Women rights in ISLAM!

[da-hype]

here's a url that explains women right in islam. For all you people that keep "assuming" or "don't know".... read it! There might be better websites out there... but this is what i found.

http://islampalace.150m.com/women01.htm

[sanghanuman]

You look at me and call me oppressed,
?Simply because of the way I'm dressed,
?You know me not for what's inside,
?You judge the clothing I wear with pride,
?My body's not for your eyes to hold,
?You must speak to my mind, not my feminine mold,?
I'm an individual, I'm not mans slave,
?It's Allahs pleasure that I only crave,
?I have a voice so I will be heard,
?For in my heart I carry His word,
?" O ye women, wrap close your cloak,
?So you won't be bothered by ignorant folk",
?Man doesn't tell me to dress this way,
?It's a Law from God that I obey,
?Oppressed is something I'm truly NOT,
?For liberation is what I've got,
?It was given to me many years ago,
?With the right to prosper, the right to grow,
?I can climb moutains or cross the seas,
?Expand my mind in all degrees,
?For God Himself gave us LIB-ER-TY,
?When He sent Islam,
?To You and Me!


This is exactly the problem with the misunderstandings that people have against women in Islam. Some people just do not understand that it is not men that cause Muslim women to pakai tudung. Men are the reason for it, but the order comes from Allah, and not men. However, there are a number of men who act like "enforcers" for this law (like father to daughter, husband to wife), and people take this as "oppression".

This concept, if it is not understood well, can lead to more conflict of interests among us. For example, in France, the laicit? law has been passed to let no one express his/her belief in public places. No Muslim women can cover herself, no Christians can wear a cross pendant, and this law also affects Sikh men.

Schemla, a famous French magazine editor who apparently buddy-buddy with President Chiraq gave a talk here in my school on this law last week. She tries to explain why France decided to pass this law. While I understand that France is facing a great danger of terrorism because of fundamentalism among a number of her own citizens, laicit? law is not the answer for this problem. The laicit? law attacks not the real male fundamentalists, but the women who have neither participate in terror attacks, nor have any choice whether to wear or not to wear hijab( tudung) in Islam.

By enforcing this law, I personally think that women will start being angry to the situation that denies their freedom to obey God and they will start to join the fundamentalist organizations. At this point, women will not only be used by the destructive thoughts of fundamentalism, but also will cause more problems for the government (of France).

I take Schemla as a representative of France for the law and from what I heard from her, I can conclude that France still does not understand the real problem and the complexity of events that shall follow. They see hijab as political, and that is wrong. Although I think that the laicit? law is not s good solution for this problem, I myself could not think of a good one to suggest to France.

[Thirdshifter]

bah, French are trying to hard holding to their ultra secularism. What they did was simply limiting their own freedom of expression. French is the equivalent of Taliban in the Secular world.

In Islam it ask its follower to enforce the Codes on those who profess belief. I would've been long stoned to death in a true Islam society to be honest.

Some muslims justify their disbeleief in many ways, here is an example:

"According to the Quran, I'm guaranteed to hell. All i did was have sex"

I don't beleive i'm going to hell because i'm not wearing a tudung"

these are 2 of the most used excuse by Muslims. I hope to see them in hell. If what i read in the Quran is the absulute truth (according to th Quran, it is)

I think i'll be there. I could almost guarantee it :D

[topdog]

just curious, is there a concept of purgatory in islam? as a catholic i'm probably shooting for that...percentage admitted should be higher than heaven:D

what do you guys think about turkey? actually, what form of islam do they practise, sunnah or shiah?

i think they ban headscarves from parliament or something like that right? any thoughts on this?

[sanghanuman]

No, there is no purgatory in Islam. Similar concept might be the shafaat from the Prophet, which is like bonus points given to anybody who remembers the Prophet anytime during his/her life. The more one remembers the Prophet/wishes the Prophet well, the more shafaat one will get.

[Thirdshifter]

just curious, is there a concept of purgatory in islam? as a catholic i'm probably shooting for that...percentage admitted should be higher than heaven:D

what do you guys think about turkey? actually, what form of islam do they practise, sunnah or shiah?

i think they ban headscarves from parliament or something like that right? any thoughts on this?

Turkey is basically divided into 3 major groups. The people from Istanbul (secular) Ankara (Islamic) and the Kurds.

Right now i beleive turkish leading party is an Islam Party. Most of the banning on headscarf is more of a thing on papaer then is actually enforce.

I think turkey is trying to hard to convince europe that they are not hardcore islamic fundamentalist like the Ottomans.

[__earth]

what do you guys think about turkey? actually, what form of islam do they practise, sunnah or shiah?

turkey practices sunni. mainly, only Muslims in Iran and some part of Iraq that practice Shia.

[Diesel]

unfortunately there are strongly influenced by Mustafa Kamal Ataturk.

[topdog]

unfortunately there are strongly influenced by Mustafa Kamal Ataturk.
why unfortunately?

[Thirdshifter]

unfortunately there are strongly influenced by Mustafa Kamal Ataturk.

I think kamal ataturk was great. I think he was way ahead of his time. I like the part when he said Allah is just an Arabic name for God. Which is absolutely true. God is God.

When in Malaysia we like to think "tiada tuhan selain Allah" It should be "Tiada tuhan selain tuhan"

[violet1403]

unfortunately there are strongly influenced by Mustafa Kamal Ataturk.

I think kamal ataturk was great. I think he was way ahead of his time. I like the part when he said Allah is just an Arabic name for God. Which is absolutely true. God is God.

Because he said that Allah is an arabic name for God than he is great?
Anyway, do you know what else he did to be considered "great"?

[Thirdshifter]

unfortunately there are strongly influenced by Mustafa Kamal Ataturk.

I think kamal ataturk was great. I think he was way ahead of his time. I like the part when he said Allah is just an Arabic name for God. Which is absolutely true. God is God.

Because he said that Allah is an arabic name for God than he is great?
Anyway, do you know what else he did to be considered "great"?

Because he actually admited that Islam, the version being practiced by the majority is backward and incompatible with today.

Many PAS politicians once called Mahathir "Malaysians Kamal ataturk" simply ecause he was revolutionary when it comes to Islam? I think Kamal ataturk contribute a lot to the turkish modernazation so i respect that.

so why does most muslim consider him to be the Enemy?

[Diesel]

Pro Mahathir source
http://www.drmahathirmohamad.com/news/0113.htm

Other sources
http://beautifulislam.net/articles/kamal_ataturk.htm
http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/History/ataturk.htm


Pro Mustafa
http://www.turizm.net/turkey/history/ataturk.html
http://www.allaboutturkey.com/ataturk.htm


I haven't seen any defense of what mustafa did by the book (Koran). Tell, me if you find one.

[violet1403]

He is considered the "enemy" because he claimed that Islam is the cause for their backwardness, and he "remove" Islam from the Turks.

Islam supports modernisation by all means. That is why Islam encourage people to seek knowledge and keep on improving our life. Kamal Attarturk gave a completely different definition of what Islam actually is. And that is why he was regarded as the "enemy".

[Thirdshifter]

He is considered the "enemy" because he claimed that Islam is the cause for their backwardness, and he "remove" Islam from the Turks.

Islam supports modernisation by all means. That is why Islam encourage people to seek knowledge and keep on improving our life. Kamal Attarturk gave a completely different definition of what Islam actually is. And that is why he was regarded as the "enemy".

He was regarded by the Backward Arab as the enemy. In my book, Kamal although not a saint paved democracy in turkey. He created the first Secular Islam State. He also is responsible for most of what Malaysia is trying to be. Islam and modern.

The arabs accused him of being the enemy of Islam simply because he was outstanding when it comes to critisizing the Arab Muslims. The arabs, until today regard Islam as theirs not People who practise it.

If anything Kamal did wrong forcifully removing the Headscarf wore by women (which he later admit as being at fault).

This Man also Opened a lot of Muslims eyes. he was branded the enemey simply because the Kings in the arab world feared that their people would revolt and dethrone them. The "enemy" was a propaganda. Far cry from the truth. He was a leader who looked beyond religion.

[violet1403]

From what I read, he didnt have a very good personality as well.
But well, I dont know where can i find the most objective source of facts about him. The pros will always says the good thing and the cons vice versa.

But all I know is, you are not supposed to translate Al-Quran to your own language!

[el_empty]

i guess one way to look at it is that mustafa's turkey today is not a fundamentalist one. and that in itself i consider a success.

[oxherd]

Some people just do not understand that it is not men that cause Muslim women to pakai tudung. Men are the reason for it, but the order comes from Allah, and not men. However, there are a number of men who act like "enforcers" for this law (like father to daughter, husband to wife), and people take this as "oppression".


While I do very much agree with the assessment that veil decision in France is rather stupid and will only cause more problems rather than solve existing ones, I think that some of the Muslim viewpoints that the hijab isn?t really mandatory for Muslim women needs to be given some consideration.

http://www.muslimwakeup.com/mainarchive/000541.php


Putting aside the case that can be made that France is interfering in religious freedom, the not-oft repeated truth is that many Muslim scholars do not think the headscarf is mandatory in the first place. Sticking strictly to the Qur?anic text and the hadith (sayings of the Prophet Muhammad), the Qur?anic verse most frequently pointed to tells women to pull a covering over their bosom, since women in 7th century Arabia were known to have worn outfits that exposed their chests. The second doctrine most frequently used to justify hijab is a hadith in which the Prophet Muhammad is reported to have said that women were to cover all parts of their bodies except for their faces and hands. The isnad, however, or chain of transmission by which most hadith is evaluated (a methodology for analyzing hadith that is itself man-made) is in fact weak for this hadith, meaning that this saying can not be traced directly back to the mouth of the Prophet. A third justification for mandatory hijab argues that the preponderance of scholars have come to the conclusion that hijab is fard, or required. However, what is radical about Islam, and what makes it truly revolutionary, is precisely the fact that there is no authoritative clergy structure built into the faith. Translation: no man (and I use the word ?man? pointedly) is to stand in the way of a worshipper and her creator. Moreover, the majority of traditional scholars were men who lived and worked in a traditional, patriarchal milieu, and who were bound to incorporate the norms of their society and culture into their decision making.


What I believe she intimates in her last argument is also a concern raised by some ?progressive? Muslim scholars today: the neutrality or otherwise (i.e. influence from cultural norms, etc) of the role of the mujtahid (scholars) in performing interpretation of the texts (ijtihad) in the formulation of fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence), and the necessity (wajib) for the common lay Muslim to follow these interpretations without excessive questioning (taqlid).

Here?s another look at France?s veil crisis from a slightly different viewpoint:

http://www.muslimwakeup.com/mainarchive/000626.php

I think the debate over the hijab has become an unnecessary flashpoint that does not allow both parties to really think critically about the core issues at stake. When the Muslim world comes under siege with the association ?veil = female repression = Islam = terrorism?, it is natural human instinct to rally back and defend the mandatory veil wearing position unflinchingly. I believe this actually has a historical precendent in the case of Islam, when the invasion of the Mongols on the weakening Islamic empire resulted in the majority theologians rallying around a narrower and restricted corpus of interpretation.

BTW, I am not trying to support or oppose the wearing of the veil, just providing some thoughts on the issue.

[oxherd]

these are 2 of the most used excuse by Muslims. I hope to see them in hell. If what i read in the Quran is the absulute truth (according to th Quran, it is)

I think i'll be there. I could almost guarantee it :D

Actually, I thought the mainstream Islamic understanding is that only God can determine who goes to hell or otherwise. The last time I checked, George W. Bush seems to have a direct line to him. Maybe you can check with him to see whether you are blacklisted yet :)

[oxherd]

Actually the veil crisis had started a bit earlier closer to home, albeit in a less dramatic fashion.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/asia-pacific/1804470.stm

Any comments on why the Singapore Mufti went along with the govt decision ? Was it because of the oft-repeated observation that we from the East are more willing to acquiesce and compromise with authority than people in the West, who are generally more outspoken and willing to challenge authority ?

[Diesel]

that mufti is damn stupid. for what is education if one can practice it? in islamic education, tudung is a must for females. yet, they can't practice it. maybe the mufti doesnt think that islamic knowledge is an education too.

[ElansarGelmir]

that mufti is damn stupid. for what is education if one can practice it? in islamic education, tudung is a must for females. yet, they can't practice it. maybe the mufti doesnt think that islamic knowledge is an education too.

Come to think of it, the girls without tudungs are more pleasant to look at (my opinion again).

I think without the tudungs, the girls can do their PE easily. Serious, with shorts and T-shirts, and tudungless, they tend to run faster, play better in sports and etc. That's how they can enjoy the benefits of participating in sports. I think they are happy with it, coz they didn't complain anything about it.

[topdog]

in islamic education, tudung is a must for females. yet, they can't practice it.
pardon me if i'm mistaken, but i thought the tudung only becomes a must when the girl reaches puberty?

my personal opinion is that people should have a choice in this matter. i think for govts to ban religious garb in the name of secularism is just short-sighted. i just think it diverts attention away from the real issues at hand unnecessarily.

[ElansarGelmir]

Hmm... Even our beloved ex-PM's wife Dr Siti Hasmah don't usually wear tudungs or scarfs when appear in front of the media?

[__earth]

Hmm... Even our beloved ex-PM's wife Dr Siti Hasmah don't usually wear tudungs or scarfs when appear in front of the media?

elansar, please realize that there are ppl that don't subcribe to certain islamic teachings. you could call this liberalization/corruption of the religion depending on which side of the fence you stand.

but it is important to acknowledge that islamic tradition asks/demands/asserts/etc women to cover their aurat.

editted for typo

[Diesel]

in islamic education, tudung is a must for females. yet, they can't practice it.
pardon me if i'm mistaken, but i thought the tudung only becomes a must when the girl reaches puberty?
yes, that's true, sorry i didn't specify it.

that mufti is damn stupid. for what is education if one can practice it? in islamic education, tudung is a must for females. yet, they can't practice it. maybe the mufti doesnt think that islamic knowledge is an education too.

Come to think of it, the girls without tudungs are more pleasant to look at (my opinion again).

I think without the tudungs, the girls can do their PE easily. Serious, with shorts and T-shirts, and tudungless, they tend to run faster, play better in sports and etc. That's how they can enjoy the benefits of participating in sports. I think they are happy with it, coz they didn't complain anything about it.

tudung isn't just a symbol. It's a religious practice. so when a country restrict some religious practice, that aint right.

[ElansarGelmir]

However, i believe that certain religious practice are not really that feasible in our modern age now. In the Bible, women are encouraged to wear head covering during worship, but i think now not all are practising them. Dun really think it's a big sin, though.
I think in Islam, men are allowed to have more than 1 wife, right, if they get permission from their first wife? however, in Malaysia, I think there's this dept in Perlis or at Thai border there that allows men to marry with his second wife without the permission from his first wife coz they dun want them to go to Thai and get married there. Something like that. So, if it' not wrong to go against this doctrine, i think it's not that wrong if females do not wear head covering in schools. I mean, not everyone protested, right? only a few did that.

Hmmm... One more question to post here. What's the rational of men having more than 1 wife?

[Thirdshifter]

Elansar, The right to practice religion should not be obstruct. I'm pretty sure Muslim Women are required to cover their heads. If a Muslim Women chose not to then fine, nothing wrong with that but fundementally it is a requirement that she made the choice not to wear it, not by force or in this case by a law. Putting such law just made muslim womens with less choice. I think thats a discrimination agaisnt women in general.


I'm sure you won't be happy if the goverment makes a new rule that disallow any big incense 'gaharu' burning like those found infront of many chinese temple, No more Kawadi parade in Batu caves that obstuct the traffic? It is sad how many secular country are becoming an extremist in their own ways.

THe head covering doesn't harm anybody and should be a no issue.

[widagdo]

I fully agree with the last sentence.

[oxherd]

However, i believe that certain religious practice are not really that feasible in our modern age now. In the Bible, women are encouraged to wear head covering during worship, but i think now not all are practising them. Dun really think it's a big sin, though.

First, you are attempting a cross comparison between what is practiced in Christianity and Islam, which is highly inadvisable as these religions differ in many significant ways. Secondly, many Christians (not all though) believe that women should be subservient to men in the leadership of the church, i.e. women should not be allowed to become clergy or bishops. Do you believe that this is also feasible in our modern age ?


I think in Islam, men are allowed to have more than 1 wife, right, if they get permission from their first wife? however, in Malaysia, I think there's this dept in Perlis or at Thai border there that allows men to marry with his second wife without the permission from his first wife coz they dun want them to go to Thai and get married there.

If that is true, then they are in violation of the mainstream understanding of Islam with regards to polygamy.


Something like that. So, if it' not wrong to go against this doctrine, i think it's not that wrong if females do not wear head covering in schools. I mean, not everyone protested, right? only a few did that.

Yes but those were Muslims in Singapore, and you need to take into account the fact that their practical application and understanding of Islam might be different to Malaysian Muslims in some ways.


Hmmm... One more question to post here. What's the rational of men having more than 1 wife?

Here?s a short explanation on mainstream understanding of the issue:

http://islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=12490
http://www.submission.org/polygamy.html

Basically, polygamy existed BEFORE Islam (it was a common practice in the region), Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) DID NOT introduce or encourage the practice, but said that it could only be allowed under VERY specific conditions. The original context for its application was during the wars where the initial group of Muslims lost many men, and it made sense for remaining men to marry the widows of the victims in order to care for them under the cultural customs of that historical period.


The Quranic limitations against polygamy point out the possibility of abusing God's law. Therefore, unless we are absolutely sure that God's law will not be abused, we had better resist our lust and stay away from polygamy. If the circumstances do not dictate polygamy, we had better give our full attention to one wife and one set of children. The children's psychological and social well-being, especially in countries where polygamy is prohibited, almost invariably dictate monogamy. A few basic criteria must be observed in contemplating polygamy:
1. It must alleviate pain and suffering and not cause any pain or suffering.
2. If you have a young family, it is almost certain that polygamy is an abuse.
3. Polygamy to substitute a younger wife is an abuse of God's law (4:19).


Looking at this interpretation, I guess you could make the argument that many Muslim men in Malaysia who take extra wives have violated this criteria. There is an organization in Malaysia, Sisters in Islam, which is promoting awareness on this issue:

http://www.sistersinislam.org.my/publications/islamandpoligamy.htm

[oxherd]

here's a url that explains women right in islam. For all you people that keep "assuming" or "don't know".... read it! There might be better websites out there... but this is what i found.

http://islampalace.150m.com/women01.htm



In a Truly Islamic society women have the following rights in Islam:

1. The right and duty to obtain education.

2. The right to have their own independent property.

3. The right to work to earn money if they need it or want it.

4. Equality of reward for equal deeds.

5. The right to express their opinion and be heard.

6. The right to provisions from the husband for all her needs and more.

7. The right to negotiate marriage terms of her choice.

8. The right to obtain divorce from her husband, even on the grounds that she simply can't stand him. (please note that God deeply frowns upon divorce as a solution unless there is hardly any other alternative but it does not mean that men have more right to divorce their wives than women do.)

9. The right to keep all her own money (she is not responsible to maintain any relations).

10. The right to get sexual satisfaction from her husband.

11. custody of their children after divorce.

12. to refuse any marriage that does not please them.


Yet if we survey the situation of many Islamic countries in the Middle East, we see that this is clearly not the case for women there at the present moment:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3116136.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3130234.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3645551.stm

This region was once the cradle of the golden age of Islamic civilization, but it could be argued that social attitudes towards women have deteriorated very much since then. Any comments on this and how it may continue to affect the perception of Islam world-wide ?

[ElansarGelmir]

THe head covering doesn't harm anybody and should be a no issue.

Maybe you have a point there. Anyway, i have another questiona gain. What's the rational of women covering their head?

[oxherd]

THe head covering doesn't harm anybody and should be a no issue.

Maybe you have a point there. Anyway, i have another questiona gain. What's the rational of women covering their head?


It is primarily to do with protecting the modesty of the women, to ensure that they are not treated as sex objects by men. It is also considered an honour within Islam to the status of women.

http://www.islamonline.net/askaboutislam/display.asp?hquestionID=5718

However, there is controversy still regarding the extent of the coverage, for example, Malaysian women would generally cover their hair with a tudung while women in Saudi Arabia (with a more conservative interpretation of Islam ? Wahhabi) would have to wear a complete burqa (i.e. covering their face as well).

BTW, you can find all this information online, so maybe you should consider posting more indepth questions instead ?

[Thirdshifter]

THe head covering doesn't harm anybody and should be a no issue.

Maybe you have a point there. Anyway, i have another questiona gain. What's the rational of women covering their head?

Its a religious act. I can't give you a specific answer as it varies from individual to individuals. Its like your asking whats the rational of getting married by a priest in a church. Everyone has their own reason, correct?

[CyberJaya]

My friend wears the tudung because she doesnt like being stared at by other males. She says she doesnt want to get raped.

[misled_youth]

Hmm... this is out of the topic, but I think it's still interesting to share anyway.

Remember the PAS fatwa issued which said that the shaving of pubic hair among muslim women is considered haram?
________
SWEET4U (http://camslivesexy.com/cam/SWEET4U)

[Diesel]

Remember the PAS fatwa issued which said that the shaving of pubic hair among muslim women is considered haram?
I've never heard of that. where did you hear it from?

[sanghanuman]

A lot of people based their "concerns" towards Muslim women and tudung on "perceived problems" that are believed to cause trouble to Muslim women who wear tudung.

Example: Elansar Gelmir's women and sports. This is one of the "concerns" of French school teachers. They fear that Muslims girls will encounter accidents because of the head cover. See, as long as there is no REAL accident, I suggest that we stop assuming that it will happen, let alone to create a law to prevent "unreal", "perceived" problems.

Comfort is subjective. One person might feel comfortable wearing a short skirt, while others seek comfort through modesty.

The problem with the world is, we do not like secrecy. We believe that security can only be achieved through transparency.

[ElansarGelmir]

Example: Elansar Gelmir's women and sports.

Serious, my friends (muslim girls, 1 from Hindi, 1 from Pakistan, 1 from Middle East) said told me that it actually helps them to do sports more comfortable. If the tudung's not banned, their parents and ulamas (school teachers) would have them wear them during sports. That's why they told me that they were kinda glad about that... But they continue to wear head covering at home or during outings.

[topdog]

Elansar, i feel you should drop the matter already. what is your point?

i'm a catholic. according to catholic doctrine, i should not eat meat on fridays. i almost always eat meat on fridays.

according to catholic doctrine, i must go to mass every sunday. i sometimes don't.

do you see what i'm trying to say?

[ElansarGelmir]

Yeah, yeah, i got it. But i just want to tell you guys that not everyone disagrees with the tudung banning thing. That's all. Sorry if i had offended anyone. :wink:

[deekay]

Yo Top Dog,

Maybe you are right. Why follow all these trappings/rituals of religion in this present age. Most of these - Catholic, Muslim, Hindu, etc were probably borne out of FEAR by the people of that time in the past.

Maybe it is time to get beyond the fears of the past and look forward to a relationship with a Supreme Being without the shackles of what you must be, what you must wear, what you can eat, what you cannot eat, how you can do, what you cannot do.

I think religion over the centuries has just been politicised too much by the Jews, Romans, Spaniards, Portuguese, English, Arabs, Indians, Malaysians, etc.

[oxherd]

Why follow all these trappings/rituals of religion in this present age. Most of these - Catholic, Muslim, Hindu, etc were probably borne out of FEAR by the people of that time in the past.

While that might be an accepted sociological explanation for the origin of religion, I doubt you will get any religious people to accept that. Many people follow thier faith devoutly because it brings joy and meaning to their lifes, not because they are worried a diety will zap them with a thunderbolt if they don't.

Maybe it is time to get beyond the fears of the past and look forward to a relationship with a Supreme Being without the shackles of what you must be, what you must wear, what you can eat, what you cannot eat, how you can do, what you cannot do.

While I support your desire to start a new religion, maybe this is not exactly the right forum to do it in.

I think religion over the centuries has just been politicised too much by the Jews, Romans, Spaniards, Portuguese, English, Arabs, Indians, Malaysians, etc.

Organized religion and politics go hand in hand. Its inevitable. That doesn't however nullify inherent transcendental truths that each religion may embody.

[oxherd]

Example: Elansar Gelmir's women and sports.

Serious, my friends (muslim girls, 1 from Hindi, 1 from Pakistan, 1 from Middle East) said told me that it actually helps them to do sports more comfortable. If the tudung's not banned, their parents and ulamas (school teachers) would have them wear them during sports. That's why they told me that they were kinda glad about that... But they continue to wear head covering at home or during outings.

This point made me think about something I frequently read about, the clash between post-modernist values and traditional norms. As children, we are unlikely to identify completely with the various dressing and dietary rules of our respective faiths, and it is up to our parents to enforce this on us. In some situations (like the PE tudung example of Elansar), many children may truly not prefer to wear it.

When the state enters the equation by enforcing a ban, than many Muslims will complain, because in the bigger picture, they will see it as an assault on their religious value system. If today the tudung, then who knows what tomorrow ?

For Singapore, this might not be so much of an issue, since social norms of Muslims and non-Muslims are pretty conservative anyway. But in France, the disparity can be quite glaring between the conservative social norms of the large, immigrant Muslim populations and the liberal values of some parts of French society. The hijab becomes a symbol of that clash of value-systems.

But this clash is also happening with other communities as well, for example in the UK, private Christian schools are becoming more popular as many parents are worried about the inherent lack of moral direction in public schools.

[tunsrilanang]

my opinion:

no matter what religion a woman embrace, when she fights for her rights, most ppl will call her a feminist (a term which has not-so-pleasant reputation), when what she's doing is merely claiming her rightfully deserved rights which are taken away from her .

women and men are equal, but they play different roles in society. women must understand this, so that they won't make a fool of themselves by demanding foolish things (like why are they not many women cameraman (and blaming the men for the small number of women cameraman)? well the answer is simple because women either mostly want to become a model / singer / actor / housewife / teacher than taking a job that requires a lot of physical strength).

men too must understand that a woman is not supposed to be a housewife who has to do a lot of domestic chores like cooking, sewing, washing clothes, etc.
as outlined by either the Quran or sunnah or both, women (i mean wives) only need to take care of children and educate them. other domestic chores are to be done equally between man (husband) and woman (wife).

many oppression has been done to women, and sad to say, they come from stupid men (mind you, ONLY the stupid ones aka a**holes).

Islam has bestowed many rights to women, but in a corrupted society we live in, many women do not equip themselves with enough knowledge, same goes to men. women even allow themselves to be objectified by men ( in this case, who is to be blamed MORE if some rights are taken away from some of these women?)

moreover, the ones who are in charge of religious affairs are mostly men whom may be , will use his power to practice injustice to women. some of them (ulamas) may not even care if the women were treated kindly by her family/husband/society.

shame on women who dont equip themselves with the RIGHT knowledge, shame on men who dont equip themselves with RIGHT knowledge (by RIGHT, i mean knowledge that agrees with the quran and sunnah)

knowledgeable men and women breed knowledgeable generation and vice versa. knowledgeable men and women breed strong and stable society.

to everyone, fight for your rightfully deserved rights (rightfully deserved rights tau!).
i still remember in one of the friday prayers khutbah that i attended, the imam said nobody has the right to do wrong.
let's work on that everyone. keep reminding each other when mistake has been done.