Anwar Ibrahim final appeal

[CyberJaya]

It seems like Anwar has his final chance to overturn the sodomy
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3699313.stm
What do you guys think. Is he guilty. I think that he is a man of talent and remember even Dr M was expelled from UMNO. Malaysia could probably do with a man like Anwar if found not guilty. Personally i find it hard to believe that a such a man could be guilty of such a crime but it is the courts that will decide the matter.

[SpRInG]

he's an extremist, i don't suport him. If Malaysia falls into his hands, then it would be finished. Malaysia would among the al-Qaeda group's countries. nooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!

[CyberJaya]

well i'm not really on his side or anything but he was finance minister and the heir apparent. Thats all i'm going on. That is some credintials but that is all i'm going on. Maybe you're right.

[ElansarGelmir]

#Digress
Do you guys remember once somewhere in 1991-1995 or somewhere between this period of time, our school holidays were changed from December to November? I think that disrupted my Christmas break... Thanks to Anwar...
#Digress

Though I doubt that Anwar is such a pervert (claimed by the govt), I still doubt his capability of being the leader of Malaysia. I mean, Malaysia have strong reasons and judgements why they don't want Anwar Ibrahim at the leadership position, right? Imagine, he even spurs havoc and turbulence in Malaysia just to proof to others that he's not guilty. A man with good virtues won't do that. He's just another politician, i would say.

[CyberJaya]

Unfortunately i dont remember that time as i wasnt in Malaysia but i suppose you're right about him being just another politician. I think it is hard on him to suffer the ignominity of being in prison as well as having had his career turned upside down as well. One is bad enough but then where would he go if his appeal was successful. I'm sure he'd be back in politics like a flash.

[ElansarGelmir]

I dunno about that. Heard rumors that the govt (I think mostly UMNO) plans to have him locked up until he's old enough to retire from politic kua... Anyway, this will be another interesting case. Got to follow up. :D

[USSDefiantNX74205]

Well politician or not, it's wrong to jail him in such an unfair manner. The judiciary has been under Mahathir and the govt's control (my PA teacher told me this) since the late 80s if I'm not mistaken, so it would be pretty easy to throw trumped up (or sexed up in this case) charges at him and then cook up some evidence to jail him. The law after all, is on the govt's side. If Mahathir didn't like him, the just fire him and boot him outta the party. But I guess he was afraid of the repricussions it might bring to UMNO and BN, so he decided to silence him for good. And it ain't a surprise too that all Anwar's appeals were turned down. Like I said, the judiciary is under govt control. I'm not speaking as an Anwar supporter here, just as a guy who wants to see a fair trial and a return to a fair judiciary system.

[ElansarGelmir]

I think that works for most governments. I heard in Cuba, if u're a revolutionist, you may find your self stashed into a jail for committing rape and murder, or things which you are sure that you've not done before... And then they can even get your pals to witness your misdoings as well... :wink:

[weich]

hmm....I used to hear about this conspiracy theory (probably one of those 'coffeeshop conspiracy' ) about Al Gore's (or the US govt's) plan to change the govt's of SEA countries who do not back the Democrats:

Remember that during the time of Anwar's trial, a few govt heads in SEA were replaced e.g. in Indonesia, Philippines and Thailand...and remember Al Gore coming to Malaysia and said something quite nasty about Malaysia....coincidence???

And also there were rumours that Anwar was favourable to US policies, etc....and Dr. M as you know wasn't the kind who would bow down to anyone...and would personally not like his successor to be US's tool...plus the reputation M'sia has as a model for Muslim countries....

And all that were the real reasons why he was charge in such a bizzare manner....where only 2 parties will know the real reasons behind it....

Disclaimer: Of course I can't verify this (said it was a coffeeshop conspiracy and also used the word rumour somewhere)....but thought it was just a nice theory that kinda make sense =) Not trying to be provocative or anything like that...and I am politically neutral in a sense...haha

what do u guys think?

[USSDefiantNX74205]

I dunno about the conspiracies to change SEA govts, but from what I can see, Anwar would prolly be more anti-US than Mahathir, given his somewhat racist attitude (can anyone confirm he's a Malay supremacist?) and involvement with movements like al-Arqam (or so I heard). I for one was glad to see him go, though not in the right way.

[topdog]

I dunno about the conspiracies to change SEA govts, but from what I can see, Anwar would prolly be more anti-US than Mahathir
i think the general consensus in kopitiams was anwar was pro-U.S....remember he was given a grand welcome usually reserved for head of states when he visited the U.S. before he got sacked?

as for why mahathir did what he did, who knows? there must be compelling reasons for such drastic action. whether it's for mahathir's own sake or for the country's sake, only mahathir knows. but there's no denying that the whole fiasco was so third world. shady conviction on dubious charges in a kangaroo court...no different from mugabe, castro and the like.

[__earth]

he's an extremist, i don't suport him. If Malaysia falls into his hands, then it would be finished. Malaysia would among the al-Qaeda group's countries. nooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!

why do you think so?

Though I doubt that Anwar is such a pervert (claimed by the govt), I still doubt his capability of being the leader of Malaysia. I mean, Malaysia have strong reasons and judgements why they don't want Anwar Ibrahim at the leadership position, right? Imagine, he even spurs havoc and turbulence in Malaysia just to proof to others that he's not guilty. A man with good virtues won't do that. He's just another politician, i would say.

civil dissent minus the stupid youth with unruly behavior, is human right.

I dunno about the conspiracies to change SEA govts, but from what I can see, Anwar would prolly be more anti-US than Mahathir, given his somewhat racist attitude (can anyone confirm he's a Malay supremacist?) and involvement with movements like al-Arqam (or so I heard). I for one was glad to see him go, though not in the right way.

Al-Arqam? you mean ABIM? I don't think DSAI has anything to do with Al-Aqram.

And IMO, DSAI was the most liberal leader in UMNO - he's not a Malay supremacist unlike that Hishamuddin guy.

[misled_youth]

We must respect the rule of law. Our legal system is as such where the judge will rule in favour of whichever party that has proven his/her case beyond a reasonable doubt.

How does Anwar explain his semen on the mattress?
________
Web shows (http://livesexwebshows.com/)

[__earth]

We must respect the rule of law. Our legal system is as such where the judge will rule in favour of whichever party that has proven his/her case beyond a reasonable doubt.

Ump... How about ISA?

[CyberJaya]

We must respect the rule of law. Our legal system is as such where the judge will rule in favour of whichever party that has proven his/her case beyond a reasonable doubt.

How does Anwar explain his semen on the mattress?

If that is the case then he must be guilty but it is also said that the building where the alledged incident took place didnt exist when the alleged incident took place.

[aquila]

i think yall have been brainwashed by bn... anwar charged for sodomy? i think that's the most ridiculous thing ever... they should respect his private life.. let the one who has no sin cast the first stone.. what hypocrites!

how abt that melaka chief minister who slept with an underage gal and did all those shameful things? why wasn't he prosecuted? despite that DAP guy, Lim Kit Siang's son's efforts? FYI, the guy went to jail for diggin out the truth... is there justice? no! judge for yourselves... i'm sure yall are intelligent ppl...

what next? are they gonna catch everyone they dont like on the grounds of moral impurity?

on anwar being racist. i donno abt that... i was told he speaks chinese... he probably wanted to reform msia's econ system and i heard that he challenged M on many things... probably why M thought he was a pest.... i do think that maybe anwar threatened to charge M and friends for cronyism, nepotism, corruption... perhaps that's why he was caught and sentenced to jail...

i just think it was a wrong wrong thing to put him in jail like that.

[Diesel]

he's an extremist, i don't suport him. If Malaysia falls into his hands, then it would be finished. Malaysia would among the al-Qaeda group's countries. nooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!

dude, grow up.

obviously the govt media tactics work on you. i think if you were in the british occupaiton era, you'll believe that patriots like Datuk Bahaman, Dol Said, Mat Kilau etc are extremists too. maybe u once tought Nelson Mandela was an extremist as well.

what makes you think Malaysia will be an al-Qaeda ally if Anwar rules the country?

And why is he an extrimist anyway? is it because he dare to speak out against the agressor?

[Diesel]

how abt that melaka chief minister who slept with an underage gal and did all those shameful things? why wasn't he prosecuted? despite that DAP guy, Lim Kit Siang's son's efforts? FYI, the guy went to jail for diggin out the truth... is there justice? no! judge for yourselves... i'm sure yall are intelligent ppl...

yeah, i think for that reason, Lim Guan Eng is a noble man. He fought for the truth, he fought for justice, he fought for someone of other race.

[aquila]

Thanks. Couldnt remember his name. Shame on me. :P

Anyways, he was on Amnesty International's prisoners of conscience list. I received a letter that he wrote to AI members.

[Diesel]

We must respect the rule of law. Our legal system is as such where the judge will rule in favour of whichever party that has proven his/her case beyond a reasonable doubt.

How does Anwar explain his semen on the mattress?

Well, they can question the truthfullness of the chains of custody of the evidence i guess.

Beyond a reasonable doubt?? I hope you read the details of the trial. Do you actually believe that that driver is a good witness, and he proved his case beyond a reasonable doubt?

saying that anwar commited the crime in a condominium, on the date when the building was not even complete yet is beyond logic.

dude, our judicial system is not made and run by god. it's still very open to corruption.

[topdog]

i am not prepared to call anwar a hero. who knows what caused him to fall out of favor with mahathir? obviously he was a threat to mahathir, but for what reason...we will only get to hear his side of the story when he gets out, some day.

his rise up umno's ranks was as meteoric as his fall was spectacular. i would think twice before canonizing any politician that could navigate his way up the murky world of umno politics, anwar included.

i bet he won't be released. malaysia's judiciary is far from "independent." you have been living under a tempurung if you think it is. the umno bigwigs are too afraid of him.

[phantom]

you read what others wrote about him,yeap that includes the western pens.why not we hear something said by Mr. Anwar himself.let's hear what Mr. Anwar said about Dr. M on his 1st speech after him being fired:


http://www.anwaribrahim.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=45&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0


yeap,i dont buy the fact that Mr. Anwar did penetrate a man.but he doesn't deserve to rule malaysia either.PAS promised that Mr. Anwar would be made malaysian PM if he joins them.let's see how honest PAS is then.and this is for someone who called PAS as being honest.

but if you think i am dumb and brainless for my own state of mind,be that.for me,not only the so-called intelligent ppl support mr. anwar.those who have brains too may find him as a liquid man.changing from ABIM to UMNO and once called PAS worthless.that same man is needing their help now.

anwar should be released.but i dont want to see him leading our nation.nor do i wanna see Wan azizah as out 1st lady.

[weich]

hmm....after reading the letter....I'm already sympathising for him....sighz...guess that's life for us...always watch your back!

First time reading BM after like 5 years? hmm.....but what will happen if he's released?

[Diesel]

but what will happen if he's released?

he'll be free!! (the surprise of the century :P )

[Diesel]

[quote="phantom"]
yeap,i dont buy the fact that Mr. Anwar did penetrate a man.but he doesn't deserve to rule malaysia either.PAS promised that Mr. Anwar would be made malaysian PM if he joins them.let's see how honest PAS is then.and this is for someone who called PAS as being honest.
/quote]

does he deserve to be imprisoned for his speech?

[phantom]

no.as simple as that.

i think yall have been brainwashed by bn... anwar charged for sodomy? i think that's the most ridiculous thing ever... they should respect his private life.. let the one who has no sin cast the first stone.. what hypocrites!


While we might think sodomy and bisexuality are no big deals, the majority of Malaysians think it is.

Mahathir is a pretty smart guy, and he's not the kind of guy who removes a popular deputy, a deputy whom he has spent so much time grooming to be his successor -- unless of course there's something serious like sodomy that came up.

Other speculative reasons that have been put up are like Anwar is greedy for power and wants to kick Mahathir's cronies out. I find this unconvincing because Anwar knows that Mahathir is retiring soon (the original date was after the Commenwealth Games in 1998). It is therefore irrational for Anwar to challenge Mahathir near his retirement.

There has been political rumors about Anwar's bisexuality behavior since the mid-90's, in fact Karpal Singh brought is up in Parliament. But I believe Mahathir had not seen any serious charges/evidence at that time and must have thought that it's the usual political attacks on Anwar.

I've nothing against gays, but I think the overwhelming majority of Malaysians are gay-intolerant. If Anwar were actually a bisexual and became PM, he can be threatened by various groups like the CIA since everyone knows that Malaysians would not tolerate a gay-PM.

I'm not too sure what brought up enough evidence to convince Mahathir about Anwar's sodomy activities, but I think the police investigations into the book "Sepuluh Dalil Mengapa Anwar tidak boleh Jadi PM" (Ten reasons why Anwar disqualifies to become a PM), brought up some unanswered questions.

Some people say it's Anwar's worst political calculation to direct a police investigation into the book.

what next? are they gonna catch everyone they dont like on the grounds of moral impurity?


You might be surprised that homosexuality is still illegal in some states in the US. Recently in Texas, the police busted into a house of a gay couple making love -- shocking!

[josh]

when i first entered a boarding school (dont have to name my school) i knew this senior from my hometown and there was nothing weird about him.He was nice to everybody else...but after a few months he and another senior was expelled from the school because they were caught doing sex scene in the locker room..his partner is a guy...



p/s: they both scored 8A's in the PMR

[Thirdshifter]

I'm not too sure what brought up enough evidence to convince Mahathir about Anwar's sodomy activities, but I think the police investigations into the book "Sepuluh Dalil Mengapa Anwar tidak boleh Jadi PM" (Ten reasons why Anwar disqualifies to become a PM), brought up some unanswered questions..

Wasn't it 50? I remember reading it and most of the reason was ridiculuos.


Some people say it's Anwar's worst political calculation to direct a police investigation into the book.

I beg to differ. The book had cause many speculations and speculations don't stop until the real story behind the book came out.

However there is a possibilty that He might be gay but if that was the real reason to put a man behind bars for 15 years then i say there's soemthing really wrong in the picture.

I'm not an Anwar supporter but to just know how Malaysian judicial system doesn't even work for Anwar makes me wonder how would is it going to protect others.

I surely hope none of us here would be sent to prison based on rumours and speculations. There's absolutely more to this story but i wonder what it is, really.

Also recently the US Supreme courthad ruled the sodomy law in many States including texas to be unconstitutional.

However there is a possibilty that He might be gay but if that was the real reason to put a man behind bars for 15 years then i say there's soemthing really wrong in the picture.


Unfortunately, it is illegal to be gay in Malaysia. No matter whether you agree with the specific clauses of the law, I think it is unfair if a deputy PM is treated above the law.

[Thirdshifter]

However there is a possibilty that He might be gay but if that was the real reason to put a man behind bars for 15 years then i say there's soemthing really wrong in the picture.


Unfortunately, it is illegal to be gay in Malaysia. No matter whether you agree with the specific clauses of the law, I think it is unfair if a deputy PM is treated above the law.

I concur. However, the trial was obviously just to show people that Anwar was given a chance to denfend himself and show the world how democratic we are. While in the other had the verdict had already long been decided.

Anyone remeber how many conviction it was? I know dozens of them was thrown our in the firt few weeks.

He got 7 years for sodomy and 9 for threating national securty right?

[phantom]

when i first entered a boarding school (dont have to name my school) i knew this senior from my hometown and there was nothing weird about him.He was nice to everybody else...but after a few months he and another senior was expelled from the school because they were caught doing sex scene in the locker room..his partner is a guy...



p/s: they both scored 8A's in the PMR

look i know this is out of topic,but what is your point Mr. josh?

that gays dont have brains,act like perverts?that gays dont get 8a's in PMR and that gays are not social animals?

Mr. Anwar is a MCKK boy.a snobbish school for some,a prestigious for others.sure it gives birth to gays and bisex.these ppl get married becoz that's how our society runs.but that doesnt make e'body who graduated from that academia as gays.

to prince:didn't the doctor who examined Mr. Anwar's adik angkat said that he didn't find any penetration or whatsoever.

[Diesel]

"Sepuluh Dalil Mengapa Anwar tidak boleh Jadi PM" (Ten reasons why Anwar disqualifies to become a PM), brought up some unanswered questions.

yeah, it's actually 50 dalil. dude, did you actually read that book. i read it. haha, i thought it was written by kids.
yeah, it brought up some unanswered questions.
for example,
one of the dalil is,
"Anwar tak sepatutnya jadi pm kerana namanya member makna perang, Anwar= An War." An War?? An?? ha ha, that's the funniest sh** in that book.
just dont tell me that book is good. dont tell me that book brought up critical arguement. i think it's more like 50 BS u can say against anwar.

[Diesel]

However there is a possibilty that He might be gay but if that was the real reason to put a man behind bars for 15 years then i say there's soemthing really wrong in the picture.


Unfortunately, it is illegal to be gay in Malaysia. No matter whether you agree with the specific clauses of the law, I think it is unfair if a deputy PM is treated above the law.

I concur. However, the trial was obviously just to show people that Anwar was given a chance to denfend himself and show the world how democratic we are. While in the other had the verdict had already long been decided.

Anyone remeber how many conviction it was? I know dozens of them was thrown our in the firt few weeks.

He got 7 years for sodomy and 9 for threating national securty right?

i think he was carged of sodomy and bribery. i guess he was accused of bribing some people to cover up his sex scandal with that one lady. if i remember correctly.

[josh]

mr. phantom...

sorry i was in a hurry to class and didn't realize i forgot to emphasize my point...after anwar was accused of sodomizing his driver,i had a few debates with my friends and they strongly believed that anwar was innocent...this is because his appearance is considered warak, plus he was the leader of the ABIM(correct me if im wrong) and he used to mengimamkan jemaah in solat.....my friends said that a guy like him wont do such stupid thing...well,isn't there any slightest possibility that he is a gay????and Dr. M wasnt making things up...really hard to judge by just looking at someone's appearence...

[el_empty]

"Sepuluh Dalil Mengapa Anwar tidak boleh Jadi PM" (Ten reasons why Anwar disqualifies to become a PM), brought up some unanswered questions.

yeah, it's actually 50 dalil. dude, did you actually read that book. i read it. haha, i thought it was written by kids.
yeah, it brought up some unanswered questions.
for example,
one of the dalil is,
"Anwar tak sepatutnya jadi pm kerana namanya member makna perang, Anwar= An War." An War?? An?? ha ha, that's the funniest sh** in that book.
just dont tell me that book is good. dont tell me that book brought up critical arguement. i think it's more like 50 BS u can say against anwar.

here's an online version of 50 dalil. point form
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/3832/frame/50.html

a masterpiece...

[ElansarGelmir]

when i first entered a boarding school (dont have to name my school) i knew this senior from my hometown and there was nothing weird about him.He was nice to everybody else...but after a few months he and another senior was expelled from the school because they were caught doing sex scene in the locker room..his partner is a guy...


p/s: they both scored 8A's in the PMR

Ermmm... I think if they find him having sex with a girl, he would also be expelled. Coz i think it's illegal (according to school rules) to have sex in school, especially in boarding school.


Mr. Anwar is a MCKK boy.a snobbish school for some,a prestigious for others.sure it gives birth to gays and bisex.these ppl get married becoz that's how our society runs.but that doesnt make e'body who graduated from that academia as gays.

What's MCKK?

[ElansarGelmir]

here's an online version of 50 dalil. point form
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/3832/frame/50.html

#Digress
I think this 50 dalil thingy has a resemblance to the INTEC's Ethics text book- Insan dan Agama. All arguments are presented without convincing evidence nor further elaborations. IMHO, whoever believe this could have just believed that I can lick my elbow, if i claim so...
#Digress

[USSDefiantNX74205]

sorry i was in a hurry to class and didn't realize i forgot to emphasize my point...after anwar was accused of sodomizing his driver,i had a few debates with my friends and they strongly believed that anwar was innocent...this is because his appearance is considered warak, plus he was the leader of the ABIM(correct me if im wrong) and he used to mengimamkan jemaah in solat.....my friends said that a guy like him wont do such stupid thing...well,isn't there any slightest possibility that he is a gay????and Dr. M wasnt making things up...really hard to judge by just looking at someone's appearence...

Okay, unless I understand wrongly, the point here is that Anwar should be jailed for being a homosexual? There's insufficient proof and the evidence given was rather doubtful at best to prove that he's gay. But even if he really is gay, so what? Does that mean he can't be a leader?

[topdog]

LOL, if you say "So what if Anwar is gay?" you are either deluded or have spent too much time overseas. you think malaysians can accept a gay prime minister??? oh, i forgot, malaysia just turned into the asian bastion of liberalism yesterday.

[USSDefiantNX74205]

That's exactly the problem I was trying to highlight. Malaysians cant accept gays!

[el_empty]

mckk = malay college kuala kangsar

well,isn't there any slightest possibility that he is a gay????and Dr. M wasnt making things up...really hard to judge by just looking at someone's appearence...

i hate to be offensive, but you have to come out of your puny shell in the stone age! isn't there any slightest possibility that *you* are gay? - i think the police should arrest you too for being gay...

it seems to me you are so ready to refute your friends' sympathetic but naive claims, based on your even more naive assumptions - on the grounds that he *just might be gay*

Unfortunately, it is illegal to be gay in Malaysia. No matter whether you agree with the specific clauses of the law, I think it is unfair if a deputy PM is treated above the law.

why is it just anwar who gets to be treated accordingly by the law? why not the other superstar ministers who commit more serious offenses, both clandestinely and openly? if those ministers whom you and i know cannot be tried for the laws that they break, i refuse to accept this enormously lame excuse of sodomy and homosexuality as grounds for putting anwar behind bars.

[misled_youth]

I've heard first hand from a ex-UM grad that Anwar had "boyfriends" back then.
________
Avandia side effects (http://www.classactionsettlements.org/lawsuit/avandia/)

[phantom]

LOL.i think these boyfriends of him should come and give statement.let malaysian have some facts.but then again,anyone can hire ppl to lie.

is he truly a gay?or bisex?hard to digest.he looked really hideous when he was young,got men urgh wanna be his bfs?he was the UM students' president mah,sure banyak kawan.how these UM-grad of yours define the term boyfriends?

[__earth]

Mr. Anwar is a MCKK boy. a snobbish school for some...

ahh, after almost 5 years graduating from there, there are still ppl hating us.

What's MCKK?

finally, a person that doesn't hate us, yet.

why is it just anwar who gets to be treated accordingly by the law? why not the other superstar ministers who commit more serious offenses, both clandestinely and openly? if those ministers whom you and i know cannot be tried for the laws that they break, i refuse to accept this enormously lame excuse of sodomy and homosexuality as grounds for putting anwar behind bars.

There are certain unwritten laws in Malaysian politics and society. Polygamy is OK, otherwise tons of Datuks and prominent people would be behind bars by now. Corruption, to a certain extend, is permissible too, and extend to which it is permissible depends on your relationship with the authorities.

But, homosexuality is not. An average Malaysian would probably report their neighbour, or ostracize him, if they know he is gay, but most would not report their neighbour for keeping mistresses. Maybe it would be a kopitiam talk.

[masterof_none]

after following the debates, I come to the conclusion that there's nothing really to achieve in this endless debate that has been going on for almost a decade.

The Anwar charges itself has many versions.
He is charged of having homosexual relationship + corruption + don't know what else.

I think Malaysians have been very good in responding to that situation in 1997. In fact, the case has sparked some awareness within the government about check and balance. That means, we're moving towards more transparency in the government itself.
(e.g Pak Lah's movement to prevent corruption).

We should know that in the government like ours, we have to understand the sensitivity of some parties/religion/ethnicity. We know that the Muslims cannot tolerate the homosexuals (even some sects Christians here in the US.). It is not allowed. Please don't question God why He doesn't allowed it. It simply is.
For those believers, you just have to believe in it.

and we know that the Malaysian govt. runs by the Muslims + non-Muslims. I sometimes amazed at how Malaysians running their country.(compared to other Muslims coutries+ country in our region). Lots of people that I know (muslims and non-muslims alike) praise how our current govt run the country. However,I think the first thing we should do is to understand each other (and the politics of each race) In politics, there's no black and white. In politics, it is grey.

Let's take the US govt. decision to go to war. Some Americans believe that US govt is doing a good thing (at least intentionally) to liberate them from Saddam. Some say it's the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld interest in oil/business/construction or military weapon. Some don't even have any opinion.. or simply, "whatever". Should we even have the war in the first place?. Why and Why not?.. if Saddam is really a potential threat in the region, why not liberate the North Koreans who openly known to have developed the nuclear program.. is the US govt decision right?..are those lives in Iraq worth the war?. who knows the answer? I think even Bush doesn't know. I think Bush just copy Reagan's policy to get re-elected.

Similarly, why Dr M sacked Dato Anwar, is not known to us. Like Thirdshifter said. "speculation don't stop until the real story came out". I think what we can do now is just speculating. But what we need, actually, is to reflect what happen and move on. Constructively.
we want to have the win/win situation in the Malaysian society. (and we know that we cannot please everyone.) so, some might lose , some might win.. but we can minimize the damage whenever we can.

Any govt, usually, is corrupt. take our region. Indonesia, Philiphines, take India.. those are well known.. we can talk about the govt corruption.. but what's left for us is to change it.

because humans run the government.. not computers. if computers run the govt. , I think we can achieve the 100% error free. (iff there are no bugs in the program). But can it be? Even the ideal computer cannot run free of error. because it is humans who created it.. and humans are full of error.

For me, the Anwar case make me wonder. If Malaysians want to create a better Malaysia..should we use join the riots in the street?.Or should we understand each other and create a better society? Or should we do both?. It's up to us. As long as we have the intention to create a better Malaysia. But debates like this is a good start.
(but of course, we're looking for more improvement as we progress).

[topdog]

after following the debates, I come to the conclusion that there's nothing really to achieve in this endless debate that has been going on for almost a decade.

holy cow! i didn't realize it has been that long. time flies.

[Diesel]

There are certain unwritten laws in Malaysian politics and society. Polygamy is OK, otherwise tons of Datuks and prominent people would be behind bars by now.

Polygamy is not just OK, it's legal man!! At least it's legal among muslims. What's wrong with it?

[ElansarGelmir]

There are certain unwritten laws in Malaysian politics and society. Polygamy is OK, otherwise tons of Datuks and prominent people would be behind bars by now.

Polygamy is not just OK, it's legal man!! At least it's legal among muslims. What's wrong with it?

Hmmm... How come guys can polygamy while women can't?

I think homosexuality is still being banned in Malaysia. I'd come across a news few years back that a couple were arrested by the police after their neighbors alleged a report claiming that they were gaying in a house... But i think unmarried man and woman would be arrested too, right (if they are in the house together fooling around)?

[oxherd]

Hmmm... How come guys can polygamy while women can't?

I think homosexuality is still being banned in Malaysia. I'd come across a news few years back that a couple were arrested by the police after their neighbors alleged a report claiming that they were gaying in a house... But i think unmarried man and woman would be arrested too, right (if they are in the house together fooling around)?

Polygamy is permitted for men, but not women, under the Syariah law of Malaysia. Unmarried man and women - khalwat, also an offence under syariah law. Although of course recently, this has also become an offence for non-Muslims in a controversial case.

I believe all of this is applicable only in context of Muslims. I do not know of any of my gay Chinese friends who have been arrested by the police, nor am I aware of any case brought against non-Muslim men in this context.

[oxherd]

I have read an account by a Western political analyst giving another possible reason for Anwar?s dismissal. Apparently Anwar (Finance Minister at that time) was strongly in support for IMF reforms, which Mahathir thought would have lead to the all out collapse of our economy (the way it did in Indonesia). Since Anwar had considerable support in the Malay community with his Islamic credentials, it would make sense to discredit him with allegations (true or otherwise) of homosexuality via the sodomy charges. History has vindicated Mahathir with respect to the correct path out of the economic crisis, but of course that doesn?t completely justify the injustice perpetuated to him.

I would agree with Prince?s contention that it would be highly inadvisable for a Malaysian PM to be a closeted gay, precisely because it is widely unacceptable in our society and would hence make him a risk to potential compromise from foreign parties. That of course does not mean that it was right for him to go to jail as well.

As for the possibility of closeted gay people serving in lesser political posts, I think the case of Azalina Othman provides a possible exception. The key thing here is the willingness to toe the line of the party and support it. This clearly wasn?t the case with Anwar, whose liberal economic policies had probably been antagonistic to Mahathir from early on.

[ElansarGelmir]

I believe all of this is applicable only in context of Muslims
They were Indians though.


Polygamy is not just OK, it's legal man!! At least it's legal among muslims. What's wrong with it?

Polygamy is permitted for men, but not women, under the Syariah law of Malaysia.

What I mean is, what's the rational behind this? I mean, why can a guy marry with 4 women while he expects his wife to remain loyal to him and only him? i think this is a slap to all feminists...

[pandaboy]

What I mean is, what's the rational behind this? I mean, why can a guy marry with 4 women while he expects his wife to remain loyal to him and only him? i think this is a slap to all feminists...

i read it somewhere...about during the wars where guys have to join the army for battle...so they can marry more for certain purposes......bla bla...i think the muslims should know this better. Maybe someone can elaborate on this? But anyway, i think we should adapt to the situation. Polygamy is meant for those days....but for now? I think it is very unfair for the females.

[topdog]

can we not turn this into a discussion on religion? elansar, please ask your question in the appropriate thread, i.e. "women's rights in islam." you're hijacking the thread.

[oxherd]

I believe all of this is applicable only in context of Muslims
They were Indians though.


Really ? Ok that's it, no way in hell I'm going back home ;)


What I mean is, what's the rational behind this? I mean, why can a guy marry with 4 women while he expects his wife to remain loyal to him and only him? i think this is a slap to all feminists...

Well post to the forum on 'Women's rights and Islam' then. I think Sisters in Islam probably agree with you, and have made some arguments on this point.

[topdog]

As for the possibility of closeted gay people serving in lesser political posts, I think the case of Azalina Othman provides a possible exception. The key thing here is the willingness to toe the line of the party and support it.
that, and also to remain closeted.

i've heard stories about azalina othman. probably nothing you haven't heard already though.

[topdog]

yeah, it's actually 50 dalil. dude, did you actually read that book. i read it. haha, i thought it was written by kids.

sweet jesus, i just read the first 5 dalil. i can't imagine how they came up with 45 more.

3. ...Begitu juga beliau mengadakan tekanan terhadap Rahim Tamby Chik sehingga memaksanya meletakkan sebagai Ketua Menteri Melaka
lol...so they painted that child rapist as a victim.

do people really believe this rubbish?

[USSDefiantNX74205]

i've heard stories about azalina othman. probably nothing you haven't heard already though.

I haven't really heard anything much about her. Care to share what you know, topdog? Or anyone else for that matter?

[oxherd]

i've heard stories about azalina othman. probably nothing you haven't heard already though.

I haven't really heard anything much about her. Care to share what you know, topdog? Or anyone else for that matter?

I think the point I was trying to make is that the situation for Azalina (where an author had written allegations about her lesbian affair) was initially the same for Anwar (50 dalil), with the difference that both got radically different treatments, Azalina being supported instead.

http://www.malaysiakini.com.my/letters/200205100032436.php

Not of course, that I have any problem with her being a lesbian or otherwise ;)

[ElansarGelmir]

Hehe, sorry. Digression is inevitable sometimes... I apologize again...


I think the point I was trying to make is that the situation for Azalina (where an author had written allegations about her lesbian affair) was initially the same for Anwar (50 dalil), with the difference that both got radically different treatments, Azalina being supported instead.

Hmm.. Juz put it this way... If the govt wants to fire you, they will dig up every single excuse to get you out of their office. However, if you prove to be their asset, or you have nothing against them, then they won't even care what you do, who or what you copulate with, as long as you don't show it in public.