Studying tips on stpm

[Scrmath]

Hi,i plan to take form6 but i heard f6 is hard.Do u all hav any tips to share with about muet and physics? And wad books are recommended for math t?

[starfire]

well, muet basically u need to adapt to da syllabus. do subscribe english newspaper at least once a week, and read da articles like in Letters for Editor. for da vocal part, you'd need to get a group of frens and practice sum useful topics like tourism (cliche) to warm up ur acquaintance wif points tat u might need drg ur test.

math t i heard my teacher saying da new textbook aint as good as da obsolete old one. i was blessed wif an experienced math tchr and a good tuition tchr as well.
I think for practice, u should look up Federal maths T, the thick version wif topical past year questions frm way back til 2004. (mayb they hav a newer edition? mine was til 04 n i bought it in 07).

cant help u on physics coz i was in bio stream.

[Scrmath]

Thx for sharing yr tips with me:).I wan to ask u is there got any reliable source apart from newspaper to read to improve developing idea and points for speaking part and writting part?like reader's digest etc. And how u read newspaper for pengajian am to improve it?

[markwongsk]

Basically Physics is about formulae... Apart from knowing how to derive, you must know how to apply. The trick in STPM is they normally mask the values of the unknowns either by not giving them at all and asking you to give answers in unknowns, or by letting you find them through other formulae... So a simple formula will need multiple substitutions before you get the final answer.

As usual, the bottom line for all Mathematics questions, practice makes perfect.

[Gabrielle90]

what about chemistry? anyone wants to share?

[markwongsk]

For physical chem it's mostly about calculation. Focus on Thermochemistry since almost every year there are questions on this chapter. Also, be sure you are familiar with the laws (not only the definition, its application too!!!)

Things like PV=nRT, E=hf etc etc should be second nature to you. Sometimes, you may not seem to understand the question. What I always do is list down the numerical data provided and try to recall an equation that can link them.

For example I give you acid dissocation constant and pH. ask you find Ka. From pH I can find [H] and hence I can find a related equation.

Of course, another part of physical chem is shape prediction. Be sure you understand this part because although it will not necessarily come out, the knowledge is important for further chapters.

Inorganic chem needs memorization. So depending on your reasoning power, it may be easy or hard. If you don't understand the explanations, you can still score but memorization will be difficult. So try to really really understand the reactions and whatnots. (I don't like inorganic chem because well, memorization :P Also, it's difficult to score full marks because you either lose a point here and there or you remembered the wrong equation. Physical chem is mostly calculation so easy to score. Organic is fun =D)

Organic chem.... The killer part? That's what my friends said. However, I totally love organic chem. For this, I suggest if you find laziness in yourself to read the Tan Yin Toon Organic Chemistry book, forgo that and just buy the longman past year questions and READ READ READ the organic part. The most common question that will come out in the essay part is asking you to predict W, X, Y, Z etc etc.

Ex. W reacts with 2,4-dinitrophenylhydrazine to produce orange precipitate. W decolourizes potassium manganate (VII) to form X. X has an isomer Y which gives a positive iodoform test. [This is a randomly thought question and does not have an answer]

It is clear that for Organic Chem you either learn it or don't because you have to study it as a whole package, possessing the ability to relate all the chemical compounds with one another.

That said, good luck in your Chemistry!

[lawteoh]

well, better take note of mark wong comment.. since he is getting the you-know-what thing tmr.. :)

[Scrmath]

For physical chem it's mostly about calculation. Focus on Thermochemistry since almost every year there are questions on this chapter. Also, be sure you are familiar with the laws (not only the definition, its application too!!!)

Things like PV=nRT, E=hf etc etc should be second nature to you. Sometimes, you may not seem to understand the question. What I always do is list down the numerical data provided and try to recall an equation that can link them.

For example I give you acid dissocation constant and pH. ask you find Ka. From pH I can find [H] and hence I can find a related equation.

Of course, another part of physical chem is shape prediction. Be sure you understand this part because although it will not necessarily come out, the knowledge is important for further chapters.

Inorganic chem needs memorization. So depending on your reasoning power, it may be easy or hard. If you don't understand the explanations, you can still score but memorization will be difficult. So try to really really understand the reactions and whatnots. (I don't like inorganic chem because well, memorization :P Also, it's difficult to score full marks because you either lose a point here and there or you remembered the wrong equation. Physical chem is mostly calculation so easy to score. Organic is fun =D)

Organic chem.... The killer part? That's what my friends said. However, I totally love organic chem. For this, I suggest if you find laziness in yourself to read the Tan Yin Toon Organic Chemistry book, forgo that and just buy the longman past year questions and READ READ READ the organic part. The most common question that will come out in the essay part is asking you to predict W, X, Y, Z etc etc.

Ex. W reacts with 2,4-dinitrophenylhydrazine to produce orange precipitate. W decolourizes potassium manganate (VII) to form X. X has an isomer Y which gives a positive iodoform test. [This is a randomly thought question and does not have an answer]

It is clear that for Organic Chem you either learn it or don't because you have to study it as a whole package, possessing the ability to relate all the chemical compounds with one another.

That said, good luck in your Chemistry!


How abt pengajian am? Is reading newspaper really helps?There are so many things in newspaper and how should i jot down the important points to score in exam? And is paper 1 is the harder version of spm sejarah?

[markwongsk]

How abt pengajian am? Is reading newspaper really helps?There are so many things in newspaper and how should i jot down the important points to score in exam? And is paper 1 is the harder version of spm sejarah?

paper 1 is way different than sejarah. It is generally divided into 3 types of questions:

(1) General questions and knowledge. Knowledge about the newest Dasar-dasar, etc will help. [I TOTALLY HATE THIS]

(2) Knowledge about everything Malaysia (goes deeper into sejarah, better start reading Oxford fajar bakti and longman PA1 books and - here's the dreader word - MEMORIZE!]

(3) Calculations [I LOVE THIS :laugh - REASON: NO MEMORIZATION!!!] you need to know how to calculate fooball scores, insurances, permutations, time schedules and anything or everything that has got to do with everyday numbers... boils down to logic in the end though it helps to get acquainted with words like "kadar purata", "kadar mendatar" etc...

PA2: This is tips I got from my teacher who's an examiner:

You can answer ALL questions, examiner will mark and choose the highest
You can answer a question TWICE, examiner will mark and choose the highest. That means that:

If you are unsure about an essay question, ie if you dono whether it's supposed to be 2 kesan and 2 langkah or 4 kesan, you can choose to write TWO ESSAYS on the same topic with different isi... if you got the time... it is not encourageable but hey, I did that :P

If you are unsure about the graph question you can draw 2 graphs on the same question. Same concept applies

Some things to note about how marks are allocated

Essay: you better get all isi correct. And you MUST know the question requirements. Sometimes the question masks the requirement for example..

Pencemaran air bukan sahaja disebabkan oleh pembuangan sampah-sarap ke dalam sumber air. Oleh itu, langkah-langkah yang wajar harus diambil untuk membendung masalah ini. Ulaskan pernyataan di atas

Everytime you see the word ulaskan, be careful because (normally) it has 2 requirements. As in the example, the answer requires 2 punca and 2 langkah. No marks are awarded for writing extra puncas. Markers will choose the highest paragraph.

Some essay questions are direct and simple straightforward. These can be seen through questions which goes something like this:

_____________________________ (this is the prompt). Nyatakan (punca/kesan/langkah)________________________

These essays are easy. Straightaway you have to think of 4 isi of the same criteria (normally... there ARE exceptions however, but this is a general guideline)

Another rule... The essays are divided into Art and Science, do not mix the isi for both types of essays... I quote one very painful experience of mine:

Penerokaan angkasa lepas banyak membawa faedah kepada negara. Namun, terdapat penentangan terhadap program penerokaan angkasa lepas dalam kalangan rakyat. Ulaskan pernyataan di atas.

First note: this is from Science question, so answer must be in science. Unfortunately, I answered nothing about science...

Second note: Ulaskan = be careful. The question wants faedah and keburukan...

Third note: Penerokaan angkasa lepas does NOT confine the topic to our astronaut going to outerspace. It involves satelite etc etc..

My answer: Kebaikan - Membina keyakinan dan semangat patriotik rakyat, Menjana ekonomi negara dengan pelaburan asing etc etc... (both nothing to do with science)

Keburukan - terhilang fokus pembangunan modal insan negara, dianggap pembaziran wang. (also nothing to do with Science)

My marks? 1/25 -.-

Answer: Kebaikan - memudahkan telekomunikasi, memainkan peranan dalam pertahanan negara, membolehkan kajicuaca dijalankan

Keburukan - pencemaran, penyalahgunaan teknologi sebagai senjata perisik etc etc...

Of course, there are exceptions where you CAN use sastera isi (getting confused? I was too :nod) This are grouped under Sains Sosial.

I think I will stop here, this is getting too long a thread. Hope you learned something... I will continue on graph (which has its hukum-hakam) next time...

Good luck and God bless in your STPM!!!

[starfire]

Thx for sharing yr tips with me:).I wan to ask u is there got any reliable source apart from newspaper to read to improve developing idea and points for speaking part and writting part?like reader's digest etc. And how u read newspaper for pengajian am to improve it?


well, NST does have a Muet section once a week i believe, and the Letters for Editor section, together with Opinions, allows you to c the high level of english among the contributors... their points are helpful sumtimes, depending on the topics... Star i'm not sure, but you can buy both for say, a week, and analyse. Star's wednesday edition has da stuff@<hidden> part which is quite interesting. I stayed wif NST coz it's thinner than The Star, easier to finish so as to not get too carried away. but it's up to you. reader's digest is quite helpful in the sense that it widens your horizons.... somehow lil points frm here n thre can help in ur muet. even ur vocab. and if u order frm school it's at student price.

PA... basically i guess u should check out Kyoto Protocol, ICC, ICJ etc. Topics or opinions that cum out on newspaper now doesnt always end up in our paper.... same goes for muet speaking/writing. my Muet tchr has newspaper cuttings from years back and those were really helpful, timeless topics, with facts and datas. so unless u hav been collecting them... dont put too much hope tat stuffs u read will be in STPM. although it does help to take note of current events like the recession now. be prepared to face sum paper 2 questions whre those taking Econs wil hav d upper hand.

i dont think paper 1 as harder version of sejarah, Scrmath. for one thing, our paper 1 only encompasses da kenegaraan part of sejarah. markwongsk alrd provided u study methods ;) jz read ur long man thoroughly and do lots of practice... get urself acquainted to types of questions they like to ask... u'll find tat some are sumwat repeated in one way or anthr. i had a tuition tchr who provided lots of objective paper 1 questions for us to complete every lesson, and school tchr does the same.
dont hate paper 1 just yet.

calculation part is fairly easy, but do make sure u know how to calc interests rate and exchage rates. like harga membeli n harga jualan for US dollars n Ringgit Msia.... u should know which value to use depending on da questions.

[pinknotebook]

Hello, regarding MUET:

actually if you speak English regularly (doesn't even have to be perfect) you will have no problem getting a band 4. It is something like English in SPM only they test multiple English skills such as listening, speaking, writing and grammar which would be graded in different sections.

Getting band 5 or 6 though is tough, and I think the best advice I can give you is to not underestimate the English language. Be very careful when you answer each and every question and think about your answer like your life depended on it :P

For MUET speaking, i agree with starfire that practicing with your friends will benefit you :D I think an advantage of taking form 6 is that you will be acquainted(maybe even close) with the people who will be in the same speaking group as you. So you will feel more comfortable at a certain level to debate and argue on an issue with your friend (being able to debate and discuss a certain topic will give you more points for maturity, involving other people and elaborating on details)

Good luck! :D
________
BUY GLASS BONGS (http://glassbongs.org/)

[markwongsk]

Speaking it is advisable that you get used to 2 minutes and 10 minutes. If you are working in a group and you know your group members, try to get around to practice. We used to have secret signs to remind each other of the time. And before we went into task be we already decided who we will eventually agree with (normally with signs also)

So +u+U!!!

[choogirl]

wah, looks like lots of ppl have been giving compact advices already =)

basically, find your style of studying. everyone studies differently =)

[markwongsk]

wah, looks like lots of ppl have been giving compact advices already =)

basically, find your style of studying. everyone studies differently =)

So anyway, I decided to continue my tips on PA2 yay :laugh :laugh :laugh (want to get my mind of MIT rejection :mad)

Graph:

You must understand the keyword in the question, here are some tips (use as guidelines not fixed answers)

Menunjukkan bilangan --> graf garis kompaun
Menunjukkan jumlah --> graf bar komponen
Menunjukkan komponen jumlah --> graf bar komponen
Menunjukkan perubahan --> graf garis memesong/garis kompaun
Menunjukkan jumlah, bilangan dan kadar --> graf gabungan
Menunjukkan komposisi --> graf bar komponen
Menunjukkan __ mengikut jantina --> graf bar piramid komponen/kompaun
Menunjukkan (something to do with umur) mengikut jantina --> graf bar piramid mudah

Always check the question for the graph it wants. For example, if it says lukis satu graf garis untuk menunjukkan jumlah ____ bagi tahun 2002-2005

YOU SHOULD DRAW A LINE GRAPH!!!! don't follow the tips provided blindly :nod

Also, notice that we favor line graph for graf kompaun and bar graph for graf komponen. The reason is simple, it is easier to see the change when it is a line graph. Also, when we use bar chart for graf komponen it is easier to keep track of the total.

A tip to use when counting the number of squares...

always make sure your julat is between 10-15 squares...
Let's say your total is 10000 and you want to find a suitable scale

Clearly, 10000/13 = 769.23 very near to 750
So you start from 0, then after 2 cm you write 1500, after another 2 you write 3000. Note that your final largest value must not exceed the maximum scale you have. Eg, in this case our largest value is 10000 and our largest scale value is 10500 therefore it is acceptable because our data thus not overshoot the x-axis

Now, let's say you have some set of datas...
5673, 8989, 7891, 9909

How to plot quickly?

In my STPM, I finished 2 graphs in 20 minutes... Speed is one thing, accuracy is another. So here is how I could managed the time limit...

5673/1500 (notice you don't divide by 750 although that's the scale you are using) = 3.782 near to 3.8 which means that you are going to count 3.8 from 0 (1.0 being the distance of two adjacent values on the marked x-axis, example from 0-1500 this is considered as 1.0 or 5 small squares)

Good luck =D

[sicknight]

I'm a upper6 student taking physic.Can anyone share their studying tips for physic?thanks in advance.

[choogirl]

To add for PA2, before exams, I went through all the other states papers (can be found online and downloaded) with their answer scripts. That helps a lot.

For physics, understanding concept is very important and doing lots of exercises. To stress again, UNDERSTANDING CONCEPT is absolutely crucial. One concept leads to another. Some questions combine a few concepts. Doing lots of exercises will help. For physics books, I use Halliday & Resnick (a university book) coz it has simple explanation and the Fajar Bakti book.

[markwongsk]

Oh and another thing, if you always teach people, you will normally notice you become better and better. Amazing right? =D

[sicknight]

Oh and another thing, if you always teach people, you will normally notice you become better and better. Amazing right? =D

because as you are teaching,you are actually also learning.

[Gabrielle90]

because as you are teaching,you are actually also learning.

yea, it helps in memorising. i mean in terms of bio. when u explain to someone, u can remember better. that's how i feel.

[marilynnnnn]

To add for PA2, before exams, I went through all the other states papers (can be found online and downloaded) with their answer scripts. That helps a lot.


I've always thought to do that but I never do. :-? So could you tell me where they can be found? What exactly does "states papers" mean cos I googled "states papers pengajian am" but to no avail. Do you mean trial papers?

Thanks in advance.

[Scrmath]

paper 1 is way different than sejarah. It is generally divided into 3 types of questions:

(1) General questions and knowledge. Knowledge about the newest Dasar-dasar, etc will help. [I TOTALLY HATE THIS]

(2) Knowledge about everything Malaysia (goes deeper into sejarah, better start reading Oxford fajar bakti and longman PA1 books and - here's the dreader word - MEMORIZE!]

(3) Calculations [I LOVE THIS :laugh - REASON: NO MEMORIZATION!!!] you need to know how to calculate fooball scores, insurances, permutations, time schedules and anything or everything that has got to do with everyday numbers... boils down to logic in the end though it helps to get acquainted with words like "kadar purata", "kadar mendatar" etc...

PA2: This is tips I got from my teacher who's an examiner:

You can answer ALL questions, examiner will mark and choose the highest
You can answer a question TWICE, examiner will mark and choose the highest. That means that:

If you are unsure about an essay question, ie if you dono whether it's supposed to be 2 kesan and 2 langkah or 4 kesan, you can choose to write TWO ESSAYS on the same topic with different isi... if you got the time... it is not encourageable but hey, I did that :P

If you are unsure about the graph question you can draw 2 graphs on the same question. Same concept applies

Some things to note about how marks are allocated

Essay: you better get all isi correct. And you MUST know the question requirements. Sometimes the question masks the requirement for example..

Pencemaran air bukan sahaja disebabkan oleh pembuangan sampah-sarap ke dalam sumber air. Oleh itu, langkah-langkah yang wajar harus diambil untuk membendung masalah ini. Ulaskan pernyataan di atas

Everytime you see the word ulaskan, be careful because (normally) it has 2 requirements. As in the example, the answer requires 2 punca and 2 langkah. No marks are awarded for writing extra puncas. Markers will choose the highest paragraph.

Some essay questions are direct and simple straightforward. These can be seen through questions which goes something like this:

_____________________________ (this is the prompt). Nyatakan (punca/kesan/langkah)________________________

These essays are easy. Straightaway you have to think of 4 isi of the same criteria (normally... there ARE exceptions however, but this is a general guideline)

Another rule... The essays are divided into Art and Science, do not mix the isi for both types of essays... I quote one very painful experience of mine:

Penerokaan angkasa lepas banyak membawa faedah kepada negara. Namun, terdapat penentangan terhadap program penerokaan angkasa lepas dalam kalangan rakyat. Ulaskan pernyataan di atas.

First note: this is from Science question, so answer must be in science. Unfortunately, I answered nothing about science...

Second note: Ulaskan = be careful. The question wants faedah and keburukan...

Third note: Penerokaan angkasa lepas does NOT confine the topic to our astronaut going to outerspace. It involves satelite etc etc..

My answer: Kebaikan - Membina keyakinan dan semangat patriotik rakyat, Menjana ekonomi negara dengan pelaburan asing etc etc... (both nothing to do with science)

Keburukan - terhilang fokus pembangunan modal insan negara, dianggap pembaziran wang. (also nothing to do with Science)

My marks? 1/25 -.-

Answer: Kebaikan - memudahkan telekomunikasi, memainkan peranan dalam pertahanan negara, membolehkan kajicuaca dijalankan

Keburukan - pencemaran, penyalahgunaan teknologi sebagai senjata perisik etc etc...

Of course, there are exceptions where you CAN use sastera isi (getting confused? I was too :nod) This are grouped under Sains Sosial.

I think I will stop here, this is getting too long a thread. Hope you learned something... I will continue on graph (which has its hukum-hakam) next time...

Good luck and God bless in your STPM!!!

I must render my thanks as u r willing to share..until today only i noe am got calculation!how about muet writting essay one?is it i need to learn many colourful phrases or have to emphasise on writing good isi or both?thx a lot..:)

[Scrmath]

To add for PA2, before exams, I went through all the other states papers (can be found online and downloaded) with their answer scripts. That helps a lot.

For physics, understanding concept is very important and doing lots of exercises. To stress again, UNDERSTANDING CONCEPT is absolutely crucial. One concept leads to another. Some questions combine a few concepts. Doing lots of exercises will help. For physics books, I use Halliday & Resnick (a university book) coz it has simple explanation and the Fajar Bakti book.

Do u still keep the paper in yr pc?Can u email me? my email address is Quantum9191@<hidden> in advance..coz i cant find any online..i dun noe why..

Oh and another thing, if you always teach people, you will normally notice you become better and better. Amazing right? =D

Haha,i subscribe to yr view..coz i teach my frens often add math in school as sometimes even the teacher don noe how to solve..i rarely do extra exercises but still able to get around 92:)

[shiqinlee]

I would like to take form6 for art streem.
I want to take math S,account,p.perniagaan and economic.
Anyone have tips on it?
B'cuz I'm from science streem,SPM.
Is it harder than what I've learn before like chem or addmath?

[choogirl]

Scrmath: I have tried sending you the papers but its too much and my com is laggy. Perhaps I can send you through MSN? My email is JHui[dot]neo [at] gmail [dot] com. Whoever wants the PA papers can add me as well. The papers are other state papers that include marking schemes. They were very useful for my stpm.

shiqinlee: I have a few friends who wanted to change to art stream after form five. Most likely, you will be put into science stream first. Only after a few weeks the school will put you in art stream. Some schools don't let the students do so. My friend transferred schools since he insisted on doing art stream. It's better if you check with your school whether they allow you to change stream. Maybe you can read up on books for art stream first to get a better idea. I think you wont have a problem catching up because SPM stuff is really basic.

[sim91]

I would like to take form6 for art streem.
I want to take math S,account,p.perniagaan and economic.
Anyone have tips on it?
B'cuz I'm from science streem,SPM.
Is it harder than what I've learn before like chem or addmath?

i also having this problem before i entering art stream f6:wink
B'cuz I'm from science stream,SPM
at the started,i'm dilemma n wanted to change 2 science stream:cry
B'cuz i'm hated almost of my subject r explain in bm :mad
after i learnt a bit of these subject,i found that the syllabus r more easier 2 learn compared wit chem,bio n phy :P

haha....so i still stay in art stream now

[sugarspice]

I heard that for PA, if your answers (isi) are not in the marking scheme then no marks will be given. Wow this is really risky...

How to 'tembak' answers/points that may be in the marking scheme?

[lawteoh]

I heard that for PA, if your answers (isi) are not in the marking scheme then no marks will be given. Wow this is really risky...

How to 'tembak' answers/points that may be in the marking scheme?

One of the points is normally R and D (kajian dan penyelidikan).. my teacher said last time if you write that, almost guaranteed correct. lol

[markwongsk]

I heard that for PA, if your answers (isi) are not in the marking scheme then no marks will be given. Wow this is really risky...

How to 'tembak' answers/points that may be in the marking scheme?

My former teacher was a marker (I'm STPM 2008) and she did exactly as you said... No points in her scheme = 0 marks... One method you can try is to write all four essays (I did that :P) so the marker will choose the highest scoring one... then again, not many people can write 4 essays in the time of two... so another method is to first dissect the question properly, understanding whether it wants 2 + 2, 4, or 1+1+2... (the numbers refer to the formula of the points, eg: two kesan + two langkah or one faktor, one kesan + 2 langkah etc)... this needs a bit of practice, I suggest you try to buy workbooks and look at the qusetions... then guess the answer the questions requires... don't think of the points first, just think of the combination it ones, then check the answer to see if you got it right. When you have started getting the hang of it, then only should you start guessing the points... make sure your points are relevant to the sastera/sains essay you are writing... eg dont write "memajukan ekonomi negara" for a "kebaikan program angkasa lepas" essay in section B because it has nothing to do with science

[sugarspice]

Thanks for briefing me but actually I have not much problem with the 'kehendak soalan'. My teacher, you know the Mr Goay who wrote the Longman PA book trains us alot. It's the isi part that I am weak at.

Let's take Bhg C for example.

Terangkan faktor-faktor yang mempengaruhi ketidakcekapan penyelenggaran.

My answer was:
-sifat majikan yang mementingkan diri/keuntungan>abaikan keselamatan pekerja
-kekurangan kesedaran tentang kepentingan penyelenggaraan.

Answers given in the marking scheme:
-kecuaian pekerja
-tidak ada ciri-ciri keselamatan
-kekurangan penyeliaan

[eve88]

Thanks for briefing me but actually I have not much problem with the 'kehendak soalan'. My teacher, you know the Mr Goay who wrote the Longman PA book trains us alot. It's the isi part that I am weak at.

Let's take Bhg C for example.

Terangkan faktor-faktor yang mempengaruhi ketidakcekapan penyelenggaran.

My answer was:
-sifat majikan yang mementingkan diri/keuntungan
-kekurangan kesedaran tentang kepentingan penyelenggaraan.

Answers given in the marking scheme:
-kecuaian pekerja
-tidak ada ciri-ciri keselamatan
-kekurangan penyeliaan

I've not done STPM, but for that particular qn - its quite specific ketidakcekapan penyelenggaran which translates to inefficient maintenance

so its more on inefficiency (rather than corruption)
Why is something inefficient? untrained staff, no systems in place, etc...
that sort of thing.

I feel that youre problem seems to be interpreting the qn - try to define the key words in your head and answer directly to it, maybe?

[lordfoong]

would like noe frm those who done their stpm b4, which is better, to spend time practising n keep alert wat u have learned in ur mind or tospend time on keepin ahead of wat teachers teachin?

im currently in lower 6 nw...any good strategy/plan?

[lawteoh]

would like noe frm those who done their stpm b4, which is better, to spend time practising n keep alert wat u have learned in ur mind or tospend time on keepin ahead of wat teachers teachin?

im currently in lower 6 nw...any good strategy/plan?

It depends. If your teacher is 'not so good', then try to understand it yourselves/study in advance or better, ask your 'smart' friends.. I am sure they would be willing to teach you. In my opinion, doing both would be better.. so, change the 'or' to 'and'.. :)

well, for now, I would suggest that u enjoy your lower 6 but please don't slack too much until you can't catch up with the pace.

[DonFrank]

I found that many students tend to jump onto the bandwagon that doing more exercises would make them understand certain topics, ie , the more they do, the better they understand. This is not always true because it is about quality, not quantity. If you truly understand a certain topic, no matter how difficult is the question, you would be able to solve it while those who don't really understand the concepts, they wouldn't be able to solve complicated questions because in stpm, candidates are usually tested for the concept. The underlying problem is that if you don't understand the concept, you would not be able to apply it into your problem-solving skill. What one can do when he doesn't understand is that he uses his rote memory which depends much on the exercises he did before. If he's encountered the similar-type questions before, then fine but what if the question is unprecedented? He would fail to do it.

So if you want to excel, you have to be a holistic learner. A holistic learner does not memorise a certain fact, instead he wants to know why it happens. That is to say, holistic learners want to know the intuition behind the happening of something. They always ask themselves why this happen and why that happen and they answer it themselves. To do so it requires your internal dialogue. Internal dialogue is the dialogue in your inner-self,ie , you talk to yourself. When we make decisions, when we solve questions, we talk to ourselves. In fact, we choose our path using our internal dialogue. So internal dialogue is something very important here. It is definitely different from memorising because internal dialogue is supported by reasons (ludicrous or logical) but rote memory is not supported by reasons. Our brain loves things that are supported by reasons. Without reasons, the memory would be short-term and you will forget in a year, or maybe a few days.

So if you want to be good in studying, you have to talk to yourselves about certain topics and then find the intuition behind it. The more logical the explanation, the better your brain can grasp and the better you can remember.

So be a holistic learner. Using rote memory will guarantee failure in STPM and higher level of education.

Good luck.

[vaduz]

I found that many students tend to jump onto the bandwagon that doing more exercises would make them understand certain topics, ie , the more they do, the better they understand. This is not always true because it is about quality, not quantity. If you truly understand a certain topic, no matter how difficult is the question, you would be able to solve it while those who don't really understand the concepts, they wouldn't be able to solve complicated questions because in stpm, candidates are usually tested for the concept. The underlying problem is that if you don't understand the concept, you would not be able to apply it into your problem-solving skill. What one can do when he doesn't understand is that he uses his rote memory which depends much on the exercises he did before. If he's encountered the similar-type questions before, then fine but what if the question is unprecedented? He would fail to do it.

So if you want to excel, you have to be a holistic learner. A holistic learner does not memorise a certain fact, instead he wants to know why it happens. That is to say, holistic learners want to know the intuition behind the happening of something. They always ask themselves why this happen and why that happen and they answer it themselves. To do so it requires your internal dialogue. Internal dialogue is the dialogue in your inner-self,ie , you talk to yourself. When we make decisions, when we solve questions, we talk to ourselves. In fact, we choose our path using our internal dialogue. So internal dialogue is something very important here. It is definitely different from memorising because internal dialogue is supported by reasons (ludicrous or logical) but rote memory is not supported by reasons. Our brain loves things that are supported by reasons. Without reasons, the memory would be short-term and you will forget in a year, or maybe a few days.

So if you want to be good in studying, you have to talk to yourselves about certain topics and then find the intuition behind it. The more logical the explanation, the better your brain can grasp and the better you can remember.

So be a holistic learner. Using rote memory will guarantee failure in STPM and higher level of education.

Good luck.




You are really helpful. Now i know why i couldnt score higher marks!!!
Thank YOu!!!

[mYaDiVa_9161]

hye.. im a newbie here..
wanna ask, is there any possible for those who is in the scsstrm class in fom6 wil posibly gt 4flat in their stpm?

if yes, how is their study method in gaining 4 such excellent result?

[lordfoong]

hye.. im a newbie here..
wanna ask, is there any possible for those who is in the scsstrm class in fom6 wil posibly gt 4flat in their stpm?

if yes, how is their study method in gaining 4 such excellent result?
would like to noe bout it too...hearing my seniors study averagely 8-12hrs daily sounds horrifying to me. do we actually hav to study 4 tat long to excel? sum smart ways/tips will b appreciated here..

btw, how did u guys hone ur MUET essay/PA karangan writing skills to a standard of Band 5 n above? other than reading newspapers, any books recommended?

excellent seniors' advice would b much appreciated here. =)

[DonFrank]

would like to noe bout it too...hearing my seniors study averagely 8-12hrs daily sounds horrifying to me. do we actually hav to study 4 tat long to excel? sum smart ways/tips will b appreciated here..

btw, how did u guys hone ur MUET essay/PA karangan writing skills to a standard of Band 5 n above? other than reading newspapers, any books recommended?

excellent seniors' advice would b much appreciated here. =)

If you use the right approach to study, then time isn't really an important factor for you to excel.

Everything there is to learnt has to be learnt the hard way.
Just understand that there is really no shortcut way to be successful. Excellent students must have spent a lot of time and effort to make them themselves today. Really no shortcut, all that is counted is hardwork.

If you want to be good at anything, the first thing you must have is 'heart'. With heart you can perform at ease because nobody is forcing even you yourself. If you don't have heart to study then it would be very difficult.

For MUET, my advice would be scoring high marks in writing and reading.
For reading, you need to know a lot of words, meaning your vocabulary must be good. Besides, your comprehension must be good , ie , you understand what the authors are going to tell you in that article. If you can, you will surely know how to answer the questions asked.

For writing, it is definitely easier than speaking. To be good in writing requires you to have a masterpiece of strategy. How to arrange your ideas, present them in the best manner, and how your essay is going to influence the readers are factors determining the excellence of your essay. Before you start writing, you should plan what to write first. Without planning it would look quite bad not because your content wouldn't be good but because it would be not so convincing and reader-friendly. We , as a writer, need to think about the reader. We must treat ourselves as reader too. We don't want to bore the readers, we don't want to force the reader to agree with us, we want to write in a friendly style, not an agreesive one. So the style of our writing is also very important. Think about it.

In every paragraphs, you should have a topic sentence. This topic sentence gives reader a gist of the whole paragraph. The rest are just additional points either to convince reader or inform them more. About paragraphing, think about the chinese opera show. When they close the curtain, they change paragraph. So think about it and you will know when to stop your writing and turn it into a new paragraph. Usually the best food is served first, and the worst food are served last, so apply this simple concept in your writing.

Just my 2cents.

A paragraph is usually consisted of
1 topic sentence (Statement)
Explanations ( Your reasons for the statement)
Examples (Something that supports your reason)

To be good in speaking, be it any language, the first thing you need to do is to practise. You can speak to yourself, your friends or anyone you like and when you are speaking in english, please think in english. If you are hokkien people, you surely think in hokkien when you want to speak in hokkien right? This concept really works for every language. So use it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Share some of my personal history here
I'm chinese educated and my family members all converse in hokkien and chinese. In my school life, I hardly spoke in english until I was form 4. In the first monthly test, I got 100 in my english paper and other students were amazed. But I thought that it was really nothing as compared to other english papers because the monthly test only tested me on two skills which are reading and writing. Because of that, I asked myself a few questions , ie , can I speak in english and understand what people are telling me when they talk in english?
Frankly, I gave myself a 0 score in both these skills. Since then, I started attending an english class out of school and found that I was truly incompetent and worse as compared to my colleagues of the same ages. Since then, I decided to master english language and do my best to improve my english language skills. At that time I took an english paper called FCE from Cambridge Esol. I failed it but not that badly. I didn't feel disappointed because I knew that I deserved the grade. And in the next year, I persevered and still attended CAE english class. I used my strategy as stated above and I excelled in the CAE (Certificate in Advanced English). I scored high marks in reading, speaking, and use in english but moderate marks in writing and listening. I received a certificate which I can use in furthering my education and job application. I was delighted because I knew that I could now speak well and understand what people are telling me. (CAE's passing rate in my class is approximately 29% . 39 people taking the test with only 11 people passing it.

I can only tell you that everything here is hardwork. There is no shortcut, really. Just believe yourself that you can do it and take them as challanges.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some quotes:

Everything we do, everything we are, rests on our personal power. If we have enough of it, one word is enough to change the course of our lives. If we don't, the most magnificent piece of wisdom can be revealed to us and that revelation won't make a damn bit of difference.

Do you know that at this very moment you are surrounded by eternity? And do you know you can use that eternity, if you so desire? Do you know that you can extend yourself forever in any direction and use it to take the totality of yourself forever in any direction? Do you know that one moment can be eternity? If you had enough personal power, my words alone would serve as a means to round up the totality of yourself and get to the crucial part of it out of the boundaries in which it is contained.



-From Tales of Power


Look at every path closely and deliberately. Try it as many times as you think necessary. Then ask yourself, and yourself alone, one question . . . Does this path have a heart? If it does, the path is good; if it doesn't it is of no use. Both paths lead nowhere; but one has a heart, the other doesn't. One makes for a joyful journey; as long as you follow it, you are one with it. The other will make you curse your life. One makes you strong; the other weakens you.




-From The Teachings of don Juan




The self-confidence of the warrior is not the self-confidence of the average man. The average man seeks certainty in the eyes of the onlooker and calls that self-confidence. The warrior seeks impeccability in his own eyes and calls that humbleness. The average man is hooked to his fellow men, while the warrior is hooked only to infinity.

-From Tales of Power





The basic difference between an ordinary
man and a warrior is that a warrior
takes everything as a challenge, while an
ordinary man takes everything as a
blessing or a curse.


-From Tales of Power


Whenever a warrior decides to do

something, he must go all the way, but
he must take responsibility for what he
does. No matter what he does, he must
know first why he is doing it, and then he
must proceed with his actions without
having doubts or remorse about them.

-From Journey to Ixtlan

The flaw with words is that they always make us feel

enlightened, but when we turn around to face the world they always
fail us and we end up facing the world as we always have, without
enlightenment. For this reason, a warrior seeks to act rather than
to talk, and to this effect, he gets a new description of the
world where talking is not that important, and
where new acts have new reflections.

-From Tales of Power




Just my 2cents

[lordfoong]

If you use the right approach to study, then time isn't really an important factor for you to excel.

Everything there is to learnt has to be learnt the hard way.
Just understand that there is really no shortcut way to be successful. Excellent students must have spent a lot of time and effort to make them themselves today. Really no shortcut, all that is counted is hardwork.

If you want to be good at anything, the first thing you must have is 'heart'. With heart you can perform at ease because nobody is forcing even you yourself. If you don't have heart to study then it would be very difficult.

For MUET, my advice would be scoring high marks in writing and reading.
For reading, you need to know a lot of words, meaning your vocabulary must be good. Besides, your comprehension must be good , ie , you understand what the authors are going to tell you in that article. If you can, you will surely know how to answer the questions asked.

For writing, it is definitely easier than speaking. To be good in writing requires you to have a masterpiece of strategy. How to arrange your ideas, present them in the best manner, and how your essay is going to influence the readers are factors determining the excellence of your essay. Before you start writing, you should plan what to write first. Without planning it would look quite bad not because your content wouldn't be good but because it would be not so convincing and reader-friendly. We , as a writer, need to think about the reader. We must treat ourselves as reader too. We don't want to bore the readers, we don't want to force the reader to agree with us, we want to write in a friendly style, not an agreesive one. So the style of our writing is also very important. Think about it.

In every paragraphs, you should have a topic sentence. This topic sentence gives reader a gist of the whole paragraph. The rest are just additional points either to convince reader or inform them more. About paragraphing, think about the chinese opera show. When they close the curtain, they change paragraph. So think about it and you will know when to stop your writing and turn it into a new paragraph. Usually the best food is served first, and the worst food are served last, so apply this simple concept in your writing.

Just my 2cents.

A paragraph is usually consisted of
1 topic sentence (Statement)
Explanations ( Your reasons for the statement)
Examples (Something that supports your reason)

To be good in speaking, be it any language, the first thing you need to do is to practise. You can speak to yourself, your friends or anyone you like and when you are speaking in english, please think in english. If you are hokkien people, you surely think in hokkien when you want to speak in hokkien right? This concept really works for every language. So use it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Share some of my personal history here
I'm chinese educated and my family members all converse in hokkien and chinese. In my school life, I hardly spoke in english until I was form 4. In the first monthly test, I got 100 in my english paper and other students were amazed. But I thought that it was really nothing as compared to other english papers because the monthly test only tested me on two skills which are reading and writing. Because of that, I asked myself a few questions , ie , can I speak in english and understand what people are telling me when they talk in english?
Frankly, I gave myself a 0 score in both these skills. Since then, I started attending an english class out of school and found that I was truly incompetent and worse as compared to my colleagues of the same ages. Since then, I decided to master english language and do my best to improve my english language skills. At that time I took an english paper called FCE from Cambridge Esol. I failed it but not that badly. I didn't feel disappointed because I knew that I deserved the grade. And in the next year, I persevered and still attended CAE english class. I used my strategy as stated above and I excelled in the CAE (Certificate in Advanced English). I scored high marks in reading, speaking, and use in english but moderate marks in writing and listening. I received a certificate which I can use in furthering my education and job application. I was delighted because I knew that I could now speak well and understand what people are telling me. (CAE's passing rate in my class is approximately 29% . 39 people taking the test with only 11 people passing it.

I can only tell you that everything here is hardwork. There is no shortcut, really. Just believe yourself that you can do it and take them as challanges.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some quotes:

Everything we do, everything we are, rests on our personal power. If we have enough of it, one word is enough to change the course of our lives. If we don't, the most magnificent piece of wisdom can be revealed to us and that revelation won't make a damn bit of difference.

Do you know that at this very moment you are surrounded by eternity? And do you know you can use that eternity, if you so desire? Do you know that you can extend yourself forever in any direction and use it to take the totality of yourself forever in any direction? Do you know that one moment can be eternity? If you had enough personal power, my words alone would serve as a means to round up the totality of yourself and get to the crucial part of it out of the boundaries in which it is contained.



-From Tales of Power


Look at every path closely and deliberately. Try it as many times as you think necessary. Then ask yourself, and yourself alone, one question . . . Does this path have a heart? If it does, the path is good; if it doesn't it is of no use. Both paths lead nowhere; but one has a heart, the other doesn't. One makes for a joyful journey; as long as you follow it, you are one with it. The other will make you curse your life. One makes you strong; the other weakens you.




-From The Teachings of don Juan




The self-confidence of the warrior is not the self-confidence of the average man. The average man seeks certainty in the eyes of the onlooker and calls that self-confidence. The warrior seeks impeccability in his own eyes and calls that humbleness. The average man is hooked to his fellow men, while the warrior is hooked only to infinity.

-From Tales of Power





The basic difference between an ordinary

man and a warrior is that a warrior

takes everything as a challenge, while an
ordinary man takes everything as a
blessing or a curse.



-From Tales of Power



Whenever a warrior decides to do


something, he must go all the way, but

he must take responsibility for what he
does. No matter what he does, he must
know first why he is doing it, and then he
must proceed with his actions without
having doubts or remorse about them.

-From Journey to Ixtlan

The flaw with words is that they always make us feel


enlightened, but when we turn around to face the world they always

fail us and we end up facing the world as we always have, without
enlightenment. For this reason, a warrior seeks to act rather than
to talk, and to this effect, he gets a new description of the
world where talking is not that important, and
where new acts have new reflections.

-From Tales of Power





Just my 2cents























thx for the advices n quotes, donfrank.
i would like to noe sum books which r recommended to hone my writing skills in MUET/PA n at the same time could broaden my knowledge.

[seahjiachen]

Studying tips or tuition recommendation for bio needed ( i can travel up to KL,PJ, Puchong. Kota-kemuning ) . thx :D

[markwongsk]

Studying tips or tuition recommendation for bio needed ( i can travel up to KL,PJ, Puchong. Kota-kemuning ) . thx :D

Please don't double post :amazed

As for studying tips for Bio, start early! Owh, and know how you hate to memorize all those names? Assign a friend to each name. Eg... glucose = grace, fructose = felix, dihydroxyacetone = whatever-you-want-to-call-him/her... Glycolysis? Once upon a time, there's a girl called Grace. One Saturday (6), she went to find her friend Felix and they ... basically it's the pathway of Glucose-> glucose-6-phosphate-->fructose-6-phosphate etc... See I still remember :laugh fructose-1,6-diphosphate --> dihydroxyacetone and...

Owh and try to score for the essays. Also, you can answer all the essay questions... you get the highest essays factored into your score. So practice recalling facts and writing quickly. If you cannot remember something, just skip and write the next thing first!

[seahjiachen]

haha. Cool method. I'll give it a try :P The biodiversity part is giving me a big headache! LOL. Looks like i've got to constantly do revision now.

Btw, mark, bio which book did you use? Longman? Fakti Bakti? Or I should combine all available resources available?

[markwongsk]

Our biodiversity in STPM 2008 was a joke -_- and I went to memorize all the crazy details :huh ...

I used Longman, but you have to take it with a grain of salt. There are some errors here and there. But the newer versions are not that bad

[subzero0c]

Bro..I think we should start a thread to encourage among ourselves.
When we study until tired, maybe we can give some words and good advice hit up the CLIMAX mood and keep continue study, a thread to relax and refresh?
Is it ok? Because Mental Health is also important for us to keep up!

[lordfoong]

hw did u guys practice for PA? my prob in PA is tat im slow...cnt finish in time. i nid SPEED! tips plz!

[Johnivan]

I posted this on Facebook actually, but since many people liked it, so I thought if I post it here, it would benefit more people. Here we go:

Hello everybody,

Many people asked me how to study and score well. I woulld say it is very subjective and it depends on different people.
Some people are naturally gifted: they don't need much effort and they could score well.
Some people required a lot of hard work, while some won't make it even if they study 24 hours a day.
But no matter what, let me give you some of my study tips on how to face STPM.

GENERALLY>>>

1. Ask questions. Don't just read the textbook and close it. I believe there must be something in there that you want to know about more, or maybe something that you don't understand. Your textbooks must never be clean. Ask your classmates, and if they can't help you to solve it, ask the teachers.

2. Talking about teachers, remember to make a good relationship with your teachers. Don't be a book worm who just studies in school and go back home. Get to know your teachers well (especially the older ones) and try to pay attention in their classes. Classes like PA lecture may be boring, but you will never know how much you missed from your tuition teacher if you don't listen to your own school teacher's lecture...

3. Balance your cocurriculum and your studies. You must come to know how important koko marks are, and at the same time, balancing your studies as well. Try to grab posts, do projects, or join competitions that will help you in that. MPPPU members (students' council) especially, don't be too engrossed with the school matters... make sure that the job is done properly, and at the same time, plan a good time table to study well.

4. Talking about time tables, mine may differ from yours. I do it by project: that means, I set a target, then I'm supposed to finish it in the time I set. Example:

Let's say, I plan to study Chemistry chapters 1 to 3 for today (just normal revision).
So I must make sure that by the end of the day, I'll finish reading the 3 chapters.
If I finish early, either I'll proceed to the next chapter, or I'll reward myself with some computer games etc...
If I can't finish on time, I'll drink some coffee, and sleep a little later at night.

The reason I do this is because my time is never fixed: I may be called to go out in the afternoon, help parents in something, go out to meet family friends etc when I'm supposed to be doing my studies. This method is better for those who don't have a fixed daily schedule.

5. For those who normally get better grades than others: Always be willing to help others when they need your help(provided that you understand what you studied...). Because while helping your friend, you are actually revising.

6. Tired in school? That is normal, by the way... I have a friend who could actually control his mind from falling asleep. Pn Presanna said it's actually all about the mind. You got to tell yourself what to do. Even if you actually fell asleep in school, make sure you put some effort to regain the knowledge that you had loss during the lessons.

7. Especially Kluang students: Go and meet and find out more about other students from other states, other towns and cities. You will be amazed by how much they know and how hard working and resourceful they are. ReCom.org is a good place to try. Join educational forums, and feed yourself with more information. FYI, those top scorers actually read beyond their syllabus, that's why they are so good. Exchange your trial papers, and have the initiative to move.

8. Always bear in mind that STPM is an open examination: Don't expect that all exam questions will follow the syllabus exactly. The more you know, the better you are. Be prepared to know more beyond the syllabus itself.

PENGAJIAN AM>>>
I would say that Mr Morgan's (or some other very famous PA tuition teachers...) tuition is still vital (I didn't go, that's why I got a B- for paper 2...). But remember to do all the STPM trial papers from all states, remember the essay topics, and schemes. Do a lot of graph practices, Don't just be contented with Mr Morgan's Kenegaraan notes. Try Longman's or others, go to the internet to check for a better view of all the dasar dalam negara.

MATHEMATICS>>>
Many people think that the only way to improve your mathematics is by doing more exercises. I'm here to prove you WRONG. You can ask any top scorer whether they did many maths questions compared to the rest. Frankly, I never did any past year papers for Maths and Add Maths during PMR and SPM, and I only did all the exercises that the school teachers told me to do in school, nothing other than that. The main problem is actually understand. If you understand thoroughly how to go about, how to go from A to Z and from Z to A, then you are done. No matter how they change and twist the question, you are able to analyse and solve it easily. However, I have to say to those who are weaker in Maths, you have to try to UNDERSTAND the many questions you do. Let's say you tried very hard but still couldn't understand, then only you really had to depend on exercises. I'm not saying that exercises are not important, but it cannot go without understanding them. My only problem in Maths is actually carelessness... My friend suggested that everytime you do an exam question, recheck your answers BEFORE you proceed to the next questions.

PHYSICS>>>
Make a little booklet of all the definitions, and another for all the physics formulas. If possible, do one more for the derivation of formulas (only a few of them, all listed in the syllabus). Try to ask till you understand. Don't just keep quiet and pretend that you know it. However, there will be times that you REALLY REALLY don't understand what's happening. It's OK, leave that particular section aside, then proceed to the next section. Maybe after studying other chapters, you may have a clearer picture of what the hard chapter was all about. Chapters like Wave and motion, physical optics may be very abstract and hard to understand. Just try your best, and if the worst comes, just choose another question. I honestly tell you that not everyone can score well for physics... However, those who score well in Physics will surely score well in Maths.

CHEMISTRY>>>
Same as Physics, create a booklet of definitions. Don't solely depend on Ms Foo or Pn Hamidah's notes, by the way... Do buy the text books (Longman especially...) and study them. Their notes are not complete enough for you to face STPM. Make notes for your organic reactions: from Alkanes to polymers, not only those notes given by teachers. I gave mine to someone I can't remember, if you are reading this, do photocopy it and pass it around to everybody. Also, put some effort in inorganic, because many people can't score well this part due to lack of study and understanding on this part. Chemistry requires more memmorizing.

MUET>>>
Read Reader's Digest (not only the Jokes, and Life's Like That...). Try to understand the different articles, and gain information from it. Give yourself a vocabulary book, and write down all beautiful words or phrases that you can use in your essays. Do listening exercises on your own at home, do lots of reading, and speak more. listen to how others speak, and try to imitate. Be confident, because they can sense when you are afraid. Greet all the speaking examiners BY NAME, because you will impress them.

I've never studied Biology, and there's no point putting study tips on Further Maths here anyway... I hope that you all will find this note useful, even though it's long and boring...

I wish you all the best for your STPM. Remember: where you will go after this depends on how your STPM goes. If you are an elite student, 4As and 3A1B+ makes a difference in getting scholarships. If you are an average student, A 3.00, 2.75 and 2.00 makes a difference on whether you will be choosing your course, or the course choosing you. Do enjoy and relax in your Form 6 life, but study hard too.

Share this with everyone you know. I can't tag everyone to read this anyway...

Regards,
Johnivan

[han72890]

Form 6 life is a real spiritual journey.Try to find out what you actually want to be and what makes a difference between you and others.Listen to your own voice from the heart and do whatever it takes to achieve your goal.

[fastreaderX]

hello all..may i know that why form 6 dont have finance or banking this subject ? I not really like accounting.

[nittu]

hello all..may i know that why form 6 dont have finance or banking this subject ? I not really like accounting.
Err.. may i know what do you mean by 'dont have finance or banking this subject'? Well if u dont like account then why not choose EA or PP? Im not an arts student but thats what my friends did last time.. they choose those subjects instead of accounts..:)

[Mini]

I would like to know how to excel in math? Any senior can share the study tips in Math?

[sugan]

I would like to know how to excel in math? Any senior can share the study tips in Math?

read johnivan post la
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