The problem facing STPM achievers [Archive]

chenchow

28-05-2004, 10:06 PM

I think the government has been pretty transparent on this issue, although there would tend to be problem.

I have as such, think of a way, and what I have done was to do a pretty detailed-analysis on the students from my high school, Jit Sin High School, a vernacular school.

My school has 237 students took STPM last year.
Of which, 214 have managed to secure places in local universities, with a large number of students get their first choice. I am not sure whether those 23 have decided to study elsewhere, or have entered job market etc. But I think 90.3% of students get IPTA is pretty good an achievement.

Of those 214, 69 get USM, 52 get UM, 34 UPM, 29 UUM, 18 UKM, 7 UMS, 2 KUSTEM, 1 UTM, 1 KUTKM, 1 UPSI.

This is the statistics supplied by government.
Medicine:- 779 (Tlt) 439 (Bumi) 297 (C) 43 (I)
Dentist:- 209(Tlt) 123 (B) 79(C) 7(I)
Pharmacy:- 270(Tlt), 89(B) 174(C) 7(I)
Law:- 240 (Tlt) 47(B), 145(C), 48(I)
Accountancy:- 1469(Tlt) 845(B) 573(C) 51(I)
ECE:- 1530(Tlt), 1113(B) 357(C), 60(I)
Chem Eng:- 772(Tlt) 489(B), 259(C) 24(I)

I have also done an analysis of the performance from my school.

4 students get medicine (1 UM, 1 USM, 2 UKM). Last year, my school got 6 students get A for Biology in STPM. Not sure how many choose Medicine, but 66.7% of those that get Biology A in STPM get medicine, I think is pretty good statistic right? Not sure the other two select medicine and not get it, or they have other options.

None from my school get pharmacy or dentist.

For Law, 4 get UM, which I think is pretty good achievement, as it is 1.67% of total law places available and all 4 get UM.

For Accountancy, 21 get it. 11 to UUM, 6 to UM, 3 to USM and 1 to UPM. This is 1.42% of total accountancy places in IPTA.

For ECE, my school has 7, 5 USM, 1 UTM, 1 KUTKM.
For Chem En, my school has 2, 1 UPM 1 UMS.

May be everyone can go and do an analysis of your school to see the real situation.

jiinjoo

29-05-2004, 01:24 AM

Great analysis - cannot imagine myself digging that much information.

The news article caught me by surprise in some ways: There's only 1 bumi who went through STPM and got into medic. Is it supposed to be that way?

Eventhough I'd buy the "get on with life" thing after seeing so many top scorers in the world who can't get into the university they want to go to (I mean look at the top university's admissions rate - 5%? 10%? Turning down half the 1600 SAT score people with multiple AP credits and plenty of leadership positions etc.?), I still hope to see More Schools and More Teachers. True, we have IMU, and there are also places to go to elsewhere in the world, but teaching resource fundamentally lacking in the first place.

Not to say that no one did anything. By expanding the intake by 5%, means that they have already put in more money for more teachers. However, there can be many ways to tackle this problem. The one I like best - is TA - Teaching Assistants.

As far as I know, you can't just be a TA, if there's one in the first place. Few things - undergrad TAs are cheap (they have no degree yet); they are good because they can be selective chosen from the top 10 to 20 students in the class; they teach because they want to, or they like to, or they want to get closer to the professor's research, or they just want to boost their CV; and they have the materials fresh in their minds (just learn it last sem maybe?)

If each course can be assisted by a number of students, then the money can be spend for other things.

Let's build a university! Who's with me? :)

chenchow

29-05-2004, 03:10 AM

Perhaps someone could shed the lights on how many bumiputera:chinese:indian in matrics and STPM, so as we can see the ratio.

For the CGPA 4.00, right now:-
Form 6:- 527 (Tlt), 1 (B), 503(C), 23(I)
Matrics:- 1247(Tlt), 789(B), 419(C), 39(I)

Having teaching assistant could be a solution. However, there would need to be good monitorization. Or else, it could be abused. Students may purposely give their friends higher grades etc. Some TAs may be more lenient, and as far as I see, not every TA is very dedicated.

And also Malaysia has built a number of new universities, where they take in students too. However, a look at my school, majority still goes to UM, USM, UPM, UKM and UUM. Anyone has any statistic on how many students KUTKM, KUSTEM etc are taking in?

chenchow

29-05-2004, 04:03 AM

Just gets another piece of stats, which is raised in Nanyang. The number of applicants for IPTA for Chinese actually drops.

Total applications for STPM 2003 and (STPM 2002 in bracket) are as follow:-
Total : 85,966 (71,625) = 20.02% increase in total applicants.
Bumi: 63,603 (49,804) = 27.71% increase in applicants.
Chinese: 16,501 (17,025) = 3.08% reduction in applicants.
Indian: 5,862 (4,796) = 22.23% increase in applicants.

Students accepted into IPTA:-
Total:- 38,892 (37,034) = 5.02% increase in total accepted
Bumi:- 24,837 (23,182) = 7.14% increase in accepted students
Chinese:- 11,778 (11,921) = 1.20% reduction in accepted students
Indian:- 2,277 (1,931) = 17.92% increase in accepted students

Acceptance Rate:-
Total:- 45.24% (51.71%) = reduction of 6.47%
Bumi:- 39.05% (46.55%) = reduction of 7.50%
Chinese:- 71.38% (70.02%) = increase of 1.36%
Indian:- 38.84% (40.26%) = reduction of 1.42%

So, I guess for the Chinese community, one thing to look into is the reason why fewer people are applying for IPTA. Is it because of reduction in birth rate? More people are sidestepping Form 6? Or the government abolishment of Remove, which resulted in a huge increase of non-bumiputera students for STPM 2002. So, may be this is part of the reason.

Is the reduction of acceptance rate healthy? About 54.76% of students apply don't get any IPTA. Where would they go? How many would further studies? How many would enter the job market?

If I am not wrong, when I took SPM, each batch is about 450,000, and now it is a size of about 86,000 applicants, which is less than 20% of the cohort. Where do the 80% go to? How many percent has further studies abroad? How many % has entered IPTS or local colleges? How many % has gone for diploma? How many % has entered job market? etc etc...

Perhaps, for the future of Malaysia, we should look into all these issues...

misled_youth

29-05-2004, 09:27 AM

Okay, what went wrong here? Lack of places for medicine in local unis? Too many STPM top scorers? Too many matriks top scorers? Too many top scorers in general? Or is there really no problem at all and those that didn't get medicine courses should just get on with life?

Do a comparison with Chinese owned Media (the star, Chinese papers etc.) and Malay owned Media (NST, Berita Harian, Utusan) and you'll see the problem.

Meritocracy ala Boleh-land doesn't work.

1. Headline in NST: Bumis continue to do well.

Bumiputera students secured more than 60 per cent of the 38,892 places in public universities, continuing to flourish under the merit system introduced two years ago.

But they did not do as well as their non-Bumiputera friends in science-based courses and their representation was low in some critical courses.

2. Headlines in Malay newspapers:

Berita Harian: Jumlah Bumiputera paling ramai sejak meritokrasi dilaksana: 24,837 diterima ke IPTA

Utusan Malaysia: Bumiputera meningkat: Meritokrasi todak halang lebih ramai layak ke lima fakulti kritikal

3. Headlines in the Chinese papers:

Sin Shew Daily: Though making up 30.3% of total intake, university admission for Chinese dropped by 1.9%

Nanyang Siang Pau: University admission for Chinese dropped by 2% with 12,000 new intakes.

Year in year out, this has been a problem, but what has the government done about it? It has seem Malaysians have reached a point where they actually don't mind having their tax money funding the studies of lesser qualified students, at the expense of the better qualified students.

Why would we want to study hard if we were to know that we won't be rewarded?

For the system to change, we must change the government. For the government to change, we must change ourselves.
________
VAPORIZER INFO (http://johan-luis.tumblr.com/)

gohweihan

29-05-2004, 04:49 PM

It makes no good to look at statistics about how many STPM students apply for university and how many got it. Instead, we should focus on the big picture, that is how many actually got into universities from both STPM and matriculation combined.

Let's do a detailed analysis of the biased meritocracy system in Malaysia.

Unfair CGPA system

Looking at the minimum requirements of courses like dentistry and pharmacy, it is impossible for anyone in STPM to qualify for those courses UNLESS he or she got straight As. This is because any STPM student who gets anything less will not meet the minimum entry CGPA of 3.94. Consider these two situations below (note that each A carries a GPA of 4.00, and an A- at 3.67):

1. A student who took four subjects, scoring 3 As and 1 A- will have a CGPA of 3.9175 (rounded to 3.92).

2. A student who took five subjects, scoring 4 As and 1 A- will have a CGPA of 3.934 (rounded to 3.93).

Therefore, this situation benefits the people from matriculation, as they can get any CGPA in between 3.93 and 3.99, in which will qualify them for these courses while STPM students don't.

A minimum difference in CGPA for an STPM student who takes 4 subjects is 0.0825, while for one who takes five subjects, the minimum difference is 0.066. Although it might look small, these are actually a disadvantage for STPM students, because unlike a linear CGPA scale for matriculation students, STPM students are subjected to a rather discreet set of CGPA.

Quality of matriculation against STPM

Although enrolment in Form Six is higher than in matriculation, the number of students with CGPA 4.0 in matriculation outstrips those doing STPM. This again raises the question of the marking scheme for the two systems. How equitably is the one-and-a-half year A-levels equivalent pitched against the one-year internally examined matriculation?

It is claimed that STPM and matriculation is on-par, and that is why the common CGPA system comes into place. However, judging by the method and contents of both the STPM and matriculation syllabus, it is very clear that STPM is indeed a harder and more in-depth syllabus.

Besides, consider these two statements:

1. All universities worldwide that accepts matriculation accepts the STPM qualification.

2. Not all universities that accept the STPM qualification accepts the matriculation.

These two statements are enough proof that matriculation is indeed inferior to STPM. Universities like Nanyang Technological University, UC Berkeley and National University of Singapore DOES NOT accept matriculation while accepting STPM as an A-Level equivalent.

Furthermore, as it is made public, the selection process for students to qualify into matriculation does not depend solely on the academic achievement during SPM. Therefore, it can be said that not all matriculation students (non-bumiputeras included) are equivalent in quality to the straight A scorers who decided to take STPM. The question is, if so many matriculation students can get a CGPA of 4.00, when the selection criteria does not select the best of the best, how can it compare to STPM, where there are students who score straight As (as opposed to those scoring As in subjects required to qualify for matriculation) and chooses to go for STPM, yet not being able to obtain a CGPA of 4.00 (my case included).

The government has yet to give an answer to these questions and statements.

More questions than answers

We are supposed to be satisfied with the numbers given by the government. Yet there are a few more questions seeking to be answered, among them:

1. How many of the 128 students who failed to qualify for medicine are STPM students, and how many matriculation?

2. Why is it that many students that took Biology during STPM be given Physics based courses in universities, when they do not qualify for any of their 8 choices?

3. There is a total of 20026 matriculation students in Malaysia last year, with 6.227% scoring a CGPA of 4.00. Within that, 22.8657% (458) of non-bumiputeras in matriculation managed to score a CGPA of 4.00, as opposed to only 4.3777% (789) of bumiputeras scoring a CGPA of 4.00. In STPM, only 767 out of the 56500 students got a CGPA of 4.00 (which is only 1.357%). Therefore, if so little students can yield so many CGPA 4.00 scorers in matriculation, yet so many students can yield only so little CGPA 4.00 scoreres, how is it that we can compare the results of these two separate systems in one common scale, which is being done now (note the fact that not all who qualify for matriculation are the cream, but it depends also on the place of residence and the monthly salary of their parents)? Besides, considering the percentage of non-bumiputeras to bumiputeras in matriculation scoring a CGPA of 4.00, are we able to imply that these bumiputeras are not on-par with non-bumiputera students all the while along?

4. If the standard of STPM is indeed the same as matriculation, why is it that only 1.3575% (767) students from STPM got a CGPA of 4.00? Shouldn't this number be at least 8741 students (considering that more non-bumiputeras take STPM, the ratio set for my calculation is 60% non-bumiputeras, 40% bumiputeras)?

The_Observer

29-05-2004, 05:13 PM

Its funny why there are quality ppl complaining of lack of places in medicine when the country is short of doctors....lack of hindsight?

I see from the stats here about 779 ppl who got entry to medicine. As far as I know there are like what 5-6 public universities that offer medicine. Knowing how much students (undergrads+ postgrads) being accepted in to 1st year medicine here in Melbourne. 5-6 unis can easily translate into at least 1000 1st-year students...

And the Government is still importing doctors from Burma, India, Sri Lanka, etc.
More cost-efficient than bringing up local doctors?

BTW, that decrease in Chinese application to IPTA comes as no surprise. Melbourne itself is crawling with Malaysian Chinese! (and i mean the non-JPA ppl)

misled_youth

29-05-2004, 05:26 PM

I suggest ReCom to respond to this matter by issuing a press release to all papers. If you want Malaysiakini to run it, I suggest you give it out on a Friday, since they have less stories to run on Saturday's.

Special edition pull-outs like The Star Education is prepared long before printing date. Press Releases get pilled into "To Do" trays. So we won't see it printed straight away.

Suggestions: Prepare Malay, Indian, Chinese and English version.
________
SPACE CASE GRINDER (http://vaporizerinfo.com/)

topdog

30-05-2004, 05:27 AM

the govt can afford to fool around with other programs, if you know what i'm saying, but medicine? that will come back to haunt us sooner if not later.

chenchow

30-05-2004, 05:52 AM

I agree with Weihan about the effect of just 1A- in STPM. In fact, I would like to make slight correction in that even though those students take 5 courses and get 4A and 1A-. Only the best 4 subjects count. Basically it is still the same thing for your argument.

I agree with misled_youth about preparing a press release. Perhaps we should look at the time frame for next 72 hours for ReComers to share on what we want to have in the Press Release and the content in the Press Release. The Press Release needs to look into issues of all perspectives and personally I think we should suggest some remedies, especially we need to brainstorm on some suggestions, ideas that have not yet been suggested out. If we just ramble on the same thing as others, then it will not do any good. So, I guess I open the floor to everyone.

72 hours time frame, which means it will be Wednesday 2nd of June 6am deadline Malaysia time. For other time, just make the calculation yourself, or just look at the Malaysia time on top. So, lets brainstorm.

And then we will have 36 hours time frame to come up with the draft of this paper, i.e. until Thursday 3rd of June 6pm Malaysia time and then we have 20 hours to review it, to get it ready by Friday 4th of June 2pm, for submission on Friday, as suggested by misled_youth.

Lets look at the issues when we discuss. There is no point in bringing the sentiment. Guess our purpose will be to help share idea to build a better education system in Malaysia.

tzuohann

30-05-2004, 05:52 AM

I must say that there is some top quality analysis of the numbers by chenchow and weihan. The nuances in the newspapers reports pointed out by mislead is very interesting indeed. Although I don't know if consideration about how readership influences the nature of the headlines has been weighed against the ownership of the newspapers. IE, Readers of chinese dailys are mostly chinese and hence explaining the headline. But, it sure is interesting, no doubt. I think the idea of a letter saying how we interpret the entrance stats, why is that happening, whats good or bad about it, and how we can alleviate it or make the most out of it would be good. 4 languages will be a plus. Should there be a deadline about it? Man, this is more intersting than pot-tery.

Any deadline? (Mislead, what you think, since you brought the writing part up.) I think this thing needs writing. We should def get it in before the heat of this dies out when ppl start realizing that there is nothing to be done really?

Tzuo Hann@<hidden> Duke

chenchow

30-05-2004, 06:02 AM

One fact disturbs me a bit. Director-General of Education, presented the best student award on 26th of February to a student (I don't have his/her name, except in Mandarin), when STPM results were announced.

He/she did not get his first choice of course for IPTA. Does that make sense? He only got his 2nd choice, which is USM Medicine, whereas his 1st choice is UM Medicine. Although there may be other considerations involved, but all his papers were 1s and being judged as the best student, I think his STPM results were supposed to be the best in the country right?

I just share this for everyone's observation.

I only find this article in Sin Chew http://www.sinchew.com.my/content.phtml?sec=1&artid=200405291898

chenchow

30-05-2004, 06:11 AM

This is sort of a general note:-

This is for anyone who wants to appeal for IPTA, there will be a forum at Wisma MCA, 12th Floor, Jalan Ampang, on 31st May 1pm to 2:30pm. MCA Youth contact number is 03-21618044

http://www.sinchew.com.my/content.phtml?sec=1&artid=200405290930

This is the address for MCA Youth:-
Pergerakan Pemuda MCA Kebangsaan，
Tingkat 7，Wisma MCA，
Jalan Ampang 50450 Kuala Lumpur.

For Malaysian Indians, Dato Seri S. Samy Velu also asked those affected students to submit their appeal to him by Tuesday (reaching him on Tuesday and he will raise it at Cabinet meeting on Wednesday)

Level 5，Block A，
Konpleks Kerja Raya，
Jalan Sultan Salahuddin，
50580 KualaLumpur.
Phone: 03-27714004
Fax : 03-27116361

and

MIC Education Bureau
Level 7，
Menara Manickavasagam，
50350 Kuala Lumpur.
Phone: 03-40454377
Fax: 03-40453730

This is the address of
Pengarah Jabatan Pendidikan Tinggi
Kementerian Pendidikan Malaysia，
Paras 2，Blok J Utara，
Pusat Bandar Damansara，
50604 Kuala Lumpur.

Absolute appeal deadline is 6th of June.

I tried to search for UMNO Youth contact address and phone number from UMNO website, but could not find it. Anyone could share, perhaps this could help those STPM leavers.

aquila

30-05-2004, 08:16 AM

I think since there is such a wide disparity between STPM and matriculation, the govt should perhaps introduce another exam that students from both systems can take. The results from that exam can be compared on top of students' matriculation and STPM grades.

Actually I have the SATs in my mind. No doubt, we should perhaps NOT make students take the American SATs because it's English based and the verbal part is a killer. I'm thinking of maybe a Malay version of the SATs. SAT II can also be implemented to gauge where matriculation and STPM students stand. I think this is the only feasible and fair way to really judge if an A from matriculation is worth an A from STPM.

I can foresee cries and opposition to the extra exams I suggested. After all, don't we have enough exams to burden students already? That, I agree. However, STPM students must remember that the additional exam will be beneficial to them although they will have to work harder. Perhaps not much harder, since they've already learned the material in class. Matriculation students have no reason to complain. After all, all their exams are internalized. Meaning, suppose matriculation teachers and principal want their students to do well, they can just lower the curve. Grade inflation is really easy in Malaysia. I think everyone here can attest to that. Remember your practical exams for PMR and SPM? Didn't any Tom, Dick and HArry get an A for everything? You get my point?

I also don't think an additional set of external examination will be all that difficult. After all, our neighbors across the bridge do that. NUS and NTU require students to take SATs on top of A Levels. A Levels account for 65% SAT 25% and CCAs 5 % in those NUS' admission policy. Perhaps we can also adopt a formula of this kind. With this method, which will be more transparent, there will be a real meritocracy.

THe government is crying out "meritocracy meritocracy!" Unfortunately, the very basis of their judging system is biased. So, what do you guys think?

ingshan

30-05-2004, 12:18 PM

i am quite disappointed with the issue here too...well i'm not giving any statistics here...but i can give you what my brother (victim) experiencing now....

my brother scored 5A in STPM with max CGPA (4.0) and he confidently applied medical in his top 4 choices...unfortunately he was given MICROBIOLOGY in UKM which is his 5th choice...what is the rational of this...

i know many others like my brother is currently suffering...my parents are too worried that they got ill (insomnia, dizzy, loss of appetite). We have to rush to IMU to register on saturday but found out it was open half-day...we live in a place far from KL...travelling makes us all more ill...

at least the politicians form MIC and MCA are willing to give a hand...

but the policy the current goverment holding now discourages candidates to try for 5 subjects...Shouldn't they encourage youngsters to be multi-talent in many planes??? Although they got a 5A in their result...those more hardworking and determined are ranked nothing different than those who takes 4 subjects...

My brother is the top student in the school and the Lower Perak District...he is the first of the kind to get 5A in our place and became Teluk Intan's pride...but after this thing happens...do you know what the going-to-be-taking-STPM candidate thinks..."What's the use of studying...even a 5A cannot secure me into taking medic...so what is the worth getting a 4A??"

I hope when my turn comes...this history won't repeat itself...just pray for my pity brother...and the neglected-future leaders!!!

30-05-2004, 01:36 PM

aquila

30-05-2004, 04:43 PM

It's natural for a bright kid to have lofty ambitions. Maybe in our community that includes being a doctor ? Who knows, perhaps the difficulty of becoming one also increases the prestige? Obviously, it's not one of the best jobs around. So perhaps, we should show some respect for doctor wannabes. (Sorry, too many friends of mine are going to be doctors , that's why I feel like I have to defend them.)

Who doesn't know that medicine is perhaps one of the most rigorous program in university? Shortage of doctors? Ah the irony! Don't blame the Singaporeans for being twenty years ahead of us. They do have our brightest talents after all. Have any one of you hung out with the Singaporeans yet? ;P Usually what they tell me is to go over to Singapore, equal treatment, equal opportunities. Ahhh, not in the near future, I told them, Malaysia is still home. ;P

misled_youth

30-05-2004, 05:37 PM

I'm really busy of late. I cannot write the bloody thing. It has to be short and sweet, like the lenght of an average news article. The most important point needs to go first.

e.g.

----------------------------------
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE 30-Feb-04
ATTN: EDITORS

Recom: Give students a fair-go!

The Worldwide Malaysian Student Network (ReCom) has denounced the failure of the Education Ministry to accomodate top-scorers into desired University courses

Students nation-wide cried foul when... bla bla bla...

"ReCom members expressed their extreme disappointment with the ministry (of education). We expect what the government preaches - Cermerlang Gilang Terbilang. Instead, top students now face harapan hilang," said ReCom spokesperson XXX.

He said the government should... bla blabla

Furthermore... bla blab la

"[quote somemore] bla bla bla", said XXX

ReCom will be... bla bla... to help out disenfranchised students ... bla bla bla

For more information... bla bla... log on to www.recom.org

MEDIA CONTACT PERSONAL:
YYY
Phone number: 123456
Email: kickass@<hidden>

--------------------------------

Wow... pull this off... and you guys will be recognised as BONAFIDE NGO group!!! Remember to prepare Malay and Chinese version.

CC copies to Jeff Ooi, MGG, Straits Times Singapore, Kit SIang, Hadi, Husam Musa, Khairy Jamallydin, Rocket, Harakah, Perspective Pedas, ANYONE you can think off. Rest assured, UMNO papers would chuck your release into the BIN.

Good luck!
________
Laguna Bay II Condos Pattaya (http://pattayaluxurycondos.com)

ydho_6

30-05-2004, 07:15 PM

brief thoughts

History repeats itself year after year.
been there, done that.
sad to see this samsara going on n on.

DecentMerson

30-05-2004, 09:12 PM

3. There is a total of 20026 matriculation students in Malaysia last year. If 22.8657% (458) of non-bumiputeras in matriculation managed to score a CGPA of 4.00, as opposed to only 4.3777% (789) of bumiputeras scoring a CGPA of 4.00, does this imply that non-bumiputeras are smarter than their bumiputera counterparts in the same course (as we know, the method in which matriculation students are selected is not only based on the SPM grades, but where the student stays, and how much his parents earn)? If that is the case, why is there only so few (percentage-wise) in STPM (where the majority are non-bumiputeras) getting a CGPA of 4.00?

i do wanna question this fact... !!!
I think it is not because of non-bumi being smarter or anything... but just that they know that they have "no protection"...
In order to get their first choice, they have to outperform their bumi counterparts...

if u wanna study medicine in local uni, too bad, study 24/7/365 x 2 ... and pray hard... get lucky in ur exam... get very lucky in the marking of the paper... and get most lucky in ur Uni application...
then, maybe u'll be able to get ur place...

1 more problem... why do we need a UPU to settle all the application? can't we adopt the application system of other universities in US, Singapore and UK??
Let the student deal directly with the Uni... the quota system can still be maintained...let the Universities in the coutry to improve themselves to lure best students.....

Wth the new Ministry of Higher Learning, hope that they'll be able to do something right... i hate to admit and see Malaysia being the surrogate mother to thousands of great minds and "forcefully abducted" by the neighbour country every year... thru
Asean Secondary 1, Asean Secondary 3, ASEAN pre-U, Asean U scholarships....

think about this: if every student is given a place to study in their home country... how many of them would like to go to the neighbour country to pursue higher education...

when these students aren't given their option to study in the country, they have to rely on other places... and the first place that comes to mind is no other than our neighbour country... and knowing how smart our neighbour country is... they offer study loan to these students... and when they graduate, in order to repay these loans, they will choose to work in Singapore...(at least they earn in Singapore Dollar and can repay twice as fast)

and later in the near future, our government start to complain that we aren't truely Malaysian... and they will have all sorts of scheme (which takes years to be approved) to ask professionals in other countries to come back to serve the country...

after being denied once (for not getting wat they want in the uni appli), do you think they will want to comeback???

I don't think so....

wat's ur say???

chenchow

30-05-2004, 10:59 PM

Personally, I disagree with the version taht misled_youth provided. It won't be helping ReCom anything, but just we are yet another of the rest... We need to have something that people can read and think that the solutions/suggestions/idea we provide, could help improve the education system, or the entrance system. There is no place for racial emotion here. What we need is a good system, that given to a Malay, Chinese, Indian, bumiputera, and all, or at least every community, can be satisfied...

I guess we are right now, all of us are aware of the problem... How are we going to solve the problem? Any good remedy? Remember that we are talking about the entire society... Although it will be ideal to ignore all political consequences, I think it is not possible for us to discount it right?

How could we come up with a system that every one or at least majority is happy?

Will have a common entrance system help a lot? Should we do away completely affirmative action? I think a good cure will be to make the grades stricter, i.e. introduce grade deflation into the system.

Will having good grades make a good professionals? Do all doctors need to be straight As? If not, how could we select transparently? How about other professions?

Minister of Higher Education is contemplating giving scholarship to those not getting IPTA for medicine to study at IPTS or abroad. Will this help solve the problem? Will those that get IPTA be unhappy?

I think most of us agree that places should be given to those deserved to study the course of their choices. So, it is up to how it is going to be implemented. We need to ensure the social contract of no community is sidelined.

While we may want to choose to think so, is it that the difference between the races are so apparent? How big is the gap? What is the reason behind it? If we do perfect meritocracy, what will happen? How about the quality of students that are studying in Form 6 and matriculation? How is the difference? Hope that those who are in the system could enlighten us.

I know that I am not offering any solution, but I am trying to keep the discussion going and hopefully we need to think of a good solution/suggestion.

naturesimple

31-05-2004, 12:11 AM

just watched tv lastest news. DPM najib said the system merit is a 'kelegaan' for the non bumi. n those who question it especially political leaders r trying to raise up the racial issues.........

WAT THE.....???!!!!

misled_youth

31-05-2004, 04:27 AM

Personally, I disagree with the version taht misled_youth provided. It won't be helping ReCom anything, but just we are yet another of the rest...

Yo yo... that's just an example lah... you guys must make it up yourself. Just use the template I provided.
________
Glass Pipe (http://glassgallery.tumblr.com/glass-pipes/)

phantom

31-05-2004, 09:35 PM

gohweihan wrote:
Besides, considering the percentage of non-bumiputeras to bumiputeras in matriculation scoring a CGPA of 4.00, are we able to imply that these bumiputeras are not on-par with non-bumiputera students all the while along?

let me remind you that the smartest bumi students with 10,11 A1's plus 1A for english 1119 cambridge are either studying hard in getting straight A's for A-level or perfect score in IB,or perhaps months away from departing overseas.

that leave behind the left-over bumis who either dont secure a scholarship or have matriculation as their last choice.some of them may have grades,others dont.

i believe race has nothing to do with your grades.it's how hard and smart your study will determine e'thing.

and pls,bear in mind,today's bumis are not far away anymore.they get 93% for physics just like any race.

aquila wrote:

But in education? I don't think that's really fair. Let's not event talk about fairness. Talk about basic human dignity.

hey aquila,i understand your agriness.

but let us also not forget that there are also so many bumi students with 81A's and 1 2A who didn't get any uni!!and mind me,those who even get it received ridicolous courses like Diploma Perikanan,Diploma Perkayuan,Diploma Bank amid their 9 A's in SPM.
what da heck they wanna do with diploma perikanan?

i think the crux here is the method of choosing students.

how they actually choose students and place them according to the courses the students wanted?

is the thing done by the computer or hand-picked?

if it is done by the computer,are the unis have any involvment like in the UK system?

or is it solely done by the computer by tracking results and courses?if so,is it trustworthy?

i know about 90 000 students applied and reading 90 000 application forms are nightmares,but this is someone's life,someone's dream.

i dont think SAT should be implemented.i think it is a dumb exam.the disparity among the black and white here in usa is 203 points!!that's huge number and dont assume that the blacks dont have brains.plus,the richer kids may have the option to take prep classes and left the poor kids beated to the ground.

i think,the school results must be taken into account.seriously,getting no.31st in the form and receiving 10 A1's in SPM doesnt make you more qualified than someone who has been 1st in the form but managed only to get 9 A1's and 1 A2.but in our current system,we only care about the goverment based exams and failed to magnified their past achievements like most unis in america do.

so what with your 5 A's in STPM when in school exams you barely make the grades.doesnt that mean he/she is a last-minute worker who doesnt deserve medic in the 1st place?

interview is darn important too.come one.that's how you understand someone well.not only by STPM or matriculation grades.

3rdly,students must not be taken for granted.each individual deserve to be treat with respect.that means,writing personal essays should be implemented.that's for one sake,will care to determine someone's honesty,dream and vocabulary.

4thly,if there are too much demand and less supply for medic,the goverment should perhaps set medical school entrance exam.that's what they have been doing in India,where the ranked students from 1st to the 1 million.even in usa,the competition to enter medical school is darn stern.

another big thing with we malaysians is that,malaysians only know doctor,engineer,accountant and scientist.

in my case for an example,i wanna be a doc until i was in form 3.i love bio so,so much.but when i was in form 5 i made my mind,i wanna major in one of the pure science branch rather than being a doc and keep working in a place which smell antiseptics all the time.

the reason i wanna be a doc: i dont know any other career,i think being a doc means i wont be laid during economic turmoil and stuff.little i know how disgusting medic actually is.

and talk about cajoling JPA to give me my current course instead of medic!!

seriously,we need to preach to our young generation about ample of job choices out there.you can be a financial engineer,a forensic scientist,a geophysicist,oceongrapher than just.. cikgu bila saya besar nanti,saya nak jadi doktor,saya nak tolong orang susah,saya tak nak kenakan bayaran kat mereka. (yeah right!!big time liars!!)

The_Observer

31-05-2004, 10:15 PM

So long as this government stands, any problem that has surfaced before will surface again....mark my words. At least, from a medical point of view. I am a medical student so forgive my harsh words.

I had said it before and I will say it again:

Malaysia had, has and will produce many quality personnel (doctors too ;p). It is poor policy planning and lethargic implementation which dragged the country into this educational quagmire.
They have $ for all sorts of spin projects but insufficient funding for education and health. And I thought, a government is for the benefit of the people...

We want to be at the forefront of pushing towards developed nation status? We need the best, and I mean the best talents, our country can produce to lead the way.
The recent STPM controversy shows how much the Government don't understand the situation.
They say it should not be a racial issue...but they sure did not have any qualms about raising it themselves!!

I like this quote:
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." --Albert Einstein

BTW, who are you, mr. phantom, to question our motivations to become doctors???
Although what you say abt ample job opportunities are true, but wht we are dealing here are ppl who are the creme de la creme (well..almost) of our country's education system. The ppl most qualified to take up professional jobs like being a medical doctor..

USSDefiantNX74205

31-05-2004, 10:26 PM

the richer kids may have the option to take prep classes and left the poor kids beated to the ground.

Isn't the situation the same here in Malaysia?

i think,the school results must be taken into account.seriously,getting no.31st in the form and receiving 10 A1's in SPM doesnt make you more qualified than someone who has been 1st in the form but managed only to get 9 A1's and 1 A2.but in our current system,we only care about the goverment based exams and failed to magnified their past achievements like most unis in america do.

so what with your 5 A's in STPM when in school exams you barely make the grades.doesnt that mean he/she is a last-minute worker who doesnt deserve medic in the 1st place?

So what if you get 5As in STPM??? If you barely make the grades in school, how do you get 5As in STPM? Maybe you are not familiar with the STPM system, but it is really really darn hard to get 5As in STPM - and when you do, it is a really really big deal, unlike matriculation where you just take a semester based evaluation and then forget about everything you learn. Believe me, last minute workers will not even get an A in anything in STPM. They might pass, but they will definitely not get straight As. Maybe you should check with some of our achievers and see if I am right or wrong. BTW, I am in F6 now, and if you are really sure that last minute workers can get straight As in STPM, then I welcome any tips from you.

interview is darn important too.come one.that's how you understand someone well.not only by STPM or matriculation grades.

So says you, but unfortunately our govt does not share the same sentiment. Think: why aren't interviews taken into account when the JPA offered their scholarships? I have friends who scored all A1s and an A2 (in subjects such as moral) but didn't get the scholarship. Interviews in Malaysia? Its a joke. If you're saying that interviews are needed to look at a person's overall character, then I agree. But with the current govt policy in looking at grades first, this will never happen.

another big thing with we malaysians is that,malaysians only know doctor,engineer,accountant and scientist.

C'mon, these people are 20 years old. I believe they have had more than enough time to think about what they wanna do, right? Ridiculing the ambitions of others will not make this issue solve itself.

Now if you ask me, matriculation should be abolished and a standardized exam for all should be in place for all students. I'm not writing in support of STPMs or SATs here. All I'm saying is that all students should go through the same examination so that everyone could be evaluated in the same manner. Also, I think the call for IPTAs to accept these achievers (which means accepting extra students into the course) who didn't get medicine is wrong. We can't just accept any extra students into IPTAs just to satisfy the people and compromise quality. Now I'm not saying that these students don't deserve to study medicine either, but perhaps the govt should find another way to help them (scholarships into private med colleges, etc.) instead of forcing IPTAs to accept additional students against their will. A forced intake will only compromise the quality of our medicine courses. Then again, the govt brought about this problem onto themselves. I'd really like to see how they wriggle themselves outta this mess.

phantom

31-05-2004, 10:33 PM

BTW, who are you, mr. phantom, to question our motivations to become doctors???
Although what you say abt ample job opportunities are true, but wht we are dealing here are ppl who are the creme de la creme (well..almost) of our country's education system. The ppl most qualified to take up professional jobs like being a medical doctor..

excuse me...excuse me again...dude,as long as i know there's no doc in malaysia who will be willing to do the surgery unless you pay the bills and you pay them right.

and before you accuse me as a doc-haters,i myself is a pre-med minor.duhhh!!

back to the real topic...no digression please.

phantom

31-05-2004, 10:49 PM

So what if you get 5As in STPM??? If you barely make the grades in school, how do you get 5As in STPM? Maybe you are not familiar with the STPM system, but it is really really darn hard to get 5As in STPM - and when you do, it is a really really big deal, unlike matriculation where you just take a semester based evaluation and then forget about everything you learn. Believe me, last minute workers will not even get an A in anything in STPM. They might pass, but they will definitely not get straight As. Maybe you should check with some of our achievers and see if I am right or wrong. BTW, I am in F6 now, and if you are really sure that last minute workers can get straight As in STPM, then I welcome any tips from you.

sorry i am not taking STPM..so that might be an underestimation from my side.

but what i meant here,past achievement must be taken into account.not just based on STPM alone.what we should see is a balance results,not swinging results.

Quote:
the richer kids may have the option to take prep classes and left the poor kids beated to the ground.

Isn't the situation the same here in Malaysia

yeap,and that what i meant.

So says you, but unfortunately our govt does not share the same sentiment. Think: why aren't interviews taken into account when the JPA offered their scholarships? I have friends who scored all A1s and an A2 (in subjects such as moral) but didn't get the scholarship. Interviews in Malaysia? Its a joke. If you're saying that interviews are needed to look at a person's overall character, then I agree. But with the current govt policy in looking at grades first, this will never happen.

but let's not forget also about non-bumi with 8 A1's and 1 A2 who managed to impress the JPA's interviewer and now at UIUC,USA.i talked to her sis though who rejected the JPA's scholarship.

let us not compare JPA's scholarship with medical school's scholarship.by keep doing so,we only kept linking them with racial disparity and put the blame on others and hence fail to see the egress.

i believe a fair interview is momentous.maybe having foreigners who have no linked to any race in malaysia might help.eg:the english.

i still remembered a friend of mine who was interviewed for an admission to a medical school in UK and was asked this question:

"all your lifetime,you have been a straight A's students,a successful man,what if one day,you failed to save someone's life for your own mistake,what will you do?".

my friend was left aghast.

i guess,i did mention in a thread about matriculation,that matriculation should go and stpm must be made as a must.i have been the fan of this system for ages,not just today.but what if there are more demand than the supply for medical school?

chenchow

31-05-2004, 11:03 PM

I agree with Phantom pretty much on this issue.

Just a note from announcement by Pak Lah. Those with CGPA 4.00 will get offer of their first choice course (may not be first choice university), but basically if your first choice is medicine, you will get to study medicine, be it IPTA, IPTS etc... He would announce on Wednesday after getting Cabinet's nod.

A good number of top bumiputera are currently abroad or preparing to go abroad. So, they are not part of matrics systems. Among those who don't get scholarship abroad, majority will choose matriculation. So, very few of those top bumiputera are taking STPM.

I agree that most of the problems come from implementation. So, perhaps there could be some ways to help solve the problems, or rather build the Articificial Intelligence in the system. Guess currently, it is computer that makes the selection, with some manual decisions.

However, I think that there must be some kind of wierdness happens in the computer system when those who don't take Physics would get a course in Engineering, and vice versa. Students who don't take Biology and end up with biotech courses. Nevertheless managing these 86,000 applicants are not easy thing.

On suggestion that each university deal with the application, I think it won't be ideal, because many students would have multiple offers, leaving even fewer students that will get their choices.

May be what could be done is that students are selected into their faculties and not the majors.

SAT would not be a good alternative either, I think, as problems may exist, because it don't have anything extra derived other than STPM.

I would suggest interview for those in critical courses. However, we need to have a system to manage the number of candidates to be interviewed. During my time, JPA interview was done pretty seriously. Each student get 15 minutes of real interview generally. However, right now, it is a discussion. May be if there is a way to deal with it, it could be an alternative.

May be there could be some kind of aptitude test, where students would be tested on their knowledge in that field.

May be for instance, students that hope to get into medicine, pharmacy, should have volunteered at least 12 hours in public hospital before they apply.

aquila

01-06-2004, 03:39 AM

Sorry about the previous post. It was stupid and not planned well. Posted it in a fit of fury. Thought of removing it but my internet failed me.

Anyways, I think it'd be fair to applaud the government for major strides they have made in recent years. I remember earlier in high school, getting a Msian govt scholarship was not even dreamed of by non Bumis. Only the super lucky, like 1 in a thousand could really get any govt help. That was why the ASEAN scholarship was incredibly popular among South non-Bumis back then.

In recent years, especially after they introduced the open SPM exam, whereby students get to choose the number of exams they want to take, there had been a surge in the number of non-Bumi scholars. My year, there was a good balance between non-Bumi and Bumi JPA scholars in ATU. Personally, I think the default system of getting straight A1s and getting a scholarship is flawed. But it is also a system that allows many non-Bumis to get scholarships.

Unfortunately, in a country like Malaysia, where racial politics have clouded all affairs for such a long time, any small disparity will be referred back to race, race. It is very unfortunate but I seriously wonder how possible it will be for us to move away from that. Don't believe me? Try removing the default system of granting scholarships to straight A students. You will see streams of letters from MCA, MIC and other "good" people who think that the so called 'smartest" students SHOULD get scholarships. Considering the fact that grade inflation is getting worse in Malaysia these days (1000+students with straight A1s?) a better way of selecting students should be implemented.

Interviews are an excellent way of selecting students. And getting doctor wannabes to intern for at least 1 year (contributing 5 hours per week) at the hospital is a fantastic idea! I think we can perhaps write a letter of recommendation stating that suggestion. Doctors need to be dedicated and if students can't even dedicate a small portion of their time to the hospital, why should they be given medical courses?

Honestly, the idea of tying race with intelligence is a flawed one. Obviously, race has nothing to do with intelligence. I'd say environment and parental influences are perhaps better indicators of intelligence. One reason why you have the non-bumi students outperforming bumi students is not because the non-bumis are born smarter, but because they've been told since young that if they don't do darn well, they won't gain entrance into university or get the job that they've dreamed of. That mindset perhaps forced the non-bumi students to spend hours and hours each week studying. Nothing to do with innate intelligence.

Even getting straight A1s is a matter of pure luck combined with hard work. I know of brilliant students who get olympiad medals and yet fail to obtain straight A1s. Are they dumber than I am? Hell no! I think on a scale of 1 to 100, if they're at 97, normal people like me and my fellow JPA scholars are probably at 80. So what happens to these kids? Well, they go off to Spore!

Spore is like a magnet right now, trying to attract the best minds from China, India and Malaysia. If we are not careful, all our talents will end up there. (so maybe not all but a big number.)

Phantom, I'm curious to know how you are a pre med minor. Where are you now? Upenn? I'm thinking of going premed. Just for the heck of it. Not too much trouble anyways. And I do find myself drawn towards the field. What an irony. I swore to myself never to be a doctor when I finished high school.

chenchow

01-06-2004, 05:24 AM

Right now, I think JPA scholarship is at the ratio of about 1:300, judging that about 1500 scholars with 450,000 students per batch.

I fully agree that the system right now is much more open, or else many of us here won't be getting the scholarships.

I think on this issue, one thing in parallel for IPTA and JPA is that grade inflation happens for STPM, matrics, SPM. Basically any exam. And as many has said, more and more students are getting better results, and people are stilll with the same mind set of grades needed to get courses in IPTA or scholarships.

I wonder perhaps we should really develop the IPTS, and make it really competitive, where students would actually race towards attending IPTS as well. It would be some kind of similar to US, where a number of those top universities are private universities. (I am not saying that public universities are not good, so don't get me wrong). So, at least, in this way, IPTS could absorb more of those more affordable Malaysians. Right now, there isn't much competition to enter IPTS. Basically anyone that meets minimum requirement get to go in.

Yeah, I agree with aquila, that the system of granting straight A1s with scholarships are some what flaws. However, it is almost impossible, especially politically to reverse that trend. To reverse the trend of grade inflation will be almost impossible too, unless something constructive is really done.

Yeah, I think we should come up with some kind of letter/press release on this issue with a number of good suggestions.

For the information of fellow ReComers, the Press Release that we had on "Malaysian Education System", which has been published in The Star and Malaysiakini, has managed to catch the attention of Deputy Minister of Higher Education. Dato' Fu Ah Kiaw considered some of the points as good and he said, some of them may
be picked up by the ministry of higher education. Guess that's a pretty good head start for ReCom!

Getting those Olympiad winners among JPA scholars would be an important thing and in fact within our IPTA system too, since there are still Olympiad in Form 6/matrics level. I agree that perhaps some kind of special advantage could be given to these best brains of the country and at least 3 ReComers here, are among top 2 in Maths and/or Physics Olympiad in Malaysia. I know among JPA scholars, there are a number with Olympiad medalists too. However, we should ensure that there is no leakage of these top talents.

If fact, I think 3 factors have gradually caused not as many top students applying for ASEAN:-
a) Lack of opportunities to go beyond studying in Singapore in universities (to those wishing to study in NUS, NTU, that is a good jumping board)
b) JPA Scholarships given which guarantees a scholarship till Degree level
c) the system that MOE of Singapore of sending fewer and fewer scholars to top 5 or even top 8 junior colleges.

Anyway, guess I digress too far.

Back to the entry to IPTA. I think a way could be devised that those students should at least get a feel of the field they are applying to. For instance, those applying for law, should have at least spent some time intern/ or even just apprentice with a law firm. They may even just do shadowing, but that would be good enough. I guess there are two time slots possible, one may be a few hours a week, like Saturday morning or any evening. Or may be those students could spend the 2 months waiting for STPM results doing that. It would do the students a world of good.

wwhong

01-06-2004, 08:38 AM

about all the stpm top achiever's problem, do u guys feel that it's some kind of politics show? it's like when those people complain not getting into what they want given their excellent results, then some politicians will come in and say, "hey look, you got problem getting a place in university, come to me and i will solve for you. (in return, you pandai pandai lah when come to election which one to draw a cross) and at the same time show to people that they are doing jobs....

just personal view about what i think about that...dun u guys think it's funny that the number 1 top achiever can't even get what he wants? no wonder brain drain happens in m'sia.... when can the education system in m'sia be independent from politics?

misled_youth

01-06-2004, 10:18 AM

This is all excellent material people!!!

I hope someone will compile it and turn it into a press release ASAP. Remember, in the media world, timeliness is everything.

I'm not volunteering. Too busy.
________
PrincessWild cam (http://camslivesexy.com/cam/PrincessWild)

Randomphantom

01-06-2004, 06:33 PM

Weird, and to think that govt sector is losing a doctor a day (sun).

I suggest for a (more) transparent and streamlined admissions system. (if this is vain thinking so be it) FI at least be more transparent about the ratio of medic students between races admitted. Of course, the significant progress of the admission system over latest years is a step in the right direction.

As for STPM, it would likely remain as a standard means for meritocratic admission. Matric would be here to stay too, however 'fair' it is purported to be. Maybe some entrance examination one has to pass in order to enter high-demand fields eg medic? This can be conducted separately by the unis, or maybe even a standardised exam. This would put the lid on any cries of "matric vs STPM".

I can see interviews as a means of admission criteria for 'special' fields like medicine pharma and law. As for it to be an 'excellent' means of gauging suitable candidates, it has to be fair and objective. Preferably conducted by those eminences in the field. I'm not talking about foreigners that at best do not understand our local courses. Maybe a round table discussion ala JPA.
a) Test knowledge about current issues pertaining to the course of study. This is to gauge their motivation in their course of study.
b) Their opinions and stands on issues. EG for medicine -What are their thoughts on malpractises, medicare, abortion?
This will separate the pure textbook mugger from the more deserving interested candidate. Of course, no need to make it another BM oral session or Moral Ed 'nilai' regurgitation. "Are you hardworking and compassionate? Oh of course you are. "

For med student hopefuls, i believe imposing volunteer work on them might not help (maybe a deluge of half hearted students at hospitals) - rather, consider any work related to the course of choice as helpful in judging applicants. eg a temp job at the local practitioners. As such, I still think grades do count.

About the admissions exercise offering crappy majors to some, I do not understand why do such courses even exist. What happened to supply and demand? Unis should prune their faculties of obscure and non-useful courses, and in turn create more places for the popular courses. Yes, there will still be some interested in, say, Marine Studies. But you don't assume any one rejected of all their choices is desperate enough to consider marine studies without a sizable interest of sorts. Well given that its an 'impartial' computer program in charge of this admissions (written by a human no doubt) I say: make the admissions procedure public! Its not like its admission exercises conducted privately by different Unis. Disclose the admissions programming code byte for byte, whatever. The public needs to know! Let these students know that they deserve what they get.

Some may have suggested, if we cannot provide these brilliant med hopefuls with places in local unis here, why not send them overseas/to private colleges eg everpopular IMU on a bonding scholarship? Tackle the brain drain at its roots. But this would create another situation with those stuck in local Us crying foul. People would also go into STPM expecting some form of scholarship overseas. The scholarship chase would continue as if SPM wasn't enough.

Guess the fairest ways to deal with this are to 1)deflate the grades as so to spread out the high scores 2)allocate more places in IPTAs for students 3)introduce stringent admission criteria (as if STPM isnt punishment enough hoho). In the meantime try to appease as many students as possible :p

Sad fact is: malaysia needs to retain its best brains (why do we equate best brains with medicine?). And those second best, sidelined by lower grades, would have no say in the scheme of things. I have friends stuck with lousier choices, and they can only accept with resignation. Guess thats how the world works.

Side note: about the admissions personal statement i believe a med student need not worry about their vocab (going to be crammed with medical jargon) and writing either (doctors handwriting?)
As for that top student applying for 1 choice only. Either he's too arrogant or he's too naive.

ingshan

01-06-2004, 07:07 PM

Know why so many Chineses (22%) get straight As in Matriculation?
Standard is lowered to produce more Malays but as the bar is lowered more Chinese came out. The bar is set so low until we get a horde of As student. Thats why we get an absurd 1200 straight As students. To make it more glaring, they make the ratio 63:33:4. How is it possible to get such a perfect ratio according to races!
So, this year they do not allow outstanding non-bumi SPM students into Matriculation like last year. Gives reasons such as not active enough or too rich. Mostly 4As and 2As got through instead of straight As.
Just hope that the tragedy this year will not repeat itself next year.

misled_youth

01-06-2004, 08:03 PM

Hmm... misled youth feeling sober today. Let's have some meaningful discussions.

ps. Wei wei... those on holidays... compile the damn press release! ReCom boleh!

Know why so many Chineses (22%) get straight As in Matriculation? Standard is lowered to produce more Malays but as the bar is lowered more Chinese came out.

Ok, dude... I share your sentiments. But dude, as blunt as I am known to be, I do not fan the flames of racial sensitivities. Be careful where you thread, as you do not want to step on the toes of a whole ethnic group.

Some of the best scholars I know are Malays.

What we should really be concerned about is the standard of matriculation. Perhaps if we can compare the STPM vis-a-vis matriculation out in the open... we might have something to talk about.

We, the enlightened rakyat should not view this issue as a racial thing, just because the beauracrats framed it that way.

To make it more glaring, they make the ratio 63:33:4. How is it possible to get such a perfect ratio according to races!

Mathematically possible. But it does smell like stratified random sampling done for NS doesn't it? Hmm...

So, this year they do not allow outstanding non-bumi SPM students into Matriculation like last year. Gives reasons such as not active enough or too rich. Mostly 4As and 2As got through instead of straight As.

Interesting observation. Careful though. I hope you got your facts right.

Just hope that the tragedy this year will not repeat itself next year.

Don't keep your hopes up. Want change? Act on it. Write to your MP. Tell your friends/family. Set up a blog. Write to the papers. Pressure ReCom to take an official stand on the issue.
________
Ecigarette 123 (http://www.ecigarettes123.com/)

chenchow

01-06-2004, 09:06 PM

I disagree with ingshan about most matriculation students are 2As to 4As. There are definitely a number of students, including ReComers, who get straight As or near straight As in matriculation.

I agree with misled_youth that we should not fan the racial issues. Lets look at this issue objective.

I think what we need is more suggestions/ideas on how to solve the problems. What is a good and equitable way to solve this problem?

ElansarGelmir

01-06-2004, 09:59 PM

Get the universities to interview the students. Why can't the govt let the universities decide whom they want and who to be rejected? They should do it like the US system, where the candidates apply to the unis themselves, and the unis will decide whether to accept the candidates or not, based on a standardized judgement of academics, ECA, voluntary service, related field experience, and perhaps have their own set of test. Interviews will be carried out when needed, or best, are necessary for those who wish to secure their places in the uni. If the govt is still getting their hands on this matter, and without and any transparency in its system, I believe we will be having the same problem every year.

chenchow

01-06-2004, 10:41 PM

topdog

01-06-2004, 10:41 PM

about all the stpm top achiever's problem, do u guys feel that it's some kind of politics show? it's like when those people complain not getting into what they want given their excellent results, then some politicians will come in and say, "hey look, you got problem getting a place in university, come to me and i will solve for you. (in return, you pandai pandai lah when come to election which one to draw a cross) and at the same time show to people that they are doing jobs....
that's an excellent point. i totally agree. this whole sandiwara is a scam to ensure that people are forever dependent on certain political parties according to their RACE. cina help cina, melayu help melayu, samy vellu helps himself, we are always on guard against The Other but make it a point to put on a show of 'unity' once every 4/5 years. interestingly, malaysians seem to prefer this arrangement. malaysians memang boleh.

so for those who think that this system alone is the "better of two evils", STOP COMPLAINING. you get what you deserve.

gohweihan

02-06-2004, 01:23 AM

gohweihan wrote:
Besides, considering the percentage of non-bumiputeras to bumiputeras in matriculation scoring a CGPA of 4.00, are we able to imply that these bumiputeras are not on-par with non-bumiputera students all the while along?

let me remind you that the smartest bumi students with 10,11 A1's plus 1A for english 1119 cambridge are either studying hard in getting straight A's for A-level or perfect score in IB,or perhaps months away from departing overseas.

that leave behind the left-over bumis who either dont secure a scholarship or have matriculation as their last choice.some of them may have grades,others dont.

i believe race has nothing to do with your grades.it's how hard and smart your study will determine e'thing.

and pls,bear in mind,today's bumis are not far away anymore.they get 93% for physics just like any race.

I'm not questioning that there are smart bumiputera students, but I'm only making a general assumption (albeit a dangerous one) based on the performance of that very group in matriculation. Everyone else not in matriculation is exempted from this conclusion.

If you look closely at the question, it is not about questioning which race performs better in examination in general, but which race performs better when in matriculation. It clearly shows the non-bumiputeras.

Yes, race has nothing to do with grades. Yet we see from statistics that it shows otherwise. When you publish that, it is sure to draw questions, which leads to questions like what I had asked. It is only that the people fear to ask these questions, and that they keep it silent.

Know why so many Chineses (22%) get straight As in Matriculation? Standard is lowered to produce more Malays but as the bar is lowered more Chinese came out.

Ok, dude... I share your sentiments. But dude, as blunt as I am known to be, I do not fan the flames of racial sensitivities. Be careful where you thread, as you do not want to step on the toes of a whole ethnic group.

Ingshan's statement might sound provoking, but it is indeed a logical conclusion. However, as it may seem, that statement cannot be proven true nor false. Therefore, it remains only as a speculation.

However, ingshan's statement that 22% of those Chinese scoring a CGPA of 4.00 in matriculation is a little misleading. It is actually 22.8657% of non-bumiputeras in matriculation scoring a CGPA of 4.00, not only Chinese.

Some of the best scholars I know are Malays.

No one can deny that.

What we should really be concerned about is the standard of matriculation. Perhaps if we can compare the STPM vis-a-vis matriculation out in the open... we might have something to talk about.

We, the enlightened rakyat should not view this issue as a racial thing, just because the beauracrats framed it that way.

Comparing matriculation and STPM is like comparing apples and oranges. Matriculation and STPM is only similar in one thing - they are pre-university programs. All other things about them are different.

To make it more glaring, they make the ratio 63:33:4. How is it possible to get such a perfect ratio according to races!

Mathematically possible. But it does smell like stratified random sampling done for NS doesn't it? Hmm...

Agreed. It's actually 63.2719 : 33.6006 : 3.1275

So, this year they do not allow outstanding non-bumi SPM students into Matriculation like last year. Gives reasons such as not active enough or too rich. Mostly 4As and 2As got through instead of straight As.

Interesting observation. Careful though. I hope you got your facts right.

Matriculation places are offered not solely on the basis on whether you scored only a 1A or 13 1As. It also includes criterias like where the applicant stays, and how much does his or her parents earn. Besides, only four subjects are taken into consideration - Mathematics, Additional Mathematics and two science subjects. Therefore, if the student who applies has 1As in all those subjects (with any other grades for the other subjects), he or she would have fulfilled 80% of the requirements. On the contrary, a student who obtains 10 As, but not 1As in those required subjects, would lose out to the former. This comes from The Star, 26 May 2004.

Deputy Education Minister Datuk Hon Choon Kim said non-bumiputra students were given 2,500 places for the 2004/2005 intake, with a minimum requirement of 88.6 marks.

However, he said, a student with straight A1s whose family income was RM500 and was staying in an urban area would automatically be disqualified because he would only get 85 marks.

Under the present system, 80% of the marks are based on the students? academic achievement and 10% each for their socio-economic status and place of residence.

The 80% is based on four subjects ? Mathematics, Additional Mathematics and two science subjects.

Each A1 will be given 25 marks and every subsequent lower grade will be given two marks less.

The marks for the four subjects are totalled up and multiplied by 0.8.

Students whose monthly family income is less than RM1,000 will get five marks and those below RM500 will get 10 marks.

Those from rural areas will also get 10 marks while those from urban areas get none.

Dr Wee gave the example of two fictitious children to explain his point.

He said the child of a single mother who scored 10A1s would get 80 marks.

He would not get any marks under the socio-economic and residence categories if his mother earned RM1,200 a month and they stayed in an urban area.

Another child of a single mother who scored 2A2s and 2B3s for the four subjects would get 70.4 marks.

However, he would get 10 marks under the residence category if they stayed in a rural area even if his mother also earned RM1,200 a month.

topdog

02-06-2004, 01:43 AM

i think it's time the malays demand a removal of the crutch of preferential treatment in education. how many non-malays are so ready to assume that malays by default are less intelligent because they are helped by the government? this kind of prejudiced and racist thinking will always arise as long as students are systematically divided by race.

the moe must find some way to streamline the pre-u system. belittling matric is unfair because it disregards the achivements of hardworking malay students. on the other hand, if the malays really want to prove themselves equally capable as their non-malay counterparts, they should be prepared to compete on equal footing. right now, there's no denying that matric and stpm are 2 unequal systems.

why do chinese students perform better no matter how many barriers they face? because they have no choice. there's no govt-provided safety net for them should they fail. the argument that chinese are smarter because they are chinese is pure racist bullshit (no matter how the great dr m tried to espouse racial arguments in his nonsense book), just like the argument that learning math in chinese produces better mathematicians because chinese language is superior.

race-based policies have to be dismantled sooner or later. education will be a good place to begin.

misled_youth

02-06-2004, 03:04 AM

Ahh... I feel so at home in ReCom... because so many are more vocal and well read than me... ahh...
________
Paxil Class Action Lawsuit (http://www.classactionsettlements.org/lawsuit/paxil/)

ElansarGelmir

02-06-2004, 02:08 PM

In fact, this was what was done in Malaysia, before UPU comes in. I guess one major problem in it would be that many of those top students would get multiple offers and there would be lots of time wasted in waiting for students to select the offers and then make additional offers to students. In US, guess students apply in December, and admission decision is april and school starts in august.

Whereas in Malaysia, students apply in mid March, admission decision in may and school starts in June. There is this time frame issue that needs to be ironed out.

Can't they have the students apply with their school result first, and then later consider their application again when the STPM is out? Or perhaps have this second intake system, where if there is any place available in the uni, then they can open the application to other students as well for the second intake?

Personally, i think the whole education system needs to be revamped from the beginning, from Form 1. Make it a 4 years of studies instead of 5. But that would be far too digressed to be discussed here.

ingshan

02-06-2004, 02:41 PM

Yeah, maybe my post is a bit sentimental and my stats are not accurate enough but I never said Chinese are better or Malays are not so good or Matri is useless or something...

ingshan wrote:
Know why so many Chineses (22%) get straight As in Matriculation? Standard is lowered to produce more Malays but as the bar is lowered more Chinese came out.

gohweihan wrote:
Ok, dude... I share your sentiments. But dude, as blunt as I am known to be, I do not fan the flames of racial sensitivities. Be careful where you thread, as you do not want to step on the toes of a whole ethnic group.

Sorry... should use the term non-bumiputras. I apologize for any misunderstanding.

gohweihan

03-06-2004, 01:15 AM

why do chinese students perform better no matter how many barriers they face? because they have no choice. there's no govt-provided safety net for them should they fail. the argument that chinese are smarter because they are chinese is pure racist bullshit (no matter how the great dr m tried to espouse racial arguments in his nonsense book), just like the argument that learning math in chinese produces better mathematicians because chinese language is superior.

It is actually when these non-bumiputeras know that they can face up to whatever barriers that the government throws at them, yet outperforming the other race when shown in statistics, that they have this general perception that they are indeed the smarter people. However, that does not mean that they see it as they are smart because they are born of that race.

As we all know, smart in today's world is somewhat determined by the outcome of one's exam results. Therefore, when the non-bumiputeras proove themselves to be able to cope with whatever exam the government throws at them, and knowing that their bumiputera counterparts need matriculation to help them into university, it translates into a situation where they think that they are more capable in overcoming barriers, and therefore, smarter in that sense. It does not mean that they see it as they are smarter because they are non-bumiputeras, as they too admit that there are people from their race that are far from academic excellence.

I would agree with topdog that those who say that they are smarter because their race is smarter is indeed making a nonsensical racist argument.

chenchow

03-06-2004, 10:22 AM

This the excerpt of Question and Answer by NST with Minister of Higher Education, Datuk Shafie Salleh.

http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Thursday/National/20040603083632/Article/indexb_html

jiinjoo

03-06-2004, 10:40 AM

Thanks Chen Chow - that clears up certain matters.

Q: Those who get four points, are they guaranteed to be enrolled in medicine in the future?

A: Next year, we will look into it. We will ask the deans to look into this. I just do not know whether they want to do medicine because they want to do it or their parents want them to be doctors. They must understand the nature of the job as doctors.

DecentMerson

03-06-2004, 11:51 AM

i agree....

and it is not easy to be a doctor..... it is every much much tougher to be a good doctor....

good doctor: u need to love ur job... u need to be a very dedicated person and a very loving one too....

i see no point in taking up medicine just becoz one's parents want him or her to be one... are u sure u can do a great job if u are not into it.... the housemanship alone will kill u..... underpaid, over work.... and those pressure....

so...if those who aren't really interested in taking up medicine and being a GP for his or entire life, pls dun apply for medicine... and let others who are really interested and who understand the nature of the job of bring doctor to apply for it.....

i think the government should implement some new rules for those pursuing medicine in local Uni.... which is too extend the housemanship period to a longer 5 years or 8 years....
give them the scholarship and places they need in taking the medicine course in local Uni....

in this case, it will really discourage those who aren't serious abt being a doctor to apply for it....

and secondly, it will make ends meet... the shortage of doctors problem will be solved....

sorry for the digression... but i dun think this should be in any other thread though....

to the 128 students... CONGRATULATION.... YOU GET WAT U DESERVED..... get on with life and HAVE FUN..... have a good night sleep.... and remember to thank ur family and friends who have sleepless nights becoz of that mishap.....(which happens every year)

1 question.... wat about those who got CGPA of 3.91-3.99???

DecentMerson

03-06-2004, 11:56 AM

and another point of interest....

why JPA chose not to sponsor STPM top scorers to overseas???

i'm not trying to be racist or anything... but i can't really think of any other reason other than because of the races of most of the top scorers in STPM....

maybe i'm wrong.... anybody can enlighten us???

chenchow

03-06-2004, 12:06 PM

I believe there are four reasons(possibly more) JPA do not sponsor those 128 students overseas:-
1. Those students have missed the deadline for application to start class this year, like UK deadline has long passed I believe. So, the earliest time these students can go abroad will be fall 2005.
2. There are quota limits for Malaysians at various universities abroad for medicine. There are limited places, and I know that out of about 300+ JPA scholars at Banting doing IB, only about 70+ manage to get places in UK for medicine, the rest have to go to Australia, New Zealand, Ireland etc.
3. Cost involved. It would cost about RM500,000 to RM1,000,000 to send a student overseas.
4. Providing scholarship for these 128 students abroad will cause lots of problems to those 779 students who get to study at IPTA locally. These 779 are supposedly better performance than those 128 students.

DecentMerson

03-06-2004, 12:33 PM

er.. but i mean why JPA chose not to sponsor STPM top scorers.... right after they got their results together with SPM top scorers...

not only these 128 students.....

aren't they more qualified than SPM students??? the cost problem can be solved by sponsoring less students to the more expensive countries.....

although i'm under JPA - ATU sponsorship, which is one of the most expensive courses JPA sponsoring.... but i do think that there's others who are really as deserving than us, if not more....

for example, JPA can sponsor more twinning program.... or JPA can give more study loan(pay only if ur are performing type of loan) to encourage student to go abroad and study well...

chenchow

03-06-2004, 12:55 PM

In fact, the 1st and 2nd problem that I listed would still happen. Most application deadline would be end of last year for entrance to this year.

In fact, anyone can get study loan from JPA. It is an option open to everyone and almost everyone that applied the study loan would get. It is sort of like you get very good results in universities(1st class or above 3.75 in US if I am not wrong), you would need to pay back only 25% or may be even get it completely waived. If you do poorly, you would need to pay back all of it.

PTPTN serves this function for those studying in IPTA and IPTS, and JPA has such study loans to anyone who wish to study abroad.

ElansarGelmir

03-06-2004, 08:34 PM

Well, I certainly agree that these top scorers deserved more than just being offered a place in uni and some loan. In fact, i believe that JPA can sponsor their studying in IMU if they are interested in medicine. The IMU intake, i believe, is the same as our public university intake.

Anyway, just a report. Out of 7 students in my school who took Bio Chem course who scored 4.00 CGPA flat, onlyone got into medicine in UKM. He rejected it and went to IMU.

chenchow

04-06-2004, 02:25 AM

In fact, I guess the government did consider about sending them to IMU. However, placement in IMU is limited too. IMU has made announcement that they are not able to absorb these 128 students in large quantities. In fact, out of those 128, a few of those would be going to IMU. Currently, if I am not wrong, IMU is taking like 100 students or so for medicine per year, so if they take all these 128, it would mean they have to double the intake, and they are not ready with facilities, lecturers etc to do that.

In fact, this convertible loan is similar to MARA Scholarship , where is students get above 3.5, students pay only 25%. And if above a higher CGPA, it is full scholarship. JPA did that for some of those ATU 7 studying through Sunway College for SPM 2000 batch too.

windy_city

04-06-2004, 02:58 AM

In fact, this convertible loan is similar to MARA Scholarship , where is students get above 3.5, students pay only 25%. And if above a higher CGPA, it is full scholarship. JPA did that for some of those ATU 7 studying through Sunway College for SPM 2000 batch too.

I dun think what you say is correct; the policy about convertible loan has changed about since last year. New policy from JPA about convertible loan, pay back full if you get CGPA below 2.75 , or pay back 25%of what you owe them if you get result better than that.(this is for the convertible loan from JPA)

But it is easy to get 2.75 and above, so it should not be a problem too.

chenchow

04-06-2004, 03:00 AM

For MARA, it is 3.50. I know this because Murshid (my former roommate in freshman year), who has just graduated a few days ago, told me that.

So, it looks like JPA is even more lenient than MARA!

ElansarGelmir

04-06-2004, 02:33 PM

Just wondering... how's the article coming? It's already Saturday. Anyway, i think most of our points here have already been addressed by this Dr. Lee Yan San.

Screening needed for those wanting to pursue medicine

IT is good news that all the 128 top students who want to do medicine have been offered places in local medical schools at the intervention of Prime Minister Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi, ?Places for all,? (The Star, June 3).
Being top students and since they have already decided to do medicine, they should be given that opportunity to do medicine.
This will also prevent brain drain, which often happens when they pursue their studies overseas if they can afford to do so.
All top scorers should be given places in higher learning, if possible, of their choice. Other faculties also need smart students.
Before deciding to do medicine, the students should have an interest in it. Many students who drop out in the middle of the course found out too late they cannot cope or find medicine not to their interest.
Many are forced to take up medicine by their parents although they personally do not wish to do so. Such students will only take up the places of more suitable candidates.
A strict screening test is therefore important to ascertain that the candidates are suitable to pursue medicine.
They must show full interest in this field and must have the personality and psychology to become good doctors.
Candidates applying for the medical profession should be devoted, caring and, most importantly, non-business like.
For those who take up medicine for financial gain, they must know that the medical profession is no longer a lucrative profession. I agree there are still some rich doctors but it is more an exception than the rule nowadays. Only those who want to do medicine for non-materialistic reasons should apply.
We should also encourage those who are willing to serve in rural areas and government service to do medicine. Malaysia is not really short of doctors. We are only short of doctors in the government sector and rural areas.
The problem is, therefore, to find ways to make doctors want to continue serving in the public sector and the rural areas.
DR LEE YAN SAN, Penang.

aquila

05-06-2004, 03:54 AM

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 01:21:04 +0800
> From: Oon Yeoh <oonyeoh@<hidden>>
> To: undisclosed-recipients:;
> Subject: Meritocracy: The truth must be told well
>
> My latest Heart of the Matter column in theSun Weekend edition
>
> =====================================================
> *
> Meritocracy: The truth must be told well
> *By Oon Yeoh*
> *
> "Is it really true that university applications are now purely
> merit-based?" a Malaysian friend of mine currently studying in the US
> asked me via e-mail. "I find that hard to believe!" he added.
>
> Another Malaysian friend, currently working in Singapore, e-mailed me
> asking: "If more Malays than non-Malays are qualifying for university
> under a truly meritocratic system, does that mean there's no need for
> the NEP anymore?"
>
> These are real life examples of the type of questions I've been getting
> from my overseas Malaysian friends lately. They are confused and can't
> believe what they are hearing about our new meritocratic system for
> university placement.
>
> And why are they confused? Because of statements by some government
> leaders who insist that this new system provides "equal opportunity for
> all races".
>
> If one were to take such statements at face value, one would have the
> impression that our university entrance system is based purely and truly
> on meritocracy rather than the partial or quasi-meritocracy that it
> really is.
>
> The reason why this new system, introduced just two years ago, is not a
> true meritocracy has been well argued by various quarters, not just by
> opposition politicians but even by some in government.
>
> How can you lump STPM and Matriculation students together under a
> similar grading system for university placement and call it a
> level-playing field? Everybody knows that STPM is a two-year course
> while Matriculation is a one-year course. The former is also widely
> considered to be more difficult than the latter.
>
> Government leaders can proclaim until they are blue in the face that
> this uniquely Malaysian version of meritocracy is the real deal, but
> it's not going to convince anyone.
>
> The flaws in this system are obvious even to those who have not been
> following this issue closely. Since 2002, every time university entrance
> season comes along, reports of top-scoring students not getting their
> preferred courses fill the headlines.
>
> Although we should all really try to avoid viewing this matter through
> racial lenses, it cannot be denied that having meritocracy in name but
> not in substance actually harms efforts to promote national unity. At
> best, some people from certain affected communities will be
> disappointed. At worst, they will suspect some hanky-panky is going on
> in the grading system.
>
> One solution is to implement real meritocracy, which can be achieved by
> either having all students take STPM or having all of them take
> Matriculation. Another possibility is to have a standardised university
> entrance exam like the Scholastic Aptitude Test, which is given to
> American students in their final year of high school.
>
> If none of these ideas are acceptable, there's another practical option
> which will at least assuage some of the cynicism among those who are
> unhappy with the system. And that is to simply have some truth in
> advertising when it comes to describing it.
>
> What people probably resent even more than the fact that some top
> students are having difficulty getting the courses they want, is the
> assertion that this is somehow a function of meritocracy.
>
> If some government leaders were to be more forthright and instead
> acknowledge that our education system is designed to help the Malays
> catch up with other races, people would be more accepting of it even if
> they are not exactly thrilled about it.
>
> After all, Malays special rights are guaranteed under the constitution,
> and I believe most reasonable people would accept a university entrance
> policy that incorporates social-political-economic considerations to
> ensure that no community is left behind.
>
> Government politicians can reasonably argue -- as Deputy Education
> Minister Abdul Aziz Samsuddin has done -- that the quota system of the
> past was not a mistake and that it was necessary to correct the
> disparity between the Malays and non-Malays.
>
> Similarly a case can be made that we are not quite ready for a full
> meritocracy, and what we have to make do with instead is a partial,
> tempered or quasi-version of it. Call it what you will, but just don't
> call it meritocracy and don't claim that it provides "equal opportunity
> for all races".
>
> Let's put it this way: If you cannot offer me orange juice because all
> you have is lemonade, don't try to sell it to me as orange juice. Tell
> me what you have is lemonade and explain why it's good for me. I might
> not be happy because what I really want to drink is orange juice, but at
> least I can appreciate your honesty.
>

chenchow

06-06-2004, 11:32 PM

Government is studying having a common entrance exam for medicine, besides their results. It would be called MSAT, not sure what is the full name.

It would test some technical knowledge, communication skills, analytical skills etc.

And applicants need to spend time in hospital doing observations. 3 to 4 students would be paired up with a doctor and some current medical students, visiting medical facilities, talking about experience as a doctor.

http://www.sinchew.com.my/content.phtml?sec=7&artid=200406060936

gohweihan

07-06-2004, 05:48 AM

Government is studying having a common entrance exam for medicine, besides their results. It would be called MSAT, not sure what is the full name.

It still does not address the root problem facing STPM students - matriculation.

kevinkhoo1986

07-06-2004, 01:34 PM

chenchow

07-06-2004, 01:45 PM

To Kevin's question, I believe LKW is allowed to apply for PTPTN. Call in to double check. To be turned to scholarship (0% pay back, you need to graduate with first class degree).

Go to http://www.ptptn.gov.my/ . Go to FAQ (Soalan Lazim) for a full list. This two concerns what you ask.

Soalan :
Apakah syarat-syarat pinjaman pendidikan Perbadanan Tabung Pendidikan Tinggi Nasional?

Jawapan :
PTPTN memberi pinjaman pendidikan kepada pelajar yang memenuhi syarat-syarat berikut:
Warganegara Malaysia.
Memiliki sekurang-kurangnya Sijil Pelajaran Malaysia atau yang setaraf dengannya yang diiktiraf oleh Kerajaan dengan sekurang-kurangnya tiga kredit.
Mengikuti program pengajian sepenuh masa pada peringkat ijazah pertama dan diploma di mana-mana Institusi Pendidikan Tinggi yang ditubuhkan di bawah:
(a) Akta Universiti dan Kolej Universiti 1971;

(b) Akta Universiti Teknologi MARA 1976;

(c) Akta Institusi Pendidikan Tinggi Swasta 1996; serta

(d) Politeknik yang ditubuhkan di bawah dan disenggarakan oleh Menteri di bawah Akta Pendidikan 1996; dan

(e) Mana-mana institusi pendidikan tinggi lain yang ditubuhkan atau disifatkan telah ditubuhkan di bawah Akta Pendidikan 1996 dan yang ditentukan oleh Menteri sebagai suatu institusi pendidikan tinggi bagi maksud Akta tersebut.

Soalan :
Adakah pinjaman PTPTN merupakan pinjaman boleh ubah?

Jawapan :
Pelajar-pelajar yang telah mendapat pinjaman PTPTN dan telah berjaya menamatkan pengajian dengan memperolehi ijazah kelas pertama boleh membuat permohonan pertukaran status pinjaman kepada biasiswa. Permohonan tersebut akan dibawa ke Mesyuarat Ahli Lembaga Pengarah PTPTN untuk kelulusan.

kevinkhoo1986

07-06-2004, 02:05 PM

Thankx chenchow for tha info.

chenchow

08-06-2004, 04:01 AM

This is an article in Malaysiakini on this issue worth pondering. Read till the end. It shows that anyone can be successful if you have the determination.

http://www.malaysiakini.com/letters/200406070037056.php

salyeo

11-06-2004, 11:23 PM

is there any possibilities that the government will make at least some changes regarding all those issues being brought up. if it is NO, then no point for us to complain so much about our education system i guess....

Daniel

12-06-2004, 02:37 PM

Hey just wondering does the MOE of singapore accept STPM to enter their local U? What is the requirement to pursue architecture in Singapore's U with STPM? Maths T and??

gohweihan

12-06-2004, 04:32 PM

The Singapore MOE accepts STPM as an entry qualification for degree courses in all Singaporean public universities.

However, only the National University of Singapore offers a degree course in Architecture. The prerequisite for their Architecture course is that applicants must have completed and obtained Year 12 or higher level pass in Chemistry or Mathematics or Physics. STPM is considered as Year 12.

Daniel

12-06-2004, 05:03 PM

how about the admission fees? how much does it cost to finish the whole course? Hopefully there is a scholarship available for the foreign students.

gohweihan

12-06-2004, 06:43 PM

The fees differs depending on whether you want to take the Government of Singapore's tuition grant. The Government of Singapore subsidises university education like Malaysia does. This tuition grant covers a large portion of the tuition fees in university. The full tuition fee for my course (in NTU), for example, costs $21350 (RM47,269.58, June 11 exchange rate) per year. However, after the tuition grant by the Government, the fee I'm supposed to pay is only $6220 (RM13,771.28) per year. Note that these fees are the same even in NUS.

While the tuition grant is not repayable, international students will be bonded under the terms of the tuition grant to work for a Singapore-registered company for three years upon completion of their courses so as to discharge some of their obligations to the Singapore Government for the high subsidy of their university education.

So if you sum it up, it would be around $85400 (RM189,078.33) if you decide not to take the tuition grant, or about $24880 (RM55,085.11) if you decide to take the tuition grant to complete a 4 year degree course.

I calculated the fees based on the course I'm taking which is classified as a laboratory based course. However, the fees for most other courses (including non-laboratory courses) are the same. Medical students (in NUS) would have to pay more, around $80800 per year without tuition grant, or $17820 per year with tuition grant.

And that is excluding monthly expenses, which will bring up the total cost of education in Singapore. However, having said that, there are loans available to cover the fees. Both NUS and NTU have a Tuition Fee Loan (TFL) Scheme whereby students can apply for a loan to cover up to 80% of their tuition fee (after deducting the tuition grant subsidy).

There are also scholarship options available for foreign students. These scholarships include the ASEAN Undergraduate Scholarship (NUS and NTU), NUS Scholarship, and Nanyang Scholarship (NTU). They cover the full tuition fee and in addition provide some allowance ($4300 per year in my case, the ASEAN UG). These scholarships are reviewed on a semester by semester basis based on academic performance. Besides, there are companies offering scholarships for students to study in Singapore (although I forgot the names).

chenchow

18-06-2004, 05:08 AM

This is a shocking finding I find from a news report on Nanyang. It is very troubling.

http://www.nanyang.com/index.php?ch=7&pg=10&ac=379269

There are students who actually cheat on their STPM results when appeal, i.e., for instance students with 3A and 2A-, which is 3.92, filled up appealing, claims that he/she gets 4.00, and demanded a medicine course. Similar cases were found for those with 3.75, who filled up their CGPA as 3.92. This is grossly unethical and I seriously believe that, as there are many such cases, and this CGPA should be able to be found from the STPM results, it is cheating that is taking place. It is a worrying trend.

Another findings were those who were offered other courses in IPTA, filled up the appeals claiming that they were not offered any course, despite getting good results. Why they must do so? Why not appeal based on their true cases.

I personally think that those who cheat should have their appleals struck off. It is too unethical already.

Hopefully none of ReCom members is involved in this.

gohweihan

19-06-2004, 12:22 AM

Firstly, sad to say I couldn't read Chinese, so the link to the news was useless to me. Nevertheless, if indeed these people had appealed based on what is not true, then it should be right that their place in university be forfeited, no matter what course they were offered in the first place.

Steppe

19-06-2004, 06:14 AM

Those students who cheated are jeopardising the MCA reputation. At this stage, I should say that MCA has done a very good job in fighting for all these students. These students have serious integrity problem, cannot be trusted any more unless they do not know how to calculate the CGPA.

By the way, how does this CGPA being calculated?

So far, MCA has not given any comment on the JPA appeals. Last year, MCA managed to get those 10 A1s students to get the JPA after appeal.

chenchow

19-06-2004, 06:55 AM

And I think by submitting the CGPA without knowing how to calculate it does not show the intelligence or due diligence of the students. Are they cheating or they do not know or they do not care? Either reason, it does not show highly of them.

Side track, CGPA calculation is A (4.00), A- (3.67), B+ (3.33), B(3.00), B- (2.67) etc

For those taking 4 courses, CGPA is just average of the 4 courses. Say A,A,A,A- is 3.92 . For those taking 5 courses, based on what I understand, it is on 4 best subjects. Hope those that know better to share.

Daniel

25-06-2004, 10:51 AM