Malaysia and its Defence Industry

[el_empty]

here are 2 articles that prefaces this discussion:

Malaysia signs arms deal
The Associated Press
Tuesday, April 13, 2004

http://www.iht.com/articles/514564.html

KUALA LUMPUR Malaysia has signed a deal with the Austrian gun maker Steyr-Mannlicher to manufacture its new assault rifle, a move that the government said advanced its plan to make the country a major supplier of military small arms....

what do you think of the fact that malaysia will now actively manufacture and supply military weapons for the region and parts of the world? at this point, malaysiakini is extensively discussing this topic through the letters to the editor.

think about it...


now that you've thought about it, read this article:

Defending the Lion city
Jan 14, 2003
http://www.littlespeck.com/content/security/CTrendsSecurity-030114.htm

what say you?

[SpRInG]

i think it isn't too wise... unless the government really have a lot of money to do so... there are a lot of other ways to spend money... why spend them on arms?

[__earth]

i think it isn't too wise... unless the government really have a lot of money to do so... there are a lot of other ways to spend money... why spend them on arms?

its not spending money. It is actually about making money.

[USSDefiantNX74205]

The early morning calm is suddenly shattered by the deafening screams of low-flying jets.

Seconds later, Kuantan air base is rocked by multiple explosions, followed by "secondaries" as Malaysia's air assets in aircraft shelters and revetments are obliterated.

Klaxons blaring, pilots are scrambled to whichever aircraft that are still air-worthy, but it's useless. The runways had been cratered.

In the ensuing confusion, reports start streaming in. It seems that this is not an isolated case.

Butterworth checks in and reports that its entire complement of F/A-18D Hornets are now smoking, twisted hulks out on the tarmac.

And the entire Third Division which has overall command over Johor and Malacca had also been annihilated.

Quoted directly from the 'Defending the Lion City' article. Obviously the author of that piece of bs thinks that invading a nation is something like the 'aliens launching attacks on helpless human airbases' stuff you usually see in Hollywood movies. Just to point out the huge flaw in his logic, let me ask you a question. If Singapore were to launch a simultaneous attack on Malaysian airbases in the peninsula, wouldn't their flights of 'low-flying jets' be detected long ago before they even reach Kuantan, let alone Butterworth? Even if they were to launch a surgical strike to take out our radar and long range detection systems in Johor, that act itself would have warranted the scrambling of Malaysian jets and the mobilization of the entire Malaysian army. So what strike on Kuantan and Butterworth are they even speculating about? I can't see them doing that from their small island home hundreds of kilometers away from these places unless they have aircraft carriers anchored off the coast (which of course, they don't).

Something else they have to remember too. In the event of an attack like this, their flights of fighter-bombers (most probably would be F-16s) would have been intercepted by our jets, MiG-29 fighters from Kuantan, which are officially classified as 'air superiority aircraft'. Their job is to take control of the skies, and that means they'll usually be armed to the teeth with anti-air ordinance as opposed to the bombs, guided air-to-ground (ATG) ordinance, and ATG missiles that the F-16s would be armed with. And to add to the advantage of the Malaysians, Singapore does not have any dedicated air superiority fighters. That means they probably won't have any dedicated escorts for their F-16s. And even if by a stroke of luck they manage to get through to the aforementioned airbases, we do have something called surface to air missiles (SAM). Many may not know this, but our SAMs are actually one of the best in the world - a modified variant of the British Rapier SAM that served so successfully in the Falklands and Gulf Wars and which is still in service in the British Army till today.

I'll leave the chances the Singaporeans have of obliterating our airbases for you to judge now...

The National Power Grid had not been spared, plunging the entire country in darkness, adding to the chaos and confusion.

Reports also indicated that the Ministry of Defence building in Jalan Padang Tembak, Kuala Lumpur, had been hit by at least six GBU-31 1,000-pound JDAMs (Joint Direct Attack Munitions).

Even the KLCC had been struck with such ferocity that only the Maxis Tower was left standing.

On Bukit Nanas, only a blackened stump is left of what used to be the Kuala Lumpur Tower.

While the military headquarters of the MAF would have been a valid and juicy target during a war, let me remind you of the same scenario as above. Can they destroy our airbases and military headquarters that are hundreds of miles apart at the same time? Do they even have the capability to do so?

And remember - striking the power grid and civilian buildings like the KLCC and KL Tower is strictly against international rules of war and engagement. Singapore's prolly gonna take a pretty huge beating at the UN for that. Maybe even an economic embargo or military action against them.

Down in Johor and Malacca, the situation is much worse. A torrent of armoured vehicles, including tanks, are hogging all the roads linking Johor Baru to Muar and Kota Tinggi, disgorging armed soldiers who took over all the towns.

Senai airport, captured in a pre-dawn attack was being used by the helicopters and planes taking part in the on-going offensive.

On the North-South Expressway, main battle tanks and armoured fighting vehicles together with towed artillery with fighter jets and attack helicopters providing close support were going north, destination unknown.

Reports of troops landing from helicopters were coming in from all over Johor, from Mersing to Muar.

By noon, Johoreans find themselves under Singapore military rule.

This is the only part that may be true in the entire article. The Singaporean Army relies upon an old German WWII tactic called Blitzkrieg or 'lightning war'. This tactic, in priciple at least, aims to make as big a blow at the enemy as possible by means of superior arms and surprise. This would've probably left the entire Johor in enemy hands in very little time, but that's about as far as they can go. Occupation of Johor would take a lot of resources that would have to be diverted from the invading army. Maybe they can spare some units to go on the offensive, but by then too the whole MAF would be mobilized. They'd be facing stiffer and more organized resistance after that.

Singapore may have a technologically more advanced army, but fighting will come to a standstill in a few months. After that, industry and natural resources come into play - and Malaysia has an advantage in both. We have the capability to replace our lost units through industry and raw materials. Singapore may have the industrial capability, but not the raw materials needed.

So what would be the result of a war between Singapore and Malaysia? I predict a win for Malaysia, though it may take months or even years of hard fighting that will drain Singapore of its available resources. The MAF maybe inferior in many respects, but history has shown that numbers, resources and industry do count towards victory, as shown by the Soviet Union in WWII. A war would leave Singapore dead, defeated and invaded, but Malaysia would be bleeding from head to toe at the end of it too.

And don't even get me started on troop morale and the respective navies of Singapore and Malaysia...it'll be quite a long story. Bottomline: I disagree with what the author has to say. Just too many loopholes for my liking.

[__earth]

While the military headquarters of the MAF would have been a valid and juicy target during a war, let me remind you of the same scenario as above. Can they destroy our airbases and military headquarters that are hundreds of miles apart at the same time? Do they even have the capability to do so?


You might want to read on how Israel defeated Egypt. Egypt, then had the most powerful military in the mideast and it was defeated by Israel by the same way.

Here's for starter -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

So what would be the result of a war between Singapore and Malaysia? I predict a win for Malaysia, though it may take months or even years of hard fighting that will drain Singapore of its available resources. The MAF maybe inferior in many respects, but history has shown that numbers, resources and industry do count towards victory, as shown by the Soviet Union in WWII. A war would leave Singapore dead, defeated and invaded, but Malaysia would be bleeding from head to toe at the end of it too.

Malaysia is no USSR during the WWII nor Iran during the Iran-Iraq War. Malaysian Royal Armed Force is about as large as Singapore's despite Malaysia having a greater population by a few hundreds percent.

About who would win, don't be too confident of our Armed Force. It could go either way, depending who got the first strike and who made the first mistake.

This is the only part that may be true in the entire article. The Singaporean Army relies upon an old German WWII tactic called Blitzkrieg or 'lightning war'. This tactic, in priciple at least, aims to make as big a blow at the enemy as possible by means of superior arms and surprise. This would've probably left the entire Johor in enemy hands in very little time, but that's about as far as they can go. Occupation of Johor would take a lot of resources that would have to be diverted from the invading army. Maybe they can spare some units to go on the offensive, but by then too the whole MAF would be mobilized. They'd be facing stiffer and more organized resistance after that.

The Nazi's defeat was caused by Hitler's madness that directed personally to his Generals to overstrech the then-Nazi Germany force. And blitzkrieg back then was done mainly by panzers. Singapore on the otherhand, won't possibly face the problem of overstretching. There is actually just one front, north - assuming if Singapore wanted to invade Malaysia and provided there is no other outside war-participant-wannabe.

Judging from history, I disagree with your disagreement. The possibility of a Singapore's victory is there.

[Diesel]

i think it isn't too wise... unless the government really have a lot of money to do so... there are a lot of other ways to spend money... why spend them on arms?

dude, my brother was in the armed forces. he told me that our equipments are so last century. the govt prefers to spend more money on other things than improving our defense. sure we hate wars. but we can always get invaded. come on, if you are really wealthy, you surely want better security right?

p/s: in this age, our forces dont die in battlefield, they die because their nuri's, the damn obsolete chopper crash.

[topdog]

upgrading our armed forces is a necessity... no offense, but it's naive to think that wars will never ever reach our shores...and IF another country tries to invade us, are we gonna all sit and pray?

i also think singapore can defeat us without much of a problem.

about the arms manufacturing deal...not enough details, so no comment.

[orestes]

well malaysia is bolstering its defence these past few years... check out this article:-

http://www.ips.org/asiaamerica/briefingroom/security/malaysia1.html

[aquila]

I hate how the article is belligerent on all fronts. Seriously, would Malaysia want to invade Singapore and vice versa? I'm from Johor, OK and I think almost everyone here has at least one relative in Spore, thank you very much tak kira you cina, melayu or india.

OK, because of sporean investments in johor, most johoreans are better off than their other msian counterparts... that's why you see johor is a stronghold for umno, especially in the 9 daerahs... in the pedalamans. ehhh, I've seen PAS territories too...

my revolutionary malay friends were all talking abt anwar and keadlilan... i don't think any one of them was going for PAS (of coures, this is a biased view since my friends are from the city and relatively better off)

i think sporeans definitely see us as a threat... their govt has instiled that attitude in their ppl... i mean my sporean friends oftimes talk about how msia is oppressing them with the water issue (screw them, muahahah)

i definitely see spore as a huge trading partner... my mom's company transports stuff from msia to spore all the time so i know how busy the bridge is..

[topdog]

i wonder which is seen as the bigger threat by sporeans; water supply, or terrorism? wonder how their jamban juice program is going along.

[orestes]

lol... jamban juice... besides, malaysia should know better than to go to war against Singapore... cari nahas only...

[jiinjoo]

jamban juice
That's a great one! :) especially since I just got my jamba huice gift card :) :)

thanks __earth for the six days war link - never read in such detail about this event.

water of terrorism - of course water :P You know that for terrorism to survive in s'pore they need to drink water right.

in fact, try asking your singaporean friends about this, some may tell you more detail: it is true that the entire army of s'pore is ready to take over Johor if the water supply is cut. a preemptive strike will happen, possibly just enough to secure sufficient water sources, before coming back to the discussion table to renegotiate terms.

but don't worry lar, the same author (who is a columnist on our Star paper btw) also lament many times on the "bo chap" (don't care) attitude down south. Maybe when that happens, the people will expect their gahmen to get the water back for them while they continue to watch tv. :) :)

[Randomphantom]

A strike on Malaysia by Singapore and viceversa? Highly unlikely. What do they gain out of it... sky juice instead of jamban juice :D :D ...although with US on their side and citizens with military knowhow we might lose. But their tiny red dot should go down easily too.

Anyway, we do need to prepare for any eventualities. U know how kia-su singaporeans are =p

Six day war... wonder what they did on the 7th day... rested? Very coincidental...(Christians know what I mean)

[ElansarGelmir]

IMHO, Tim Huxley's "masterpiece" is just an instrument to stir things up in the ASEAN region... Yeah, Singapore's army is powerful (every citizen has gone through NS for 2 years), and compared to Malaysia's, our weapons are slightly anachronistic . . . However, the population of Singapore is dwindling, and thus, how many soldiers can she have? And to take over Indonesia? I believe it will take at least 3 Singapores to take control of Indonesia . . . I think the rebellion troups in Indonesia would be more aggressive than that of in Iraq...

An please do remember that at any one time if Indonesia and Malaysia's marine surround Singapore's water coast, then Singapore's alone, helpless . . .

[ElansarGelmir]

what do you think of the fact that malaysia will now actively manufacture and supply military weapons for the region and parts of the world? at this point, malaysiakini is extensively discussing this topic through the letters to the editor.

I just hope Malaysia realize what she's doing . . . Yeah, it would be wise to have a stronger defense, but distributing fire arms to all parts of the world? Won't that somehow make Malaysia more capable of being alleged by the Americans as the terrorist's den? Or perhaps criminals in Malaysia will gain easier access to fire arms?

[zAiTsEv]

well malaysia is bolstering its defence these past few years...

sad 2 say, malaysia is still very vulnerable 2 kidnappers, pirates & terrorists, especially in sabah's east coast waters & the straits of malacca.

[Diesel]

well malaysia is bolstering its defence these past few years

hopefully this time, they buy something reliable. not the stock clearance stuff that people dont wanna use no more. otherwise, might as well get some catapults. it should be reliable in destroying a city wall. (AOE anyone?)

[__earth]

Let's forget about those people across the strait for the moment and consider the people across the River Golok.

http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Thursday/Frontpage/20040429073301/Article/indexb_html

This threat seems to be very real relative to Huxley's scenario.

Though this might seems like a disconnection from the topic, I think it's relevent with the current flow of the discussion; I simply don't want to open a new thread.

[topdog]

scary. i wonder how many of the militants are hiding out in malaysia now.

[Randomphantom]

Those terrorists/extremists/pirates are what we need to worry about instead of Singapore. The problem is, this isn't easily combated with Su20mkm fighter jets, pt91 main battle tanks... hope this war won't be waged on our soil.[/quote]

[el_empty]

wow thanks for the feedback.

If Singapore were to launch a simultaneous attack on Malaysian airbases in the peninsula, wouldn't their flights of 'low-flying jets' be detected long ago before they even reach Kuantan, let alone Butterworth?

i think the article refers to a pre-emptive attack, meaning that an offensive will be made simultaneously or shortly after a declaration of war is made. jet's taking off from singapore should reach kuantan fairly quickly and even if ground level folks detect the jets, they wouldn't know or realize what's happening. and even so, i wonder if TUDM will mobilize their forces quickly enough to counter.

I can't see them doing that from their small island home hundreds of kilometers away from these places unless they have aircraft carriers anchored off the coast

SAF forces are not only stationed in the island. they're all over, in taiwan, brunei, australia, and if i'm not mistaken in the states too. mobilizing these troops will not take long, and them approaching south china sea will go undetected by malaysia anyway.

In the event of an attack like this, their flights of fighter-bombers (most probably would be F-16s) would have been intercepted by our jets, MiG-29 fighters from Kuantan, which are officially classified as 'air superiority aircraft'.

i think it's quite naive to compare two machines in combat to make this conclusion. what really matters in the end is the pilot skills. can we dare say that our pilots are more superior than singaporean ones? on average, who's pilots are better educated? better in instant-decision making? and in the end, who's better equipped?

if you want to look at numbers, the article says it all: "It's (Singapore's) air force has more combat aircraft than Malaysia and Indonesia combined."

Singapore may have a technologically more advanced army, but fighting will come to a standstill in a few months...We have the capability to replace our lost units through industry and raw materials

in times of war within our boundaries, industry and commerce will come to a standstill. meanwhile, singapore has HUGE reseves, possibly one of the higest in the world, much higher than malaysia's. enough money to last a while i think.

sorry USSDefiantNX74205 (wah... can i call you USS from now on? very long lah...) with the current situation i think malaysia doesn't stand a chance against the SAF.

I hate how the article is belligerent on all fronts. Seriously, would Malaysia want to invade Singapore and vice versa?

i think if singapore has an offensive strategy against malaysia, we should have one against them too. just because we're neighbors, doesn't mean we won't get into a huge fight. and when we do, having them crap on us will mean the end of it all. all it takes is just one war to do a lot of damage. lastly, this will sound cliche, but really, "you never know."

Tim Huxley's "masterpiece" is just an instrument to stir things up in the ASEAN region

i think you're too quick to say that. the militaries on either side and their relationship is a very relevant issue. besides he's a credible expert on this issue, if not the foremost. http://www.iiss.org/biogs.php?staffID=116

wow sorry for the long post. but personally i believe this is a great step for malaysia. there're a lot more benefits to a defence industry than there are costs. not manufacturing arms on the contention that it will provide easier access to terrorists and local criminals is quite narrowminded (sorry ElansarGelmir :) ). when such industries are created, they will be done so on the imperative that a better legal and enforcement system need to be put forth, ones that are much better and effective than what we have now. when you have institution, you need rules and you need to enforce those rules.

businesswise, this is money. not many countries make arms. we come in, make good weapons (assuming we r&d and make sound decisions), undercut the bigger players and in the end, we put ourselves on the same playing field as india, china, and ultimately singapore. not only can we sell weapons to others, we can sell them to the MAF too. keep the foreign exchange.

which leads to another point. the r&d associated with the military will be very beneficial for us if we want to compete globally in the technology sector. the military as an industrial complex creates a voluminous and extremely diverse demand for everything under the sun. it's not just engineering and gas and cammo, it's also construction, catering, software, raw materials, telecomms, transportation, JOBS (and smart people), etc. and these are only the obvious ones. we have the resources to supply the military, if not, our pre-existing industries can carve their own niche for military technology. eg. proton developing better and more powerful engines. and in the end, these engines can be used to better differentiate their products, like making faster cars, larger trucks, or maybe planes...

ok i'm going to stop now. bottomline is i think we need to begin thinking about how a weapons industry transcend the act of making tools for killing, but bringing all sorts of benefits to the country.

and you engineer-recommers, they might hire you...

[el_empty]

oop
one up for singapore, also one step behind for malaysia

Singapore sets up defence lab in France
APRIL 29, 2004 THU
http://straitstimes.com.sg/singapore/story/0,4386,248287,00.html?

[weich]

sighz....yup...malaysia is always being criticised for their weird military eqpt purchases...like half the main air squadron based on F/A 18s and the other half on MIG-29s....and then we have the BAe Hawks, A-4 Skyhawks, etc....and now the Su-30MKM!

If you look at them individually...yes it's wow! cool wide range of aircraft....but look closer and you'll realise the increase in cost of maintenance, training for technicians, eqpt upgrade....

now look at s'pore....main air squadrons based on the F-16C/D, these are multi-role aircraft mind you...and F-16 is known for its dogfighting capabilities and versatility to handle heavy payloads (compared to the MIG-29s, MIG-29s are better at dogfights but it seems that some of our aircraft are not in tip top condition...) and in aircraft superiority scenarios...our airspace isn't that big....F-16s can reach Kuantan in like 20 mins?

*(estimating from a KL flight from Sepang to S'pore flying at about Mach 0.8 which takes 1 hour, and so F-16s flying at Mach 1.8 can do a 20 min?)

have you heard of ST Technologies....singapore's defense research company...now making the headlines for creating this APC that is a contender for the US Army's new generation APCs tpo replace the reliable M113....and now, creating battlefield robots....and they've already created their own UAV!

And ST Technologies has a base in Israel as well, learning from the Israelis....and also cooperating on developing new technologies for the military market...in fact their F-5Es (equipped with new avionics, new control systems, new engines) are so much more advanced than ours...they can shoot down like all our Hawks, Skyhawks and F-5s...

look at us? what happened to the technology transfer deals when we bought the Mig-29s? I know its with Zetro....but haven't heard much from them.....

if you look at aircraft technologies...what drove them was the money from the military side...composites and titanium are all pioneered on military aircrafts b4 crossing over to the civilian aircrafts....and if you can see that research in the military field...is definitely beneficial for all =)

so why not have plants making guns? If we can learn something useful out of it...why not?

[ElansarGelmir]

not manufacturing arms on the contention that it will provide easier access to terrorists and local criminals is quite narrowminded (sorry ElansarGelmir :) ).

Hehe, I know that my mind's narrow sometimes . . . But I'm here to share and learn . . . Don't worry, I'm glad to be corrected . . . But what makes you say that it won't provide easier access to local criminals?

[USSDefiantNX74205]

Since we're having a discussion on the Malaysian defence industry, I thought I might just ask a question here, though it may stray a bit from the main topic.

What do you think of our military academies? Are academies like KTD (Kolej Tentera Darat), ATMA (Akademi Tentera Malaysia) and KTU (Kolej Tentera Udara) producing quality officers? Are these academies and the officers that they produce on par with what the world's leading military academies (Sandhurst, West Point, etc.) are producing?

[USSDefiantNX74205]

Oh, and I apologize for the long nick. Feel free to call me USS, Defiant, USSDefiant or whatever name you wish. Doesn't really matter to me... :D

[el_empty]

But what makes you say that it won't provide easier access to local criminals?

i didn't say it won't :D . i said the fact that it *might* provide terrorists and criminals with allegedly easier access to weapons, should not be used as an excuse or an impediment against a weapons program. my argument hinges on the idea that the development of this new industry means the goverment must take extra steps to better safeguard the public with better rules and enforcement.

do you guys remember the fiasco in perak (near taiping?) couple of years ago where some dudes ran off with truckloads of weapons, enough to start a war? i don't blame the negligent guards at the gates, but the tidak apa attitude of the top. this infectious attitude carries down no matter what. but with a weapons program, where a lot of money (and pride) is at stake, the govt will be forced to be on a more hawkish lookout.

What do you think of our military academies?

what sad states. even if they're great schools, they don't show it. this is akademi tentera malaysia's webpage: http://www.atma.gov.my/

USS raised a good point about local military colleges. a defense industry definitely should incorporate these colleges, not to mention civilian universities - a good example is MIT. i always like to tell people that MIT helped the US (and the allies) win WWII. here's a short article on how photography research at MIT led by the famous harold edgerton aided USAF in recon.
http://libraries.mit.edu/archives/exhibits/nightphoto/

(sidenote: you might want to check out his civilian images too - http://www.josephbellows.com/edgerton.html)

i remember when i was on an attachment program in NTU (Singapore's Nanyang Tech Uni) i came across this researcher who was developing a biomimetic underwater propulsion system that mimics the thrusts of an eel. basically, it makes little or no noise and goes undetected by sonar (you think it's a fish). i asked him what is it going to be used for since people have no use for an expensive silent boat and he said "submarines lah... "

[masterof_none]

Huxley's idea of Singapore has the superior army, and Malaysia has poor army, therefore, Malaysia is vulnerable to S'pore attack (and will lost the war) sound really phony to me.
It's like, people who want to create conflict unnecessarily among two old friends, just for the heck of it.

Take North and South Korea.
Just because North Korea have the nuclear weapon, and just because they have conflict with South Korea, doesn't mean that they can simply nuke south Korea away/
North Korea is not that stupid. They know that every force would attack them if they nuke everyone . THe US will come, the Japanese troop, the Chinese army, the Russians soldiers.

People who speculate war is the most notorious people. they just try to make things worse.

Huxley try to dramatize things, like USS told us, just like in the movie.
He try to imagine Singapore attacking Malaysia.
God Forbid, but I don't think it's gonna happen.

Despite our verbal war, Singapore and Malaysia is more like little brother and big brother. Granted that sometimes, little brother can be so mean that they try to torment the big brother. But, like Malay proverb " carik-carik bulu ayam, lama-lama bercantum jua".
no matter how we quarrel, we're not hostile. It's not like Japanese v American in WWII. We're just dispute with petty little things. that's all.

Plus, like aquila said, we're dependent of each other. we have relatives there, people from Johor go to singapore to work and singapore people go shopping at JB. we're all interdependant. we're partnering in business. Lee Kuan Yew even want to merge with Malaysia!..War?..Don't even talk about it. I don't think it's gonna happen

however, I agree that we should give more funding towards our military enhancement and that we cannot take our defense for granted. I'm sad to hear nuri chopper crashed, (once, it was two at the the same time, different places), and lots of pilot trainee lost in the padi field somewhere in Kedah.

I think if we could provide more funding to defense industry, we could avoid these accidents from happening, strengthening our defense, while we may reap profits from getting more knowledge as a result of our R&D effort.

therefore, I think, while the s'pore defense issue might provoke some restlessness among Malaysians and hostile attitude toward our neigbor singapore, it should not be so. we're good old friends. we need each other. we may even exchange knowledge and even partner in building some military weapons. who knows?

[Thirdshifter]

in the forseable future, the only group of people that might attack Malaysia is Islamic terrorist. This dicussion is like talkin about the possibilty of aliens attacking earth. Well, its there but not gonna happen.

I think if Malaysia was to be in a war with anybody it would not be them and I'm sure singapore is gonna be our closes ally.

Malaysian loves singapore but just hate to admit it. Let me go first Singapore i love you!

Lighten up people. Who ever wrote that piece of shit must be proud to see how easy people got so pissed about this.

Anyway Malaysia,Still leading South East Asia by just being north of Singapore :D

[ElansarGelmir]

I think the biggest military threat Singapore's facing now is JI. In fact, they almost bombed Changi Airport and the causeway between Singapore and Johor, had it not for Indonesia who managed to ruin their plan by capturing the perpetrators. So, this proves that Singapore depends heavily on her neighboring countries like Malaysia and Indonesia for her own security... So why cari pasal?

[el_empty]

thanks for introducing the scenario of islamic militancy to the discussion guys!

but foremost, we shouldn't confine the threat of terrorism to islamic militants only. true we have the insurgencies in the Patani north, Aceh (and the many countless indonesian regions), and Palawan, but a terrorist can be anybody. we've already seen christian terrorists in lombok, japanese in tokyo, etc. so watch out!

had it not for Indonesia who managed to ruin their plan by capturing the perpetrators. So, this proves that Singapore depends heavily on her neighboring countries like Malaysia and Indonesia for her own security.

i thought singapore's intelligence busted the JI operatives who were plotting an attack on those targets? indonesia didn't really capture the individuals in singapore, but they arrested (the bedridden) Bashir guy who supposedly is the head of JI in indo.

whatever it is, i don't think that's enough to 'prove that singapore depends heavily on her neighboring countries... for her own security." the reason they came up with their total defence plan (http://www.totaldefence.org.sg/ is that they cannot rely on others to defend their homeland. intel will and should be shared regionally but ultimately your defence is your defence and nobody will come to your aid for goodwill reasons.

Huxley's idea of Singapore has the superior army, and Malaysia has poor army therefore, Malaysia is vulnerable to S'pore attack (and will lost the war) sound really phony to me.

i don't think that's what he's saying. his thesis is based on an analysis of the Singapore Armed Forces and how it develops a strategy for its domestic security regionally since singapore is a "red dot in a green sea" as former indo president habibi once infamously quoted.

for better elaboration, read
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20010901fabook5597/tim-huxley/defending-the-lion-city-the-armed-forces-of-singapore.html

Huxley try to dramatize things, like USS told us, just like in the movie.
He try to imagine Singapore attacking Malaysia.
nope he didn't imagine it. the singapore generals did. the way they imagine malaysia attacking singapore. the way the malaysian generals, i'm sure, imagine too. and the malay mail reported provided the dramatization (attacking klcc and all..)

...


if this discussion leads to anything it's definitely NOT that we have to accumulate weapons so that we can go to war with singapore. no that's not the case.

the article serves to raise the question: If we cannot deal with a threat from a neighboring country IF there is a possibility of a threat, how are we going to deal with other threats, both domestic and international?

who's going to defend us? if a foreign country attacks us will singapore come to our defence? they will give us money yes, but they won't send their children, their soldiers to defend our front when we have our own regulars. here's another hypothetical situation. what if thailand holds an election in future, and the elected leader is a nazi-type facist (this is purely hypothetical), the way hitler was elected to power, and he wants to invade malaysia to reinstate the glory of a former Siam kindom?

let's focus away from huxley's book now - focus away from discussing whether singapore and malaysia will go to war, but rather focusing on how we can strengthen our military, and efficiently spend the RM on modernization.
[/i][/quote]

[el_empty]

dasar pertahanan negara:
http://www.mod.gov.my/mdcp.php?maincode=mind-resc009

[john_doe_85]

Wow... Complex issue... Here's my two cents worth:

Singapore has no vested interest in attacking Malaysia cos it still needs a neighbour to supply food and water to it. Only time that Singapore govt has ever "threatened" to attack was if Malaysia cuts off the water supply without agreement... LKY did tell Mahathir then that Sing will come in to take over the reservoir... Other than that, why bother?

Even if Singapore has deep pockets to dig into, they have no economical interest in war. They need a quick decisive victory if they attack because the economy will not hold... Investors will run on the first sight of war and trade will slow down, which is bad for an economy where trade is 3x its GDP and is very dependent on it - e.g. PSA and Changi.

Furthermore, even if they do attack and blow up the AFBs and other installations, they cannot hold on in Malaysia for the sheer fact that, yes, we have resources to refurnish our army as well as more population that can be trained into combat readiness (recall National Service clause which dictates that any citizen between age of 18 and 35 can be called into military service - not just marching and singing songs to foster relations) - though it will take some time. They can hold on for some time before losing ground due to lack of resources and manpower and at the end, they will have to retreat, unless we make careless mistakes. Furthermore, Singaporeans can shout anything they want at us but when it comes down to the fight, IMHO, I think we can win most of the time lah... After having stayed with them for some time now, I feel that they are rather apathetic peace loving creatures unlike our ruly teenagers that seem to reek discipline problems at home :D

But it's only my two cents worth. :)

[screw3d]

Wow.. all the armchair generals popping out of the woodwork ;)

[el_empty]

do you guys think the national service should have been implemented at all in the first place? and if you do, do you think we should have more military components to it?

[USSDefiantNX74205]

I support national service, but only if it means doing military training like Singapore, Israel, etc. They can add in some unity and patriotism stuff in between, but the most important will be military training. Teach them to fire weapons for crying out loud!

Currently, the NS we have is nothing but a farce, wasting 1/2 billion bucks to 'foster unity and patriotism' among roughly 1/5 of each generation of youths. Yeah, right. As if that's gonna make us more patriotic...

[weich]

hmm....maybe we shouldn't include girls....or girls and guys should be in separate camps! Sometimes 6 months without girls is a bit too long for some guys....which is why we have all the rape cases, etc....and male instructors are at risk here of being sued by girls who might accuse of molest, etc...

maybe just send the girls to cooking camp and boost the standard of cooking in M'sia to an even higher standard... haha :D

[ElansarGelmir]

maybe just send the girls to cooking camp and boost the standard of cooking in M'sia to an even higher standard... haha :D

Hehe, doubting the capability of female patriots of Malaysia? To me, it's ok to have girls too in NS (I dunno whether other countries are doing that), however, the authority should increase the level of the security, and girls need to learn how to behave. And the officers and soldiers are supposed to be dedicated to their job... They should take the initiative to patrol the area constantly, making sure that everything's in control ALL THE TIME, and not just leaving everything on its own, assuming everything's going fine and minum kopi else where.

And yeah, like what USSdefiant had said, NS's supposed to train the trainees to be more united and ready to fight for Malaysia, instead of using it as a propaganda instrument to upbraid and spit on the west and so on... And what's the use of all those ceramahs when they can't even fire a rifle in times of war? I say, give them more physical trainings and get them ready to fight for Malaysia.

This is something that I found from the web:
http://www.malaysiakini.com/letters/200307070034768.php

What do you guys think of it?

[el_empty]

have girls too in NS (I dunno whether other countries are doing that),
i know for sure at least s.korea, taiwan, and singapore do not have females in national service, just volunteers. singapore thought of introducing ladies to its NS program many years ago, but i think not for military training, but for medical and nurses program

and in terms of military training, yeah if you think about it, how would malaysians design weapons when they don't even know how to handle a gun? in singapore, some servicemen may be selected for scholarships that lead them towards a career in the military command, strategic studies, and through Singapore Technologies, and NSTB (nat'l science and technology board) a career in defense r&d.

[weich]

hmmm....not doubting about girl's abilities...if you've watched G.I. Jane, I'm sure our girls can do the same....but if you put girls into military training, wouldn't they start getting muscles as big as ours? 8O Just a thought....haha

btw, in S'pore...according to my frenz...girls who decide to join the army right after their 'A' levels...get promoted to Officers almost right away!

maybe training as nurses would be good...since we have a lack of that in our country or even do community service? like build a playground in kampungs, etc....wouldn't that require less money than currently?

or an OBS course would be good...teach you about the outdoors...and also promote X-games in youths!

hmm....just a thought =)

[USSDefiantNX74205]

Okay, I can't resist but bring up another gender equality issue here. Why only subject males to NS? I thought females have always wanted to be treated equally? Although I'm well aware that there are certain physical limitations in females compared to males, this shouldn't be an issue used to limit national service only to males. Israel has set a good example, where men are expected to serve longer compared to females. Maybe we should go along those lines instead of exempting females completely from NS. That would be really unfair to males.

If there's any worry about the safety of female participants, then the govt should review the credentials of all NS trainers thoroughly before giving them the job.

[ElansarGelmir]

Okay, I can't resist but bring up another gender equality issue here. Why only subject males to NS?

Yeah, and gals are lamenting over the fact that we do not treat them equally enough. Hmm... I think girls are allowed to go for NS service in Singapore, but they are not made compulsory (do pardon me if i got it wrong). There's this news from NST I've read in Singapore says that there's a lady who was in NS and she complained that she didn't get to do stuffs like the males did (i.e. she's given some light trainings).

[weich]

hmm...you guys do realise that deaths sometimes happen in NS due to exhaustion of the body....even if a person is very fit....a sudden blood vessel burst in the brain can cause an instant death or when the heart just suddenly stops...this has happen a few times in S'pore's NS from what I've read in the newspapers while I was in S'pore for 6.5 years....even in international football...which happened to this former West Ham player, also a Cameroon footballer...(if you still remember...)

Once a death happens in NS, it is very hard to convince ppl that you are doing the right thing....and the govt might even get sued for negligence, etc....and the blaming thing will start going around in circles....and who will talk about the equality thing by then?

Physical exhaustion which is normally done in military camps is not for everyone! And also in S'pore, once you break a bone in certain parts of your body, you get posted to become a clerk/driver...to prevent any further damages to the body...besides that Singaporeans start their training gradually and since young which is the case in NAPFA tests....I know Malaysia has also a similar program...but don't think you have to go for TAF (Trim And Fit) clubs or SHIT (Super High Intensive Training...which is what the PE teachers in RJ call them) camps....when you fail =)

don't think we are ready yet for real military training....and there's alot of nasty things officers can do to recruits but would it be accepted here? some are really humiliating....ask your S'porean frenz....those who've gone thru' the 2.5 years in army...how is it? Furthermore, with such large numbers of teenage gangsters (or wannabes...) in Malaysia, can the officers actually control them?

Even in S'pore....fights sometimes happen between platoons...and certain platoons are known to be gangster platoons....and if you are gay, you're in serious trouble! Which is why S'pore separates their citizens into different platoons....those from JC will always happen to be in the same platoon....and those from neighbourhood schools also in the same.... =)

All this is what I've heard from my frenz...there might be some exaggerations 'cos I did not experience them....but they could happen won't they? If we can't handle the guys can we handle the girls? Do we even have enough female instructors to guide them in the first place?

Even if the girls want equal treatment, it doesn't mean that if we do 1000 push-ups they have to do 1000 push-ups as well...it only means the effort required to get an effect of 1000 push-ups on girls...which could be like cleaning up after the vomit/urine/whatever of disabled patients, handwash dirty bedlinens (they are really heavy you know)....

Certain things may seem unequal from certain points of view...but it could be from another view? Or as George Orwell wrote it in Animal Farm - "Some animals are more equal than others"?

[ElansarGelmir]

One thing i know about gays in Singapore is that before the trainees go for NS, they are required to go for medical check up. Then, if they are gay, they have to inform the doc about it, and they would be given special codes and will be bunked somewhere else, so that they won't be bunking up with the rest (sort of an effort to prevent the assault of homophobics).

[weich]

any of you guys have any military contacts? Was talking to this guy I met in Holiday Villa London the other day, and he was doing some business with the Malaysian army....military procurement or something like that.....but I forgot to get his card! sighz....

[Zeroth]

If singapore decides to attack, most probably they would have support from the U.S. Which also means they would have the entire US carrier fleet backing them up. We don't stand a chance. Not at all...

However, should we decide to take Singapore on, i think it'll be possible to win the war, but keeping it would be another case. International peace keepers will come into play, and we'll be driven out of the island.

To take out singapore is quite easy i think. Its just an island, to defend the island is called 'point defence' and its incredibly difficult to do so. Malaysian navy fleet has submarines to secure the waters. Cut off the outside, they would not be able to do much. Destroying the singaporean navy will certainly cripple their defence. Our air assets is far more superior than theirs. If we can get to them first, then we could clear the skies. But it must be kept in mind that they do have E2C-Hawkeyes that provides extended raday coverange. So they could probably take out our fighters from long range using missiles like AMRAM. After air superiority is acheived, we could just keep shelling the island with artillery fire. Added the advantage of the multi missile technology we just bought, it is possible to take out their ground assets. As their ground forces are weakened, we can then send in amphibous attacks to take over the island.

[ElansarGelmir]

what's this? another new film directed by mr. koh?

[Zeroth]

erm... not really, its based on facts! haha!

[weich]

just a thought...what about pre-emptive strikes? Spies in Malaysia would have known if we're gonna attack....and Johor, would be the most badly hit in that case =)

btw, you sure our air force is superior? not until our Su-30s arrive...and by then, the Singapore Air Force could have received their shipments of F-15/Rafale/Eurofighter!

..and our Skorpene class submarines aren't even here yet...even the Meko class frigates/corvettes that we bought a few years back are not even here!

...our tanks might not be able to take out their Apaches though...and anyway, since the US requires S'pore to store their AMRAAMs in the US, most likely the whole world will know when they feel like there's gonna be war....

...anyway, a war movie would be good...haha

[Europa]

However, should we decide to take Singapore on, i think it'll be possible to win the war, but keeping it would be another case. International peace keepers will come into play, and we'll be driven out of the island.

To take out singapore is quite easy i think. Its just an island, to defend the island is called 'point defence' and its incredibly difficult to do so. Malaysian navy fleet has submarines to secure the waters. Cut off the outside, they would not be able to do much. Destroying the singaporean navy will certainly cripple their defence. Our air assets is far more superior than theirs. If we can get to them first, then we could clear the skies. But it must be kept in mind that they do have E2C-Hawkeyes that provides extended raday coverange. So they could probably take out our fighters from long range using missiles like AMRAM. After air superiority is acheived, we could just keep shelling the island with artillery fire. Added the advantage of the multi missile technology we just bought, it is possible to take out their ground assets. As their ground forces are weakened, we can then send in amphibous attacks to take over the island.

Well, look. If we ever decide to attack S'pore and leave it in ruins after all the artillery shelling, missile attacks and repeated aerial bombarding, what is the point of attacking S'pore then? Just for the sake of fun?!? Or is it just for the piece of land? I certainly do not see the point of attacking S'pore with this in mind. Maybe it?s just a theoretical exercise but it's bound to fail when diplomacy and economic factors come into the war equation. In whatever conflict, international standing is very important, and the side deliberately causing huge collateral damage WILL lose their standing, especially if there are no concrete reasons for invading in the first place.

S'pore, knowing that it'll have to fight a guerrilla war when besieged, has made preparations for that eventuality. This mode of warfare is the hardest to counter and the US being dogged down in Fallujah and Najaf is one of the latest examples. They have the knowledge, resources and manpower to fight these kind of war (their armed forces trained with the US Rangers and officers go to their military academies!) their people is frightened of the threat across the border and hence, will resist the occupation, if there's any or simply flee(that depends on their level of patriotism but estimates say that 50% of the reservists will pack their bags and flee when the opportunities comes up) They also have submarines and naval assets to overcome a blockade, and they plan to be reinforced from the air (maybe our SAMs can disrupt this)

But ultimately they certainly could not last long against an extended assault. This is where the Americans come into the picture. Before long after the start of hostilities, the US Seventh Fleet (USS Kitty Hawk from Japan with the rest of its task force fleets) will sail into the South China Sea with a MEF (Marine Expeditionary Force) to reinforce them. How about that? The US is a staunch ally of S'pore, and their global force projection is excellent (If they chose to, they'll deploy B1-B Lancers and B-52s Stratofotresses from Guam, Diego Garcia and B2-A Spirits from Missouri AFB to bomb M'sian military targets to provide immediate assistance to the S'poreans. This is one keystone of their defence strategy: Be reinforced by local offshore assets and allied units ASAP during the course of war involving large scale assaults or extended sieges.

And Weich, a pre-emptive strike is possible, they have artillery pieces that can fire with range of exceeding 100 miles. But their strike could be tipped off when they recall their assets from Fort Bragg and other bases in the States to reinforce themselves. What I'm trying to say is that there will be signs that will indicate that they are intending an attack, however secret they may try to make it to be.

[el_empty]

wah! i was away for a while and everybody's talking about destroying singapore! holy cow....

but to put my 2 cents worth, i believe the US will not support only Singapore. rather, they'd be providing military aid against the aggressor. both malaysia and singapore are strong trading partners with them and there's no saying that they'll even send anything over.

if there's any rivalry, malaysia should try to surpass singapore in developing a defence industry. already sg manufactures their own tanks, rifles, radars, while we merely refurbish things. singapore develops products whereas we recycle them. even if the weapons aren't used for war, they're used for technological advancement and ultimately the creation of a sophisticated workforce.

now that we're lagging behind in hardware, what do you think are the ways malaysia can carve itself a niche elsewhere? perhaps in digital warfare? how does the military fund such operation, and how do you allocate the resources? what kind of workforce should the hire? what do they develop? what do they fight?