Malaysian Chinese who read chinese dialects....

[calibre2001]

Hello again people.

Since this forum encourages curious on-lookers of chinese to pose all their queries, I'm posting mine here.

For many years I've been observing the distribution of chinese languages/dialects spoken around in Malaysia. As we all know, KL is a hub for cantonese-speaking people. Yet, the chinese schools within it teaches students to read/write chinese in Mandarin. I found these observations interesting:

Case 1
A chinese bus driver in his 50s reads chinese newspapers. Yet, he knows not of a single word in Mandarin. Its cantonese all the way for him. Its is probable that during his schooling years, chinese was taught in Cantonese/dialect rather than Mandarin. Explaination?

Case 2
I was buying a HK movie in Sungei Wang Plaza (notoriously known as the Mecca of HK-centric people) at one of the DVD shops. Upon passing the DVD to the owner ( a man probaly in his late 20s or 30s), he read out aloud the title of the movie to his colleague ( to collect the DVD) in Cantonese. That struck me because people of his generation ( assuming my estimation of his age is correct) would have never learnt reading Chinese in dialect but in Mandarin. Is that strange?

Case 3
My former classmate(around 24 years old), educated in a chinese all-girl school in KL, speaks pretty poor Mandarin & English yet speaks perfect Cantonese. She reads/writes Chinese well too and I reckon Chinese was taught in Mandarin.

That's a small sample of the numerous strange observations I've made over the years. I hope someone would kindly enlighten me.

[chenchow]

I guess the main reason would be the influence of cantonese drama series on TV, as most teenagers are keen-followers of it. Environment plays a big part too. For instance, in Klang Valley, people speak cantonese and hence, their friends and younger generations follow on.

In fact, if you look at Penang state for instance, although Hokkien/Teochew is spoken widely by the elder generation, the younger generation speaks Mandarin well and typically Mandarin is the language that is spoken among friends, especially among those students from vernacular schools.

With these 2 examples, I would look at it as the difference of cantonese drama series.

Personally, I would think that Mandarin should be emphasized and we should have at least an equal amount of television program in Mandarin. I am not a proponent of banning dialects, like what Singapore is doing, but I think we should encourage Mandarin-speaking, while hoping that the younger generation learn their dialects too.

I guess a good balance could be that students speak Mandarin at school with friends, whereas dialects are used at home or with family friends.

[calibre2001]

Actually, I realized that I deviated from what I intended to point out. Where did these people (cases1-3) learn to read chinese in dialects???

I wholeheartedly agree with you that equipping the young with Mandarin is important since it'll open a whole new dimension to them whilst providing them with a competitive edge. Dialects are important since they are historically the true 'language' of the chinese people here. Besides, it is a well known fact that knowing more languages help.

Striking a balance between languages is difficult as it already is. Becoming proficient in 2 languages (BM and English) is already a burden to most students. Imagine with a 3rd and several dialects. But having said that, the benefits that can be reaped will greatly outnumber the costs.

I think airing Cantonese serial dramas is good. More people will have the opportunity to learn it.

[launa]

look like this thread is not popular among the recomer.

for me, i don't think that learning many language when you are still studying at primary school don't burden me very much. in fact, i enjoy it. i think the reason behind it is i like my mother tougue very much! speak and write bm+eng+chinese is not a problem for me.

the one thing i regret is i can't talk well in foochow dialect! nobody talk to me in foochow dialect! my parents only speak mandarin to me. i learn my foochow from my grandparents. you know that older generation tend to speak in their dialect.

one thing i don't like is learning new languege when you are out of school already. i will struggle to cope with it. it happens to me now. i fell very sad. can anyone suggest how to overcome it?

[jo_n]

i personally don't think that learning multiple language is a problem too. my family speak only mandarine although my father is teochew, n my mom is a hokken. then when i went to primary school, i started to learn cantonese n BM. i learnt lots of cantonese from my dad's conversation w/ his friends in his office (i stayed there alot when i was small!!!) n also from TV series! (even foul language too!! :oops: ) then my mom sent us all to tuition for english since standard 1. not that she wanted us to expert in eng, but she just wanted somebody to take care of us in the day time n we dun waste time playing at home. she wasn't really nervous abt our study back then. but talking to the eng teacher (who only converse in eng!!!) did helped me alot! i started reading eng storybooks under her influence. then mom sent us to mandarine classes as well since primary 1. then we learnt how to write as well! so, in short, i think although my primary school time was packed w/ classes n tuitions, i'm grateful that i can learn all of them w/out much suffer. believe me, as long as we practice talking more, we can learn more, not very difficult thing to do.

[calibre2001]

Obviously, the issue isnt about multiple languages but rather on how cases #1,2,3 can appear in a country where apparently languages and cultures melt into a common identity.

[yekban81]

Case 2 is explainable. In my hometown, we use cantonese to communicate with each other. Chinese who are Malay-educated during their primary education including me have strong tendency to read chinese character in cantonese. Aside from the influence of entertainment media, I can just say that it happens naturally. About case 1, probably the driver is also in the same category.

[calibre2001]

So how did they learn to formally read chinese characters in Cantonese? Indeed, its possible to watch tonnes of Cantonese shows and possibly pick up a lot but not without some formal training. The reason for the excellent standard of Cantonese in HK is not solely because its spoken there endlessly but rather the people there are taught Chinese in Cantonese ( slowly transiting to Mandarin) too.

Anyway, here's something I found interesing.

http://www.chinese-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=2341

[balderdash]

I attended Chinese SRJK and SMJK but English was my first language. However my parents spoke Cantonese to me as I was growing up and I also listened to Cantonese songs and watched HK drama serials. And that's probably why I can read cantonese.

My boyfriend who was educated in an international school, has no formal Chinese lessons except for Chinese tuition up to supposedly P6 level, reads Cantonese as well. he claims it's cos of the Canto songs. :)

[jiinjoo]

Music goes a very long way in literacy - many literacy programmes in the world spread by adding subtitles in popular MTVs.

I wonder how much influence one gets coming from a cantonese speaking family. I came from a Hokkien speaking family - asking me to read in hokkien? Forget it! :) All I remember reading was the same sentence I hear from the hokkien news from the radio:

Da to se li ma ha di yi seng gong... (Dato Seri Dr. Mahathir says...)

[iQing]

omg, is there really written chinese dialects?

跑 in mandarin is 跑 in cantonese is 跑 in hokkien is 跑 in hainan etc.

don't you realise that?

[nxwen]

Have you read Hong Kong magazine before? Some of the words can only be read in cantonese and don't even exist in mandarin. I had seen a movie (maybe more than one? can't remember) which carry this kind of characters as subtitles as well. Makes it really hard to read as you need to read them in cantonese or else they don't make sense.

[kintaro_kun]

i'm one of the folks who can speak, write and read mandarin AND cantonese.and i'm only 19!

its true that there are characters which only cantonese has but mandarin doesnt, i guess the hong kongers studied those before 1997.for a malaysian to know how to write and read canto, i had to read HK mags and watch canto shows (with cantonese subtitles). folks in guang zhou are fluent in mandarin and canto. most chinese in klang valley and ipoh are too.

i came from a chinese kinder, primary and secondary school,i know that usage of dialects in school was widely frown upon(we were fined $1 for it),but many ppl just couldnt be bothered with the fine. i spoke canto in school coz ppl think that dialect speakers in school are much cooler 8) .we just dont speak in front of the teachers and prefects, thats all. although the intellectuals in school tend to stick with mandarin.

i quote iQing:
跑 in mandarin is 跑 in cantonese is 跑 in hokkien is 跑 in hainan etc.

in mandarin, 跑 is pronounced as pao, and coincidentially, also in cantonese.although in both canto and mandarin 跑 is run, canto speakers dont normally use 跑, we use 走(zhao in canto) as run and 行( hang in canto) as walk. some phrases like 行街(hang kai in canto, meaning 'bersiar-siar') and 走佬 (zhao lou in canto, meaning escape, melarikan diri) show you the difference between 行 and 走. no use searching these phrases in a mandarin dict as both are canto phrases.

frankly speaking, i really enjoy watching HK shows in canto. there was this time when the media said its gonna dub all canto shows into mandarin, i was like, OMG!
if you dont know what i mean, i think AEC (astro channel 19) is airing canto shows dubbed in hokkien, watch them, and youl'll see my agony.

i agree with jo_n, all it takes is a little practice and you can be a pro in mandarin and at least a dialect in no time. i've a got a friend who came from JB(predominantly hokkien) who spoke no canto, came to taylors in subang, mixed with canto speakers and watched tonnes of HK dramas, eventually became a canto speaker herself in a year's time!

i'm currently learning hakka from my mum(who speaks both canto and hakka, but a hakka herself) and hokkien from my pap(who speaks hokkien, canto and teochew and a canto himself, which makes me a canto!)

i'm open for any questions.....

[calibre2001]

its true that there are characters which only cantonese has but mandarin doesnt, i guess the hong kongers studied those before 1997.for a malaysian to know how to write and read canto, i had to read HK mags and watch canto shows (with cantonese subtitles). folks in guang zhou are fluent in mandarin and canto. most chinese in klang valley and ipoh are too.



Fluent in reading chinese in canto? Wow, feels like I discovered a secret underground community that I was unaware of all this time. I'm curious what's the proportion of folks in the chinese speaking (dialects ,mandarin) community who can read chinese in dialects? How many younger generation folks can anyway? You all had to self-train yourselves from dialect magazines and books?

[okaywhy]

There are only a few difference between chinese words and canotnese one.

I'll cite a few examples, words on the left hand side are chinese whereas the words on the right hand side are cantonese.

是 [shi (4)] - 係 [hai (3)]

在 [zai (4)] - 喺 [hai (2)]

的 [de] - 嘅 [ge]

他 [ta (1)] - 佢 [koi (2)]

不 [bu (4)] - 唔 [um (3)]

了 [le] - 咗 [zho (2)]

还 [hai (2)] - 仲 [zong (3)]

没有 [mei (2) you(3)] - 冇 [mou (2)]

[Thirdshifter]

[off topic] It's Chinese Malaysian by the way. [/off-topic]

I can read but i don;t understand.. just like reading Arabic.

[calibre2001]

There are only a few difference between chinese words and canotnese one.

I'll cite a few examples, words on the left hand side are chinese whereas the words on the right hand side are cantonese.

是 [shi (4)] - 係 [hai (3)]

在 [zai (4)] - 喺 [hai (2)]

的 [de] - 嘅 [ge]

他 [ta (1)] - 佢 [koi (2)]

不 [bu (4)] - 唔 [um (3)]

了 [le] - 咗 [zho (2)]

还 [hai (2)] - 仲 [zong (3)]

没有 [mei (2) you(3)] - 冇 [mou (2)]

Yes but when writing in baihua, which is largely based on Beijing speech, the so-called 'mandarin' characters can be read in cantonese e.g. 没有 is 'mood yao' and 不 is 'putt' although no one speaks that way in real life except in songs and news. And exam papers!

[okaywhy]

You all had to self-train yourselves from dialect magazines and books?
I learn them from HK movies' subtitles.... hehe :wink:

[forlornpain]

Well, i came from a religious Hokkien family. I live in singapore, so its common that i can speak both mandarin and english. But, if you ask me to talk in Hokkien, Its a No Way. My parents doesnt teach us hokkien, likewise, we have no interest in it. But now in this world, if we doesnt speak any hokkien or cantonese or teochew, we still can live in this world right? LOL. :o

[penny_aries]

Actually it's not tat hard to learn cantonese if you know chinese. as stated b4, most of the wordings are the same except few. And, the pronunciations are roughly the same too.

Learning multiple language is not that hard if you learn since small. For my case, I speak cantonese since small. I speak malay when i was about 3 (speaking with the Indonesian maid =)). I started to learn mandarin only when i was in kindergarten. Same goes to english. In addition to that, I know some hokkien as well coz my mum and dad converse in hokkien. Since hokkien and teow chew are almost the same in a lot of ways. I can understand teow chew, even though I dont noe how to speak teow chew properly. Thus, basically, i can understand more than 5 language if each dialect count as one.

So, learning multiple chinese dialects is not tat hard especially if you noe mandarin. Most the dialects have some similarities to mandarin.

Well, that's my opinion.

[bp_ffei]

All my relatives speak canto and hakka but my parents never spoke dialects to me and my siblings. I've only been picking up cantonese in recent years (since I came to Singapore! weird eh?). Reason being I'm from Johor and there isn't a canto environment there and people watch Singapore drama series (which are all in Mandarin). When I came to Singapore I made friends from KL etc. and they helped me a lot in pronunciation etc., and with the help of canto-pop and K-box (Red-box equivalent in Singapore) I'm able to read a bit of canto too. Knowing mandarin has helped me because sometimes there are "functions" that link the mandarin and canto pronunciation of words. There are lots of people who can read newspapers in cantonese IMO.

[chiachean]

Well, i came from a religious Hokkien family. I live in singapore, so its common that i can speak both mandarin and english. But, if you ask me to talk in Hokkien, Its a No Way. My parents doesnt teach us hokkien, likewise, we have no interest in it. But now in this world, if we doesnt speak any hokkien or cantonese or teochew, we still can live in this world right? LOL. :o

Of course you can survive. Knowing mandarin is actually more than enough.
For me, I know how to speak Mandarin and English.. and a little bit Hokkien and Cantonese.. I can understand what others are talking using the above dialects, but I can't speak well..

:)

[Caprio]

As a Malaysian, I am proud to say than I can speak 5 languages or to be more accurate 3 languages-Mandarin, English and Malay, and 2 Chinese dialects-Cantonese and Hokkien.

[Gabrielle90]

me too... i can speak Mandarin, English, Malay, Hainan and Cantonese... i can understand a little bit Hakka but dont know how to speak at all... haha...

[okaywhy]

me too... i can speak Mandarin, English, Malay, Hainan and Cantonese... i can understand a little bit Hakka but dont know how to speak at all... haha...
lu bat gung hai nam wue? wa bat gung dit gia...

[ZhannaC]

lu bat gung hai nam wue? wa bat gung dit gia...

wa bat wa bat! :laugh

[seiken]

wa bat wa bat! :laugh

Ni kong ma kai?