Opinions on special rights

[mpalanieppan]

I read two letters at malaysiakini.com. One letter is apparently from a malay - it contains his opinions regarding special rights and what the non-malays owe the malays.

Here is the link:

http://www.malaysiakini.com/letters/200403240036531.php

The second is a response by a non-malay about the first guy's opinions. I can safely say that what is contained in this letter is generally the opinion/sentiments of most non-malay Malaysians regarding the issue of special rights.

The link:

http://www.malaysiakini.com/letters/200403250036543.php

My question is, does the first letter reflect somewhat the current sentiments among the malays? I realize that this is, after all, is a letter from one person - not any organization or group of people, and so cannot be used a measurement of sentiments of the whole community. But, how far does this letter reflect the current opinion of the Malay community, at least that portion that are bound to be professionals in the future (members of the Recom of course)?


And generally what is the stand of young generation of Malaysians on this issue of special rights?

Please keep the discussion as dispassionate as possible. All I intend is to gauge the opinions of young Malaysians like us on this issue of special rights.

Hope all of us could gain a better understanding.

[Thirdshifter]

What the writer of the first letter wrote is amazingly superbly right on.

He wrote what the majorities of Malays think. I suggest you go to some of the poor areas of malaysia and ask them about it. you'd be surprise on how accurate this is. Malay would never give their special rights away. Atleast in another 50 years.

there's a huge difference between an Urban Malay then a Kampung, petani, nelayan Malay.

The majorities of malays live in the Kampungs.

Ironically, the kampung Malays are not the ones benefiting the most from the special rights given by the government. It is the well-connected, relatively rich, urban (aka elite) Malays that benefit the most by allowing them access to government contracts, scholarships, etc.
In addition, I cannot help but to notice that these richer, elite Malays have fairer skin that the poorer kampung Malays.

It's an open secret that these elite Malays (like Mahathir, Daim and his cronies) rule the country by projecting that the government is protecting the special rights of the Malays while actually using many the provisions to benefit themselves. For instance, how many JPA/MARA overseas scholars actually are kampung Malays (who are poor and lack the resource of a decent education)?

If you research the background of CEOs and other top executives of government-linked companies like Renong, MAS, Tenaga, you'll find that most of the top managements are Malays who come from well-connected families.

I sincerely hope that sooner, rather than later, the majority of the Malays will get educated and informed to realize that they've been fooled, by the ruling Malay elites, into believing that the special rights actually helped them substantially.

Tun Dr. Mahathir was right and courageous to admit that the special rights did not help the majority of the Malays, but in fact made them a laughing stock of the rest of the population. But what he failed to tell them was that in the pretext of special rights, he has allowed the "elite Malays" (called Mahathir's cronies by some) to gain lucractive government contracts and important positions.

Since Merdeka, the ruling Malay elites have used and will continue to use divisive policies like special rights to divide the races in Malaysia. As long as BN remains in power, true racial integration is unachievable since BN wins elections by having different party components appealing to the different races.

I'm not suggesting that BN government is not for racial understanding and peace, in fact, it is in their interest for the races to live in harmony. But there's a difference between true racial integration (where we don't identify ourselves as Malay, Chinese, Indian etc) and racial harmony (where we just live peacefully together in a same country, but live in divided neighborhoods, go to different schools, and identify ourselves as a member of a specific race).

Please keep the discussion as dispassionate as possible.

I sometimes wonder why we should try not to be passionate about something that affects our country, our families and our future generation. Speaking the truth in a rational and sensible way promotes constructive debate.

I wrote my opinions on this issue for 2 reasons.

1. The fact that elite Malays are benefiting the most from the bumiputra special rights policy is not well-known.

2. My family and I have many Malay friends, some of which are close friends. The Malays, in general, are very kind, warm, and respectful people. I sincerely pity the less-educated, poorer, kampung Malays who believe that the bumiputra special rights is actually really helpful to them. I wish I could help them more, but hopefully some of you who have relation to them would enlighten them with the facts.

[Thirdshifter]

Ironically, the kampung Malays are not the ones benefiting the most from the special rights given by the government. It is the well-connected, relatively rich, urban (aka elite) Malays that benefit the most by allowing them access to government contracts, scholarships, etc..

That is a little over the top. Sounds like a consipiracy theory almost.

Malays in the kampung are benefiting from this. Only thin is you don't see it because your in the city.

For an example, Bachok a Malay with a darker complexion, From kedah and is now sponsored by JPA (i think) to study in the USA.

Not that i'm saying the special right is entirely responsible for this, but ofcourse with it in place. Malays get a higher chance of success and down the road it'll be people like bachok who benefited from it that will eventually get rid of it.

Fair? Absolutely not. Ridiculous? Far from it.

After all there's thousands of Malaysian-Chinese-Only scholarships. Thousands of Malaysian-Chinese-only Job. I even went to an engineering frim in KL that told, we're looking for chinese only. So it's pretty 2 X 5. Not that i'm saying it's justified but its not awful as most of us want to believe.

What concern me the most is the other minority, the Malaysian-Indians.

If the special right was to be abolished. Indians would be the one who would benefit the most. In terms of goverment hand-outs that is.

As a malay myself. I have to admit that my Mother and her parents did benefit from this clearly unbalanced rights. I didn't, but I'm sure if i was to open a business in the Kampung there would be thousands of goverment subsidies, advisories, consultant that i could utilize.

[topdog]

erm...what prince wrote, although not untrue, does not reflect the whole situation. forget mega contracts, tenders, etc that tend to benefit the same group of elite umno malays.

take a look at education. i think it is interesting to note that if you do a quick survey of the number of jpa/mara-sponsored overseas malay students whose parents themselves had been sponsored by the very same government agencies, you would find that the number is really high.

now, i am not saying that they do not deserve their scholarships. not at all. i see it as a cycle. jpa/mara take malay students who do well academically. malay students who do well academically usually come from more affluent families, and affluent families became so usually because they were assisted by the government. repeat this for generations.

how to break the cycle? abolish malay special rights and have instead an affirmative action policy to help the poor, regardless of race. i am not sure how well this would sit with our malay friends (i am sure feelings would vary from extreme opposition to wholehearted agreement). no one has the balls to do this. and perhaps prince's take on special rights being misused by the elite to enrich themselves is a major reason why.

p/s Thirdshifter, i don't understand what you mean by indians benefitting the most if malay special rights were abolished.

[Thirdshifter]

p/s Thirdshifter, i don't understand what you mean by indians benefitting the most if malay special rights were abolished.

I think indians are the poorest race in Malaysia. You'd shock yourself if you ask what a penoreh getah in slim river makes a month.

Since the majority of Indians are still infact in the rubber plantation (some are moving into Kelapa sawit/Palm)

These people desperately needs goverment hands out. Most Malay families with a total income less then 450/month gets hands outs. I think its about 115/mo for a child and 200/mo if they go to school. I'm sure Indians wouldn't mind this.

[topdog]

p/s Thirdshifter, i don't understand what you mean by indians benefitting the most if malay special rights were abolished.

I think indians are the poorest race in Malaysia. You'd shock yourself if you ask what a penoreh getah in slim river makes a month.

Since the majority of Indians are still infact in the rubber plantation (some are moving into Kelapa sawit/Palm)

These people desperately needs goverment hands out. Most Malay families with a total income less then 450/month gets hands outs. I think its about 115/mo for a child and 200/mo if they go to school. I'm sure Indians wouldn't mind this.

agreed.

i know pala started this thread with the intention of gauging the sentiments of future young malay professionals, so i really hope more malay recom members would respond...

<rant>i think bn's greatest achievement in our 47 years of independence has perfecting the art of mind control. they have managed to control the minds of malaysians. malays cling to their special rights as if having it taken a way would open a floodgate of chinese domination. chinese still fight to the death for chinese schools as if having a single national school system would malay-ize them. indians...are stuck in limbo (personally, i would puke if samy vellu represented my race). this whole system reeks of racism but we accept it in the spirit of "muhibbah" advocated by our dear wise leaders.</rant>

[Thirdshifter]

I think our dear leaders were trying to/Did act in the best interest of the majorities.

Also topdog, you pretty much nailed it. It is the fear of loosing nothing. Haven't you read the news lately? the BN got more votes then ever. Even people that are dead came back to life just to cast their votes one more time :D

[sanghanuman]

how to break the cycle? abolish malay special rights and have instead an affirmative action policy to help the poor, regardless of race.


In my opinion, this is a great change that we can make. Malay priviledge has been present for a long time, and not many Malays use this to the fullest. Malays can say that they might still need special priviledge (due to not much progress after a long time), but maybe the time has come when we think of people who really need help, like the poor.

Moreover, I think that in education, there is a lot of improvement on reducing the numbers of Malay students abroad(for example). We can't get up one day and declare that Malay priviledge is gone. Of course the Malays would go ballistic! However, I believe the government is changing it secretly, using step-by-step approach but that is just my humble observation.

On verra.

[__earth]

Moreover, I think that in education, there is a lot of improvement on reducing the numbers of Malay students abroad(for example).

please elaborate. I don't really get the idea.

[wwhong]

chinese still fight to the death for chinese schools as if having a single national school system would malay-ize them

that's true and it's a sad truth that the citizens have to fight for their basic rights. i think i should clarify and say something about this. Some of the people perceive the M'sian Chinese as "communist" or whatever name they call just because the majority of the Chinese want a mother tongue education. and Chinese schools are always being finger pointed as the obstacle in social harmony and racial unity.

I am not saying this representing the whole Chinese community in M'sia but I will throw my 2 cents of what's happening.

Yes, having a vision school with all the races studying under the same roof and then you can learn your mother tongue respectively is good but the question is, how much exactly are they going to implement? will the stuff they promised going to be fulfilled? there's too many question marks there and please do not blame the Chinese community for thinking in that way. how many times the chinese education is being used as a politics tool instead of education issue? ok, i think i already talked about this stuff in one of the earlier thread and so, here's my question:

- We respect the special right since it's written in the Constitution but we also demand we have the right to choose to learn in Chinese. Please do not worry about the racial unity stuff because the folks in Chinese school do learn Malay and English and won't be a big obstacle in communication (maybe not so fluent in speaking). The main root problem is the people's mental attitude. not Chinese school. I am really sick of reading all the news about how they have to fight hard to get our basic right. Is that too much to ask for? It's just basic right. Maybe you will start thinking that this guy is talking crap but turn the table around and see what your reaction will be. IF for whatever godsake reasons, the Malay school will be closed and all the learning will be in English, what will u do? smile and accept that happily and then throw away your culture and identity and proudly tell others that you can't understand malay?

i know i m kinda deviated from the topic but i think since special right is discussed, basic right should be discussed too. i m bringing this up because i think some of our future leaders are going to read it and i hope things can be changed and improved when our generation comes to run the government. it really sucks to have a feeling of second class citizen sometime.

[phantom]

the special right is one way for the malays to affirm that they owned the current country we called our beloved homeland.

remember the days when the malays gave the non-malays,(the so-called immigrants) the right to be the citizen of our country.as a pay-back,i surmise that the malay need special right.a way of them telling that they were/are and will be the 1st owners of the land.

Malay Union never worked,it breathed "jus soli",the small-minded principle that allowed the right of being a Malayan(it's Malaya that time) by simply being born after the year 1948.the malays found it hard-to-digest,having huge trepidation that they would lose their own land to the mounting immigrant figures.and sure..now,malay union was a mere mirage in a history books.

amid all,amid having all of these in mind,i am against the malay right.I didn't find the justfication of knowing that a malay (hey,he came from a kampung),who vaguely scored 8 1As are reading engineering in a same uni as I am now.He didn't appeal,he didnt do anything.he got it.while me,I have to implore JPA e'week so that I'll be here.i still remember the pain of sitting outside the pengarah jpa office with a file fulled of certs and praying so hard that i'll make it.and i have to go through all of that becoz and only becoz i didnt have the right skin tone.that for me was crap!!and now that malay couldn't even make into the 3.0 cgpa bracket.

fighting against the special right will be like dragging our country to a civil war or repeating the may 13th tragedy.i believe the malay need some help to compete with other race.in any country you go,the immigrants are more hard working than the native ppl and hence turn up to be more successful .

let's take fiji for an example,49% indian and 51% native fijians.what happened?even though the indian became Fiji's PM,the native fijians fought back and hauled that tiny land into skirmish.turning the country's hard-work and wealth into destruction.

for me,honestly,though how inflame i could be,i think,i can only wish for the mantra "malaysia is for malaysians" to be another rules coded in our perlembangan.but it is just a wish.not more,not less.

but i wish,equal oppurtunity will be ruled when it comes to education,uni-entrance.dont crashed ppl's dreams just becoz they are not tanned-skin ppl.

[topdog]

erm...i think i have to make my stand clear. i used the examples of chinese schools and malay special rights to illustrate how bn has been able to stay in power for so long...by maintaining an atmosphere where each race is afraid of being dominated by the other race and forever suspicious of the other's motives.

i do not support chinese schools. or islamic schools, tamil schools, malay-only boarding schools for that matter. i know the majority of chinese do not feel this way. i am definitely out of touch with the majority because i did not go to chinese schools (got to ask my father why, since he's chinese educated himself). so it's just my personal opinion.

[__earth]

there should be no race conscious policy. here, IMNSHO (:D) , malaysia should learn from the US.

affirmative action should be based on individual socioeconomic status. it should never be racially based because if it is racially based, it would in the end gives unfair advantage to ppl that don't need it.

at the same time, all malaysians, should go through the same education system. if one refuses, one should go to private school. A govt that sponsors venarcular system is no better than a apartheid govt.

if special rights and the venarcular system continue to exist, malaysia would always be racially divided no matter how hard you try to disprove it. furthermore, internal policy would always be based on "racial harmony" that pivots on a needle eye.

therefore, IMO again, in order to eliminate racist policy, bumiputra rights and govt sponsored/aided-vernacular education system should be abolished.

all malaysians are the same. no one should get extra rights or special treatment.

[Thirdshifter]

there should be no race conscious policy. here, IMNSHO (:D) , malaysia should learn from the US.

affirmative action should be based on individual socioeconomic status. it should never be racially based because if it is racially based, it would in the end gives unfair advantage to ppl that don't need it.

at the same time, all malaysians, should go through the same education system. if one refuses, one should go to private school. A govt that sponsors venarcular system is no better than a apartheid govt.

if special rights and the venarcular system continue to exist, malaysia would always be racially divided no matter how hard you try to disprove it. furthermore, internal policy would always be based on "racial harmony" that pivots on a needle eye.

therefore, IMO again, in order to eliminate racist policy, bumiputra rights and govt sponsored/aided-vernacular education system should be abolished.

all malaysians are the same. no one should get extra rights or special treatment.

As you said it many many post ago. Majority rules even if its a misinformed majority.

Rasicm would still stay well after malays special right has been abolished. Discrimination however is something we all could live without. Let the game be played on the same turf.

We need to actually pass laws like the "equal oppurtunity" law. Or re-write the whole constitution (including the one that says, the PM should be a Malay)

No discrimination.

So next time when i walk into a chinese owned business and they refuse to hire on the base "only chinese" i could sue the heck out them :D

[wwhong]

totally agree with _earth as long as everyone's basic right and freedom is being respected.

m'sia will be a heaven to live if that will be true.

[topdog]

wwhong, i'm confused. so are you in support of or not in support of [edit: government-sponsored] chinese schools? since earth is saying that both bumiputra rights AND government-sponsored chinese (and other vernacular) schools should be abolished.

[sanghanuman]

Moreover, I think that in education, there is a lot of improvement on reducing the numbers of Malay students abroad(for example).

please elaborate. I don't really get the idea.

What I was trying to say is that, in comparison with say, 7 years ago, the government has increasingly giving education opportunities to the Chinese as well (not so much for the Indians though). But I do not have statistics to back this observation.

[yekban81]

Special rights is no longer effective as it is when Malays are the poorest in the past. It may have even instill "cukup makan" attitude in Malays since they do not need to put as much effort as what others, who are not entitled with,have to in order to get admitted into university, to secure a scholarship, to get business contract...and so many more.

I believe, the top governments have realised this consequences that they begin to reduce the quota of Malay in university intake and scholarship award. I hope to see this steps as an initial effort to achieve a day when we can proudly say "We, Malaysian are all equal"

[Thirdshifter]

I believe, the top governments have realised this consequences that they begin to reduce the quota of Malay in university intake and scholarship award.

The existence of UMNO is to ensure this never happens. UMNO is protect the Malay ownership of malaysia. Only a malay leader should lead Malaysia. Read it up, you'd be surprise how many chinese are for this by voting for BN.

Ironically, the kampung Malays are not the ones benefiting the most from the special rights given by the government. It is the well-connected, relatively rich, urban (aka elite) Malays that benefit the most by allowing them access to government contracts, scholarships, etc..

That is a little over the top. Sounds like a consipiracy theory almost.

Malays in the kampung are benefiting from this. Only thin is you don't see it because your in the city.

For an example, Bachok a Malay with a darker complexion, From kedah and is now sponsored by JPA (i think) to study in the USA.

Not that i'm saying the special right is entirely responsible for this, but ofcourse with it in place. Malays get a higher chance of success and down the road it'll be people like bachok who benefited from it that will eventually get rid of it.

Fair? Absolutely not. Ridiculous? Far from it.

After all there's thousands of Malaysian-Chinese-Only scholarships. Thousands of Malaysian-Chinese-only Job. I even went to an engineering frim in KL that told, we're looking for chinese only. So it's pretty 2 X 5. Not that i'm saying it's justified but its not awful as most of us want to believe.

What concern me the most is the other minority, the Malaysian-Indians.

If the special right was to be abolished. Indians would be the one who would benefit the most. In terms of goverment hand-outs that is.

As a malay myself. I have to admit that my Mother and her parents did benefit from this clearly unbalanced rights. I didn't, but I'm sure if i was to open a business in the Kampung there would be thousands of goverment subsidies, advisories, consultant that i could utilize.

This is not any made-up theory, my arguments and facts are based on observations and analysis of the political situation in Malaysia.

Note that I didn't say that the poorer kampung Malays are not benefiting at all from the bumiputra special rights policy, but not benefiting much in comparison to the more affluent elite Malays.

Sure, you can find a few kampung Malays getting JPA/MARA scholarships, but as topdog pointed out, the vast majority are from families that are educated, middle and upper-class.
(BTW, topdog, your first sentence in your first post doesn't seem to correspond to the rest of your points - mind explaining?)

Before making baseless claims, prove to us that
1. There are thousand of Malaysian-Chinese-only scholarships.
2. There are thousand of Malaysian-Chinese-only jobs.

On (1), there may be very few and isolated scholarships offered by say some parts of the chinese community, certainly not thousands of them. In addition, these scholarships are not open for all Malaysian-chinese. In fact, I know of some indian communities offering scholarships for excelling indian students and the same goes for the other communities.

But the distinction should be drawn between community-based scholarship and government-based scholarship. In community-based scholarship, the money comes from the community themselves. In government-based scholarship, the money comes from taxpayers and is the wealth of the nation.

Can you name me one - yes just one - scholarship that is sourced from taxpayers money that gives an advantage to the chinese?

On the other hand, a 15-year old can probably name many scholarships that are open exclusively to bumiputras.

On (2), you must be the most naive person in Malaysia not to know that there's a policy that forces companies to hire a certain quota of bumiputras. And believe me, most companies have trouble filling up their bumiputra quota.
Sure, there may be some racist chinese employer who will not accept a non-chinese employee, but one has to wonder how the racist employer will fill the quota.

[wwhong]

wwhong, i'm confused. so are you in support of or not in support of [edit: government-sponsored] chinese schools? since earth is saying that both bumiputra rights AND government-sponsored chinese (and other vernacular) schools should be abolished.

i replied after reading just half way of what _earth wrote because that really hits me and attracts me a lot. isn't it the best if everyone has the equal right in m'sia? really not a good idea to surf recom and do hw at the same time, my bad.

i do not intend to bring up another issue and mess up the discussion but since the topic is being brough up and i was refered to it, i will talk a bit about it. skip the paragraphs below if you are just looking to discuss special rights.

talking about support or not support the vernacular system, it's really hard to give a definite yes or no answer based on the 2 reasons below.

1) if the so called ideal school (for simplicity sake just call it that way) can let the student choose to learn his/her mother tongue without any obstacles, then it's fine. BUT, the reality is, chinese language is sort of being oppressed in m'sia. Look at UTM, the Chinese Language Society can't even exist legally there (that's the situation before I left, maybe it already changed). Even the university can't tolerate the existence of chinese language related society then how do you convincce the chinese community to believe that there won't be any obstacles in the ideal school? PLEASE do not misunderstanf that the chinese community wanna be separated from the society or what but just want to learn about own's language and culture, i dun think that's too much to ask for right?


2) even if the ideal school exists and student have the freedom in learning their own language, then come another problem. people will say, if Ali speak Malay, Ah Chong speaks Chinese and Muthu speaks Indian then how the racial unity gonna be achieved if they cannot even communicate?

there's so much i thought of right now. there are many constraints and conflicts in that matter. however, vanishing any other types of school is not a good solution because one must realize that m'sia is a unique country. the things that applied in other country do not necassarily applied to m'sia.

at least in a short term, vernacular school is a better solution. it's extremely hard to please everyone. however, maybe more stuffs can be done outside of school to encourage the interaction and integration among races. for eg, maybe a cross state student exchange program where a chinese student will do a homestay in a malay family and vice versa? in that way, a student can experience different culture and at the same time can explore the other state of m'sia. of course it's easier said than done and i really have no idea how feasible it would be but just my 2 cents.

thank you for your patience

The existence of UMNO is to ensure this never happens. UMNO is protect the Malay ownership of malaysia. Only a malay leader should lead Malaysia. Read it up, you'd be surprise how many chinese are for this by voting for BN.

Yes, of course UMNO will continue to ensure that the majority of Malays believe that their special rights is preserved, when the reality is that most of the benefits are channeled to the elite Malays.

Read my first three articles in page 1 and judge for yourself.

[Shian_Ling_the_Duchess]

sorry if i am not following the latest topic in this thread..

but i believe that all citizens of Malaysia deserve equal rights. As long asI am born in Malaysia, i am just as "Malaysian" as any other race.

To narrow the economical/educational/whatsoever gap should not start by granting "absolute" special rights. This is against the basic human rights notion that "all human are born equal" and does not have solid ground. The only way to TRULY unite the whole people of Malaysia is by recognizing full rights of every citizen, regardless of class/race. Narrowing any gap between races should start from here, mutual respect, assitance and understanding.

We need to actually pass laws like the "equal oppurtunity" law. Or re-write the whole constitution (including the one that says, the PM should be a Malay)

No discrimination.

So next time when i walk into a chinese owned business and they refuse to hire on the base "only chinese" i could sue the heck out them :D

There is no code in the Malaysian constitution that says only a Malay can be a PM. Considering your creative memory on many accounts, one has put your last line "i walk into a chinese owned business and they refuse to hire on the base 'only chinese' " into question.

[aquila]

I believe, the top governments have realised this consequences that they begin to reduce the quota of Malay in university intake and scholarship award.

The existence of UMNO is to ensure this never happens. UMNO is protect the Malay ownership of malaysia. Only a malay leader should lead Malaysia. Read it up, you'd be surprise how many chinese are for this by voting for BN.

Excuse me, we Chinese vote for BN because there's no clear alternative. The opposition front scares us to death with PAS at the forefront fighting for an Islamic state. We clearly didn't vote for BN because we support Malays' special rights. I think common sense will tell you that.

About special rights, I've been thinking about it nowadays. If we take a look at the countries around us: Indonesia, Phillipines and others where they physically persecute Chinese because the natives are poor, do you think Msia's DEB helped to quell that kind of unjustified anger?

As suggested earlier, I agree that the govt should help the poor and not just a specific race of people. It makes no sense to support and sponsor the daughter of Petronas' president who makes more money than an entire kampung combined when her dad clearly has the ability to send her abroad. I think JPA's system is a bit flawed. I mean not just the Malays, even VERY rich Chinese and Indians get the scholarship. What's with that? Sponsor only people who cannot afford to go overseas!!! Don't dash the hopes of middle class and working class children, whatever their race may be. These people are our country's future so if the govt is smart or prudent, they should be careful not to make the rich richer.

This reminds me of how the elites oppress the poor. It's unfortunate that the diff races were categorized according to their relative wealth in the past BUT wake up everyone!!! Nowadays, it's not about the Chinese against the Malays, or vice versa. It's about the elites oppressing the poor and middle class families by dividing us according to our racial lines.

Look at this scenario, say a rich Malay gets a contract from a govt because of his bumiputra rights and connections, and he gives the contract to a Chinese (who I presume is rich as well). Who benefits? THE RICH!?!?!?

Also, about lamenting that some Chinese companies hire only Chinese, I think some Chinese gets fed up with the special rights issue and just want to rebel. I really don't know. maybe they're racists or bigots but I just suggested a possibility.

I think Malaysia has a long way to go in terms of racial integration. There are definitely many racists and bigots (even us! surprise surprise! and you though 4 yrs of US education would liberalize us) that exist still. Read some of the posts on Recom and you will get what I mean. However, I believe that people can change. The Msian govt should work towards enabling that change to take place.

My Malay and Indian friends are awesome, there's no doubt about that. I'd have lost out so much on those friendships if I had stayed within my Chinese circle. Actually I went to a 90% Malay school (there were only 7 Chinese in my class of 40 and even fewer in other classes), so maybe that makes me more comfortable around Malays. I know many people who don't think like I do and I think that there has to be an attitude change. if you don't mix with ppl of other races and listen only to demagogues who are trying to gather power in a way that is not in your best interest, why be fooled by them?

Change Recomers!!! We have had the opportunity of using taxpayers' money to come overseas. We need to do better than going back to Msia with no paradigm shift. Mix with people who are different from you. Dare to venture into uncomfortable zones! I mean I'm THAT much more comfortable with my Msian friends, be they Malay, Chinese, Indian than with my American friends but I mixed still. Nowadays, I'm much more comfortable around people who sometimes don't even understand my accent!

[yekban81]

From what Thirdshifter have said, I guess many more Malays are thinking like that too. Anyway, I hope to clear the misunderstanding.

We, chinese(I hate to use this racial group name) vote for BN not based on the main objective of UMNO to protect Malay ownership. Forgive my ignorance, I even have forgotten that UMNO is protecting the Malay ownership. Many chinese lose faith in DAP due to their past alliance with PAS and turn to support BN out of no better choice. Chinese simply are "NO" to Islamic State.

Here, I eagerly want to know more views from others especially Malays about the special rights. Do you feel that the special rights are still fulfilling its objectives today? Could it be misused for self interest? Prince has bring out that issue but how far true it is.

[Thirdshifter]

We need to actually pass laws like the "equal oppurtunity" law. Or re-write the whole constitution (including the one that says, the PM should be a Malay)

No discrimination.

So next time when i walk into a chinese owned business and they refuse to hire on the base "only chinese" i could sue the heck out them :D

There is no code in the Malaysian constitution that says only a Malay can be a PM. Considering your creative memory on many accounts, one has put your last line "i walk into a chinese owned business and they refuse to hire on the base 'only chinese' " into question.

I guess you never in worked malaysia, or applied for one yet.


Trust me, this is a well-known ignored fact.

Go around the shoppin malls in Bukit bintang, Wear a Malay mask and ask for a job at a chinese restaurant, a chinese boutique, any chinese retailer.

I was in penang and there was one store that put a poster that reads something like.. Looking for salesgirl, only chinese. Fllowed by some chinese letters.

It was a store selling women clothings.

Also, pick up a Malaysian daily and go over the classifieds and you'll find at least one of these similar requirements everyday. Truth hurts doesn't it?

Yeah, in the constitution has freedom of speech and gathering in peace written in it too.

Over the years there's more laws that had been passed which took more of the rights which was guaranteed in the constitution.it. For an example.. Now you need a permit to do a public gathering.

[Thirdshifter]

Many chinese lose faith in DAP due to their past alliance with PAS and turn to support BN out of no better choice. Chinese simply are "NO" to Islamic State.]

And chinese Idea of an Islamic state is?
I'm a Malay and I would identify myself as a Muslim. Even though pro-Secular but the majority of malays don't share my opinion.

Statements such as, Chinese would say NO to an Islamic state is offensive to Muslims in general. It's almost as saying the Law which Muslims believe was mandated to them by Allah is wrong.

Even UMNO led BN had to play as a religious Party to convince the Majority malays that UMNO is protecting both, Malay and Islam.

After all according to the constituion many of us upheld so respectively here. To be a Malay one has to be a Muslim as well.

[USSDefiantNX74205]

The existence of UMNO is to ensure this never happens. UMNO is protect the Malay ownership of malaysia. Only a malay leader should lead Malaysia. Read it up, you'd be surprise how many chinese are for this by voting for BN.

This has got to be the one most ridiculous statements I've ever read in my life. What do you mean by 'Malay ownership of Malaysia'? Do Malays really own the country? I am Chinese and so are millions of others who have lived, worked, sweated, toiled and even spilled their blood for this country for generations. If it wasn't for the economic growth and contributions that immigrants brought, Malaysia would not even be what it is now - an economic powerhouse. But after all that, there are still efforts to brand non-Malays as 'immigrants' though they have been here for generations and have contributed to the country so much. It sickens me that there is still distinction between 'bumiputra' and 'non-bumiputra' despite all our so called 'racial integration', 'racial harmony' and 'racial tolerance'. Perhaps that's all there is after all these years - tolerance, but no real unity. And the machinery for doing so is still at work - bumiputra rights, that deprive honest, hardworking Malaysians who unfortunately have the distinction of being labelled 'non-Bumiputra' of the rewards they deserve. It appalls me to hear a person claiming ownership rights to a country for a race.

What Tun Dr Mahathir said was right. Perhaps the Malays have become too dependent on these rights that they now even fear to imagine what will happen if these rights are taken away from them. What everyone must understand, is that these rights serve nothing but to divide us Malaysians. True, maybe during the 1960s and 70s there was an economic gap between the Malays and non-Malays, but after about 30 years of having these laws and rights in place, the Malays are now on equal terms with all the other races. The continued implementation of these rights will only serve to make the Malays complacent, which will put them at a disadvantage not in terms of wealth, but in terms of social stature.

I'm sad to say this, but the general perception among most Chinese is that Malays are lazy, complacent and undependable because whenever the need arises for something, they almost always fall back to these rights and expect the government to give them whatever they want. Though I disagree with this perception (I have a lot of Malay friends and most of them are hardworking, honest people), the fact that these rights are in place still gives others the idea that Malays are dependent on it. I read an article over a year ago written by a Malay guy who complained that his efforts in scoring straight As in his SPMs were not appreciated because he is Malay, and people assume that he'll get his scholarships and stuff even if he didn't score straight As. You see what I'm getting at now?

Every morning I sing the Negaraku with fellow Malaysians of all races, and I can sincerely say that I am proud to do so. The non-Malays love this country as much as the Malays and are willing to sacrifice just as much. Contrary to popular belief, we are not the selfish, cunning and opportunistic people that we are perceived to be and there should not be rights or laws based on this misconception. If at all, these rights only serve to make the non-Malays more selfish, cunning and opportunistic. What I hope for, is a fairer, less racist Malaysia where hard work is truly appreciated and special previleges are not given solely based on skin color or a person being 'special', because to do so contravenes every single idea in the dream that is Malaysia.

Lastly, I hope I didn't offend anyone or give the impression that I am taking a racist stand against the Malays. But if I did, I only did it unknowingly and I sincerely apologize for it. I'm just merely stating what I believe in, and I hope you all understand that.

[USSDefiantNX74205]

Anyway, I guess I should be expecting some flak for that shouldn't I? :(

[topdog]

okay i'm really busy right now but decided to do a drive-by to see how you guys are getting along in this hangat thread.

looks like hangat thermometer has reached atmospheric heights.

first off, i would like to defend thirdshifter on misconceptions that he is a malay supremacist. ussdefiant you misunderstood thirdshifter. from the statement you quoted, thirdshifter was actually being anti- umno. he is saying umno is racist but people fail to see that. he is not racist. if anything i would consider him to be over liberal. i think he would be labeled a heretic in malaysia for some of his views on religion, including islam.:D

about why chinese vote for bn the answer is simple. no choice. keadilan would have been great had they had an ounce of brains and not allied with pas. dap...well they did win a few seats in parliament didnt they. in any case dap is too small...and too chinese.

and third i think you should not equate umno's discriminatory policies with some chinese who jaga their own race first. why? one is institutionalized (malay special rights), the other is probably a result of frustation with being treated as 2nd class citizens (chinese). and prince chinese-only hiring practices do exist in malaysia. you can even find it in newspaper job ads.

prince i will clarify my "contradictory first sentence" shortly. actually, tomorrow after my exam. the way i see it the biggest problem is our education system. more on that later.

[topdog]

one more thing, third, you are underestimating non-muslim's fear of pas' version of an islamic state. we really have no problem with how bn is handling the islam issue. heck when you watch 6pm pearl drama on tv3 your viewing will have to be interrupted for a while to make way for sembahyang maghrib (i do hope i got the prayer right here...). but that's okay, as long as our lives are not dictated by islamic law. under pas, our lives would be dictated by islamic law. like it or not, rightly or not, that alone is enough to scare non-muslims away from pas or any party that made pacts with pas.

[Schye]

Rasicm would still stay well after malays special right has been abolished. Discrimination however is something we all could live without. Let the game be played on the same turf.

We need to actually pass laws like the "equal oppurtunity" law. Or re-write the whole constitution
but i believe that all citizens of Malaysia deserve equal rights. As long asI am born in Malaysia, i am just as "Malaysian" as any other race.
I agree with the above statements and I believe that discriminations will exist as long as there is any acts of differentiate one with others. As I have learned in my sociology classes, the best way to curb discriminations is by the LAW and wow, it seems that we still have LAW to differentiate us in Malaysia.

affirmative action should be based on individual socioeconomic status. it should never be racially based because if it is racially based, it would in the end gives unfair advantage to ppl that don't need it.
An idea that should be and could be implemented ASAP if Msians are more educated and more open minded. Tell me what does a poor students with excellent result feels when one of our government scholar (with the aggregate of 14 who is from Subang ) tells you that his father asked him to take the scholarship as a travel trip. Used up all the money to enjoy his life and when he is back to Msia, he ?will? become a pilot. In fact, he did so and failed BUT he still got his scholarship continued.

I think the idea of national school is good if the one mentioned here is different vernacular school sharing the same facilities.(canteen, hall, co-curiculum activities etc) for primary school and have ONLY Sek. Men. Kebangsaan after that. Formed our character and culture in primary and mix with others in secondary with our own identity.
I was in SRJK(C) and entered SMK Ibrahim where there are only 15 of us who can write Mandarin. I found that I have learned a lot and in fact, I have lots of close Malay and Indian friends. When I talk to my friends who entered 100% Chinese school, I found most of them either hard to accept other races or worse hate them. That is what makes me feel that the gap should be filled.

[Schye]

By the way, I hope that when we are posting our OWN opinions, PLEASE do not used the phrase ?we, Malay ? or ?we, Chinese?.

We had a similar discussion before on Malaysia education and to those who joined Recom late, it maybe a good reference.

http://www.recom.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=117&start=90

[yekban81]

I wonder...sorry first if my following statement is offensive.
I have long observed that every Friday noon, majority of Malays who drive motorbike to fulfill their prayer in Mosque do not wear helmets. Instead, they wear their "songkok" as if the "songkok" can replace the safety helmet. I really cannot understand logically about that. Don't they care about their own safety, not to mention to abide with the traffic law?
Seems that no "saman" is issued to them, then I assume that "helmet not necessary during Friday prayer" is also one of the special rights given, isn't it. Please enlighten.

Yeah, chinese fear in Islamic State of PAS is significantly evident in the big lose of DAP in the previous general election when DAP took self-devastating step to join the BA with PAS.

[Thirdshifter]

and third i think you should not equate umno's discriminatory policies with some chinese who jaga their own race first. why? one is institutionalized (malay special rights), the other is probably a result of frustation with being treated as 2nd class citizens (chinese). and prince chinese-only hiring practices do exist in malaysia. you can even find it in newspaper job ads.

prince i will clarify my "contradictory first sentence" shortly. actually, tomorrow after my exam. the way i see it the biggest problem is our education system. more on that later.

I could agree to that topdog. I however still think that the idea of some chinese openly 'jaga their own race first' would only keep Malays on their toes when it comes to their special rights.

Also i agree, It is the education system that needs the fix.

I understand what your trying to say about PAS, heck as a Muslim myself i think Having religious bodies such as Jabatan Agama Islam Wilayah persekuatuan is already a bad idea.

Still, Publicly denouncing anything related fundamentally to Islam, (Islam State in this case) would only make PAS more stronger.

[DecentMerson]

and the double parking (if not triple parking) around the mosque every friday and during buka puasa bazaar...they seem invincible by the law... or invisible to the traffic police... :?: :roll:

it is not only troublesome for causing unnecessary congestion, but also dangerous driving condition...

maybe it's just me... or is there someone else who feel there's something more dangerous than the special rights... which is invisible special rights...not stated in black and white...

and about the special rights for not wearing helmet.... it is only those who wears a turban are allowed to disregard the law....

if i am not wrong, current law says that u have to wear the helmet if u are not wearing a turban...

[yekban81]

DecentMerson, you have voiced out your frustations in a wrong channel; out of topic..haha
So wearing helmet is a must unless you wear turban or "songkok".
I can only say that the law makers and approvers do not care about the safety of motorist more than the aspect of convenience and some other reasons that I don't know.

[yekban81]

I understand what your trying to say about PAS, heck as a Muslim myself i think Having religious bodies such as Jabatan Agama Islam Wilayah persekuatuan is already a bad idea.

Why do you think like that, Third? Mind to explain. I thought JAI preserve and regulate the Islamic law to make sure Muslims are faithful and following the Islam teaching. So I think it is an important government body.

I admit that chinese does not know more details, not to mention to understand the concept of Islamic State. They, including I, just strongly believe that our rights such as wearing cloth to their liking, vernacular education, mother language education and so on will be reduced or abolished in an Islamic State as proposed by PAS. But, I think our country is actually an Islamic State since that Islam is the national religion except that we are not practising the Islam Law to the extreme. In overall, I feel good with BN's dealing in protecting ISlam and Muslim now.

However, I am more concerned about the special rights. Do they really fulfill the objectives nowadays as once it does when Malays were desperately in need of help? I agree very much to the following statement by earth. The special rights need to be rewritten in that way so that the misuse of special rights will not occur.

affirmative action should be based on individual socioeconomic status. it should never be racially based because if it is racially based, it would in the end gives unfair advantage to ppl that don't need it.

[NickManziq]

This is a very provocative issue. I suggest that no one should ask political things in here - very inappropriate.

allright, i get the hint; we should speak out our mind since this is what recom is all about.

for one thing, non malays should not question the special rights of malay as that is the agreement made by our former leaders in the 50's/60's (sorry, i hate history). yeah, it was and still is bullshit but look on the bright side; at least the non-malays had their citizenship or else, none of the non-malays in here would have the opportunities to study overseas under the gov's scholarship.

think about it, those chinese/indian immigrants didnt had anywhere to go. and if they went back to their so-called homeland, i doubt it that they would survive (the conditions in china and india at those time). so, for those who questioned this special rights (non malays), you guys should be thankful that you are a citizen of malaysia. that was the agreement; for your forefathers to become a citizen, they had to pay something in return, and that was/is accepting the special rights of malays. and for the malays, they were/are willing to put aside some space on their country for the non-malays.

if if the non-malays are still not satisfied, my suggestion is run, run as far as you can. migrate to US, Canada or S'pore? or maybe China - the current economy is pretty good. i have a couple of chinese friends who migrate to NZ because they dont like the special rights thingy and being a chinese means second class in m'sia.

well, too bad. that's life; no one can have too many good things in their life.

as for the malays, sorry to say but i do think that the special rights should be limited to a certain extent. now, i'm not into politics so i'm very ignorant about the special rights of malays, other than priority for scholarships.

some malays are sooo lazy because they think that everything will be guaranteed by the government. if their businesses dont go well, they will expect the gov to back them out; doesnt need to get good result because their space in uni's are guaranteed. as a result, most malays are not competitive.
(MOST means not all, okay?)

yeah, i'm a malay but by birth, not by heart(?) i'm not even pure, i barely mix with malays, lived in chinatown for 10 years, and i only follow the some of traditions - cuz my mom forces me.

so, i dont support the malays in this case, and neither the non malays. yeah, maybe the special rights should be revise, a little bit, so that some malays can still stand on their own feet.

owh wud the fcuk. it's 3 am and i have a date with my awesome German Math TA this afternoon. cant hardly wait!!!!

[FiAnS]

Nick, Nick... Don't tell everyone that you are GAY by heart (not by practice though)... What can I say about my roommate....

[NickManziq]

Nick, Nick... Don't tell everyone that you are GAY by heart (not by practice though)... What can I say about my roommate....

damn....maybe i am. hahahhaha, do me a favor pian, turn around from your desk and suck my **ck!!!!!!

hey, the date is purely educational okie? ahem, he's going to teach me math, that is. dont get the wrong idea.

wait, this is special rights forum. so keep typing about it guys

[NickManziq]

and the double parking (if not triple parking) around the mosque every friday and during buka puasa bazaar...they seem invincible by the law... or invisible to the traffic police... :?: :roll:

it is not only troublesome for causing unnecessary congestion, but also dangerous driving condition...

maybe it's just me... or is there someone else who feel there's something more dangerous than the special rights... which is invisible special rights...not stated in black and white...

and about the special rights for not wearing helmet.... it is only those who wears a turban are allowed to disregard the law....

if i am not wrong, current law says that u have to wear the helmet if u are not wearing a turban...

logically, if the guy-who-wear-turban involves in an accident, the turban will decrease the impact of collison to his head by serving as a soft cushion.

well, this is not actually about special rights. it's about the right to practice one's religion. everyone has to compromise.

no moslem/hindu complain about chinese cemeteries being so obvious at the corner of the road. dont believe me? come to kch. you can actually see the chinese gravestones like almost everywhere- alongside the road. i'm exaggerating...

[USSDefiantNX74205]

Yeah, I agree with NickManziq. You don't need a helmet if you've got a turban on (for obvious reasons!), and it does not only apply to Muslims. Sikhs too do not need to wear helmets if they've got their turbans on. Not very sure about the skullcaps though. Perhaps the govt should look into it? Also, can't help but notice - most of the politicians and party workers campaigining on motorcycle recently don't wear helmets. Now that's surely against the law isn't it?

Looks like I'm deviating from the topic again...go on with the special rights issues...

[mpalanieppan]

At the moment, I think everyone should be thankful to everyone else since all citizens of Malaysia, in one way or other, have contributed to our nation's current status, not only non-malays to malays.

And I strongly agree with the suggestion on affirmative action toward the poor. This would help the poor a lot more and also remove the dependence of the already prospered Malays on these rights, thus channelling the money towards those who need it.

[topdog]

*warning: long.

so, for those who questioned this special rights (non malays), you guys should be thankful that you are a citizen of malaysia.
by your logic, do you think that the malays too do not have the right to question the ruling malay party (umno if you forget), since they are the creators and guardians of your precious special rights? a piece of advice to those who have the good fortune of studying abroad - if you cannot recognize racism and bigotry for what they are, whether in yourself or in others, you have wasted the taxpayers' money. i feel that is even worse than failing exams.

i think what prince wrote about the ruling malay elite essentially deceiving low income malays into believing that they are indeed benefitting a lot from this special rights, has more truth to it than i orignally thought. i wonder, if some impartial organization were to do a scientific survey of the distribution of wealth among malays stemming from special rights, what would the findings show?

prince, that sentence where i wrote "does not reflect the whole scenario" was badly worded. i meant to say that i would prefer to concentrate on emphasizing the urgency of de-racializing our education system. as __earth wrote, all students should go through only one education system. if you feel that you need to go a different route, whether for culture or religion, go to a private school.

why is this important?

consider my case. i went to a national former-catholic missionary school that was (and still is) mostly chinese. throughout my 5 years in secondary school, my classes were almost 100% chinese, except for the first form where there was one malay. where were the malays? most of the malays in my school were always languishing in the bottom classes, while the top malays were gathered and sent off to malay boarding schools - mrsm, etc.

did i develop a prejudice towards the malay race? of course, i am not going to lie. i am sure all of us here have at one time or another had conversations with our same-race cliques where we did not see other races in a very favorable light. it was only after i got the jpa scholarship and went to ppp that i realized that, gee, these people are smart too. if my school, a so-called SMK, could not succeed in fostering better race relations, but instead, unwittingly created MORE prejudice in students, i do not believe that students in government-sponsored/aided chinese, tamil, islamic, and malay boarding schools are doing any better. do not try to convince me otherwise because i do not believe it.

why is it necessary to de-racialize our school system? aren't things fine now as they are?

no, things are not fine as they are. i believe that by putting all schoolchildren through the same education system, the playing field will have no choice but to level itself. what is one of the main grouses of the chinese right now? inequal access to public universities. what people fail to see is there can never be equal access to universities, in our current education system, because it will be too easy for politicians to use racial politics to achieve an illusion of harmony. if chinese from chinese ed schools start demanding for total meritocracy, politicians can say, "fine, then we will take away your chinese schools." and they can tell the malays, "see, the chinese want to take away your special rights, but still want to have their own schools. they don't want to share." and the more gullible malays will fall for it. is this racial harmony? i call this a nation waiting to implode.

if everybody goes through the same school system, i think it will be significantly harder for the government to use race as its trump card for every policy that affects the nation. using the example of access to public universities, do you not think that current discriminatory policies practised by the powers-that-be would be more glaring to students of all races if they studied side-by side in the same schools? i mean, perhaps the malay student who would otherwise be shielded all his life in boarding school would be more aware of the injustice faced by the regular chinese student when the chinese student is denied equal opportunities, if they both studied under the same roof in the same class?

now, i realize that it is impossible to implement a single school system like this by force. for one, the majority of the public still want vernacular schools. more importantly, the barisan will never want to abolish vernacular schools.

the reason i wrote this is to drive home the point that we, the so-called brains of the nation, have to realize that we have been held hostage by the R-word for too long. we have to realize that for true equality to exist in malaysia, each race has to be prepared to give up part of its identity. you cannot have it only your way and disregard how the other party would feel about it. otherwise, malaysia will forever be malay, chinese and indian - you do your thing, i do my thing, and i hide dissatisfaction inside me so as not to jeopardize the bits and crumbs given to me by the all-knowing leaders. a good place to start would be to just realize that, yes, the education system is rotten and there is a need for change. you want change? do not hope in your wildest dreams that the government will give you the change you want if you do not even realize what change the nation really needs.

[sanghanuman]

for one thing, non malays should not question the special rights of malay as that is the agreement made by our former leaders in the 50's/60's (sorry, i hate history). yeah, it was and still is bull$#!+ but look on the bright side; at least the non-malays had their citizenship or else, none of the non-malays in here would have the opportunities to study overseas under the gov's scholarship.

think about it, those chinese/indian immigrants didnt had anywhere to go. and if they went back to their so-called homeland, i doubt it that they would survive (the conditions in china and india at those time). so, for those who questioned this special rights (non malays), you guys should be thankful that you are a citizen of malaysia. that was the agreement; for your forefathers to become a citizen, they had to pay something in return, and that was/is accepting the special rights of malays. and for the malays, they were/are willing to put aside some space on their country for the non-malays.

if if the non-malays are still not satisfied, my suggestion is run, run as far as you can. migrate to US, Canada or S'pore? or maybe China - the current economy is pretty good. i have a couple of chinese friends who migrate to NZ because they dont like the special rights thingy and being a chinese means second class in m'sia.



Jeez man, I hope nobody takes this idea as the Malays' view of the situation. These statements probably come from some extreme supporters of Malays' priviledge who have not move forward but still reminisce on history. Let's get history out of the way forever right now, and deal with the current situation.Thanks.

[__earth]

NickManziq, look around you.

you are in the 21st century, not in 1957.

You know what? most ppl (read non-malaysian) laugh here they hear about Bumiputra rights and the existance of vernacular system in malaysia.

this discriminatory policies promote a racist society. One proof, look at what happened in now. Nobody could even touch, or even poke a finger at Bumiputra rights and the existance of vernacular system in mainstream politics because ppl fear disturbing a so-called racial harmony. in my opinion, in order to achieve a real harmony, we need to address the issue directly and solve it instead of avoiding it.

avoiding the issue solves nothing. if we failed to address the issue and if luck is against us, May 13th looms somewhere in the near future

what malaysia should be striving for is harmony, not racial harmony. At the same time, political party should be non-racial instead of multiracial.

racially based policies as well as vernacular system are outdated and belong in the past, not in the 21st.

[phantom]

Prince,(yeah i mean you)



Tun Dr. Mahathir was right and courageous to admit that the special rights did not help the majority of the Malays, but in fact made them a laughing stock of the rest of the population. But what he failed to tell them was that in the pretext of special rights, he has allowed the "elite Malays" (called Mahathir's cronies by some) to gain lucractive government contracts and important positions.



by reading this,even a 7 year old boy could decide which political party you have crush on.for me it's your choice.respect that.what i have problem is the way you interpret the special right.

1) you mentioned that only the elite malays benefit from this callow principle and that the kampung malays are not.can you please explain me the cut off line between these two people.

look,special rights is not about giving contract to the malays alone,but range from uni-entrance,position rise to the Sultan teritory.In our perlembangan,they are 5 things which can be laws ONLY AND ONLY if the parliment receive the green light from Majlis Raja-raja.one of them is hak keistimewaan orang melayu.others are like sempadan and kuasa raja and to a name a few.

so these special rights are not goverened by the so-called UMNO alone,it still receive awareness from the Majlis Raja-raja.

you said that only the malay elites benefit from this special right.but what about someone from kampung with 3A's who got into matriculation when someone with 7A's from urban area couldnt?read utusan.in this sense,i believe you hold to wrong facts and hence jumps to small-minded conclusions.

i think you are too TAKSUB with the party you support that you even blame special right as the baits used by UMNO to fish the malay votes.

since you are too TAKSUB with your political affliations,you start to use callow points to justify it.

point to me in BN current manifesto whether the BN said to the malays "by voting us,hak keistimewaan melayu will be hold"..

indeed,it is an UMNO man who is braved enough to say.."the chinese can be a malaysian PM"...and how was the reactions from PAS/Keadilan? they make a huge scene out of it....PAS said,this is malay land and ergo only a Malay has the right to be one.Keadilan reacts by saying,this stupid man has bid our dignity for political gains.

so you are telling me that UMNO is here to protect the malay special rights and ergo using that to attract voters?i think you are lying.read:lying...i think you are another malay young man who speak fluently about malaysia politics inside a kedai kopi but failed to open your eyes wide.i guess you are like other malays who at 1st against the war to Iraq but later called Saddam as a dictator. another malay who doesnt digest the maxim.."action speaks louder than word".

okay let say an opposition party like PAS rules our nation,will this opposition party give equal right to all malays or will they crack special rights to the malay-muslims alone and IGNORING the indian-muslims,chinese-muslims and the arab-muslims?

is it weird,one of the major reason some malays vote for PAS is becoz they used "negara islam" as their ultimate purpose...their fancy way of telling the malays to vote for them..

look,i'm not accusing you as a pas supporters or a keadilan fan,but what i am trying to pinpoint is,even if you dont agree with UMNO,dont jump to conclusions that only those UMNO cronies received the projects.sure some cases may be truth.but overall,the special rights has helped the kampung malays to be the elite malays too.

i remember someone like you said,the gov implements 400% tax on import car so that proton can survive.he said,this is so that THE MALAY CRONIES can live good life.MALAY CRONIES,NEPOTISME--> IS LIKE THE WAR ON TERROR,TERRORIST USED BY USA NOW.

BOTH USED THE POWER OF LANGUAGE AS THE MAIN WEAPON.

if you think only the UMNO cronies are benefiting this,be with the non-malays,fight for this system to be abolished.dragged all the raja-raja from the palaces to normal life.

you know what will i receive for writing that phrase-->ISA for igniting sensitive issue.now the opposition parties wont support me,they will say i deserve it.


2) about JPA scholarship...this bother me alot.okay at 1st you said,only the elite malays get it,after that you said they were few malays from kampung who got it...

now you tell me,has jpa ever weigh anyone's demographic as the co-factor in deciding whether a malay should receive their scholarships or not?

go to INTEC,where are these malays mostly from,FROM KELANTAN AND TERENGGANU.these two states that dont even belong to the gov..now you'll argue that the gov did that so that these people will support the gov..another justification you created to cement your stand.even in the year 1985,my uncle said the malays from kelantan and t'ganu represent huge sum at any preparatory college.though they didnt deserve it based solely on their results.even a person with pangkat 2 got it!!

look,most of the malays who attained jpa scholarships come from MRSM/SBP.these people later got the scholarship and though there are perhaps some malays who did well at uni-level,most breath 2.75 range cgpa.

did u also know that, it's easier for a kampung malay to enter SBP and receive scholarships?

back to jpa..

and you are telling me that JPA scholarship is only for the elite malays?

finally,you are entitle to your opinion but please,please dont inflame me with shallow thinking. dont tell me 9/11 is done by the jews like most malays are.dont tell me special rights are there for dr.M cronies coz i think just like malays reigining PAS,you dont know what you are speaking.


friday night=movie night

[__earth]

look,special rights is not about giving contract to the malays alone,but range from uni-entrance,position rise to the Sultan teritory.In our perlembangan,they are 5 things which can be laws ONLY AND ONLY if the parliment receive the green light from Majlis Raja-raja.one of them is hak keistimewaan orang melayu.others are like sempadan and kuasa raja and to a name a few.

you are forgeting one fact - dengan nasihat Perdana Menteri. the kings have not whatsoever power that you have said in real term.

point to me in BN current manifesto whether the BN said to the malays "by voting us,hak keistimewaan melayu will be hold"..

you need only to look at UMNO's constitution.

FASAL 3
ASAS DAN TUJUAN
UMNO adalah sebuah parti politik yang berjuang mendukung cita-cita kebangsaan Melayu demi mengekalkan maruh dan martabat bangsa, agama dan negara. 3.1 Mempertahankan kemerdekaan dan kedaulatan negara.

3.2 Mendukung dan mempertahankan Perlembagaan Negara, Perlembagaan Negeri-negeri dan Raja Berpelembagaan.

3.3 Menegak, mempertahan dan mengembangkan Islam, agama rasmi negara serta menghormati prinsip kebangsaan beragama.

3.4 Mempertahankan kedaulatan rakyat dan keadilan sosial dengan mengamalkan Sistem Pemerintahan Demokrasi Berparlimen serta memajukan ekonomi rakyat Melayu dan Bumiputera khasnya dan rakyat Malaysia amnya.

3.5 Menjamin kedudukan Bahasa Kebangsaan (Bahasa Melayu) sebagai bahasa rasmi yang tunggal dan Kebudayaan Kebangsaan yang berteraskan Kebudayaan Melayu.

3.6 Mewujudkan kerjasama antara kaum bagi melahirkan satu bangsa Malaysia yang kuat dan bersatu berasaskan kepada hak-hak Asasi Manusia dan Hak-Hak Istimewa Orang Melayu dan Bumiputera.

i suggest you read up the issue before making up claims/countering claims

and stop name calling. difference in opinion doesnt entitle you to call out names.

one further point

by reading this,even a 7 year old boy could decide which political party you have crush on.for me it's your choice.respect that.what i have problem is the way you interpret the special right.


realize this - it doesnt take an allegiance to a party to have opinion on an issue. unfortunately in malaysia, many ppl need to realize that.

[phantom]

yeah2..i know i am wrong..actually i was so inflame reading prince's comments...actually he has the right to speak his mind..but look,just like the proton's example..i think he need to start to look matter in a outer way...dont tell me e'thing gov did is for the their cronies..including KLCC,twin-towers,putrajaya,the 100 mill palace...the penang bridge..

the problem is if you think someone as nasty,regardless of how great he may be,he will still be nasty to you...it's like jane elliot experiment on the kids...tell the kids,brown eyes people are bad,the kids believe that and implement it regardless how untruth it may be..

again sorry for jumping out from no-where..hope didnt hurt anyone's feeling..if it did,chori2...especially you mr.prince..

yeah2..i know i am wrong..actually i was so inflame reading prince's comments...

When you're emotional, it's hard to analyze reasons rationally. Try giving my posts (I think 3 of them) a thorough read when you're more calm. And do some research on the stuff that I mentioned in my posts.

If you find any counterexamples, do tell me. But read it carefully first. For instance, I did not claim that the kampung Malays did not benefit at all from the special rights, rather the benefit they got is small in comparison to the benefits enjoyed by the elite, more wealthy Malays.

It's easy for a 7-year old to know which political party I support? Well, the 7-year old and you are wrong. I neither support nor am affliated to Keadilan or PAS. In fact, due to my race, I have not benefited from the bumiputra special rights at all.

[Thirdshifter]

I understand what your trying to say about PAS, heck as a Muslim myself i think Having religious bodies such as Jabatan Agama Islam Wilayah persekuatuan is already a bad idea.

Why do you think like that, Third? Mind to explain. I thought JAI preserve and regulate the Islamic law to make sure Muslims are faithful and following the Islam teaching. So I think it is an important government body.


Yeah, i forgot Muslims in Malaysia need some police going around to make sure they're not having sex, Or at least a blowjob. After all its hard control those hormones especially at a very young age. So i guess it is important.

On a more serious note; Having a religious body directly attached to the Goverment means more tax ringgit spent on BS.

Also, in the constitution (if it actually means anything), All Malaysians are guaranteed the freedom to chose their religion. So having a religious police telling you what to do is basically, Well you guessed it. Unconstitutional.

I personally think, it is a waste of resource. Since Islam itself has few dominant Sect i think policing only one of them is unfair.

Maybe BN should create a few new bodies.
Jabatan Agama Kristian Wilayah persekutuan. What about Jabatan Buddha? Hindu?

They all pay taxes too.

[topdog]

i have a question. are orang asli (regardless of religion) getting anything from special rights?

[Thirdshifter]

i have a question. are orang asli (regardless of religion) getting anything from special rights?

If they are in the bumipetera brackets then yes. Also, recently UMNO has opened its door to all orang Asli (regardless of their religion) as their new policy is to defend and uphold the rights of bumiputeras.

The portugese Community in Malacca is also now granted the rights of bumiputera and is welcomed to join UMNO.

I wonder when the incompetent MIC/MCA/Gerakan leaders would actually fight for chinese rights.

For those of you have always used the BN is the less of 4 evils. I say shame on you. It's a weak excuse.

Malaysia is a democracy, use it. Start a new party.

Just don't let your leaders join the coalition of BN. :D

I think the main reason keadilan and Dap had teamed up with PAS was to avoid any split votes.

Opposition have a better chance of winning.

[__earth]

Opposition have a better chance of winning.

perhaps you didn't remember the result of the last election.

[Thirdshifter]

Opposition have a better chance of winning.

perhaps you didn't remember the result of the last election.

The Marriage worked out on the 1999 election. But after 5 years of propaganda by the BN, the marriage was considered by many as a Marriage to PAS rather then a unity among oppositions.

[z]

lim kit siang and karpal singh won this time right?

[__earth]

Opposition have a better chance of winning.

perhaps you didn't remember the result of the last election.

The Marriage worked out on the 1999 election. But after 5 years of propaganda by the BN, the marriage was considered by many as a Marriage to PAS rather then a unity among oppositions.

therefore, you meant, they had a better chance?

and actually, DAP gained more seat this time around than it had in 1999. plus,
lim kit siang and karpal singh won this time right?

in any case, where are are you leading to?

[Thirdshifter]

in any case, where are are you leading to?

I was just replying to the numerous claims of Non_malay Poster that BN gets their votes because its the lesser evil.

Start a new party was my reply. Maybe i should.

[NickManziq]

NickManziq, look around you.

you are in the 21st century, not in 1957.

You know what? most ppl (read non-malaysian) laugh here they hear about Bumiputra rights and the existance of vernacular system in malaysia.



we are in the 21st century?? no sh*t!!
i just think that if we want to move forward, we should think about the past as well. we should know the root of this problem, why it happened, etc

if non malaysians laugh at the special rights, what can i say. they dont understand the sytem. maybe they do not know it, but they do it in their countries as well, indirectly. eg, only certain percentage of non-americans (and that includes asian american) can be admitted to colleges. they do not have their special rights written black and white, like us m'sian

i know that some people, even the malays, think that the special rights should be abolished. well, last time i checked, the malays are still the majority in m'sia and i do believe that most malays are furious about special rights being questioned by others. yeah, this is the 21st century but racism still exist. people might be nice to each other but deep inside their hearts, they still hate the other race(s). questioning the special rights would only lead to disaster and history might repeated itself. the tragedy of may 13th would happened again.

maybe my opinion is not the majority opinion. but what is the point discussing it in here? it would only be a debateless issue. not all m'sians are members in this site and certainly we dont know the majority opinion out there.

the non-malays/bumis can speak out their mind but if they push it over the limit, they would only face dire consequences. it's hard to swallow but that's the fact.

[yekban81]

therefore, you meant, they had a better chance?

and actually, DAP gained more seat this time around than it had in 1999.

Perhaps BA will win more seats in the general election 1999 only if PAs is not part of it. Large number of votes especially from chinese had been gone to BN due to PAS version of ISlamic State.

Back to the topic, I agree with NickManziq to some extents. We never want to see the tragedy of 13rd May to occur in future. We need to look back to the past and study the root cause of any problems. One question, do you really know what are the rootcauses of 13rd May? From what I have been told by the older generations, DAP was treated very unfairly during the past election which resulted in tragedy. Forgive for my ignorance. People then decided not to vote DAP so that to avoid another tragedy out of fear. Even until now, my parents and my friend's parents always ask us to stay away from street whenever general election comes..this sounds ridiculous to me actually.

Yes, we should not question the special rights as promised by the past generation. However, feeling of dissatisfaction arise due to the fact of unfairness in the special right use not only to the non malays but to the malays themselves too. We need to do research on what Prince and others has bring out about the misuse of special rights.

Bear in mind that special rights are not only about giving priority of education (scholarship, university admission...)and business opportunity to bumis and we are debating on these two aspects.

maybe they do not know it, but they do it in their countries as well, indirectly. eg, only certain percentage of non-americans (and that includes asian american) can be admitted to colleges. they do not have their special rights written black and white, like us m'sian


Mind telling us which reasonably well-known (say the top 100) American college have quotas for Asian-Americans (or any other racial American group for that matter)? Before making assertions, do your research!

[wwhong]

hmm...talking about college admission policy, i do know that in michigan, black people will be given extra 20 points in their admission application. results of affirmative action i guess. as usual, some blacks like the idea and some don't just like the case in m'sia. for those who do, they feel that since they had been "bullied" for decades, they should take something back and for those who don't, they think that is an insult to their abilitiies. either side has their argument and hard to judge who's right or wrong. and then, some white people protested and said they were being discriminated in the admission process. well, i guess race issue will forever be a problem everywhere in the world.

[topdog]

i know that some people, even the malays, think that the special rights should be abolished. well, last time i checked, the malays are still the majority in m'sia and i do believe that most malays are furious about special rights being questioned by others. yeah, this is the 21st century but racism still exist. people might be nice to each other but deep inside their hearts, they still hate the other race(s). questioning the special rights would only lead to disaster and history might repeated itself. the tragedy of may 13th would happened again.

i don't think anyone here seriously thinks that malay special rights could be abolished, at least not in our lifetime. it's written into the constitution. (not that the constitution has never been changed before, but i digress.) a lot of people here may complain and object and criticize, but in the end we all know it will still be there, unless malaysian society - not just online ones - undergoes a major paradigm shift.

what i personally hope will happen from all this "pointless" debate is for people to seriously think about how special rights are being used.

since we are all educated people here, liberalized konon, i am sure we can talk about this without creating a racial riot right?

as you said, nickmanziq, there are malays who are against special rights. maybe you could consider the rationale behind their thinking, instead of just pushing the matter aside. no need for any physical action. just try to think beyond what we have come to accept as the norm.

[DecentMerson]

maybe they do not know it, but they do it in their countries as well, indirectly. eg, only certain percentage of non-americans (and that includes asian american) can be admitted to colleges. they do not have their special rights written black and white, like us m'sian


Mind telling us which reasonably well-known (say the top 100) American college have quotas for Asian-Americans (or any other racial American group for that matter)? Before making assertions, do your research!

i agree with prince... the percentage of ethical groups (minorities) in Ivy League are higher then the percentage of population in US...

[ElansarGelmir]

I dun think special rights will spur a very heated issue if other 'unspecial' people get their fair share too. I've a few friends who got rejected from JPA scholarships even though their results are almost the same as mine. His co-curriculum activities are quite good though. In fact, he's an all rounder. Just because instead of getting straight A1s, he got an A2, his application was rejected (due to some skin issue).

Yeah, bumiputras should have special rights, but at least treat others equal as well. After all, don't you guys always emphasize on equality? Give others what they deserve. Many of my friends are disheartened due to this right...

[__earth]

i agree with prince... the percentage of ethical groups (minorities) in Ivy League are higher then the percentage of population in US...

are you sure about that? :D

maybe they do not know it, but they do it in their countries as well, indirectly. eg, only certain percentage of non-americans (and that includes asian american) can be admitted to colleges. they do not have their special rights written black and white, like us m'sian

that's not true. they have a minimun percentage, not maximum percentage. even then, only a handful colleges practice this, not the majority. in fact, michigan practices this and it receives a slap from the americans.

just think that if we want to move forward, we should think about the past as well. we should know the root of this problem, why it happened, etc

yes, of course we should learn from history. but if we are learning from history, aren't we supposed to eliminate the risk of may 13th instead of avoiding and delaying another May 13th?

[DecentMerson]

i agree with prince... the percentage of ethical groups (minorities) in Ivy League are higher then the percentage of population in US...

are you sure about that? :D



true for the case of Asian American....and international students...

sorry... my fault for not being specific....(B.S.) ... i mean if they are qualified....the quota(if there is one) is higher than the population percentage...(that's the trend I observe browsing thru the book by Baron's which talk about 200 Colleges in US....)

[Thirdshifter]

international students brings more money to the school thats all. If given a chance all schools in america would rather be 100% international so they could rake more money in.

[topdog]

international students brings more money to the school thats all.
but that's true only for public universities though, right? anyway, i think we've gone off topic.

[Thirdshifter]

international students brings more money to the school thats all.
but that's true only for public universities though, right? anyway, i think we've gone off topic.

I think so, Schools like harvard and Yale charge the same tuition fee to all students.
I think Michigan State has different rates for Local Students (instate), US student (out of state) and international students.

At UCONN, International students pay about 95% more on tuition fee compared to Local students.

Since the fee is going to be high at a public school. international studnt might as well go to an expensive school which would probably cost just an extra 2 grand.

[ElansarGelmir]

Hmm... I've some questions here ..... Well, in Islam (according to our ethics studies), everyone should be equal. in fact, according to the Ustazah and our materials, equality is the principe of Islam. There shouldn't be classes between people, rite?

So, if there's special right and the non bumis are treated as second class citizens, would that be called equal?

[jiinjoo]

Here's an echo of some of the sentiments on this forum. I wonder who the LSE guy is.

http://www.utusan.com.my/utusan/content.asp?y=2004&dt=0506&pub=Utusan_Malaysia&sec=Rencana&pg=re_04.htm

So we have the two fundamental assumption, i.e.

Equal rights myth
vs
Tanahair ownership myth

Assumption one is usually a modernist thinking - non-bumi obviously likes it better, but an incresing number of middle class bumis like it too (like some of us on this forum). The second one is a little bit frown upon, coz it's using some century old logic in today's country, but nevertheless an important one because it is one of the founding ideas of the country. History counts somewhat. We need to decide.


As to ElansarGelmir, I think there needs to be a distinction between what the literal Islam calls for, and what our constitution calls for. I wish I could say this, pardon me if it's not correct, but Islam is a religion, a form, a general way of life / running a country etc. (or in geek terms, an interface). Each instance of an Islamic state can choose to implement it differently, as long as they follow the general form. However, not all Islamic countries have the same circumstances, clearly the case our country.

So, equality is a principle, but not necessarily implemented if not desired. Well, we have to give in to the fact that people define the word "equal" differently from one another too don't you think so?

Yet another source is the syariah, which obvoiusly doesn't support equality between the believer and the non-believer. Read it up and you might just be surprised what some people have on their minds at home.

[misled_youth]

** Word of warning **

Special Branch is watching us.
________
DefinetStud live (http://camslivesexy.com/cam/DefinetStud)

[__earth]

** Word of warning **

Special Branch is watching us.

let's all apply for the green card lottery and get the SB off our ass.

[jiinjoo]

** Word of warning **

Special Branch is watching us.

Yeah, sure. especially me, now that google places the Malaysiakini article as the 4th search result after my homepages. I'm doomed. And I lost the green card lottery twice. Help! :)

[morpheous]

presently,there are some nice articles discussing bumiputra's special rights at malaysiakini

Malaysiakini website (http://www.malaysiakini.com)
i am posting these two sample articles...


Equal rights on equal grounds

Zafer Hashim
2:27pm Fri Apr 30th, 2004

I read with interest the view points of letters on the issue of special rights of bumiputeras. In most of these letters these rights were pointed out as Malay special rights, not recognising that many bumiputeras, who are not Malays nor Muslims, also benefitted from its implementation.

One writer mentions that many non-Malays may move to another country that practices equal rights. I have yet to come across any developed country that truly practices equal rights for all its citizens of different faith and ethnicity.

Most merely say equal rights in form, but not in function. If we look at Asian migrants in developed countries, most tend to live within their own communities and prosper through family-owned businesses. Even amongst those who are highly educated, very few make it into the top echelons of large national or multinational enterprises.

In many cases their children and grandchildren find that to succeed in these societies, they have to assimilate and give up their cultural heritage and mother tongue. And let's not even think about them having much political say in that ?country of equal rights.?

Malaysia is a very tolerant country in which citizens of various faith and ethnicity can succeed and prosper with their identities intact. More than two-thirds of the country's prosperity still goes to the non-Malays, who make up less than half of the population. We are even the largest pig farming country in Asia, outside of mainland China.

TA Loh was right in saying that the pertinent issue here is that these special rights have been abused. The intention of special rights should be to raise the level of education and prosperity among the numerous poor bumiputeras in this country.

That it has not done so in all these years in not that such affirmative action is doomed to fail but that vested interests do not implement it as intended. This factor has made both the Malay and non-Malay unhappy with it - although for different reasons.

Fair and equitable distribution of the prosperity that we enjoy in this country will ensure that our peace and harmony survives. That would probably require a mindset shift within our society.

Once the various segments of society are at par with one another, meritocracy can be fully implemented. Free competition will only be fair competition when the participants can compete on equal ground.

and


Special position aims betrayed

LCH
3:40pm Fri May 14th, 2004

Zafer Hashim typifies many bumiputras who think they understand affirmative action and their so-called 'special rights'. However, more robust thinking reveals that they do not.

Hashim charges that no country practises genuine equal rights but here again he misses the point. The fact is that it is impossible to design any system to ensure absolute equality. This is what communism and other socialist systems tried to do.

When the Manchus conquered China, for example, they constituted a minority that was less developed than the Hans. However, they set up a system to favour themselves and succeeded in perpetuating their rule for centuries. Ultimately, however, the Manchus were assimilated into the Han culture as has happened elsewhere throughout history in Europe, Japan and elsewhere.

There is no system that will ensure equality in reality for the races. There are too many variables for such a system to be administratively possible. The fundamental reason to advocate equality of rights is the belief that it's the best way to ensure that all groups have a chance at equality. This does not imply equality in result.

The use of statistics to show which group earns less or has fewer jobs is political rather than scientific. This merely identifies the symptoms but not the disease.

Zafer Hashim is also wrong about immigrants in developed countries being unable to move beyond their own communities. Think of Andre Jung of Avon, Ajit Jain of Berkshire Hathaway, Stan O' Neal of Merrill Lynch, etc. My own friends and family in the US, England, Australia and even Japan are more upwardly mobile than many of my friends and family in Malaysia.

TA Loh is generous but not enlightened in viewing the issue as abuse of special rights. Inevitably, special rights will be abused because this is a blunt tool that can never be efficient. The more people benefit from it, the more it will be abused.

The real issue about special rights is how long we can afford for it to be abused before we have to remove it. This was the main point of argument by our founders.

Hashim is also incorrect if he thinks that there must be equal footing before equality of rights. There can never be equal footing - not even among people of the same race. The point of affirmative action is not equal footing but rather more to create a reasonable safeguard against not being excluded, i.e., marginalised.

Diversity is a strength and benefit to society and this must be the goal rather than equality. That is why the target of New Economic Policy (NEP) has always been 30 percent and not 50 percent or more. This is also why quotas are illegal as affirmative action in other countries.

Lastly, I wish to comment on historical inaccuracies about Malay rights.

The truth is that the Malays of this country partly owe their independence to the non-Malays. It is a historical fact that Tunku Abdul Rahman contacted Tan Cheng Lock soon after approaching the British about independence. The reason was that the British refused to give independence without an agreement from the non-Malays.

Given the leverage of the non-Malays, there was no reason to give up equal rights. Tunku himself was also known to have advised privately against 'special rights'. It was part of the reason that he threw out Dr Mahathir Mohamad from Umno and for his constant battle with the likes of Syed Hamid.

It is a shame that our history has been constantly twisted so that our younger generation has no understanding of Malaysia's foundation and its true aspirations. Zafer Hashim's comments testify that we have fallen away from our founders' goals.

[Thirdshifter]

morphoeus, thanks for sharing. What was written in those letters had aready beed said on this discussion.

I think most of us agree that however, who-ever that try to spin this special right issue would find it to be unfair and still fundementally wrong.

There's no but, or if. It's plain simple. Special rights for Bumiputera should be abolished. I honestly think we should get rid of it and see how Many Malays would actually cry.

[The_Observer]

No pain, No gain.

Its as simple as that.

If you take cover and expect to be given 'priorities'...you must be on drugs.
In certain countries, 'special rights'= dole (a.k.a. social welfare)

That is why it it very hard for us Malaysians to take our Government as a spokesperson for the people.

I wonder if our country would have been better of under a socialist (and I 'probably' don't mean communist) government...

PS: The ISA be damned.

[iQing]

^bump