UNSW or Melb

[bankerry]

Hi,

I'm a A level student in Inti.
I'm thinking of studying med either in UNSW or Melb.
However, I'm not sure which one is good.
Can ppl in the unis give some advice?
I would like to know more about the assessment..
I'm the studious type, tat's y i m doing a level.
Which uni suits me better?

[Crezki]

Hi dude. I'm for Feb 2008 intake (so I'm still finding out info myself).

I guess people would say Melbourne: exams/quizzes every 3 weeks or so.

What do you (other) guys think?

[pangping1510]

studious ar. dont do med. and dont go to unsw. unsw is more towards communcation and self directed learning. and you wouldnt like the fact that there is only 1 exam in 2 months.

[Patrick]

UNSW just closed its campus in Singapore due to low enrolment rates. What does that tell you?

[pangping1510]

i suppose you are directing the q to me.

1. sg gov is making it hard for unsw to get established in sg-certainly they like nus/ntu or whatever more
2. med is not offered in sg campus

lalala

and one thing. popularity doesnt mean quality. try to ask local australians here. most top scorers wont tell you that melb is THE place to do med. and i am just trying to answer the starter's q.

[Patrick]

Those reasons MAY be true.

If you're looking for some place to eat, imagine that you see 2 restaurants - one with many customers and another with none. Which one would you choose (Assuming that prices are the same)?

My point is, Melbourne is better.

[pangping1510]

yam kung.

we have so many meals in whole life. one meal doesnt make a BIG BIG difference.

but we might just go to one uni, so dont make so much assumption!

i no eye c la...i din say unsw is best anyway.keep ur mind open.

[jane_gun]

Those reasons MAY be true.

If you're looking for some place to eat, imagine that you see 2 restaurants - one with many customers and another with none. Which one would you choose (Assuming that prices are the same)?

My point is, Melbourne is better.

Are you even in Melbourne to begin with? For someone who's idling at home, I doubt there's much merit to what you have to say... And your restaurant analogy isn't that functional either - and to be honest, people may just end up in the restaurant with less people... Why? Here's the answer:

1. Less people = faster service = greater satisfaction
2. Less people = no rushed up cooking = better food = greater satisfaction
3. Less people = no rushed up cleaning = more conducive environment = greater satisfaction

These are just some ideas - let's see if you're up to it to figure out how to apply the above answers to the med school analogy... =P

[jane_gun]

Hi,

I'm a A level student in Inti.
I'm thinking of studying med either in UNSW or Melb.
However, I'm not sure which one is good.
Can ppl in the unis give some advice?
I would like to know more about the assessment..
I'm the studious type, tat's y i m doing a level.
Which uni suits me better?

Hmm, if you like studying, you should have gone for STPM rather than A-Levels - I'm sure you'll find that more enjoyable and challenging. Anyway, let's not digress - what is your purpose of pursuing med? Is it just for the sake of maximising the utility of those neurons in your brain or is there more to it that you want, to perhaps save lives? Firstly, I suggest you examine your motivation - if it's just for the sake of studying, you may regret taking up med no matter which uni you enter. But if you've the right aims in mind, I suggest you enrol in a uni where you enjoy the process of learning and not just because of how you'll be assessed. At the end of the day, what makes a good doctor is not just how much knowledge you have but how you apply it in practice...

[jane_gun]

studious ar. dont do med. and dont go to unsw. unsw is more towards communcation and self directed learning. and you wouldnt like the fact that there is only 1 exam in 2 months.

pangping1510, you forget that UNSW med students also have to do individual assignments and group projects a lot more than the melb people - I'm sure someone "studious" can also perhaps take joy at this knowledge since studying isn't just necessarily for passing quizzes or exams but also encompasses the research process?

[pangping1510]

haha.ya.assignments and projects.

if people can realize what you have said, they wont be as confused as they are now. XD

[jane_gun]

UNSW just closed its campus in Singapore due to low enrolment rates. What does that tell you?

I pity your ignorance in not knowing that UNSW Asia doesn't offer med - the subject is absolutely irrelevant. It's like saying that a famous franchise of a true blue Italian restaurant had to close down simply because people's going for the cheaper mamak (oh look, I'm using a restaurant analogy too!) - that doesn't mean the Italian restaurant is no good but I shall not venture further into this discussion as I'm beginning to wonder why I waste my time replying to this pointless post... I suggest you stick to the topic and not mislead others...

[jane_gun]

Those reasons MAY be true.

If you're looking for some place to eat, imagine that you see 2 restaurants - one with many customers and another with none. Which one would you choose (Assuming that prices are the same)?

My point is, Melbourne is better.

Melbourne is better? Hmm, I would have appreciated that post better if it has been substantiated with appropriate reasons rather than just being left as a one-liner... For your info, I was offered places at both UNSW and Melb but after much research, I chose UNSW (eventhough originally I intended to go to Melb thanks to all those misleading popularity stuff). Luckily I did my research - have you done yours? Also, I'm not the sole Malaysian to be doing this - there are other friends who have turned down places in Melb for UNSW. If you're in Melb, count yourself lucky that we did that so you can be offered "our" place in Melb. Plus, most Aussies (including the interstates i.e. non-NSW/Vic people) would choose UNSW too - many rejected Melb and hardly anyone think of it as highly as us Malaysians - we've simply been deluded all these while; shouldn't it be time that we wake up from this stupor and start facing reality?

[Patrick]

Haiyo....yam kung....why do you guys take my analogy so seriously?

The point that I want to make with my analogy is this :
If more people go for something, it is highly probable that that thing is good. Say, Star Wars. Many people watch it because they find it highly enjoyable. Although it might not apply to ALL, it is an indicator as to what kind of movies movie-goers prefer - science fiction (Again, this is an analogy).

Ooh, you like my analogies? Here's more. More and more people are learning mandarin, not other languages. What does this say to you? People are realising that Mandarin would be an advantage in the later years - they see Mandarin as better than other languages for the moment. After Mandarin, they'll pursue other languages instead, but their highest priority is Mandarin. (Please don't argue that I'm downplaying the importance of English. English, is of course, of paramount importance)

And when more people prefer something, it is also highly probable that employers PREFER that thing too. In this case, if many people deem Melbourne as a good place for education, employers will most likely feel the same (Although this is a mere generalisation and does not take into account the quality of the graduate itself).

Listing down ALL the reasons will take a book, so I've simplified my argument to what matters. Please look at the argument, not the irrelevant little little things.

In the case of medicine, I'd say that you'll be employed regardless of where you've studied at (UNSW or Melbourne). What matters now is which university suits you in terms of lifestyle, teaching & learning, facilities, etc.

But anyways, I've got some stuff to back up my stance.
1. Melbourne is ranked quite highly in the THES rankings, as compared to UNSW. Although inconclusive, this certainly gives you a rough idea of Melbourne.
2. I heard that Melbourne is gearing up to be a research-based university in medicine. You should find this out.
3. My friend, a 2nd year medic in Melbourne, said that the course is excellent. He is impressed with the way Melbourne integrates book-based learning with practicals in hospitals. This is HIS VIEW.
4. Melbourne offers you a vibrant city life, and is probably the most happening city in Australia. (But if you don't like city life, then this becomes a bad point)

[Zeroth]

Those reasons MAY be true.

If you're looking for some place to eat, imagine that you see 2 restaurants - one with many customers and another with none. Which one would you choose (Assuming that prices are the same)?

My point is, Melbourne is better.

I think Jane has answered the question but yeah, UNSW asia does not offer medicine. If it did, it'll be jammed pack anyway..

Back to the initial question: which one is better? UNSW or Melbourne Uni?

Youngyew asked me to address this issue here, but the problem is, you can't really compare the two universities unless you sat through their courses personally. Furthermore, I thought Melbourne Uni is going post grad soon? Are they still offering undergrad medicine? Maybe Youngyew can clarify this.

As for UNSW medicine course, I had already gone through a little bit about the details of how the course is done in another thread, i believe if you look for it you can find out a little bit about it. The good thing about UNSW is that you have plenty of hospital experience, and they emphasise more on clinical aspects of medicine instead of focussing on the science. However, this is also a downfall as some people prefer to handle more sciency stuff (like knowing everything in anatomy and pathology, etc.. ). I find that (IMO) in UNSW so far (i'm in third year), the amount of science stuff that we are put through is little compared to other courses. Furthermore, the shift into our new medicine program also means we did less science stuff than the traditional courses.

The medicine course in UNSW is different compared to Melbourne Uni. Melbourne Uni uses PBL system i think whereas UNSW uses Scenario based learning. Again, the UNSW course had been discussed in another thread, you can post your questions here or PM me, i'll assist you. Otherwise, you can ask Jane Gun who is a second year medicine student in UNSW or PangPing who is a first year currently.

I'm the studious type, tat's y i m doing a level.

Erm, medicine cannot be learnt from books alone. It requires plenty of interaction and socialising, be it with fellow doctors and also your patients. Make sure you really want to do medicine, otherwise go for other course like bioscience or something that really interests you.

Hope it helps, good luck with your selection.

p.s: Melbourne city is waaay cooler and neater than Sydney, hehe!

[Patrick]

UNSW just closed its campus in Singapore due to low enrolment rates. What does that tell you?

I pity your ignorance in not knowing that UNSW Asia doesn't offer med - the subject is absolutely irrelevant. It's like saying that a famous franchise of a true blue Italian restaurant had to close down simply because people's going for the cheaper mamak (oh look, I'm using a restaurant analogy too!) - that doesn't mean the Italian restaurant is no good but I shall not venture further into this discussion as I'm beginning to wonder why I waste my time replying to this pointless post... I suggest you stick to the topic and not mislead others...

Can't I give that statement without referring to medicine? I was talking about UNSW in general. The fact is - UNSW closed its campus. This is highly theoretical, but can be true.

UNSW closes campus due to low enrolment rates ----> Perceived reason is that UNSW degrees are not sought after ----> Decreases employers' confidence in UNSW graduates ----> Medic students may be affected as they carry the UNSW brand name.

Like I said, this is highly theoretical and in my opinion, usually happens as it brings psychological effects to the employers.

I'm not saying that UNSW is bad or whatsoever because they closed their campus, but the news can indeed affect its brand name. But, in the end, what matters most is still the graduate, not the university.

[Zeroth]

Found my post:
Hi there, congratulations on receiving UNSW offer. However, if you can, I suggest you wait for Melbourne offer as the Med course is said to be more prestigeous there. Hehe!

The UNSW medicine course had just recently been revamped with the New Medicine Program. Basically this program removes the traditional approach to medicine, where you would do sciences in the first half and then clinical in the second half by integrating everything. Also, the course uses a multidisciplinary approach, so you don't study based on the many disciplines of medicine. The whole course is based on scenario based learning.

For your first two years, you will undergo Phase 1, consisting of 4 blocks. Each block will have a written examination, group project and an individual assignment. You will be put into scenario groups consisting of around 12 members, where you will tackle issues related to the scenario presented in each block.

You will face your first clinical experience right from Foundations, where you will deal with history taking and then procedural skills.

The course put much emphasis on reflections, where by the end of your Phase 1, you will be required to write a Portfolio on your progress throughout the first two years. The course is very patient centered as well, so at times it may seem that they are removing some content that were deemed 'excessive'.

In phase 2, you will undergo 'Independant Learning Project', which includes an attachment with a research team of your choice.

I think i'm explaining this badly, you can get more information from the website: www.med.unsw.edu.au

Due to the 'beta' nature of the course (it's entering it's fourth year), things are constantly being reviewed and changed. So at times you may feel that things are inadequate or messy. However, I'm satisfied with what they provide now. Hope it helps.

[jane_gun]

Haiyo....yam kung....why do you guys take my analogy so seriously?

The point that I want to make with my analogy is this :
If more people go for something, it is highly probable that that thing is good. Say, Star Wars. Many people watch it because they find it highly enjoyable. Although it might not apply to ALL, it is an indicator as to what kind of movies movie-goers prefer - science fiction (Again, this is an analogy).

Ooh, you like my analogies? Here's more. More and more people are learning mandarin, not other languages. What does this say to you? People are realising that Mandarin would be an advantage in the later years - they see Mandarin as better than other languages for the moment. After Mandarin, they'll pursue other languages instead, but their highest priority is Mandarin. (Please don't argue that I'm downplaying the importance of English. English, is of course, of paramount importance)

And when more people prefer something, it is also highly probable that employers PREFER that thing too. In this case, if many people deem Melbourne as a good place for education, employers will most likely feel the same (Although this is a mere generalisation and does not take into account the quality of the graduate itself).

Listing down ALL the reasons will take a book, so I've simplified my argument to what matters. Please look at the argument, not the little little things that

In the case of medicine, I'd say that you'll be employed regardless of where you've studied at (UNSW or Melbourne). What matters now is which university suits you in terms of lifestyle, teaching & learning, facilities, etc.

But anyways, I've got some stuff to back up my stance.
1. Melbourne is ranked quite highly in the THES rankings, as compared to UNSW. Although inconclusive, this certainly gives you a rough idea of Melbourne.
2. I heard that Melbourne is gearing up to be a research-based university in medicine. You should find this out.
3. My friend, a 2nd year medic in Melbourne, said that the course is excellent. He is impressed with the way Melbourne integrates book-based learning with practicals in hospitals. This is HIS VIEW.
4. Melbourne offers you a vibrant city life, and is probably the most happening city in Australia. (But if you don't like city life, then this becomes a bad point)

When most people prefer a uni, the employers prefer it too? Hello! Are you doing med for the sake of getting a job or for serving others?! The THES ranking is more for the overall standards and not the individual med faculty itself. Are you trying to tell me that a fine arts student should enrol in Harvard which has a higher overall ranking rather than in a more specialised but less well-known uni in Paris just for the sake of prestige? Melb's gearing up to be research-based - only gearing up? UNSW's been there and done that... And honestly, you need some UNSW Med friends to tell you that the clinical sessions in UNSW are way more frequent than those in Melb and we get more chance to practice since we're in smaller groups and have at least 8 different teaching hospitals (even from 1st year itself) rather than just everyone attending the same hospital in Melbourne... Melb's probably the most happening city in Aus? Are you serious? Just about anyone (except yourself maybe) will say it's Sydney instead! Lol, I really think you need to do more research first before posting something that blunt...

[Zeroth]

But anyways, I've got some stuff to back up my stance.
1. Melbourne is ranked quite highly in the THES rankings, as compared to UNSW. Although inconclusive, this certainly gives you a rough idea of Melbourne.
2. I heard that Melbourne is gearing up to be a research-based university in medicine. You should find this out.
3. My friend, a 2nd year medic in Melbourne, said that the course is excellent. He is impressed with the way Melbourne integrates book-based learning with practicals in hospitals. This is HIS VIEW.
4. Melbourne offers you a vibrant city life, and is probably the most happening city in Australia. (But if you don't like city life, then this becomes a bad point)

Just want to clarify some points:
1. THES rankings does not specifically rank the medicine course, it's an overrall ranking if I'm not mistaken.
2. Going into research based medicine has nothing to do with the medicine course, it certainly improves their ranking, but as a student you'll probably feel nothing special. In UNSW you will spend a year doing research in something we call the independant learning project (ILP), some people even get a chance to have their research published in journals.
3. Again, that's an opinion. Furthermore that opinion is based on the fact that Melbourne uni is good. It's not a comparison opinion as some other unis can be 'better' than the good. He did not study in both unis, so comparisons cannot be truly made. Many people doing med in UNSW were happy with their course.
4. On the contrary, Sydney city probably offers as much vibrant life as Melbourne. I like Melbourne's trams though.. hehe!

[Zeroth]

When most people prefer a uni, the employers prefer it too? Hello! Are you doing med for the sake of getting a job or for serving others?! The THES ranking is more for the overall standards and not the individual med faculty itself. Are you trying to tell me that a fine arts student should enrol in Harvard which has a higher overall ranking rather than in a more specialised but less well-known uni in Paris just for the sake of prestige? Melb's gearing up to be research-based - only gearing up? UNSW's been there and done that... And honestly, you need some UNSW Med friends to tell you that the clinical sessions in UNSW are way more frequent than those in Melb and we get more chance to practice since we're in smaller groups and have at least 8 different teaching hospitals (even from 1st year itself) rather than just everyone attending the same hospital in Melbourne... Melb's probably the most happening city in Aus? Are you serious? Just about anyone (except yourself maybe) will say it's Sydney instead! Lol, I really think you need to do more research first before posting something that blunt...

Oops! a battle in place.. chill lar.. ;)

[Zeroth]

Ooh, you like my analogies? Here's more. More and more people are learning mandarin, not other languages. What does this say to you? People are realising that Mandarin would be an advantage in the later years - they see Mandarin as better than other languages for the moment. After Mandarin, they'll pursue other languages instead, but their highest priority is Mandarin. (Please don't argue that I'm downplaying the importance of English. English, is of course, of paramount importance)


Haha, there's no proff that everyone sees mandarin as better than other languages. In fact, Chinese people are undergoing surgery in order to speak English for fluently. :P

[Patrick]

Those reasons MAY be true.

If you're looking for some place to eat, imagine that you see 2 restaurants - one with many customers and another with none. Which one would you choose (Assuming that prices are the same)?

My point is, Melbourne is better.

Melbourne is better? Hmm, I would have appreciated that post better if it has been substantiated with appropriate reasons rather than just being left as a one-liner... For your info, I was offered places at both UNSW and Melb but after much research, I chose UNSW (eventhough originally I intended to go to Melb thanks to all those misleading popularity stuff). Luckily I did my research - have you done yours? Also, I'm not the sole Malaysian to be doing this - there are other friends who have turned down places in Melb for UNSW. If you're in Melb, count yourself lucky that we did that so you can be offered "our" place in Melb. Plus, most Aussies (including the interstates i.e. non-NSW/Vic people) would choose UNSW too - many rejected Melb and hardly anyone think of it as highly as us Malaysians - we've simply been deluded all these while; shouldn't it be time that we wake up from this stupor and start facing reality?

For the record, I'm not a UNSW nor Melbourne undergraduate/alumnus. I'm just telling you guys what I think.

Fine, call me a layman about these stuff, but I'm sure that most other laymen would think the same way. There's this thing embedded in our heads that Melbourne is better, probably because we've heard more of Melbourne than UNSW?

So, when you talk about value, people would perceive the "better-branded" one as having more value. I'm sorry but this is the way of the world. Coca-cola is just plain better than Tesco cola. (Please don't say that I'm equating UNSW as Tesco cola, it's an analogy)

[jane_gun]

UNSW just closed its campus in Singapore due to low enrolment rates. What does that tell you?

I pity your ignorance in not knowing that UNSW Asia doesn't offer med - the subject is absolutely irrelevant. It's like saying that a famous franchise of a true blue Italian restaurant had to close down simply because people's going for the cheaper mamak (oh look, I'm using a restaurant analogy too!) - that doesn't mean the Italian restaurant is no good but I shall not venture further into this discussion as I'm beginning to wonder why I waste my time replying to this pointless post... I suggest you stick to the topic and not mislead others...

Can't I give that statement without referring to medicine? I was talking about UNSW in general. The fact is - UNSW closed its campus. This is highly theoretical, but can be true.

UNSW closes campus due to low enrolment rates ----> Perceived reason is that UNSW degrees are not sought after ----> Decreases employers' confidence in UNSW graduates ----> Medic students may be affected as they carry the UNSW brand name.

Like I said, this is highly theoretical and in my opinion, usually happens as it brings psychological effects to the employers.

I'm not saying that UNSW is bad or whatsoever because they closed their campus, but the news can indeed affect its brand name. But, in the end, what matters most is still the graduate, not the university.

You're certainly entitled to your opinions and I respect that but one should bear in mind that employers would have been well aware of the actual reasons as to why UNSW Asia closed down - it's not a matter of UNSW degrees not being sought after (in fact, it's quite the opposite) but rather a matter of financial concerns as a Singaporean can save so much more by entering a local uni like NUS, hence, decreasing the enrolment in UNSW Asia. On the other hand, I'm truly glad that you recognised the fact that what matters most in the end is the graduate him/herself and not the uni...

[Patrick]

But anyways, I've got some stuff to back up my stance.
1. Melbourne is ranked quite highly in the THES rankings, as compared to UNSW. Although inconclusive, this certainly gives you a rough idea of Melbourne.
2. I heard that Melbourne is gearing up to be a research-based university in medicine. You should find this out.
3. My friend, a 2nd year medic in Melbourne, said that the course is excellent. He is impressed with the way Melbourne integrates book-based learning with practicals in hospitals. This is HIS VIEW.
4. Melbourne offers you a vibrant city life, and is probably the most happening city in Australia. (But if you don't like city life, then this becomes a bad point)

Just want to clarify some points:
1. THES rankings does not specifically rank the medicine course, it's an overrall ranking if I'm not mistaken.
2. Going into research based medicine has nothing to do with the medicine course, it certainly improves their ranking, but as a student you'll probably feel nothing special. In UNSW you will spend a year doing research in something we call the independant learning project (ILP), some people even get a chance to have their research published in journals.
3. Again, that's an opinion. Furthermore that opinion is based on the fact that Melbourne uni is good. It's not a comparison opinion as some other unis can be 'better' than the good. He did not study in both unis, so comparisons cannot be truly made. Many people doing med in UNSW were happy with their course.
4. On the contrary, Sydney city probably offers as much vibrant life as Melbourne. I like Melbourne's trams though.. hehe!

Please do take note of the words that I've used.
1. Take note of "inconclusive" and "rough idea"
2. I asked the thread starter to find this out himself.
3. This is what I've heard.
4. Take note of "probably"

I think jane's being very defensive and is going to launch a nuclear missile right to my home....*runs and hides*

[jane_gun]

When most people prefer a uni, the employers prefer it too? Hello! Are you doing med for the sake of getting a job or for serving others?! The THES ranking is more for the overall standards and not the individual med faculty itself. Are you trying to tell me that a fine arts student should enrol in Harvard which has a higher overall ranking rather than in a more specialised but less well-known uni in Paris just for the sake of prestige? Melb's gearing up to be research-based - only gearing up? UNSW's been there and done that... And honestly, you need some UNSW Med friends to tell you that the clinical sessions in UNSW are way more frequent than those in Melb and we get more chance to practice since we're in smaller groups and have at least 8 different teaching hospitals (even from 1st year itself) rather than just everyone attending the same hospital in Melbourne... Melb's probably the most happening city in Aus? Are you serious? Just about anyone (except yourself maybe) will say it's Sydney instead! Lol, I really think you need to do more research first before posting something that blunt...

Oops! a battle in place.. chill lar.. ;)

Hehe, it's the "debater" streak in me emerging itself again after a long period of cold silence... =P

[jane_gun]

Those reasons MAY be true.

If you're looking for some place to eat, imagine that you see 2 restaurants - one with many customers and another with none. Which one would you choose (Assuming that prices are the same)?

My point is, Melbourne is better.

Melbourne is better? Hmm, I would have appreciated that post better if it has been substantiated with appropriate reasons rather than just being left as a one-liner... For your info, I was offered places at both UNSW and Melb but after much research, I chose UNSW (eventhough originally I intended to go to Melb thanks to all those misleading popularity stuff). Luckily I did my research - have you done yours? Also, I'm not the sole Malaysian to be doing this - there are other friends who have turned down places in Melb for UNSW. If you're in Melb, count yourself lucky that we did that so you can be offered "our" place in Melb. Plus, most Aussies (including the interstates i.e. non-NSW/Vic people) would choose UNSW too - many rejected Melb and hardly anyone think of it as highly as us Malaysians - we've simply been deluded all these while; shouldn't it be time that we wake up from this stupor and start facing reality?

For the record, I'm not a UNSW nor Melbourne undergraduate/alumnus. I'm just telling you guys what I think.

Fine, call me a layman about these stuff, but I'm sure that most other laymen would think the same way. There's this thing embedded in our heads that Melbourne is better, probably because we've heard more of Melbourne than UNSW?

So, when you talk about value, people would perceive the "better-branded" one as having more value. I'm sorry but this is the way of the world. Coca-cola is just plain better than Tesco cola. (Please don't say that I'm equating UNSW as Tesco cola, it's an analogy)

That's the whole problem about our Malaysian mentality - we tend to think something is better simply because it's more talked of than its alternatives. The same applies to the case of Melb and UNSW... Why should one conform to the norm? Ever heard of the catch-phrase: "A thousand flies like it; it can't be bad!"? Are we to be "flies" who just follow blindly? To those of you who're in Melb, please do not mistake me to mean that you're equal to "flies" - believe me when I say I have high regards for my Melb counterparts... All I'm trying to say here is that one should form his/her own opinions objectively after looking from all perspectives rather than jumping on the bandwagon just because everyone else is doing so. It is this process of critical thinking and analysis that makes us "individuals" and not mere replicas or clones of each other...

[Patrick]

Or is it because Melb has got more successful alumni?

Or is it because Melb has got higher admission standards?

By no means I'm equating admission standards with quality, but don't you think it's logical that 'harder to get' things are better? I have the tendency of simplifying things - my favourite when I study :) , so bear with me

[pangping1510]

some people with perfect ter/uai cant get into unsw. simply because they cant pass the interview. you cant simply say that the its harder to get into melb.

[jane_gun]

Or is it because Melb has got more successful alumni?

Or is it because Melb has got higher admission standards?

By no means I'm equating admission standards with quality, but don't you think it's logical that 'harder to get' things are better? I have the tendency of simplifying things - my favourite when I study :) , so bear with me

More successful alumni? I concur that perhaps yes. But like the word "alumni" suggests, it's of the past - we should follow the current tide rather than dwelling in the past, if you get what I mean... Higher admission standards? I beg to differ. Melb only looks at your academic grade while UNSW not only assesses a candidate's academic performance but also the extra co-curricular achievements plus there's an interview involved - we want an all-rounded graduate at the end of the day, not a super-genius doctor who fails miserably in communicating with and serving the patients, leaving them dissatisfied overall...

[Patrick]

Or is it because Melb has got more successful alumni?

Or is it because Melb has got higher admission standards?

By no means I'm equating admission standards with quality, but don't you think it's logical that 'harder to get' things are better? I have the tendency of simplifying things - my favourite when I study :) , so bear with me

More successful alumni? I concur that perhaps yes. But like the word "alumni" suggests, it's of the past - we should follow the current tide rather than dwelling in the past, if you get what I mean... Higher admission standards? I beg to differ. Melb only looks at your academic grade while UNSW not only assesses a candidate's academic performance but also the extra co-curricular achievements plus there's an interview involved - we want an all-rounded graduate at the end of the day, not a super-genius doctor who fails miserably in communicating with and serving the patients, leaving them dissatisfied overall...

Yeah, I agree that we should not dwell in the past. So, are you saying that currently, Melb is not as good as it was?

Oh kay, so there are merits in the admission systems of both unis.
One is geared to produce doctors that serve patients.
Another is geared to produce researchers.

By the way, a super-genius doctor can be an excellent researcher, so you can't say that he's bad just because he can't communicate well.

[jane_gun]

Or is it because Melb has got more successful alumni?

Or is it because Melb has got higher admission standards?

By no means I'm equating admission standards with quality, but don't you think it's logical that 'harder to get' things are better? I have the tendency of simplifying things - my favourite when I study :) , so bear with me

More successful alumni? I concur that perhaps yes. But like the word "alumni" suggests, it's of the past - we should follow the current tide rather than dwelling in the past, if you get what I mean... Higher admission standards? I beg to differ. Melb only looks at your academic grade while UNSW not only assesses a candidate's academic performance but also the extra co-curricular achievements plus there's an interview involved - we want an all-rounded graduate at the end of the day, not a super-genius doctor who fails miserably in communicating with and serving the patients, leaving them dissatisfied overall...

Yeah, I agree that we should not dwell in the past. So, are you saying that currently, Melb is not as good as it was?

Oh kay, so there are merits in the admission systems of both unis.
One is geared to produce doctors that serve patients.
Another is geared to produce researchers.

By the way, a super-genius doctor can be an excellent researcher, so you can't say that he's bad just because he can't communicate well.

I'm not saying Melb isn't as good as it was but at the same time, UNSW isn't as "bad" as it was - that's what I'm getting at... Ah yes, a super-genius doctor can be an excellent researcher but those aiming at mainstream research in the long-run should be looking more into biomed or related courses rather than med itself...

[youngyew]

I am having an exam now, but I would just roughly give a few Melburnian perspective here:

1. About vibrant city life.. Go ask a Melburnian, he would tell you Melbourne is the best; go ask a Sydneysider, he would tell you Sydney is the best. Many of our friends from Sydney enjoyed Melbourne tremendously when they came for a trip, and I personally like Sydney too when I go there, although I do enjoy Melbourne equally.

So it's a very personal thing, and to bicker about which city is cooler is childish.


2. At Melbourne Uni, there's also a research year called Advanced Medical Science, where you will have the chance to work with renowned researcher for one year, and you do have the chance to have paper published as well. I am not sure which uni is better though, but I do know that Melbourne is pretty established when it comes to researches.

Do bear in mind though, some people feel that a research year could widen their vista about the whole biomedical work; but some people feel it's a total waste of time. It is up to you how much you earn from it.


3. Melbourne is turning into post-graduate medicine within the next few years (it's so confusing I'm not even sure which year they are going to stop accepting undergraduate students). In other words, it's going to be the US system - you will have to graduate from another course before you can study medicine.

This has nothing to do with research, so no, Melbourne is not "turning into a research university". In fact Melbourne has always been a research university.


4. In Melbourne there are 3 major clinical schools for international students, NOT one. Some hospitals are rather crowded; but some aren't. But overall the quality is very good.


5. There are various lists from the THES ranking. There is an "overall ranking", but there are also individual ranking for categories like "engineering", "biomedicine", "arts and humanities" etc. For biomedicine, Melbourne ranks as the 7th in the world, Monash 19th, Sydney 20th. I am not sure about UNSW. (Read here (http://rankingwatch.blogspot.com/2006/11/best-universities-for-biomedicine-thes.html) for more information)

Do bear in mind though, the ranking is largely based on review on the research performance of the universities, and it's true that research quality doesn't necessarily reflect the teaching quality.


6. Melbourne's food is good. So is shopping. Haha :D


So yeah, the question remains, which uni is better? I can tell you that everyone will tell you that their university is the best. From the admission score, Melbourne is the hardest as far as I know; but as you have heard from jane_gun and zeroth, UNSW has a very well-organized and recognized course as well. So I can't give you a definitive answer, as there are so many personal factors that need to be taken into consideration.

[jane_gun]

But anyways, I've got some stuff to back up my stance.
1. Melbourne is ranked quite highly in the THES rankings, as compared to UNSW. Although inconclusive, this certainly gives you a rough idea of Melbourne.
2. I heard that Melbourne is gearing up to be a research-based university in medicine. You should find this out.
3. My friend, a 2nd year medic in Melbourne, said that the course is excellent. He is impressed with the way Melbourne integrates book-based learning with practicals in hospitals. This is HIS VIEW.
4. Melbourne offers you a vibrant city life, and is probably the most happening city in Australia. (But if you don't like city life, then this becomes a bad point)

Just want to clarify some points:
1. THES rankings does not specifically rank the medicine course, it's an overrall ranking if I'm not mistaken.
2. Going into research based medicine has nothing to do with the medicine course, it certainly improves their ranking, but as a student you'll probably feel nothing special. In UNSW you will spend a year doing research in something we call the independant learning project (ILP), some people even get a chance to have their research published in journals.
3. Again, that's an opinion. Furthermore that opinion is based on the fact that Melbourne uni is good. It's not a comparison opinion as some other unis can be 'better' than the good. He did not study in both unis, so comparisons cannot be truly made. Many people doing med in UNSW were happy with their course.
4. On the contrary, Sydney city probably offers as much vibrant life as Melbourne. I like Melbourne's trams though.. hehe!

Please do take note of the words that I've used.
1. Take note of "inconclusive" and "rough idea"
2. I asked the thread starter to find this out himself.
3. This is what I've heard.
4. Take note of "probably"

I think jane's being very defensive and is going to launch a nuclear missile right to my home....*runs and hides*

Lol, don't worry - there won't be any missiles... I just enjoy active discussion... =)

[jane_gun]

4. In Melbourne there are 3 major clinical schools for international students, NOT one. Some hospitals are rather crowded; but some aren't. But overall the quality is very good.


Hmm, these 3 major clinical schools don't apply to all med years, no? Coz I do have Melb med friends too and all the 1st years attend the one and same teaching hospital...

[youngyew]

4. In Melbourne there are 3 major clinical schools for international students, NOT one. Some hospitals are rather crowded; but some aren't. But overall the quality is very good.


Hmm, these 3 major clinical schools don't apply to all med years, no? Coz I do have Melb med friends too and all the 1st years attend the one and same teaching hospital...
The three major clinical schools apply to clinical years, i.e. the last 2.5 years.

The first year do go to many hospitals for placements, but it is more for "exposure to clinical medicine" where they basically just learn about things like communication skills. I am not sure what happened to your friend though, probably you want to clarify about the one clinical school. When I was in first year, we were sent to 7 or 8 hospitals / clinics for the placements.

[pangping1510]

haha. there is no ranking for medical school. looking at biomedicine ranking is a different thing imo.

just do more self-directed learning and everyone can be good doctors. =)

[jane_gun]

4. In Melbourne there are 3 major clinical schools for international students, NOT one. Some hospitals are rather crowded; but some aren't. But overall the quality is very good.


Hmm, these 3 major clinical schools don't apply to all med years, no? Coz I do have Melb med friends too and all the 1st years attend the one and same teaching hospital...
The three major clinical schools apply to clinical years, i.e. the last 2.5 years.

The first year do go to many hospitals for placements, but it is more for "exposure to clinical medicine" where they basically just learn about things like communication skills. I am not sure what happened to your friend though, probably you want to clarify about the one clinical school. When I was in first year, we were sent to 7 or 8 hospitals / clinics for the placements.

Thanks for the clarification... Perhaps the system has changed; either way we were actually comparing the clinical exposure in the earlier years (i.e. 1st and 2nd years)... Something I enjoy about the UNSW system is that we don't just learn communication skills but also procedural skills as well - I don't mean to degrade any of you Melb people; like I said before, I have equally high regards for you guys...

[youngyew]

haha. there is no ranking for medical school. looking at biomedicine ranking is a different thing imo.

just do more self-directed learning and everyone can be good doctors. =)
Agreed. Basically the "biomedical ranking" is just an indicator of how well a university's researchers are doing in terms of the research in that particular field. It's not very much related to the quality of teaching, although one might argue that studying in a better research institution could give you an edge in future undertaking. I am not sure how true that is though.

[pangping1510]

haha. dont kill people start fire can d la.

p/s: youngyew-gd luck in exam...haha...

[jane_gun]

I am having an exam now.

All the best for your exams and enjoy AMS (read about it in your blog)! ^_^

[Zeroth]

Please do take note of the words that I've used.
1. Take note of "inconclusive" and "rough idea"
2. I asked the thread starter to find this out himself.
3. This is what I've heard.
4. Take note of "probably"

haha, i dunno why u are countering that post of mine.. it was not intended as a counter to urs, just a clarification.. cheers! :P

On admission, personally i think Melbourne U is easier coz you don't need interview (during my time, maybe it has changed). Maybe i'm wrong.. :P

Jane, this is Alex by the way.. hehe!


So yeah, the question remains, which uni is better? I can tell you that everyone will tell you that their university is the best. From the admission score, Melbourne is the hardest as far as I know; but as you have heard from jane_gun and zeroth, UNSW has a very well-organized and recognized course as well. So I can't give you a definitive answer, as there are so many personal factors that need to be taken into consideration.

In the end it has not been answered.. :P I would take melbourne U if the offer came a month earlier for me though.. I really liked Melbourne city.. hehe!

Again i have to emphasise, UNSW medicine course is pretty much still in its late 'beta' stages. The new course is only 4 years old and there are certainly areas to improve upon.

[Patrick]

Please do take note of the words that I've used.
1. Take note of "inconclusive" and "rough idea"
2. I asked the thread starter to find this out himself.
3. This is what I've heard.
4. Take note of "probably"

haha, i dunno why u are countering that post of mine.. it was not intended as a counter to urs, just a clarification.. cheers! :P

On admission, personally i think Melbourne U is easier coz you don't need interview (during my time, maybe it has changed). Maybe i'm wrong.. :P

Jane, this is Alex by the way.. hehe!

Oh, that's for jane to read, after she posted the "ganas" post....
I chose to quote yours cause your points were organised, so, the message can be understood clearly.

[jane_gun]

[quote]Jane, this is Alex by the way.. hehe!Hehe, I know that from your profile (e.g. your blog) - Pang Ping also told me - in fact, it's she who got me over to spend more than 3 hours here in recom tonight instead of doing my assignment, lol...

In the end it has not been answered.. :P I would take melbourne U if the offer came a month earlier for me though.. I really liked Melbourne city.. hehe! Sorry about that man... You did A-Levels June intake in Taylors right? Pretty bad timing - I was a little more fortunate since I had more than 6 months to kill after my A-Levels Jan intake in HELP... I love the lifestyle in Melb too but I prefer the edu system in UNSW, hehe...

Again i have to emphasise, UNSW medicine course is pretty much still in its late 'beta' stages. The new course is only 4 years old and there are certainly areas to improve upon. Yup, but thanks to seniors like you who gave feedback in CATEI, a lot of things have been revamped for the better! Also, I'm constantly amazed at how fast the med fac staff and lecturers reply to my emails. There was once when I emailed Gary Velan at 11PM and less than 5 minutes later, a reply came back from him! <jaws dropping>

Ok, really need to go do that assignment now... =P

[jane_gun]

Oh, that's for jane to read, after she posted the "ganas" post....
I chose to quote yours cause your points were organised, so, the message can be understood clearly. Hehe, sorry Pat for being so "ganas" - point noted! =)

Ps. Now you really don't need to go hide in that bomb shelter of yours anymore... =P

[Zeroth]

lol! it is improving, the integrated clinical and communications courses are one good example. Recom will eat you up if facebook haven't, haha!

On a side note, Youngyew, do you want to set up a information section for Australian medicine universities after your exam? I'm getting same questions over and over again.. it'll be easier if i can refer them to a place..

[Loson]

Hi,

I'm a A level student in Inti.
I'm thinking of studying med either in UNSW or Melb.
However, I'm not sure which one is good.
Can ppl in the unis give some advice?
I would like to know more about the assessment..
I'm the studious type, tat's y i m doing a level.
Which uni suits me better?

no point arguing.. it's obvious Melb is better, although Cambrige, UK is better than any Aus Med..

my points r unorganized.. use common sense if need to...

tis r wat i thought :
1) Melb ppl get extra degree..they learn more about research
2)IMU-Melb ppl(5.5 year, no waiting time if join aug batch) do not get the B of med science, if i'm not wrong, so there's difference.
3) IMU-UNSW ppl get same degree as UNSW 6-year ppl.

tis r from insider's perspecti

project works
- can ask the doctors in ur family to do them
- no consistency..ur grades depend vy much who's the idiot marking ur proj.. when u think it sucks, u get high grades...u get a fail when ur peer's with an obviously lousy proj get high grades.
- telling cock n bull stor in reflectives, portfo or whatever bullshit assignm wouldn't help u become a good doctor
- im sure u can come out with more drawback on this

Lectures
- listen to some of them. u think u learn something, actually nothing much.. in fact, only a few that don't sucks.
- u get lecture slides, not lecture notes. again, u think u learn something, actually nothing.

Scenario group
- a waste of time

Hospital attachment
- depends on d doctor u get.. some good some not..just some exposure.. nothing much..

Clinical Skills Centre
- tis is d only thing tat works. tis u really learn something, although not much

others
- unsw new med end products not out yet.. wait another few years n we can compare..
(may be we can compare jane's medical knowledge n technical skills with those from Melb?)
- refer the Good University Guide, although they concern old products..
- reflective learning, a term used when ppl dun know how to teach..
- dun know in wat phase u need to join something not medicine..waste of time + waste of money

unswasia had 148 students. initial target- 15,000, then revised to 2000*. Then revised to 0.
my friend's hoping tat they've not put the same creativity into the med progr, which they've put into unswasia.


if u r in inti AL, then apply UK. coz fees r almost the same after conversion. most courses without intercalated r 5-years ..apply around sept tis year for nx year sept entry..if completing al tis june n din apply last year, then too bad.. go melb if u can.. fees r comparable, if not more than UKs'

i love discussion.. agree or disagree..

*anticipated 300. they r good at numbers.

[Zeroth]

no point arguing.. it's obvious Melb is better, although Cambrige, UK is better than any Aus Med..

my points r unorganized.. use common sense if need to...

tis r wat i thought :
1) Melb ppl get extra degree..they learn more about research
2)IMU-Melb ppl(5.5 year, no waiting time if join aug batch) do not get the B of med science, if i'm not wrong, so there's difference.
3) IMU-UNSW ppl get same degree as UNSW 6-year ppl.

tis r from insider's perspecti

project works
- can ask the doctors in ur family to do them
- no consistency..ur grades depend vy much who's the idiot marking ur proj.. when u think it sucks, u get high grades...u get a fail when ur peer's with an obviously lousy proj get high grades.
- telling cock n bull stor in reflectives, portfo or whatever bullshit assignm wouldn't help u become a good doctor
- im sure u can come out with more drawback on this

Lectures
- listen to some of them. u think u learn something, actually nothing much.. in fact, only a few that don't sucks.
- u get lecture slides, not lecture notes. again, u think u learn something, actually nothing.

Scenario group
- a waste of time

Hospital attachment
- depends on d doctor u get.. some good some not..just some exposure.. nothing much..

Clinical Skills Centre
- tis is d only thing tat works. tis u really learn something, although not much

others
- unsw new med end products not out yet.. wait another few years n we can compare..
(may be we can compare jane's medical knowledge n technical skills with those from Melb?)
- refer the Good University Guide, although they concern old products..
- reflective learning, a term used when ppl dun know how to teach..
- dun know in wat phase u need to join something not medicine..waste of time + waste of money

unswasia had 148 students. initial target- 15,000 then revised to 2000, then revised to 0.
my friend's hoping tat they've not put the same creativity into the med progr, which they've put into unswasia.


if u r in inti AL, then apply UK. coz fees r almost the same after conversion. most courses without intercalated r 5-years ..apply around sept tis year for nx year sept entry..if completing al tis june n din apply last year, then too bad.. go melb if u can.. fees r comparable, if not more than UKs'

i love discussion.. agree or disagree..

I assume you are currently a student in UNSW.

Hehe, you are right, scenario groups are a waste of time.

However:

Not getting lecture notes: You are not expected to only use the lecture notes to learn. You are expected to use the lecture contents and learn more about them yourself. That is the basis of self directed learning. If you just want to be spoon fed, you're in the wrong Uni. In fact, I don't think many uni's spoon feed u anyway. On a side note, I do think the lecture notes are useful although there are always crappy lecturers. Again, every uni have crappy lecturer and good lecturers. Regarding clinicals, of course it depends on the doctor you get. Any Universities you go to, any hospital you go to, it depends on the doctor you get.

The communications stuff was much worse, we used to have 2 hours worth of communications study. Thanks to our feedback you guys get the new integrated clinical studies. In my opinion it is a very useful session, and the clinical skills that we learn are still useful even until now.

[Zeroth]

Again, like I said, it's in a beta stage, so there are bound to have problems along the way.

[jay3349]

Med learning in Australia or anywhere else in the world is about how much effort you put in, except places like India and Indonesia (where you get spoon-fed).

I think medicine in Australia is especially good just because of the quality of students. The Cambridge people can talk all they want, Med in Australia has the highest requirements, even for Australians. You learn as much from your peers as from your lecturers.

UNSW might have a few glitches along the way but it is still considered to be one of the best in Australia.

UniMelb is the most prestigious and is harder to get in than Cambridge. So, even if the uni does not teach well, they still get the best graduates, due to their own effort.

If you are looking for outright teaching in Med in Australia, forget it. I am in UWA, and I have friends in UNSW, UniMelb, and Monash, and they all say the same thing, it's all about your own personal effort. UWA might have the most teaching among all, and I can tell you it is definitely not enough even to answer your exams.

[Zeroth]

UniMelb is the most prestigious and is harder to get in than Cambridge. So, even if the uni does not teach well, they still get the best graduates, due to their own effort.

Really? For me melbourne U is easy to get in, just get straight A in your A levels, lol! Of course i'm overgeneralising.. :P

Medicine is always about learning how to learn, and building up your knowledge as you go. You are right. :)

[Loson]

was talking bout patrick..cambri med.. izzit?

i'd say cambri harder to get..
I know ppl with str8 A s in AL n spm, applied melb early all got offers..
cambri, u need ps, bmat, interview, etc.

anyway, talking bout value for money, dun come Aus med.
estimated total tuition fees for med in Melb is around $320,000, UNSW- $270,000, others around $200,000.
Uk. Edinburgh most exp if I'm not wrong. Cambri not so coz can get trust fund..others around ?90,000. Oxford i dun know, got ppl apply or not?

value for money.. u can calculate..
value for time.. calculate again..

[Patrick]

was talking bout patrick..cambri med.. izzit?

i'd say cambri harder to get..
I know ppl with str8 A s in AL n spm, applied melb early all got offers..
cambri, u need ps, bmat, interview, etc.

anyway, talking bout value for money, dun come Aus med.
estimated total tuition fees for med in Melb is around $320,000, UNSW- $270,000, others around $200,000.
Uk. Edinburgh most exp if I'm not wrong. Cambri not so coz can get trust fund..others around ?90,000. Oxford i dun know, got ppl apply or not?

value for money.. u can calculate..
value for time.. calculate again..

When you talk about 'hardest' to get, I don't think anyone will be able to give you a definite answer. Each university wants something different. And, having received an offer from Cam, and not Edinburgh, I really don't know what to say.

But, yeah, the application process for Cam is painstakingly tiring, especially the BMAT. I think I got lucky because I had high BMAT marks. And the government-imposed quota of 20 international students yearly makes the application very risky.

Yeah, there's the Cambridge Commonwealth Fund for students who require financial aid.

[jane_gun]

no point arguing.. it's obvious Melb is better, although Cambrige, UK is better than any Aus Med..

my points r unorganized.. use common sense if need to...

tis r wat i thought :
1) Melb ppl get extra degree..they learn more about research
2)IMU-Melb ppl(5.5 year, no waiting time if join aug batch) do not get the B of med science, if i'm not wrong, so there's difference.
3) IMU-UNSW ppl get same degree as UNSW 6-year ppl.

tis r from insider's perspecti

project works
- can ask the doctors in ur family to do them
- no consistency..ur grades depend vy much who's the idiot marking ur proj.. when u think it sucks, u get high grades...u get a fail when ur peer's with an obviously lousy proj get high grades.
- telling cock n bull stor in reflectives, portfo or whatever bullshit assignm wouldn't help u become a good doctor
- im sure u can come out with more drawback on this

Lectures
- listen to some of them. u think u learn something, actually nothing much.. in fact, only a few that don't sucks.
- u get lecture slides, not lecture notes. again, u think u learn something, actually nothing.

Scenario group
- a waste of time

Hospital attachment
- depends on d doctor u get.. some good some not..just some exposure.. nothing much..

Clinical Skills Centre
- tis is d only thing tat works. tis u really learn something, although not much

others
- unsw new med end products not out yet.. wait another few years n we can compare..
(may be we can compare jane's medical knowledge n technical skills with those from Melb?)
- refer the Good University Guide, although they concern old products..
- reflective learning, a term used when ppl dun know how to teach..
- dun know in wat phase u need to join something not medicine..waste of time + waste of money

unswasia had 148 students. initial target- 15,000 then revised to 2000, then revised to 0.
my friend's hoping tat they've not put the same creativity into the med progr, which they've put into unswasia.


if u r in inti AL, then apply UK. coz fees r almost the same after conversion. most courses without intercalated r 5-years ..apply around sept tis year for nx year sept entry..if completing al tis june n din apply last year, then too bad.. go melb if u can.. fees r comparable, if not more than UKs'

i love discussion.. agree or disagree..

I assume you are currently a student in UNSW.

Hehe, you are right, scenario groups are a waste of time.

However:

Not getting lecture notes: You are not expected to only use the lecture notes to learn. You are expected to use the lecture contents and learn more about them yourself. That is the basis of self directed learning. If you just want to be spoon fed, you're in the wrong Uni. In fact, I don't think many uni's spoon feed u anyway. On a side note, I do think the lecture notes are useful although there are always crappy lecturers. Again, every uni have crappy lecturer and good lecturers. Regarding clinicals, of course it depends on the doctor you get. Any Universities you go to, any hospital you go to, it depends on the doctor you get.

The communications stuff was much worse, we used to have 2 hours worth of communications study. Thanks to our feedback you guys get the new integrated clinical studies. In my opinion it is a very useful session, and the clinical skills that we learn are still useful even until now.

Agree with you... But SGS are getting better - then again, like everything else, it depends on which facilitator you get...

[jane_gun]

tis r wat i thought :
1) Melb ppl get extra degree..they learn more about research
2)IMU-Melb ppl(5.5 year, no waiting time if join aug batch) do not get the B of med science, if i'm not wrong, so there's difference.
3) IMU-UNSW ppl get same degree as UNSW 6-year ppl.

tis r from insider's perspecti

project works
- can ask the doctors in ur family to do them
- no consistency..ur grades depend vy much who's the idiot marking ur proj.. when u think it sucks, u get high grades...u get a fail when ur peer's with an obviously lousy proj get high grades.
- telling cock n bull stor in reflectives, portfo or whatever bullshit assignm wouldn't help u become a good doctor
- im sure u can come out with more drawback on this


Studying isn't just about getting a piece of paper called "degree" - if one enrols to do med in Melb just for that extra one degree, they obviously got their motivations wrong... I was once tempted by that "bonus" when deciding between UNSW and Melb but after much sense knocked into my head by different lecturers, friends and seniors (both in UNSW and Melb), I decided that at the end of the day, I'll be more of a practitioner than a researcher so the extra degree doesn't really matter - plus UNSW's ILP compensates for that too...

You actually asked the doctor in your family to do your projects?! Come on, projects are a team's effort, not something you can take lightly and just chuck it at some friend/family doctor to do it for you when I'm sure they've got better things to do, like serving their patients... With such kind of attitudes, why am I not surprised that you're complaining of getting lousy grades compared to your peers? Perhaps you should start examining your own work before pushing the blame to some examiner "idiot", whom I doubt are all that "idiotic" (though they can be a little "weird" at times) when they've got so many years of experience behind them... And it's apparent that you're not maximising the opportunities given in reflectives, portfolio, etc. - I find that it helps me understand myself better rather than just focusing on the sciences all the time; it's not all cock-and-bull, you know... Unless you happen to be so shallow that you have to resort to that, which I don't think so, right? =)

If there's one thing bad about UNSW, it's this - it fails to screen for students like you who only know how to criticise and not appreciate the better side of things. Then again, I don't think Melb screens for such students either when all they look at is just your grades (they don't even have an interview!)... =P

I'm not saying that UNSW is everyone's paradise and is oh-so-wonderful - there are of course some flaws here and there and it ain't all perfect but then again, which uni is?

[jane_gun]

Med learning in Australia or anywhere else in the world is about how much effort you put in, except places like India and Indonesia (where you get spoon-fed).

I think medicine in Australia is especially good just because of the quality of students. The Cambridge people can talk all they want, Med in Australia has the highest requirements, even for Australians. You learn as much from your peers as from your lecturers.

UNSW might have a few glitches along the way but it is still considered to be one of the best in Australia.

UniMelb is the most prestigious and is harder to get in than Cambridge. So, even if the uni does not teach well, they still get the best graduates, due to their own effort.

If you are looking for outright teaching in Med in Australia, forget it. I am in UWA, and I have friends in UNSW, UniMelb, and Monash, and they all say the same thing, it's all about your own personal effort. UWA might have the most teaching among all, and I can tell you it is definitely not enough even to answer your exams.

Yes, many Aussies would say the same that UNSW's one of the best... Melb might seem the most prestigious among Malaysians but it definitely isn't the scenario here among the Aussies - they consider Melb to be just another uni... A couple of Aussie friends I know got accepted into all the unis offering med in Aus but they chose UNSW in the end (and no, they're not living in Sydney nor NSW)... Honestly speaking, I would much prefer UWA to Melb. Melb is so saturated (their international student quota is the highest of all the unis)... And yes, Aus is starting to overtake UK in med education. Even if I got a place to do med in Cambridge (which will never happen since I never applied for med in UK), I may not have accepted it. Again Camb's starting to get way too over-rated - I actually turned down the chance to read law in Camb to pursue med in UNSW... And yes, at the end of the day, it all boils down to personal effort - doesn't really matter if you end up in the best or just ok uni in the world; if you set your mind to accomplish something and work towards it, you will succeed...

[Loson]

tis r wat i thought :
1) Melb ppl get extra degree..they learn more about research
2)IMU-Melb ppl(5.5 year, no waiting time if join aug batch) do not get the B of med science, if i'm not wrong, so there's difference.
3) IMU-UNSW ppl get same degree as UNSW 6-year ppl.

tis r from insider's perspecti

project works
- can ask the doctors in ur family to do them
- no consistency..ur grades depend vy much who's the idiot marking ur proj.. when u think it sucks, u get high grades...u get a fail when ur peer's with an obviously lousy proj get high grades.
- telling cock n bull stor in reflectives, portfo or whatever bullshit assignm wouldn't help u become a good doctor
- im sure u can come out with more drawback on this


Studying isn't just about getting a piece of paper called "degree" - if one enrols to do med in Melb just for that extra one degree, they obviously got their motivations wrong... I was once tempted by that "bonus" when deciding between UNSW and Melb but after much sense knocked into my head by different lecturers, friends and seniors (both in UNSW and Melb), I decided that at the end of the day, I'll be more of a practitioner than a researcher so the extra degree doesn't really matter - plus UNSW's ILP compensates for that too...

You actually asked the doctor in your family to do your projects?! Come on, projects are a team's effort, not something you can take lightly and just chuck it at some friend/family doctor to do it for you when I'm sure they've got better things to do, like serving their patients... With such kind of attitudes, why am I not surprised that you're complaining of getting lousy grades compared to your peers? Perhaps you should start examining your own work before pushing the blame to some examiner "idiot", whom I doubt are all that "idiotic" (though they can be a little "weird" at times) when they've got so many years of experience behind them... And it's apparent that you're not maximising the opportunities given in reflectives, portfolio, etc. - I find that it helps me understand myself better rather than just focusing on the sciences all the time; it's not all cock-and-bull, you know... Unless you happen to be so shallow that you have to resort to that, which I don't think so, right? =)

If there's one thing bad about UNSW, it's this - it fails to screen for students like you who only know how to criticise and not appreciate the better side of things. Then again, I don't think Melb screens for such students either when all they look at is just your grades (they don't even have an interview!)... =P

I'm not saying that UNSW is everyone's paradise and is oh-so-wonderful - there are of course some flaws here and there and it ain't all perfect but then again, which uni is?

what r u talking about?
ur argument is so flawed.
We are comparing different med progr here.
What I said - the weaknesses of UNSW med.
u should tell the audience bout the pros, and counter the cons that i mentioned.
u may also question the integrity of my points, but plz back them with logical reasoning or evidence

For example, about students asking others to do their assignments, u can talk about what unsw has done to prevent this.

Bout the inconsistency, how unsw ensure consistency in the marking of project works? maybe hav the same markers for all projs? or having more than 5 markers for a proj and take the average? although i dun think any of these will work.

How to become a good doctor by putting stuff on some papers? and how to check the validity of what's claimed?

I'm questioning the reliability of project works, which form a major part of assessment. what can project works test? medical knowledge? team work? jane's irrelevant argument?

perhaps we can later list out the pros and cons of med in Melb and other unis.
after that, we can weigh them and make a proper conclusion, ok?

btw, do u reason like that in ur projects n pass all of them?

[pangping1510]

haha.i agree! though some say that unsw is not teaching us much, but hey, its a 'self-directed learning' thing, it's your own effort. how much can a uni spoon feed you? when you graduate and go out to the real world, are you going back to your professor in ur uni and ask him/her to update you with the latest med knowledge??haha.think about it.

things have to change.i personally salute the unsw med fac for taking a big step in creating a new med prog, when the previous prog was already one of the best(if not best)in aus.

again,i am not saying that unsw is THE place to do med.but i like uwa blue histology.haha.looks cool.

a student with perfect uai100,high umat score cant get in unsw.so basically melb just take in students with high scores.

ok la.must be thankful to hav the chance to do med.a lot of ppl are not so fortunate. put in more effort ba. XD

[jane_gun]

tis r wat i thought :
1) Melb ppl get extra degree..they learn more about research
2)IMU-Melb ppl(5.5 year, no waiting time if join aug batch) do not get the B of med science, if i'm not wrong, so there's difference.
3) IMU-UNSW ppl get same degree as UNSW 6-year ppl.

tis r from insider's perspecti

project works
- can ask the doctors in ur family to do them
- no consistency..ur grades depend vy much who's the idiot marking ur proj.. when u think it sucks, u get high grades...u get a fail when ur peer's with an obviously lousy proj get high grades.
- telling cock n bull stor in reflectives, portfo or whatever bullshit assignm wouldn't help u become a good doctor
- im sure u can come out with more drawback on this


Studying isn't just about getting a piece of paper called "degree" - if one enrols to do med in Melb just for that extra one degree, they obviously got their motivations wrong... I was once tempted by that "bonus" when deciding between UNSW and Melb but after much sense knocked into my head by different lecturers, friends and seniors (both in UNSW and Melb), I decided that at the end of the day, I'll be more of a practitioner than a researcher so the extra degree doesn't really matter - plus UNSW's ILP compensates for that too...

You actually asked the doctor in your family to do your projects?! Come on, projects are a team's effort, not something you can take lightly and just chuck it at some friend/family doctor to do it for you when I'm sure they've got better things to do, like serving their patients... With such kind of attitudes, why am I not surprised that you're complaining of getting lousy grades compared to your peers? Perhaps you should start examining your own work before pushing the blame to some examiner "idiot", whom I doubt are all that "idiotic" (though they can be a little "weird" at times) when they've got so many years of experience behind them... And it's apparent that you're not maximising the opportunities given in reflectives, portfolio, etc. - I find that it helps me understand myself better rather than just focusing on the sciences all the time; it's not all cock-and-bull, you know... Unless you happen to be so shallow that you have to resort to that, which I don't think so, right? =)

If there's one thing bad about UNSW, it's this - it fails to screen for students like you who only know how to criticise and not appreciate the better side of things. Then again, I don't think Melb screens for such students either when all they look at is just your grades (they don't even have an interview!)... =P

I'm not saying that UNSW is everyone's paradise and is oh-so-wonderful - there are of course some flaws here and there and it ain't all perfect but then again, which uni is?

what r u talking about?
ur argument is so flawed.
We are comparing different med progr here.
What I said - the weaknesses of UNSW med.
u should tell the audience bout the pros, and counter the cons that i mentioned.
u may also question the integrity of my points, but plz back them with logical reasoning or evidence

For example, about students asking others to do their assignments, u can talk about what unsw has done to prevent this.

Bout the inconsistency, how unsw ensure consistency in the marking of project works? maybe hav the same markers for all projs? or having more than 5 markers for a proj and take the average? although i dun think any of these will work.

How to become a good doctor by putting stuff on some papers? and how to check the validity of what's claimed?

I'm questioning the reliability of project works, which form a major part of assessment. what can project works test? medical knowledge? team work? jane's irrelevant argument?

perhaps we can later list out the pros and cons of med in Melb and other unis.
after that, we can weigh them and make a proper conclusion, ok?

btw, do u reason like that in ur projects n pass all of them?

I'm merely providing a brief overview... Ok, so maybe there are students asking others to do their projects for them but hey, how's that UNSW's fault? Are you telling me that Melb does implement a system to prevent this, or any other unis for that matter? I doubt so - so your point here is irrelevant, I'm sorry... As for projects (or assignments), there are usually 1-3 markers for each topic; these markers specialise in the field that the topic questions about - so whoever who's marking your project is darn well expert enough to know what he/she's commenting about - if you don't get a good grade, it's either you haven't meet the expectations or you're just plain unlucky to get lousy group members (which do happen) dragging you down with them... You only have yourself, or your group members, to blame for poor grades... Again, people like you fail to see that uni isn't just about assessments - though they may be terchnically labelled so, projects are more of a learning opportunity for you to gain extra knowledge outside of class. And what's so wrong about assessing "teamwork"? After all, you can't expect to get along well with other colleagues, say in your internship, if you've got a crappy attitude and not be a good team player... We're bound to come across all sorts of personalities in our working life and group projects are merely an introduction on how to tackle some of these issues that will arise... Maybe you should find out more about the med course before you even enrol if you're going to be so skeptical about the whole system - I'm surprised why you're even studying in UNSW when you seem to be so against it; why not some other uni? Care to explain? Perhaps it would help if you can identify yourself and let us know which year of med you're in. I can understand your situation if you were, say, in the 1st or 2nd year of this new program coz you would have come across many disappointing moments but a lot has improved since then and let's not dwell in the past...

Ps. I don't pass my projects because of the way I reason; I pass them because I presented well-evidenced information...

[blurboyz]

Hello everyone. this is indeed a very interesting debate to read at 1am. I can't help but to leave my 2cents worth here. Currently in my third year in UNSW, enrolled in the "new" medical program, i once used to have all these doubts and questions that all of you are discussing right now. I posted questions, read forums, asked for opinions. But ultimately, it all boils down to the one decision you made.

I used to question the medical teaching in UNSW. The reduced science material compared to the old course (the 8-5 teaching with lectures, tutorials and practicals) and the emphasis on "communication". I used to hate doing assignments and projects as I am still now. I will not be able to compare the med curriculum in UNSW with UniMel. And I will have no idea which one is more superior. In fact no one does unless you underwent both of them before. Even so, there will be lots of pros and cons. I think youngyew pretty much had provided a good explanation on his medicine experience in Melb. And one should read it if you are really interested in going to UniMelb. This post is meant to be my "reflection" on my experiencein UNSW so far and it will change as time progress. Let me just summarize it:

1. Basic Sciences Issues. The reduced basic sciences and lectures is parallel to the concept of integrated curriculum. In fact, UNSW is one of the last few unis in Australia who changed their traditional course. From my knowledge, majority of the uni world is adopting the "system-based approach". They labeled it with attractive fancy names, but basically it breaks down all the anatomy, pathology, microbiology and etc.. subjects into small chunks and present them based on system and disease model. With this, there are some materials being "chucked" away and the expanding fields (immunology, psychiatry, palliative.....) is introduced. E.g. the old course used to learn the details and processes in glucose metabolism up to the minute details. The new course people thinks its unnecessary burdening the students. think about it, at the end of the day, you have to sit down and memorize all these, only to regurgitate them all out in exams and probably not gonna bother about these anymore. Anyway you don need them in your clinical years. What you need to know as a medical student is the broad concept of clinical manifestation in a diseased state. Of course, no one is gonna stop you if you are an exceptional student. You can always open up the text book and attempt to memorize the whole chunk! So don't complain if you think the lectures are inadequate.

2. Projects/Assignments. This is for Loson. You mentioned that the marking is very subjective. Well I do agree to a certain degree. You might think you deserved better grades after all the hard work you pour in. And some examiners tend to be very strict and expect a lot. But I wouldn't think that the marking is varied that much. Maybe a difference between P or P+. You can always lodge a formal complaint for a remark if you are unhappy. The whole idea of introducing these is to allow students to develop a critical and research based opinion backed by evidence. Think Evidence based medicine. For new treatment approach, you will be looking at Cochrane database in your future working career anyway to determine a treatment regimen based on RCTs. And by working with your colleagues in projects, you are indirectly learning how to communicate with each other. Again Teamwork. Don tell me you will learn that later. These soft skills are important and we always don't realise how we have improved our negotiation skills with other individuals via all these things. Laugh at this, but in years to come you will realize that medicine is not about saving patients. You will have hospital politics as well, and how will you protect your patient's best interests among all the others by just sulking and complaining that you have a bad partner. Undoubtedly as i am typing this, the reflective capability comes in very handy. (inside joke).

3. Clinical and Communications sessions. By far one of the best element in the new course. I think basically you get the main idea and since i am quite sleepy, i will pass on this. So far, the convenors have done a good job. You get patient access, records and you are given the freedom to roam around the hospital with your ID to interview/perform physical exam.

4. ILP/Honors.(research) The Australian unis strength lies here. Read up on the med faculty website if you want to know more. Depending on the topics you chose/negotiate, the amount of work varies. Some of my friends work in lab 8-5 every day. But some bludge and just go once a week. Again you have to take your own initiative. And the best thing of all, besides the allocated supervisors and topics, you can negotiate one with supervisors in field you prefer. And of course, you stand a chance of getting your work published. A very good experience if you are looking at getting into research halfway through your medical career.


I remembered the gradual transition from Phase 1 and after looking back retrospectively, I am thankful I enjoyed this course very much. It was a truly enjoyable experience. I mingled around with the local students and received a great deal of assistance from the year above me when I was in Year 1. The meds was friendly (perhaps they are scrutinized selectively to filter out the "not-so-friendly" ones form the interview?). Everyone shared notes and help each other out. (this is the essence of SGS). I don sense any selfishness amongst them (very different environment). Of course, in Malaysia students tend to be a little competitive and selfish broadly speaking. And every now and then you might encounter one disgruntled brat who is annoys the hell out of you.

I am currently in Phase 2. And the way I see it, the course has been doing great although there is a lot more room for improvements. Clinical studies is so much fun. And I am very sure regardless of whether you are in UNSW/Melbourne/UKM you will encounter a lot of experience and interesting people. You learn your medical facts from them more effectively and not from the books. And after a long day of mugging and stressing up about your exams/projects/assignments, you have the SGS session to chill out, discuss and laugh/admire/sleep at your colleagues' presentation. Whether you get something from it, depends on you yourself. There is countless numbers of resources in the guide packed with medical information for you to read up on your free time.

I have not personally experience the course in UniMelb. But I am pretty sure they have the same approach in teaching. Only a little variation here and there. As for the credibility, I am in no way qualified to compare and determine which one is better. The above is what I observed and experienced. It may not apply to everyone.

Studying medicine is a challenging yet exciting experience. Most of us (minus the exceptional genius) will spent hours studying and mugging to obtain our target. UNSW has specifically design this course to ensure we enjoy doing it and do not get too stressed out with the details. Its a life long learning process, and they have a good intention of protecting you from getting burn out at the end of six years. Also, life is not all about medicine alone. They want you to learn something and be an all rounder, sensitive enough to empathize as well as competent enough to cure. Exams are essentials but not to the level of stressing and registering fear. I have seen students who work hard but fail. It is not a pleasant experience. They are kind souls and I can see them becoming a great doctor in the future.

I await the criticism with an open mind. Zeroth will more than be happy to provide the details on Phase 2 if you guys are interested, won't you? =)

cheers

[jane_gun]

Nice "reflective" description there, blurboyz... (lol, thinking of grad caps now)... Mind "revealing" your identity so your junior here can go, "Oh, so you're the one who posted at recom!" the next time she sees you? =P

[Patrick]

4. ILP/Honors.(research) The Australian unis strength lies here. Read up on the med faculty website if you want to know more. Depending on the topics you chose/negotiate, the amount of work varies. Some of my friends work in lab 8-5 every day. But some bludge and just go once a week. Again you have to take your own initiative. And the best thing of all, besides the allocated supervisors and topics, you can negotiate one with supervisors in field you prefer. And of course, you stand a chance of getting your work published. A very good experience if you are looking at getting into research halfway through your medical career.


Isn't this the intercalated degree offered in most UK universities?

[deaf-knee]

I'm not doing med, but does anyone realise that throwing 'insults' (for lack of a better word) at melb uni (or any other uni for that matter) might offend some people?

or maybe it's just me. I wonder where my fierce pride for uni melb came from. hrmm.

[Zeroth]

Applause for blurboyz. I'm so proud of u man, you have developed highly matured way of thinking. Now let me go to my corner and reflect.. :P

Jane, blurboyz is someone we both know, lol! I'll keep u guessing :P

[Zeroth]

Isn't this the intercalated degree offered in most UK universities?

And you point is?

[youngyew]

I'm not doing med, but does anyone realise that throwing 'insults' (for lack of a better word) at melb uni (or any other uni for that matter) might offend some people?

or maybe it's just me. I wonder where my fierce pride for uni melb came from. hrmm.
Haha deaf-knee it's alright, only people who are familiar with both unis are qualified to throw legitimate insults. If an insult comes from someone who doesn't even know what Melbourne Uni is really like, it doesn't really mean anything.

[Patrick]

Isn't this the intercalated degree offered in most UK universities?

And you point is?

So, it's not really a strength of Australian universities, as pointed out by blurboyz?

[blurboyz]

Yea Patrick. I guess you are right. My bad for not realizing that UK unis do offer intercalated which is equivalent to research year. I guess every uni in the world offer this a part of med program nowadays.

Well, the bickering will come to an end somehow once the heat wears off.

Just one thing anyone have any idea concerning the medical entrance exam that foreign medical students are required to sit when they go back at the end of their course?

p/s Looks like most countries (namely US, Aus and UK) are closing their doors for postgrad training.

[Patrick]

p/s Looks like most countries (namely US, Aus and UK) are closing their doors for postgrad training.

Sad but true. Although this is way off-topic, where would you have your postgrad study when you're done with your medical degree?

[jane_gun]

Applause for blurboyz. I'm so proud of u man, you have developed highly matured way of thinking. Now let me go to my corner and reflect.. :P

Jane, blurboyz is someone we both know, lol! I'll keep u guessing :P

Lol, I figured that out... but ain't sure which JPA senior this is - more clues/hints? =P

[Zeroth]

So, it's not really a strength of Australian universities, as pointed out by blurboyz?

Just because other people has it doesnt mean it's not one of their strenght wat.. :P

Jane gun, keep guessing :P

[jane_gun]

I'm guessing it's either Choi, Vicki or MK - let me know if I've narrowed it down correctly... lol