Rumsfeld caught lying on camera hahaha

[topdog]

Many of you have probably seen this, but for those that have not, the link below is to a video clip of part of Donald Rumsfeld's grilling session on Face the Nation. I found the link on fark.com so I assume it should be fairly recent.

It shows Rumsfeld denying that he or Dubya ever used the phrase "immediate threat" as an excuse to attack Iraq. He was so confident that he even dared the hosts to "produce citations" of what he called "folklore" perpetuated by the media.

He was caught pretty much with his pants down when the hosts duly showed 2 quotes where Rumsfeld said exactly that.

Them Republicans ain't very bright, aye?

http://www.moveon.org/censure/caughtonvideo/

[topdog]

Many of you have probably seen this, but for those that have not, the link below is to a video clip of part of Donald Rumsfeld's grilling session on Face the Nation. I found the link on fark.com so I assume it should be fairly recent.

It shows Rumsfeld denying that he or Dubya ever used the phrase "immediate threat" as an excuse to attack Iraq. He was so confident that he even dared the hosts to "produce citations" of what he called "folklore" perpetuated by the media.

He was caught pretty much with his pants down when the hosts duly showed 2 quotes where Rumsfeld said exactly that.

Them Republicans ain't very bright, aye?

http://www.moveon.org/censure/caughtonvideo/

[masterof_none]

I guess that's the price of having 'too much democracy',
that the President and any government officials can say anything they want, even though it might be lies.

This is what the dilemma of democracy is all about.

Freedom of speech, doesn't mean, we can say anything we want.
Freedom of speech is just an 'ideal', that ensures everyone can speak.
But letting everyone speak their mind, doesn't mean that we can say whatever we want without taking into account of the impact of the speech and action to the economy and the country.

I would prefer changing this thread to the
"Democracy as we believe ..."
and look at the world's democracy today so that we can learn something.

The Next example would be South Korean's political chaos.
To get a bigger picture : read here:
http://economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2513206

Many Malaysians claim that our country's democracy is not good, or simply doesn't meet the standard. Do you think this is true?. that our 'hard' democracy is always bad?... why do you think it's bad and why do you think it's good?.

Can we come up with the solution based on what we learn today?

Hope we can explore our own definition of 'democracy' in this thread.

the practical solutions are what we want.

[masterof_none]

I guess that's the price of having 'too much democracy',
that the President and any government officials can say anything they want, even though it might be lies.

This is what the dilemma of democracy is all about.

Freedom of speech, doesn't mean, we can say anything we want.
Freedom of speech is just an 'ideal', that ensures everyone can speak.
But letting everyone speak their mind, doesn't mean that we can say whatever we want without taking into account of the impact of the speech and action to the economy and the country.

I would prefer changing this thread to the
"Democracy as we believe ..."
and look at the world's democracy today so that we can learn something.

The Next example would be South Korean's political chaos.
To get a bigger picture : read here:
http://economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2513206

Many Malaysians claim that our country's democracy is not good, or simply doesn't meet the standard. Do you think this is true?. that our 'hard' democracy is always bad?... why do you think it's bad and why do you think it's good?.

Can we come up with the solution based on what we learn today?

Hope we can explore our own definition of 'democracy' in this thread.

the practical solutions are what we want.

[topdog]

Huh? That wasn't what I had in mind at all. I think, if anything, this clip actually shows democracy at work in America. Doesn't it show Rumsfeld being taken to task for basically saying anything he wanted at the height of the post-Sept 11 rage?

Taking, for example, Malaysia, do you think a high-profile politician would ever be grilled like that on national TV if he/she lied to the public?

Maybe you could start a new thread for discussion of pros/cons of democracy if you want to. I don't think this thread is suitable for that at all, since the video clip itself shows democracy at work.:)

[topdog]

Huh? That wasn't what I had in mind at all. I think, if anything, this clip actually shows democracy at work in America. Doesn't it show Rumsfeld being taken to task for basically saying anything he wanted at the height of the post-Sept 11 rage?

Taking, for example, Malaysia, do you think a high-profile politician would ever be grilled like that on national TV if he/she lied to the public?

Maybe you could start a new thread for discussion of pros/cons of democracy if you want to. I don't think this thread is suitable for that at all, since the video clip itself shows democracy at work.:)

Who decides if a speech is a lie or not? Unfortunately, there's no God to decide and censor the truth from lie.

Freedom of speech, working in the ideal way, allows us, as an individual, to hear a diverse view of opinions and decide for ourselves what makes the most sense.

The reason we're seeing so many flaws highlighted in this current administration (and every US administration in the past) is due to intensive media scrutiny and freedom of speech by the media and public. No Malaysian politician will be able to survive a grilling session like "Face the Nation" The main reason we don't see the many flaws in our leaders (in Malaysia) is because the local media just heaps praises on them (based on my reading on the MCA mouthpiece, the Star - maybe some other papers are more critical)

To give you an example, Mahathir complained that CNN used "dirty tactics" by disallowing him the ?opportunity to give proper answers?. The local media and TV stations published only Mahathir's comments and did not even publish the actual CNN interview.

If you're curious, the link to the CNN interview is http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0205/16/i_qaa.01.html

You can judge for yourself whether Mahathir was given an opportunity to give proper answers or not.

Who decides if a speech is a lie or not? Unfortunately, there's no God to decide and censor the truth from lie.

Freedom of speech, working in the ideal way, allows us, as an individual, to hear a diverse view of opinions and decide for ourselves what makes the most sense.

The reason we're seeing so many flaws highlighted in this current administration (and every US administration in the past) is due to intensive media scrutiny and freedom of speech by the media and public. No Malaysian politician will be able to survive a grilling session like "Face the Nation" The main reason we don't see the many flaws in our leaders (in Malaysia) is because the local media just heaps praises on them (based on my reading on the MCA mouthpiece, the Star - maybe some other papers are more critical)

To give you an example, Mahathir complained that CNN used "dirty tactics" by disallowing him the ?opportunity to give proper answers?. The local media and TV stations published only Mahathir's comments and did not even publish the actual CNN interview.

If you're curious, the link to the CNN interview is http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0205/16/i_qaa.01.html

You can judge for yourself whether Mahathir was given an opportunity to give proper answers or not.

This is an excerpt from the interview.

VERJEE: There are also reports that suggest that you've been rather violent in the way you're treating the illegal immigrants.

MOHAMMAD: Yes, that is the usual.

VERJEE: . brutal about the whole manner in which you're.

MOHAMMAD: We go around hammering everybody, as you can see. You are welcome to go and see these people being hammered. It's open.

VERJEE: You seem to take offense in a way at some of the criticisms that are leveled to you, both in this instance as well as earlier -- we were speaking about the Internal Security Act, about Anwar Ibrahim. Obviously it's a sore spot with you, a sensitive issue, that you keep addressing.

Why do you think so much criticism is leveled at you if there is no truth to it at all?

MOHAMMAD: Because we criticize people who tell lies, tell lies about us. And because of that, they get very angry.

For example, two newspapers keep on repeating, every time they mention Malaysia, they say, "where the press is controlled by the government." And yet, those newspapers, "The Herald Tribune" and "The Asian Wall Street Journal," are printed in Malaysia, distributed in Malaysia, and in the region, and we have never, never censored them or touched them. And yet, they say "where the press is controlled." And they refuse to see that there are so many newspapers in Malaysia which condemn the government.

This is an excerpt from the interview.

VERJEE: There are also reports that suggest that you've been rather violent in the way you're treating the illegal immigrants.

MOHAMMAD: Yes, that is the usual.

VERJEE: . brutal about the whole manner in which you're.

MOHAMMAD: We go around hammering everybody, as you can see. You are welcome to go and see these people being hammered. It's open.

VERJEE: You seem to take offense in a way at some of the criticisms that are leveled to you, both in this instance as well as earlier -- we were speaking about the Internal Security Act, about Anwar Ibrahim. Obviously it's a sore spot with you, a sensitive issue, that you keep addressing.

Why do you think so much criticism is leveled at you if there is no truth to it at all?

MOHAMMAD: Because we criticize people who tell lies, tell lies about us. And because of that, they get very angry.

For example, two newspapers keep on repeating, every time they mention Malaysia, they say, "where the press is controlled by the government." And yet, those newspapers, "The Herald Tribune" and "The Asian Wall Street Journal," are printed in Malaysia, distributed in Malaysia, and in the region, and we have never, never censored them or touched them. And yet, they say "where the press is controlled." And they refuse to see that there are so many newspapers in Malaysia which condemn the government.

Another excerpt (did Mahathir lie in the first two questions?)

VERJEE: Why would you arrest, put political opponents, in jail.

MOHAMMAD: I don't.

VERJEE: Why would you detain them without trial.

MOHAMMAD: I don't.

VERJEE: . without due process.

MOHAMMAD: Which political opponent?

VERJEE: There are six opposition members that you arrested, I believe, in April last year, and they're coming out, saying we've not been given due process, there is no warrant that we were given to put us -- and there is no reason except, they say, Mahathir Mohammad doesn't want us around, and he's using the Internal Security Act to silence us.

MOHAMMAD: These are minor leagues in the opposition, in any case. And of course they.

Another excerpt (did Mahathir lie in the first two questions?)

VERJEE: Why would you arrest, put political opponents, in jail.

MOHAMMAD: I don't.

VERJEE: Why would you detain them without trial.

MOHAMMAD: I don't.

VERJEE: . without due process.

MOHAMMAD: Which political opponent?

VERJEE: There are six opposition members that you arrested, I believe, in April last year, and they're coming out, saying we've not been given due process, there is no warrant that we were given to put us -- and there is no reason except, they say, Mahathir Mohammad doesn't want us around, and he's using the Internal Security Act to silence us.

MOHAMMAD: These are minor leagues in the opposition, in any case. And of course they.

[masterof_none]

I agree. I guess I post at the wrong place.

Anyway, it's good that people have responded. At least, we can think of how to improve our demcracy.

BTW, America has been preaching democracy for 200 years, whereas we just knew democracy for about 40 years.
Plus, we have so many interests in the country that sometimes, some authoritarian measure make sense.
(just look at Korea, the most cherished democracy in Asia. How it's got messed up. )


I'm not saying that we should convert to fascism.
It's just something to think about, and think of how to improve our democracy as time goes by.

Alright, --------------------------
back to Rumsfled's lies.

[masterof_none]

I agree. I guess I post at the wrong place.

Anyway, it's good that people have responded. At least, we can think of how to improve our demcracy.

BTW, America has been preaching democracy for 200 years, whereas we just knew democracy for about 40 years.
Plus, we have so many interests in the country that sometimes, some authoritarian measure make sense.
(just look at Korea, the most cherished democracy in Asia. How it's got messed up. )


I'm not saying that we should convert to fascism.
It's just something to think about, and think of how to improve our democracy as time goes by.

Alright, --------------------------
back to Rumsfled's lies.

[USSDefiantNX74205]

And they refuse to see that there are so many newspapers in Malaysia which condemn the government.

Man...he should read Berita Harian then. See if there's any criticism of the govt in there. Frankly, I believe the media in Malaysia has been manipulated to such an extent that the news in it can no longer be held at face value. Anyway back to Rumsfeld...

[USSDefiantNX74205]

And they refuse to see that there are so many newspapers in Malaysia which condemn the government.

Man...he should read Berita Harian then. See if there's any criticism of the govt in there. Frankly, I believe the media in Malaysia has been manipulated to such an extent that the news in it can no longer be held at face value. Anyway back to Rumsfeld...

[Thirdshifter]

[quote="masterof_none"]
BTW, America has been preaching democracy for 200 years, whereas we just knew democracy for about 40 years.quote]

Ironically, the same Argument was used by Mahathir when he was interviewed by my favourite Charlie rose.

[Thirdshifter]

[quote="masterof_none"]
BTW, America has been preaching democracy for 200 years, whereas we just knew democracy for about 40 years.quote]

Ironically, the same Argument was used by Mahathir when he was interviewed by my favourite Charlie rose.

[serenete]

Plus, we have so many interests in the country that sometimes, some authoritarian measure make sense.
(just look at Korea, the most cherished democracy in Asia. How it's got messed up. )


However, it's interesting to note that the democratic situation in South Korea has spawned (not to say it was the original one) the advent of the 'citizen journalist' - the combination of political activity and the extremely-wired nature of the country.

Websites like http://www.ohmynews.com have only 41 staff, but they only contribute 20% of the content - the rest is by volunteers , normal citizens who write for 'small amounts'. How interesting is that! :)

This is what the New York Times had to say about the site (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/06/international/asia/06SEOU.html?ex=1079326800&en=8cc0e364dbdf1241&ei=5070).

Thanks also to masterof_none for that cool link on S.Korea in the Economist :)

Ok. Back to Rumsfeld :P


:idea: serenete

[serenete]

Plus, we have so many interests in the country that sometimes, some authoritarian measure make sense.
(just look at Korea, the most cherished democracy in Asia. How it's got messed up. )


However, it's interesting to note that the democratic situation in South Korea has spawned (not to say it was the original one) the advent of the 'citizen journalist' - the combination of political activity and the extremely-wired nature of the country.

Websites like http://www.ohmynews.com have only 41 staff, but they only contribute 20% of the content - the rest is by volunteers , normal citizens who write for 'small amounts'. How interesting is that! :)

This is what the New York Times had to say about the site (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/06/international/asia/06SEOU.html?ex=1079326800&en=8cc0e364dbdf1241&ei=5070).

Thanks also to masterof_none for that cool link on S.Korea in the Economist :)

Ok. Back to Rumsfeld :P


:idea: serenete

[phantom]

i hate when people think democracy as a perfect system.

abour Dr. M...didn't you get his way of ignoring the question and TEASING BACK THE INTERVIEWER. (hammering the illegal workers?)

If you think he's talking crappy truth,than you may consider the malaysian mass medias as lying.

(can i aslo say something without slithering away from the main topic,that we malaysian never know how to respect the illegal immigrants...i still remember one incident when a bangladeshi was hitted by policemen till he bleed just becoz he didn't have a piece of paper saying he had the right to be in our country.*imagine what that bangladeshi mother or sisters would feel watching her son/their brothers being treated in a foreign land that way*

i pity them,i pity illegal immigrants who came to our country to work,to support their families,but will eventually being the laughing stock of fellow policemen in some creepy jails.or else ended up trading their bodies for green papers.-->the unfair world...or else being treated like a 2nd class people by we,the so-called loving malaysians)

back to democracy..

i support the freedom of speech.i guess it gives you the right to speak what you wish. but what i hate is when people used the freedom of speech to make arguments rather than discussing...

if you think,the gov is not right in doing certain stuff,you should learn to speak to them,channel your frustrations to the right people.(now some people will argue that they dont have the right to channel their frustrations...think about voting,anyone?)

if you think Mr. Anwar as innocent and felt the gov treat him vilely by turning him to be a convicted felon,than you have the right to speak your mind.

but dont you used the freedom of speech to ARGUE that anwar is innocent and ergo the gov is brutal.
when you argue,you wish to win and win and what others said,didn't matter.

Mr. anwar case sux.dont want to argue further.but i believe he's a felon.if u think i'm wrong,it's your mind.

let then,whoever who dragged him into the penitentiary face the huge ultimatum before God.

i'm digressing..i know..i know..

about democracy+freedom of speech...

if you stop arguing and start discussing,you'll learn then that you have to provide a win-win situation in order for democracy to work.

you cannot argue certain points in Malaysia for an example becoz we dont want to end up as what happened to Fiji.then,nobody wins,democracy falls to the ground,grazing grounds to be six feets under.

i believe we in malaysia have the freedom of speech,the crux here is that the majority of malaysians who have the opportunities to speak their minds support the gov.

it's not that they are run by the gov.they are the majorities.the 2/3rd voters who make BN win.(remember?)..

if you are the 1/3rd of malaysians who think gov is not doing their jobs and was frustrated hearing people prasing the gov with vivid encomiums,then you'll start to feel that the gov runs the mass media and you dont have the freedom of speech.

i guess you are wrong.in democarcy,the majorities win,remember?

[phantom]

i hate when people think democracy as a perfect system.

abour Dr. M...didn't you get his way of ignoring the question and TEASING BACK THE INTERVIEWER. (hammering the illegal workers?)

If you think he's talking crappy truth,than you may consider the malaysian mass medias as lying.

(can i aslo say something without slithering away from the main topic,that we malaysian never know how to respect the illegal immigrants...i still remember one incident when a bangladeshi was hitted by policemen till he bleed just becoz he didn't have a piece of paper saying he had the right to be in our country.*imagine what that bangladeshi mother or sisters would feel watching her son/their brothers being treated in a foreign land that way*

i pity them,i pity illegal immigrants who came to our country to work,to support their families,but will eventually being the laughing stock of fellow policemen in some creepy jails.or else ended up trading their bodies for green papers.-->the unfair world...or else being treated like a 2nd class people by we,the so-called loving malaysians)

back to democracy..

i support the freedom of speech.i guess it gives you the right to speak what you wish. but what i hate is when people used the freedom of speech to make arguments rather than discussing...

if you think,the gov is not right in doing certain stuff,you should learn to speak to them,channel your frustrations to the right people.(now some people will argue that they dont have the right to channel their frustrations...think about voting,anyone?)

if you think Mr. Anwar as innocent and felt the gov treat him vilely by turning him to be a convicted felon,than you have the right to speak your mind.

but dont you used the freedom of speech to ARGUE that anwar is innocent and ergo the gov is brutal.
when you argue,you wish to win and win and what others said,didn't matter.

Mr. anwar case sux.dont want to argue further.but i believe he's a felon.if u think i'm wrong,it's your mind.

let then,whoever who dragged him into the penitentiary face the huge ultimatum before God.

i'm digressing..i know..i know..

about democracy+freedom of speech...

if you stop arguing and start discussing,you'll learn then that you have to provide a win-win situation in order for democracy to work.

you cannot argue certain points in Malaysia for an example becoz we dont want to end up as what happened to Fiji.then,nobody wins,democracy falls to the ground,grazing grounds to be six feets under.

i believe we in malaysia have the freedom of speech,the crux here is that the majority of malaysians who have the opportunities to speak their minds support the gov.

it's not that they are run by the gov.they are the majorities.the 2/3rd voters who make BN win.(remember?)..

if you are the 1/3rd of malaysians who think gov is not doing their jobs and was frustrated hearing people prasing the gov with vivid encomiums,then you'll start to feel that the gov runs the mass media and you dont have the freedom of speech.

i guess you are wrong.in democarcy,the majorities win,remember?

[__earth]

Sorry to topdog. The momentum of the thread is too great. furthermore, ITS FVCK3N THURSDAY AND FRIDAY IS AROUND THE FVCK3N CORNER!
w00t! 1+ g0nn4 b 4 l33t w33kn b4 h3llw33k

Firstly,
i hate when people think democracy as a perfect system.
could you point out where this was said in this thread?

If you think he's talking crappy truth,than you may consider the malaysian mass medias as lying.
heh! msian mass media is worse than Fox News. Fox is biased but back home, the media is biased and is being controlled by the power that be. i dont think anybody could dispute that. :D

i support the freedom of speech.i guess it gives you the right to speak what you wish. but what i hate is when people used the freedom of speech to make arguments rather than discussing...
so, what you are trying to say is that you are for free speech but at that same time against it?
What?s the difference between making an argument and discussing anyway? Don?t you have to make an argument in order to discuss it? Somebody has to go for or against a point in a discussion.

if you think,the gov is not right in doing certain stuff,you should learn to speak to them,channel your frustrations to the right people.(now some people will argue that they dont have the right to channel their frustrations...think about voting,anyone?)
problem is, they are not listening. So, when they are not listening, change em.

if you are the 1/3rd of malaysians who think gov is not doing their jobs and was frustrated hearing people prasing the gov with vivid encomiums,then you'll start to feel that the gov runs the mass media and you dont have the freedom of speech.
you must realize that modern democracy is not just about majority. If democracy is just about majority, hey, we could recognize Iran as a democracy.

It?s composed of human rights too and free speech is part of human rights. Currently, free speech is almost a non-existence in Malaysia.

And if you think the current government is not running the mass media, try naming the owner of the following media

The Star ? hint, starts with M, ends with A
Berita Harian ? don't think you need a hint on this
Utusan ? no brainer if you read em

Btw, look at this. http://www.jeffooi.com/archives/001761.php. BN needs to learn that there is a separation between the party and the state in real democracy.

[__earth]

Sorry to topdog. The momentum of the thread is too great. furthermore, ITS FVCK3N THURSDAY AND FRIDAY IS AROUND THE FVCK3N CORNER!
w00t! 1+ g0nn4 b 4 l33t w33kn b4 h3llw33k

Firstly,
i hate when people think democracy as a perfect system.
could you point out where this was said in this thread?

If you think he's talking crappy truth,than you may consider the malaysian mass medias as lying.
heh! msian mass media is worse than Fox News. Fox is biased but back home, the media is biased and is being controlled by the power that be. i dont think anybody could dispute that. :D

i support the freedom of speech.i guess it gives you the right to speak what you wish. but what i hate is when people used the freedom of speech to make arguments rather than discussing...
so, what you are trying to say is that you are for free speech but at that same time against it?
What?s the difference between making an argument and discussing anyway? Don?t you have to make an argument in order to discuss it? Somebody has to go for or against a point in a discussion.

if you think,the gov is not right in doing certain stuff,you should learn to speak to them,channel your frustrations to the right people.(now some people will argue that they dont have the right to channel their frustrations...think about voting,anyone?)
problem is, they are not listening. So, when they are not listening, change em.

if you are the 1/3rd of malaysians who think gov is not doing their jobs and was frustrated hearing people prasing the gov with vivid encomiums,then you'll start to feel that the gov runs the mass media and you dont have the freedom of speech.
you must realize that modern democracy is not just about majority. If democracy is just about majority, hey, we could recognize Iran as a democracy.

It?s composed of human rights too and free speech is part of human rights. Currently, free speech is almost a non-existence in Malaysia.

And if you think the current government is not running the mass media, try naming the owner of the following media

The Star ? hint, starts with M, ends with A
Berita Harian ? don't think you need a hint on this
Utusan ? no brainer if you read em

Btw, look at this. http://www.jeffooi.com/archives/001761.php. BN needs to learn that there is a separation between the party and the state in real democracy.

[topdog]

...furthermore, ITS FVCK3N THURSDAY AND FRIDAY IS AROUND THE FVCK3N CORNER!
w00t! 1+ g0nn4 b 4 l33t w33kn b4 h3llw33k...

bah geeky leet-speak. :) yeah it's fcukin' thursday (no wait, it's friday already) and i'm stuck at my desk playing with damn signals. grrr.

[topdog]

...furthermore, ITS FVCK3N THURSDAY AND FRIDAY IS AROUND THE FVCK3N CORNER!
w00t! 1+ g0nn4 b 4 l33t w33kn b4 h3llw33k...

bah geeky leet-speak. :) yeah it's fcukin' thursday (no wait, it's friday already) and i'm stuck at my desk playing with damn signals. grrr.

[phantom]

could you point out where this was said in this thread?


i was referring to any country that think this system as flawless and wish that the rest of da world will follow the same system as theirs.

heh! msian mass media is worse than Fox News. Fox is biased but back home, the media is biased and is being controlled by the power that be. i dont think anybody could dispute that.



i am not disputing,i just dont agree with your statement.why?the malaysian mass medias are still kickin,coz the majority of malaysian still believe in them..though you may think that we are blindly being bombarded by supreficial facts knitted perfectly to be our eyefolds,we still care to watch it every night or else read them almost daily..

if you believe our mass medias as biased,be that.

so, what you are trying to say is that you are for free speech but at that same time against it?
What?s the difference between making an argument and discussing anyway? Don?t you have to make an argument in order to discuss it? Somebody has to go for or against a point in a discussion.


when did i say,i am against the freedom of speech?
phewwwwwwww,you have little idea what are the differences between an argument and discussions...


in argument,you dont care what people thinks,you care too much to state your own case and win it,regardless of how wrong/right your points could be..here,there's a win-lost situation

when you discuss,you learn to change you mind or else,accept certain things state by others..(even when you stick to your own understanding later)..this is perhaps a win-win situation

you dont make argument when you discuss,instead you create a rubric.
you make argument,when you argue.

these are two diverse words.

againt,i support the freedom of speech..if not i wouldn't be here in the 1st place..

problem is, they are not listening. So, when they are not listening, change em

vote then..dont go to the street and throw your tantrum and hope the gov is overthrown and a new leader that will dance to the tune inside your brain will be reigning..

i believe in the current gov...they have been providing a very conducive environment for me and my posterity to blossom..

alas,not e'body will have the same taste as I do,be free to make your own choice and perhaps let the options open...

you must realize that modern democracy is not just about majority. If democracy is just about majority, hey, we could recognize Iran as a democracy.

It?s composed of human rights too and free speech is part of human rights. Currently, free speech is almost a non-existence in Malaysia.


i'm sorry,i never take any class teaching me about the iranian political system...

yeas,i believe that modern democarcy is not just about the majorities..or else the majority of the people choosing who will rule them..

so here we go,the defination of democarcy stated by a yale emeritus prof :
In general terms, a democracy is a form of government in which the people have the right to control their own destiny. In a democracy the people have the final authority, they have the right to make or at least influence decisions that affect their everyday lives. The term itself comes from the Greek words demos, meaning "people," and kratos, meaning "authority."

malaysia like many other countries is a repesentative democracy country which practises this system with an electoral system..

so then,it will be hard or next to impossible for you to have a gov that will make you happy when you are not agreeing with the majority of malaysian..

for me,voting allow malaysian to speak their minds..if the current gov wins again,the majorities seek to reaffirm that our current gov is doing their jobs well..

if you think,they dont,you are entitle to own opinion which i fully respect...

free speech is exist in our country,if not how then you know that some people are against the gov?
becoz they do speak their minds..and minorities agreed with them..

if free speech doesn't exist,then we need to start underground schema to state our opinions,dont we?

when someone could drive in our country with an opposition party's flag billowing on his car's roof,it shows that the free speech is still breathing...

in this sense,i believe it is indeed too harsh to state that the freedom of speech is dead in our country..



And if you think the current government is not running the mass media, try naming the owner of the following media

The Star ? hint, starts with M, ends with A
Berita Harian ? don't think you need a hint on this
Utusan ? no brainer if you read em


owh izzit?if you are correct,the gov is perhaps running our mass media..but then how come the journalist too are invovled?are they doing that for the sake of money?

then,how come millions of these gazette being sold out?who are buying them then?why?

becoz people trust them..becoz people love reading them..becoz people AGREE with them...

why on earth will you waste your money buying something which you hate reading or else considered them to be the puppet strings?

i read utusan e'day....i still do think that i have a brain..

i dont read harakah or malaysiakini,coz i think they are lying..just like you may feel towards utusan..

we may be having two contrary points of view..

but trust me,we still have the freedom of speech in our country and we still practise democracy..

care for reconsideration?

[phantom]

could you point out where this was said in this thread?


i was referring to any country that think this system as flawless and wish that the rest of da world will follow the same system as theirs.

heh! msian mass media is worse than Fox News. Fox is biased but back home, the media is biased and is being controlled by the power that be. i dont think anybody could dispute that.



i am not disputing,i just dont agree with your statement.why?the malaysian mass medias are still kickin,coz the majority of malaysian still believe in them..though you may think that we are blindly being bombarded by supreficial facts knitted perfectly to be our eyefolds,we still care to watch it every night or else read them almost daily..

if you believe our mass medias as biased,be that.

so, what you are trying to say is that you are for free speech but at that same time against it?
What?s the difference between making an argument and discussing anyway? Don?t you have to make an argument in order to discuss it? Somebody has to go for or against a point in a discussion.


when did i say,i am against the freedom of speech?
phewwwwwwww,you have little idea what are the differences between an argument and discussions...


in argument,you dont care what people thinks,you care too much to state your own case and win it,regardless of how wrong/right your points could be..here,there's a win-lost situation

when you discuss,you learn to change you mind or else,accept certain things state by others..(even when you stick to your own understanding later)..this is perhaps a win-win situation

you dont make argument when you discuss,instead you create a rubric.
you make argument,when you argue.

these are two diverse words.

againt,i support the freedom of speech..if not i wouldn't be here in the 1st place..

problem is, they are not listening. So, when they are not listening, change em

vote then..dont go to the street and throw your tantrum and hope the gov is overthrown and a new leader that will dance to the tune inside your brain will be reigning..

i believe in the current gov...they have been providing a very conducive environment for me and my posterity to blossom..

alas,not e'body will have the same taste as I do,be free to make your own choice and perhaps let the options open...

you must realize that modern democracy is not just about majority. If democracy is just about majority, hey, we could recognize Iran as a democracy.

It?s composed of human rights too and free speech is part of human rights. Currently, free speech is almost a non-existence in Malaysia.


i'm sorry,i never take any class teaching me about the iranian political system...

yeas,i believe that modern democarcy is not just about the majorities..or else the majority of the people choosing who will rule them..

so here we go,the defination of democarcy stated by a yale emeritus prof :
In general terms, a democracy is a form of government in which the people have the right to control their own destiny. In a democracy the people have the final authority, they have the right to make or at least influence decisions that affect their everyday lives. The term itself comes from the Greek words demos, meaning "people," and kratos, meaning "authority."

malaysia like many other countries is a repesentative democracy country which practises this system with an electoral system..

so then,it will be hard or next to impossible for you to have a gov that will make you happy when you are not agreeing with the majority of malaysian..

for me,voting allow malaysian to speak their minds..if the current gov wins again,the majorities seek to reaffirm that our current gov is doing their jobs well..

if you think,they dont,you are entitle to own opinion which i fully respect...

free speech is exist in our country,if not how then you know that some people are against the gov?
becoz they do speak their minds..and minorities agreed with them..

if free speech doesn't exist,then we need to start underground schema to state our opinions,dont we?

when someone could drive in our country with an opposition party's flag billowing on his car's roof,it shows that the free speech is still breathing...

in this sense,i believe it is indeed too harsh to state that the freedom of speech is dead in our country..



And if you think the current government is not running the mass media, try naming the owner of the following media

The Star ? hint, starts with M, ends with A
Berita Harian ? don't think you need a hint on this
Utusan ? no brainer if you read em


owh izzit?if you are correct,the gov is perhaps running our mass media..but then how come the journalist too are invovled?are they doing that for the sake of money?

then,how come millions of these gazette being sold out?who are buying them then?why?

becoz people trust them..becoz people love reading them..becoz people AGREE with them...

why on earth will you waste your money buying something which you hate reading or else considered them to be the puppet strings?

i read utusan e'day....i still do think that i have a brain..

i dont read harakah or malaysiakini,coz i think they are lying..just like you may feel towards utusan..

we may be having two contrary points of view..

but trust me,we still have the freedom of speech in our country and we still practise democracy..

care for reconsideration?

[USSDefiantNX74205]

but trust me,we still have the freedom of speech in our country and we still practise democracy..

Try this experiment: go out to a public place (tip: make sure its near a police station) and yell 'Badawi is incompetent, ineffetive, corrupt and I hate his guts!!!' through a loudhailer.

The result: You'd be arrested almost immediately and get shipped off to Kamunting under the ISA on grounds of disrupting national harmony (well, your arrest on grounds of disrupting public peace would have been more acceptable, but then that wouldn't warrant the involvement of the ISA, would it?). Sounds too absurd for your liking? It's the truth...and is it 'freedom of speech'? I'll leave that for all of you to judge.

My point is, in a democracy, a person has every right to speak out against the elected government. Under the BN, we're at risk of being a communist state, with controlled speech and media. The only free speech you're allowed in public are praises for the BN. Still don't believe me? Try the aforementioned experiment.

[USSDefiantNX74205]

but trust me,we still have the freedom of speech in our country and we still practise democracy..

Try this experiment: go out to a public place (tip: make sure its near a police station) and yell 'Badawi is incompetent, ineffetive, corrupt and I hate his guts!!!' through a loudhailer.

The result: You'd be arrested almost immediately and get shipped off to Kamunting under the ISA on grounds of disrupting national harmony (well, your arrest on grounds of disrupting public peace would have been more acceptable, but then that wouldn't warrant the involvement of the ISA, would it?). Sounds too absurd for your liking? It's the truth...and is it 'freedom of speech'? I'll leave that for all of you to judge.

My point is, in a democracy, a person has every right to speak out against the elected government. Under the BN, we're at risk of being a communist state, with controlled speech and media. The only free speech you're allowed in public are praises for the BN. Still don't believe me? Try the aforementioned experiment.

[Thirdshifter]

And if you think the current government is not running the mass media, try naming the owner of the following media

The Star ? hint, starts with M, ends with A
Berita Harian ? don't think you need a hint on this
Utusan ? no brainer if you read em


owh izzit?if you are correct,the gov is perhaps running our mass media..but then how come the journalist too are invovled?are they doing that for the sake of money?

then,how come millions of these gazette being sold out?who are buying them then?why?

becoz people trust them..becoz people love reading them..becoz people AGREE with them...

why on earth will you waste your money buying something which you hate reading or else considered them to be the puppet strings?

i read utusan e'day....i still do think that i have a brain..

i dont read harakah or malaysiakini,coz i think they are lying..just like you may feel towards utusan..

we may be having two contrary points of view..

but trust me,we still have the freedom of speech in our country and we still practise democracy..

care for reconsideration?

If it was as simple as buying a Gum in a convenience store to get a Licence to run a Television station or to start a Daily Newspaper in Malaysia then it would be a different story.

What Earth was trying to emphasize is, The Current Mass Media is Pro-Goverment. You seldomly hear what the opposition really said, instead you get bit and pieces of it being quoted out of context by the media. It's called Biased.

There's no Anti-BN Daily in Malaysia. If you haven't notice RTM 1 and 2 which is a State runned Station which use Public funds is also Pr-BN. You don't see perhimpunan Agung Parti Islam Semalaysia Live on TV do you?

Unfortunantly many had tried to run independant newspaper and ofcourse they all had been shut down by the goverment. This is a fact and there's no denying it. Harakah is an example.

Our current mainstream media are obviously Anti-Opposition and unfortunatly Phantom All of the free television in Malaysia is under the wing of our current goverment.

It is the manipulation of the mass media by BN that is being questioned. Not the freedom of speech.

Ofcourse In my humble opinion, Freedom of speech in Malaysia is there but only for the pro-BN.

If i was to go to a Perhimpunan Agung UMNO and lepak depan PWTC with a sepanduk saying Badawi bangsat negara.. i'm sure i'll be in ISA.

Think about it, I didn;t even hurt anybody physically. Maybe those poor UMNO guys will have an ache on their left nut, but thats pretty much it.

[Thirdshifter]

And if you think the current government is not running the mass media, try naming the owner of the following media

The Star ? hint, starts with M, ends with A
Berita Harian ? don't think you need a hint on this
Utusan ? no brainer if you read em


owh izzit?if you are correct,the gov is perhaps running our mass media..but then how come the journalist too are invovled?are they doing that for the sake of money?

then,how come millions of these gazette being sold out?who are buying them then?why?

becoz people trust them..becoz people love reading them..becoz people AGREE with them...

why on earth will you waste your money buying something which you hate reading or else considered them to be the puppet strings?

i read utusan e'day....i still do think that i have a brain..

i dont read harakah or malaysiakini,coz i think they are lying..just like you may feel towards utusan..

we may be having two contrary points of view..

but trust me,we still have the freedom of speech in our country and we still practise democracy..

care for reconsideration?

If it was as simple as buying a Gum in a convenience store to get a Licence to run a Television station or to start a Daily Newspaper in Malaysia then it would be a different story.

What Earth was trying to emphasize is, The Current Mass Media is Pro-Goverment. You seldomly hear what the opposition really said, instead you get bit and pieces of it being quoted out of context by the media. It's called Biased.

There's no Anti-BN Daily in Malaysia. If you haven't notice RTM 1 and 2 which is a State runned Station which use Public funds is also Pr-BN. You don't see perhimpunan Agung Parti Islam Semalaysia Live on TV do you?

Unfortunantly many had tried to run independant newspaper and ofcourse they all had been shut down by the goverment. This is a fact and there's no denying it. Harakah is an example.

Our current mainstream media are obviously Anti-Opposition and unfortunatly Phantom All of the free television in Malaysia is under the wing of our current goverment.

It is the manipulation of the mass media by BN that is being questioned. Not the freedom of speech.

Ofcourse In my humble opinion, Freedom of speech in Malaysia is there but only for the pro-BN.

If i was to go to a Perhimpunan Agung UMNO and lepak depan PWTC with a sepanduk saying Badawi bangsat negara.. i'm sure i'll be in ISA.

Think about it, I didn;t even hurt anybody physically. Maybe those poor UMNO guys will have an ache on their left nut, but thats pretty much it.

[icycold]

Well... I do read The Star, I do read Utusan, I do read Berita Harian, and I do read Malaysiakini and Harakah.. it's up to us to analyze which news are true and which one have been manipulated... Come on guys!! I believe most of us are University students, so we ought to think universally and critically and not just accept everything in the media for granted.

For me, if i really would like to know in depth about an issue or something, i'll go and find it myself, and it's not hard, considering i live in the Klang Valley. I've been to the court to listen to trial proceedings involving political figures itself, and a lot of very important points are not reported in the media.. I've been to mass rally to see what is happening there, and i can see how manipulative the media have been the next day reporting the event. If the media report the truth, they'll pay a very heavy price. A very good example of this is what happened on the 14 April 2001 in front of SUHAKAM building, I was there at that time. If someone can find the archive of the major dailies in Malaysia on 15th April 2001.. you'll know what I mean. Compare how the reports of Utusan, Berita Harian, The Star with the three major chinese dailies... the former three gave a very little and manipulative story of what happened the day before, while the latter three printed out a huge photo (on the FRONT page!!) of what happened. And i guess all of you still remember what happened to Nanyang Siang Pau and China Press two months after that..

On the question whether the media in malaysia is biased, i really do think they are bias, especially now during the campaigning period. We can see clearly every day, even before the parliament is dissolved, and worse after that, the media... be it newspapers, radio stations, and tv stations... they are campaigning for BN without giving the other parties the chance to voice out their opinions, manifesto, etc.. How can we expect a fair election in Malaysia when BN has and is controlling the three M's - Media, Machinery, Money. For DUN Kajang alone, BN throws RM2 million just to capture it back and their opponent don't even have enough money to campaign. SPR is another bias body... day by day they claim they are independent, but look what happen today??? I'll take an example of what happened in a village of DUN Dengkil recently. PAS have been complaining to SPR that their banners and flags have been taken down by BN workers, making the area virtually 'green free area' and '100% dark blue'. Nothing have been taken... And what happened yesterday in my neighbourhood, where BN lodged a complaint that their opposition banner contains 'seditious' remark, and wow!!! how efficient SPR is in removing the banner.!!

What i write above is based on my experience, of what i see and involve in.... and not what i read or hear........


My message : If you want to know what is happening in Malaysia, go and find it yourself, it's not hard.. You won't get the true stories sitting on your sofa reading newspapers and watching tv.

The X-Files slogan is true: 'The truth is out there..' It's you who have to find it, don't expect it to come to you.

[icycold]

Well... I do read The Star, I do read Utusan, I do read Berita Harian, and I do read Malaysiakini and Harakah.. it's up to us to analyze which news are true and which one have been manipulated... Come on guys!! I believe most of us are University students, so we ought to think universally and critically and not just accept everything in the media for granted.

For me, if i really would like to know in depth about an issue or something, i'll go and find it myself, and it's not hard, considering i live in the Klang Valley. I've been to the court to listen to trial proceedings involving political figures itself, and a lot of very important points are not reported in the media.. I've been to mass rally to see what is happening there, and i can see how manipulative the media have been the next day reporting the event. If the media report the truth, they'll pay a very heavy price. A very good example of this is what happened on the 14 April 2001 in front of SUHAKAM building, I was there at that time. If someone can find the archive of the major dailies in Malaysia on 15th April 2001.. you'll know what I mean. Compare how the reports of Utusan, Berita Harian, The Star with the three major chinese dailies... the former three gave a very little and manipulative story of what happened the day before, while the latter three printed out a huge photo (on the FRONT page!!) of what happened. And i guess all of you still remember what happened to Nanyang Siang Pau and China Press two months after that..

On the question whether the media in malaysia is biased, i really do think they are bias, especially now during the campaigning period. We can see clearly every day, even before the parliament is dissolved, and worse after that, the media... be it newspapers, radio stations, and tv stations... they are campaigning for BN without giving the other parties the chance to voice out their opinions, manifesto, etc.. How can we expect a fair election in Malaysia when BN has and is controlling the three M's - Media, Machinery, Money. For DUN Kajang alone, BN throws RM2 million just to capture it back and their opponent don't even have enough money to campaign. SPR is another bias body... day by day they claim they are independent, but look what happen today??? I'll take an example of what happened in a village of DUN Dengkil recently. PAS have been complaining to SPR that their banners and flags have been taken down by BN workers, making the area virtually 'green free area' and '100% dark blue'. Nothing have been taken... And what happened yesterday in my neighbourhood, where BN lodged a complaint that their opposition banner contains 'seditious' remark, and wow!!! how efficient SPR is in removing the banner.!!

What i write above is based on my experience, of what i see and involve in.... and not what i read or hear........


My message : If you want to know what is happening in Malaysia, go and find it yourself, it's not hard.. You won't get the true stories sitting on your sofa reading newspapers and watching tv.

The X-Files slogan is true: 'The truth is out there..' It's you who have to find it, don't expect it to come to you.