how much do we have long b4 the British came. Where were our education system, political struture, business and etc...

nor do we owe them anything. but i do agree with you, they are not to be blamed for.

but, digressing from the topic, why should we stick with the british education system (i.e. venarcular) and continue to be racially divided?

it's really a wonder to see how ppl in msia fight for venarcular system after almost 50 yrs of independence.

[soul_out]

If you have determination, even people put u into a Kampung, u will go out to sail someday, don't blame others. That was one of the main reason westerners prosper. When i mentioned Kampung, i wasn't intended to be racist, but to point out a case(as the a chinese decendent, i'm felt very bad that our chinese ancestor stop sailing in the last Ching dynasty, which lead to the setbacks in knowledge and downfall of China).



Determination can be instil by the process of tough life and education. Westerners prosper because of Renaissance and Political Revolution. This 2 topics were covered in SPM Sejarah Dunia right? Out of curiosity and the strong desire to prosper, westerners had decided to sail to the unknown sea.

The purpose of Cheng Ho of Ming Dynasty was different from those westerners. He sailed because the 3rd Emperor of Ming dynasty who took over the Crown of the emperor by civil war against his own nephew (the 2nd Emperor of Ming), believed that his nephew escaped to Nanyang (South East Asia) with a great amount of treasure. Others believe Cheng Ho sailed 7 times with the purpose of promoting the name of Ming Dynasty as the greatest nation of the world, and improve the sea trading between Ming and other foreign countries in Nanyang. They've never colonise any place and it's totally different from the imperialism of British, Spanish, Portugese, French and Dutch.

Something to correct, the setbacks in knowledge and downfall of China is not due to the cease of sailing. In fact, westerners were very interested in Ching and always wanted to trade with Ching. Setbacks in knowledge and downfall of China were due to the stupidity of the Ching administrators, corruption, civil war, non-unity, poverty and education.

The way you blamed "kampung" residents lack of determination is quite unfair. As you say in your previous post, Malaysian shouldn't blame the situation but to help each other to sort out the problem. What's the point of blame them then?

If you realise, Malaysian Chinese ancestors "sailed" down south, or i would say "sold" to the south to work as cheap labour was due to the hardship in their hometown(Hokkien, Teow Chiew, Hai Nam, Hakka, Canton...). Initially, the purpose of them to work hard was to get as much $$$ as they can to send it back to their family in their hometown. Soon after they started to settle down in this lovely land and never think of want to go back to the place where they came from anymore. Right now, their sons and grandsons are called Malaysian, so do those came from kampung and rubber estate. They love this country as much as those came from kampung and rubber estate. They wanted this lovely land to grow as much as possible and ASAP.

These are my thoughts.

[soul_out]

If you have determination, even people put u into a Kampung, u will go out to sail someday, don't blame others. That was one of the main reason westerners prosper. When i mentioned Kampung, i wasn't intended to be racist, but to point out a case(as the a chinese decendent, i'm felt very bad that our chinese ancestor stop sailing in the last Ching dynasty, which lead to the setbacks in knowledge and downfall of China).



Determination can be instil by the process of tough life and education. Westerners prosper because of Renaissance and Political Revolution. This 2 topics were covered in SPM Sejarah Dunia right? Out of curiosity and the strong desire to prosper, westerners had decided to sail to the unknown sea.

The purpose of Cheng Ho of Ming Dynasty was different from those westerners. He sailed because the 3rd Emperor of Ming dynasty who took over the Crown of the emperor by civil war against his own nephew (the 2nd Emperor of Ming), believed that his nephew escaped to Nanyang (South East Asia) with a great amount of treasure. Others believe Cheng Ho sailed 7 times with the purpose of promoting the name of Ming Dynasty as the greatest nation of the world, and improve the sea trading between Ming and other foreign countries in Nanyang. They've never colonise any place and it's totally different from the imperialism of British, Spanish, Portugese, French and Dutch.

Something to correct, the setbacks in knowledge and downfall of China is not due to the cease of sailing. In fact, westerners were very interested in Ching and always wanted to trade with Ching. Setbacks in knowledge and downfall of China were due to the stupidity of the Ching administrators, corruption, civil war, non-unity, poverty and education.

The way you blamed "kampung" residents lack of determination is quite unfair. As you say in your previous post, Malaysian shouldn't blame the situation but to help each other to sort out the problem. What's the point of blame them then?

If you realise, Malaysian Chinese ancestors "sailed" down south, or i would say "sold" to the south to work as cheap labour was due to the hardship in their hometown(Hokkien, Teow Chiew, Hai Nam, Hakka, Canton...). Initially, the purpose of them to work hard was to get as much $$$ as they can to send it back to their family in their hometown. Soon after they started to settle down in this lovely land and never think of want to go back to the place where they came from anymore. Right now, their sons and grandsons are called Malaysian, so do those came from kampung and rubber estate. They love this country as much as those came from kampung and rubber estate. They wanted this lovely land to grow as much as possible and ASAP.

These are my thoughts.

[el_empty]

oop was away a while.

Vernacular system - the traditional divide and conquer system - is more of a curse.

before i continue to discuss this, correct me if i'm wrong. wasn't the vernacular system something the british did not advocate? i mean vernacular schools ie chinese schools, tamil schools, were products of immigrants back then who were keen to preserve their own, like you said, syllabus and culture and language.



on a sidenote, their greatest gift is a good working education system, which we brutalized, reducing it to a complete failure.


British left a divided Malaya,
Malays in kampung, Chinese in the city, Indian in the estate.
Each race employed different syllabus.

I'm not sure in what way British give a good "working" education system. IMHO, it is British who "brutalize" Malaya and left us in the state of confusion.

now don't get me wrong. the british did a lot of bad things to us, but i also believed they left us some legacy that is very much beneficial to us too.

Just curious, in what way Malaysians "brutalize" the education system.?

hmm i thought that was something obvious. there're too many layers to view this, but some examples would be the system being overstepped by political and social pressure - just to take one example, the system hinges not on meritocracy, but quotas. hard work is the fundamental prerequisite to success - but the govt chooses to sideline that to achieve politicical/social points (they claim that it is to raise everybody to the same playing field). hence compromising education altogether.

it's not that the less endowed should not be helped. but i feel that there are other means of achieving this, like providing more funds into help centers, teacher salaries, financial aid program, etc. but instead, the govt chooses to lower the standard, admit more people who don't necessarily qualify, and bump out the ones who do (i remember the hundreds of spm 10A holders who didn't get to the faculty of their choice? - this just means brain drain.... again)

Singapore was also mainly used to export all the rubber and tin robbed from the soil of Malaya. If you actually believe british left Malaya a gift, think 'thrice'

see my earlier thread. they left behind resources that made us the largest rubber and tin (the stuff you said they robbed from us) exporter in the world.

ok back to topic. apologize.

jinjoo talked about some economic union - i think it's something that's quite unlikely on the grounds that our economic base is built on the grounds (literally!) to compete *against* singapore - like you mentioned PTP against PSA. PTP (was very smart too) sucked away Maersk and Evergreen (the 2 largest shipping cos / investors)from keppel harbor and have their operations be based in johor. and now singapore's scrambling to diversify/specialize their operations and build a better brand against PTP. and now we watch them mudsling each other.

others like malaysia's intention to build the gas pipeline on Kra. this reads as a (another very smart) strategy to suffocate singapore. keppel's main operation is to conduct entreport on gas and petrol products between east and west, but if msia and thailand (the economic partner here) successfully implement this project, with better petrol distillers, docks, security, and capital, boom singapore will be finished.

mmm pineapples...

[el_empty]

oop was away a while.

Vernacular system - the traditional divide and conquer system - is more of a curse.

before i continue to discuss this, correct me if i'm wrong. wasn't the vernacular system something the british did not advocate? i mean vernacular schools ie chinese schools, tamil schools, were products of immigrants back then who were keen to preserve their own, like you said, syllabus and culture and language.



on a sidenote, their greatest gift is a good working education system, which we brutalized, reducing it to a complete failure.


British left a divided Malaya,
Malays in kampung, Chinese in the city, Indian in the estate.
Each race employed different syllabus.

I'm not sure in what way British give a good "working" education system. IMHO, it is British who "brutalize" Malaya and left us in the state of confusion.

now don't get me wrong. the british did a lot of bad things to us, but i also believed they left us some legacy that is very much beneficial to us too.

Just curious, in what way Malaysians "brutalize" the education system.?

hmm i thought that was something obvious. there're too many layers to view this, but some examples would be the system being overstepped by political and social pressure - just to take one example, the system hinges not on meritocracy, but quotas. hard work is the fundamental prerequisite to success - but the govt chooses to sideline that to achieve politicical/social points (they claim that it is to raise everybody to the same playing field). hence compromising education altogether.

it's not that the less endowed should not be helped. but i feel that there are other means of achieving this, like providing more funds into help centers, teacher salaries, financial aid program, etc. but instead, the govt chooses to lower the standard, admit more people who don't necessarily qualify, and bump out the ones who do (i remember the hundreds of spm 10A holders who didn't get to the faculty of their choice? - this just means brain drain.... again)

Singapore was also mainly used to export all the rubber and tin robbed from the soil of Malaya. If you actually believe british left Malaya a gift, think 'thrice'

see my earlier thread. they left behind resources that made us the largest rubber and tin (the stuff you said they robbed from us) exporter in the world.

ok back to topic. apologize.

jinjoo talked about some economic union - i think it's something that's quite unlikely on the grounds that our economic base is built on the grounds (literally!) to compete *against* singapore - like you mentioned PTP against PSA. PTP (was very smart too) sucked away Maersk and Evergreen (the 2 largest shipping cos / investors)from keppel harbor and have their operations be based in johor. and now singapore's scrambling to diversify/specialize their operations and build a better brand against PTP. and now we watch them mudsling each other.

others like malaysia's intention to build the gas pipeline on Kra. this reads as a (another very smart) strategy to suffocate singapore. keppel's main operation is to conduct entreport on gas and petrol products between east and west, but if msia and thailand (the economic partner here) successfully implement this project, with better petrol distillers, docks, security, and capital, boom singapore will be finished.

mmm pineapples...

[Thirdshifter]

I think you guys are giving the british too much credit here. We all know malacca was a port well before Any conquerer came here.

I'm pretty sure the poeple of Malaya would have figure out things on their own as well.

Maybe this world wouldve been a lot difference and more nicer, but thats the past. To go to the extent of saying british left us with a gift just blows me away.

Lets find one country that wasn't a british colony and see how they are doing today.. what about thailand? pretty much like Malaysia arent they? What about... Finland?

[Thirdshifter]

I think you guys are giving the british too much credit here. We all know malacca was a port well before Any conquerer came here.

I'm pretty sure the poeple of Malaya would have figure out things on their own as well.

Maybe this world wouldve been a lot difference and more nicer, but thats the past. To go to the extent of saying british left us with a gift just blows me away.

Lets find one country that wasn't a british colony and see how they are doing today.. what about thailand? pretty much like Malaysia arent they? What about... Finland?

[__earth]

before i continue to discuss this, correct me if i'm wrong. wasn't the vernacular system something the british did not advocate?

the british did allow it however.

but right now, i dont see how singapore gets into the picture. :D

[__earth]

before i continue to discuss this, correct me if i'm wrong. wasn't the vernacular system something the british did not advocate?

the british did allow it however.

but right now, i dont see how singapore gets into the picture. :D

[10-Joules]

Singapore was also mainly used to export all the rubber and tin robbed from the soil of Malaya. If you actually believe british left Malaya a gift, think 'thrice'

what's all this about stuff left behind by the british? come on lar, we've had our indepence for so many years now...and we still can't stop looking into our past and trying to fish out other peoples faults...why can't we just let old wounds heal? If we keep on looking into our past, then how will we find time to plan our future? Looking into past lessons to help us be more careful and well-informed when facing our future is normally a good thing, but i think men should also never forget keep looking forward and have their eyes peeled onto the road that they are threading on....try walking forward and looking backwards at the same time, you'll get what i mean when you come to a hole in the middle of the road.... :)

[10-Joules]

Singapore was also mainly used to export all the rubber and tin robbed from the soil of Malaya. If you actually believe british left Malaya a gift, think 'thrice'

what's all this about stuff left behind by the british? come on lar, we've had our indepence for so many years now...and we still can't stop looking into our past and trying to fish out other peoples faults...why can't we just let old wounds heal? If we keep on looking into our past, then how will we find time to plan our future? Looking into past lessons to help us be more careful and well-informed when facing our future is normally a good thing, but i think men should also never forget keep looking forward and have their eyes peeled onto the road that they are threading on....try walking forward and looking backwards at the same time, you'll get what i mean when you come to a hole in the middle of the road.... :)

[rafie]

yup, i agree with you. the important thing is now, and the future of course. we can also look at the past as a reference. we don't want some mistakes in the past to repeat right.
improving ourselves is what we have to do now. cause we cannot change the past anymore. but we can still change the future.
just a personal opinion. :wink:

[rafie]

yup, i agree with you. the important thing is now, and the future of course. we can also look at the past as a reference. we don't want some mistakes in the past to repeat right.
improving ourselves is what we have to do now. cause we cannot change the past anymore. but we can still change the future.
just a personal opinion. :wink:

[el_empty]

yeah i think we got a little carried away here and digressed...

but right now, i dont see how singapore gets into the picture.

basically to summarize, topic is about singapore, in which somebody mentioned that Singapore had become what it is today because of what british left them. and i claimed that it's an unfair statement for various reasons. and maybe the word "gift" is a little inaccurate, but it is some sort of endowment that is rather equivalent to what singapore received as well.

and then it went astray into the topic of colonization instead of singapore-msia relations. :( - so i guess i won't reply to _earth's stand that the british allowed for vernacular education, and their role in disintegrating malaysia.

ok no more british-malaysia-singapore whatevers.

[el_empty]

yeah i think we got a little carried away here and digressed...

but right now, i dont see how singapore gets into the picture.

basically to summarize, topic is about singapore, in which somebody mentioned that Singapore had become what it is today because of what british left them. and i claimed that it's an unfair statement for various reasons. and maybe the word "gift" is a little inaccurate, but it is some sort of endowment that is rather equivalent to what singapore received as well.

and then it went astray into the topic of colonization instead of singapore-msia relations. :( - so i guess i won't reply to _earth's stand that the british allowed for vernacular education, and their role in disintegrating malaysia.

ok no more british-malaysia-singapore whatevers.

[PeiWen]

IMHO, I think that there are several aspects we should learn and absorb from Singapore. First of all is their cleanliness. I'm sure this phenomena is pretty obvious and concrete, as most of the peolpe have thumbs up for Singapore regarding this. What I'm emphasizing here is the cleanliness of the public restrooms. Some more, they don't charge for the usage of public restrooms (toilets). In contrast, most of the public toilets in Malaysia are dirty yet we have to pay at least 20 cents to use the hardly cleaned, washed, maintained, pungent toilets. I guess many tourists have complaint about this and commented about this. I think government should really do something about it.

[PeiWen]

IMHO, I think that there are several aspects we should learn and absorb from Singapore. First of all is their cleanliness. I'm sure this phenomena is pretty obvious and concrete, as most of the peolpe have thumbs up for Singapore regarding this. What I'm emphasizing here is the cleanliness of the public restrooms. Some more, they don't charge for the usage of public restrooms (toilets). In contrast, most of the public toilets in Malaysia are dirty yet we have to pay at least 20 cents to use the hardly cleaned, washed, maintained, pungent toilets. I guess many tourists have complaint about this and commented about this. I think government should really do something about it.

[chenchow]

I would agree that we need to instill cleanliness among the citizen of Malaysia. I think it is very essential, not only for our own hygiene, but also for the health of everyone, not forgetting about the projection of good image of our country.

I agree with Peiwen that there are some aspects that we should learn from Singapore, but we need to do it not via mere law and enforcement. Remembering why chewing gum is banned in Singapore? It is because of the constant sticking of chewing gum at the door of MRT. Why? Because at that time, there wasn't any law preventing people from doing that. That was not very long ago, about 20 years ago only.

We have LRT runnings all around Klang Valley, but I don't think I ever see a LRT door got stuck, because of chewing gum. So, I think in this sense our awareness is slightly better.

On toilet in Malaysia, I think the public toilet along PLUS are pretty decent. Not sure it is because of the effects of the constant cleaning, or people have slightly more civic awareness when they use public toilet along expressway.

I would go for campaign to spread cleanliness awareness. And I think we all can help in this aspect. There are about 1400 members in ReCom! Say even if 30% of ReComers help in this, the results will be substantial. That would bee 420 people. And if each of us, ask 10 of our closest family members and friends, including ourselves to help do our parts, that would be 4200 people in effect already. That would be a good start, isn't it?

So, before we discuss further, we ourselves have to promise ourselves to always maintain cleanliness in public property, including not littering, and making sure any public property that we use remains at least at the same condition as we started using.

[chenchow]

I would agree that we need to instill cleanliness among the citizen of Malaysia. I think it is very essential, not only for our own hygiene, but also for the health of everyone, not forgetting about the projection of good image of our country.

I agree with Peiwen that there are some aspects that we should learn from Singapore, but we need to do it not via mere law and enforcement. Remembering why chewing gum is banned in Singapore? It is because of the constant sticking of chewing gum at the door of MRT. Why? Because at that time, there wasn't any law preventing people from doing that. That was not very long ago, about 20 years ago only.

We have LRT runnings all around Klang Valley, but I don't think I ever see a LRT door got stuck, because of chewing gum. So, I think in this sense our awareness is slightly better.

On toilet in Malaysia, I think the public toilet along PLUS are pretty decent. Not sure it is because of the effects of the constant cleaning, or people have slightly more civic awareness when they use public toilet along expressway.

I would go for campaign to spread cleanliness awareness. And I think we all can help in this aspect. There are about 1400 members in ReCom! Say even if 30% of ReComers help in this, the results will be substantial. That would bee 420 people. And if each of us, ask 10 of our closest family members and friends, including ourselves to help do our parts, that would be 4200 people in effect already. That would be a good start, isn't it?

So, before we discuss further, we ourselves have to promise ourselves to always maintain cleanliness in public property, including not littering, and making sure any public property that we use remains at least at the same condition as we started using.

[lilet]

I fully agree with what Chenchow said. In Singapore, the laws and regulations make a large difference to bring out the 'clean' image that they have right now. Unlike Malaysia, Singapore is a relatively small country whereby the citizens can be controlled effectively through enforcements. Won't really help much in Malaysia, I suppose.

But even then, there are also flaws in the Singaporean society. Having been living in Singapore for the last three months did open my eyes to the bits and pieces of rubbish lying along the roads. Not as spectacular of what I usually see in my hometown, Klang, but substantial enough from the very well-known as law abiding Singaporeans. I recall my boarding-master's wife admitting that most of this cleanliness is actually contributed to the cleaners, not the citizens themselves.

Generally though, I find that most Singaporean, or rather, Singaporean students from my perspective, are well mannered enough to observe cleanliness where ever they go, should it be washrooms, cafeterias and places outside school. IMHO, it is largely due to their strict upbringing by parents often described as ?kiasu? as they want their children to be the best in everything. Maintaining cleanliness has changed from just being an effort to an automatic daily practice for them. Somehow, it does help. Yup, it?s the mindset that matters, more importantly, the parents?. I still remember from last year the disconcerting image of primary school children in my school bus throwing out food-wrappers with such flair? :D

Mostly, I still feel that this kind of awareness should come from the heart, not just due to the enforcement of laws alone. One should fully realise the importance of cleanliness, not just for themselves but also for their society and country. We also have to learn to appreciate our surroundings and be thankful for what we have. Unfortunately, that is the main thing modern Malaysian citizens lack.

[lilet]

I fully agree with what Chenchow said. In Singapore, the laws and regulations make a large difference to bring out the 'clean' image that they have right now. Unlike Malaysia, Singapore is a relatively small country whereby the citizens can be controlled effectively through enforcements. Won't really help much in Malaysia, I suppose.

But even then, there are also flaws in the Singaporean society. Having been living in Singapore for the last three months did open my eyes to the bits and pieces of rubbish lying along the roads. Not as spectacular of what I usually see in my hometown, Klang, but substantial enough from the very well-known as law abiding Singaporeans. I recall my boarding-master's wife admitting that most of this cleanliness is actually contributed to the cleaners, not the citizens themselves.

Generally though, I find that most Singaporean, or rather, Singaporean students from my perspective, are well mannered enough to observe cleanliness where ever they go, should it be washrooms, cafeterias and places outside school. IMHO, it is largely due to their strict upbringing by parents often described as ?kiasu? as they want their children to be the best in everything. Maintaining cleanliness has changed from just being an effort to an automatic daily practice for them. Somehow, it does help. Yup, it?s the mindset that matters, more importantly, the parents?. I still remember from last year the disconcerting image of primary school children in my school bus throwing out food-wrappers with such flair? :D

Mostly, I still feel that this kind of awareness should come from the heart, not just due to the enforcement of laws alone. One should fully realise the importance of cleanliness, not just for themselves but also for their society and country. We also have to learn to appreciate our surroundings and be thankful for what we have. Unfortunately, that is the main thing modern Malaysian citizens lack.

[ElansarGelmir]

There are many funny stuffs that we can find in Singapore's toilet. In order to maintain the toilet's cleaniness, i find most toilets have posters and cartoons about keeping the toilet clean. There's this one toilet at an MRT station where they out little toy frogs with the words "JUST SHOOT ME" in the urinal bowl. Kinda funny, but perhaps, effective. Btw, Singapore's toilets are not only clean, they don't even charge us for using them....

[ElansarGelmir]

There are many funny stuffs that we can find in Singapore's toilet. In order to maintain the toilet's cleaniness, i find most toilets have posters and cartoons about keeping the toilet clean. There's this one toilet at an MRT station where they out little toy frogs with the words "JUST SHOOT ME" in the urinal bowl. Kinda funny, but perhaps, effective. Btw, Singapore's toilets are not only clean, they don't even charge us for using them....

[mystique_jasper]

There are many funny stuffs that we can find in Singapore's toilet. In order to maintani the toilet's cleaniness, i find most toilets have posters and cartoons about keeping the toilet clean. There's this one toilet at an MRT station where they out little toy frogs with the words "JUST SHOOT ME" in the urinal bowl. Kinda funny, but perhaps, effective. Btw, Singapore's toilets are not only clean, they don't even charge us for using them....

Yeap, i agree with ElansarGelmir's opinion. Singapore is indeed a clean country. The toilet cleaner than our country's. So, cleanliness is what we should learn from Singaporean.

[Ic3b3rg]

There are about 1400 members in ReCom! Say even if 30% of ReComers help in this, the results will be substantial. That would bee 420 people. And if each of us, ask 10 of our closest family members and friends, including ourselves to help do our parts, that would be 4200 people in effect already. That would be a good start, isn't it?

very true..... in fact that is the true mission of RECOM.... to unite young Malaysians to improve and develop Malaysia.... in the political, social and economical scene......
perhaps if all of us remember this mission, then we can be the clean country our neighbor is.....
without compromising on the little "freedoms" that we have...such as eating chewing gum....

[ElansarGelmir]

I think the reason why Singapore is much better off than Malaysia is because the people there are very hardworking. I'm not saying that all Malaysians are hardworking, there are some, but it's kind of little. After being separated from Malaysia, the SIngaporeans found themselves left with nothing - no resources, no water, no forest, no anything - except for themselves. So they become their very own resources. They have to fully utilize themselves for the developement of their nation, that's why they cannot afford to selamba ... That's why singapore is good in its services and professionals...

Malaysia could be better also if everyone's hardworking, in lieu of waiting for the government to spoon feed them throughout their lives (since Malaysia is rich with its resources).

[lilet]

Yup, very true indeed. Singaporeans are generally very, very hardworking, unlike the major proportion of Malaysians. I find that this situation is very similiar to Hong Kong too. I went to HK once, and I find the atmosphere there quite pressured. 8O Not as in they have high air pressure in HK, but the people there gives me an eerie feeling like they are almost like robots, who live only to work. Dunno why, but that feeling I got, is still stuck in my mind... :D

Is it good or not good to actually have a society like this - work all day only... Surely, balancing between work and play must be adequate, or else definitely will go 3 1/4! :lol: Don't like that kind of hardworking life at all, I'm a very lazy person~! :)

[ElansarGelmir]

Most Malaysians are still comfortable with the misleading notion that it's the British who gave Singapore what it has today. In reality, these people work hard for it, and i believe that they deserve whatever they have it with them today.

[Randomphantom]

HK and singapore are very competitive environments, (HK moreso) where people are expected to perform well and work long hours on end. This translates to more stress, which is why you hear SG students commiting suicide when they fail to live up to society's expectations. I believe they are also more aggressive... 'kiasu' comes to mind.
Will our culture fit in? 'don worry, apa pun boleh-lah!'[/url]

[ElansarGelmir]

HK and singapore are very competitive environments, (HK moreso) where people are expected to perform well and work long hours on end. This translates to more stress, which is why you hear SG students commiting suicide when they fail to live up to society's expectations. I believe they are also more aggressive... 'kiasu' comes to mind.
Will our culture fit in? 'don worry, apa pun boleh-lah!'[/url]

Yeah, 2 JC students commited suicide last year . . . 1 from my school, the other from Raffles . . .

[aquila]

Not from HC? I thought HC's the real killer JC

[ElansarGelmir]

Not from HC? I thought HC's the real killer JC
Not this time kua ... Maybe the students are "keng" enough to cope up with the stress of winning Raffles in everything... Hehe.

[Randomphantom]

Lately having gone through half of the Singapore Story by LKY (its heavy!)I can say that it made an illuminating read. Btw free your mind of any prejudices and finger pointing before reading. Definitely controversial stuff.

[noneedname]

letter from friend ------------




他從小在美國生活，特別是在復雜多樣的紐約成長，自由就如氧氣的存在般自然，見多不怪。弔詭的是，像他這種人，卻常常批評美國不夠自由，罵政府種族主義。他不能想像在地球上有許多國家，華裔人口比例比美國華裔人口比例多得太多，但政府諸多為難華人，華裔商家的招牌中文字不能太大、華裔生考全Ａ都很難拿政府獎學金出國深造；還有，對印尼排華現象表示多一點點的同情，都會遭政府“勸告”不要太激動，老百姓的感情與情緒政府也企圖規範，這種國度的華裔與媒體，當然連公開罵政府種族主義的自由都沒有。

紐約人種復雜，文化多元，各類移民人權組織多不勝數。美國政府對各種移民活動的寬容與她的自信不無關係。沒有自信的人，不只敏感，而且小心眼。但怪就怪在許多政府對自己沒有自信也罷，還強逼人家愛他，自己卻從不反省是否對得起別人的愛。要人愛國，就不能把別人當二等三等公民對待，這不是簡單道理嗎？

國家興衰，與各階層各領域的領袖有關。領袖必須正確領導，還要有鞠躬盡瘁的絕偉人格，沒有高度感召力，焉能撥亂反正安邦定國？歷史許多吒叱風雲一時的領袖，其共同點莫不是能在關鍵時刻表現犧牲精神。一些國家永遠偉大不起來，因為有太多領袖不敢講真話，只會自吹自擂。

[jiinjoo]

Please respect the other users of this forum. If you were to post anything in other languages, please translate it or at least summaries it in English. Thanks!

Anyway, I don't see how this is related with My/Sg relationship - care to elaborate?

[pandaboy]

noneedname posted the same post in 9 other threads...i dunno what he/she is up to. I've deleted the other post and sent a PM as a warning to him/her. I hope he/she will elaborate on this one.

[coolstudy]

Do you have any idea why Singapore is almost the first world country or 20 years better than Malaysia?

Because all the brainy Malaysian Chinese end up in Singapore providing the super manpower they have needed and Malaysia has wanted them to fail at all cost. My brother is one of the brainy guys who refuse to work in Malaysia. My best friend who is top of the class is now in Australia.

If Malaysia would take us Chinese as Malaysian. We would have been like Singapore.

The newest brain drain is Malaysian Chinese going to China. Any company in Malaysia and Singapore who has a factory or business in China is taking everyone up. My friend who is getting a fair income of RM3000 as an accountant, is paid RM12000 in China.

Why - Malaysian Chinese are able to speak in Mandarin and English. These provide them the bridge between locals and offshore companies communication channel.

So most Malaysian Chinese are of capable in China at the moment.

[jiinjoo]

Because all the brainy Malaysian Chinese end up in Singapore providing the super manpower they have needed and Malaysia has wanted them to fail at all cost.
Everyone has their right to seek a better life.

One thing no one noticed a lot is that S'pore has that same racism in their choosing. Given a Malay and a Chinese of equal capabilities, they would choose the Chinese over the Malay, claiming that they will settle in better and have less cultural barrier.

Why - Malaysian Chinese are able to speak in Mandarin and English. These provide them the bridge between locals and offshore companies communication channel.

So all Malaysian Chinese are of capable in China at the moment.
Stereotype!

Not all Malaysian Chinese can speak mandarin. Not even half can still write Chinese characters. In Malaysia there has been many generations of Chinese immigrants from all over the place and some of them adopted the local culture so well that they dicthed their customs, some including the language itself. Many probably can still converse in their basic dialect and your everyday normal speech, but to ask of them to communicate in a business / engineering setting in mainland China?

[gohweihan]

Why - Malaysian Chinese are able to speak in Mandarin and English. These provide them the bridge between locals and offshore companies communication channel.

So all Malaysian Chinese are of capable in China at the moment.

Don't generalize too much - I don't speak Mandarin, although I do speak English better than most people in Malaysia. This alone is enough to prove your assumption wrong.

And as for Malaysia deliberately wanting to see the Chinese community fail, it is without doubt that you're viewing it from an extreme point of view. The nation as it is would never want to see it's people fail. It's the way the people on top do things, and their agendas that requires the Chinese to be capped in order for them to succeed.

Therefore, I hope you would post with consideration to the distinct separation between the country, racial groups, politics and the government.

[the-model-racist-nation]

Moderator action: *Deleted due to imflammatory nature*

Stop trolling...We know who you are...

[Shoblast]

One thing i admire about the Singaporean education system though, is its Physical Ed. The schools there really force the students to run, and do push-ups, chin-ups, etc. I do not know if this is the case in the rest of Malaysia, but i do know that it is definately not practised from the school i came from. The result? A batch of Singaporean students that have a fitter body, in general more so that Malaysians. Barring those who have asthma and those, who have "asthma". I do not know if this is true elsewhere, but that is my general observation in Melbourne.

[Thirdshifter]

One thing i admire about the Singaporean education system though, is its Physical Ed. The schools there really force the students to run, and do push-ups, chin-ups, etc. I do not know if this is the case in the rest of Malaysia, but i do know that it is definately not practised from the school i came from. The result? A batch of Singaporean students that have a fitter body, in general more so that Malaysians. Barring those who have asthma and those, who have "asthma". I do not know if this is true elsewhere, but that is my general observation in Melbourne.

I think its just you that have been lazy!

Anyways i remember getting to school 25 minutes late and the punishment was to run 1,500 KM or 50 Push ups.

However Gym class was pretty much just soccer and more soccer.

[trojan209]

One thing i admire about the Singaporean education system though, is its Physical Ed. The schools there really force the students to run, and do push-ups, chin-ups, etc. I do not know if this is the case in the rest of Malaysia, but i do know that it is definately not practised from the school i came from. The result? A batch of Singaporean students that have a fitter body, in general more so that Malaysians. Barring those who have asthma and those, who have "asthma". I do not know if this is true elsewhere, but that is my general observation in Melbourne.

I think its just you that have been lazy!

Anyways i remember getting to school 25 minutes late and the punishment was to run 1,500 KM or 50 Push ups.

However Gym class was pretty much just soccer and more soccer.


wwoooaaaa.......did ur teacher punish u to run from malaysia to the border of india or just run around the peninsular for 2 times?

50 push ups is nothing compared to 1,500km running.... :lol: :lol:

[youngyew]

One thing i admire about the Singaporean education system though, is its Physical Ed. The schools there really force the students to run, and do push-ups, chin-ups, etc. I do not know if this is the case in the rest of Malaysia, but i do know that it is definately not practised from the school i came from. The result? A batch of Singaporean students that have a fitter body, in general more so that Malaysians. Barring those who have asthma and those, who have "asthma". I do not know if this is true elsewhere, but that is my general observation in Melbourne.

I think its just you that have been lazy!

Anyways i remember getting to school 25 minutes late and the punishment was to run 1,500 KM or 50 Push ups.

However Gym class was pretty much just soccer and more soccer.


wwoooaaaa.......did ur teacher punish u to run from malaysia to the border of india or just run around the peninsular for 2 times?

50 push ups is nothing compared to 1,500km running.... :lol: :lol:
Haha, what a typo. :)

Anyway, 1500 km isn't equivalent to running around the peninsular for 2 times... THe journey from the northern border to the southern border alone is about 900km, so 1500km is less than one full trip around the peninsular. :)

[Shoblast]

*scratches head*Well, could be i was just lazy.

But i still think a school enforced fitness program would do youths much good. When you let students play whatever sport they like, some will tend to just fade away somewhere, only to reappear when PE classes are over.

[eslite]

The fitness programme doesn't do much good. People just train for that one month to pass the exam, or think up of various reasons to get permanent exemption from the programme (in my school, each class has a person exempted due to various medical illness).

And from another point of view, people who are physically unfit frequently becomes the topic of insulting jokes.

[dogol]

Yo,

Why Malaysian v Singaporean? Why are they more advance? Why compare?

To the admin who was kinda against the British, I challenge you to look at the history books again written by Malaysian, of course. Not why the British took over Malaya but HOW did they do it. Mostly are because within the royal families are fighting over something, whether it was for the throne, territories or even tax (money). Because of this problematic bunch, the British were then able to take advantage of the situation.

We are only being taught how the British control malaya but can't you guys look at the other side of the coin? Rather than blaming them for controlling the country, why don't you question yourself how did they do it? I remembered that mostly was from somewhat peaceful dealings - no war was involved. Only those who are at the disadvantage resist, which end up as one of the Pahlawan yang Menentang Britsh in our history books. Don't you think it is kind of funny?

About the Singaporean part, LKY was critical about the racial issue, but he has balls compare to most of the current ministers in Malaysia when speaking out his mind. If he was a pyscho, I won't see us Malaysians now comparing with our neighbours in every aspect all the time. You don't do that against an inferior country. But if you do know about history, our Dr M. was actually being sacked from UMNO by Tunku himself for being an ultra conservative person.

Sorry for my spelling error and grammer mistake as I worte this in a hurry. Racial problem was never the issue but it was the policies (NEP) that divides all of us.

dogol

[WinnieH]

malaysia and singapore are two very different countries.

one is huge and another is smaller than johor. so, all in all, it's understandable that it is easier to handle a smaller country than a mammoth one.

[vseehua]

compared to other world powers malaysia can be considered quite small...

it's just that the politics here is too biased...

and the lack of enforcement and corruption among the enforcers that makes the difference...

[johnleemk]

Malaysia has oil. Where has all the Petronas money gone? We have 5 times the people Singapore has, why don't we have 5 times the number of intellectuals, academics, or general smartasses?

[__earth]

Malaysia has oil. Where has all the Petronas money gone? We have 5 times the people Singapore has, why don't we have 5 times the number of intellectuals, academics, or general smartasses?

because spore is stealing our ppl?

er, jiinjoo, are you here? =p

[nalgene87]

Malaysia has oil. Where has all the Petronas money gone? We have 5 times the people Singapore has, why don't we have 5 times the number of intellectuals, academics, or general smartasses?

because spore is stealing our ppl?

er, jiinjoo, are you here? =p

It's not that spore is stealing our ppl... it's because m'sia is stupid enough not to do anything to stop the brain drain. A classic example is the JPA scholarship. Ppl who take on the scholarship are supposed to return to serve the country. But how many actually do? And what did our government do? Close one eye and pretend nothing happen. They should bring those people to court. Seriously. Shame on them.

[andrewlza]

malaysia doesn't like educated people.

these intellectuals spew heresy against the government (which is holy and immaculate and always right and can never do anything wrong) and spread liberal propaganda and discuss sensitive issues and question the (god forbid!) social contract and whisper about racial equality and slam the nepotism and selective enrichment schemes inside political circles and espouse egalitarian doctrines and human rights and social justice.

trouble makers, these intelligensia.

malaysia can't have them enlightening the masses now, can it?

ignorant people are much easier to control.

[johnleemk]

But aren't Singaporeans mentally straitjacketed in a similar manner?

[DecentMerson]

But aren't Singaporeans mentally straitjacketed in a similar manner?

right on...

[Thirdshifter]

But aren't Singaporeans mentally straitjacketed in a similar manner?

right on...

but.. they're all chinese.. so they dont have to be sensitive, thats IMHO the crucial difference.

If singapore was to be 45% Malay and 55% chinese the situation could be very well terbalik.

[digimushu]

Malaysia has oil. Where has all the Petronas money gone? We have 5 times the people Singapore has, why don't we have 5 times the number of intellectuals, academics, or general smartasses?

because spore is stealing our ppl?

er, jiinjoo, are you here? =p

It's not that spore is stealing our ppl... it's because m'sia is stupid enough not to do anything to stop the brain drain. A classic example is the JPA scholarship. Ppl who take on the scholarship are supposed to return to serve the country. But how many actually do? And what did our government do? Close one eye and pretend nothing happen. They should bring those people to court. Seriously. Shame on them.

I agree with you. The government should go after these people, and their guarantors as well. Those who do not pay their PTPTN loans and MARA loans should be held accountable as well, especially government funded medical students.

[digimushu]

Malaysia has oil. Where has all the Petronas money gone? We have 5 times the people Singapore has, why don't we have 5 times the number of intellectuals, academics, or general smartasses?

We do, they just dont see the point of coming back. In the US, i have met Malaysians who are great professors(in that they can teach and do research at the same time, equally well).

It is not an issue of purely brain drain, but mostly because of the treatment of acadmics in M'sia. Our universities have so tight a leash on them that the moment they try to challenge MOHE, they get hit with the crapstick. Think of what happened to the VC of UPM when he challenged Shafie's decision to move engineering departments from UPM to UKM.

Judging by everything, personally, I would not bother to apply for an academic position in M'sia either. There is no future for R&D in m'sia as long as everyone in the government wants a piece of the pie.

[vseehua]

the problem is that the university is also subjected to the same bureaucratic as the normal public services..

and there are too much politics involved in the administration...the classis example will the aerospace case...when you oppose, you are out...

the promotion system is really crap man...no recognition of intellectualism, just the fact that the longer you work, the higher the post you get, no matter how little you contributed to the scientific community...

[Hoong]

There's no use of forcing those people home for that few years since they aren't gonna feel happy and passionate about their jobs and would end up contributing little, if not nothing, to the country. And, once the contract is up, they are going to leave for somewhere else, where their efforts and talents are appreciated.

Rather, I suggest that proactive changes are made. Some sort of reform in the academic that gears towards a conducive research environment and a fair rewarding system should be done (a drastic salary change is not a priority; as long as scientists get pay reasonably well, most of them usually care more about their research than their salaries).

I believe that most Malaysians abroad are very proud of their Malaysian identity and love the country, the people, the culture and the food at home. They are very passionate about serving the country with the expertise they gain from overseas. However, when we talk about the ability to provide job satisfaction, jobs at home usually fall way too short unfortunately.

And I think Malaysia and Singapore both have their goods and bads. It's not very useful to blindly defend or avidly advocate either of the countries. Rather, this discussion is a powerful platform for us to realize and learn good things from other countries and at the same time understand and reinforce our strength.

[nalgene87]

the promotion system is really crap man...no recognition of intellectualism, just the fact that the longer you work, the higher the post you get, no matter how little you contributed to the scientific community...

The promotion system isnt even based on the length of your job... it's based more on your skin colour, your political connections, your affluence... yes, you get me. If you are a bit brown, rich and whose father or mother is this and that, yeah congrats! You can at least have the chance to occupy a senior position and set a path for the universities in Malaysia. Thus, it is of no surprise actually that UM is actually ranked 169th... LOL... Look at the people governing our universities and compare them to other vice-chancellors at the great institutions around the world, let's just say NUS and you can immediately see the difference. NUS's president Prof Shih previously holds an appointment from Harvard.

And when such "meritocracy" happens, are you sure that someone who have gotten a PhD from those "brand name" schools would want to work in the local unis? I have checked out the professors' CV at our beloved UNiversity of Malaya and for example, the Dean of Economics graduated from University of Liverpool... wad?! perhaps she was a big fan of Liverpool in those days. The other deans graduated from Mississippi State University, North Carolina State University and some even University of Malaya!! If you guys do not know, NUS does not employ their own graduates. That is, if you get a PhD from NUS, NUS will not employ you as a professor... and I think this is justifiable IMO. You need someone who comes from other good schools to teach/guide the students so that the professor can actually adopt good methodologies he/she encountered in other unis.

[johnleemk]

My father was a lecturer from NTU who resigned to come home. He applied for a post at UKM, where the head of department immediately accepted him. Later, his acceptance was ditarik balik because the higher-ups wanted a Bumi to teach. Universiti Kebangsaan Malaysia -- it's about bangsa, not Malaysia.

[vseehua]

i don't think the qualification from other universities is important, it's the profile and the experience of the profs that are important...have a look at their profile, i doubt there are any who hadg good enough credits to their names...in terms of research, publications in journals...

[Thirdshifter]

My father was a lecturer from NTU who resigned to come home. He applied for a post at UKM, where the head of department immediately accepted him. Later, his acceptance was ditarik balik because the higher-ups wanted a Bumi to teach. Universiti Kebangsaan Malaysia -- it's about bangsa, not Malaysia.

thats bullshit... i mean in a way that thats messed up..

[vseehua]

going back on their words...hmm...not good...haiz...i demand to change the admin immediately...

[coolstudy]

Many countries have tried to develop an IT industry much earlier, and with more and better resources and better government than us Malaysia, and have not succeeded.

The chance of us succeeding given our handicaps was never good and will never be good. It begins with poor politics, then poor government, then poor education, and then poor business environment (e.g. small market).

What is remarkable to me is that some people have managed to make good money and build companies despite our problems - Mobif, Jobstreet, Green Packet, etc. These people proof that the government is more in the way for developing the industry than helping it.

In fact, the government would do better to get out of the way rather actually have any sort of grand plan like MSC. The real only way the government can help is by having open competitive bidding in government procurement of IT and putting competent people in charge of that.

Nothing else they do would really mean anything much. I would argue all the spending on grand projects, computer labs, computer courses etc, amount to basically waste.

There is no hope of the MSC really succeeding, but we can still benefit from better IT and that perhaps is, would be better because at least it means less waste.

The truth is there - it is no real strategy. MSC was never a great idea - it was an opportunity for government spending more than anything else and as Bill Gates told us very politely, it would not work because of that.

A couple of years ago, there was this idea of attracting Malaysians overseas to come back to run Malaysia GLCs. Among my extensive overseas network of business and personal associates abroad, they discussed it and unanimously shot down the idea.

The reason? Quote: "Smart people can't stand inconsistencies in fact they rely on it. Malaysia politics make things too inconsistent to do the kind of work they do."

You want to know why they will never attract the best in public service? At one time, we all agreed what the future of Malaysia was and will always be - secular, rule of law, multiracial, meritocracy. Today, even among those in power, there is no agreement on these basic things.

Why would the best people subject themselves to these inconsistencies? Maybe naivety but how long will that last and how many?

For every one brain that comes in, fifty brains will leave the country. With the affirmative policies in place, do not talk about attracting the brain. For decades, Malaysia was losing its best peoples to developed countries and taking rejects from developing countries.

Please forget about bring back those lost brains, while we can keep those bright students now and love them and care for them!

First, the government and country has to figure out what it want to be first before it can really retain the best, otherwise we are merely exploiting those who do not have better choices elsewhere.

I still remember of my junior wanted to serve in our Malaysia air force and he was able to design war fighters, but instead he was not retained, he headed south Singapore and he was happily married down there, has a happy family and no way back!

People with the best brains inadvertently mean they know how to think. Therefore they are wise enough not to choose Malaysia as their destination, as it could spell disaster to their reputation as we work differently. Singapore will still be the ideal landing point of such calibre people.

Malaysia will forever be suffering from a massive "brain drain" so long as the Umno-led government keeps in place the malay agenda. To forego the agenda is too costly sacrifice which the Umno-malays cannot make. A clear symptom of an inferiority complex.

[janewai]

Malaysia has oil. Where has all the Petronas money gone? We have 5 times the people Singapore has, why don't we have 5 times the number of intellectuals, academics, or general smartasses?

because spore is stealing our ppl?

er, jiinjoo, are you here? =p

It's not that spore is stealing our ppl... it's because m'sia is stupid enough not to do anything to stop the brain drain. A classic example is the JPA scholarship. Ppl who take on the scholarship are supposed to return to serve the country. But how many actually do? And what did our government do? Close one eye and pretend nothing happen. They should bring those people to court. Seriously. Shame on them.

The problem is the govenrment cannot provide as many works as the number of students they send off to study overseas.

It was written in the contract that if the government cannot provide jobs within 6 months, then the students are off from the contract.

[PJKru]

This is a really sick situation malaysia is facing. Let me put this to you. malaysia spends 300000 rm on educating three electronic engineers in the uk. when they come back home there are no jobs for any of them. What happens next is that they all get job offers from the uk to come back and work. eventually they all get married to a brit and change nationality. To summarize this situation malaysia has spent 1 million ringitt of tax payers money to educate three brits. This kind of situation must be more common than we know. We've got to find a way to put a stop to it. That one million ringitt should go to people who have definetely got job offers. no questions asked. Maybe we should keep more money for loans. But then if i was poor i'd want to have a scholarship. But we can give schloarships to students wanting to study at malaysian universities. and loans wanting to study abroad except for the most vital positions. But then if i was poor, i'd want to have a chance of getting a scholarship.