Mandatory Uniformed Bodies

[misled_youth]

Now Mandatory For Secondary Students To Join Uniformed Bodies

KUALA LUMPUR, May 14 (Bernama) -- The Cabinet has made it mandatory, effective immediately, for secondary students to join at least one uniformed body in their school in an effort to mould well-rounded Malaysians right from school-going years.

The Deputy Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak told reporters here Friday that presently only 57 per cent of the secondary student population were members of uniformed corps in schools.

Najib said:"As the directive is effective now, schools must take the initiative. We target to attain 100 per cent participation in an effort to mould a resilient younger generation."

The deputy prime minister was speaking after opening the 2004 national youth convention organised by the Malaysian Youth Council in conjunction with Youth Day which is observed Saturday.

Najib said National Service trainees who have completed their stint would be encouraged to participate in activities run by the Youth and Sports Ministry, including the Rakan Muda programme, to help prepare them for challenges ahead through inculcation of values and virtues


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Observations:

1. Anyone remember when this was attempted before? Anyone? Read answer below.

2. Kononnya diorang nok didik budak-budak "values and virtues", sedangkan DPM kita seorang womeniser. Who is he to tell us right from wrong?

3. 57%? Ya ke? Politikus ni tau kira ke?

Want to learn something interesting? Ask your parents, elders, friends, MP's about Najib's tertiary education and the circumstances of his graduation. You'll be surprised. Can't post anything here. Nanti kena buang masuk Kem Tahanan Kamunting (tapi sumber sumber kate diorang warden pandai masak rendang).

Points to ponder

A. Do we have enough resources (e.g. Teachers, funding, campsites) to get 100% participation of youths in uniformed programs?

B. What can be done to punish them?

C. You can bring a horse to the water, but can you force it to drink?

Answer to question 1 - NAJIB TUN RAZAK!

He came out with this idea when he was then Education Minister. Don't believe? Email your Secondary school cikgu.


People... friends... and those who thinks i'm an @<hidden>$$hole... this sounds cliche, but "We've got to take the power back", and "Power to the people!". (Credit Rage Against the Machine and John Lennon).
________
Sunset Boulevard Residence 2 Prathumnak (http://pattayaluxurycondos.com)

[hungwei]

errr...where's the article which mentioned the possiblity of NS being abolished?

[Randomphantom]

uniform body != no more NS.

On the contrary, he might expect students having gone through disciplinary training in uniform body to cause 'less' problems in NS. 'Find the root causes' kononnya...

I remember one time when they tried to make uniform body mandatory. It was scrapped pretty quickly, and most (my friends) got themselves out of the uni bodies after that.

[ElansarGelmir]

uniform body != no more NS.

On the contrary, he might expect students having gone through disciplinary training in uniform body to cause 'less' problems in NS. 'Find the root causes' kononnya...

I remember one time when they tried to make uniform body mandatory. It was scrapped pretty quickly, and most (my friends) got themselves out of the uni bodies after that.

Uniform bodies ain't that bad, i think. It's only that not all Malaysia teachers in charge are dilligent and commited to the bodies that they are responsible for, coz they have to take care of the student's academic progress and some of them are LAZEE. And each generation of the uniform bodies is getting less skilled (due to restriction of activities, lesser time allocated for these activities, academic commitments and etc). That's why most people don't see the benefit of joinning these activities, especially to parents that still hold the belief that their children should study at least 4 hours a day...

[misled_youth]

Point is whether it is realistic to "force" all students to join uniformed bodies. What's the point of "forcing" them? Imagine having an army full of unwilling people. If they win a war against their emotions, how to defeat enemy?
________
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[ElansarGelmir]

Point is whether it is realistic to "force" all students to join uniformed bodies. What's the point of "forcing" them? Imagine having an army full of unwilling people. If they win a war against their emotions, how to defeat enemy?

I think Penang made it compulsory for all students to join 1 uniform body, 1 society and 1 sports. initially, i was one of those who cursed at this ridiculous system. However, looking back at my memories in my uniform movement, all i can say is that it really gives me lots of benefits. If those people don't want to join the uniform body, i think they will have a way to get out of it. Making it compulsory means exposing uniform bodies to students with stubborn mindset that uniform bodies are just a waste of time and etc. If one is free to join or defer from participating in a uniform body, chances are that they wouldn't even give it a try. After all, there's so many uniform bodies to choose from. And i think that a holistic education system can be achieved by having uniform bodies.

[deaf-knee]

IMHO, uniformed bodies are fun and everything. That's IMHO anyway. :)

[__earth]

IMO, somebody need to change the topic of the thread. it's totally a misnomer.

[DecentMerson]

Point is whether it is realistic to "force" all students to join uniformed bodies. What's the point of "forcing" them? Imagine having an army full of unwilling people. If they win a war against their emotions, how to defeat enemy?

I think Penang made it compulsory for all students to join 1 uniform body, 1 society and 1 sports. initially, i was one of those who cursed at this ridiculous system. However, looking back at my memories in my uniform movement, all i can say is that it really gives me lots of benefits. If those people don't want to join the uniform body, i think they will have a way to get out of it. Making it compulsory means exposing uniform bodies to students with stubborn mindset that uniform bodies are just a waste of time and etc. If one is free to join or defer from participating in a uniform body, chances are that they wouldn't even give it a try. After all, there's so many uniform bodies to choose from. And i think that a holistic education system can be achieved by having uniform bodies.

same over here in secondary school in KL and Selangor... Students are made compulsory to join a Uniform body, a society and a sports club...but hey... most of these clubs are kids play... with those irresponsible guru penasihat...and we need to do is to have 8 meetings a year, submit reports, collect funds, organise lame projects and that's all... follow what the seniors did...

for most of the teacher, no activity = good news.... becoz
no activity=> no problem
no problem=> no extra workload and no extra responsibility....

[jiinjoo]

same over here in secondary school in KL and Selangor... Students are made compulsory to join a Uniform body, a society and a sports club...

Yeah, that happened in 1996, still remember involving in the long winded "relaunch ceremony" for Selangor's uniform body implementation. They wasted so much money to bring everyone for an expensive uniform body showcase, which I think serve no purpose (except giving us yet more legitimate reasons to ponteng class).

And not long after that someone in my school made the Chinese Orchestra a uniform body too! i.e. they have to march a bit, and have ranks etc. trying to look more like we pancaragam, I wonder what happened since then.


Actually, misled_youth, let me give you a simple question to ponder over too: What makes you think that this is a unilateral decision made by Najib, and not a response to the current situation in our society? Anyone?

[misled_youth]

Actually, misled_youth, let me give you a simple question to ponder over too: What makes you think that this is a unilateral decision made by Najib, and not a response to the current situation in our society? Anyone?

I'm a propagandist in training. I speak half truths. No lies. Only half truths. You have to fill in the blanks yourself. Coz you guys are "smart".

Next, CAN YOU PEOPLE STOP CHANGING THE TOPICS OF MY THREADS? *sigh... as Marshall McLuhan once said, "The Medium is the Message".
________
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[qedx]

making it compulsory to join a unifomed body is stupid. kids should have a choice whether or not they want to join any kind of organization. making it compulsory to join 3 different organizations is even worse IMO.

if you HAVE to make joining something compulsory, make it only 1 (ONE) organization. if the kid wants to join more, more power to him. but forcing people to join multiple organizations... well nonvolunteers are usually resentful and try their very best to get out of work. I speak from experience :D

[__earth]

Actually, misled_youth, let me give you a simple question to ponder over too: What makes you think that this is a unilateral decision made by Najib, and not a response to the current situation in our society? Anyone?

I'm a propagandist in training. I speak half truths. No lies. Only half truths. You have to fill in the blanks yourself. Coz you guys are "smart".

Next, CAN YOU PEOPLE STOP CHANGING THE TOPICS OF MY THREADS? *sigh... as Marshall McLuhan once said, "The Medium is the Message".

Marshall McLuhan is dead. =)

[deaf-knee]

I think joining 3 different clubs isn't that bad, it will just make you more well-rounded. Think about it. One uniform body (you get disciplined), one normal club (say you join leo/interact, community service is good for you. and you learn how to organise things) then there's sports (exercise!).

I doubt it would take up THAT much of your time. :)

Eh?

:)

[ElansarGelmir]

I think joining 3 different clubs isn't that bad, it will just make you more well-rounded. Think about it. One uniform body (you get disciplined), one normal club (say you join leo/interact, community service is good for you. and you learn how to organise things) then there's sports (exercise!).

I doubt it would take up THAT much of your time. :)

Eh?

:)

Hmmm... That's why it helps our education system to be more holistic.


but hey... most of these clubs are kids play... with those irresponsible guru penasihat...and we need to do is to have 8 meetings a year, submit reports, collect funds, organise lame projects and that's all... follow what the seniors did...

Now, the problem doesn't lie on the clubs, but rather, on the teachers and students, coz they have no particular interest in the clubs they are joining. Most of them join the clubs because it's easier for them to get a position in the club. And they have no idea what's it all about. And for some, they have to paksarela join the club because the club that they want to join is already saturated. And for teachers, yes, they do not want extra work. Because to them, it shouldn't be their work in the first place. Their job is to teach, not to oversee clubs and stuffs. This will bring us to the need of changing the mindset of our teachers.

I believe, for uniform bodies, there should be at least a standardized syllabus/activities for the same uniform body in Malaysia. Coz certain uniform bodies in certain schools have different kinds of activities or syllabus from the same uniform body in another school. So one may feel this uniform body is beneficial, while the other from the other school may think the otherwise. Take for example the Red Cross. In my school, i believe the Red Cross concentrates on marching much more than it should have. That's why during school prize giving day, instead of giving first aid to those who are not well, many of them fall ill or fainted while the YAB is giving his speech. That's not what they should be doing, right? They are not serving the core purpose of Red Cross anymore. That's why a standardize syllabus should be there to ensure that they do not overdo it.

[misled_youth]

One of the things we must consider is LOGISTICS.

- How to get ALL students to join?

- How to ensure ALL students, attend meetings regularly? No point being an ahli tidur.

- What would school do with the traunts?

- Not all students can afford to be active participants. Gov loans? etc.

Very typical of gohmen to come up with such policies. Even though I'm in Australia, I can hear my school teachers groaning already.

This move goes against the spirit of voluntarism. It's unhealthy.

What's the difference from this move to conscription in North Korea?

Gov should ENCOURAGE kids to join, not force them.

You can bring a cow to the water, but not force them to drink

Who's with me?

Maybe ReCom can do another "press release" on this. I'm doing PR. I'd be happy to proof read it for ReCom.
________
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[ElansarGelmir]

You can bring a cow to the water, but not force them to drink

If you don't bring the cow to the water, will it taste water? Who knows maybe the cow likes it?


How to ensure ALL students, attend meetings regularly? No point being an ahli tidur.

Do it to them the same thing as we do during school hours. This case can be considered ponteng. Perhaps by that way, parents will see how serious the govt is towards uniform bodies.


- Not all students can afford to be active participants.

Now, that's the responsibilitiy of the teacher in charge, parents, seniors, and their peers alike. Do not ostracize the poor chaps in any activities. Include them. Pay a little attention to every members. That's how we can stimulate their interests in the uniform bodies.


I don't think there's any major problem with uniform bodies. The only problem that is still prevalent to this days is seniors who like to flaunt their ranks and take full advantage of juniors. That's really wrong.

[USSDefiantNX74205]

I'm with you on this, misled_youth. Having uniformed bodies means having students voluntarily joining it. Forcing everyone to join will only result in half-hearted members. If this is indeed what the govt wants, then I'm not sure what they're up to this time.

If you don't bring the cow to the water, will it taste water? Who knows maybe the cow likes it?

That's not really the point is it? Seriously, what will you do if you were forced to join something that you don't like at all or have completely no interest in? You may argue that a person might like it if they are forced to join a uniformed body (based on the 'never try, never know' saying) and discovers its wonders. But it can also go the other way round. What if the person doesn't like it at all after he/she joins a uniformed body?

To me, forcing someone into something just isn't right. I've been a victim of my school's policy on this and I remember joining St John's Ambulance just to get the the school authorities off my back. So what exactly is the point of forcing people into this?

[qedx]

I think joining 3 different clubs isn't that bad, it will just make you more well-rounded. Think about it. One uniform body (you get disciplined), one normal club (say you join leo/interact, community service is good for you. and you learn how to organise things) then there's sports (exercise!).

I doubt it would take up THAT much of your time. :)

Eh?

:)

if you want to join 3 different clubs it's no problem. hell, if you want to and have the time, join 10, 20, 50 clubs for all i care. but if you don't want to join it's a whole different issue. Forcing people to do something they dont want to do is a no-no.

[The_Observer]

I always liked to use Communist China as an example. Not that it is no longer purely communist now...but...

Back then, any trouble maker would be jailed forever (+ hard labor) or shot at the back of the head for being an 'enemy of the people'
The Government will even bill the cost of the bullet to the family of the victim.
And it was a great example to curb certain miscreants in society.

Perhaps our Government should implement relevant policies to curb problems. 'Uniformed bodies', my dear Mr. Najib is not enough!!!
Fear has always been a great teacher to man.

'I don't care if they hate us, as long as they fear us'
-Caligula

[__earth]

I always liked to use Communist China as an example. Not that it is no longer purely communist now...but...

Back then, any trouble maker would be jailed forever (+ hard labor) or shot at the back of the head for being an 'enemy of the people'
The Government will even bill the cost of the bullet to the family of the victim.
And it was a great example to curb certain miscreants in society.

Perhaps our Government should implement relevant policies to curb problems. 'Uniformed bodies', my dear Mr. Najib is not enough!!!
Fear has always been a great teacher to man.

'I don't care if they hate us, as long as they fear us'
-Caligula

what are you implying actually?
introduce harsher rule to the people?

[The_Observer]

Legalism works doesn't it? The ancients do teach us a lot of stuff.

Hard tasks need hard ways.

Most efforts of the modern world are overly idealistic and helps only a minor part of society. Suffice to say, most people actually don't even give any s*** about it.
Do you actually think that the future rapists, mobsters, molesters, etc. etc. can be avoided through such subtle ways?
I wish they could but most of the times we humans leave ourselves in a position where we are at an impasse.

Why not a proven method which is more universal and of course, more cost-effective?
Harsher rule? So be it, if it is the best way to deal with our problems. No need to beat around the bush...

Want to talk about human rights? Tell that to all the victims of crime out there when it happens. I guarantee you a nice and friendly chat.

[ElansarGelmir]

To me, forcing someone into something just isn't right. I've been a victim of my school's policy on this and I remember joining St John's Ambulance just to get the the school authorities off my back. So what exactly is the point of forcing people into this?


So what if someone's not interested in studying since young? Make it not compulsory for them not to go to school? Have them do whatever they want? Still, children need to get education. That's why it's sort of important to have them going to school.

Hmm... I believe your school has more than a St. John, right? Why join St John then if you're not interested in it?

[__earth]

Why not a proven method which is more universal and of course, more cost-effective?
Harsher rule? So be it, if it is the best way to deal with our problems. No need to beat around the bush...

Want to talk about human rights? Tell that to all the victims of crime out there when it happens. I guarantee you a nice and friendly chat.

i dont think this is the place to discuss either about human rights or introducing harsher law. the thread is about the uniformed body.

let's stay on course and not hijack the topic.

[The_Observer]

Yeah, sorry for that...

I was just thinking the long term goals of uniformed bodies.

But yeah. To stay on course.
My vote: No compulsory participation. Pure and simple voluntary.
Reason: Waste of resources with not much apparent results. I mean in relation to solving national problems not building up of character, etc.

[gohweihan]

So what if someone's not interested in studying since young? Make it not compulsory for them not to go to school? Have them do whatever they want? Still, children need to get education. That's why it's sort of important to have them going to school.

Comparing schooling to extra curricular activities (particularly joining uniformed bodies) is just not right. Studying is the primary reason for one to be in school and is also the primary reason for a school to be established, while ECAs are just there as extra activities to help balance out the situation in school.

Joining uniformed bodies is a good idea (although not important), but it is also about freedom of choice on whether they want to join or not. The fact is, there is no substantial benefit (from the point of view of a student) to join in these bodies. Entry requirements into public universities today no longer includes these involvements. Private colleges on the other hand just want the money of the students, not the grades or participation in uniformed bodies or other ECAs. The same goes to foreign universities who accept Malaysian qualifications.

Therefore, the only thing left as a pulling factor for students to join in these ECAs (including uniformed bodies), is the relevance of the activities carried out to the students, and how interesting these activities are. If these clubs, societies, units and bodies come up with activities that are boring and uninteresting, then you cannot blame the students for not joining, as there is already no reason for them to join in ECAs, and joining them is merely a bonus to the ECA system.

The table had been turned. It is no longer about the students needing ECAs, but the ECAs needing participation from the student. The students know that, and unless a review of this system is done, the situation will continue to become worse. Simple actions like reviving ECA participation as a factor in determinng public university entrance would change things a lot.

[qedx]

why would we want to artificially revive ECAs by making it a requirement for higher education? Things that are neither interesting nor beneficial should just disappear.

[ElansarGelmir]

Comparing schooling to extra curricular activities (particularly joining uniformed bodies) is just not right. Studying is the primary reason for one to be in school and is also the primary reason for a school to be established, while ECAs are just there as extra activities to help balance out the situation in school.

ECA/CCAs are part of education. While studying actually educates our minds, the former shapes us to who we are and educate us the basic skills that we need to keep alive in the real world. Through these activities, we learn how to interact with people around us. Through ECA/CCAs, we acquire leadership experience. Through ECA/CCAs, we discover our hidden talents (not everyone wakes up in the morning and discover them).

If these clubs, societies, units and bodies come up with activities that are boring and uninteresting, then you cannot blame the students for not joining, as there is already no reason for them to join in ECAs, and joining them is merely a bonus to the ECA system.

To make them interesting is the duty of all members of the clubs. Participate those activities with high ardent. If everyone goes around grumbling, "this sux", of course the activities will be a humdrum one, and a total failure indeed. Btw, no one stops the members from suggesting new activities, or organize those activities themselves (if they are relevant and agreed by majority). Unless every member expects the committee board (who are in the postition merely for CCA points and not passion) to feed them with spates of boring activities, then there is no reason for all clubs to be mediocre and dormant. And i believe amidst the sleeping societies in the school, there should be at least a couple of active CCAs running madly around the school, unless you're trying to say that the school's students are total mugger toads?

Let's be realistic. If the students have no obligations to join CCAs/ uniform bodies, chances are, lesser people will go for these CCAs (most students fail to see the long term benefits from CCAs and are only interested in their immediate concerns - studies), and these CCAs can't run actively without high participations from their members. And that will cause these CCAs to be less active.

I was one of those who actually hated the idea of CCAs made compulsory in my school. I couldn't even count the times I played truant on these CCAs. However, now i realize if i were not made to join these CCAs, I would certainly have not joined any during my school days and do not see how much i had learnt from these CCAs.

[gohweihan]

ECA/CCAs are part of education. While studying actually educates our minds, the former shapes us to who we are and educate us the basic skills that we need to keep alive in the real world. Through these activities, we learn how to interact with people around us. Through ECA/CCAs, we acquire leadership experience. Through ECA/CCAs, we discover our hidden talents (not everyone wakes up in the morning and discover them).

No matter how important you and I view ECAs to be, it remains a fact that you can have schools without ECAs, but not have ECAs without schools. So the main thing here is that parents send their children to school to study in classrooms, not participate in ECAs as the main priority of schooling.

To make them interesting is the duty of all members of the clubs. Participate those activities with high ardent. If everyone goes around grumbling, "this sux", of course the activities will be a humdrum one, and a total failure indeed. Btw, no one stops the members from suggesting new activities, or organize those activities themselves (if they are relevant and agreed by majority). Unless every member expects the committee board (who are in the postition merely for CCA points and not passion) to feed them with spates of boring activities, then there is no reason for all clubs to be mediocre and dormant. And i believe amidst the sleeping societies in the school, there should be at least a couple of active CCAs running madly around the school, unless you're trying to say that the school's students are total mugger toads?

We all have to agree that not all students are mugger toads. I myself is one of these people who were actively involved in ECAs in school.

Yet there is one thing I learnt - no matter how intersting the activities you may plan for the students, the students just do not care. They do not realize the importance of ECAs, and neither do they want to make the effort to realize. Participation in ECAs in my former school continues to be small - only a handful of students participate, and this equates to a zero-growth in participation annually.

Let's be realistic. If the students have no obligations to join CCAs/ uniform bodies, chances are, lesser people will go for these CCAs (most students fail to see the long term benefits from CCAs and are only interested in their immediate concerns - studies), and these CCAs can't run actively without high participations from their members. And that will cause these CCAs to be less active.

That is the reality of today, and therefore, there should be methods to counter this problem. Immediate attention should be given to methods to increase participation in ECAs, and then change the mindset of students to view the benefits of ECAs - that these benefits outweights the concern of not getting straight 1 As in their SPM or straight As in STPM.

Right now, there are 3 ways to solve the problem. Firstly, there is the method of force, in which all students are forced to join ECAs. Failure to comply will result in punishments that are meted out directly to the student (for example not being able to graduate middle school).

Secondly, there is the method of the carrot. By tying the carrot to the stick, there is a possibility that the government might be able to tempt those who are previously uninterested into joining. This includes giving benefits to those who join ECAs in school (like considering ECA involvement as a requirement to enter public universities).

Thirdly, there could be a revive of the ECA system, in which a dedicated few from each school work to come up with activities that are interesting and beneficial (from the point of view of students) so that the students join them on their own free will. This is the best method, but it requires the dedication of a pioneer batch to come up with the activities. This method is akin to the concept of "by students for students".

Unfortunately, we cannot rely on the third method, and that is why I suggested the second method. A combination of both the second and third will be able to pull people into ECA - some with true intentions, while some who join because of the benefits in the future. Nevertheless, it will boost ECA involvements in school and most importantly, allow for a shift of the mindsets of the students who view ECAs as not important.

Therefore, if students joins ECAs because of the future benefits they will have, there is a possibility that the government can slowly shift the student's mindset from seeing these future benefits (like university entrance) to the true benefits and intentions of ECAs (like leadership skills, etc.).

I was one of those who actually hated the idea of CCAs made compulsory in my school. I couldn't even count the times I played truant on these CCAs. However, now i realize if i were not made to join these CCAs, I would certainly have not joined any during my school days and do not see how much i had learnt from these CCAs.

Since you are one of those, you had just became a living proof of what I've said. It remains true today that most students do not see the long term benefits of ECA.

Today, the situation is such that ECA is not a priority because the government doesn't cares anymore about ECA. JPA scholarships are given out to people who only get straight 1 As, while university entry requirements does not include ECA participation.

As I've said, I was one who participated a lot in ECAs when in school (although no uniformed bodies) not because I'm forced to, but because I enjoy them. My ECA list covers two pages in length and includes involvement in activities, projects and work that are at levels not many would be able to achieve or do. Yet although I got straight As in the SPM, the government did not give me the JPA scholarship. This is one reason why people see ECA as not important. When the government makes examples out of people like me, the mindset of the society automatically changes to view academic qualification as the only way to suceed in life. It may sound naive, but it is the fact.

[The_Observer]

ECAs also seperates the wheat from the chaff.

Here is where we can find real human potential.

An all-rounder achiever. More of them (provided the Government do something to prevent them from being headhunted) would do our country much good.
We should give our children every chance to develop their real, and I mean REAL, potential.

[qedx]

what about the people who dont want to be any good to anyone? they have rights too!!!

[The_Observer]

A dead person also don't have much use for society, do it?

Its 1 way or the other.
Individual over the community or community over the individual.
Democracy vs Socialism.

Who will win?

[Randomphantom]

ECAs also seperates the wheat from the chaff.

Here is where we can find real human potential.

An all-rounder achiever. More of them (provided the Government do something to prevent them from being headhunted) would do our country much good.
We should give our children every chance to develop their real, and I mean REAL, potential.

Separating the wheat from the chaff. Dangling that proverbial carrot to lure them into uniform bodies. Meaning, more people will be induced to join these uniform bodies with the sole intent to up the ante on academic transcripts instead of doing it out of pure interest. There shouldn't be any singular measure to an individual's excellence, and certainly not involvement in uniform activities.

Everyone should be given their freedom, and i stress freedom, to explore their true potential in different avenues. Enforcing uniform bodies on them when they go about it unwillingly, would be restricting them of their available time/resources, which would be better spent pursuing other fields of potential for them.

I personally dislike *some* people participating in uniform bodies where they form their tight 'elite cliques', thinking that a title lends them status (so called wheat from the chaff) and a license to being snobbish. My advice to those forced to entering uniform bodies: be part of the group in charge or you will be left out. No use complaining about cronyism here.

[misled_youth]

I can see that we have clearly two groups discussing this topic:

1. Critical Thinkiers
2. BN 'yes-men'

Keep it up.
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[masterof_none]

I can see that we have clearly two groups discussing this topic:

1. Critical Thinkiers
2. BN 'yes-men'


Keep it up.

We're interested in discussing the issue, not labeling people. If you want to label people, and , expect everyone to be like you, then, I afraid you're not living in the real world.

I don't know why people should be labeled, people who agree with BN as "BN-yes-man". If they agree with the BN proposal,that's his/her right. Why should we bother?, as long as he presented his/her argument. and it's up to us to agree with them or not.

and, if you disagree with BN proposal, tell us why you think so. Don't quickly making assumption about people.Please don't simply label people around. It's not healthy.

[ElansarGelmir]

I can see that we have clearly two groups discussing this topic:

1. Critical Thinkiers
2. BN 'yes-men'

Keep it up.

Agreeing with one of BN's proposal doesn't mean that we are BN dogs. Remember, in Recom, no one's absolutely right or wrong. So don't assume those who don't agree at the same direction as you can't think.