Post NS Survey: statistics [Archive]

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misled_youth

24-05-2004, 06:21 PM

"Thumbs Up" From Trainees For First NS Series

KUALA LUMPUR, May 24 (Bernama) -- A majority of participants in the first series of National Service (NS) training have given the thumbs up for the programme, said Deputy Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak.

He said the trainees agreed that the NS programme had inculcated understanding among the multi-ethnic youths who took part in the training apart from boosting patriotism among them.

Najib said a survey held among NS trainees showed 86 per cent of the respondents found that the programme had boosted multiracial unity and 78 per cent said it improved patriotism.

The first series of the three-month NS training programme began last Feb 16.

"The survey shows the programme is supported by a majority of the trainees and there is no question that it is a flop and should be put off," he told a news conference at the Parliament here Monday.

He said the 20-point questionaires were distributed to 6,153 respondents or 24 per cent of the 25,867 participants of the NS programme first series.

He said Malays made up 69 per cent of the trainees, Chinese (21 per cent), Indians (7 per cent), Sabah and Sarawak Bumiputera (one per cent each) and others (one per cent).

Najib said analysis of each reply from the respondents showed the NS programme managed to improve unity and character of the trainees.

He said 83 per cent of the respondents said the programme helped to mould discipline and endurance and 79 per cent said the programme trained them to be the country's future leaders.

Some 87 per cent were in the opinion that the NS programme gave them new skills and knowledge, he said.

Najib said 77 per cent of the respondents agreed that the programme taught them the importance of doing volunteer work while 76 per cent said the programme had increased their commitment to defend the country.

"The outcome of the survey will be made the basis for any future review of the NS programme by the government," he said.

The other findings of the survey are -- call for the programme to be extended to over three months (55 per cent), involve both male and female trainees (76 per cent) and whole module to be held at camps (42 per cent).

Some 23 per cent of the trainees called for the whole NS programme to be conducted at university campuses while 59 per cent showed interest to become NS trainers.

On complaints from several NS trainers that they had yet to be paid their allowances, Najib said he expected the issue to be resolved this week after some technical glitches were ironed out.

On the call by Opposition Leader Lim Kit Siang for the government to set up a Select Committee to discuss national integration, Najib said the government was looking into the proposal.

Earlier, to a question from Datuk Hasan Malek (BN-Kuala Pilah) in the Dewan Rakyat, Najib said the number of delinquent trainees at the NS camps was less than one per cent of the total number of participants.

He said they were youths who had disciplinary problems even before they were called up for the NS programme.

"It is hoped that their behaviour will change after they attend the NS training," said Najib.

-- BERNAMA
http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v3/news.php?id=68882

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misled_youth is a big anti-NS advocate. This time however, I can't comment on the results of the survey.

I will try to take a look at the questions first.

What do you guys think of the data Najib collected? NS a success?

Should we continue NS?

OK, here are some NON POLITICAL statistical aspects which those of you who knows statistics should consider: PLEASE DON"T POLITICISE

1. Is the sample size big enough?
2. What testing method did they use?

Can't remember stats 101 I learn last year. I hope you guys can think of some good question then I will email them to Opposition MP's and they can grill Najib in Parliament. Remember! Najib has always been lousy in school! Unlikely he can tackle tough statistical questions on the fly!

Let's do our part people in ensuring democracy! Let's put our education into good use.
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__earth

24-05-2004, 11:37 PM

OK, here are some NON POLITICAL statistical aspects which those of you who knows statistics should consider: PLEASE DON"T POLITICISE

1. Is the sample size big enough?

how large do you want the sample size to be? 20 % sounds large enough to me.

Thirdshifter

25-05-2004, 02:16 AM

I don't think NS was used as a BN breeding ground as it was claimed by many. However there were ofcourse with no doubt the pro-BN/goverment agenda everywhere in training.

The Poll clearly shows that most of NS trainees were happy and beleive they have learned couple of new things.

Bare in Mind that these trainees are only 17 and most 17 year old don't care about asking why they're doing this.

I personally don't like the NS idea but the better half of me believes that all these Young kids had learnt to work together and i'm sure they probably would be more caring for Malaysia well being after it was done.

I think the pros outweight the cons.

So misled, why are you anti-NS?,

misled_youth

25-05-2004, 03:18 AM

Thirdshifter

25-05-2004, 12:01 PM

Earth: I don't know how big the sample size should be

Third:
- I'm against conscription.
- Forcing people do do 'voluntary work' during NS is an oxymoron
- Implemented in a rush (wonder what's the rush)
- Poorly planned
- Media semi-blackout (where are the reports about pregnant NS trainees?)
- Waste of funds. Nationalism/patriotism/unity should start with education, and educating the adults first.
- Public/media/MP's not given access to NS camps, but NS trainees can sneak out (duh!)

Many lah... so many reasons. But I want to sleep already. Continue another time.

Just for the sake of arguments.

1. Drafting is a tool that is essential to all goverments and NS could be used as a learning ground incase Malaysia is to go to war in the future. So i support it.

2. Why is it an oxymoron? I don't follow. Anyway i don't think there's enough good voluntary bodies in Malaysia so NS could start a new trend.

3. It took the goverment a year to plan it. I think a year is long enough for planning.

4. I think it was planned alright since it was the first time they ever did it.

5. Nasionalism and patriotism wasn't the main reason for NS. NS was done to get our younger generation to be more disiplined. More like a boot camp. Although not all youngster needs it but it would be a great experience none the less. And it had been for many. I think it was money well spent. Putrajaya on the other hand is not.

6. Why should a MP visit a NS camp? NS is not related to any Politic body and is directly funded by the goverment not BN.

Although NS is flawed in many areas. Its hard for me to say NS was wrong. I honestly think all country should have some sort of program like this. I know Singapore requires all its citizens to join the military for 2 years. Israel does it too.

US stop it but joining the US military is a cool thing to do now.

Having a strong force improves Investors confidence to the country.

NS just started and i'm sure many experience had been collected for future NS camps.

I've read an article that was written by lim kit siang about NS and he does have many valids point of NS is wrong in its implementation but ofcourse he failed to mentioned any of the benefits.

ElansarGelmir

25-05-2004, 01:28 PM

Personally, i think the surveys done is not that accurate. I think it is palpable to us that most Malaysians are still having the concept of telling people (especially the govt) what they want to hear, instead of the truth. I mean, even in INTEC, during the teacher's evaluation, while it is obvious that the lecturer always enters the class 10-20 minutes late, there are some who gave them 4/5 or 5/5 for punctuality. Gone are the truth and frankness of those who are being surveyed. And how can we be sure that the surveyers actually print out the actual data? There could be some internal manipulation, altering the ones which that will not help promoting NS.

Hmm.... And what kind of questions are being given in the surveys? The ones with MCQ kind of question, like

"How do you grade the NS?
A - Excellent B - Fantastic C - Simply the best D- All of the above"?

"In what way do you think you have benefited from NS?
A - Improved in discipline and endurance
B - Trained to be country's future leader
C - Acquire new skill and knowledge
D - Learnt the importance of doing volunteer work
E (highly recommended) - All of the above "
???

"Do you agree that NS has succeeded in bringin racial harmony among different races?
A. Yes
B. Agree
C. No objections
D. Any of the above"

Are there any negative feedbacks or comments? This should be asked too as the authority needs to know the weakness and flaws of NS and try to improve them...

I hope they can show us what kind of questions are being asked. Anyway, my friend has just returned from NS. According to her, it was kinda cool. I've invited her here, but she has yet to make any appearance. Shy kua...

misled_youth

25-05-2004, 02:13 PM

Just for the sake of arguing during my lunchbreak:

Just for the sake of arguments.

1. Drafting is a tool that is essential to all goverments and NS could be used as a learning ground incase Malaysia is to go to war in the future. So i support it.

You can take a cow to the water, but you cannot force it to drink. Likewise, someone like misled_youth is very difficult to brainwash, although he might be suaded if the trainers are hot chicks in skimpy clothing.

2. Why is it an oxymoron? I don't follow. Anyway i don't think there's enough good voluntary bodies in Malaysia so NS could start a new trend.

What's the antonym of the word "Voluntarism"?

Compulsion destroys the meaning of doing voluntary work. Imagine if one was to be compelled to do community service, where's the sincerity, quality of work in that?

3. It took the goverment a year to plan it. I think a year is long enough for planning.

All the fuck ups at NS camps, including racially motivated fights, trainers watching porn, pregnant trainees, missing handphones, trainers raping trainees, trainees absconds, food low in nutrition (haha), bla bla bla... is signs of BAD PLANNING.

The gomen is not planning a 3 day 2night camping trip, but a life changing 3 month brainwashing camp. They didn't plan for enough trainers, now, they are going to use use soldiers (uneducated, kampung type) to teach kids (comprising of people of all walks of life) how to be Nationalistic, Patriotic, Disciplined.

Bah! Those crew-cut morons don't even know the meaning of democracy, gender equality, plurality in society bla bla... You expect them to teach us a thing or two?

Bad planning. Using ex-BTN (Biro Tata Negara) zombies as trainers are no better.

4. I think it was planned alright since it was the first time they ever did it.

If your sister/friend get's raped/pregnant during NS, if it was your relative/friend who died during NS, lets see whether you still think it's alright.

Emphathy friend... emphathy!

5. Nasionalism and patriotism wasn't the main reason for NS. NS was done to get our younger generation to be more disiplined. More like a boot camp. Although not all youngster needs it but it would be a great experience none the less. And it had been for many. I think it was money well spent. Putrajaya on the other hand is not.

Haha! Looks like the public is just as confused as DPM Najib about the objectives of NS.

For the sake of discussions, lets do some post-moderninst thinking and deconstruct a few concepts:

1. Who is Najib/Mahathir to tell us what to do/what to think?
- They are (were) elected representatives. They are our servants. Servants don't tell their masters what to do, what to think.

2. What do you mean by indiscipline?
- Lepak, going clubbing, listening to linkin park (*shudder), wearing cap back-to-front, BBoy poseurs, illegal racing bla bla...

Najib/gomen needs to define indiscipline first.

3. How do you know the money is well spent?
- Dare the government release NS financial accounts?
- People are dying on the streets, EPF hardly paying any dividends, we have a budget deficit bla bla bla...
- Was there an open tender format for NS projects? Or was it the usual "You my crony, here is contract. Now, I want to date your daughther".

6. Why should a MP visit a NS camp? NS is not related to any Politic body and is directly funded by the goverment not BN.

DAP and BN MP's made attempts to visit trouble NS camps on countless occasions. Their purpose was to see first hand how the rakyat's money is used, and how the rakyat's trust in NS trainers are abused.

Why the secrecy? MP"s are our servant. They are our voice in Parliament. They make democracy (which I don't believe in) work (haha).

Note
Did I sound offensive this time? Hmm...
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Thirdshifter

25-05-2004, 03:08 PM

what you did was just going into details of your previous statements.

What you fail to realize is, there's no real evidence that NS was used to brainwash these young Malaysians to be a BN drone.

Like you said it, these young people don't even know what democracy is. So if the goverment somehow manage to make them a bit more patriotic it will indeed make them start to think about Malaysia and how Malaysia works.

The Death is under investigation isn't it? But to play the elimination game we can point it down to another trainee. Desiplined? thats your answer.

Pregnancy? If it happened in a camp which is supervised i'm sure it happens daily in our Kota Raya.

I supposrt the idea of NS, although the way the first NS wasn't something to brag about it doesn't mean its a bad idea.

If the NS program would be there forever, i'm sure it'll turn into something really positive. Instead of going all nuts about how bad it is,
..that is wrong, it should be this way not that way..

Why dont we try to help build a good NS program? Get the MP to suggest a solution to the problem not venting about whats is and whats not.

The real problem with NS is the lack of public input. BUt now that we have at least 5000 kinds that just graduated from it we're gonna start hearing what the parents of these kinds wanted to be changed.

As the old saying goes, You can't read all books so live and learn.

I

gohweihan

25-05-2004, 10:43 PM

Just for the sake of arguments.

1. Drafting is a tool that is essential to all goverments and NS could be used as a learning ground incase Malaysia is to go to war in the future. So i support it.

2. Why is it an oxymoron? I don't follow. Anyway i don't think there's enough good voluntary bodies in Malaysia so NS could start a new trend.

3. It took the goverment a year to plan it. I think a year is long enough for planning.

4. I think it was planned alright since it was the first time they ever did it.

5. Nasionalism and patriotism wasn't the main reason for NS. NS was done to get our younger generation to be more disiplined. More like a boot camp. Although not all youngster needs it but it would be a great experience none the less. And it had been for many. I think it was money well spent. Putrajaya on the other hand is not.

6. Why should a MP visit a NS camp? NS is not related to any Politic body and is directly funded by the goverment not BN.

Although NS is flawed in many areas. Its hard for me to say NS was wrong. I honestly think all country should have some sort of program like this. I know Singapore requires all its citizens to join the military for 2 years. Israel does it too.

US stop it but joining the US military is a cool thing to do now.

Having a strong force improves Investors confidence to the country.

NS just started and i'm sure many experience had been collected for future NS camps.

I've read an article that was written by lim kit siang about NS and he does have many valids point of NS is wrong in its implementation but ofcourse he failed to mentioned any of the benefits.

1. Comparing Malaysia to countries like Taiwan, Israel and Singapore, where there is a need to draft soldiers, is a stupid thing to do. Singapore is a country with 4.2 million people. In the event of war, they need every able bodied men to defend their nation. Taiwan is a country constantly threatened by China, thus they require the ability to mobilize troops at the instance they need them. Israel is in a conflict zone, where they need people to defend the nation against people who wants to wipe them off the map. Malaysia is not in a conflict zone, and neither is it threatened by any foreign nation (militarily). Malaysia is always promoting peace, and the likeliness of war is next to none. Besides, are there any firearms training in the national service?

2. Forced volunteers are not volunteers - they are conscripts. It sends the message that the youths have no freedom in choosing whether to volunteer their service or not.

3. It doesn't matter if it's a year or 2 years or 10 years. The fact is, the government screwed up the NS (although they claimed it's just a few flaws to be ironed out). The first day of NS is the best example. Just compare the number of busses and registration counters to the number of trainees at every pick-up zone. The combination of limited time, with an incompetent committee made disaster a reality.

4. If it was planned alright, then all that fiasco on the first day, fights, trainers walking out, rape cases, drowning, and god knows what else happened in those camps would not have happened. It's probably excusable for one isolated incident of fighting to happen, but all this is nonsense and proof of non-proper planning. Incidents like these could have been easily avoided if the committee wants to.

5. Nationalism and Patriotism was one of the main reasons why national service was implemented - not to reduce indiscipline. However, the fact remains - if 11 years of education failed to instill these values, is 3 months of forced unity sufficient? The money spent could have well been distributed to the so many schools who needs them in order to have a more condusive school (missionary schools come to mind).

6. Why shouldn't MPs visit the national service camps? The people were the ones who voted them to parliament - shouldn't they be allowed to report to the people what is happening to their children in the camps? Anyway, anything funded by the government is DIRECTLY LINKED to the BN - either in newspaper reports (by saying that the BN goverment cares and therefore they implement them, etc., or by a big signboard saying "Satu Lagi Projek Kerajaan Barisan Nasional").

Having a strong military is only a small factor in an investor's decision in investing in a country. There are many countries with small military forces, yet having more investors than countries with large military forces.

chenchow

25-05-2004, 11:48 PM

I understand that there are lots of flaws, and lots of rooms to improve.

However, lets look at this. I am sure some of you have organized event. How difficult it is to organize an event for 200 people in the audience. Say even a Malaysia Night. That takes in a lot of efforts right? Any of you have organized a camping? A few days of events and it is so energy-sapping to organize. Anything could have gone wrong. It is learning period for everyone. And especially for first timers, it is very difficult. I have organized a lot of events, and yet every time it is still very difficult.

I would propose that NS cut down the ratio of the trainers and the students. Currently the ratio is about 1:20 .Is that an ideal ratio? How about 1:15? Would that helps a lot? Would the experience of the current batch of trainers help in carrying out the NS next year? How about those who have gone through the training will be some of the trainers? I would like to give it a try to be a facilitator/trainer in NS after I graduate. I think it will be a worthwhile experience.

Randomphantom

27-05-2004, 06:13 PM

"The survey shows the programme is supported by a majority of the trainees and there is no question that it is a flop and should be put off," he told a news conference at the Parliament here Monday.

Question:Is NS a total failure and you a byproduct of this failed social experiment which should be put off? Y / N

Najib said analysis of each reply from the respondents showed the NS programme managed to improve unity and character of the trainees.

Wonder how does a questionnaire (not even a psychosometric test?) gauge vague traits like patriotism (now do you know how to sing the national anthem) unity (did you talk to people from different races?) and character (are you a better person?). How does it measure improvement too?

He said 83 per cent of the respondents said the programme helped to mould discipline and endurance and 79 per cent said the programme trained them to be the country's future leaders.

Oh, so if I didn't go for NS i wouldn't be trained to become the country's future leaders?

Some 87 per cent were in the opinion that the NS programme gave them new skills and knowledge, he said.

This i believe.

Najib said 77 per cent of the respondents agreed that the programme taught them the importance of doing volunteer work while 76 per cent said the programme had increased their commitment to defend the country.

I think those fresh after a bout of SPM Moral Ed exams would think so too.

"The outcome of the survey will be made the basis for any future review of the NS programme by the government," he said.

If its the sole basis...scary thought indeed.

I wonder is the sample biased. Who would want to do a lengthy questionniare? (Maybe those interested enough to?)

The_Observer

27-05-2004, 06:25 PM

I'm with misled_youth in NS-bashing and Najib-bashing.
You have my support!!!

BTW, I say that the survey is tipped to one side. No BN 'scale logo' here. I don't care about the maths for I care about the psychology of the partcipants. I say that most of the votes are made under unfair circumstances and without proper objective thinking, since our country have a 'fine' reputation of having the same ruling government for a long time thus the barrage of pro-government propaganda and thinking in nearly every aspect. /(><)\
"Brainwashed"..perhaps.. but I think the survey had too much of a slant to it.

And I am not talking about Singapore!

misled_youth

27-05-2004, 09:39 PM

I'm with misled_youth in NS-bashing and Najib-bashing.
You have my support!!!

It's good that you choose to seek an alternative to the norm, and dare to thread where the masses don't.

Just make sure you KNOW why exactly who, what and most importantly why you bash.

No point bashing without a reason. Just a friendly reminder to all of us.

NS/Najib failed to convince us that NS is good for "us" and the country. It only proved the gomen's incompetence due to the various "cock-ups".

BTW: You guys know that Sukom 98 accounts hasn't been made public yet?
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The_Observer

28-05-2004, 04:55 PM

I know what I am doing...trust me...

I am not a radical hothead...

I align myself on a right-wing, conservative basis but this long standing government we have back home sits on the sofa a bit too comfortably for my liking. Complacency has crept in.

BTW,I have never seen any 1st world country which has the same ruling government/party for 5 decades in a row (discounting monarchial, feudalist, or totalitarian rule)
But then again, Singapore also had the same government for a long time but yet they pulled ahead of us...
Hmmm...interesting...any political science ppl here?