Bond to JPA

[ianbyc]

What is your opinion about this? Of course, we should be grateful, no questions asked. But is serving your country what you REALLY wanted? I know some friends who prefer to migrate and say a lot of shortcomings about the government. I have nothing against them but somehow I dislike people who are unpatriotic.

I say that with dignity even though I have to serve 10 years after coming back, since I'm doing medicine.

[youngyew]

What is your definition of patriotism?

For many, serving the country is not the main problem, the horrendous working condition is what is hindering them from coming back. Better pay in foreign countries, yes; but with a starting salary approaching 4k, this is no longer that big of a issue for new medicine graduates.

[Miracle_seed]

For many, serving the country is not the main problem, the horrendous working condition is what is hindering them from coming back. Better pay in foreign countries, yes; but with a starting salary approaching 4k, this is no longer that big of a issue for new medicine graduates.Working condition is the main aspect to improve for doctors working in government hospital. Anyway I was wondering, since statistics shows that there will be more doctors than enough approaching year 2015, will the heavy workload be reduced then?

[youngyew]

Total number of doctors is not the only factor affecting the workload. The distribution of responsibilities, the geographical distribution as well as the number of specialists are very important too. There is no point having thousands of doctors when a significant proportion of them end up serving in unpopular small clinics, opening cosmetic stores or earning big buck in the private hospitals (not to discredit the contribution of those in the said fields)

[Glassylicious]

What is your opinion about this? Of course, we should be grateful, no questions asked. But is serving your country what you REALLY wanted? I know some friends who prefer to migrate and say a lot of shortcomings about the government. I have nothing against them but somehow I dislike people who are unpatriotic.

I say that with dignity even though I have to serve 10 years after coming back, since I'm doing medicine.

Well, to be honest, I don't really see any problem with how they feel about their bond as long as they actually serve the bond as stipulated. =P If they were REALLY unpatriotic they'd just run away to another country without serving the bond.

My only concerns are that I might rot working in a government office, given the working environment and conditions there. *sighs* This is assuming they DO have a job for me though.

[slumber]

its not about patriotic, some people just hate to be attach but prefer to be pampered

[youngyew]

Slumber, if you know a bit more about the working environment of our government hospital, I guarantee you won't say that.

[slumber]

why is it so? explain to me.
im afraid u dont understand with what i said.

[youngyew]

You assumed that people don't come back just because they are "pampered", and as a person in the know, I respectfully disagree as I know for a fact that this is untrue. So if you are afraid that I didn't understand you, would you mind to elaborate on your point?

The working condition in the government hospitals have long been known to be grueling - imagine having to work 36 hours non-stop at least once every week during your first two years. Having to deal with grumpy seniors (yes colleagues in our hospitals can be very hostile, partly attributable to the lack of sleep and the enormous amount of stress). Racism, favoritism and egotism abound.

This is a rather huge part of why people are not coming back. You mentioned that people don't want to be attached and bound to government service, that I concur - staying back in the government hospital mean that you need to deal with low pay even by the time you become a specialist, and that is definitely not what most people look forward to. However, to oversimplify the whole issue as a matter of "people becoming too pampered" is most untrue - it's not as simple as that. Talk to someone in the government hospital - sometimes they are even sicker than the patients from over-exertion.

[slumber]

see, u dont understand my point.. what im saying is,
dont like being attach = bond 10 years
but loved to be pampered = they want the scholarships (as if like pampered) but dont like to be attach ( which is bond for ten years ).some people like me doesnt like the 10 years bond with the government as i dont like to be working in the same condition for ten years.

my mind doesnt complicated as yours. sorry for the interrupting this conversation.

[youngyew]

see, u dont understand my point.. what im saying is,
dont like being attach = bond 10 years
but loved to be pampered = they want the scholarships (as if like pampered) but dont like to be attach ( which is bond for ten years ).some people like me doesnt like the 10 years bond with the government as i dont like to be working in the same condition for ten years.
Did you read my previous post? Let me requote it:
This is a rather huge part of why people are not coming back. You mentioned that people don't want to be attached and bound to government service, that I concur - staying back in the government hospital mean that you need to deal with low pay even by the time you become a specialist, and that is definitely not what most people look forward to.
Which part of this paragraph is a misunderstanding of your point? Read properly before alleging people as not understanding you.

[slumber]

haha.. wow.. i really dont see that! is it on previous post?
hmmmm...my bad...should i discard from this forum?
like vikraman said, i should read from previous post b4 i made a conclusion.


really d*** a***

hahaha

[DoomScythe]

Well, to be honest, I don't really see any problem with how they feel about their bond as long as they actually serve the bond as stipulated. =P If they were REALLY unpatriotic they'd just run away to another country without serving the bond.

My only concerns are that I might rot working in a government office, given the working environment and conditions there. *sighs* This is assuming they DO have a job for me though.

I agree whole-heartedly. I really think that as a scholar, one should always serve the minimum bond, as stipulated in the contract. No stupid excuse would justify the act of defecting to another country/forgoing the bond, as long as you are called to serve your bond. Those who did the above are just selfish morons (pardon my usage of words, but I really do think so).

However, if JPA were to release you after a year of unemployment since the day you report back, then I think it is fair (as said by them as well) for you to request for a release of bond. I always believe in honouring a contract that one signed when one decides to take up the scholarship.

[youngyew]

I agree whole-heartedly. I really think that as a scholar, one should always serve the minimum bond, as stipulated in the contract. No stupid excuse would justify the act of defecting to another country/forgoing the bond, as long as you are called to serve your bond. Those who did the above are just selfish morons (pardon my usage of words, but I really do think so).

However, if JPA were to release you after a year of unemployment since the day you report back, then I think it is fair (as said by them as well) for you to request for a release of bond. I always believe in honouring a contract that one signed when one decides to take up the scholarship.
If JPA does not give you any job after one year (which is the norm for most graduates except medicine, dentistry and pharmacy), you are considered released automatically and you do not have to do a thing.

Anyway before anyone starts thinking that I am shamelessly rationalising absconding act, let me preemptively clarify that I am merely stating the reason behind the act instead of justifying the act from the ethical standpoint.

Absconding is wrong, there's no question about it. Whether the lack of insight at the age of 17 should come into the picture is quite another question.

[DoomScythe]

If JPA does not give you any job after one year (which is the norm for most graduates except medicine, dentistry and pharmacy), you are considered released automatically and you do not have to do a thing.



If I remember correctly, you are supposed to write to them to ask for an official release.


Absconding is wrong, there's no question about it. Whether the lack of insight at the age of 17 should come into the picture is quite another question.

Well, I personally don't think there's "quite a question" about that. Half of those who signed the contract after getting their SPM results are already 18, with the other half 6 months to 18. 18 is the legal adult age in Malaysia, that's the age when you can drink, get married without your parents permission, open a bank account in your own name, etc.

While I acknowledge that not everyone is very matured by that age, everyone has to pay for the choices they make. Plus, the way I look at it, it is not that you are not given a job for 4 years. JPA scholars will get a job, and they WILL get paid, albeit less than private sectors. Those who came out and whine about serving the country is just selfish morons. However, on the matter of coming back later, say 4-6 years after graduation, I am supportive of that. As long JPA scholars serve their bond in thier lifetime (but don't come back after 20 years lar, you'll just be too old. I also doubt the words of someone who says that they will come back after 20 years.), that's fine.

[youngyew]

If I remember correctly, you are supposed to write to them to ask for an official release.
Why should we? The contract only lasts that long, after that they have no right to ask you even if they want to.

Well, I personally don't think there's "quite a question" about that.
Me neither.

While I acknowledge that not everyone is very matured by that age, everyone has to pay for the choices they make.
That just about sums it up. I guess an important point not to be missed is that at the age of 17, many people don't jump in with the intention of absconding in the future. However, many people changed their mind as time passes by. Yes by law and by ethics there are little to no excuse for them to abscond; but the fact remains that this IS a major factor for abscondment and regardless of our criticism and contempt, hundreds of people are still going to do the "dishonourable" thing. They continue to enjoy a luxurious life overseas, all the while blissfully ignorant of our vehement protest.

So instead of delusionally wishing for the imaginary moral lash to bring the cows home, we should perhaps channel some real energy in solving the problem. Like, stop giving scholarship recklessly altogether, or effect a stringent measure to punish the absconders instead of letting them run scott free.

[DoomScythe]

Why should we? The contract only lasts that long, after that they have no right to ask you even if they want to.


I remember that there was no such escape clause in the contract (could be wrong, but unlikely). The "you're free after one jobless year" policy is obtained through verbal confirmation from the JPA officer. Therefore, if I remember correctly, there was a statement from JPA that one should request for a release after 1 year of unemployment.


So instead of delusionally wishing for the imaginary moral lash to bring the cows home, we should perhaps channel some real energy in solving the problem. Like, stop giving scholarship recklessly altogether, or effect a stringent measure to punish the absconders instead of letting them run scott free.


I agree with what you said here. The solution is rather simple actually, charge them in court. By doing so, every rational minded person (I assume that all scholarship holders are rational here. They might not be, but ....... ) will definitely either:

1. Pay a hefty fine
2. Serve the agreed years

Well, for this to work, I have a (great) suggestion. Indoctrinate the next generation of JPA Law scholars with great moral values. Have them come back to the country and file lots and lots of lawsuits against those who absconds. This should solve the problem. xD

[Glassylicious]

Well, for this to work, I have a (great) suggestion. Indoctrinate the next generation of JPA Law scholars with great moral values. Have them come back to the country and file lots and lots of lawsuits against those who absconds. This should solve the problem. xD

Now THIS I wouldn't mind doing. Bring on the paperwork! =D

Anyway, I really think they should crank up on the enforcement a bit. There's a lot of talk about filing lawsuits against absconders but I don't think a lot is done in reality.

[chenchow]

On the situation at government hospitals, I would say that it varies by locations. I have a number of friends who are serving at various government hospitals, and I would say that the situation varies.

Like those in Penang General Hospital, I know of some who are doing locum almost every day (whenever no on-call), to earn extra income. There are some hospitals/clinics that are more slack, and also from what I understand, it varies by departments as well. So, you would go on rotation, and certain departments/tasks are more taxing.

Above is from someone who has never worked a second in hospital, and is based on what I heard from my friends.

On serving the bond, my opinion is that one should try your best to see how you can contribute back. While it is true that once the 12 months expire (from the day you report to SPA), you're contractually off the contract, but you might want to contribute back to the country through other means or in the future.

Say you renege your contract and work elsewhere, you can share your experience at various platform (including ReCom) and help others to learn. I am not saying that this would be equivalent to serve the bond, but it is a way of you giving back too!

And while you would be serving 10 years in hospital, it is not same department, same hospital all the while (again, if I am not wrong).

Maybe those of you who have had the experience in the hospital, to come forward and share your first hand info.

Looks like this discussion has been swayed towards the bond for medical students.

[DoomScythe]

Now THIS I wouldn't mind doing. Bring on the paperwork! =D

Anyway, I really think they should crank up on the enforcement a bit. There's a lot of talk about filing lawsuits against absconders but I don't think a lot is done in reality.

Heheh, so here we have our first JPA Law student, ready to grill other scholar's a$$. xD

[youngyew]

<Digression> Glassylicious is a law student? </Digression>

Looks like this discussion has been swayed towards the bond for medical students.
I guess it's because the original poster mentioned 10 year bond, which is only the case for medicine and dentistry.

[nhling]

Now that many has discussed about the critical field such as Medicine, Dentistry and Pharmacy.I like to ask about students studying Engineering who are/were JPA scholars before.

As I'm a PPC (Program Pelajar Cemerlang) student, currently doing Masters Degree in Mechanical Engineering in Japan, I like to know about the how's the bonding like.

Indeed I'm bonded to gov for 5 yrs in the contract but so far I have heard there's limited vacancy for engineer in gov. Due to that, I'm doing my job hunting in Japan now. I'm considering using "recommendation" to get a job and with that method, there is an unspoken contract of working for the company for 3 yrs.

Here I like to ask if there is any PPC student who works in the public service department or who knows clearly about this bond. If you have this experience, pls tell me your way of solving it. Btw, what are the jobs available for mechanical engineers in gov?

Thanks in advance.

[Leen]

I know someone who graduated in US with an engineering who is currently working in Silicon Valley earning more than USD7k a month. It is really easy for engineering student to just take a summer holiday after graduation, go back to Malaysia, report to JPA, go back to US/UK .. etc (with your job waiting of course) and work there and not worry about a thing after that. I might be overgeneralizing but I've seen several people who have done that.

[gajan]

well i think since u wanted the scholarship in the 1st place. U shld serve the bond. I mean if u want question tht it is not so comfortable to work in malaysia ...working condition not condusive ....pay not much ....etc. Then u Should not have applied and accepted the scholarship in the 1st place. JPA is goverment agency , they offered the scholarship coz they wanted the best minds under them. Plus , JPA scholarship is first and foremost a financial aid. It is not a reward to the best student in the country. It is part of the affirmative action for those needy and poor people to climb up the economic ranks. The point is the scholarship is a privililage and not ur right. BUT i understand if u like to serve a few years overseas ....before coming back. Tht way , u can earn much sort after working experiance. I feel tht JPA scholars shld work in workplace of their choice for the first 7 years to gain experiance. then they can intiate reforms and be more productive when they start to serve the government.

[ianbyc]

well i think since u wanted the scholarship in the 1st place. U shld serve the bond. I mean if u want question tht it is not so comfortable to work in malaysia ...working condition not condusive ....pay not much ....etc. Then u Should not have applied and accepted the scholarship in the 1st place. JPA is goverment agency , they offered the scholarship coz they wanted the best minds under them. Plus , JPA scholarship is first and foremost a financial aid. It is not a reward to the best student in the country. It is part of the affirmative action for those needy and poor people to climb up the economic ranks. The point is the scholarship is a privililage and not ur right. BUT i understand if u like to serve a few years overseas ....before coming back. Tht way , u can earn much sort after working experiance. I feel tht JPA scholars shld work in workplace of their choice for the first 7 years to gain experiance. then they can intiate reforms and be more productive when they start to serve the government.

Well imho the question of SHOULD does not come into view.. it is the matter of MUST. I mean, nothing comes free on this world. You get scholarship, you serve government. Sounds like a good deal to me.

Plus I personally don't find the whining about poor working condition and low pay discouraging. From medicine point of view, those working in government hospitals might be working their a** off but they get a fair compensation for the work. H.O. (housemanship) averages around 4k already, that's right after graduation. You might argue its the highest among fresh graduates but take into factor the workload, senior abuse, rude patients, stress and such, its fair. Plus serving the public's interest should be what JPA scholars instill in themselves. Personally I find the prospect of being in the forefront of doing good and serving others exciting.

[bachok83]

One cannot simply assume the worst in government hospitals. Government hospitals has come a long way. Doctors are not as busy as they were few years ago.

Trust me, it would be a heck a lot better to start with government hospitals where there arent many to sue your a** compared to doctors in the private sector.

As Jordin Sparks says, "one step at a time." If you can get some positions overseas, make sure it's not just for the money, you need to be in the forefront of the research.

One cannot simply assume that the grass is always greener on the other side until you've experienced both. Yes, you will have A LOT more spending power in the states for example, but you have to make a A LOT more to overcome taxes.

If you've been posted to say, Kedah (they have huge new hospital there), i would say you are damn lucky. A bungalow in Kedah is around 200K, while a small apartment in Penang would set you back at around 230K. Seriously, DO THE MATH.

I would say this though. I prefer to be in the states, because (seriously, i mean this) they have a lot of theme parks...