10 things you should know about islam.

[da-hype]

http://www.hissyfit.com/hissyfits/2001_10_02.shtml


7. Culture is not religion. So much of the oppression and misogyny (female illiteracy, "honour" killing, female genital mutilation, forced marriages, physical abuse, etc.) we hear about in quasi- and pseudo-Islamic countries such as Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Iran stems from patriarchal cultural customs and baggage and not from Islam, although it's always "justified" sixty ways to Sunday with supposed religious dictates and self-serving interpretations of scripture.

If any of these countries actually thoroughly implemented Islam as intended and honoured the spirit as well as the letter of the "law," women, for example, would not only have far more rights and freedoms than they currently do in any of these countries, but the behaviour of men and the actions of governments would have to change so radically that you would probably not recognize these countries at all. Islamic concepts and requirements are that different from how these countries currently operate.




9. Jihad does not mean "holy war." This has to be one of the most damaging, most persistent myths about Islam. The Western media have helped perpetuate this, but there are plenty of benighted Muslims who insist on misapprehending and incorrectly using this term. Jihad, (which comes from the Arabic root word jahada, meaning "to toil, to exert oneself, to strive for a better way of life") is correctly translated as "struggle" or "endeavour," and can easily apply to such things as a student working to earn a medical degree or a group of people raising money to build a mosque. It can apply to the struggle to control one's temper, or to learn to read and write. Part of my husband's jihad as a Muslim is the effort it takes for him to get up in time to offer the first prayers of the day, which occur before dawn. It encompasses the idea of struggling or fighting for good or against evil, but that does not necessarily mean with violence, and it certainly does not mean that any crackpot claiming to be Muslim and waving a Qur'an around can decide who is good and who is evil, and start killing people.

[da-hype]

http://www.hissyfit.com/hissyfits/2001_10_02.shtml


7. Culture is not religion. So much of the oppression and misogyny (female illiteracy, "honour" killing, female genital mutilation, forced marriages, physical abuse, etc.) we hear about in quasi- and pseudo-Islamic countries such as Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Iran stems from patriarchal cultural customs and baggage and not from Islam, although it's always "justified" sixty ways to Sunday with supposed religious dictates and self-serving interpretations of scripture.

If any of these countries actually thoroughly implemented Islam as intended and honoured the spirit as well as the letter of the "law," women, for example, would not only have far more rights and freedoms than they currently do in any of these countries, but the behaviour of men and the actions of governments would have to change so radically that you would probably not recognize these countries at all. Islamic concepts and requirements are that different from how these countries currently operate.




9. Jihad does not mean "holy war." This has to be one of the most damaging, most persistent myths about Islam. The Western media have helped perpetuate this, but there are plenty of benighted Muslims who insist on misapprehending and incorrectly using this term. Jihad, (which comes from the Arabic root word jahada, meaning "to toil, to exert oneself, to strive for a better way of life") is correctly translated as "struggle" or "endeavour," and can easily apply to such things as a student working to earn a medical degree or a group of people raising money to build a mosque. It can apply to the struggle to control one's temper, or to learn to read and write. Part of my husband's jihad as a Muslim is the effort it takes for him to get up in time to offer the first prayers of the day, which occur before dawn. It encompasses the idea of struggling or fighting for good or against evil, but that does not necessarily mean with violence, and it certainly does not mean that any crackpot claiming to be Muslim and waving a Qur'an around can decide who is good and who is evil, and start killing people.

[FiAnS]

Good article that you have provided us with regarding Islam. This is the right time for people around the globe to learn more about this great religion. It is my hope that everyone can gain some insights on Islam, especially the non-Muslims.

[FiAnS]

Good article that you have provided us with regarding Islam. This is the right time for people around the globe to learn more about this great religion. It is my hope that everyone can gain some insights on Islam, especially the non-Muslims.

[phantom]

i realize islam is a great religion.but they are few facts about islam that doesnt make sense for me:

1) why prophet Muhammad could have 9 wives?sure,war,lack of men could be the factors....and of coz he's a prophet,but i still couldn't digest when i heard he married one of the caliph's daughter who was barely 10 (though he stayed with her when she was 12)..how come a man of 50 something married a young,bare lady?please help me to understand this..

2) sure,islam is a universal religion and that pseudo-islam countries still failed to draw a line between islam and their own cultures...but i didn't get the point when the arabs such as the syeds and syarifahs are looked up by the muslim,based solely on their lineages to prophet muhammad.

and bear also in mind,that in your prayers,the muslims chanted for the well-being of prophet muhammad's families.

and muslims look up at the arab muslims and brag about that when they have the blood of the arabs.i've seen so many malays who bragged about their arabs' blood.

how equal islam then?how fair islam could be then when those having the blood of prophet muhammad is looked up by the fellow muslims?



3) in islam,when the husband and wife go to heaven,the husband has the right to have fun (mind me,including sex) with all the nymphs in heaven....but alas,the wife will only be the queen of all her husband's nymphs?

why?

why in islam,a woman cannot be a judge in a syaria court?why biological reasons like women are more emotional is expatiated as the reason when in India for an example,a woman has ruled the world's biggest democracy nation?

why muslim men tend too sometimes forced woman to wear hijab,cover themselves to the utmost but the men can walk in a shopping mall with a medium pant,showing their knees?

does islam teach them that?or does that being westernized and yet islamnized?

i'm sorry if i sound harsh,why islam fails to treat women equally?why the double standard?

i respect hijab.what i didn't understand why force women to wear that when i surmise,islam refrain force being applied to its teaching.

[Thirdshifter]

Dear phantom,

All of your question is answered in the link provied by Da-hype. I think it pretty much covered the basic misunderstanding of Islam.

For the Muhammad 9 wife and Married Aisha when she was 9.

1. He didn't marry for the fun of having multiple partners. he married women with broken homes. He married women who were the lowest cast in the Arab society. All of his wife are of the women who are regarded as unholy and he was setting an example that all Women and men are equal etc. It was his choice of doing something radical to open the eyes of the people at that time i assume.

As for Aishah, I think it is presumably normal for the society 1500 years ago to marry at such a young age. After all my grand mother was married when she was 13 to my 22 year old grand dad.

Ofcourse in todays society it won't be acceptable. Also i wonder why is the marriage of Muhammad carries so much weight? I know jesus according to the bible had sex out of wedlock with a Prostitute.

I think to discredit a faith based on these little things which usually is a tool of the christian evangelist is absurd. Also as the unofficial Forum guideline any Disscusion about Religion should be kept at its very least. It has been proven many times that we all will end up proving nothing.

[topdog]

I know jesus according to the bible had sex out of wedlock with a Prostitute.

Third, you need to clarify your statement. Is it your opinion that the biblical Jesus had sex out of wedlock with a prostitute, or are you claiming that the Bible says Jesus had sex with a prostitute?

If you meant the latter, show me where it says so in the Bible. The Bible says nothing like that, to put it mildly.

[Thirdshifter]

Didn't he, according to the bible is involved intimately with Mary Magdalene?

Mary Magdalene was a prostitute.

Here is the relevant passage of the Gospel of Philip according to the Nag Hammadi texts:

"...the companion of the [Savior is] Mary Magdalene. [But Christ loved] her more than [all] the disciples, and used to kiss her [often] on her [mouth]. The rest of [the disciples were offended]...

According to the Quran, Jesus was never crucified. Religion is indeed soemthing we should not quarrel or even trying to dispute or defend. Either you beleive it without doubt or you just don't.

I might be agnostic?

[topdog]

OMG, no!!! According to the Bible, Jesus is the Son of God, he is God and came to Earth as Man, and he was sinless! He saved Mary Magdalene (who was a prostitute) when people were trying to stone her to death. Mary Magdalene became one of his closest followers. He definitely did not marry/have sex/have children. This is accepted as the gospel truth across all versions of mainstream Christianity. You were probably thinking of Gnostic stuff (which are basically alternative speculations about Jesus' nature). Gnosticism does NOT conform to the Bible.

About Jesus' crucifixion, my priest says there is empirical evidence that Jesus did indeed die on the cross. However, his resurrection is a matter of faith.

I agree with Thirdshifter that religion is something you either believe in or don't. No Muslim or Christian is going to say, "I believe in my religion, but only some of it." To the believer, what he/she believes in is absolute. Take it or leave it.

That is why I think we should keep religion to ourselves. It is a personal matter.

But learning about what others believe in is alright though. I just think we should refrain from questioning the tenets of others' religions.

[topdog]

Sorry...just one more thing I forgot to say. There are four Gospels in the Christian Bible: Mark, Matthew, Luke and John. There is no "Gospel of Phillip" in the Bible. Not sure what Nag Hammadi is. Probably something from all the alternative views circling around.

[Thirdshifter]

Sorry...just one more thing I forgot to say. There are four Gospels in the Christian Bible: Mark, Matthew, Luke and John. There is no "Gospel of Phillip" in the Bible. Not sure what Nag Hammadi is. Probably something from all the alternative views circling around.

Which bring us back to, how truthful is any of them? Which one should one believe and which one should be used as reference?

Basically trying to defend a belief is nothing any sane Man would attempt. If someone had shose to believe that all women has 3 Breast and even if you line up 100 topless 2 breasted women, he would still infact believe that women have 3 breast.

Thats why i ensure any discussion here do not turn into religious zealots battlefield

[topdog]

Jesus (heh), let's just clear this up once and for all. Gnostic text is NOT the Bible. That is fact. I merely wanted to point out that your assertion that the Bible says Jesus had sex is absolutely false. Whether or not one believes in the Bible is irrelevant to the question of what is written in the Bible.

[FiAnS]

Human Beings; we are created in such a way that our minds do not have the ability to think beyond our limitations. And one of them is not being able to really understand why the prophets did what they did. Personally, this issue is something that we should not argue since none of us (even the ulamas or popes) really understand the thinkings of prophets. Rather, we should just discuss the matter wisely and not going too deep that it will hurt the other party. After all, as human beings, once we believe on something, it is very hard for us to see the messages that the other party tries to convey.

[Thirdshifter]

Jesus (heh), let's just clear this up once and for all. Gnostic text is NOT the Bible. That is fact. I merely wanted to point out that your assertion that the Bible says Jesus had sex is absolutely false. Whether or not one believes in the Bible is irrelevant to the question of what is written in the Bible.

To catholics? or to All sects of christians?

[FiAnS]

Good question Thirdshifter. I was also thinking of the same question. And to add, what is and how different it is the Catholics from the Protestants? What is your say?

[topdog]

Quoting myself:
This is accepted as the gospel truth across all versions of mainstream Christianity.

I am not a theologian, but I think any Christian will tell you that "mainstream Christians" include Catholics, Protestants (e.g. Methodists, Anglicans, Baptists etc) and Eastern Orthodox. Basically all these groups agree on the concept of God as a Trinity -- God the Father, the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit, separate but one.

So, Thirdshifter, mainstream Christians really do not give a fudge about what Gnostic texts say, because it is not part of the bible. Simple as that.

Some sects like Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that Jesus is God, so they probably don't qualify as Christians in the mainstream sense. Yet some sects like the Mormons would probably seem like mainstream Christians, except that for the Mormons, their founder claimed to be a prophet and had a book sent down to him or something like that, so I do not think of Mormons as mainstream Christians.

Yet some sects like Scientology are pure garbage, misusing the words "Church" or "Jesus" to give themselves some theological weight. (Read up on Scientology, aka 'Church of Scientology' if you think I am exaggerating.)

Differences between the Catholic church and Protestant churches? Really to complicated to explain... Maybe Wikipedia could help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity

[da-hype]

phantom,



2) sure,islam is a universal religion and that pseudo-islam countries still failed to draw a line between islam and their own cultures...but i didn't get the point when the arabs such as the syeds and syarifahs are looked up by the muslim,based solely on their lineages to prophet muhammad.


and you saying christianity does not ? i'll give you 1 example... MORMONS!!!




why prophet Muhammad could have 9 wives?sure,war,lack of men could be the factors....and of coz he's a prophet,but i still couldn't digest when i heard he married one of the caliph's daughter who was barely 10 (though he stayed with her when she was 12)..how come a man of 50 something married a young,bare lady?please help me to understand this..


after Thirdshifter's explaination.. i also want to add.. i think back in the day things like that were normal. How old do you think Phocahantas was? (miss spelt her name i think). Times change. Just like the term "childhood" that term did not exist till countries became developed and children did not have to work. Even during my grand mom's time, my grand mom got amrried at the age of 18, at that time girls getting married at the age of 18 was normal. Now i personally thing it's weird :P



3) in islam,when the husband and wife go to heaven,the husband has the right to have fun (mind me,including sex) with all the nymphs in heaven....but alas,the wife will only be the queen of all her husband's nymphs?


Keep in mind words in the quran are like a poem / based on the arabic culture and way of talk back in the day. for example... if i met your dad in malaysia... like most malaysian do.. i'll call him uncle... right??? is your dad my uncle? no. Trying calling your american friends dad uncle here in the US. get what i mean. Yes it is said you will get 7 virgins bla bla bla... but it does not literary mean that. BTW it goes both ways.


why in islam,a woman cannot be a judge in a syaria court?why biological reasons like women are more emotional is expatiated as the reason when in India for an example,a woman has ruled the world's biggest democracy nation?


I'm not sure about the syaria stuff ... but u saying a women has never been a leader of an islamic country? look at our neighbour indonesia. we have women politions in malaysia. if i'm not mistaken eygpt had a women president.



why muslim men tend too sometimes forced woman to wear hijab,cover themselves to the utmost but the men can walk in a shopping mall with a medium pant,showing their knees?


men are not allowed to show their knees in islam. where did u get that from? look at malaysia man. woem are only seposed to cover their hair and not show body part. what you see on tv in iraq, afganistan and soudi arabia is culture, not religion. there is nothing in islam that says girls have to cover everything execpt their eyes!

also let me remind you.. in the teachings of moses and jesus too.. women were told to cover themself. Christianity too has nuns that cover themself? why? cause their holy people? well in islam our all our women are holly.

Judasim , christianity and islam are all from the same prophets it all started from adam. keep that in mind.

[phantom]

i was asking for explaination about islam,not bezakan antara agama islam dan agama lain.

thanks alot for da explaination.it made few points.

no need to find the so-called flaws from other religions to make your points.that's not a right way of explaining about ur religion.

anyway,thanks.

ps:didnt u follow the debate in malaysia whether a woman has the right to be a judge in a syaria court or not,and alas,80% muslims said women dont have the right.the reasons: emotional,biological.9 nafsu.have family to take care.

for me the reasons were so callow.hopefully,that didnt represent islam but the utter narrow-mindedness of certain people in malaysia.

[aquila]

Sorry...just one more thing I forgot to say. There are four Gospels in the Christian Bible: Mark, Matthew, Luke and John. There is no "Gospel of Phillip" in the Bible. Not sure what Nag Hammadi is. Probably something from all the alternative views circling around.

Which bring us back to, how truthful is any of them? Which one should one believe and which one should be used as reference?

Basically trying to defend a belief is nothing any sane Man would attempt. If someone had shose to believe that all women has 3 Breast and even if you line up 100 topless 2 breasted women, he would still infact believe that women have 3 breast.

Thats why i ensure any discussion here do not turn into religious zealots battlefield

We Christians believe that all four gospels are true (that's why they are in the Bible!!!) They are historical accounts of Jesus' life from four different perspectives. if you look at them closely, you'll be surprised at how accurate they are (in the sense that they do not contradict each other at all) keep in mind that they were written by four authors who probably did not even know one another!!!

I think the Bible is not just a holy text but an excellent text as well. Given that it has survived 2000 years of reprinting and reprinting and translations and still be accurate, that's really something to be in awe of.

I don't understand why some of you try to defend Islam by attacking Christianity. I don't see a need to go on the offensive although I admit that this is also a good way of clearing up some misunderstandings about Christianity that some of you have. My take is to look at all religions with an open mind!!! I, myself, admittedly wasn't too happy when forced to learn about Islam in secondary school but now I appreciate what I've learned about my friends' religion.

Go to www.answersingenesis.com is you have other questions about Christianity. remember, be open minded!!!

[phantom]

can we stop here.

afraid it will turn into sour conversations.

[da-hype]

aquila,

I don't think anyone is bashing each others religion. Just trying to explain that there is not much diffrence between these 3 religions. Read the URL i gave. But just want to point out something you said ...


I think the Bible is not just a holy text but an excellent text as well. Given that it has survived 2000 years of reprinting and reprinting and translations and still be accurate, that's really something to be in awe of.


I've heard diffrent. 1 example i have is... how did you get jesus from isa (his hibrew name)? Names don't change. My name is shahir reza in malaysia. and it is here in the US too. Just wondering. :D


ohh and phantom,

I was just answering all your question :D

[aquila]

aquila,

I don't think anyone is bashing each others religion. Just trying to explain that there is not much diffrence between these 3 religions. Read the URL i gave. But just want to point out something you said ...


I think the Bible is not just a holy text but an excellent text as well. Given that it has survived 2000 years of reprinting and reprinting and translations and still be accurate, that's really something to be in awe of.


I've heard diffrent. 1 example i have is... how did you get jesus from isa (his hibrew name)? Names don't change. My name is shahir reza in malaysia. and it is here in the US too. Just wondering. :D


ohh and phantom,

I was just answering all your question :D

Throwing wild accusations against other people's religion is not considered bashing? Please explain! I'm sure you don't want me to say something you know is completely untrue about Islam, correct?

Names differ in different languages. Michael in Italian is Michel, an eg. Simone is Simon. Keep in mind that the translations took place many many years ago. Hebrew to Greek to English. The reason why I use Italian examples is precisely because the translations were from romance languages to english!

The reason why your name doesnt change is because you're in the 21st century!!! Also, your name has no equivalent in the english language! Things are not as simplistic as they seem.

[wawa]

Throwing wild accusations against other people's religion is not considered bashing? Please explain! I'm sure you don't want me to say something you know is completely untrue about Islam, correct?


Many people have certain misconceptions about various religions, its not meant to be offensive. That's the impression we get about certain aspects of certain religions.

Hopefully those who realize these misconceptions can correct and let everyone know the correct version.

Aquila, you know a lot about your religion, but other blur people like me! who are free thinkers do not know much. Those 'myths or opinions' which you may find offensive have cleared up a lot of similar mistaken assumptions I have on Islam or Christianity. :lol: :wink:

[FiAnS]

I strongly suggest that we do our research thoroughly first before we decide to post our views on the subject matter. As I had posted earlier, no one has the absolute right answer to any of the questions or views because our brain is limited. We, human beings, cannot think something beyond our imagination such as why this religion is like this, whether women are allowed to become a syariah judge or not, Jesus? Isa? and so forth. From what I can see, we are defending our respective religions strongly that we could not see the rationale behind the other party's view on the subject.

As for Phantom, why women could not become a judge is a very hard question to answer if one does not really understand the Qur'an. In reality, we are using our best judgment based from what we understood from the Qur'an before we make any actions. Again, as I said, we cannot be totally right since every sentence, be it in Qur'an or the Bible, has its implicit meaning that can be interpreted differntly by different people. I hope you can understand the situation.

[qedx]

1) why prophet Muhammad could have 9 wives?sure,war,lack of men could be the factors....and of coz he's a prophet,but i still couldn't digest when i heard he married one of the caliph's daughter who was barely 10 (though he stayed with her when she was 12)..how come a man of 50 something married a young,bare lady?please help me to understand this..
On Aisyah: Arranged marriages are fairly common until recently and the Prophet was a good friend of Aisyah's father. And as for her age, until recently too, girls are considered to be of marriageable age when they started menstruating. Basically what happened was the Prophet and Abu Bakr agreed that the Prophet would marry Aisyah when she grows up. And when she did, they married. Learn to not place our current mores on people in another time and place.

but i didn't get the point when the arabs such as the syeds and syarifahs are looked up by the muslim,based solely on their lineages to prophet muhammad.
Well... I don't really care one way or another :/ Generalization. Bad.

3) in islam,when the husband and wife go to heaven,the husband has the right to have fun (mind me,including sex) with all the nymphs in heaven....but alas,the wife will only be the queen of all her husband's nymphs?
Hmmm can you give me a quote on this?

why in islam,a woman cannot be a judge in a syaria court?why biological reasons like women are more emotional is expatiated as the reason when in India for an example,a woman has ruled the world's biggest democracy nation?
And also a quote on this please?

why muslim men tend too sometimes forced woman to wear hijab,cover themselves to the utmost but the men can walk in a shopping mall with a medium pant,showing their knees?
Who says its ok for the men to wear that? They're going to hell. I guess men don't make much noise when being told to cover up. They just do it anyway :/ But I don't mind. More "nymphs" for me :D

how did you get jesus from isa (his hibrew name)?
His name in hebrew is Jesu ben Josef. And it is also fairly common to have several names back then. For instance Peter was also known as Cephas.

if you look at them closely, you'll be surprised at how accurate they are (in the sense that they do not contradict each other at all) keep in mind that they were written by four authors who probably did not even know one another!!!
The earliest of the four gospels were written 50 years after Jesus' death and the last about 150 years later. The fact that they do not contradict each other (in the big things, at least. eg. they all agreed Jesus died) can be attributed to the fact that they seem to have the same source which is why Mark, Luke and Matthew are called the Synoptic gospels. John seems to have another different source but I forget :/ (It has been 2 years and my notes are all back home). And we were not even sure as to who is exactly Mark, Luke, Matthew and John was. At best, the Gospels is a second hand account of the life of Jesus and his teachings.

[Thirdshifter]

Quoting myself:
This is accepted as the gospel truth across all versions of mainstream Christianity.

I am not a theologian, but I think any Christian will tell you that "mainstream Christians" include Catholics, Protestants (e.g. Methodists, Anglicans, Baptists etc) and Eastern Orthodox. Basically all these groups agree on the concept of God as a Trinity -- God the Father, the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit, separate but one.

So, Thirdshifter, mainstream Christians really do not give a fudge about what Gnostic texts say, because it is not part of the bible. Simple as that.

Some sects like Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that Jesus is God, so they probably don't qualify as Christians in the mainstream sense. Yet some sects like the Mormons would probably seem like mainstream Christians, except that for the Mormons, their founder claimed to be a prophet and had a book sent down to him or something like that, so I do not think of Mormons as mainstream Christians.

Yet some sects like Scientology are pure garbage, misusing the words "Church" or "Jesus" to give themselves some theological weight. (Read up on Scientology, aka 'Church of Scientology' if you think I am exaggerating.)

Differences between the Catholic church and Protestant churches? Really to complicated to explain... Maybe Wikipedia could help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity

Thats what i was trying to get out from you.

The same argument could be used for Hams, hezbollah, Al qaida and al lthe other Terrorist group. I can't say that their belief is invalid but it's different from the Mainstream Islam.

The catholics claims that it is their bible that is correct and it is them who are the rightful. Sunni Muslims claims the same about their way of practicing Islam and interpreting the Quran.

As i said earlier there's no point of arguing when it comes to belief.

[topdog]

That was what you were trying to get from me?! That wasn't very fair, because firstly, this thread is supposed to be about Islam.

Secondly, you're comparing terrorist groups that operate in the name of Islam to disagreement among Christians and non-Christians on the Bible. This is simplistic and misleading.

Thirdly, you clearly do not know enough about Christianity to be using it as an example to make the points you want to make about Islam. Your mistaken belief that the "Gospel of Philip" was from the Bible is proof enough of this. If you are so willing to cite some Gnostic text you pulled off of the Internet, why can't you accept that the Bible has been treasured by Christians for 2000 years. I do not know much about Islam and its various sects so I never make any comment/argument about Islam.

So please, everyone, explain to us ignorant non-Muslims about Islam but stop using Christianity as an example/counter-example, unlesss you consider yourself a scholar on Christianity.

[Diesel]

Are mormons christians Hmm, i donno that. in fact, the first time i heard about it was thru South Park - All About Mormons. :?:

[Thirdshifter]

That was what you were trying to get from me?! That wasn't very fair, because firstly, this thread is supposed to be about Islam.

Secondly, you're comparing terrorist groups that operate in the name of Islam to disagreement among Christians and non-Christians on the Bible. This is simplistic and misleading..

I think i made a fine example of the basic misunderstanding of Islam and religion in general.

Al qaida and few other terrorist group claims that Saudi is not a "True Muslim" country. So does Catholics claims that Jehovah witness or mormons aren't true/right or as you put it "Alternative" Christians.

Many Muslims would make the claim that Islamic terrorist are not true Muslims as well.

Even hate groups like KKK claims to be true christians. Nation of Islam a hate group as well believe that it was Negros that built the pyramids in Egypt claims to be the true teaching of Muhammad as well.

So when you made the claim that the bible is correct it's also a way of saying The Quran is not. In the Quran it pointed out that the bible has been corrupted and manipulated.

I honestly believe there's no misconception about Islam. What the terrist claims about about killing Jews are correct but thats what religion is all about total belief.

fundamentally, In Islam Everything is in the "will of Allah" so Muslims often don't bother to clear up the misinformation about Islam to others. After all it's the Will of Allah

Also, there's about 1.3 billion Muslims and the Western media chose to potray Islam from the Minority Terrorist point of view.

While the silent Muslim majority is ignored as Westernized Muslims or Moderates or Not-Really-Muslims.

Hmm, I wonder who could actually claim to be a real christian? In Islam if you don't pray 5 times a day you already considered half Islam. Lets analyze this bit of the Mainstream Bible;

Luke 16:18 "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

IExodus 20:14 "You shall not commit adultery."

Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."

In USA, about 55-60% of the population is divorced. I would assume about 0.5% of that statistic is a church going Christian who had remarried.

So Is it fair to brand them as the false version of christians?

It is us that has to start acknowledging that in a religion group as huge as Islam and Christianiaty (which i chose specifically for this argument because of this similarity) there are different sects and all of them represent the religion. Be it good or bad.

As far as i'm concerned the West generally don't think malaysian Muslims do. Arabs who love to kill Jews and infidels are the real muslims in their eyes. Malaysians are now considered in the USA as Asian-Muslims.

Why is it that, when "Moderate Muslims" try to present Islam as "religion of peace" it get thrown out as being half the truth about Islam? So it is fair to assume that most non-Muslims actually don't want to know?

The list da-hype posted is a great example of "moderate muslims" attempting to do this.

There's many way of invalidating one's belief. I could easily get many excerpts from the Quran and Quote it out of context (like i just demonstrated with the Holy Bible) and i wouldn't be surprised to see how many would actually fall for it.

[da-hype]

Secondly, you're comparing terrorist groups that operate in the name of Islam to disagreement among Christians and non-Christians on the Bible. This is simplistic and misleading.


he was giving and example.... duh...

just like it was asked in the thread why women have to cover up. I don't see why none muslims don't understand it when nuns do it too? what i'm trying to say is.. we come from the same beleif's.. and when people say islam is bad bla bla bla ... we too beleive in the teachings of jesus and moses. read the url :P


Are mormons christians Hmm, i donno that. in fact, the first time i heard about it was thru South Park - All About Mormons.


yes they are. They just beleive that after jesus there are more prophets till today.

basically the same thing as nation of islam saying their muslim.

[topdog]

Secondly, you're comparing terrorist groups that operate in the name of Islam to disagreement among Christians and non-Christians on the Bible. This is simplistic and misleading.


he was giving and example.... duh...

And I was saying it was a bad example. Reread phantom's original questions about Islam, and reread the answers to them. At no point did any of you (Muslims) say that phantoms examples were false/did not come from the Quran or Hadith. What you did was illustrate how people misinterpret/misunderstand these facets of Islam.

Now reread Thirdshifter's claim that "the bible, according to the 'gospel of philip', says that Jesus kissed Mary magdelene on the mouth." I take exception to that because it is NOT the frigging bible. It is not a question of misinterpretation/misunderstanding/relativism because it simply is NOT the Bible! Get it?

About who is a real Christian/not a real Christian, that is a question best left to academics/historians. Or let those who think they are Christians dispute it among themselves.

fundamentally, In Islam Everything is in the "will of Allah" so Muslims often don't bother to clear up the misinformation about Islam to others. After all it's the Will of Allah

Then whose fault is it that so many non-Muslims misunderstand Islam? I agree that the western media is guilty of helping spread simplistic views about Islam. I also understand how the western media's tendency to label non-Arab Muslims like Malay Muslims as "progressive" Muslims would irk you.

I also agree that the article that da-hype linked to is an example of an everyday Muslim trying to clear up misconceptions about Islam. I feel more Muslims should be doing this.

But when you get hit with hard questions don't take the easy way out and take bits and pieces out of Christianity or another religion just because it serves your purpose. And when you clearly had a misconception about Christianity (as in the case of the 'Gospel of Philip') and try to act like you know exactly what you are talking about don't expect to not be challenged.

[sanghanuman]

I think topdog has made his point and I agree with him. Internet is not a reliable source especially when we do not know much about a subject, hence our lack of direction on WHeRe to find information on (the subject).

Know that admitting to mistakes is a very honorable attitude, rather than using false statements to back up your opinion.

Cool off and do discuss the real issue here because I find the (initial) topic is very interesting.

[FiAnS]

From what I can see, none of us really understands our respective religion from A to Z. So why not we learn more about our own religion in details, before we have this argument. Because all of you are just trying so hard but it is not successful.

[Thirdshifter]

Now reread Thirdshifter's claim that "the bible, according to the 'gospel of philip', says that Jesus kissed Mary magdelene on the mouth." I take exception to that because it is NOT the frigging bible. It is not a question of misinterpretation/misunderstanding/relativism because it simply is NOT the Bible! Get it?

Gnos?tic (nstk)
adj.

gnostic Of, relating to, or possessing intellectual or spiritual knowledge

Gnos?ti?cism (nst-szm)
n.

The doctrines of certain pre-Christian pagan, Jewish, and early Christian sects that valued the revealed knowledge of God and of the origin and end of the human race as a means to attain redemption for the spiritual element in humans and that distinguished the Demiurge from the unknowable Divine Being.

Bi?ble (bbl)
n.

The sacred book of Christianity, a collection of ancient writings


Based on those two alone give me enough reason to believe either What gnostics claim is to controversial and un-godlike to be accepted as part of the bible. THere's also few other things that has been carefully taken out of the bible. Such as Women should killed in such manner etc if they commited adultery etc. The bible even have the complete set of how exactly the execution should be carried out. You don't want a kid reading that on a sunday morning in the white surburbia. The bible has been modified to be more acceptable.

A great example is the King James bible. So basically the writings of gnostic contradicts what the vatican acknowledge as part of the bible.

But ofcourse,

gos?pel (gspl)

Something, such as an idea or principle, accepted as unquestionably true:

Now

Ko?ran or Qur??an (k-rn, -r?n, k?-, k-)
n.
The sacred text of Islam, considered by Muslims to contain the revelations of God to Muhammad

So topdog tell me who exactly determines which gospel should be accepted?

Which Hadith and fatwa?

Also i remember that in Islam and in christianity it ask for total belief. I might be considered an apostate in the standards of the Iranian Ayotullahs and be condemned to death! But then thats way to Hardcore. So most Muslims can't accept that and they have became less-Muslim.

In Islam like Christianity there's 10 things one must not do!

one of them is, Do not have sex before marriage. If you do you should be stoned to death (women) and for the Men be whipped until you bleed to death.

I wonder how many Muslims is going to volunteer. Not a lot i can tell you that :D

So top dog the only misconception about Isam is, Muslims themself like Christians as well. Are unable to acknowledge that They are so many different Sects in Religion.

Sometimes i wonder who could actually claim to be a true Muslim. Matter of perspective i guess.

[FiAnS]

I agree with Thirdshifter. How can we be so sure which sects of Christian or Islam are true? We can't...

[topdog]

Who exactly determines which gospel should be accepted?

I am Catholic, so of course it's determined by the Vatican! While I understand what you are trying to say (in fact I agree with you mostly), how do you expect me to shuddup when you make false claims like Jesus had sex with a prostitute according to the Bible?

Whether or not Gnostic texts were once accepted 2000 years ago/the Bible was altered by the early Church does not negate the fact that Gnostic text is not part of the Bible, now, in this discussion, and has been so for who knows how long. So until the Vatican (and leaders of other Christian denominations) says that what I have been reading is bullshit and we should all revert to reading Gnostic texts, stop using it as an example of rifts within Christianity okay? I repeat, Gnostic text != Bible.

About the Bible being modified to be made more acceptable, I don't think I'm qualified to enter into a discussion on that. Using common sense, since the books that make up the Bible were all written by human hands thousands of years ago, of course politics/social norms had some influence on what we are reading now 2000 years later. However that's another question for another place.

Okay, so can we all agree that we do not know enough about our own respective religions from A to Z to be giving any authoritative views about them, much less other religions? Can we also stop quoting from other religious books? Don't act like you know more than you do.

[topdog]

To stress another point, I understand the point Thirdshifter was trying to make about different sects in religions. Of course there are different sects in Christianity -- who is denying that???, but we read more or less the same Bible, and as I said yesterday, subscribe to the belief of the triune nature of God, i.e. Father, Son (Jesus), Holy Spirit.

You keep bringing up Gnosticism, but Gnosticism is not a Christian denomination. (What is was 2000 years ago I don't know, but we are talking about the present, so please stick to it.) Some Gnostics do/did not even believe that Jesus is God. So it is not a "Christian sect" in the sense that Catholics and Protestants are Christian sects.

Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox Christians disagree on certain doctrines/interpretations mostly relating to the sacraments, the status of Mother Mary (Maryam), but they agree on the divinity of Jesus, and share more or less the same bible. Gnosticism is too different to be considered a Christian sect in the same vein as Catholicsm/Protestantism. In fact I doubt that Gnostics would want to be associated with Christians you see today (speculation on my part).

See now why I can't accept your quoting Gnostic texts to describe Christianity? People who don't know better might read your "Gospel of Philip" quote and think, oh, the Bible says Jesus had a wife. Ask your Christian friends about the "Gospel of Philip" and see how they respond.

Okay, I have a general question about Islam. How many different sects are there? What are the main differences between them?

[Thirdshifter]

Muslim sects? To be honest i don't know exactly how many there is. But the two most popular is Sunni and Shia.

Shia is ofcourse banned in Malaysia. Al-arqam another sect is also banned in Malaysia (so much for freedom of religion)

I think there's almost one odd Muslim sect in each country. In USA we have nation of Islam.

[quote]how do you expect me to shuddup when you make false claims like Jesus had sex with a prostitute according to the Bible? [quote]

Alright maybe i miss used the word bible. These term could be really confusing at times. So in your definition what is a bible? since my reference to the dictionary above is ignored.

Maybe i'm ignorant or maybe i'm being too realistic? Religion had always successfully indoctrinate its follower to beleive only one side of the story. Anything else is garbage.

The same arguement could be used to any religion including Islam.

The Problem is, people want to validate their own religion by condemning others.

And the association of Islam and terrorism is a clear example of this.

A quote from a the very Famous Rev. Graham " Islam. A wicked & evil religion" made on prime time clearly demonstrate this.

I have few catholic frineds who doesn't want to be associated with christian as well. They rather be called catholics. So whats your point?

[__earth]

nation of islam, al-aqram are not sects.

nation of islam is more of a black movement rather than an islam movement.

in islam, there are 2 branches. sunni and shia.

sunni is futher divided into 4 but basically, all 4 are the same. these 4 however, they aren't sects. there are more like how protestant is further divided into methodist, anglican etc.

analogously, sunni and shia (or shiite) are like catholic and protestant.

shia is actually considered as divergence by the sunni but for the sake of unity, its considered as part of Islam.

editted for some grammEr

[qedx]

one of them is, Do not have sex before marriage. If you do you should be stoned to death (women) and for the Men be whipped until you bleed to death.
Wrong. Whipping is for unmarried couples. If married, the married one gets stoned to death, the unmarried ones only gets whipped. If whipped it is done by an executioner-type person. Stoning is for the general public and it is compulsory for anyone who passes to stone.

Okay, I have a general question about Islam. How many different sects are there? What are the main differences between them?
Lets see, the two main sects are Shi'ah and Sunnah. And there are 4 schools of though in the Sunnah part. And these schools of thought are not mutually exclusive. One may follow any of the rationalizations of any school or even your own rationalization as long as you can support it with quotes from the Quran and Hadith.
http://www.islamicity.com/qa/action.lasso.asp?-db=services&-lay=Ask&-op=eq&number=1895&-format=detailpop.shtml&-find

And as for the Shi'ah. Well... in Malaysia, I think Shi'ah is considered an ajaran sesat due to over emphasis on the descendants of the Prophet is what I remember my teachers said. I'm not too sure. A source on Shi'ah is here http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/

Al-Arqam was a cult and Nation of Islam preaches the supremacy of the negroid peoples.... ajaran sesat.

[topdog]

[quote]how do you expect me to shuddup when you make false claims like Jesus had sex with a prostitute according to the Bible? [quote]

Alright maybe i miss used the word bible. These term could be really confusing at times. So in your definition what is a bible? since my reference to the dictionary above is ignored.

My god I'll say it one last time. The Bible does not say that Jesus had sex with a prostitute. Please go ask any professional theologian/historian if that is written in the Bible.

Why do you keep questioning what Christians choose to believe/not to believe in? It's my own goddamn business just as what you choose to believe is yours. Since you want to harp on the validity of the Bible what if I ask you how sure are you that Nabi Muhammad was not a conman? After all he was illiterate and memorized Allah's message sent down by angel Gabriel right? How can you be sure that an illiterate man's memory could not have been faulty?

The Problem is, people want to validate their own religion by condemning others.

So what are you saying, you also want to be part of the problem?


A quote from a the very Famous Rev. Graham " Islam. A wicked & evil religion" made on prime time clearly demonstrate this.

I have few catholic frineds who doesn't want to be associated with christian as well. They rather be called catholics. So whats your point?

Your example of Billy Graham (a fanatic) is one reason why some Catholics don't want to be associated with some Christian denominations, especially of the overly-evangelical kind. But as I said, let Christians argue among themselves.

What's my point? I don't want to repeat myself over and over again. Why can't you just admit that you messed up on that dubious "Gspel of Philip"citation?

[Thirdshifter]

nation of islam, al-aqram are not sects.

nation of islam is more of a black movement rather than an islam movement.

in islam, there's 2 branches. sunni and shia.

sunni is futher divided into 4 but basically, all 4 are the same. these 4, i dont really think they are sects. there are more like how protestant is further divided into methodist, anglican etc.

analogously, sunni and shia (or shiite) are like catholic and protestant.

shia is actually a divergence by the sunni but for the sake of unity, its considered as part of Islam.

editted for some grammEr

Thanks earth. As you can see topdog. A failure to acknowledge different sects of the religion.

If Nation of ISlam is considered a black movement, why does its leader Mr fara Khan claims to be the black prophet?

What about al arqam earth? A Malay movement?

[__earth]

there's a difference between a cult and a sect.

[__earth]

on nation of islam, you might to read this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_of_Islam

i think you misunderstood the difference between cult and sect. and its not a failure to acknowledge different sects.

[topdog]

Thirdshifter, I think I have discovered the root of this really all too time-consuming debate we are having.

The definition of a religious sect.

For example, is Al Arqam a religious sect in the sense that Sunni/Shia are religious sects? Or is it a cult? You seem to consider Al Arqam/Nation of Islam as being on the same level as Sunni/Shia. Is this really the case?

[Thirdshifter]

[
Your example of Billy Graham (a fanatic) is one reason why some Catholics don't want to be associated with some Christian denominations, especially of the overly-evangelical kind. But as I said, let Christians argue among themselves.



Pretty much describe how Most muslim feels about the Islam Fundamentalist as well.

Muhammad also is a good thing to talk about. but we all know where it would go.


For example, is Al Arqam a religious sect in the sense that Sunni/Shia are religious sects? Or is it a cult? You seem to consider Al Arqam/Nation of Islam as being on the same level as Sunni/Shia. Is this really the case?

In my opinion, Yes.



As this discussion had derailed severly of topic and is slowly turning into naming other religion as ajaran sesat/cult i'm going to rephrase what the original Poster said;

http://www.hissyfit.com/hissyfits/2001_10_02.shtml


7. Culture is not religion. So much of the oppression and misogyny (female illiteracy, "honour" killing, female genital mutilation, forced marriages, physical abuse, etc.) we hear about in quasi- and pseudo-Islamic countries such as Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Iran stems from patriarchal cultural customs and baggage and not from Islam, although it's always "justified" sixty ways to Sunday with supposed religious dictates and self-serving interpretations of scripture.

If any of these countries actually thoroughly implemented Islam as intended and honoured the spirit as well as the letter of the "law," women, for example, would not only have far more rights and freedoms than they currently do in any of these countries, but the behaviour of men and the actions of governments would have to change so radically that you would probably not recognize these countries at all. Islamic concepts and requirements are that different from how these countries currently operate.




9. Jihad does not mean "holy war." This has to be one of the most damaging, most persistent myths about Islam. The Western media have helped perpetuate this, but there are plenty of benighted Muslims who insist on misapprehending and incorrectly using this term. Jihad, (which comes from the Arabic root word jahada, meaning "to toil, to exert oneself, to strive for a better way of life") is correctly translated as "struggle" or "endeavour," and can easily apply to such things as a student working to earn a medical degree or a group of people raising money to build a mosque. It can apply to the struggle to control one's temper, or to learn to read and write. Part of my husband's jihad as a Muslim is the effort it takes for him to get up in time to offer the first prayers of the day, which occur before dawn. It encompasses the idea of struggling or fighting for good or against evil, but that does not necessarily mean with violence, and it certainly does not mean that any crackpot claiming to be Muslim and waving a Qur'an around can decide who is good and who is evil, and start killing people.



hope this will change the direction of this topic.

[__earth]

For example, is Al Arqam a religious sect in the sense that Sunni/Shia are religious sects? Or is it a cult? You seem to consider Al Arqam/Nation of Islam as being on the same level as Sunni/Shia. Is this really the case?

In my opinion, Yes.

that is a terrible misunderstanding. experts within the islamic community and outside of the islamic community have agreed that NOI is not a sect of Islam.

in parallel, consider falun gong and buddhism.
falun gong derives itself from buddhism but falun gong is not a sect of buddhism.

it's not a matter of calling what's right and what's wrong. it's a matter of recognizing whether one falls under one class or not.

[qedx]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_of_Islam[/url]] * God's incarnation
o NOI: Teaches that God became physically incarnate in the form of a black preacher in 1930s Chicago.
o Islam: Teaches that it is heretical to believe that God would manifest Himself as a human.

* Black supremacy
o NOI: Teaches that Caucasians were created by an ancient evil scientist called Yakub. Only black people are considered human by the Nation of Islam. Non-blacks are literally held to be non-human demons.
o Islam: Teaches that all races are created equal in the eyes of God. Yakub (Jacob) is considered a Prophet of Allah in Islam.

* Prophets
o NOI: Rejects the Muslim belief that Muhammad was the last prophet. Instead it teaches that Elijah Muhammad was a prophet of Allah, and that Louis Farrakhan is yet another messenger, sent to deliver a last call to humanity.
o Islam: Holds that Muhammad was the very last of all prophets, and that no more prophets would ever arise.

The differences between Islam and the techings of Nation of Islam is pretty drastic in key things. IMO it qualifies as a cult using Islam as its base.

[topdog]

Okay Third, I have been doing some reading on Gnosticism and here's a link to a description of it on the Catholic Encyclopedia, a source that I trust. Now don't go into your "who determines the truth?" mode because as I have demonstrated, I could just as easily ask questions about Islam that will make Muslims angry and end up proving nothing, like you always say.

Link: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06592a.htm

Gnosticism is not regarded as a part of Christianity. Ask any expert, Christian or otherwise. Not everything is relative. Just as qedx has shown that NOI is not a sect of Islam.

[Thirdshifter]

alrighty then Topdog, After i read the catholic version of gnostic i would only be fair if you read this http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2671/ECGnTpl.html

, I don't think its fair to call any religion a cult. nation of Islam might be different from the Mainstream Sunni Islam but they still believe in the same 5 pillar of Islam. The recite the Quran and Perform the Hajj.

Despite of their belief of Black supremacy, Nation of Islam is pretty much the same.

Just like how the Shiites believe the Companions of Muhammad are liars and corrupt.

[qedx]

Despite of their belief of Black supremacy, Nation of Islam is pretty much the same.
Thats how all the good cults operate. They take an established religion and then add and change a few things around. Claiming that God manifested Himself as a man and that you are a prophet of God is pretty much misguided. :/

http://www.noi.org/history_of_noi.htm[/url]]IN 1931, THE MASTER WAS preaching this Great Truth of salvation when He met a man named Elijah Poole in Detroit, Michigan
http://www.noi.org/history_of_noi.htm[/url]]The Honorable Elijah Muhammad identified the Master as being the answer to the one that the world had been expecting for the past 2,000 years under the names Messiah, the second coming of Jesus, the Christ, Jehovah, God, and the Son of Man.
Seems to be some pretty messed up theology there :/

Just like how the Shiites believe the Companions of Muhammad are liars and corrupt.
Can you find me a quote on this please? A lot of our information on the Shi'ah comes from, shall we say biased sources.

[Thirdshifter]

Just like how the Shiites believe the Companions of Muhammad are liars and corrupt.
Can you find me a quote on this please? A lot of our information on the Shi'ah comes from, shall we say biased sources.

Actually i have no clue where to find a quote that would be considered unbias on the net.

However, a very close friend which i never knew was a shiite until she told me that, abu hurairah is a pathological liar. Aishah was the biggest problem and some other good stuff :D

Maybe if you do a search on the net you could find similar bashing coming from shiites.

[__earth]

I don't think its fair to call any religion a cult. nation of Islam might be different from the Mainstream Sunni Islam but they still believe in the same 5 pillar of Islam. The recite the Quran and Perform the Hajj.

nation of islam is not a religion nor it's a sect.

you don't go out saying my religion is nation of islam, or my sect is nation of islam. its just a movement with some addendum belief with Islam as its based.

[Thirdshifter]

So what about people who believe that Elijah is a messenger of god is? I'm pretty sure if you ask them which church, Mosque they belong to they won't answer Shia or sunni. It would be nation of Islam.

If nation of Islam, as you put it "just a movement with some addendum belief with Islam as its base"

Then what about Sunnis? Hadith could be thrown out as some addendum belief too.

Shiites believe in 12 Imam that Most Sunnis couldn't even name. Addendum?

Maybe when the shia "movement" first started they were also considered a "cult". Now that they represent about 30-35% of the total Muslim Population (including those who are in the NOA) Sunnis are slowly accepting their rights to exist and claims to be as Islam as the sunnis.

[__earth]

So what about people who believe that Elijah is a messenger of god is? I'm pretty sure if you ask them which church, Mosque they belong to they won't answer Shia or sunni. It would be nation of Islam.

If nation of Islam is in your own word is "just a movement with some addendum belief with Islam as its base"

Then what about Sunnis? Hadith could be thrown out as some addendum belief too.

Shiites believe in 12 Imam that Most Sunnis couldn't even name.

Maybe when the shia "movement" first started they were also considered a "cult". Now that they represent about 30-35% of the total Muslim Population (including those who are in the NOA) Sunnis are slowly accepting their rights to exist and claims to be as Islam as the sunnis.

the hadith is not an addendum. its the base. remember the 6 elements of islamic belief?

btw, do you call PAS a sect?

[Thirdshifter]

the hadith is not an addendum. its the base. remember the 6 elements of islamic belief?

Only for Sunni (ahli sunnah)

btw, do you call PAS a sect

Do you call them a cult? or a movement?

PAS is a Sunni Political Group who advocates the Law of Islam according to Sunnis.

[__earth]

yup, Pas is a political movement. almost suspect you would call them a sect.

btw, the 6 elements, are you sure its just sunni? according to my knowledge, even shiite agrees to this basic tenet - the few reasons why shiite is still considered as muslim.

but if you're truly saying what you are saying, than according to you, shiite doesnt believe in god, angels, the books, prophets, end day and god's will. is that true?

[Thirdshifter]

yup, Pas is a political movement. almost suspect you would call them a sect.

btw, the 6 elements, are you sure its just sunni? according to my knowledge, even shiite agrees to this basic tenet - the few reasons why shiite is still considered as muslim.

but if you're truly saying what you are saying, than according to you, shiite doesnt believe in god, angels, the books, prophets, end day and god's will. is that true?

Shis's most distinctive difference between sunni is the 12 imams. These Imams are hold higher then any hadith Sunnis believe. Ali, the son in law of Muhammad, Husin the grandchild of Muhammad is their early leaders. Sunni considere these Imam to be false. Ajaran sesat to Jabatan agama islam Malaysia

In Sunni, we are learnt more about the companions and the Khalifah. Where as the Shia dubbed the khalifas and the companion to be wrong.

In sunni, the last word of Muhammad is, I leave you The Quran and my Sunnahs (tradition - which was later documented and is now known as the hadith).

In Shia, the last word of Muhammad is, i leave you the Quran and my family.

Just some basic stuff i learn from my Shiite friend when we were trying to compare both of them.

For the principle. I think they believe it as much as they believe in the pillars as well. I think Rukun Iman was sort of a guideline rather then a must believe. For an example.

Believe in Destiny. When there's many verses in the Quran that ask human to change the course of their own destiny.

If all Muslims was to beleive in destiny entirely there would've been no war during Muhammads era. We would just be seing bunch of guys saying.. its the will of Allah. Anyway this is just my opinion so don't quote me on this. [/i]

[qedx]

Believe in Destiny. When there's many verses in the Quran that ask human to change the course of their own destiny.
LOL. You're treading on dangerous ground my friend. I've been asking my school teachers and various other people about that for a long time and I have never come across a satisfying answer. The best i could gather is that Destiny and Fate according to the Islam is not really set in stone, at least the little details are not. Some things will happen sooner or later but some things you can change. But the thing is you can't really know whether what happened happened because Destiny has been changed or not, so why bother to think about it? Just do your best to be your best.

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/ I've been reading up a bit the Shiite Encyclopaedia there and it seems to agree with what Thirdshifter said, alhough I did not really check out the Hadiths and quotes they referred to because I don't have any Hadith book with me, but the Quran verses seem to check out. The thing about Islam is that this division of Shiites and Sunnis is really moot. Any Muslim can follow any rationalizations of any "Imams" as long as there are enough support from the Quran and Hadith. There is no such thing as "conversion between sects".

EDIT: Moreover, I don't really remember much about the times of the Khalifas, especially, Uthman and Ali. All I'm kind of certain about it was that it was not a particularly peaceful time in Madina. :/ My school teachers and many books didn't really focus on the politics of those times *sigh*

On NOI: Remember during the time of Abu Bakr as Khalifa? There were quite a few men who claimed to be a prophet of God. They did not claim to be of another religion, just that they were prophets of Islam. And Abu Bakr waged war on them. But then, they did threaten national security back then. Still... the Quran states that Muhammad is "the Seal of the Prophets" (al Ahzab: 40). Prophethood has been sealed, no more new prophets. I don't say that we should wage war on them, just know that it is NOT Islam that they are teaching.

[da-hype]

On NOI: Remember during the time of Abu Bakr as Khalifa? There were quite a few men who claimed to be a prophet of God. They did not claim to be of another religion, just that they were prophets of Islam. And Abu Bakr waged war on them. But then, they did threaten national security back then. Still... the Quran states that Muhammad is "the Seal of the Prophets" (al Ahzab: 40). Prophethood has been sealed, no more new prophets. I don't say that we should wage war on them, just know that it is NOT Islam that they are teaching.


1st of all "back in the day" going to war cause of religion i think was a normal thing. right now yes it might be wrong to go to war cause someone claims he's a prophet. but keep in mind in some arab coutries.. if you claim you're a prophet you will be killed. I think i malaysia you go to jail for it (or ISA)

[sanghanuman]

Hmm, I suggest we use this forum as a channel to clear any misunderstanding, or just any issue on Islam. And maybe somebody could start one for each other religion, preferably by somebody who really knows about the religion that we're gonna talk about. I reckon that it would be interesting.

[Thirdshifter]

[quote=Thirdshifter] Any Muslim can follow any rationalizations of any "Imams" as long as there are enough support from the Quran and Hadith. There is no such thing as "conversion between sects".
.

True thats there's no conversion needed as to validate things such as marriage etc. The shiites beleive that all of the 12 Imams are "Maksum' (with no sin) As to in the Quran clearly (i'm not a quran scholar, so to play safe "widely believed to had been written") stated that only prophets are. So whats your say on that?
Shiite regards the Imam not only higher then the hadith, but almost at the same level of the prophet Muhammad himself.

Untill today, Shia is still considered "ajaran sesat" because of their anti-hadith stand

here's a complete list issued by the Malaysian goverment that falls into the same category. http://www.islam.gov.my/ppi/listsesat.html

[da-hype]

I think the Bible is not just a holy text but an excellent text as well. Given that it has survived 2000 years of reprinting and reprinting and translations and still be accurate, that's really something to be in awe of.


prove to me that the bible has not been changed and has been translated properly.

http://www.gospelcenterchurch.org/changes.html

or just search google on "doctrinal changes in the Bible"


BTW here's a url to be in awe of

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/scislam.html

[abdullah]

1) why prophet Muhammad could have 9 wives?sure,war,lack of men could be the factors....and of coz he's a prophet,but i still couldn't digest when i heard he married one of the caliph's daughter who was barely 10 (though he stayed with her when she was 12)..how come a man of 50 something married a young,bare lady?please help me to understand this..


This link explains it rather well:

http://www.islaminfo.com/articleview.asp?level=48&catID=10

An excerpt follows:

This was an age that looked upon plural marriages with favor and in a society that in pre-biblical and post-biblical days considered polygamy an essential feature of social existence. David had six wives and numerous concubines (2 Samuel 5:13; 1 Chronicles 3:1-9, 14:3) and Solomon was said to have had as many as 700 wives and 300 concubines (1 Kings 11:3). Solomon?s son Rehoboam had 18 wives and 60 concubines (2 Chronicles 11:21). The New Testament contains no specific injunction against plural marriages. It was commonplace for the nobility among the Christians and Jews to contract plural marriages. Luther spoke of it with toleration (Caesar E. Farah, Islam: Beliefs and Observances, 4th edition, Barron?s, U.S. 1987, p. 69).

Caesar Farah then concluded that Muhammad?s plural marriages were due "partly to political reasons and partly to his concern for the wives of his companions who had fallen in battle defending the nascent Islamic community" (p. 69).

When people hear that the prophet had many wives they conclude without much thought that the prophet was a sensuous man. However, a quick historical review of his marriages, proves otherwise.

Also, note that Shakespeare's Juliet was forcibly married off when "she hath not seen the change of fourteen summers" to Count Paris, quite possibly an unctuous tycoon well-advanced in age.

It is a clear principle in Islam that no woman is married off against her wishes.

[SpRInG]

hmm.. before that, doesn't this post seem to be a religious thread? how come it is not stopped?

[abdullah]

2) sure,islam is a universal religion and that pseudo-islam countries still failed to draw a line between islam and their own cultures...but i didn't get the point when the arabs such as the syeds and syarifahs are looked up by the muslim,based solely on their lineages to prophet muhammad.

and bear also in mind,that in your prayers,the muslims chanted for the well-being of prophet muhammad's families.

and muslims look up at the arab muslims and brag about that when they have the blood of the arabs.i've seen so many malays who bragged about their arabs' blood.

how equal islam then?how fair islam could be then when those having the blood of prophet muhammad is looked up by the fellow muslims?

Getting puffed up over blood lineages was precisely one of the jahilliyah behaviors that Islam sought to eradicate.

Just having arab blood doesn't count for much; consider the ayah in
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.097,
the Yusuf Ali translation of which is:
The Arabs of the desert are the worst in Unbelief and hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger: But Allah is All-knowing, All-Wise.

The desert Arabs referred to here are the nomadic Bedouins, the orang asli of the Arabs, if you will.

Also note the second half of the following (well-known) ayah:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/047.qmt.html#047.038,
the Yusuf Ali translation of which is:
If ye turn back (from the Path), He will substitute in your stead another people; then they would not be like you!

Just being born into a certain ethnicity doesn't mean a thing, since we're all replaceable if we don't shape up and bend to God's Will.

In fact, one of the most beautiful passages in the Qur'an states explicitly what constitutes real honor:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/049.qmt.html#049.013
the Yusuf Ali translation of which is:
Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you.

[SpRInG]

hmm... since i'm in this forum now, i haf a few question for muslims:

The Qur'an says "To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward" (Surah 5:9).

is that right?
1)If it is so, are you doing sufficient good works for the Day of Judgement?
2) Are you doing your all or are you relaxing in your dedication to Allah?

[deaf-knee]

hmm.. before that, doesn't this post seem to be a religious thread? how come it is not stopped?

Ahh?

[topdog]

hmm.. before that, doesn't this post seem to be a religious thread? how come it is not stopped?

Ahh?
i think spring said that because a few weeks ago, requests for a Buddhism SIG was rejected on the grounds that religious/ethnic groups are banned. i don't know what's the policy now - religious SIGs not ok, religious threads ok? thirdshifter?

[Thirdshifter]

This thread is not a religious thread. The topic is about the misconception of Islam. Islam, as we all know is the only religion that could be affiliated with terrorism and this thread could help us all understand why.

Also threads discussing religion, ethnic and politics are allowed but forming a SIG is a different thing altogether. I think i did however mentioned that discussion about anything is permited but forming a Special interest group is a bad idea.

We all could agree that a thread about budhism or christianity is different then forming a board specifically for a religion.

If someone found it nessecary to talk about buddhism please do so. I think passion of the christ already covered Christianity.

[SpRInG]

okay okay, now i get the what you mean.. okay okay, thanks

okay, referring back to the question, any muslims would like to answer my two of the questions above?

[CyberJaya]

I'm sort of relaxing at the moment.

[aquila]

excuse me? oh the irony.. if this thread is supposed to clear up misconceptions abt islam, do you have to do that at christianity's expense....

someone said prove to me the bible hasnt changed... lol! if that's not some religious fundamentalist / bigot/ intolerant person... explain to me why anyone in his/her right mind would say that in a public forum where he/she knows that there are christians around?

thank you.. pls don't set double standards...

[sanghanuman]

hmm... since i'm in this forum now, i haf a few question for muslims:

The Qur'an says "To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward" (Surah 5:9).

is that right?
1)If it is so, are you doing sufficient good works for the Day of Judgement?
2) Are you doing your all or are you relaxing in your dedication to Allah?

I will try to address these questions with my limited knowledge:

Question number 1 is a good one. The answer is, since we can't remember how many deeds we have done, it is very hard to to say if they are sufficient or not. Islam is a way of life. So, for a good Muslim, from the moment that he wakes up till he sleeps again, every single aspects of his life, he should remember God's teaching. For example, thanking God for giving a new day, a good meal, asking for forgiveness, and one important thing that people always forget is to maintain good relationship with fellow human beings. Even studying for exams will be rewarded. If he does that, than every minute is counted as a deed. Sufficient or not, only God knows.

Question number 2 is actually one of the challenges of being a Muslim. The nature of human is that we forget all the time. The level of "religiousness" of any individuals also fluctuates from one time to another. Usually, when times are hard, people do more good things and ask for good things a lot too. That is why in Islam, if Muslims remember God more during the good times, it is even better. Well, for a person who remembers that death can come at anytime, procrastination is never in his dictionary of life. Dedication should start now. But of course, not all Muslims can achieve such stage. So a lot of times, you can see that this Muslim and that Muslim not being fully dedicated as he should be, but that really depends on personal interpretation of their own commitment towards the religion. My personal opinion is that it is best not to judge anybody because all we(Muslims) have is a Holy Book and the Prophet's sayings. And to compare the knowledge of the Creator and ours is like an ocean to a drop of water. We have little knowledge to claim that Mr. So and So is not being a good Muslim. For he could have done one good thing that can totally change his fate on the Day of Judgement.

[oxherd]

nation of islam, al-aqram are not sects.

in islam, there are 2 branches. sunni and shia.

sunni is futher divided into 4 but basically, all 4 are the same. these 4 however, they aren't sects. there are more like how protestant is further divided into methodist, anglican etc.

analogously, sunni and shia (or shiite) are like catholic and protestant.



As an addendum, there is a major division within Shiite known as Ismailis, who believe in 7 Imams rather than 12 and is more prevalent outside of Iran. Alawis and Druze are another 2 more branches that emerge from Ismailis, but are too divergent from mainstream Islamic beliefs to be considered Muslims.

Ok, I would like to bring up a popular theme that I keep hearing in the US press. Apparently, the fundamentalist branch of Islam that fuels the terrorist hatred is the Wahabbi sect, which is the prominent one in Saudi Arabia. Any comments on this ?

Also, I would like to know what the other Muslims think about the Sufi tradition (the mystical - tawasuff) tradition of Islam. I have read and have been enraptured by the poems of Jelalludin Rumi, the most famous poet in the Sufi tradition. Some elements of Sufism complements very well the Buddhist Zen tradition that I practice in.

[oxherd]

9. Jihad does not mean "holy war." This has to be one of the most damaging, most persistent myths about Islam. The Western media have helped perpetuate this, but there are plenty of benighted Muslims who insist on misapprehending and incorrectly using this term. Jihad, (which comes from the Arabic root word jahada, meaning "to toil, to exert oneself, to strive for a better way of life") is correctly translated as "struggle" or "endeavour," and can easily apply to such things as a student working to earn a medical degree or a group of people raising money to build a mosque. It can apply to the struggle to control one's temper, or to learn to read and write. Part of my husband's jihad as a Muslim is the effort it takes for him to get up in time to offer the first prayers of the day, which occur before dawn. It encompasses the idea of struggling or fighting for good or against evil, but that does not necessarily mean with violence, and it certainly does not mean that any crackpot claiming to be Muslim and waving a Qur'an around can decide who is good and who is evil, and start killing people.


I have read that historically, the most common understanding of jihad was in a military sense, particularly during the early expansion of the Islamic empire. Here's an article presenting this opinion:

http://www.meforum.org/article/357

Comments ?

[Thirdshifter]

http://www.meforum.org/article/357[/url]]WHAT DOES JIHAD MEAN?

Muslims today can mean many things by jihad-the jurists' warfare bounded by specific conditions, Ibn Taymiya's revolt against an impious ruler, the Sufi's moral self-improvement, or the modernist's notion of political and social reform. The disagreement among Muslims over the interpretation of jihad is genuine and deeply rooted in the diversity of Islamic thought. The unmistakable predominance of jihad as warfare in Shari'a writing does not mean that Muslims today must view jihad as the jurists did a millenium ago. Classical texts speak only to, not for, contemporary Muslims. A non-Muslim cannot assert that jihad always means violence or that all Muslims believe in jihad as warfare.

Conversely, the discord over the meaning of jihad permits deliberate deception, such as the CAIR statement cited above. A Muslim can honestly dismiss jihad as warfare, but he cannot deny the existence of this concept. As the editor of the "Diary of a Mujahid" writes, "some deny it, while others explain it away, yet others frown on it to hide their own weakness."

The term jihad should cause little confusion, for context almost always indicates what a speaker intends. The variant interpretations are so deeply embedded in Islamic intellectual traditions that the usage of jihad is unlikely to be ambiguous. An advocate of jihad as warfare indicates so through his goals


I think the author of that article already answered your question. Good find by the way.

In my opinion however, Jihad is a just an over used term. In western media Jihad means Muslims trying to kill infedels. The word itself is just used to describe the level of how radical the Militant is.

[SpRInG]

hmm... interesting...

The Qur'an says, "O ye who believe! Turn unto Allah in sincere repentance! It may be that your Lord will remit from you your evil deeds and bring you into Gardens underneath which rivers flow, on the day when Allah will not abase the Prophet and those who believe with him. Their light will run before them and on their right hands; they will say: Our Lord! Perfect our light for us, and forgive us! Lo! Thou art Able to do all things," (66:8-9). Please take note how it says if you are sincere you may receive forgiveness. Am i right here?

another question,

How do you knwo that you are sincere enough to be forgiven by Allah?

If you say that you know you are sincere enough in your repentance before Allah, how do you know you are not deceiving yourself?

Is your heart really good enough to muster enough sincerity before a pure, holy and righteous God?

If you say yes, I honestly and humbly ask you, "Are you being prideful?"

If you say you are not being prideful, then are you boasting in your sincerity?

[__earth]

Spring, to say the least:

to question 1:
only you (and God) know how sincere you are. nobody elses know. the key here, you need to be true to yourself.
You can't really ask for another person to know who is sincere or who's not.

question 2:
refer to question 1

question 3:
refer to question 1

questin 4:
refer to question 1

q5 & 6: I think its impossible to feel proud if your repentance is sincere. It's just the two are probably mutually exclusive feelings.

[oxherd]

If you say that you know you are sincere enough in your repentance before Allah, how do you know you are not deceiving yourself?


If you say that you know this world represents actual reality and is not a computer generated simulation created by sticking wires in your brain, how do you know you are not deceiving yourself ?

The Matrix has you, free your mind !

Sorry, I apologize :)

[CyberJaya]

Where are you from in England Oxherd?

[oxherd]

The thing that gets me is that in the desert all those years ago, can you imagine how smelly the left hand must have been for those who used to wash with their left hand. Their was no water and no towels etc.

Wierd isn't it ? Well, you know what gets me ? Only 300 years ago in China, parents used to tie up the feet of their young daughters so that it would never grow. The smell of the crushed feet was supposedly sexually attractive. And at the same time in India, people born into the wrong family would probably spend the rest of their lifes cleaning up shit, regardless of how intelligent or capable they were.

BTW, if there was no water in the desert, how did those people survive ?

[topdog]

Only 300 years ago n China, parents used to tie up the feet of their young daughters so that it would never grow. The smell of the crushed feet was supposedly sexually attractive.
ahh...the fragrance of bound feet....but wasn't it the size and shape of the feet that were sexually attractive?

[ElansarGelmir]

#Digress
I thought it's supposed to be the way they walk, which is very dainty and cute looking. And according to my friend (a girl), she said they claim that will make sex life for men more pleasureable coz those steps they made walking actually narrow their vaginas...
#Digress

[oxherd]

I think the author of that article already answered your question. Good find by the way.

In my opinion however, Jihad is a just an over used term. In western media Jihad means Muslims trying to kill infedels. The word itself is just used to describe the level of how radical the Militant is.

Thanks. I would agree with you on that. When the Muslim world is cornered by all those accusations of terrorism, the main Islamic scholars are forced on the defensive and thus only provide only one possible interpretation of the word jihad. In today's political climate, nuanced viewpoints are increasingly unpopular. Or as one of our great world leaders succinctly puts it: 'You're either with us, or against us' :))

This does raise an interesting question however. The so-called 'Islamic terrorists' in places like Chechnya may possibly have the right context to claim that jihad means armed struggle.

[tunsrilanang]

i just want to rectify things up from previous posts (malas nak quote).

one (or some) of you said that quran verses cannot be ALL taken literally, ada hidden meaning.
truth is, the quran verses and the sunnah MUST BE TAKEN LITERALLY. if the quran verse said sumthing like God's hands, we have to take it literally, and not saying that 'God's hands' imply mighty power the God has etc . however, we should not think that God's hands are similar to our human beings hands for ALLAH is never the same as His creatures (salah satu sifat Allah adalah "mukhalafatuhu lil hawadith' which means He is different from His slaves/creatures)

it is in the TAFSIR al-quran where many explanations and interpretation are being made. these interpretaion vary depending on the knowledge of the interpretor and the period of time the interpretor lives in .

and when it comes to religion issues, rights and the hukum hakam in islam, it is very wise to go back to square one- refer to the quran and hadith.
some fatwas may be outdated and cannot be used (like some smokers say that smoking is makruh, when in fact it is NOW considered haram because of the finding where bad effects from smoking surpasses the good effects, and Allah knows best) but some muslims still want to hold on to these outdated fatwas just because they really want to justify their actions as right. some fatwas too are made by corrupted ulama, hence they must be rejected.
it is imperative that the muslims refer to these two sources before following the fatwas (just to make sure that our ibadahs are not rejected, and we do not follow the wrong path).

and when it comes to the issue of explaining things to the non muslims, like why prophet muhammad had nine wives, etc, I THINK, the best way to understand the logic behind it is to have faith. by faith i mean we take things as it is and not questioning TOO MUCH on the logic behind what Lord has asked the muslims to do. and yeah, anyone (muslim and non-muslim brothers and sisters) who wants to understand islam have gotta understand the quran and sunnah too. we have gotta keep on learning.

[PJKru]

I have a question. How do you say the niyyah in arabic for any prayer? For example if you're going to prayer zuhr, what do you say before you say takbiratul ihram.

[kucingbiru]

I have a question. How do you say the niyyah in arabic for any prayer? For example if you're going to prayer zuhr, what do you say before you say allahu akbah.

ussolly fardhal zuhry arba'a rakaatin ada an lillah hi ta'ala. if i'm not mistaken heh heh. well, i believe that niyyah is what's in your heart. i believe that if in my heart i stand up to pray, i should have the intention clear in my heart just before i say the first Allahu Akbar. i believe that's sufficient.

[abdullah]

The Qur'an says "To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward" (Surah 5:9).

is that right?
1)If it is so, are you doing sufficient good works for the Day of Judgement?
2) Are you doing your all or are you relaxing in your dedication to Allah?

In the name of God the Benevolent the Merciful

1) Wasn't Jesus (whom God rests in peace) grateful to his God when he served Him and performed miracles by His leave?

And when the God of Noah (whom God rests in peace) saves a human being from the hellfire, isn't it really by the sheer Grace of God rather than by the dint of one's own deeds, however awesome they appear to be? Is this really in contradiction to the translation of God's statement you quoted?

2) The religion of God is a life-affirming religion.

It was reported that the Prophet (may God bless and rest in peace) once informed his companions that they will receive the reward of sadaqa (religious charity as hard proof of one's faith) for having sex with their wives. Abu Dharr, the originator of this report, asked "Will we really be rewarded for satisfying our physical desires?" He replied, "If you have haram intercourse, you will be committing a sin; similarly, if you have halal intercourse, you will be rewarded."

And a knowledgeable scholar once said that the best dedication to God is the right action at the right time and the right place.

One of the most frequently occuring reminders in the Qur'an is the dual obligations of regular establishment of a connection to God through prayer and regular purification through charity.

Let this first and foremost be a reminder to me.

[burningBUTTERFLIES]

okay, i'll prolly look like a real newbie/idiot abt this, because i am. been reading the whole thread straight, and now my head's swimming with info. well, here's just my two cents:

actually why are the old customs brought up(like girl marrying young or number of wives?)?I mean, it's all past and gone and not many practice those customs these days. some things in the bible/quran are meant for the old days, not the new! all, but the fanatics or extremists, has conformed to the needs of present day. there's this fwd mail i received once, with no offence to christians, you can read it here -
http://willowhippo.blog-city.com/read/726914.htm
i bet, the followers of religions of old don't practice what they used to centuries ago =P

abt the nymphs that the men will get after they pass away (if they had lead a good muslim life)? i read this in this book called "princess", that the men will get 70 (erm, around that number) virgins while the women will be surrounded by babies (no virgin men, for they have not sexual desires - correct me if i'm wrong).

imho, most religions teach good traits, it's only the extremists/fanatics that gets the most attention, therefore conclusions are made from there. condemn not any religion. except, maybe satanism. lol

btw,i'm half buddhist, half free-spirit, and erm... with a little pagan (love nature) =)

[da-hype]

abt the nymphs that the men will get after they pass away (if they had lead a good muslim life)? i read this in this book called "princess", that the men will get 70 (erm, around that number) virgins while the women will be surrounded by babies (no virgin men, for they have not sexual desires - correct me if i'm wrong).


i think i've said this b4 in this tread... whn you the Quran says.. if you die for your religion.. men gets 70 virgins and women get babies.. like you said... it's a figure of speach.
the Quran was written like a poem.

then the bible says an eye for an eye.. does it mean go pull people's eye out? NO. if i'm in malaysia and i see you father.. and i call him uncle... does it mean he's my uncle? no.

[Thirdshifter]

So tell me da hype, what does it really mean?

[da-hype]

ooops forgot to finish what i started.. lol..

well from what i've read... like i said it's a figure os speach. basicly means a man or women will get what ever they want or desires.

[abdullah]

whn you the Quran says.. if you die for your religion.. men gets 70 virgins and women get babies.. like you said... it's a figure of speach.

You might want to review the Qur'an, all six thousand odd verses of it, to see if you find your "70 virgins / babies" reference.

No English translation I know of, no matter how bad (and they are some atrocious ones out there), makes such an outrageous claim.

[Laguna]

firstly, u ppl are not theologians, ulamas or pastors...whatever u call em.
Secondly, this is RECOM....and the RE doesnt stand for REligion.
Thirdly, u ppl are actually trying to start some sort of neverending debate.

I'm a Christian. Out of interest, i've studied Jawi and read some translated al-Quran, Bible, Buddhist holy book...those kinda stuff. It is always my belief that these topics are sensitive. So plz just keep this kinda discussions out, okay? Thanx.

Just as long as nobody here are involved in those twisted cults or 'ajaran sesat', you're still go on fine on the right track.

Btw, if anyone in this world DARE to claim that s/he REALLY UNDERSTAND EVERY BIT OF those words or sayings in the holy books (Quran, Bible....), i would gladly buy lots of jossticks and 'sembah' him/her. Keep in mind that we are all humans. This religion stuff is BEYOND our comprehension. Just keep cool bout it and continue to be faithful in our own faiths. Thanx!!!

[__earth]

firstly, u ppl are not theologians, ulamas or pastors...whatever u call em.

First, in Islam at least, it doesnt take an ulama to know the religion. It also does not take a pastor/monk/etc to study christianity/buddhism/etc or have opinion on it.

All we need is knowledge on a issue.

Secondly, this is RECOM....and the RE doesnt stand for REligion.

I believe, as an anchor, ReCom also stands for free speech. Anything is discussable regardless of any conservative opposition.

Thirdly, u ppl are actually trying to start some sort of neverending debate.

That is your opinion, certainly not of those that are involved in this thread.

I'm a Christian. Out of interest, i've studied Jawi and read some translated al-Quran, Bible, Buddhist holy book...those kinda stuff. It is always my belief that these topics are sensitive. So plz just keep this kinda discussions out, okay? Thanx.

Again, you think it is sensitive but again, that is your opinion. I believe most ppl in recom are open minded and some are even liberal.

Btw, if anyone in this world DARE to claim that s/he REALLY UNDERSTAND EVERY BIT OF those words or sayings in the holy books (Quran, Bible....), i would gladly buy lots of jossticks and 'sembah' him/her. Keep in mind that we are all humans.

nobody asserts that. Plus, religion is not beyond comprehension. If we dont understand it, why should we embrace it?

If it were incomprehensible, then we all should be an atheist. To believe in something that you dont understand is ignorance to say the least.

It is our job to understand religion. Else, everybody could believe in anything without question (though there are such people unfortunately).

This religion stuff is BEYOND our comprehension. Just keep cool bout it and continue to be faithful in our own faiths. Thanx!!!

one last comment. We need not to pledge blind loyalty. Question our faith until we are satisfied.

[da-hype]

whn you the Quran says.. if you die for your religion.. men gets 70 virgins and women get babies.. like you said... it's a figure of speach.

You might want to review the Qur'an, all six thousand odd verses of it, to see if you find your "70 virgins / babies" reference.

No English translation I know of, no matter how bad (and they are some atrocious ones out there), makes such an outrageous claim.

abdullah , i'm not stupid...maybe you should rread the threads b4 mine. i was quoteing what burningBUTTERFLIES
said... i know it does not say 70 virgins bla bla bla...

i't was 3 am when i wrote that.. and i was trying to explain what it meant.. not what has written in the Quran.

[abdullah]

Btw, if anyone in this world DARE to claim that s/he REALLY UNDERSTAND EVERY BIT OF those words or sayings in the holy books (Quran, Bible....), i would gladly buy lots of jossticks and 'sembah' him/her. Keep in mind that we are all humans. This religion stuff is BEYOND our comprehension. Just keep cool bout it and continue to be faithful in our own faiths. Thanx!!!

In the name of God the Benevolent the Merciful

What you wrote is really interesting because you've stated many truths about Islam right out of the Book.

Only God knows every bit of His Revelations, and yes, we gratefully 'sembah' Him/Her for that.

(I use the masculine pronoun for God, just as in the original Arabic, but as He Himself taught us, God is beyond gender as He created both sexes.)

The fact that the totality eludes us doesn't lift the responsibility of following the Truth, whatever little of it God gave us. He does not place a burden on us greater than we can bear, but truly, it is God's choice whether you continue to be faithful.

That's why the core of the Islamic prayer is so beautiful: it starts by expressing a deep gratitude to God for granting so much goodness and then transitions onto a request for further guidance.

Have you prayed yet?

[dinna_g]

why in islam,a woman cannot be a judge in a syaria court?why biological reasons like women are more emotional is expatiated as the reason when in India for an example,a woman has ruled the world's biggest democracy nation?

why muslim men tend too sometimes forced woman to wear hijab,cover themselves to the utmost but the men can walk in a shopping mall with a medium pant,showing their knees?

does islam teach them that?or does that being westernized and yet islamnized?

i'm sorry if i sound harsh,why islam fails to treat women equally?why the double standard?

i respect hijab.what i didn't understand why force women to wear that when i surmise,islam refrain force being applied to its teaching.

i know your post is kind of out-dated but i couldn't help but notice that most response of this part of the entry is incomplete (at least to me).

in islam, men and women are not literally equal but are complements. for instance, in a family, husband is the head of the family and wife takes care of the household (i.e. jaga anak & masak). it is highly unfair to say that islam fails to treat women equally. islam do treat women equally but in a different way.

if you read about the history of the arab world (pre-muhammad s.a.w. life), women are treated as slaves. For instance, if a woman gave birth to a girl, she would be buried alive. one of the challenge that nabi muhammad s.a.w. faced was to eliminate these ridiculous customs.

in islam, you need to give women as much respect as you give to men. however, the roles of men and women in the society/family/country are different. men are meant to be leaders (hence, women are not allowed to lead prayers) and you have to respect your mom more than your dad, but that does not make one gender superior than the other. the bottom line is men and women are complements!

regarding wearing hijjab... there's a reason behind it and it is mentioned in the Qur'an. i need to spend some time to look it up, i'll post it if i do so. as a female that wears hijjab, i don't see any difficulties of doing so.. when there's a will, there's a way. and islam is perfect, no questions about it.