dilemma of speaking english

[Athersin]

Based on my personal experiences, i notice that majority of the chinese in malaysia are not willing to converse in english

For example, during my time in highschool, i've mixed with the so called chinese-ed students, and it is EXTREMELY awkward to speak any sort of english during our conversions as it is mostly done in mandarin. people will stay away from you if u dont speak their mothertongue (more importantly, people tend to think that you are trying to show off whenever english comes out of your mouth)

now, even when i'm hanging out with people who usually communicates in english, it very hard to speak real proper english, example being, these are the things we usually say

"want to go eat dinner or not" " anything lah" "yalor" "i also not sure leh" "how ar?" "i eat d" "got meh?" "nah heres your money" "really one" "he try that d what"

all these broken english are so common till the point where if anyone of us tries to speak the so called proper english, it might be misinterpreted as trying to showoff

anyone else experiencing the same dillemma as me? should i continue with my manglish or try to speak proper english and be isolated by friends who thinks im a wierdo?:(

[extreme]

When you mixed with people who speak in English it's OK to speak proper English.It's not wrong or very weird.Me myself tend to correct other people English when they speak but i do mix a few language when speaking.Sometimes i speak in English for 1 sentence then Chinese for the second sentence.

My advice is just be yourself and do what you feel is right.You will be special among your friends.They will probably come find you when they have trouble in English language cause they know you speak well.SO do not worry too much .

:)):))

[bachok83]

Sometimes i speak in English for 1 sentence then Chinese for the second sentence.

My advice is just be yourself and do what you feel is right.


i happen to agree with you, extreme. I believe you answered the question/dilemma bang on. I did experience the exact same thing when i was in high school/pre-univ era. I've been called a nerd, a geek, 'mat skema' etc, etc... but who cares?

At the end of the day, u learn how to converse in proper English. It's nothing more embarrassing than having bad English when you are in professional world. Remember, English is a language, u lose it if you dont use it. Language is meant to be practiced and spoken.

My advice is try to mix chinese/english in ur conversation. Make sure the English part is proper, and you should be fine. It's no use if you dont have any friends to talk to, so try to have some good friends and make an oath to practice proper English.

Remember, pick the right friends. Trust me, i've been through this and i know that nothing is more important than having the right friend. You do not have to be 'cool' or 'macho' during this young age (well, i know, geeks are not very popular with the ladies at young age). Get ur attitude right, get your results right, get into professional field (or business) and women will salivate after you.

[runninghorse]

Hey Buddy! I have the same problem as you here!

Even here in INTEC, i found that not many people are aware of the importance of spoken english.

Malays speak malay language with each other and chinese converses mostly in mandarin.

I know the best way to improve a spoken language is by pratising it continuosly. Therefore, i try to communicate with my schoolmates in english but i get negative feedbacks from some of them. They perceive me as trying to show off, not loving my mother touge, weird etc. In fact, i start speaking english with someone new to me but when he/she finds out that i can speak mandarin, he insists that we should communicate in mandarin by saying that it's weird to speak english.

In the end, now i only use english with some group of people and mandarin with the other group of people.

Now the school is going to reopen again and i will be arranged into another class. Last time in my old class i had successfully negotiated with my classmates that i will communicate with them in english and they agree. But now i will face a totally different group of people. What should i do? Should i keep on my practice or speak mandarin instead? Can someone teaches me how to convince someone new to me? i really scared to loss a new friend because of this and at the same time i don wanna loss my chance of improving my spoken english too.

Sometimes i have the thought of pretending as a banana but now it's too late.

Haiz...

[cyther90]

runninghorse, i understand your problem about the people in intec speaking mostly their mother tongue...i also face the same problem as you but i plan the appropriate time to speak in my native languange, malay, with other people...

of course if your friend want to have a conversation in malay for example, and you selfishly want to speak in english, wouldn't it be like...how should i put it into words...err...'distrupt the atmosphere' @<hidden> 'not parallel' @<hidden> 'bertepuk sebelah tangan' <--dont know whether this one fits...

for me, conversation is primarily to improve your relashionship with your friends, etc. and then followed by to increase your verbal skill or your proficiency with your language...it's not like you-don't-speak-english-you-will-perish...heck, you can improve your english anytime, not necessarily by talking to your friend only...try talking to the intec lecturers...they are fun to talk with...:nod

so if i talk in different language with my friends, i can predict that our conversation will end in a short time...
about choosing the right friend, yeah, you should...but that doesn't mean that you should discard the older friend that wouldn't want to speak in english!:nod

[Miracle_seed]

Language mainly serves the purpose to communicate, thus most of the time people tend to choose the language that they can best communicate or converse their thought or ideas, it's very normal to revert to the language you're most familiar with, when talking in daily life... It's awkward for me to ask a friend "Where should we go for dinner?" in English when we both know Mandarin... It wouldn't be so if we are talking about something more academic or formal... There is a good way to practice English, especially when you're in school or colleges, that is try to talk to friends with different mother tongue in English, for example, you can talk to people from other races in English, instead of Malay, I bet most students can speak in English in colleges...

P/S: Even though proper English is important, Manglish is nothing to be ashamed of, it's a culture of Malaysia...

[bachok83]

I bet most students can speak in English in colleges...

P/S: Even though proper English is important, Manglish is nothing to be ashamed of, it's a culture of Malaysia...

I disagree with those two statements. I mean no disrespect to those who are trying so hard to learn English, believe me, i have been there.

Personally, i think we should be embarrassed of ourselves if we are speaking Manglish. I remember reading about the reason why Phua Chu Kang show was canceled in Singapore. The press mentioned about government's concern over the influence of the language called, "Singlish."

I know it is very hard to learn English in a very difficult environment called "the Malaysian culture," but one should not get discouraged because of that.

I have a few places that you should ALWAYS try to converse in English.
1. fast food restaurants or chain restaurants
- think of it this way, the waiter/waitress dont know you and he/she wont even care if you screwed up your English. Well, there are certain occasions that you'd be laughed at (typical Malaysian idiosyncrasy), but who cares?
2. when buying movie tickets
3. when you go shopping
4. when you talk to yourself in front of the mirror

I may have come off a little strong on this matter, but if we keep our "typical" mindset, we wont get far. I've come from a pure Malay-Hokkien village and by no means that im telling you to forget your own language(s).

There are a lot of opportunities and knowledge available in English only medium. It's a shame if we do not even try to brush up our English for our kids future (heck, it's even for our own future).

[okaywhy]

Personally, I don't see any need to converse in English if we share the same non-English mother tongues, say Mandarin, Bahasa Melayu, Tamil, Cantonese and so on.

Well, chit-chating with friends in English doesn't necessarily improve your proficiency in English. Instead, by gradually conforming oneself to the Malaysians' way of speaking English, although you may speak more fluently, but, at the same time, your English might drift further away from the "real-English" spoken by most of foreigners out there.

First, I think we have to really understand what's the main purpose of learning English. To me, it's a medium or "bridge" to get our ideas across to those who cannot comprehend our mother tongues such as Mandarin or Bahasa Melayu. If you agree with this statement, question yourself, what's the point to speak English (or Manglish to be more accurate) with your friends? Afterall, conversation is just a transfer of information or ideas, if Mandarin or BM serves better in communicating with friends, what's the need to speak English?

Well, I suppose you might argue that we need practice to speak better. I concur that. But, speaking with our local friends is definitely not an effective way of practice. As I've said earlier, such practice profoundly degrades your proficiency.

Consider the following example:
"Hi, this is my wife, she is thirty, I am thirty two."
our Manglish or Singlish usually sounds:
"Hi, disc is my wife, she is dirty, I am dirty too."

this is just one of the numerous examples of how disastrous it actually is. Well, you might take pride of it as a national identity or cultural uniqueness or whatsoever bs. But, come back to the main point, if you see English merely as a communicative tool, please don't take speaking English with your friends as a means to improving English.

Well, I'm not really good in English, but if you ask about my opinion, this is my opinion... :-P

[Miracle_seed]

Sorry for not putting myself clear, in formal occasions such as academic or business, where proper English is required, of course Manglish should be avoided, but Manglish/Singlish is already another version of English where people in this region can understand. If you see spoken Mandarin in Malaysia/Singapore is very much "rojak" compared to China's Mandarin, but well understood in this region. But again, if you compare Mandarin in China and Taiwan, there are some differences yet both are considered proper Mandarin. Same case goes to English, American, British and Aussie English have quite some differences, yet we all recognised them as proper English. Of course we should be more careful about grammars, but some words like "lah", "loh", "meh" don't do harm to the structure of the sentences, it can be seen as part of Malaysian English..

I'm not discouraging learning proper English here, just sometimes we can keep something unique to Malaysia. A friend of mine studying in Australia told me, she would speak proper English there, but automatically revert to Manglish when speaking to people from this region, interesting right? :P
Consider the following example:
"Hi, this is my wife, she is thirty, I am thirty two."
our Manglish or Singlish usually sounds:
"Hi, disc is my wife, she is dirty, I am dirty too."
There are some words that you cannot pronounce properly, if you don't start learning it since small because there are some pronunciations that don't exist in your mother tongue, and it's difficult to learn when you have grown up...

[Jieweitan]

Well, in INTEC, just speak English with the bananas, lecturers, Malays, Indians. Sporadic english with your Mandarin speaking friends will do you good too. I think that will be enough. :)

Try to mix with more kinds of people, and not just your main group of friends. That way, you will have more opportunity to speak English.

Most importantly, hone your pronunciation and your grammar. Don't care about the Malaysian accent and "la le lor"s although try to cut down on them whenever you can.

And there's always Toastmasters to hone your speaking.

[henry_yew]

Based on my personal experiences, i notice that majority of the chinese in malaysia are not willing to converse in english

For example, during my time in highschool, i've mixed with the so called chinese-ed students, and it is EXTREMELY awkward to speak any sort of english during our conversions as it is mostly done in mandarin. people will stay away from you if u dont speak their mothertongue (more importantly, people tend to think that you are trying to show off whenever english comes out of your mouth)

now, even when i'm hanging out with people who usually communicates in english, it very hard to speak real proper english, example being, these are the things we usually say

"want to go eat dinner or not" " anything lah" "yalor" "i also not sure leh" "how ar?" "i eat d" "got meh?" "nah heres your money" "really one" "he try that d what"

all these broken english are so common till the point where if anyone of us tries to speak the so called proper english, it might be misinterpreted as trying to showoff

anyone else experiencing the same dillemma as me? should i continue with my manglish or try to speak proper english and be isolated by friends who thinks im a wierdo?:(

Before I begin, one thing that I'd like to point out though is that "Manglish" does not necessarily constitute "broken English". But I'm not here to defend that. I'll leave that to you to think about instead.

I should consider myself quite fortunate in the sense that I had been enrolled into an English-speaking school, where the principal put in great emphasis on the English language being the international language. It had come to an extent, during my eleven years of studying there, that the medium of communication among students and teachers is English, although the subjects were thought in Bahasa Melayu, except for English and EST. Speaking English in my school became a culture. It came to a point that when the new principal was appointed and found that he speaks more Bahasa Melayu than English (of course, his English isn't as proficient as his Bahasa Melayu - perhaps he was a Bahasa Melayu teacher), the students had a poor impression of him. But enough of that now.

I understand your dilemma, especially those who are in Chinese vernacular schools. One thing that I would like to also mention is that those of you who are in Chinese schools need not feel inferior to those who speak fluent English (perhaps even compounded without the typical Chinese or Indian accent). Do not feel that you are left in the lurch simply because your English is not as good as those coming from an English-educated environment. While they may have strength in English, they lose out in their mother tongues, such as Tamil and Mandarin (I have been fortunate enough to be given home tuition by my parents in Mandarin).

We cannot blame your friends for their reluctance in using English as the medium of communication. They have, after all, been using Mandarin (or any Chinese dialect) as their medium of communication for the past so many years. They feel comfortable and easy to express themselves in a language which they have better mastery at. Some of them may even feel that, due to pride, English is the language of the orang putih - Chinese must speak in Mandarin.

I have, in my experience, been communicating with students from Chinese schools. Indeed, they find it more difficult to articulate in the English language as compared to Mandarin. As a result, cliques form (Chinese-ed students in one bench; English-ed students in another). If you wish to break barriers, often you need to speak their language, that is, Mandarin.

Do not feel disheartened. Similarly, in my campus there are also Malay students who are reluctant to speak English. Some come from schools where the medium of communication is Bahasa Melayu. Some may come from schools like mine, where an emphasis of English is given. Therefore, this kind of scenario is not just confined to the Chinese.

If you wish to improve in terms of spoken English, I suggest you look around for friends who share the same dream with you, that is to speak English more often. Then put your dream to task. If you could, be a member of the English Language Club if there is one in your school, for in such a club, English should always be spoken, not Mandarin or Bahasa Melayu. If you are feeling more adventurous, then participate in an English debating team or English public speaking. If there is a Toastmasters Club in your school, all the better!

You will not be speaking in Mandarin all the time, I assure you. When you step into college or university, there will be friends who come from different schools and backgrounds. Once again you will find yourself in a group of friends who may speak mainly in Mandarin, but also another group who speak mainly in English (some, like me, can speak fluently in both). Cliques are unlikely to form (my experience in my campus - may not apply to others) where one speaks predominantly in Mandarin and the other in English (but they do exist undeniably). Nevertheless, you should know better than to just mix around with friends who speak only in Mandarin (or English!).

A mix of friends who speak Mandarin and/or English can be advantageous. My coursemate is illiterate in Mandarin and till today she cannot read any Mandarin. However, her spoken Mandarin has improved tremendously as she constantly converses in Mandarin with her roommate (who is very fluent in both Mandarin and English). Likewise, students who are not that proficient in English will find that their English will improve over time when they constantly use the language with their roommates or friends who speak mostly in English.

Remember, we don't expect you to speak English in a manner similar to the Brits (accent, pronunciation, etc.), but we hope that you will be more confident in using the language in your daily conversations. One of the biggest challenges when trying to improve one's spoken English is to tear down the wall of embarrassment and inferiority that is often faced by students whose main medium of communication is not English. Once you can get over that and stop feeling shy about your Chinese/Indian accent and disjointed English sentences, it will not take you long before you start impressing people with your fluency in English.

You can be sure, then, that during presentations, discussions, meetings, etc. you will feel proud that you are able to convey your messages not only in Mandarin/Tamil/Bahasa Melayu but also in English, especially when you have international audiences with you.

The road to success may be steep, but it can be very rewarding.

P/S: I guess you could emulate youngyew - a Chinese-ed student whose English, as you can see for yourselves, is impeccable! :D

[music_freak28]

A friend of mine studying in Australia told me, she would speak proper English there, but automatically revert to Manglish when speaking to people from this region, interesting right? :P

I guess we feel more at home with Manglish. It's really ok to put in all the "lah"s and "one"s but we just have to cleverly know when to switch it on and off.

Well, in INTEC, just speak English with the bananas, lecturers, Malays, Indians. Sporadic english with your Mandarin speaking friends will do you good too. I think that will be enough. :)

haha. I am a banana.:P I mix with the Chinese people in Intec to pick up Mandarin. I have this agreement with a classmate of mine where she teaches me Mandarin while I help her with English. Cool no?:))

[eugenetoh91]

Inevitable, we have to admit that we have this so called the typical malaysian(or ASEAN) languages culture that mangle up together and immerse into our daily speaking style. There are mandarin, malay, english, hokkien, cantanese, teochew, and some may even speak french,japanese,russian and so on. All these languages will influence our english accent and slang. I was the master of ceremonies for english assembly in my school, everyone says that I have a westerner accent which i do not think so when I listen to BBC or CNN. Other people may think that your face looks weird with BBC english because you're not a westerner. But as time flies off, they are used to your language and you are no more an alien to them. But in private, try to follow their language usage, what i mean is when they speak mandarin with you, do so. To teachers, speak as much English as you can, don't care whether they are chinese, malay, baba, or what, just speak a proper English without having any "lah","meh","wat" n so on...Don't be afraid that you speak wrongly or having mistake in your grammar, people will tease or scoff at you. As we as a teenager has the priority to learn, we are young and we need consultation. People will tend to help you when you have any problems or hitches. in a nutshell, speak it out!!!

[nigelsim]

i agree with henry_yew

manglish doesnt necessarily means bad english. I did dis for my research paper in college. do mistakes made by local really mean errors or do they represent just a deviation? americans have different way of speaking compared to englishmen. so does those living in australia. so does that mean that all are errors? NO... it is just a result of "pidginization" - an ongoing evolution of the english language based on local influence.

n it is amazing how we can switch from using all de la's and ma's into perfect english when talking to a foreigner! dats de beauty of MALAYSIAN ENGLISH!!! we can switch our usage as we see fit!

[henry_yew]

Inevitable, we have to admit that we have this so called the typical malaysian(or ASEAN) languages culture that mangle up together and immerse into our daily speaking style. There are mandarin, malay, english, hokkien, cantanese, teochew, and some may even speak french,japanese,russian and so on. All these languages will influence our english accent and slang. I was the master of ceremonies for english assembly in my school, everyone says that I have a westerner accent which i do not think so when I listen to BBC or CNN. Other people may think that your face looks weird with BBC english because you're not a westerner. But as time flies off, they are used to your language and you are no more an alien to them. But in private, try to follow their language usage, what i mean is when they speak mandarin with you, do so. To teachers, speak as much English as you can, don't care whether they are chinese, malay, baba, or what, just speak a proper English without having any "lah","meh","wat" n so on...Don't be afraid that you speak wrongly or having mistake in your grammar, people will tease or scoff at you. As we as a teenager has the priority to learn, we are young and we need consultation. People will tend to help you when you have any problems or hitches. in a nutshell, speak it out!!!

True! You are not the only one who were told that you sound as if you have a Western (which, I suppose, would indirectly mean British or American) accent by some of your friends. Even I had that, and I would often look at them with a puzzled look. Actually, what they do not know is that Malaysians (or Asians, for that matter) who speak mainly English here in the country sound as if they speak in a Western accent because they do not have the Asian (such as Chinese/Thai/Indian/Malay etc. etc.) accent that would be typical among mainly Mandarin or Tamil speakers.

Your family and friends who are around you can also influence your accent, directly or otherwise. Even if you are not mainly a Mandarin or Tamil speaker, your English may be thick with the Chinese or Indian accent because an individual tends to emulate the way other people speak. That means if your family speak English in a very Chinese-accented manner, you MIGHT somehow have that accent, too, even if you don't speak much Mandarin!

But as we have constantly emphasised over the years, there is nothing to be ashamed of your accent. As long as you get your message across to your listeners, then your communication is effective. That is what matters. Don't go looking around for an "accent teacher" like what Inspector Clousseau from The Pink Panther movie did.

Needless to say, sometimes I am sick by the way some people, especially in China, try to imitate an American accent when speaking English to tourists but could not make themselves comprehensible because their pronunciation is simply atrocious. Therefore, the accent does not necessarily determine whether you can get your message across to your audience or not (of course, I had the unfortunate/fortunate experience of speaking English to a Scot and his accent was such that I had to ask him to repeat his sentence twice). Clear diction and proper pronunciation is what matters.

On pronunciation, it is good and important to pronounce your words correctly. The dictionary does not only give you the definitions of words, but also the pronunciation, which includes stresses on different syllables. It would be very useful if you could learn up the phonetics and make use of them to know the correct pronunciation of the words.

It is annoying to see people mispronouncing words like "determine", "cache", "resource" and simple ones like "banana", "papaya", etc. We should also be careful with words like "subtle", "debt", "receipt", "heir", "cognac", "chateau", etc.

One might say that as long as we pronounce words close to the correct pronunciation, that would be good enough. Perhaps that can hold true when you speak to locals, but when you are speaking to an international audience, you might just confuse your listeners. It is better not to make your listeners feel uncomfortable or struggling to comprehend your message, especially when you are making a corporate presentation or giving a good corporate image.

Not many people pay attention to stresses, too, but I think people can seem to understand you even if you use the wrong stress at wrong the wrong syllable. Actually, stresses can change the meaning of a word. For example, the word "subject" would mean "a topic, a discipline or an item in reference" if you stress on the first syllable (SUB-ject), but would mean "cause to experience or suffer or make liable or vulnerable to" if you stress on the second syllable (sub-JECT). The same goes for the word "record". RE-cord and re-CORD would mean differently.

There's much to learn on the English language. But take it step by step. There's no need to rush. As long as your audience is able to comprehend your speech, give yourself a pat on the back and you'll have my heartiest congratulations. :D


haha. I am a banana.:P I mix with the Chinese people in Intec to pick up Mandarin. I have this agreement with a classmate of mine where she teaches me Mandarin while I help her with English. Cool no?:))

That is exactly what happens in my campus. It's good to see that there is a mutual learning.

<digression>A banana... Hmmm... I can speak fluent Mandarin and read a little Mandarin (enough for me to understand notices and let me read the menu while I was travelling in China) - I received no formal Mandarin education, and I am fully English-educated. What does that make me? A half-banana? An unripe banana? :P</digression>


manglish doesnt necessarily means bad english. I did dis for my research paper in college. do mistakes made by local really mean errors or do they represent just a deviation? americans have different way of speaking compared to englishmen. so does those living in australia. so does that mean that all are errors? NO... it is just a result of "pidginization" - an ongoing evolution of the english language based on local influence.

Heh, pidgin English. The exact term that I used in my debate long ago - the term, which I suppose, brought the House to my side. :D

[okaywhy]

i agree with henry_yew

manglish doesnt necessarily means bad english. I did dis for my research paper in college. do mistakes made by local really mean errors or do they represent just a deviation? americans have different way of speaking compared to englishmen. so does those living in australia. so does that mean that all are errors? NO... it is just a result of "pidginization" - an ongoing evolution of the english language based on local influence.

n it is amazing how we can switch from using all de la's and ma's into perfect english when talking to a foreigner! dats de beauty of MALAYSIAN ENGLISH!!! we can switch our usage as we see fit!
It seems to me that you're unconsciously trying to justify the usage of Manglish through "self-deception". The beauty of a language comes second to its effectiveness. No matter how beautiful Manglish is, if it's not effective when it comes to communication with the foreigners, it is practically useless.

Yes, American English sounds different to the British English, and the Scots' accent is different from the Australians'. But the fact is, these kinds of English are more common to the world compared to Manglish. Which means to say that, it is more likely that a foreigner from say, Argentina, to understand American/British/Australian English compared to that of Manglish.

Of course, I agree with henry yew that we should not refrained ourselves from speaking English just because we can't speak the standard form of English. Similarly, we should not stick blindly to the Manglish just because it represents our cultural identity. I've seen some newspaper columnists glorifying Manglisn as the most understandable form of English in the world. Isn't it amusing? Just because you understand Manglish doesn't mean that others do.

[henry_yew]

Yes, American English sounds different to the British English, and the Scots' accent is different from the Australians'. But the fact is, these kinds of English are more common to the world compared to Manglish. Which means to say that, it is more likely that a foreigner from say, Argentina, to understand American/British/Australian English compared to that of Manglish.

Of course, I agree with henry yew that we should not refrained ourselves from speaking English just because we can't speak the standard form of English. Similarly, we should not stick blindly to the Manglish just because it represents our cultural identity. I've seen some newspaper columnists glorifying Manglisn as the most understandable form of English in the world. Isn't it amusing? Just because you understand Manglish doesn't mean that others do.

This is true. Just because it represents our cultural identity does not constitute the need to speak Manglish, because by doing so all the time, you are actually butchering the English language, and you may offend the English by doing so.

Nevertheless, we do not expect everybody to be speaking in standard English at all times, and at most times you would be speaking to a local, and occasionally to an international audience. If you must speak in Manglish first among the local community to gain some confidence in speaking English, I wouldn't discourage you to do that. But you must know that Manglish can only be understood by the local community, and even so, it is not a form of professional English that should be used especially in the corporate world (or even your own course presentations).

If your English is Manglish, by all means just speak it. However, don't be contented with it, thinking that as your local audience can understand you, then that will be good enough. Keep trying to speak in proper English and eliminate all your "lah" and "mah" even in informal conversations. Don't mix in some Cantonese or Malay words as you like while speaking in English. An occasional slip of the tongue may be pardoned, and be open to corrections from your friends.

With determination, you will be able to speak in English that is understandable not only to your local audience but international ones as well. Of course, you can keep your knowledge of Manglish when mingling around with local friends who are more comfortable speaking in that. "When in Rome, do what the Romans do."

[Miracle_seed]

Actually there is no need to speak in so-called Westerners' accent, unless you're going to stay in that particular country for quite some time, as most of the time, Westerners' accent in Malaysia simply means American, due to the influence of American series and movies. Australian, British accents are not quite the same, just simple, good English would be enough. Try to cut down the lah, loh, meh when speaking to foreigners, or else it doesn't really harm...

[vikraman]

Everybody seems to miss the crux of the issue here. Define a language, a language is any set or system of such symbols as used in a more or less uniform fashion by a number of people, who are thus enabled to communicate intelligibly with one another.

The key here being communication. If manglish or any other variant of english allows you to communicate most effectively with another person then that's what you should use. The goal of language is to convey a message from Person A to Person B in the most accurate, unambiguous and shortest way possible.

All this hoo-haa about us not talking the Queen's English is rubbish. We should all endeavour to speak in a manner someone else can understand. That's all language is, that's all language should be. Trying to say somebody else's command of the language is imperfect due to their cultural influences and accent in the language is a shallow attempt at social stratification. Also trying to insinuate that native speakers of the so-called "Correct" English look down upon non-native speakers of English who use the language "incorrectly" is untrue because a cursory glance through the English As A Second Language syllabus in Australia will inform you that Manglish, Singlish and Standard Aboriginal English are considered legitimate dialects of English.

All languages evolve according to their usage. Their evolution is dictated by the people who speak it. If this evolution never occured we'd be speaking Greek (holding that all other historical events occured as they did over the last 2500 years.) The languages tend to evolve geographically and culturally according to their daily usage. Anyway, there is no standard authority on English. It is above all a living language and it's widespread nature makes it impossible to "police". Nobody can define right and wrong in as far as vocabulary, pronunciation and word usage is concerned.

However, (and this is a major caveat) Everybody should learn a grammatically accurate English. This is to facilitate understanding another person's accent quickly and thus being able to understand what they're saying. I learnt English by reading before speaking so until today I am able to converse with both native and non-native speakers of English with their various accents. (Except mainland Chinese.. that pseudo-American accent is a pain in the ass because they sound neither chinese nor american.. if fact they sound like they're speaking another language altogether.)

Written english though is a different animal. You must learn it in a standardised fashion. It has to remain standardised or else the entire point of the world using English as a global common language of communication is lost.

[chongkeat]

And that includes forum posts!

L33T Skillz T0T4LLY RoXXors!


Oh, god. Now waiting for the flaming to pile on.....

[henry_yew]

The key here being communication. If manglish or any other variant of english allows you to communicate most effectively with another person then that's what you should use. The goal of language is to convey a message from Person A to Person B in the most accurate, unambiguous and shortest way possible.

That was what I wanted to send out, too. As long as there is effective communication, it does not really matter much to what sort of English you speak. But we must at all times pay special focus to the audience around us. If we have international audience, then using Manglish would be a mistake. Whenever possible, speak in standard English that is being taught in school in front of international audience. You would still be well understood; at least 80% of what you said, if not 100%. But if your audience consists of locals and you're not in any sort of formal functions, who cares if you use Manglish?


All this hoo-haa about us not talking the Queen's English is rubbish. We should all endeavour to speak in a manner someone else can understand. That's all language is, that's all language should be. Trying to say somebody else's command of the language is imperfect due to their cultural influences and accent in the language is a shallow attempt at social stratification. Also trying to insinuate that native speakers of the so-called "Correct" English look down upon non-native speakers of English who use the language "incorrectly" is untrue because a cursory glance through the English As A Second Language syllabus in Australia will inform you that Manglish, Singlish and Standard Aboriginal English are considered legitimate dialects of English.


Seconded. Nobody in this world expects you to emulate the Queen's English. Even the Brits do not necessarily speak the Queen's English though they may be living anywhere near Buckingham!

Just pay attention to your pronunciation, grammar and your sentence structure and that will be good enough. Forget about trying to get rid of your accent, because you can't (unless you meet certain conditions - please don't ask me to elaborate on this lah - I already quite tired of telling people about accents leh to my friends and juniors who want to imitate a British accent). :P

Just speak English. Period.


However, (and this is a major caveat) Everybody should learn a grammatically accurate English. This is to facilitate understanding another person's accent quickly and thus being able to understand what they're saying. I learnt English by reading before speaking so until today I am able to converse with both native and non-native speakers of English with their various accents. (Except mainland Chinese.. that pseudo-American accent is a pain in the ass because they sound neither chinese nor american.. if fact they sound like they're speaking another language altogether.)


I remember the night when I went up the Pearl Oriental Tower in Shanghai in 2003. The girl who was supposed to introduce the tower in English did a horrible job in trying to imitate the American accent. She spoke so fast that I could hardly catch what she was saying, and to make matters worse, her imitation of the American accent was such a flop that all I could understand was her last three words: "... in the world." Even so, the word "world" was pronounced like "waerld". Ugh!

But Chinese newscasters who report in English sound all right. Perhaps they have got some sort of professional training and have come to understand on stresses and phonetics.

Anyway, feel no shame in speaking YOUR English. If anyone dares to laugh at you, then they're quite ignorant of the fact that their accent is nowhere near a Brit's, an Australian's or an American's for that matter.

[jiinjoo]

Personally, i think we should be embarrassed of ourselves if we are speaking Manglish. I remember reading about the reason why Phua Chu Kang show was canceled in Singapore. The press mentioned about government's concern over the influence of the language called, "Singlish."
Let's be careful when we quote this example. Singaporeans actually can't decide as well - speaking good English is good for its purpose, but the influence of Singlish has become an integral part of their nationhood, identifies them overseas (sometimes more distinct than Manglish... if there's one) and makes up for the lack of distinct culture, as a port city with many passerby coming and going. It creates a kind of psychological resilience as it enlarges what it means by "we" as "we" speak the same way, besides social cohesion across races.

One thing that I would like to also mention is that those of you who are in Chinese schools need not feel inferior to those who speak fluent English
I would contend that such feelings are unavoidable. I feel ashamed when I speak Cantonese to Hongkies, Mandarin to mainland Chinese, Malay to Malays, English to Americans/Britons, and Hokkien to some of the older generation Singaporeans (do you know how it feels when you try to order food in Hokkien in Singapore or Penang, just to be answered in Mandarin?) - It is the nature for those who want to succeed to fill ashamed and that pushes the person to try harder.

But as we have constantly emphasised over the years, there is nothing to be ashamed of your accent. As long as you get your message across to your listeners, then your communication is effective. That is what matters. Don't go looking around for an "accent teacher" like what Inspector Clousseau from The Pink Panther movie did.
Similarly, being ashamed is perhaps the best (or is getting a bad grade in aural exam better?) innate drive for someone to communicate better? Have you heard of grammatically impeccable English spoken in a totally inaudible way? Maybe looking for an "accent teacher" is really unnecessary, however on the other extreme, for a foreigner to teach a class in a US university, one must go through a short accent class to ensure that he or she is understood in class using an American accent, even if the class is also predominantly foreigners. Same goes to Indian call centers. The spoken language represents you, your ideas, your cultural identity. Taking a "I've tried my best, and it's you fault for not being to understand me" stand does not help us communicate better.

vikraman put it another way which I think is appropriate too, but I would emphasize that it's not only communication at the present, but also communicating with our past and future. Therefore, should Manglish be heavily used, then it must come with it contextual meaning that can transcend time, even if it would have fallen out of flavor in the future.

So in the case of the Shanghai girl, she failed to communicate and just by that I think she should try harder, even if it's still emulating the American accent as necessary. But for our students, whether it's fortunate or unfortunate that we grow up in a multi-lingual environment and being a net cultural importer, we must strive harder to master each and every language we speak, in an understandable accent and grammar to the audience we are trying to communicate to.


Of course, whether speaking an inclusive language is a separate issue altogether.

[henry_yew]

Similarly, being ashamed is perhaps the best (or is getting a bad grade in aural exam better?) innate drive for someone to communicate better? Have you heard of grammatically impeccable English spoken in a totally inaudible way? Maybe looking for an "accent teacher" is really unnecessary, however on the other extreme, for a foreigner to teach a class in a US university, one must go through a short accent class to ensure that he or she is understood in class using an American accent, even if the class is also predominantly foreigners. Same goes to Indian call centers. The spoken language represents you, your ideas, your cultural identity. Taking a "I've tried my best, and it's you fault for not being to understand me" stand does not help us communicate better.


No, definitely taking a "I've tried my best, and it's your fault for not being to understand me" sort of attitude will definitely not help. But in whatever accent that you may speak of, be it French, Chinese, Indian, Malay, Spanish, etc. as long as you can enunciate your words clearly and pronounce your words correctly, then effective communication can exist.

Of course, extreme cases may demand extreme measures, but for a Malaysian individual who wishes to brush up on his spoken English even when speaking to foreigners, I daresay that accent is something which the individual should be least concerned about. It is more important to get your pronunciations and enunciations right before you start thinking about your accent.

The Chinese have often been known to have problems especially when pronouncing the "r" sound. Series like "Mind Your Language" has portrayed (perhaps discriminately) the Chinese student constantly pronouncing the "r" sound as "l" (o-lange instead of o-range), and even went further by confusing the two "r" and "l" sounds (when the teacher asked her to say "Lionness" she said "Rionness" - when the teacher asked her to say "Rionness" she said "Lionness"). This may be due to the fact that in Mandarin, the "r" sound is pronounced lightly without the rolling of the tongue, but in English the "r" sound needs to be articulated properly. This, I believe, is more of a pronunciation problem rather than an accent; it can be corrected through practice.

I have dealt with people who speak in an African, American, British, Australian, Chinese, Indian, Malay, Egyptian, Indonesian German, French, etc. accents. Of all the accents, I find the French speaker most incomprehensible when speaking in English due to his thick French accent, compounded with inaccurate pronunciations. My French lecturer however, though bears the similar French accent, is entirely comprehensible when speaking in English as she pays attention to the pronunciation of the words.

Therefore, when speaking in English, to make oneself clear, it is not the accent that will contribute to effective communication per se. Much depends on the pronunciation, enunciation and speed of speech (not forgetting the choice of words that the individual uses!). A person who speaks in impeccable British accent would not be understood as well if they speak too fast and have poor enunciation with incorrect pronunciation.

<digression> "Enunciation", "Pronunciation"... quite a mouthful just saying these two words repeatedly... Enunciation, Pronunciation, Enunciation, Pronunciation... (gets tongue-tied) </digression>

[okaywhy]

The Chinese have often been known to have problems especially when pronouncing the "r" sound. Series like "Mind Your Language" has portrayed (perhaps discriminately) the Chinese student constantly pronouncing the "r" sound as "l" (o-lange instead of o-range), and even went further by confusing the two "r" and "l" sounds (when the teacher asked her to say "Lionness" she said "Rionness" - when the teacher asked her to say "Rionness" she said "Lionness"). This may be due to the fact that in Mandarin, the "r" sound is pronounced lightly without the rolling of the tongue, but in English the "r" sound needs to be articulated properly. This, I believe, is more of a pronunciation problem rather than an accent; it can be corrected through practice.
(digression)

Eh... actually that's not the result of Mandarin speaking habit. In Mandarin words such as re (热, i.e. hot) and le (乐, i.e. happy), the 'r' and 'l' sound have to be distinguished. The 'r-sound deficiency' among the Chinese speakers is actually influenced by the Cantonese and Hokkien where 'r' sound does not exist in both of the dialects.

Talking about dialects, considering their tones, pronunciation, grammatical structures and so on I think Manglish and Singlish have deviated severely from the Queen's English and they are no longer an accent, but a dialect or a completely new language altogether. :P

[henry_yew]

Eh... actually that's not the result of Mandarin speaking habit. In Mandarin words such as re (热, i.e. hot) and le (乐, i.e. happy), the 'r' and 'l' sound have to be distinguished. The 'r-sound deficiency' among the Chinese speakers is actually influenced by the Cantonese and Hokkien where 'r' sound does not exist in both of the dialects.


Yes, but although both the "r" and "l" sounds must be distinguished, the "r" sound in particular does not bear a heavy rolling sound, meaning we don't go something like "Rrrrrrre". When pronouncing the "r" sound even in Mandarin, it is done lightly. English speakers, on the other hand, will articulate the "r" sound more distinctly with a heavier rolling of the tongue.

Some even pronounce the "r" sound so similar to that of the "z" sound.

[chongkeat]

Yeah, well, I've seen some of those International School kids talking with a perfect accent, but I can speak my own English with a Malaysian accent around them quite proudly. It made me feel like I was different, unique. Just remember not to speak too fast or make any (or at least, not too much) grammatical errors.

I don't feel ashamed that I can't have an accent. In fact, one of my worst experience/conversation was when I tried to do an American accent and failed. I was burning in the face for about three days. I will never, ever, try any accents again. Except as a joke, of course.

Oh, and I don't converse in English with everyone. I just talk to people in the language that the both of us are most proficient in, and most of the time, it's Hokkien or Chinese. To practice English, I talk to some of my English educated teachers or friends who don't know Chinese. That's the easiest (and least awkward) way to learn spoken English, IMHO.

[henry_yew]

Well, there's no need to conform to any accents in the first place. No language body has ever made it compulsory for us to actually emulate any accent in the first place.

As on the choice of language while conversing with people, we live in a multi-cultural, multi-lingual society where not everybody can speak English. Not even everybody can speak the national language, Bahasa Melayu. Therefore, when in Rome, do what the Romans do. If the people whom you are talking to speak mostly in Mandarin or any Chinese dialect, in order to make them feel comfortable as well as yourself, then follow suit and speak their language. To others who feel more comfortable speaking English, grab the opportunity and do the same to them (speaking English, of course).

[Miracle_seed]

I was wondering how important is grammar in spoken English... For example, this happens even with people who speak English daily -- "She don't go". Grammatically it is wrong, but it's not that significant or disastrous as "She are going", it has very little effect on fluency of the language, and most of the time we just don't realise if we don't pay attention...

[henry_yew]

Well, in terms of comprehensibility, grammar may not be so important, especially in informal conversations. With poor grammar, you can still make yourself understood. But when you are giving a speech, or trying to campaign as an MP, it would be laughable (and even disastrous) if you were to speak something like this constantly:

"I will making sure that government don't implements the NEP in years to comes. It be my top priorities that I are accountable for the rakyat. I has already submitted a proposals for three new schools to be building. I be ordering that the rivers will deepen so that there will no flood in future."

Well, there goes one's reputation and image.

Would you not, for your own reputation and image, hence improve on your grammar, if necessary?

[chongkeat]

I was wondering how important is grammar in spoken English... For example, this happens even with people who speak English daily -- "She don't go". Grammatically it is wrong, but it's not that significant or disastrous as "She are going", it has very little effect on fluency of the language, and most of the time we just don't realise if we don't pay attention...
Well, in terms of importance, grammar definitely ranks higher than accents or vocabulary. Good grammar is, like Henry (can I call you Henry?) said, not as important in informal conversations, but it does help to reduce the "cringe" factor and so try to speak as correctly as possible. It makes for a much smoother conversation.

And of course, some people (not me, though) do take notice of your grammar unconsciously.

Just be yourself. Don't feel pressured or stressed. That's the most important thing. The rest will come naturally.

[henry_yew]

... like Henry (can I call you Henry?) said, not as important in informal conversations, but it does help to reduce the "cringe" factor and so try to speak as correctly as possible. It makes for a much smoother conversation.

And of course, some people (not me, though) do take notice of your grammar unconsciously.

Just be yourself. Don't feel pressured or stressed. That's the most important thing. The rest will come naturally.

Yes, it's true people take notice of your grammar unconsciously. I admit freely that I'm one of them, but I won't condemn you for that. (So please don't feel shy to speak to me!) I'm not likely to correct you either, but I'd certainly hope that over time you'd learn to correct your own mistakes.

If I were to be very strict about grammar and make a huge fuss about it, I would have been on the "hate" list of every ReCommer. (By the way, do we refer to participants in ReCom as "ReComers" or "ReCommers"? :lol:)

And yes, chongkeat, you may call me Henry. In fact, anybody may feel free to call me that! :D

[stupidboy]

At first I thought it was "Recommers" but then I saw chenchow using "Recomers". So I concluded that it's the latter.

[henry_yew]

Yeah, I saw that, too. Now, is there a thread depicting how ReCom first started? :D

[chongkeat]

Now, is there a thread depicting how ReCom first started?
Hmm, maybe we can try searching for the first thread posted on ReCom?

[youngyew]

Speaking of "may" and "can", I noticed that it's quite common for some people to use these two interchangeably although they are not really synonymous. "May I use the washroom?" is more accurate than "Can I use the washroom?". The former was about getting permission; the latter refers to your ability to use the washroom. On the other hand, "Yes we can" is totally different from "Yes we may". :P

[henry_yew]

Precisely. Perhaps I'm a "conservative" English user, but my teachers have always emphasised on the differences between "may" and "can". Although both can be used, they produce different meaning to the sentences.

On the question, "Can I call you Henry?" I would always answer, "Yes, you can," but it does not mean that you may call me that, meaning you have the ability to call me Henry, but you do not have the permission to do so.

Furthermore, I would find the question "Can I call you Henry?" redundant since you would have already mentioned my name in the question, or even before you asked the question. :D Therefore, the question should be: "May I call you Henry?"

However, lately, "Could I call you Henry?" is also generally accepted as a question to seek permission, but I would not recommend the use of "could" instead of "may" to avoid any confusion. It is better to stick to basics and be sure than sorry.

The word "could" generally is used in a question to request something from another individual, e.g. "Could you help me, please?" "Could you please be quiet?" "Could I get you a glass of water?" (here, you request to offer a glass of water)

[chongkeat]

Ah, thanks for the correction. Didn't know that. Heh.......
*sheepish*

[henry_yew]

You're welcome. I must credit this all back to my teachers who paid special attention to grammar. One of my teachers even used a workbook on Practical English Usage which was very good. I'm still keeping that book for future references. I find that whenever I have doubts, I can rely on the book for clarifications.

You might want to get yourself the following book: Practical English Usage (English as a Second Language) by Times Educational Co. Ltd.

There are a few books. When I first attempted this book, I got myself Book 3.

[vikraman]

I had an English teacher back in primary school who made us buy these Singapore English "drill" books. There's 6 in the series. All of them are orange/yellow in colour and are not full size books (ie. only about half A4 size.) Each book corresponds to a particular level in Malaysian/Singapore/Brunei/UK education system. (ie. Book 1 = Malaysia Std4, Singapore Std2, Brunei Std3, UK Grade 3 so on so forth until Book 6 being Malaysia Form5, Singapore Form 3, Brunei Form 4, UK Grade 9)

The practices were very hard but very effective and my English teacher made us complete Book1 to Book6 by the time we finished Standard 5. Needless to say my entire class finished primary school with near impeccable English. The books can be obtained in Popular if I'm not mistaken. I don't think I have a copy lying around the house anymore (8 years ago?!!) so i can't give you the exact title but it's worth taking a look around Popular if you're interested to improve your prepositions, noun usage, verb usage, adjective usage, adverb usage, basic sentence construction, pronouns and your grammar in general.

[henry_yew]

I had an English teacher back in primary school who made us buy these Singapore English "drill" books. There's 6 in the series. All of them are orange/yellow in colour and are not full size books (ie. only about half A4 size.) Each book corresponds to a particular level in Malaysian/Singapore/Brunei/UK education system. (ie. Book 1 = Malaysia Std4, Singapore Std2, Brunei Std3, UK Grade 3 so on so forth until Book 6 being Malaysia Form5, Singapore Form 3, Brunei Form 4, UK Grade 9)

The practices were very hard but very effective and my English teacher made us complete Book1 to Book6 by the time we finished Standard 5. Needless to say my entire class finished primary school with near impeccable English. The books can be obtained in Popular if I'm not mistaken. I don't think I have a copy lying around the house anymore (8 years ago?!!) so i can't give you the exact title but it's worth taking a look around Popular if you're interested to improve your prepositions, noun usage, verb usage, adjective usage, adverb usage, basic sentence construction, pronouns and your grammar in general.

I believe it's the same book that I was talking about. My book was also purchased from Popular (for RM9.90), there are six books in particular (from Book 1 to Book 6) and my Book 3 is green in colour. It is also about half the size of an A4 paper. :D

[vikraman]

Right, now that you mention it there was one that was green in colour.

[Athersin]

browsing through all the feedback and constructive opinions given by fellow recomers, I more or less get an idea of the overall condition of spoken english , its importances as well as the social status of english language in the society.

Vikraman and Henry, both of you guys have a very laudable and commendable command of english, i guess you guys are from an english educated family and schooling background. So, what are the most effective ways of those who are chinese english educated to improve their english , reaching the level of just like what you both have? Though you all have mentioned several on this thread, but i found that it is indeed very difficult or should i say it takes time? to let you english mastery on the very proficient level. My proficient level here refers to the fabulous english just like what you guys have penned down your opinions on this thread. apraised you guys.:)

[Sillyboy]

browsing through all the feedback and constructive opinions given by fellow recomers, I more or less get an idea of the overall condition of spoken english , its importances as well as the social status of english language in the society.

Vikraman and Henry, both of you guys have a very laudable and commendable command of english, i guess you guys are from an english educated family and schooling background. So, what are the most effective ways of those who are chinese english educated to improve their english , reaching the level of just like what you both have? Though you all have mentioned several on this thread, but i found that it is indeed very difficult or should i say it takes time? to let you english mastery on the very proficient level. My proficient level here refers to the fabulous english just like what you guys have penned down your opinions on this thread. apraised you guys.:)

Just read more English reading materials and you will get by. :) Most importantly, DO NOT be intimidated by others, however proficient their English may be!

[henry_yew]

browsing through all the feedback and constructive opinions given by fellow recomers, I more or less get an idea of the overall condition of spoken english , its importances as well as the social status of english language in the society.

Vikraman and Henry, both of you guys have a very laudable and commendable command of english, i guess you guys are from an english educated family and schooling background. So, what are the most effective ways of those who are chinese english educated to improve their english , reaching the level of just like what you both have? Though you all have mentioned several on this thread, but i found that it is indeed very difficult or should i say it takes time? to let you english mastery on the very proficient level. My proficient level here refers to the fabulous english just like what you guys have penned down your opinions on this thread. apraised you guys.:)

Well, Athersin, for the record, both my parents are Chinese-educated and completed up till their Form 5 studies only. They speak mostly in Mandarin with me; English is rarely spoken, although their proficiency in the English language is sufficient for them to make themselves understood in foreign nations.

I agree that the methods mentioned on several threads here are time consuming methods, although undoubtedly effective. The truth is that there is no short-cut methods to attain a good proficiency in English, be it spoken or written, except for constant practice and usage of the language itself.

I admit, it might be unfair to see that English-educated students tend to fare better in English than Chinese-educated ones, but this is no reason for Chinese-educated students to give up on improving English, or even attempting to make English as one of your main media of communication. You should remember that being Chinese-educated, you already have a high proficiency of Mandarin which English-educated students will definitely not have (even if they do, their level would generally not be as high as those from Chinese schools). To focus more on the English language will not cause your Mandarin to deteriorate, thus if you were to pay more emphasis on your English, no doubt you would see results in a matter of months.

For me, my level of English has been due to English debates, choral speaking, school drama, English novels (fiction or otherwise), emceeing, etc. I love literature, such as those by Oscar Wilde, Charles Dickens, Roald Dahl, Jane Austen, Adeline Yen-Mah, etc. and these do help. I am sure that you must have read a lot of Chinese literature in order to improve your proficiency in Mandarin.

In a nutshell, whatever you do to attain a high proficiency for your Mandarin is also needed for you to improve your English, but since you have been given formal English lessons, the improvement curve should not be so steep.

Finally, there is a ReComer here, as I have mentioned before, who is Chinese-educated but has attained an excellent level of English. He is youngyew. You could exemplify him (as well as other ReComers here who are Chinese-educated but having impeccable English!).

Therefore, Athersin, there is no need to feel that there is no hope in improving your spoken English. I am confident that by being meticulous, your written English should be mostly free of errors. As for your spoken English, it helps by communicating more in the language, and by thinking your thoughts in English, too, rather than thinking in Mandarin and then translating them to English.

It takes time, I know. But we have an average of 75 to 80 years to live. Therefore, time should not be a factor. I just bid you to be patient.

[bluez_aspic]

Speaking of "may" and "can", I noticed that it's quite common for some people to use these two interchangeably although they are not really synonymous. "May I use the washroom?" is more accurate than "Can I use the washroom?". The former was about getting permission; the latter refers to your ability to use the washroom. On the other hand, "Yes we can" is totally different from "Yes we may". :P

Dictionary.com states that 'can' and 'may' can be considered synonyms (c.f. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/can).

'May' seems more formal, so personally I save it for sarcasm.

Language is incredibly democratic anyway - if enough people decide that these two are synonyms, or that an arbitrary string of alphabets takes on a specific meaning, then it is :D


So, what are the most effective ways of those who are chinese english educated to improve their english , reaching the level of just like what you both have? Though you all have mentioned several on this thread, but i found that it is indeed very difficult or should i say it takes time? to let you english mastery on the very proficient level.
Tiu fei kei!

I am serious - Chang Yang would agree (on some level) :D

[henry_yew]

Tiu fei kei!

I am serious - Chang Yang would agree (on some level) :D


Ah, yes, that's true, too. If you have the $$$, you could just do exactly that. And perhaps after three to five years, you could have that pseudo-American or pseudo-British accent as well - not that I'd encourage it anyway.

[bluez_aspic]

Tiu fei kei rich poor also can de. I have a family friend who has been to half a dozen countries!

[youngyew]

i am serious - chang yang would agree (on some level) :d
*cough cough*

[henry_yew]

*cough cough*

Oh, there, there! Didn't expect yourself to be pulled into here just like that, eh?

[TheArtOfMedicine]

That was what I wanted to send out, too. As long as there is effective communication, it does not really matter much to what sort of English you speak. But we must at all times pay special focus to the audience around us. If we have international audience, then using Manglish would be a mistake. Whenever possible, speak in standard English that is being taught in school in front of international audience. You would still be well understood; at least 80% of what you said, if not 100%. But if your audience consists of locals and you're not in any sort of formal functions, who cares if you use Manglish?



Seconded. Nobody in this world expects you to emulate the Queen's English. Even the Brits do not necessarily speak the Queen's English though they may be living anywhere near Buckingham!

Just pay attention to your pronunciation, grammar and your sentence structure and that will be good enough. Forget about trying to get rid of your accent, because you can't (unless you meet certain conditions - please don't ask me to elaborate on this lah - I already quite tired of telling people about accents leh to my friends and juniors who want to imitate a British accent). :P

Just speak English. Period.



I remember the night when I went up the Pearl Oriental Tower in Shanghai in 2003. The girl who was supposed to introduce the tower in English did a horrible job in trying to imitate the American accent. She spoke so fast that I could hardly catch what she was saying, and to make matters worse, her imitation of the American accent was such a flop that all I could understand was her last three words: "... in the world." Even so, the word "world" was pronounced like "waerld". Ugh!

But Chinese newscasters who report in English sound all right. Perhaps they have got some sort of professional training and have come to understand on stresses and phonetics.

Anyway, feel no shame in speaking YOUR English. If anyone dares to laugh at you, then they're quite ignorant of the fact that their accent is nowhere near a Brit's, an Australian's or an American's for that matter.

Sorry for quoting such an old post. I tried to find a way to highlight one of your sentences but to no avail. Hence, I think it'd be better for me to type it out myself:

Quote:
Whenever possible, speak in standard English that is being taught in school in front of international audience(End of quote)

The sad truth is, Manglish is taught in many schools throughout Malaysia(bar the international and private schools)and hence, many Malaysians, in fact, don't know what else to speak if not Manglish OR imitating the foreign accent, i.e; American or British.

To be honest, I think it's completely fine for a person to imitate the foreign accent(s), as long as it's done properly and remain comprehensible to other people. Having said that, choosing an accent to imitate from is also crucial, it wouldn't be nice to imitate, say the notorious Bristolian or Birmingham accent.

In short, everyone has the right to speak in whichever way they like, be it Manglish or with the so called ''pseudo'' foreign accents, as long as it does not defeat the whole point of speaking the language, i.e; to converse. It wouldn't be nice to live in, for example, England for 7 years and still speak with the same accent, though I'm afraid many of you will beg to differ. Personal choice, really.

[henry_yew]

The sad truth is, Manglish is taught in many schools throughout Malaysia(bar the international and private schools)and hence, many Malaysians, in fact, don't know what else to speak if not Manglish OR imitating the foreign accent, i.e; American or British.

To be honest, I think it's completely fine for a person to imitate the foreign accent(s), as long as it's done properly and remain comprehensible to other people. Having said that, choosing an accent to imitate from is also crucial, it wouldn't be nice to imitate, say the notorious Bristolian or Birmingham accent.

In short, everyone has the right to speak in whichever way they like, be it Manglish or with the so called ''pseudo'' foreign accents, as long as it does not defeat the whole point of speaking the language, i.e; to converse. It wouldn't be nice to live in, for example, England for 7 years and still speak with the same accent, though I'm afraid many of you will beg to differ. Personal choice, really.


Well, I did make a point in saying that Manglish does not necessarily mean broken or bad English. It can be English that is nonetheless understood by even foreigners (minus all the "lah" and "mah" etc.). I have no idea if the English language that is, or was, taught in your school is Manglish, but I believe that teachers who are qualified to teach English as Second Language would at least know what standard English is. And here when I mention standard English, I refer to proper English that Malaysians would suffice to have in their daily communication with people, be it locals or foreigners.

I admit that not all teachers are excellent, and asking for evidence or statistics to support your statement that many schools teach Manglish would be prejudicial and unfair. Therefore I accept your statement with good faith sincerely.

None of us, in any thread (as far as I could see), has ever said that imitating an accent is wrong or propose that accent imitation should be prohibited. Yes, it is true that we may discourage it, but we will not obstruct or prohibit you from learning to imitate an accent if you wish to. We see it as just being unnecessary to imitate an accent just to make yourself understood. As far as I am concerned, accent is the last thing that English speakers should be worried about. Rather, it is pronunciation, enunciation and grammar that matter.

One may speak with a flawless British accent, but with constantly inaccurate pronunciation, unclear enunciation and poor grammar, the accent does no justice to make yourself comprehensible either.

Therefore, rather than focusing so much on accent, which would make little difference to comprehensibility of speech, I would encourage that you get your pronunciation, grammar and enunciation right first before even thinking about imitating an American or British accent.

P/S: Hongkies make themselves understood quite well in English, even with their typical Chinese accent. But yes, it's personal choice in the end.

[TheArtOfMedicine]

Well, I did make a point in saying that Manglish does not necessarily mean broken or bad English. It can be English that is nonetheless understood by even foreigners (minus all the "lah" and "mah" etc.). I have no idea if the English language that is, or was, taught in your school is Manglish, but I believe that teachers who are qualified to teach English as Second Language would at least know what standard English is. And here when I mention standard English, I refer to proper English that Malaysians would suffice to have in their daily communication with people, be it locals or foreigners.

I admit that not all teachers are excellent, and asking for evidence or statistics to support your statement that many schools teach Manglish would be prejudicial and unfair. Therefore I accept your statement with good faith sincerely.

None of us, in any thread (as far as I could see), has ever said that imitating an accent is wrong or propose that accent imitation should be prohibited. Yes, it is true that we may discourage it, but we will not obstruct or prohibit you from learning to imitate an accent if you wish to. We see it as just being unnecessary to imitate an accent just to make yourself understood. As far as I am concerned, accent is the last thing that English speakers should be worried about. Rather, it is pronunciation, enunciation and grammar that matter.

One may speak with a flawless British accent, but with constantly inaccurate pronunciation, unclear enunciation and poor grammar, the accent does no justice to make yourself comprehensible either.

Therefore, rather than focusing so much on accent, which would make little difference to comprehensibility of speech, I would encourage that you get your pronunciation, grammar and enunciation right first before even thinking about imitating an American or British accent.

P/S: Hongkies make themselves understood quite well in English, even with their typical Chinese accent. But yes, it's personal choice in the end.


I'm afraid I have misinterpreted one of your posts, and it was also my fault for thinking of Manglish as a language(if it's considered as one, that is) full of grammatical errors etc but still, it's not uncommon to hear some College students saying ''he don't'' while conversing in English, and they don't seem to realise it, or perhaps do it intentionally. However, it was the accent that I'm more conerned about in my previous post. Obviously, we've reached the conclusion on this matter and there's no need to carry on.

To me, speaking English with the foreign accent(s) sounds better than speaking with the Malaysian one, just like it's always nicer to listen to how the Chinese people(as in people from China with proper education/native speaker)speak in Mandarin. But again, our conclusion says it all.

Grammar and pronunciation etc are no doubt the foundation of speaking good English but they aren't something that will show linear progress if one continues to learn it.(saturation kinetics eh?) We all know that bombastic words do not fit in with daily conversations and are more useful in written English. I'm pretty sure most people know how to pronounce the words that we use on a daily basis fairly properly and the same goes for grammar.

P/S: Unfortunately, I have to agree with you that the British accent just wouldn't work in Malaysia where the American accent dominates.

We probably should stop our discussion on this as it all started because of my misunderstanding of your post! =)

Cheers!

[henry_yew]

it's not uncommon to hear some College students saying ''he don't'' while conversing in English, and they don't seem to realise it, or perhaps do it intentionally.


Yes, I agree with you whole-heartedly on this matter. Many university students, even in my campus, don't realise that they are making grammatical errors. Sometimes they even get the tenses, subject-verb agreement, articles, etc. all wrong. It is an appalling scenario in Malaysia, considering the fact that English is being taught in schools.

Perhaps the teaching of the English language in schools really isn't that effective, the syllabus anything but challenging and perhaps the students don't care if they do well in English or not. Any of this can lead to atrocious grammar, pronunciation, etc.

This is all the more reason for us to be improving our English, and if you have the heart to do so, I do not see why you would not have the upper hand in a lot of things in the future.

If you are from Chinese schools, your fluency in three languages (English, Mandarin and Malay) are very much sought after by employers. The same goes to students from Tamil schools (English, Tamil and Malay) and Malay students who study Arabic or any third language. My point is that your mastery in more languages can be an advantage in the future to you. So don't stop practising your English, or any other languages, for that matter.

[Miracle_seed]

Many students can write very good English but don't do well in speaking. We can improve our written English on our own, but it's impossible to improve the spoken part alone... This is the problem faced by most students without any English background (i.e. speaking English at home). There isn't many English schools left in Malaysia even though many are left with English names... It's almost impossible to do it without the environment, as most of them who can speak good English have some English background, family or school. Our education system from primary to secondary stresses on written English, speaking is very much neglected. Even though oral test is included in the syllabus, since it's school-based, many students don't take it seriously... Plus, normally students who are already good in English are picked for debates, public speaking etc... Average students generally stand no chance... This is especially true in rural areas.

For many students, the first time to have a good environment to practice English is perhaps college or university time...

I'm not discouraging anyone here, just to tell a phenomenon...
To me, speaking English with the foreign accent(s) sounds better than speaking with the Malaysian one, just like it's always nicer to listen to how the Chinese people(as in people from China with proper education/native speaker)speak in Mandarin. But again, our conclusion says it all. Interesting... Which part of China you're referring to? Mandarin from Northern China and Southern China have quite different accent... Taiwanese Mandarin is yet another version... Generally Malaysian Mandarin is closer to Southern ones, which is more comprehensive than the thick Northern accent...

[TheArtOfMedicine]

Many students can write very good English but don't do well in speaking. We can improve our written English on our own, but it's impossible to improve the spoken part alone... This is the problem faced by most students without any English background (i.e. speaking English at home). There isn't many English schools left in Malaysia even though many are left with English names... It's almost impossible to do it without the environment, as most of them who can speak good English have some English background, family or school. Our education system from primary to secondary stresses on written English, speaking is very much neglected. Even though oral test is included in the syllabus, since it's school-based, many students don't take it seriously... Plus, normally students who are already good in English are picked for debates, public speaking etc... Average students generally stand no chance... This is especially true in rural areas.

For many students, the first time to have a good environment to practice English is perhaps college or university time...

I'm not discouraging anyone here, just to tell a phenomenon...
Interesting... Which part of China you're referring to? Mandarin from Northern China and Southern China have quite different accent... Taiwanese Mandarin is yet another version... Generally Malaysian Mandarin is closer to Southern ones, which is more comprehensive than the thick Northern accent...

To be honest, I think all of them sound nice. Though I probably have my heart set on the Taiwanese accent, as you said, more similar to ours. It's just like comparing the American accent with ''standard'' British accent, both sound better than, well, you know what I want to say but I personally like the British accent more.

BTW, I studied at a Chinese primary school and in fact got an A in PMR(even though this isn't some sort of amazing achievement) so I'd say I speak fluent Mandarin! =)

[henry_yew]

Many students can write very good English but don't do well in speaking. We can improve our written English on our own, but it's impossible to improve the spoken part alone... This is the problem faced by most students without any English background (i.e. speaking English at home). There isn't many English schools left in Malaysia even though many are left with English names... It's almost impossible to do it without the environment, as most of them who can speak good English have some English background, family or school. Our education system from primary to secondary stresses on written English, speaking is very much neglected. Even though oral test is included in the syllabus, since it's school-based, many students don't take it seriously... Plus, normally students who are already good in English are picked for debates, public speaking etc... Average students generally stand no chance... This is especially true in rural areas.

For many students, the first time to have a good environment to practice English is perhaps college or university time...


For the record, I am not from an English background where my family speaks English at home. However, it is true that through schools, one can polish their speaking skills there, and it is also true that there are not many "pure" English schools left in Malaysia.

It is also true that students who are good in English are picked for debates, public speaking, etc. but none of the above should deter anybody with the intention of improving their spoken English to do exactly that - that is, to improve their spoken English.

Even though you may not be selected for competitions, one should participate in debating clubs, Toastmasters Club, etc. if you are really that keen to sharpen your oratory skills. This can be the preliminary stage towards improving your spoken English, and besides you get to sharpen your mind, too, through all the debates and sharing of ideas. You get to kill two birds with one stone, as they say.

Yes, indeed, students in rural areas may be the most affected, or afflicted, group of students in terms of the quality of spoken English. Then again, it boils down to awareness and realisation. A city child who could not be bothered about the importance of English and is unaware of the fact may still lose out to students in rural areas.

Indeed, perhaps the best environment to practise your spoken English would be in college or university. Then again, it is never too late to learn.

[Thomson90]

Hey. I was facing the same problem here oso. Couple months ago, i'd had an interview for a post in my new school. Perhaps because of it is a mandarin school, the interviewers( my seniors) were asking all the questions in mandarin, and i answered them both in mandarin and english. Then all of a sudden, a girl asked me (loudly) whether i can answer them in pure mandarin because she couldnt understand certain english words. It was quite an embarrassing moment. I was wondering if they thought i was a show-off or wat. In fact, it is quite pathetic that we couldnt use english freely in school just because we are able to converse in other languages like mandarin. But it is not the case in other races, as my friend, an indian, who couldnt converse in mandarin, are using english to everyone in school. So try to imagine how awkward it is if a third person( chinese) joins our conversation, where i gotta use mandarin and then he is using english.

[vikraman]

That's a good start Thomson90, keep at it and soon you'll have impeccable English. However there are some grammatical errors in your earlier post and these are the corrections FYI and for you to learn from :)

I was facing the same problem here oso.
I faced/I am facing a similar problem. (Tenses)

i'd had an interview for a post in my new school.
I had an interview for a post in the new school I attend. (i'd is short for I had.)

Perhaps because of it is a mandarin school,
Perhaps because it is a school where mandarin is the language of instruction/where mandarin is used widely/other acceptable options. When you place the adjective, in this case "mandarin" before the noun, in this case "school" most people consider it to become part of the noun which would be then rendered meaningless. "Mandarin School" means a school that educates members of the bureaucracy/people of high position in society.

Then all of a sudden,
Use either Then or all of a sudden. In this context using then indicates a flow or progression in the events. All of a sudden would mean an unplanned interruption to the flow of events.

In fact, it is quite pathetic that we couldnt use english freely in school just because we are able to converse in other languages like mandarin.
In fact, it is quite pathetic that we aren't allowed to use english freely in school and are instead forced to use other languages like mandarin etc. (couldn't indicates an inability to do a specific task, in this case conversing in English)

But it is not the case in other races, as my friend, an indian, who couldnt converse in mandarin, are using english to everyone in school.
As my friend, an indian (You are already referring to A PERSON which is A singular), who couldn't converse in mandarin, IS (Singular Person) using English to speak to everyone in school.

Don't take it too hard. Common errors among Malaysian students haha!

[Miracle_seed]

For the record, I am not from an English background where my family speaks English at home. However, it is true that through schools, one can polish their speaking skills there, and it is also true that there are not many "pure" English schools left in Malaysia.

It is also true that students who are good in English are picked for debates, public speaking, etc. but none of the above should deter anybody with the intention of improving their spoken English to do exactly that - that is, to improve their spoken English.

Even though you may not be selected for competitions, one should participate in debating clubs, Toastmasters Club, etc. if you are really that keen to sharpen your oratory skills. This can be the preliminary stage towards improving your spoken English, and besides you get to sharpen your mind, too, through all the debates and sharing of ideas. You get to kill two birds with one stone, as they say.

Yes, indeed, students in rural areas may be the most affected, or afflicted, group of students in terms of the quality of spoken English. Then again, it boils down to awareness and realisation. A city child who could not be bothered about the importance of English and is unaware of the fact may still lose out to students in rural areas.

Indeed, perhaps the best environment to practise your spoken English would be in college or university. Then again, it is never too late to learn.I guess the problem still lies with the schools... In premier schools, activities like debates, public speaking, Scrabble have their respective clubs, but there are still many schools especially in rural areas without such clubs, and all such activities come under English Society, which sometimes under hibernating state (This happened to BM Society in my school for quite few years)... It is indeed quite helpless sometimes at school level, leaving only English teacher to speak English to you...

Anyway, I think learning is never too late, college/university time is just the beginning of adult life...
But it is not the case in other races, as my friend, an indian, who couldnt converse in mandarin, are using english to everyone in school. So try to imagine how awkward it is if a third person( chinese) joins our conversation, where i gotta use mandarin and then he is using english.In this case, his first language is already English, thus he has no choice but to use English. I have some Indian friends too, who can speak only English and Malay. It's actually not uncommon to see two people talking into each other in different languages/dialects yet understand each other. I've seen some people talking to the other in Mandarin and English respectively, because one can converse in one language better but can understand the other... In fact this is uniqueness of Malaysia...

[Athersin]

I admit, it might be unfair to see that English-educated students tend to fare better in English than Chinese-educated ones, but this is no reason for Chinese-educated students to give up on improving English, or even attempting to make English as one of your main media of communication. You should remember that being Chinese-educated, you already have a high proficiency of Mandarin which English-educated students will definitely not have (even if they do, their level would generally not be as high as those from Chinese schools). To focus more on the English language will not cause your Mandarin to deteriorate, thus if you were to pay more emphasis on your English, no doubt you would see results in a matter of months.


It takes time, I know. But we have an average of 75 to 80 years to live. Therefore, time should not be a factor. I just bid you to be patient.

Haha, it is very encouraging and pleasurable to get the expertised advice from you , henry. I agree wholeheartedly with your statement above. Though i have a very good command of chinese, and yet couldnt neglect the importance of english as well. Indulging in literature is my favourite past time of course i am not he type of english-navvy person that highly engrossed and value highly the status and importance of literature, i just read spme shallow , and simple pieces of wrtting of some famous writers.

In the mean time, i have put a lots of efforts to improve my english, even though i comes from a chinese educated family, but learning a language which is not my mother roots and tongus surely not a bed of roses for me. And again, thanks for the insightful comments of fellow recomers.
Bravo to those chinese educated person who are willing to put their efforts into the extreme state for an improvement by leaps and bounds. And i salute them so much.:)

[henry_yew]

Athersin, you are spot on about "surely not a bed of roses". Nothing is a bed of roses in life. We constantly have to make decisions due to the constant amount of stress that we face every day. If life has been a bed of roses, the world could have been a very boring place to live.

But even though life is not like a bed of roses, we can emulate the attitude of the river. Just as Hans Christian Andersen put it in "The Wild Swans": "It is true that the water is softer than your hands, yet it shapes hard rocks."

If you are persistent, consistent and determined, you will be like the flowing water where any challenges you face while speaking English can be dealt with.


As my friend, an indian (You are already referring to A PERSON which is A singular), who couldn't converse in mandarin, IS (Singular Person) using English to speak to everyone in school.

Don't take it too hard. Common errors among Malaysian students haha!

Yes, these are some common errors that are often overlooked by Malaysian students, even me, I admit. But here is a minor correction that should not escape your eye:

Not "indian", but "Indian".

[vikraman]

That I suppose is a relic of Manglish. Culturally we no longer refer to ourselves as a "special" noun ie. Indian, Chinese etc. I apologise for my error. :)

[starlemon]

Well. during the time when i was going back to my hometown, i spotted a malaysian old lady, she looks so much like an asian chinese but speak english with a very fluent intonation. Whe she spoke with the rapid bus driver, surprisingly, she was scolded and scorned by the chinese driver who tend to think that she is trying to show off. Vulgar words split all over with the intensed anger: 'What is the heck of that language! Are you chinese?!!!'
It is indeed very ironic.

[chongkeat]

Well. during the time when i was going back to my hometown, i spotted a malaysian old lady, she looks so much like an asian chinese but speak english with a very fluent intonation. Whe she spoke with the rapid bus driver, surprisingly, she was scolded and scorned by the chinese driver who tend to think that she is trying to show off. Vulgar words split all over with the intensed anger: 'What is the heck of that language! Are you chinese?!!!'
It is indeed very ironic.
What you have just described is the essence of the English Dilemma. (pun, yes.)

Showing off is an damning taboo in our humility-conscious society, but we should, you know, cut people some slack?

Anyway, the more important issue here is the bus driver scolding people for such trivial reasons. And not just any people, but an old lady??! Now that's just too much!

[starlemon]

What you have just described is the essence of the English Dilemma. (pun, yes.)

Showing off is an damning taboo in our humility-conscious society, but we should, you know, cut people some slack?

Anyway, the more important issue here is the bus driver scolding people for such trivial reasons. And not just any people, but an old lady??! Now that's just too much!

Yes, it is very insighthful you know. This shows how low the mentality of our malaysian..perhaps i hope it is just a few black sheep tainting the reputation around.:wink.but not the majority.

Speaking english is not the way of showing off. but it is a very unique and concerted ways of learning this globalised language. try to think of a bunch of benefits by grasping this english language, not the stupidity of flaunting around.

[youngyew]

Well. during the time when i was going back to my hometown, i spotted a malaysian old lady, she looks so much like an asian chinese but speak english with a very fluent intonation. Whe she spoke with the rapid bus driver, surprisingly, she was scolded and scorned by the chinese driver who tend to think that she is trying to show off. Vulgar words split all over with the intensed anger: 'What is the heck of that language! Are you chinese?!!!'
It is indeed very ironic.
Where did that happen? I thought in big cities like KL speaking English in the public is quite common.

[chongkeat]

Well,
1) There's Rapid in Penang too
2) He did suggest that they were the few bad apples......

[starlemon]

Where did that happen? I thought in big cities like KL speaking English in the public is quite common.

It is at penang.
So ironic to experience that . the construstive ways to change the mentality of malaysian towards the acceptance of english should be mapped out strategically. or else this phenomenon would be a norm.

[chongkeat]

the construstive ways to change the mentality of malaysian towards the acceptance of english should be mapped out strategically. or else this phenomenon would be a norm.
Well, change is already happening. People are already starting to get used to talking in English nowadays. We are less apprehensive about perceived "showing-offs". I think it will all come in due time......

[Miracle_seed]

In Malaysia, we should know when and where to speak English, since not all Malaysians understand English. Some people might get mad just because they don't understand the language while thinking you're trying to show off. For me, in daily activities, I wouldn't have English as my first choice, Mandarin/Cantonese/Hokkien would be my first choice with Chinese depending on places and definitely BM with Malays, of course I mean in public places or government department. I've heard of a similar story, that someone get scolded in government office for using English: You ingat sini mana? Malaysia ke England?

[henry_yew]

Well, at least here in Tronoh where my campus is located, the locals, though are not very well educated, respect the fact that not ALL Chinese students can speak Mandarin or Cantonese/Hokkien/Hakka. Thus, not only have the hawkers here taken the trouble to provide an English-translated menu for the Chinese illiterate students, they have also taken the initiative to understand some English themselves.

With such a positive learning attitude as displayed by the locals here "in the middle of nowhere", it has actually helped them made more business. Also, with such a positive learning attitude as displayed by the locals here "in the middle of nowhere", I'm actually quite surprised that there are people in big cities like Penang reprimanding others for using English, and in quite a rude manner, too.

This inferiority complex, I hope, will gradually wear off.

[Miracle_seed]

Somehow, from what I observed, most Chinese who couldn't speak Mandarin can speak at least one dialect, it's very rare to see Chinese who can speak only English and BM, or at least I haven't met any so far...

[henry_yew]

Well, then you haven't met my friend who can speak neither a dialect nor Mandarin. XD

Such people do exist, only at smaller numbers.

But even if they can speak a dialect, for example, Cantonese, it will be quite useless in places where Cantonese is not spoken by the locals (except by people of Cantonese origins), and if you do not know Mandarin, you are pretty much stuck with either English or BM.

[TheArtOfMedicine]

In Malaysia, we should know when and where to speak English, since not all Malaysians understand English. Some people might get mad just because they don't understand the language while thinking you're trying to show off. For me, in daily activities, I wouldn't have English as my first choice, Mandarin/Cantonese/Hokkien would be my first choice with Chinese depending on places and definitely BM with Malays, of course I mean in public places or government department. I've heard of a similar story, that someone get scolded in government office for using English: You ingat sini mana? Malaysia ke England?

Exactly! Can't help agreeing with you! I, too, had quite a bad time while I was studying in KL as many of the hawker stall owners didn't speak Mandarin but Cantonese instead, which I was yet to get a grasp of.(No one spoke Cantonese in my hometown). And so, I was forced to make my order in English which resulted in a few unpleasant incidences(i.e; being told not to show off). Also, I have to admit that I'm a very poor Malay speaker and I was literally left with only two choices, English, or the dialect I used to speak back home which no one understood. Obviously, I chose the former.

[eve88]

Somehow, from what I observed, most Chinese who couldn't speak Mandarin can speak at least one dialect, it's very rare to see Chinese who can speak only English and BM, or at least I haven't met any so far...

I'm guilty of that.

(unless you count kindergarden-level Mandarin...)

[tent]

This is a never ending discussion. I am surprised when it comes to discussing this subject hardly anyone addresses the issue of the importance of reading at early age. It is unfortunate that this is also overlooked in the education system. There is the Nilam project that is supposed to promote reading among school children. However, sadly to say the approach is not right.

The Nilam project does not promote reading as in to inculcate the love of reading but rather who is the champion as judged by the nos. of book read by a child per year. In addition, a child's reading progress is not monitored except probably by a few concerned parents.

When it comes to children, the school and parents must work hand in hand. My mum had the opportunity to work at a primary school in UK and one of her task is to listen to readers. It is such a joy to see the children developing their capability in reading. In addition to that in their English lesson, besides reading the children are also taught to retell the stories that they have read in writing. The children gradually develop the skills in writing and more importantly at expressing themselves. These are being taught to the children at the age of 5. While she is concentrating at teaching her older children and younger adult how to write, reading and writing at such early age must be considered as well.

Fortunately for me, I come from an English speaking background. Most of my friends too come from the same background but I noticed that their command in English can be somewhat terrible at times. I guess parents too have to play their role in educating their children about the importance of mastering this language.

I was quite disappointed that the government failed to recognize the importance of this language until maybe recently. For example, it is a MUST to pass your BM paper in SPM in order to get your cert, should you fail the subject, you would fail all your papers but it is ok if you fail your English paper because all you have to do is just take that subject again in college/uni level.

I remember going for an interview for a part time job with a call centre which requires you to be 100% fluent in English and they gave really tough questions which I can't really remember now and gosh, I did take quite some time in answering it and making sure that my answers are relevant to the question as well.

My two sen in this subject matter =)

[wei0927]

i really hope can improve my english skills,but the ppl around us didn't like to use english to communicate,so until nw i oso can't corrrect my improper english,damn sad.hmm,i have a suggestion that can anyone do as my english teacher?

[Dominic]

i really hope can improve my english skills,but the ppl around us didn't like to use english to communicate,so until nw i oso can't corrrect my improper english,damn sad.hmm,i have a suggestion that can anyone do as my english teacher?

try watching more english television series. it'll help with your pronounciation of words. read more too so you can learn new words and phrases. :)

[youngyew]

i really hope can improve my english skills,but the ppl around us didn't like to use english to communicate,so until nw i oso can't corrrect my improper english,damn sad.hmm,i have a suggestion that can anyone do as my english teacher?

You are doing pretty well. From what I could tell, you seemed to have translated directly from Chinese language when you wrote the above (I really hope can improve my English skills). To be able to write and speak English better it's important to do the whole sentence construction in English instead of translating from Chinese. In Chinese we say 我真的希望可以, but in English we say "I really hope I could".

[wei0927]

try watching more english television series. it'll help with your pronounciation of words. read more too so you can learn new words and phrases. :)
thx for yr advice o!!!i will try to do it.n yr blog is very nice...:)

You are doing pretty well. From what I could tell, you seemed to have translated directly from Chinese language when you wrote the above (I really hope can improve my English skills). To be able to write and speak English better it's important to do the whole sentence construction in English instead of translating from Chinese. In Chinese we say 我真的希望可以, but in English we say "I really hope I could".

ya...:)u r right,my english is mainly translate from chinese to english,because before that no someone correct my mistake until nw.hehe,but fortunately,i met u,really appreciate yr correction .thx so much!:))..i got a blog,aim is improve my writing skills,if u free,can go 2 visit it,n can oso help me correct my mistake in tat writing.(xiao0927.blogspot.com).haha,sry for making u trouble!.:)

[Dominic]

thx for yr advice o!!!i will try to do it.n yr blog is very nice...:)



ya...:)u r right,my english is mainly translate from chinese to english,because before that no someone correct my mistake until nw.hehe,but fortunately,i met u,really appreciate yr correction .thx so much!:))..i got a blog,aim is improve my writing skills,if u free,can go 2 visit it,n can oso help me correct my mistake in tat writing.(xiao0927.blogspot.com).haha,sry for making u trouble!.:)

haha...I'm the exact opposite of you. My Mandarin isn't very good so I usually translate from English to Mandarin... :P

[bush]

As long as one is determined to learn and to improve, everything else is not important. So what if other people ridicule you for trying to speak proper English? Biarlah, you syok sendiri sudah lah, orang lain bohsiong, dia punya problem.

I'm learning french.......but very koyak, I don't care, I speak to everyone,french girls find my french cute, I suka, I syok sendiri.

[wei0927]

haha...I'm the exact opposite of you. My Mandarin isn't very good so I usually translate from English to Mandarin... :P
hehe,then we can learn from each other lo.i learn english from you n you learn chinese from me.haha..:)

As long as one is determined to learn and to improve, everything else is not important. So what if other people ridicule you for trying to speak proper English? Biarlah, you syok sendiri sudah lah, orang lain bohsiong, dia punya problem.

I'm learning french.......but very koyak, I don't care, I speak to everyone,french girls find my french cute, I suka, I syok sendiri.


ooo.u study at french??..haha..first time known someone who can speak french,happy,nice 2 meet u:)

[bush]

hehe,then we can learn from each other lo.i learn english from you n you learn chinese from me.haha..:)




ooo.u study at french??..haha..first time known someone who can speak french,happy,nice 2 meet u:)

You have the vocabulary, but the tenses and syntax semua kelam-kabut. Reading will help. Try harry potter or something less intense. If you don't want to spend money, just surf the BBC, read everything they have on their site. BBC English is particularly good for learning English.

I am not in France. Once you have had enough of English, you could learn French. Learning French after English makes English so much more sensible.

[Dominic]

hehe,then we can learn from each other lo.i learn english from you n you learn chinese from me.haha..:)




ooo.u study at french??..haha..first time known someone who can speak french,happy,nice 2 meet u:)

LOL! Great idea! :))

[wei0927]

You have the vocabulary, but the tenses and syntax semua kelam-kabut. Reading will help. Try harry potter or something less intense. If you don't want to spend money, just surf the BBC, read everything they have on their site. BBC English is particularly good for learning English.

I am not in France. Once you have had enough of English, you could learn French. Learning French after English makes English so much more sensible.

undoubtedly,i agree of you.my grammar all kelam kabut....ok,thx yr suggestion so much!:))....

LOL! Great idea! :))

haha,can describe as 一举两得.....:)

[Dominic]

undoubtedly,i agree of you.my grammar all kelam kabut....ok,thx yr suggestion so much!:))....



haha,can describe as 一举两得.....:)

??? Sorry, can't understand Chinese words... :)

[wei0927]

??? Sorry, can't understand Chinese words... :)
its means one stone can kill two birds.haha:)

[CelineD]

haha...I'm the exact opposite of you. My Mandarin isn't very good so I usually translate from English to Mandarin... :P

Same here...:amuse In my case I'll speak Mandarin to my Chinese friends, and then I run out of words and add English...

(off topic sharing)Being a Chinese legally but not technically can be quite weird sometimes, but it's fun! I have a Chinese legal name and all, but because I'm half-Indian people usually think that I'm either a Malay or Punjabi...(Yay, 1Malaysia!).
The fun stuff I did with my friends:wink:

I notice that some pure Chinese I know are a bit shy to talk to me...so what I do is I'll go talk to them in Mandarin, and they'll be BOTH shocked and feel funny at the same time, then they'll get all curious and ask more about this. (in the end some of these friends are now my best friends!:amuse)

And, if people are gossiping about me or someone else in Chinese thinking I don't know it, I somehow like to barge in and nicely interrupt IN Mandarin, and I love seeing the looks of it on their faces! MWAHAHA...(sound evil leh) Now I wished i can understand tamil...(end of off-topic sharing)

Actually I think that one does not have to speak with their friends in English when they feel more comfortable in mother tongue...that's why normally I speak Chinese to a Chinese, Malay to a Malay...don't know Tamil but if I did I would say it to an Indian as well. It opens up people to you:)

[vseehua]

I believe you guys can learn English much faster if you stop using short-forms or sms-speek here. ;) Plus, it makes your posts a lot easier to read.

[wei0927]

Same here...:amuse In my case I'll speak Mandarin to my Chinese friends, and then I run out of words and add English...

(off topic sharing)Being a Chinese legally but not technically can be quite weird sometimes, but it's fun! I have a Chinese legal name and all, but because I'm half-Indian people usually think that I'm either a Malay or Punjabi...(Yay, 1Malaysia!).
The fun stuff I did with my friends:wink:

I notice that some pure Chinese I know are a bit shy to talk to me...so what I do is I'll go talk to them in Mandarin, and they'll be BOTH shocked and feel funny at the same time, then they'll get all curious and ask more about this. (in the end some of these friends are now my best friends!:amuse)

And, if people are gossiping about me or someone else in Chinese thinking I don't know it, I somehow like to barge in and nicely interrupt IN Mandarin, and I love seeing the looks of it on their faces! MWAHAHA...(sound evil leh) Now I wished i can understand tamil...(end of off-topic sharing)

Actually I think that one does not have to speak with their friends in English when they feel more comfortable in mother tongue...that's why normally I speak Chinese to a Chinese, Malay to a Malay...don't know Tamil but if I did I would say it to an Indian as well. It opens up people to you:)


then now your chinese got improvement??...thx for u sharing a great experince when communicate with chinese person..:)

I believe you guys can learn English much faster if you stop using short-forms or sms-speek here. ;) Plus, it makes your posts a lot easier to read.

i agree v u....:))

[vseehua]

i agree v u....:))Then why are you still using short-forms?

[wei0927]

Then why are you still using short-forms?

so sorry...习惯了。but i will try to correct it back...:)

[vseehua]

so sorry...习惯了。but i will try to correct it back...:)Good effort there =):amuse

[CelineD]

then now your chinese got improvement??...thx for u sharing a great experince when communicate with chinese person..:)

You're welcome=)

I speak English at home...mainly because since young I was taught in English...it's like our 'common language' in a mixed-culture (we share the same faith though) family. My dad however decided to send me to a Chinese primary to communicate with his side of the family which is Chinese speaking. I continued Chinese education until SPM (got a B though). I can pick up some Tamil from daily use at home, but due to lack of formal education+desire to self-learn languages(even Chinese, until I went to school) I can't speak it. malulah...the formal education factor is what made me being able to improve in both spoken and written Mandarin...as well as great friends too:wink

[nittu]

Same here...:amuse In my case I'll speak Mandarin to my Chinese friends, and then I run out of words and add English...

(off topic sharing)Being a Chinese legally but not technically can be quite weird sometimes, but it's fun! I have a Chinese legal name and all, but because I'm half-Indian people usually think that I'm either a Malay or Punjabi...(Yay, 1Malaysia!).
The fun stuff I did with my friends:wink:

I notice that some pure Chinese I know are a bit shy to talk to me...so what I do is I'll go talk to them in Mandarin, and they'll be BOTH shocked and feel funny at the same time, then they'll get all curious and ask more about this. (in the end some of these friends are now my best friends!:amuse)

And, if people are gossiping about me or someone else in Chinese thinking I don't know it, I somehow like to barge in and nicely interrupt IN Mandarin, and I love seeing the looks of it on their faces! MWAHAHA...(sound evil leh) Now I wished i can understand tamil...(end of off-topic sharing)

Actually I think that one does not have to speak with their friends in English when they feel more comfortable in mother tongue...that's why normally I speak Chinese to a Chinese, Malay to a Malay...don't know Tamil but if I did I would say it to an Indian as well. It opens up people to you:)
Oh.. You are an Chindian uh?? I also have some friends that can speak chinese very well but they are pure indian.. Their parents send them to chinese primary school.. So when i meet them during form 1 i was quite shock to know that they can speak chinese but i took the advantage and learn some chinese words from them..:P I agree with you that one does not have to speak English with their friends all the time.. Im comfortable speak in my mother tounge(Tamil) with my friends, Malay with my Malay friends but unfortunately not chinese with chinese friends.. Wish i can learn chinese one day.. However English is still important and have to improve it.. At my home we use tamil because my parents could not speak english very well and to tel the truth is when i was in primary school i really feel scared and not confident to speak in english.. So what i do is i watch a lot of english movies, series and read more english articles.. That help to improve my english.. Then when i was in secondary school i attend the tamil language class and learn how to read tamil words.. So my brother cannot bully me anymore by writing words that teasing me in tamil.. haha.. I can read ready what now.. So its good to know more language..:)

[wei0927]

You're welcome=)

I speak English at home...mainly because since young I was taught in English...it's like our 'common language' in a mixed-culture (we share the same faith though) family. My dad however decided to send me to a Chinese primary to communicate with his side of the family which is Chinese speaking. I continued Chinese education until SPM (got a B though). I can pick up some Tamil from daily use at home, but due to lack of formal education+desire to self-learn languages(even Chinese, until I went to school) I can't speak it. malulah...the formal education factor is what made me being able to improve in both spoken and written Mandarin...as well as great friends too:wink

actually i very admire those people grown up in english communication environment just like your situation that can speak english at home.:Phaha.

[youngyew]

You have the vocabulary, but the tenses and syntax semua kelam-kabut. Reading will help. Try harry potter or something less intense. If you don't want to spend money, just surf the BBC, read everything they have on their site. BBC English is particularly good for learning English.

I am not in France. Once you have had enough of English, you could learn French. Learning French after English makes English so much more sensible.
Just to add on to what Bush said. When you come across a term, a phrase or particular combination of verb and conjunctions (like "get over with") that you are not familiar with, go to google or dictionary.com or any of your favourite resource to look it up immediately. Remember, you are on the Internet where everything is one Google away, so make good use of the resource.

(If you haven't come across the phrases "make use of" or "come across", go look it up now and learn them and remember to use them the next time in an appropriate context :) )

p/s: Sorry I actually mean "preposition" not "conjunction". Guess how I corrected my mistake? I wasn't sure whether "with" is a conjunction, so I looked it up and found that it's actually a preposition. :)

[CelineD]

actually i very admire those people grown up in english communication environment just like your situation that can speak english at home.:Phaha.

Erm...thanks? it's admirable? It's just the family actually...Every family has a medium of communication and in my case, because my family is mixed we use English...that's all...

Know what I really admire? Those who didn't come from native English speaking families but(!) are willing to learn the grammar, vocab etc., of English and use and speak it without worrying about feeling 'pai seh' or shy, just like what you and our fellow Recommers are doing!:amuse

Actually you guys got advantage...As an non-native speaking English(or any other language)learner you all do pay attention to the vocabulary, noun/verb usage, prepositions etc and get good at it. However, guess what? I don't know what "prepositions", "conjunctions" or even "articles" mean WITHOUT referring to a grammar book or dictionary, and in most cases when I write essays or answer questions I just answer based on what makes sense more...and I don't really use fancy vocab(like I do in BM and BC)but use everyday-speak...

Any thoughts?:amuse

[Glassylicious]

I don't know what a preposition or conjunction is either. XD

[Lance_Kuan]

The same goes to me. IDK how to differentiate between conjunctions prepositions or whatever T.T

[Dominic]

The same goes to me. IDK how to differentiate between conjunctions prepositions or whatever T.T

Me too. I know how to use them without grammatical errors, but ask me what a verb or an adverb is, and I won't be able to answer you. :P

[henry_yew]

The same goes to me. IDK how to differentiate between conjunctions prepositions or whatever T.T

It's simple, dear friend.

Examples of conjunctions: because, or, and, as, therefore, so, etc. etc. etc.

Examples of prepositions: on, under, below, above, over, etc. etc. etc.

Examples of verbs: write, read, eat, talk, etc. etc. etc.

Examples of subject-verb agreement: is, are, was, were, etc. etc.

Me too. I know how to use them without grammatical errors, but ask me what a verb or an adverb is, and I won't be able to answer you. :P

A verb is an action, e.g. "write", "walk", "talk", etc. etc.

An adverb describes the action, or the verb, e.g. "loudly", "briskly".

An adverb usually comes after the verb, e.g. "walk briskly", "talk loudly", "write legibly", etc. etc.

[Lance_Kuan]

so typically adverb is adjectives+'ly'?

[CelineD]

Me too. I know how to use them without grammatical errors, but ask me what a verb or an adverb is, and I won't be able to answer you. :P

Same here... :)

It's simple, dear friend.

Examples of conjunctions: because, or, and, as, therefore, so, etc. etc. etc.

Examples of prepositions: on, under, below, above, over, etc. etc. etc.
...
An adverb describes the action, or the verb, e.g. "loudly", "briskly".

An adverb usually comes after the verb, e.g. "walk briskly", "talk loudly", "write legibly", etc. etc.

So a "conjunction" is a word that joins sentences and a "preposition" describes relative position? Did I get this right? (I was thinking of the BM and BC equivalents of both terms to understand them, so not 100% sure...)

And, an "adverb" describes the verb, which is an action word. Are adverbs actually adjectives plus the -ly suffix, or...?

(Forgive me for my not-so-good grammar knowledge...)

[youngyew]

Nah I am not saying that you need to know what conjunctions and prepositions are in order to be good at English. Learning language shouldn't be that dry. :)

[vseehua]

I have forgotten about most of the grammatical terms :P

[Lance_Kuan]

Nah I am not saying that you need to know what conjunctions and prepositions are in order to be good at English. Learning language shouldn't be that dry. :)

Just wondering, well maybe it helps in the future :P

I have forgotten about most of the grammatical terms :P

Aha it seems that many of us face the same problem :))

[yanno_yamster]

haha...I'm the exact opposite of you. My Mandarin isn't very good so I usually translate from English to Mandarin... :P

I think in Cantonese when I speak in Mandarin (sad, huh), so at times I mispronounce words in Cantonese, lol...

[Dominic]

I think in Cantonese when I speak in Mandarin (sad, huh), so at times I mispronounce words in Cantonese, lol...

I don't know Cantonese at all, and when I speak Mandarin, the English words in my brain have to be slowly translated...:P

[henry_yew]

Same here... :)



So a "conjunction" is a word that joins sentences and a "preposition" describes relative position? Did I get this right? (I was thinking of the BM and BC equivalents of both terms to understand them, so not 100% sure...)

And, an "adverb" describes the verb, which is an action word. Are adverbs actually adjectives plus the -ly suffix, or...?

(Forgive me for my not-so-good grammar knowledge...)

Yes, a conjunction not only joins sentences, but can also join phrases and clauses. And a preposition will tell you the relative position of an object, so you are correct on that part, too.

so typically adverb is adjectives+'ly'?

Yes, adverbs can be thought of as adjectives with the suffix "-ly", but more accurately, they are words that describe the verb.

I am not an English major myself, so I am sure someone in the field of TESL or B.Ed. can explain better.

There are many other grammatical aspects in English that we take for granted, e.g. gerunds, pronouns, articles, tenses, interjections, etc. etc. etc.

[youngyew]

Yes, adverbs can be thought of as adjectives with the suffix "-ly", but more accurately, they are words that describe the verb.
Adverbs also include words that describe adjectives, or even phrases or sentences. Some people describe it as a "catch-all" category.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverb

[henry_yew]

Adverbs also include words that describe adjectives, or even phrases or sentences. Some people describe it as a "catch-all" category.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverb

That's true, e.g. "seriously ugly", "shockingly silent", etc. etc.