Medicine - Is it the pathway for EVERY bright student?

[Athersin]

One thing is for sure, I don't wish to see students taking up medicine just because their SPM, STPM, or whatever pre-U results were good. This might sound like yet another old-lady nag but it's true... and I am certain that others here who are taking medicine will agree with me. You don't study medicine just because you have good results... What we know about medicine in unis is totally different from what we are going to encounter in the real world.

The recent implementation of getting aspiring students to visit hospitals before they decide on taking medicine is a good move IMO. At least they get to know what medicine is actually about, before they sink their feet into the pile of mud that they won't be able to pull out of. There has been cases where students actually changed their mind about doing medicine after the visits and intros, which is good in a way that they won't make the wrong decision (and take up places in unis that they don't want).

What do u guys think about the current scenario where tonnes of bright studenrs esp the 4flat one take up medicine , pharm or dentistry,all these courses that are deemed to be very competitive and critical.
Does that mean those who take up other applied science courses like biotech,dietician ,biochem,pure sceinces, botanist, zoology hv no future?


Moderator Note: Some slight grammatical correction to the title. ~youngyew~

[SapphireDragon]

Ya, I agree with you. Not everyone is mentally and physically prepared to take medic. I have frens who when I ask them why they take medic and they sad "Well, I dunno what to chose so medic comes into mind because everyone is taking it". Soe people have not done their research into other careers and somehow they are deluded by a society that has the misconception that bright student=medic.

[nicodemus]

Well, I think this phenomena is slightly affected by how the society thinks. The way of thinking that 'Oh, you're a bright student. So smart, you should go study medicine...' has already become part of our life; no matter where you go...

It's like this thing has been ingrained into their thoughts and whoever top scorer in their family or neighbours, the society excpects them to be future doctors, dentists and pharmacists.

But, we could not blame them for thinking that way. To them, doctors, dentists and pharmacists will provide a better future than the other science courses. Science courses has been thought of as a 'waste basket' in the science stream. (sorry for the insult, but I was just trying to make a point) The society's perception is that only those that could not make to medicine, dentistry, pharmacy, engineering, etc... are the ones being thrown into various science streams.

Personally, I think science stream is one very interesting field to study in. I regretted for not being there...

It's rude to say that they have no future, BUT the future's not so bright in Malaysia. Maybe with some tough luck, they can succeed here but still science courses are still not the norm in Malaysia yet...

[Miracle_seed]

But, we could not blame them for thinking that way. To them, doctors, dentists and pharmacists will provide a better future than the other science courses. Science courses has been thought of as a 'waste basket' in the science stream. (sorry for the insult, but I was just trying to make a point) The society's perception is that only those that could not make to medicine, dentistry, pharmacy, engineering, etc... are the ones being thrown into various science streams.

Personally, I think science stream is one very interesting field to study in. I regretted for not being there...

It's rude to say that they have no future, BUT the future's not so bright in Malaysia. Maybe with some tough luck, they can succeed here but still science courses are still not the norm in Malaysia yet...
This is indeed, very true. Perhaps the underdevelopment of research field or industry of our country, demand for these science courses graduate is indeed much smaller than the number of graduates. These graduates might end up getting a job not at all related to their courses, and they are at the highest risk of unemployment when the economic crisis comes. The other critical courses on the other hand, provide a stable and quite secured job, which I believe is one of the reasons they are much sought after.

[jiacheng91]

i have to say sadly, we the malaysian students have two common misconception
the first one being address by u all
the second one being all professionals must server in malaysia because we love malaysia
in a country that discriminate and disagree with meritocracy, i think its better if we work elsewhere. we can contribute to the country with various way.
pls dont get me wrong, i love my country i juz dun love the way it is governed

[Glassylicious]

It seems that Medicine has become the "default" ambition for anyone getting straight A's or close to it.

In Form Five, one of my teachers said "Oh, this is the best class of the year, so I'll assume that all of you want to be doctors".

When I told her that I wanted to be a lawyer she was shocked.

In Taylor's, I took Science subjects for my A levels, and was enrolled into a "pre-meds" class due to the subjects I took [Bio, Chem, Math, Psychology] and everyone wanted to be a doctor as well. And when I said I wanted to do Law they were shocked, asked me what I was doing in a Science class. My Math lecturer said I didn't strike him as the "lawyer-type".

I told one of my uncles that I was going to university to do Law. He pursed his lips and looked elsewhere. Apparently there are "too many lawyers around" and I "should have done Medicine instead". Um...hi, the irony? Within the next 5 years we're going to have way too many doctors around, if this trend goes on. And I can just as easily jump into the corporate world with a Law degree anyway, and the corporate world has always welcomed anyone who has potential. There's always room for one more CEO, one more entrepreneur, one more businessman, one more lawyer as a defense counsel for corporate lawsuits, you get the drift.

But yeah anyway, this demonstrates my point exactly about how Medicine is suddenly the "default". And it doesn't stop there. I know of a few people who regard doing Medicine as standing on the ultimate pedestal of tertiary education, to the extent that they believe that Pharmacy and Biochemistry students are nothing but Medic rejects. =/ Yeah, there are actually people who believe that doing Medic is superior to any other course.

I told my Medic friend that I was once tempted to go down the doctor road, like everyone else, but decided against it due to several reasons. She told me she was glad I made the decision, because working as a doctor in Malaysia, as everyone already knows, is tough and at the end of the day your passion will be the only thing driving you to go on, and I just don't have enough of that to survive. I'm looking to earn some good moolah, and I'd have a way easier time achieving that objective in, say, corporate finance, investment banking or legal counseling [ei I get paid to tell people that they're wrong, okay. How cool is that?!].

Anyway, I'd like to think of this "Medicine trend" to be synonymous with the "IT trend" and the currently ongoing "Biotech trend". I personally don't think this craze is going to last forever. It's just a phase, and when supply eventually outweighs demand, everyone will get the hint and hopefully snap to their senses that there's actually more than one type of course being offered at tertiary level.

[luminodreamer89]

A good post, Glassy.
I concur with the points u suggested and agree with most of the points discussed by other recommers above.
Well, I have been constantly told to take up Medicine since form 5. And right now, after completed my A-levels, some of my relatives and close neighbours begin to persuade me again and again.
And up to certain extent, my father and mother did tell me "hey, what do u think about medicine? Not bad, huh..Uncle A said his son....Aunty B said her daughter is earning bla..."

I love sciences, so in my A-levels, I actually took (Bio, Chem, Phy, Math). My college doesnt have such streaming, like pre-meds or what due to insufficient lecturers. However, I do love chinese literature and political sciences, at the same time cuious about the economic issues. I enjoy writing too. So, I seriously know that, Medicine is not going to be my option.
I do respect the doctors, who really possess the hearts of gold and the drive to save any patients. But, I know myself. I know that I need more spare times for my own.

A not-so-bright student might be able to become a doctor as well. Doctor is not a term which synonyms with string of As on a certificate.

[Miracle_seed]

Anyway, I'd like to think of this "Medicine trend" to be synonymous with the "IT trend" and the currently ongoing "Biotech trend". I personally don't think this craze is going to last forever. It's just a phase, and when supply eventually outweighs demand, everyone will get the hint and hopefully snap to their senses that there's actually more than one type of course being offered at tertiary level.In fact, there is one more factor in play, that is the parents' expectation. Many parents tend to put their unachievable childhood dreams on their next generation. Some of them may want to become a doctor in the past, but due to financial constraints, and limited medical seats in the past, they didn't get to realise their dream. They carry their dream and tend to put it on their children, without actually realising what their children wants. When they can afford it (and it's quite affordable for middle-income family now due to increased living standard as well as increased number of private medical institution), they tend to push their children to fulfill their dream in their place. And for the parents' generation, doctor was considered the glamorous career (Together with lawyer and engineer), and such mindset has rooted deeply in their mind, that they want to have someone in the family to attain such glamor too. Unlike the "IT trend", I think the "medicine trend" isn't going to cease so soon, till the parents' mindset change, which I think is going to come earliest in 10 years time (i.e. till the generation in late twenties currently become parents). When the children are still wondering about their future, parents do really play an important role in shaping their children, deciding their future path.

[eve88]

Yes, i know it really does seem like Med is the default for bright students [I'm probably one of them =p my thinking goes like this : okay, so i can't decide on what i want to do. Hm.. whats the courses that will keep me interested and lead to decent pay? *thinks for about 2 secs* ... look, lets just try for med. Hey! I got in! cool.]

I suppose in my case it was "hantam apply first lar if get into med then see", plus the fact that it has one of the highest *stable* pay (Lots of professions get higher, yes, but those tend to fluctuate depending on market conditions), plus also that with medicine theres always new things to learn... and an endless variety of choice - of specialization- later on.

On the other hand, I doubt that it will ever get to the point where supply exceeds demand across the board. Because of the relatively high-entry criteria both into med school, and later on in surviving housemanship -- if you dont have the grades and bookknowlege its tough to stay in the course, if you dont have the $$ to pay fees, etc -- the number of competent doctors churned out every year is limited. More so if you include the less popular specialties (eg rural medicine) - there will likely be a shortage in at least one field of medicine at any one time.

Added to the fact that there are just so many different procedures for treating patients - and the number of new treatments is always increasing - means really that the gap between the resources we have (eg healthcare money, but also doctor's time) and what we theoretically should be able to accomplish increases every day

[nicodemus]

A not-so-bright student might be able to become a doctor as well. Doctor is not a term which synonyms with string of As on a certificate.

I truly agree with this statement of yours. What someone need to be a doctor is interest and passion. These are the things that drive someone to go through the hardships of med school. Those with straight A's but do not have what it takes to be a doctor can't possibly do well.

Besides, some of my friends who didn't obtain straight A's still can pursue their medical dreams by paying & studying in Indonesia, Russia, India or private colleges.

So, suffice to say, anyone can be a doctor if they have the passion, interest and $$$... ;-)
Good grades are just supplementary...

[Glassylicious]

A not-so-bright student might be able to become a doctor as well. Doctor is not a term which synonyms with string of As on a certificate.

I truly agree with this statement of yours. What someone need to be a doctor is interest and passion. These are the things that drive someone to go through the hardships of med school. Those with straight A's but do not have what it takes to be a doctor can't possibly do well.

Besides, some of my friends who didn't obtain straight A's still can pursue their medical dreams by paying & studying in Indonesia, Russia, India or private colleges.

So, suffice to say, anyone can be a doctor if they have the passion, interest and $$$... ;-)
Good grades are just supplementary...

Well, this is how I see it. Medicine is an extremely rigorous course. It's 5 [and in some places, 6] years of incredibly hard work AND at least a certain amount of intelligence. Say what you like about passion and stuff, but the fact remains that we are STILL in the academic world, and at the end of the day, we STILL need to pass the final exams.

What I'm going to say next will be highly controversial, but it has to be said: SPM is a relatively easy exam. Getting straight A1's in your SPM may or may not say something about how smart you are, or how good of a student you are.

And the same goes for A levels if you know what you're doing, it's honestly not that difficult to score a string of A's in your A levels due to the existence of the distribution curve in grading to help you out.

Now moving on to how this is relevant to my argument. I get your points about how perfect exam results may not necessarily make a good doctor and that passion is more important, but you need to realize that when choosing who to admit into medical school, the admissions officers only have your results to go by. You may or may not be right for the course even though you have straight A's , BUT you'll definitely have a higher chance of "being right for the course" compared to someone with 2As, 4Bs and 3Cs.

The fact remains that to get through this Medicine course you're going to need adequate capabilities as well. This includes intelligence [ability to learn things quickly], and proper revision and time management skills. Getting straight A's in the exam will create the presumption that you have those vital skills. Getting straight B's in what is widely regarded as an easy exam will make the admissions officer doubt that you have what it takes to handle the course. For all they know you may have all the right skills and just happen to suck at exam-answering techniques, but it does create a negative impression at first glance.

You can be extremely passionate about being a doctor, but if you're too slow to learn stuff within a week or two, procrastinate heavily or are incapable of doing proper revision, then you're obviously not going to get through that course. I knew some friends who were dead passionate about being doctors but they were horrifyingly slow in grasping stuff even in science classes before university [and this is with the help of additional tuition, mind you!] and it's probably not going to get any better when they get into university.

There's really only so far passion can bring you when it comes to such an academically demanding course. And like it or not, to be a doctor, you're going to conventionally need a degree in Medicine. And yes, that means passing your exams.

In fact, there is one more factor in play, that is the parents' expectation. Many parents tend to put their unachievable childhood dreams on their next generation. Some of them may want to become a doctor in the past, but due to financial constraints, and limited medical seats in the past, they didn't get to realise their dream. They carry their dream and tend to put it on their children, without actually realising what their children wants. When they can afford it (and it's quite affordable for middle-income family now due to increased living standard as well as increased number of private medical institution), they tend to push their children to fulfill their dream in their place. And for the parents' generation, doctor was considered the glamorous career (Together with lawyer and engineer), and such mindset has rooted deeply in their mind, that they want to have someone in the family to attain such glamor too. Unlike the "IT trend", I think the "medicine trend" isn't going to cease so soon, till the parents' mindset change, which I think is going to come earliest in 10 years time (i.e. till the generation in late twenties currently become parents). When the children are still wondering about their future, parents do really play an important role in shaping their children, deciding their future path.

This is an interesting point of view, actually. So how about the idea of the "Medicine Rush" fading as the old generation dies off?

It may be triggered even earlier though, considering how some people actually go back to university for a second degree, this time to do what they like, after graduating the first time to please their parents.



On the other hand, I doubt that it will ever get to the point where supply exceeds demand across the board. Because of the relatively high-entry criteria both into med school, and later on in surviving housemanship -- if you dont have the grades and bookknowlege its tough to stay in the course, if you dont have the $$ to pay fees, etc -- [b]the number of competent doctors churned out every year is limited. More so if you include the less popular specialties (eg rural medicine) - there will likely be a shortage in at least one field of medicine at any one time.

Added to the fact that there are just so many different procedures for treating patients - and the number of new treatments is always increasing - means really that the gap between the resources we have (eg healthcare money, but also doctor's time) and what we theoretically should be able to accomplish increases every day

That's the keyphrase over there. Competent doctors will be limited. But exactly how many doctors we produce locally are truly competent? ;)

What happens to the incompetent ones?

Some of the entry requirements for doing Medicine in certain places are pretty low. This leads to an influx of students hoping to "live the Medicine dream" so to speak. Low entry requirements means the net may let slip some people who are just in for the trend and aren't actually capable of becoming doctors. What happens is that we get a lot of doctors, but all are not necessarily competent and good ones.

So again, what happens to the incompetent ones?

[SapphireDragon]

It seems that Medicine has become the "default" ambition for anyone getting straight A's or close to it.

In Form Five, one of my teachers said "Oh, this is the best class of the year, so I'll assume that all of you want to be doctors".

When I told her that I wanted to be a lawyer she was shocked.

In Taylor's, I took Science subjects for my A levels, and was enrolled into a "pre-meds" class due to the subjects I took [Bio, Chem, Math, Psychology] and everyone wanted to be a doctor as well. And when I said I wanted to do Law they were shocked, asked me what I was doing in a Science class. My Math lecturer said I didn't strike him as the "lawyer-type".

I told one of my uncles that I was going to university to do Law. He pursed his lips and looked elsewhere. Apparently there are "too many lawyers around" and I "should have done Medicine instead". Um...hi, the irony? Within the next 5 years we're going to have way too many doctors around, if this trend goes on. And I can just as easily jump into the corporate world with a Law degree anyway, and the corporate world has always welcomed anyone who has potential. There's always room for one more CEO, one more entrepreneur, one more businessman, one more lawyer as a defense counsel for corporate lawsuits, you get the drift.

But yeah anyway, this demonstrates my point exactly about how Medicine is suddenly the "default". And it doesn't stop there. I know of a few people who regard doing Medicine as standing on the ultimate pedestal of tertiary education, to the extent that they believe that Pharmacy and Biochemistry students are nothing but Medic rejects. =/ Yeah, there are actually people who believe that doing Medic is superior to any other course.

I told my Medic friend that I was once tempted to go down the doctor road, like everyone else, but decided against it due to several reasons. She told me she was glad I made the decision, because working as a doctor in Malaysia, as everyone already knows, is tough and at the end of the day your passion will be the only thing driving you to go on, and I just don't have enough of that to survive. I'm looking to earn some good moolah, and I'd have a way easier time achieving that objective in, say, corporate finance, investment banking or legal counseling [ei I get paid to tell people that they're wrong, okay. How cool is that?!].

Anyway, I'd like to think of this "Medicine trend" to be synonymous with the "IT trend" and the currently ongoing "Biotech trend". I personally don't think this craze is going to last forever. It's just a phase, and when supply eventually outweighs demand, everyone will get the hint and hopefully snap to their senses that there's actually more than one type of course being offered at tertiary level.

Bravo! I like what you say. I'm a straight A1 student to and I intend to pursue a career in law. You make my day...

[nickvl]

Yes, whenever someone finds out out how good so and so's result the inevitible question will be, "So u wanna be doctor ah? I think its been hardwired into many students' brain that that is what they should take up due parents n teachers. And probably the fact that is very nice to have a title Dr in front of your name. It's all about 'face' so professional jobs r more popular than say, culinary arts.

When I'm asked if i wanna be doctor, i just say no. They'll ask why...bla bla... so i just say I'm afraid of blood (which is not true) just to shut them up. If i say its just not my passion, they'll be like....oh ok.... (at this point u get some odd look)

I think the reason why i never ever wanted to be a doctor is because i didnt want to do something that everyone tom, dick and harry seem to be doing. Coupled with that, i never like hospitals where the sick n dying r always around...its so depressing....(i sound uncompassionate but well, i cant deny that feeling)

The best part is when i tell them what i intend to do and they go.....(wide-eyed) LOL. Love that everytime it happens.

[KimKim]

totally agree...majority of my friend that get straight A1 in spm...they prefer medic...dunno why...maybe just like the salary and fame ???

one of my aunt knew that when i choose engineering as my career she say i am stupid...am i??? she say u had choose to be doctor or at least a pharmacy...career that relate to medic had bright future...is that so???is that engineering cannot secure me a good job...???

whatever ....everytime i just answer that doctor is a boring job and i cannot stand the internal organ...lol...

but i know some of them really passion in medic...so cannot just say them all haha...

[Miracle_seed]

You can be extremely passionate about being a doctor, but if you're too slow to learn stuff within a week or two, procrastinate heavily or are incapable of doing proper revision, then you're obviously not going to get through that course. I knew some friends who were dead passionate about being doctors but they were horrifyingly slow in grasping stuff even in science classes before university [and this is with the help of additional tuition, mind you!] and it's probably not going to get any better when they get into university.

There's really only so far passion can bring you when it comes to such an academically demanding course. And like it or not, to be a doctor, you're going to conventionally need a degree in Medicine. And yes, that means passing your exams. This is indeed very true. Passion can't carry you too far, at the end of the day, you still need, to certain extent, some academic abilities, such as memory, ability to grasp things fast, analysis. These qualities are not only found in straight A students, but not every dick, tom, and harry has such abilities.

This is an interesting point of view, actually. So how about the idea of the "Medicine Rush" fading as the old generation dies off? I think it would be more or less decrease, considering the education level of current generation, and I believe and I think they will realise, medicine isn't really a glamorous career as it seems, and the importance of respecting children's choice.

Uncles and aunties will ask you:Hey, your results so good, why you don't want to become a doctor? Being doctor is a good job, you can earn a lot etc... But your friends won't ask this...

That's the keyphrase over there. Competent doctors will be limited. But exactly how many doctors we produce locally are truly competent? ;)

What happens to the incompetent ones?

Some of the entry requirements for doing Medicine in certain places are pretty low. This leads to an influx of students hoping to "live the Medicine dream" so to speak. Low entry requirements means the net may let slip some people who are just in for the trend and aren't actually capable of becoming doctors. What happens is that we get a lot of doctors, but all are not necessarily competent and good ones.

So again, what happens to the incompetent ones?I believe, for a doctor to pass his housemanship, to certain degree, he is competent, or rather, even if he doesn't make a good doctor, he is still an average doctor. Those who are really incompetent will remain in the universities for years, or being housemen for years... Sometimes a good medical student doesn't really make a good doctor...

[SapphireDragon]

Yes, whenever someone finds out out how good so and so's result the inevitible question will be, "So u wanna be doctor ah? I think its been hardwired into many students' brain that that is what they should take up due parents n teachers. And probably the fact that is very nice to have a title Dr in front of your name. It's all about 'face' so professional jobs r more popular than say, culinary arts.

When I'm asked if i wanna be doctor, i just say no. They'll ask why...bla bla... so i just say I'm afraid of blood (which is not true) just to shut them up. If i say its just not my passion, they'll be like....oh ok.... (at this point u get some odd look)

I think the reason why i never ever wanted to be a doctor is because i didnt want to do something that everyone tom, dick and harry seem to be doing. Coupled with that, i never like hospitals where the sick n dying r always around...its so depressing....(i sound uncompassionate but well, i cant deny that feeling)

The best part is when i tell them what i intend to do and they go.....(wide-eyed) LOL. Love that everytime it happens.

I support you fully. But luckily I have understanding parens and relatives that really understand. tell u one thing funny: there was once a one week exposure for medic student applying for JPA, right? Then one friend of my mum whose daughter applied medic suddenly called my mum and yelled" Hey, why my daughter never saw yur son in he hospital? He doesn't know about this intern thing ah?" Haha, my mum then explained and she was shocked too knwoing I didn't take medic. I stick on to my decision and have no regrets so far...

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[tai1611]

The core issue at hand is that it shouldn't be the case that every single straight A student should be compelled to pursue a career in medicine just because he/she has the paper qualifications to do so. However, universities nowadays have acknowledged the fact that strong academic qualifications are not always a gauge of one's ability to perform well as a doctor. Admissions process now include interview sessions with the applicants and a thorough vetting of their past extra-curricular achievements. I'm not very sure how it is done in Malaysia by universities such as IMU, RCSI and MAHSA but universities in the West have long had stringent admission standards. It seems that we have failed to step up to that level.

Again, it is worthy to note, that it is the sad state of our society whereby our actions are often dictated by the questions of family honor, societal standing and money that has led many of our students to want to pursue medicine. That said, it might be wise for me not to generalize as there are also some students who are genuinely passionate about what they want to do with their careers.

Regrettably, the sordid state of affairs within the medical profession in Malaysia has created much pessimism about the general quality of our doctors. Until this mentality whereby good students are 'coerced' into pursuing a path of education that they are not entirely interested in by their teachers/parents/grandparents/siblings/friends we can never raise the standards of our medical profession to that attained by other countries.

[Joveen]

totally agree...majority of my friend that get straight A1 in spm...they prefer medic...dunno why...maybe just like the salary and fame ???

one of my aunt knew that when i choose engineering as my career she say i am stupid...am i??? she say u had choose to be doctor or at least a pharmacy...career that relate to medic had bright future...is that so???is that engineering cannot secure me a good job...???

whatever ....everytime i just answer that doctor is a boring job and i cannot stand the internal organ...lol...

but i know some of them really passion in medic...so cannot just say them all haha...

No doubt that they are plenty of brilliant students opting to do medicine and to be honest , a tiny of portion of them are aiming for the monetary reward(I only found out after attending the exposure programme.I dont mean the doctors here instead the students who attended with me ) And there are only small portion of them.. We just cant generalise. not every bright students want to do medicine. Is because they really have their own reasons and their lifetime passion for it.

I just dont understand why must the some might think that a student who actually chooses medicine is not because of his or her decision? not every student who aspires to be a doctor is due to their GOOD results, friends or perhaps parents expectation. each and everyone of us have our own reason why we take up the respective courses. and of course including medical students!

Have u ever confront them and ask why are they interested in medicine? Why cant we have it said the other way round?? Students who are at a young age already have a burning passion to do medicine, so they know very well where their directions which is why they study so hard to deserve the "so many A1's"

[Glassylicious]

I believe, for a doctor to pass his housemanship, to certain degree, he is competent, or rather, even if he doesn't make a good doctor, he is still an average doctor. Those who are really incompetent will remain in the universities for years, or being housemen for years... Sometimes a good medical student doesn't really make a good doctor...

Good point there. There will no doubt be other factors in determining a doctor's worth, among others, his interaction with patients, ability to listen, etc.

But still we get stories about full-fledged doctors who are incompetent yet still keep their jobs...=/ My point is that we should really be more selective and restrictive when it comes to choosing who to accept for a Medicine course instead of letting in everyone who claims to have the passion for it.

No doubt that they are plenty of brilliant students opting to do medicine and to be honest , a tiny of portion of them are aiming for the monetary reward(I only found out after attending the exposure programme.I dont mean the doctors here instead the students who attended with me ) And there are only small portion of them.. We just cant generalise. not every bright students want to do medicine. Is because they really have their own reasons and their lifetime passion for it.

I just dont understand why must the some might think that a student who actually chooses medicine is not because of his or her decision? not every student who aspires to be a doctor is due to their GOOD results, friends or perhaps parents expectation. each and everyone of us have our own reason why we take up the respective courses. and of course including medical students!

Have u ever confront them and ask why are they interested in medicine? Why cant we have it said the other way round?? Students who are at a young age already have a burning passion to do medicine, so they know very well where their directions which is why they study so hard to deserve the "so many A1's"

We're not saying they don't or can't make the decision to do Medicine. We're saying they do make the decision, but for all the wrong reasons. We're not generalizing either, nor are we saying that "MOST students who do Medicine do it for the wrong reasons". We're pointing out the alarming number of students aspiring to do Medicine without true passion behind it. We're not saying MOST students do it, we're saying MANY students do it, and that, frankly, is enough cause for concern.

And yes, I've talked to some aspiring Medics and they've given me some pretty crappy reasons as well.

[zane]

Pursue wat u want...Not other wants...:)

[xellos]

Pursue wat u want...Not other wants...:)

And also your interest. No matter how much money you can make, it can't buy your satisfaction. You wake up every day and think its another torturous day..
This especially holds true, for people who want to doctors. They must really have the passion to serve the patients, regardless poor or rich.

[nemosmknimh]

I really agree that the trend nowadays is straight a's students should do medic....

why???
because the minister of pengajian tinggi said that to me.
well i was attending this ekspo pengajian tinggi at johor bahru recently...
while i was checking up an IPTS booth for physiotherapy and pharmacy(no medic),
came the minister and what so ever reporter there....
the minister stood beside me and asked me how is my result...
so i said 9 1a's....
and then he went like 'why not medic....this course doesnt suit you'
and then all people around him mumbled 'str8 a student doesnt want medic....*giggle*'

i was like 'what is this' then i quickly got out from there.....
i never like medic though my whole class seem to be medic addict.....
and i am more interested in pharmacy

[SapphireDragon]

I really agree that the trend nowadays is straight a's students should do medic....

why???
because the minister of pengajian tinggi said that to me.
well i was attending this ekspo pengajian tinggi at johor bahru recently...
while i was checking up an IPTS booth for physiotherapy and pharmacy(no medic),
came the minister and what so ever reporter there....
the minister stood beside me and asked me how is my result...
so i said 9 1a's....
and then he went like 'why not medic....this course doesnt suit you'
and then all people around him mumbled 'str8 a student doesnt want medic....*giggle*'

i was like 'what is this' then i quickly got out from there.....
i never like medic though my whole class seem to be medic addict.....
and i am more interested in pharmacy

You have to understand that at the 1st place the gov really needs more docs at public hospitals...so its good for a minister to suggest medic especialy to a bright student with potential.

[nickvl]

I support you fully. But luckily I have understanding parens and relatives that really understand. tell u one thing funny: there was once a one week exposure for medic student applying for JPA, right? Then one friend of my mum whose daughter applied medic suddenly called my mum and yelled" Hey, why my daughter never saw yur son in he hospital? He doesn't know about this intern thing ah?" Haha, my mum then explained and she was shocked too knwoing I didn't take medic. I stick on to my decision and have no regrets so far...

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Good for you to have such support....As for me only my immediate family members seem to ...the rest uncle aunties r soooo typical.... I once went to a family dinner n suddenly everyone seemed to be an expert on what i should do. "Biotech la better...bla bla bla. Engineering where can u find job hah tell me ...bla bla..."

Mind you, not once did they pause to ask whether I would enjoy doing whatever course they suggested....

[SapphireDragon]

Good for you to have such support....As for me only my immediate family members seem to ...the rest uncle aunties r soooo typical.... I once went to a family dinner n suddenly everyone seemed to be an expert on what i should do. "Biotech la better...bla bla bla. Engineering where can u find job hah tell me ...bla bla..."

Mind you, not once did they pause to ask whether I would enjoy doing whatever course they suggested....

Next time this happens, flip the table and spill all the shark's fin and abalone on yur uncles and aunties....haha, just joking. We determine wat we want in life...not kepoh people who just wants to voice their misconcepted opinions for the sake of raising it...Im not trying to offend yur relatives here

[tadaa]

..........

[eve88]

Re : Incompetent Doctors
They should get their license suspended! But ... it really should not get to the point where you enter a hospital and are placed under the care of someone who is incompetent. All staff should be competent to perform what they're responsible for - be it just observing and keeping patient confidentiality (med students!), or taking BP and pulse, all the way up to specialized neurosurgery.

Thats (one of) the goals of med training. Yes, i know, reality is very far from what "should be"

But there are more than one way of doing it - (note im using incompetent as a description of skills and ability, not as an insult)
1) Accept everybody who tries to get in, and then weed out incompetents later in exams
2) High entry criteria into the course itself
3) Make the training so bloody long and so difficult that - even if you dont flunk ppl out - incompetents will be inclined to drop it

Plus any other way you can think of...

-------

Re : Making the decision for the wrong reasons

Honestly, I don't care why the doctor treating me chose to be a doc in the first place - I just want to get well. Does it really matter that he is in it for the money? or that he entered medicine cause of parent/peer/society pressure? The only thing I'm concerned with is his *competence*.

Yes, a bright, passionate med student has higher chances of achieving that level of skill. Yes, a desperately unhappy med student will not bother to pick up the trade.
However most students fall in between - neither burningly passionate or brilliant, nor suicidally depressed or dumb, but happy and interested enough to pick up at least the essentials.

But I think the flaw in the system is less at admissions level but more at the assessment ("weeding out") level - an incompetent doctor should not be licensed in the first place.

[youngyew]

From my experience, if a medical student says "I am in it for the money, job stability, job satisfaction and social status", many people would be quick to shoot him down simply because he dared to mention the word "money" at all. This has made many people reluctant to say the word "money" when asked about the reason behind choosing medicine.

And this is simply wrong.

Re : Making the decision for the wrong reasons

Honestly, I don't care why the doctor treating me chose to be a doc in the first place - I just want to get well. Does it really matter that he is in it for the money? or that he entered medicine cause of parent/peer/society pressure? The only thing I'm concerned with is his *competence*.

Yes, a bright, passionate med student has higher chances of achieving that level of skill. Yes, a desperately unhappy med student will not bother to pick up the trade.
However most students fall in between - neither burningly passionate or brilliant, nor suicidally depressed or dumb, but happy and interested enough to pick up at least the essentials.

But I think the flaw in the system is less at admissions level but more at the assessment ("weeding out") level - an incompetent doctor should not be licensed in the first place.
I think you hit the nail on the head there.

Many people have this utopian ideal of "I only want passionate doctors in this world, any doctors who are not noble enough to treat patients in Africa or any doctors who even thought about money for one second should be sacked from the profession". Yes it would be great if everyone is that noble, that passionate, that competent, that selfless; but you would be hard-pressed to find anyone who fits every single criteria of yours. Doctors are mere mortal like you and I; they are not saints.

At the end of the day, you would prefer a surgeon who is a prick but is technically superb than a humane, passionate surgeon who sucks at whatever procedure he does. Of course it's ideal to have both, BUT given the scarcity of human resource in medicine, sometimes we are forced to choose, and it's the competency that is the key in the end.

***

Anyway, back to the original question. Is medicine THE path for EVERY bright student? Definitely not. However, there are certain factors to be considered in the context of our society and country.

If you are passionate and is excellent in certain fields e.g. arts, programming etc, then heading to medicine could be a waste of your talent since you probably would do better in professions that suit your passion, and (pardon the sensitive word) earn more money in it.

What if you love arts but is mediocre in it; but you think you have the right character, and you are prepared for the hardship of medicine in exchange for the stable income and the social status? I don't think why you should be discouraged from medicine; though you better be damn sure you are prepared for the sacrifice ahead of your life before you jump in the bandwagon.

In a developing country like ours, the harsh reality is that non-critical professions have pretty low job availability. In US, UK or Australia, if you love history and is damn good at it, then you probably would go for history in uni level as there's a wider career option for you. But in Malaysia, if you love history and is damn good at it, you would be advised by your parents, aunts, teachers and friends NOT to take up history in uni. And they are probably right. Yes you would probably love the studies and remain passionate about it till the end of your life; but if you end up bumming after graduation (which unfortunately is quite possible given the career option), your parents, aunts and teachers would not hesitate to add insult to your injury - "see I told you". Of course if you are excellent enough then you could stay overseas and build a healthy career for yourself, but as with everything, this remains a gamble for the individual concerned, the odds of which need very careful consideration.

You can't always say the idealistic sentence of "if you are passionate about it everything will work out alright"; because the real life doesn't work that way. For every single famous person in the newspaper who managed to live their dream according to their passion, there are hundreds of others who fail to make the appearance. If you are confident you will be successful then by all means go for it; but that doesn't mean that those who go for the "safer" career options are making the wrong choice.

[SapphireDragon]

I have the feeling everybody here is laying negative comments on doctors because everybody didn't choose medic. i think its a little unfair. Any medic student here to argue the case?

[henry_yew]

Now for the record, years back before I entered the technological university, my mother and my uncle, who is a doctor and whose wife is also a doctor, had the following conversation:

Mother: Do you think my son should be encouraged to take up medicine?
Uncle: Hell, no!
Mother: (extremely taken aback) Why lah?
Uncle: Doctors will soon be all over the place. I want to cari makan now also susah leh...

---

You know, this is a really old topic that has been persisted for so many years, even up till now. It is a sad scenario that people take for granted. It is also a wrong mindset which tells people that taking up medicine is the path towards lucrative salaries, or at least a stable form of income. (After all, they say, people do get sick! Gah!) Then comes the magic keywords - bright students... should become doctors.

I had that during my time, too. I was very much discouraged from being a lawyer or a computer engineer. Even when I expressed interest in accountancy my parents were not very much enthusiastic about it. And when I was younger and expressed interest in music, I was figuratively shot down with an automatic rifle.

However, it is so true that parents' persuasion is quite powerful. Due to their discouragement, I gave up about becoming a lawyer, a computer engineer or an accountant. They were hard about me becoming a doctor, but knowing myself, I will never make a good doctor at all. Why? Well, do you want a hemophobic doctor?

So, I settled for civil engineering, which is not really my best-loved subject (honestly) and is not the ideal course that my parents would want me to take. However, since I've got a scholarship to do it, that sealed their mouths for good. And now that I have found my calling, I do not really regret taking up this course after all.

But the bottom line is this - if you want to be a doctor, an engineer, a lawyer, a teacher, etc. it is not the lucrative pay that should attract you. You want high profits? Be a businessman!

It is sickening to hear people say that they want to become something just purely for profits (except businesspeople). Yes, I know that every job comes with a pay, otherwise you would not opt for it at all. But getting a career is more than just getting your monthly share of payment. In the end, has it struck you that you are actually happy or unhappy about what you are doing? Do you think that you are doing any form of contribution to the society and the country? Does the career that you have chosen still give you that excess baggage that can only be relieved from you by giving up your current career and pursuing something that may not even give you any monetary reward?

It is not wrong to be money-minded, but the older generation should realise that not everyone shares the vision to be money-minded. And some of the older generation would even persecute the younger ones for defying their "orders" to take up the career that the younger ones do not want. It is like getting you an arranged marriage, of which you find the bride or the bridegroom detestable. Do you really want that?

Being a BRIGHT student does not mean that you should narrow your options to medicine, or law, or engineering for that matter! Other industries also need bright minds to bring them up, especially the education industry. It is sad that while parents keep encouraging their children to be doctors, not many are encouraging to be teachers. And we DO need bright minds in the teaching industry! If we can ask the question - "Do you want people with 2As, 3Bs and 4Cs to be your doctor?" then similarly we can ask - "Do you want people with 2As, 3Bs and 4Cs to be your teacher, your son's teacher, and your son's son's teacher?"

[SapphireDragon]

I personally look forward to teaching but after I have laid the foundations of my career. for example, if i become a lawyer, I'll pursue a Master's and then open a law firm. After that, only I become a lecturer in a university. Isn't that also a form of teaching and contribution towards education? That's why I did not choose teaching as a career. Because I will still be able to teach later in my life. What do u think?

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[YcajGno]

I guess it's the norms that we are inclined to choose to take medicine as our next pathway right after our major examinations. I have to say I have a couple of friends who have been saying that they wanna take up medicine, and I reckon its because of the pride of being called as a doctor or specialist, which made them come to that decision. In my honest opinion, it's really very stupid and unrealistic to the real world. As most of you have said, when it comes to picking the suitable and right choice of course, its like choosing the right car for ourselves. There are so many factors to be considered, but it seems like some aren't wise enough to weigh the pros and cons together. I'm not saying that taking medicine is completely wrong, but you have to ensure that you've got the passion for it, a role model, someone like Mother Teresa maybe who enjoys helping people and gets the joy outta it.

But the sad truth is, I'm speaking generally, regardless of those who have really found what they wanna do in life, people are oblivious and ignorant to what they're really going to face when taking up medicine. It's one of the toughest, and has the most competition in the industry as qualified doctors and specialists are always in demand right now. We start off by studying our asses off for 7 years maybe? And thats not the end of it. i know some people who chose to take up medicine just because it sounds well..cool. And being called a doctor is even more cool. Or so we thought huh. Its hard to find real passion nowadays.

Being a doctor does secure you a place to live in, perhaps with a 5 figure pay as well. But seriously man, how would you be able to help people sincerely if your eyes are focussed on the cash? Who needs fame and fortune when you can get it from doing what you're really into. I've always wanted to do engineering, but people kept asking me, "Why not medicine? Be a doctor! High pay weh!!!" I know it may be more up-to-standard if you became a doctor, but there are many doctors who are the epitome of fail around. I don't see how becoming a doctor is gonna make a huge difference. But then again, if you appear to be one of the best, then that is what we are looking for in a doctor.

I am pretty sure not everyone here is interested in taking up medicine, and probably its one of the reasons this thread has been posted up. I see the contradictions. You can go so much the distance being a successful accountant, lawyer, or even an engineer. After all it boils down to how hard you're gonna work to be recognized and be taken seriously upon.

[eve88]

me and youngyew(if im not mistaken) are doing med... tho I've only been one for a grand total of 2 months and a bit. =p

But I'm not particularly passionate about medicine - I'm in it for the job stability and decent pay and because the subject is interesting enough that learning is not too much of a chore.

There doesn't seem much of a case supporting the statement "Medicine is a pathway to EVERY bright student". Unless you take it to mean "Medicine is a (good) option to consider for every bright student." Which is arguable.

Things being what there are, if you graduate from med school and end up a reasonably skilled doctor - you definitely won't stave.

But personal motivations are *personal* - the relevant question is "How good a doctor are you / will you be?" , not "Why do you choose medicine?"

[eugenetoh91]

Our country needs a lot of doctor,no doubt. But whether it is a pathway for every bright students, I strongly and fervently do not think so. It is just a stable job and is able to have a decent salary. Sitting in the doctor's office for the whole day or going for surgery that's all. I certainly couldn't stand this kind of working atmosphere. I prefer to hold a meeting with my employees, give a speech on the stage, doing things pertaining to big projects and so on. Being a charismatic person, I think Im able to become an idol CEO.haha. Doctors are having little fame because they treat and cure people, thats why they are one of the most respected careers, other than teachers. But, if you choose to become a doctor solely because of the lucrative salary, then surely you are in the wrong track. How lucrative are you thinking of? 5digits per month? or 6digits per month? or 7 digits per month? Well, 5digits per month maybe a lot for a certain people, but I do not think it is called lucrative as you still need to think twice when you are buying a thing. Lucrative means, in my opinion, you can just buy whatever you want thinking you should buy or not. Well orcourse, being a doctor is good actually, in our country. Many people respect doctors.

[SapphireDragon]

Our country needs a lot of doctor,no doubt. But whether it is a pathway for every bright students, I strongly and fervently do not think so. It is just a stable job and is able to have a decent salary. Sitting in the doctor's office for the whole day or going for surgery that's all. I certainly couldn't stand this kind of working atmosphere. I prefer to hold a meeting with my employees, give a speech on the stage, doing things pertaining to big projects and so on. Being a charismatic person, I think Im able to become an idol CEO.haha. Doctors are having little fame because they treat and cure people, thats why they are one of the most respected careers, other than teachers. But, if you choose to become a doctor solely because of the lucrative salary, then surely you are in the wrong track. How lucrative are you thinking of? 5digits per month? or 6digits per month? or 7 digits per month? Well, 5digits per month maybe a lot for a certain people, but I do not think it is called lucrative as you still need to think twice when you are buying a thing. Lucrative means, in my opinion, you can just buy whatever you want thinking you should buy or not. Well orcourse, being a doctor is good actually, in our country. Many people respect doctors.

Exactly same like u in the jpa interview. Love $$$$ haha! Become engineer and open up yur own business, something like that, right? But when I attended the Star Edu Fair in KLCC, the speaker Dr.Surjit Singh said if u want to be a rich and still be in the healthcare sector, be a businessman and open yur own hospital. That way, u can still be respected as contributing to society, maybe even more respected than a doctor, and the big bucks will keep flowing in yur pockets. Isn't this a great idea???

[Sue]

I personally think that yeah, this is stereotyping and both students and parents should be awaken from this illusion --bright student=doctor=success. They should understand that to become a doctor (not that I am one), you need that little bit of passion or else they will regret and become a sulky doctor. And this is definitely unhealthy to the patients as well as the doc him/herself. The equation which I mentioned above consists of invisible obstacles/complex workings which are unforseen due to the short-sightedness of parents and probably the students, too. To become a GP will take around 5 to 6 years and unless one is satisfactory with sitting in a clinic giving out cough mixture/ flu medicine, she/he will have to go on for specialisation. If the doc willingly pursue specialisation out of interest/money/prestige, it's fine as long as he/she wants it. But if it's out of desperation, as in this kinda aiya-no-choice-la-already-come-this-far-just-do-loh-since-everyone-is-doing mindset, I really pity the doc. A person once told me if you choose doc, you are choosing your life. I believe that this is true, unless you can overcome social precognition and quit halfway or venture into another profession for a so-called greener pasture. Either you have robbed other ppl chances of become one potential good doc or you have wasted your time. All those money if you are sadly, under PPMM scholarsihp could be spent better. So, I really hope that those doc-wannabes out there could sit down and think properly b4 making any decisions. Assess the potential risks and whether you are really interested in medicine. It's your life, not your parents!

P/S: PPMM scholarship=papamama scholarship hahahahaha

[inadilemma]

i feel those who aspire to be doctors should persevere to reach their objectives.
it is not just any bright students should opt for medicine.
firstly, its all about your interest. know yourselves well and know what you really want in life.
i should say that becoming a doctor is a job of satisfaction and contentment.
its not about the salary. the fact is doctors in malaysia especially doctors in government hospitals dont earn much to be millionaires when they are 30.

my brother is an engineer. he comes back everyday complaining about his job...pay not proportional to the amount of toils and sweat..and worst still they are like 'slaves' to the company being controlled by the management and administration department. so, i feel sorry for him, having studied many long years.
but good news is, i read from star newspaper dated 20th april 2009 that malaysia need another 200,000 engineers by the year 2020. there are only merely 60,000 now.

a doctor works TOGETHER with staff nurses and paramedics. let me highlight, its "TOGETHER". not for anyone of higher authorities, but for many hopeful patients.
a doctor takes charge of a situation with the co-operations of other staffs, saving lives and bringing hopes to patients' lives, just like the sun breaking through the clouds-bringing light to the world once again.
of course, i realized that its a huge responsiblity to shoulder as doctors are dealing with humans of flesh and blood. therefore, negligence is a big no-no and must be avoided. a single mistake can cause a terrible effect.

however, as the saying goes, every cloud has a silver lining.
ask yourselves, do you feel happy helping someone in need?
the answer is of course yes.
so, i would say that becoming a doctor is a noble and caring job.
just like a soldier who fight for our country, a doctor must be mentally and physically prepared to fight against diseases.
its not about how smart or intelligent or how albert einstein and newton you are.
its about your passion and interest and your diligence to serve to be a quality doctor.

in conclusion, i must admit that all professions are challenging. it doesnt matter if you are a doctor, lawyer, teacher, engineer, accountant, pharmacist, dentist, sales manager, businessman, policeman, judge, chef, or a fashion designer- each of them has its own job prospects and holds different comitments. each serves different purposes to life, like a balanced ecosystem and our stable body system where different organs work together.

as for salaries, i feel that the government and private sectors should revise their policies and not make all professionals 'cheap labours'. as i have mentioned earlier, the output (salaries and allowances) must be proportional to the input (stress and toils in a profession)
in short, every occupation depend on each other. it takes many littles to make a world.
kudos to all professions!

lastly, follow your heart and do what you want not your parents' will.
just work hard and dont forget to enjoy every bit you do!
live your life to the fullest!!!

[luminodreamer89]

After reading the posts, I very much agree with youngyew's and eve88.
It's very common for us to fall into a mindset which we overlook the competency of the doctors when we discuss. We have been encouraging the students to opt for medicine for the drive, passion and desire to help, but we fail to look at the other end of this mindset.
Doctors who are passionate but incompetent will always be condemned, rather than doctors who are materialistic but skillful ones.

However, what I would like to say is, back to the topic, doctor is not a pathway for every bright student, but students who are willing to pick up the skills, to endure the long hours, to withstand the harsh critics and to handle the critical situation. You see, I use the word willing. HE/SHE might not have this ability when he/she chooses it. But if he/she is willing to learn, why not giving them a chance to venture into this field?

At an age of mere 18 or 20 (after SPM/pre-u), we cant really say a student is matured enough to make a decision, especially a decision which will determine other people lives, like being a doctor. After all, we are still adolescents. Our relatives, parents, teachers will always have a say on our decisions, mainly because they have encountered the hardships and faced the reality in life. They just dont want us to follow their footsteps.

In Malaysia, it is indeed hard to go on the road not taken, or less travelled by others. Who will really have the courage to be a town cleaner? With the great ambition to sweep the streets so that the town will look so beautiful and hygeine. When people talk about it, we will always use the same cliche, "they are good. they are noble. They still hold the responsibility for our town cleanliness, though they are looked down by the people." Back to the reality, will we feel proud if our friends, or someone we know is doing this job?

So, doctors, lawyers, engineers and accoutants will still be the hot choices. It will remain for many years to come. However, someone above said that even engineers are having a lower rank compared to doctors. Personally, I feel that it is rather a misconception. Maybe we should see it this way. Doctor could be the highest profession we can go in the field of biology, while engineer is for physics.

In conclusion, I will still hold on one phrase, results bring you this far, but passions bring u farther down.

[yanno_yamster]

Regarding to the thread question, my answer is no. I might be considered "bright" in my school but I know that I'm a clumsy person and I might end up jeopardising my patients' life and limb instead of healing them if I were to be a doctor. I did thought of being a veterinarian when I was younger just to realise the exact same thing as above, except that it's even harder to diagnose animals because they can't tell you where they feel uncomfortable...
My friends always wondered why I didn't want to be a doctor because they see that I'm the type who doesn't get emotional easily (huh?)...

My mother doesn't really force me in what career to pursue as long as I fulfill these criterias (according to priority):
1. Within my interest
2. Good job outlook
3(tie). Able to cope with studies/working lifestyle
3(tie). Decent income
I kinda failed the third criteria (working lifestyle) for the doctor career being clumsy and lazy so... Nope in being a doctor... But I do admire doctors because they are so brainy and at the same time have good people skills (not all of them though).

[Miracle_seed]

And we DO need bright minds in the teaching industry! If we can ask the question - "Do you want people with 2As, 3Bs and 4Cs to be your doctor?" then similarly we can ask - "Do you want people with 2As, 3Bs and 4Cs to be your teacher, your son's teacher, and your son's son's teacher?"Sometimes bright students do not equal to good teachers, teaching and learning are two quite different things, some students can grasp concepts well, but couldn't put them in good explanation. It doesn't matter if the teacher has few Bs and Cs, as long as he/she is good in his subject. We can't expect a science teacher to be very good in history, right?

Okay back to the topic, here is a scenario among some top scorers right after SPM results are released:
Student A: I want to become a doctor, and I have always wanted to be, I have the passion, I like this job, I don't care about the salary etc... so I'm going to apply for medicine for scholarship. Even if I don't get it, I will study any pre-U, I will score the best results and get into local universities, even if I can't, I will go for private ones, nothing else other than medicine...!!
Student B: I want to be further my studies in musics, but my parents want me to become a doctor, saying studying musics has unsecured future... I guess I'll be a good son then...
Student C: My father wants me to follow his footsteps, so I'm going to apply for medicine.
Student D: My results are good, but I have no idea about my future, my parents and teachers say I should apply for medicine, so I will follow their advice.
Student E: My uncles who are doctor told me they earn 5 to 6 digits per month opening their own clinics! I want to be the same too, I will go for medicine.
Student F: I'm interested in Biology and human body, hmm.... medicine? Sounds interesting.... Yeah, I choose you, medicine!
Student G: I don't know what I want to do... Hey, all of you are going to apply for medicine? Count me in..!!

Assuming all them get the scholarship, they will all become doctors in the future, no doubt. Assuming again all of them fail to get a scholarship, how many will eventually become a doctor? Definitely A will, and C probably, but for the others, after some 1-2 years consideration during pre-U, they might change their mind, and have taken another path.

There is another student,
Student H: I want to become a doctor, just like A, but my results are not that brilliant, I have an A2, I know I can't get it if I apply for medicine, but I want to study overseas... What should I do? Erm... I think I'll go for Biotech, I have higher chance of securing the scholarship.

For this student, if he gets the scholarship, there goes his medic dream, if he doesn't get it, he might, as well stay locally, do his pre-U and become a doctor in the future.

Okay, this is the scenario right after SPM. There will be different stories for STPM/Matriculation leavers.

[youngyew]

I see the word passion being thrown about quite a lot in this thread. Just wondering, what is the meaning of "passion" in your mind? Is it a constant or a dependent variable?

[henry_yew]

Some might refer to passion as just love towards a particular subject. Some might even add that the passion towards particular subject must also come with the commitment from the individual. Others might even suggest that passion is the deep interest and enthusiasm that the individual has for a particular subject. When a person is passionate about what they do, it could mean that the person is very much enthusiastic and interested about the subject, very much in love with what they are doing or very committed about what they are doing. It can also be a fusion of all the three.

Whether it should be a constant or a dependent variable, well, my gut tells me that it should be a dependent variable, only that I do not seem to be able to argue on it. (Brain freeze due to intense studying of Highway Engineering...)

[nickvl]

I see the word passion being thrown about quite a lot in this thread. Just wondering, what is the meaning of "passion" in your mind? Is it a constant or a dependent variable?

Well, i could give u the definition from a dictionary....haha...but i wont (too lazy to get up and get a dictionary...dun like online dictionary and encyclopeadias).
I guess 'passion' to me is doing something voluntarily n keep going on when many would have caved in or when it seems almost like a lost cause,(think of ppl like mother theresa n those enviromentalists etc) or when u do something for personal satisfaction rather than external rewards e.g money.

A student finds a particular subject fascinating. He/she continues to love it even though he/she may totally suck at it unlike many who hate a subject simply because its tough and dont do well in it. I think what that student feels is passion. For example, if you truly truly want to be a doctor because your passion is helping others, in that case when thay don't give u the course u want (medic) n give u say, physiotherapy or nursing, u will voluntarily and willingly go for it because u truly wanna help ppl. That's passion.

Of course, one must be careful because there's a fine line between passion and practicality. A person may work overtime n stay late into the night working not because he has passion for the job. in fact he hates it. But he continues because he thinks practically and know it would ensure him extra pay, raise, promotion etc. Likewise, all SPM staright As scorers do well (ignore the variable factor of lowering of stardard) not because they really love all the subjects (I mean, who likes Moral??) but because we are practical ppl. We know we have to do well so that it ensures a bright future...although many still don't really know what they want to do...

I think 'passion' is both a constant and dependent variable. It sounds contradictory i know.... Some ppl continue on even though they experience disillusionment with what they do because ultimately deep down they still believe in it. Therefore it is a constant. Then again, many times one never thought of taking up something, someone suggests or force him/her do take it up. They do, and then find they have the passion for it. Therefore, it is also dependent because something has to occur for that passion to be ignited, so to speak,

okay... i think i ranted a lil too long and i think i stopped making sense after line 3. LOL :nuts




"The passions are the only orators which always persuades"
Fracois Duc De La Rochefoucauld

" Passion, though a bad regulator, is a powerful spring"
Ralph Waldo Emerson

[eve88]

Dependent variable.

It is dependent on the individual's personality, what they are exposed to, and to a lesser extent, how they are exposed to a topic/idea/dream. Other influences can also shape the passion/interest - new information eg "I used to like physics until I learnt about relativity theory which I think is utter rubbish", rewards or satisfaction, and "punishments", ie the 'bad' things that wear a passion down - like being un(der)appreciated.

Passion doesn't come from nowhere, it is acquired - if you haven't heard music before, if you don't know anything about math, if you haven't been exposed to history - you will never be passionate about it. A newborn baby isn't passionate about anything. Only after learning about something can you develop any interest in it. And the interest may grow into passion.

If we accept that you can increase your passion in a subject, and grow more and more dedicated to that, then we should also accept the converse, that passion can wane. Taken further, if we accept that passion is acquired, it can also be lost.

The person that is disillusioned but still continue with something - the disillusionment wasn't enough to counteract his satisfaction. But, once satisfaction/rewards is outweighed by the detriments ... at that point it ceases being a joy and passion is, sadly, lost.

But the thing about passion is this : it derives from internal satisfaction (or internal motivation), and thus external factors play a lesser role in influencing it.

(However, don't ask me to define passion =p)

[louisev7]

That's exactly what happened to me. My father missed his chance of doing medicine during his days. So I was brought up with words of encouragement...."you grow up be a doctor ah"....the thing was just stuck in my brain...but after i got my straight A1 results, i started thinking about what i really wanted to do. First i put medicine for jpa. 2 days later i changed to dentistry....relatives started calling and advising me to take medic. I just told them i was afraid of blood and internal organs...which was a lie....Just because i got straight A doesn't mean i have to do medic. Now my bro who is 15 is given the pressure...daddy said he should do medic after spm....:(....

Wow, you gave the exactly same lie which I gave to my relatives! Though they mean well, but they are too 'noisy' for me. I don't want explain so much since I know there isn't a more 'Holier" job in their eyes other than being a doctor. However,the fact was I really made lot of them disappointed, especially my dad.. But I am not going to do it for them, because IT"S MY LIFE, I am master of myself!

[SapphireDragon]

Wow, you gave the exactly same lie which I gave to my relatives! Though they mean well, but they are too 'noisy' for me. I don't want explain so much since I know there isn't a more 'Holier" job in their eyes other than being a doctor. However,the fact was I really made lot of them disappointed, especially my dad.. But I am not going to do it for them, because IT"S MY LIFE, I am master of myself!

So at last what course u choose?

hey juz wan tell or recomers that an article of mine was published in The Star today at the reader's letters section. Read it here (http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2009/4/21/focus/3733396&sec=focus).

[louisev7]

So at last what course u choose?

hey juz wan tell or recomers that an article of mine was published in The Star today at the reader's letters section. Read it here (http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2009/4/21/focus/3733396&sec=focus).

I choose pharmacy at last. Because I am interested in Chemistry and Biology. Life of a doctor doesn't suit me at all though I think I could cope with it as challenges are always surprises for me. Did I make a right decision?

[nickvl]

I choose pharmacy at last. Because I am interested in Chemistry and Biology. Life of a doctor doesn't suit me at all though I think I could cope with it as challenges are always surprises for me. Did I make a right decision?

There's no such thing as right or wrong choices....Just choices what you make of the consequences.

"20 years from now you’ll be more disappointed by the things you didn’t do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore, experience, discover"
Mark Twain

[teddyen]

"20 years from now you’ll be more disappointed by the things you didn’t do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore, experience, discover"
Mark Twain

^ i like this quote :D

doctors are overated, imo...
and that is followed by pharmacy and dentistry (maybe engineering?) AND accountancy
mostly because these are 'safer' professional courses...

how many people u know who took subjects like graphic design, economics, social science, animation, architecture, business despite having excellent results? a few, but definitely not a lot. and to an even lesser degree, closer to unheard of, courses like history, languages major?
^ there's a reason for it though, malaysia just don't have the market for it =.=

My friend (very smart with excellent results) who was pushed to take medicine too, because from young it was expected of her, and she never dreamed of anything else...
until she applied JPA, and she realized she has the option of choosing vet (yesh, she's crazy bout animals) and when she did, aunties and relatives keep questioning her
'aiyah, why u choose this? no future... blah blah blah" ><

i mean, seriously...!? O_o

[Joveen]

I have a little doubt here. Let's say two bright students. One is really interested in medicine and he is willing to go as far as he could but lacks certain skills like bedside manner, rhetoric speaking when it comes to persuading patients to do what is best for them and etc. And the other one who never thought of medicine in his entire life but possess all the skills needed which the earlier does not have.

If both of them are to enrol in a medical school, which one of them do you think will be a better doctor when they graduate? the one who still struggle to be a doctor? or the one who will have no interest in treating patients?

[youngyew]

doctors are overated, imo...
and that is followed by pharmacy and dentistry (maybe engineering?) AND accountancy
mostly because these are 'safer' professional courses...

how many people u know who took subjects like graphic design, economics, social science, animation, architecture, business despite having excellent results? a few, but definitely not a lot. and to an even lesser degree, closer to unheard of, courses like history, languages major?
^ there's a reason for it though, malaysia just don't have the market for it =.=

My friend (very smart with excellent results) who was pushed to take medicine too, because from young it was expected of her, and she never dreamed of anything else...
until she applied JPA, and she realized she has the option of choosing vet (yesh, she's crazy bout animals) and when she did, aunties and relatives keep questioning her
'aiyah, why u choose this? no future... blah blah blah" ><

i mean, seriously...!? O_o
While I agree with your points regarding choosing career from personal interests; I don't think medicine, dentistry etc are over-rated in terms of job security. Yes there are many cons for these careers (which we have pretty much covered in this thread); but for job security not many jobs can top these professions, though I suppose you should make an exception for public servants in Malaysia. :P

[nickvl]

doctors are overated, imo...
and that is followed by pharmacy and dentistry (maybe engineering?) AND accountancy
mostly because these are 'safer' professional courses...

Very true. I am actually sort of guilty of it too. I actually thought of a Swatch Scholarship to study 2 years mechanical watchmaking but its so unheard of (i really have a thing for watches). My mum just said, 'up to you' n i just procrastinated until too late...so i settled for a 'safer' option...wish i had the guts...well, what's done is done. I just want to make the best of whatever comes next

[TheArtOfMedicine]

Define 'better'.

Neither will make a better doctor in my opinion, each lacks something that the other has.

Let's put it this way, if I were to suffer from an acute disease(appendicitis), I'd probably go for the one without bedside manner but good with his scalpel. If, however, I'm suffering from a chronic disease such as rheumatoid arthritis, I might opt for the guy who'd spend hours comforting me, but still, it doesn't feel right because I could potentially end up with the wrong prescription.(OK, all in all, if both were registered with the GMC or MMC, what I said would apply, in my case)

[nickvl]

I have a little doubt here. Let's say two bright students. One is really interested in medicine and he is willing to go as far as he could but lacks certain skills like bedside manner, rhetoric speaking when it comes to persuading patients to do what is best for them and etc. And the other one who never thought of medicine in his entire life but possess all the skills needed which the earlier does not have.

If both of them are to enrol in a medical school, which one of them do you think will be a better doctor when they graduate? the one who still struggle to be a doctor? or the one who will have no interest in treating patients?

Neither. Still,the first can develop skills over time n the latter may learn to love it. All boils down to attitude ...

[youngyew]

Very true. I am actually sort of guilty of it too. I actually thought of a Swatch Scholarship to study 2 years mechanical watchmaking but its so unheard of (i really have a thing for watches). My mum just said, 'up to you' n i just procrastinated until too late...so i settled for a 'safer' option...wish i had the guts...well, what's done is done. I just want to make the best of whatever comes next
Wow that's very interesting! Pardon the digression; but do you mind sharing some information about that scholarship? :)

I have a little doubt here. Let's say two bright students. One is really interested in medicine and he is willing to go as far as he could but lacks certain skills like bedside manner, rhetoric speaking when it comes to persuading patients to do what is best for them and etc. And the other one who never thought of medicine in his entire life but possess all the skills needed which the earlier does not have.

If both of them are to enrol in a medical school, which one of them do you think will be a better doctor when they graduate? the one who still struggle to be a doctor? or the one who will have no interest in treating patients?
If the first person could pick up those skills he was inadequate in, then he'd be fine.

If the second person could do his job responsibly and professionally, then he would be fine. Anyway "no interest in treating patients" is too vague a description. Mind elaborating on that?

[nickvl]

Wow that's very interesting! Pardon the digression; but do you mind sharing some information about that scholarship? :)

Uh, well not much to tell. I always had an interest in watches. Last year there was an article on Swatch offering scholarships to Malaysians. (I cut it out and kept it) Then this year, my dad gave me the advert for some kuok foundation scholarship but another tiny column caught my eye... Requirement : just have to be SPM leavers and have interest (easy,right?). There would be an interview i believe. If qualify, two years apprenticeship n then u start repairing mechanical watches n maybe eventually start your own brand. Then i think u can work for swatch company anywhere in the world.

[SapphireDragon]

Okay, I'm actually arising this topic because it has been hotly debated in forums like ReCom. The big question for students today, especially the so-called "bright, excellent, have more As than the number of clothes in their wardrobes" kinda people, is "Is Medicine the Path For Excellent Students?"

Sure, I know some students like Kheng and Weh Kiat who are really passionate to become doctors, to heal the wounded, to help the injured and to care for people. I respect your decisions and fully support your quests to noble deeds. But like any student who is deemed "excellent" out there in Malaysia, we are surely forced to mount this overwhelmingly huge boulder, which pressures us to take up the inevitable path of medicine.

At first, before applying for the JPA scholarship online, I was under intense pressure as if a magnet was pulling this helpless soul of mine mercilessly to the path that was deemed "right" in the eyes of all people. Yes, I was deeply troubled whether I should choose medicine or not. To venture into a career that is financially stable and respected or to plunge myself into the trenches of the unknown but likeable, however harrowingly deep it is? It was like the poem The Road Not Taken, where a traveller was forced to make a decision that is so simple yet it was the cornerstone of his life. I was that traveller, with the click of a mouse in the JPA application, I had the awesome power in my hands to choose a course that will no doubt change my life forever.

My parents, uncles, aunties and relatives were of course delighted with my results but they somehow never dictated which course I should make. They just gave their opinions, which degree of truth is vastly unknown, and gave the ultimate veto power to me. Of course I thought, this was my life. If I wanted to climb the through the blizzardy snow of the Himalayas, swim across the Pacific in shark infested waters or be a humans right activist, it was my choice to make. I am really happy my relatives supported me all the way: if you wanna be a marine biologist or take up History studies, its up to you, just don't forget to give angpow to our children when you get married. Haha, short and simple, but it meant the world to me.

Some people choose medicine because they truly want to help others. Some choose medicine because its what their parents want them to be. Some choose medicine because they have nothing else to choose and just because everyone is taking it. Some people thought that good results equals medicine only no more, no less. So tell me, are you person no, 1,2,3 or 4? I'm not saying medicine is not good, never has it came across my mind, but sometimes we need to take risks and there are actually many other rewarding and beautiful careers out there, brimming with sparkles, just waiting to be found and polished.

So here I am today, proud to have chose a course which I think I'm truly passionate in: either law or engineering. Would I regret this say 10, 15 years from now? No one really knows but I guess there's only one way to find out.

"20 years from now you’ll be more disappointed by the things you didn’t do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore, experience, discover"
Mark Twain

[Athersin]

Well, that is so much opinions posted by recomers,:P. anyway, just my 2cent worth here:

u want to be a doctor because u WANT to be a doctor... not cz of ur results / family pressure / financial purposes

the medical profession is a very honourable one.. the reason why doctors are under such scrutiny & being in the news for all the wrong reasons is because of people who became doctors for the wrong reasons..

doctors are people who help others in need, using their knowledge and expertise in the medical field...
they are not people who can earn a lot of money / have stable financial life / people will respect them / super duper cream of the cream of the cream of the nation...

if u enjoy relieving the pain & suffering of others, talking to people in need, working your a$$ off so that a stranger can sleep soundly at night,
then go ahead and be a doctor!

a doctors life should not be judged on how many cars / houses he owns.. or even the number of lives he has saved...
instead it should be the number or souls he/she has touched with kindness & compassion..

Cheers!!

[eve88]

Just a quick note : I'll elaborate later after class ...

About the definition of passion, I'm going to toss out what I think is workable

Passion is a level of interest in a subject where personal satisfaction derived from pursuing it outweighs most(if not all) possible external detriments.

[win-the-sin]

how about this kind of situation?

i have a fren who wanted to be doctor since she was 9 or 10..because of that passion,she joined st john..since then,she learnt about first aid(from learning about wounds, burns, CPR, etc)she even went for the highway duty during CNY,hari raya & deepavali..& of cz,there was once an accident nearby her station & she went to save them(& she did it-even doc in the hospital thanked her for her first aid tht prevent worst situation tht might happen)..i can see her joy,her passion,her happiness while telling me her story

BUT then again,she did not get an EXCELLENT result..well,there goes her dream..she took teaching now..

so,tell me..Is it or Should it be the path of a BRIGHT student ONLY?

[teddyen]

While I agree with your points regarding choosing career from personal interests; I don't think medicine, dentistry etc are over-rated in terms of job security. Yes there are many cons for these careers (which we have pretty much covered in this thread); but for job security not many jobs can top these professions, though I suppose you should make an exception for public servants in Malaysia. :P

lolx, i meant over-rated in general, not over-rated in terms of job security because yes, these are indeed the more secure professions.

and because of that, more people tend to choose medic, that goes along with the fame and expectations.
I took a-levels in taylors, pre-med classes, and i can say for sure that more than half of my classmates went for these three options, medic, pharmacy, dentistry. with one or two who went into business, even though they are smarter than me.

@<hidden>: that interesting, i never actually heard of a swatch scholarship before :D


doctors are people who help others in need, using their knowledge and expertise in the medical field...
they are not people who can earn a lot of money / have stable financial life / people will respect them / super duper cream of the cream of the cream of the nation...

if u enjoy relieving the pain & suffering of others, talking to people in need, working your a$$ off so that a stranger can sleep soundly at night,
then go ahead and be a doctor!

instead it should be the number or souls he/she has touched with kindness & compassion..


One of the reasons i always give on the reasons why i don't want to do medic. While i think my attitude is okay enough, i don't believe i have the passion enough to work so much for people's health, not the degree of kindness and compassion.

I've known a few people who became doctors, one besides doing his job as a doctor, has to do planning, draft and fight for proposals to be approve, etc (government hospital, of course) Two have to work late at night until 11.00pm, sometimes even up to 2, 3 am, doing operations, visiting patients in the middle of the night, this applies to doctors who work in private hospitals too, mostly specialist... and imagine them having a family.

how about this kind of situation?

i have a fren who wanted to be doctor since she was 9 or 10..because of that passion,she joined st john..since then,she learnt about first aid(from learning about wounds, burns, CPR, etc)she even went for the highway duty during CNY,hari raya & deepavali..& of cz,there was once an accident nearby her station & she went to save them(& she did it-even doc in the hospital thanked her for her first aid tht prevent worst situation tht might happen)..i can see her joy,her passion,her happiness while telling me her story

BUT then again,she did not get an EXCELLENT result..well,there goes her dream..she took teaching now..

so,tell me..Is it or Should it be the path of a BRIGHT student ONLY?

if your friend really has the drive, the road to doctor-ship does not end at your spm/stpm results... There are still many options available, albeit a bit less convenient.

[eve88]

I'm going to point this out : As long as the doctor is competent, his motivations are none of your concern. Same goes for medical students - as long as they are progressing at a rate which will enable them to achieve competency upon graduation, why they are doing it is irrelevant. The only relevant variable is the level of skill the person has.

Imagine someone was told : you will be awarded a billion dollars if you become a qualified doctor. Even if he doesn't have one whit of interest in medicine per se, in all likelyhood, he will achieve competency. Would you call that person a "bad doctor"? Just judging by the person's skills - you would not be able to tell.

Everyone seems to be of the opinion that 'passion' is paramount, especially for medicine. You may have a different definition of 'passion' as I do, but, if you go by my definition above, passion is neither necessary nor sufficient to become a competent doctor. (Necessary and sufficient used according to the definitions in stats)

All that is necessary for someone to be content with a job is that the satisfaction he derives from it outweighs the detriments. Satisfaction (and detriments) has internal and external components. Passion is derived from internal satisfaction - but you don't need to hit that level of commitment. All you need is for 'total satisfaction' to outweigh 'total detriments'.

Simplified :
Internal satisfaction (interest) + External perks (pay, social status, etc) > Internal dissatisfaction (boredom, apathy) + External detriments (stress, long hours, etc)

This holds for all jobs, not just medicine.

With medicine, you possibly have to possess a higher level of interest compared to other jobs because there are more external detriments. However, there is also substantial perks to the job -- if someone places more emphasis on pay, that may be enough to fulfill the conditions even with little interest in medicine.

Now, lets see what is sufficient to make a competent doctor. What do you need? Ability in the skills involved and the inclination to use those skills at a sufficiently high standard. The first part - raw ability - is the 'studies' side of it. (As an aside, things like empathy can be learned.) The second part - inclination - is similar to what i covered above. If the person is content with the job, he will be inclined to use his ability.

To be competent, it just comes down to being able to carry out a skill, and being willing to do so. *Why* the doctor is willing to use his skill is irrelevant to the patient (or the public), the important thing is that he is.

[Glassylicious]

I see the word passion being thrown about quite a lot in this thread. Just wondering, what is the meaning of "passion" in your mind? Is it a constant or a dependent variable?

Glassy's personal passion test:
1. Can you do a 9 to 5 day just doing nothing but that and be happy after a day's work?
2. Can you do MORE than a 9 to 5 day if need be and STILL be happy, or at least okay with it?

And yes, I agree with the rest that passion can be cultivated over time. And yes, you can be passionate about earning money as well. XD

While I agree with your points regarding choosing career from personal interests; I don't think medicine, dentistry etc are over-rated in terms of job security. Yes there are many cons for these careers (which we have pretty much covered in this thread); but for job security not many jobs can top these professions, though I suppose you should make an exception for public servants in Malaysia. :P

I think what he meant was that it is overrated in the sense that it isn't the "King of Jobs" that many students seem to think it is, so to speak. Sure, job security might be tops. But it certainly isn't easy money [at least not at first], and a senior specialist doctor still probably wouldn't earn as much as someone in the corporate field who's been working for the same amount of time, etc. Coupled with the fact that the working conditions in public hospitals in Malaysia leave much to be desired...you catch the drift.

It's overrated because while it pays off good money after some years of working [and even more so after you invest a few more years in learning to specialize], there are many other ways which you can ultimately reach the same paycheque size MINUS the working conditions and many challenges you have to endure. There are a lot of people who argue that "every job is difficult, doesn't matter if it's a doctor, lawyer or accountant", but I'm going to say that at least lawyers and accountants work a standard 9 to 5 day without needing to do any night shifts or being "on-call".

I know what I'm saying might garner some hate, considering how there are at least two doctors-to-be in this topic at the moment, but don't get me wrong, I'm not saying being a doctor is a sucky job. I'm saying there are some misconceptions about the job, thus leading to people thinking it's on the ultimate pedestal of career choices when it's clearly not.

how about this kind of situation?

i have a fren who wanted to be doctor since she was 9 or 10..because of that passion,she joined st john..since then,she learnt about first aid(from learning about wounds, burns, CPR, etc)she even went for the highway duty during CNY,hari raya & deepavali..& of cz,there was once an accident nearby her station & she went to save them(& she did it-even doc in the hospital thanked her for her first aid tht prevent worst situation tht might happen)..i can see her joy,her passion,her happiness while telling me her story

BUT then again,she did not get an EXCELLENT result..well,there goes her dream..she took teaching now..

so,tell me..Is it or Should it be the path of a BRIGHT student ONLY?

A common misconception is that the only way to become a doctor is to do Medicine.

It's not.

Your friend still can become a doctor [using the Biomed route, which, IIRC has lower academic requirements for admission], but it's going to take a few extra years.

I'm going to point this out : As long as the doctor is competent, his motivations are none of your concern. Same goes for medical students - as long as they are progressing at a rate which will enable them to achieve competency upon graduation, why they are doing it is irrelevant. The only relevant variable is the level of skill the person has.


You've got a very good point there.

But I guess what a lot of people [including myself] have been trying to say is that the wrong motivations DO influence competence. Here's an example. If a doctor having a clinic is doing it solely to earn big bucks, I can easily imagine him having like, "2-minute consultations" per patient just so he can see more patients, which will give him more pay. Giving a hasty diagnosis might be risky for the patient.

When you are working to achieve a different goal [not just to help patients and other noble objectives] you tend to work your way directly towards it and sacrifice other objectives in the process.

[Miracle_seed]

But I guess what a lot of people [including myself] have been trying to say is that the wrong motivations DO influence competence. Here's an example. If a doctor having a clinic is doing it solely to earn big bucks, I can easily imagine him having like, "2-minute consultations" per patient just so he can see more patients, which will give him more pay. Giving a hasty diagnosis might be risky for the patient.

When you are working to achieve a different goal [not just to help patients and other noble objectives] you tend to work your way directly towards it and sacrifice other objectives in the process.If the doctor does give hasty diagnosis because he wants to finish off the consultation fast, so that he can see more patients and earn more, I'm afraid he is too stupid (And I don't think there is such short-sighted doctor). He might well get more patients for a short period, but those patients are not going to return next time, he will soon have to close down his clinic. So, I don't think the doctors who are more money-minded will be a incompetent doctor, instead, most of them might worker harder, and be a better doctor so that they can have more patients. Yeah, they might be cool towards their patients, but many patients don't care as long as he is able to treat them.

[Glassylicious]

If the doctor does give hasty diagnosis because he wants to finish off the consultation fast, so that he can see more patients and earn more, I'm afraid he is too stupid (And I don't think there is such short-sighted doctor). He might well get more patients for a short period, but those patients are not going to return next time, he will soon have to close down his clinic. So, I don't think the doctors who are more money-minded will be a incompetent doctor, instead, most of them might worker harder, and be a better doctor so that they can have more patients. Yeah, they might be cool towards their patients, but many patients don't care as long as he is able to treat them.

We took my sister, who had a rash to a clinic owned by a doctor who was apparently a skin specialist. He wasn't seeing any patients at the moment, yet we had to wait at least 10 to 15 minutes before we were able to see him. Then, upon walking in, we noticed he looked sleepy.

He glanced at my sister's arm without touching it and said it was "just a rash". We asked him more questions about what could have caused it, and told him that it was a recurring problem and had been on for some time. We got no further information whatsoever from him. It was still "just a rash".

That clinic has been around for quite a number of years, and is still around. Incompetent doctors losing patients? Not necessarily. =/ Remember that demand will always outweigh supply when it comes to doctors at least.

[Athersin]

how about this kind of situation?

i have a fren who wanted to be doctor since she was 9 or 10..because of that passion,she joined st john..since then,she learnt about first aid(from learning about wounds, burns, CPR, etc)she even went for the highway duty during CNY,hari raya & deepavali..& of cz,there was once an accident nearby her station & she went to save them(& she did it-even doc in the hospital thanked her for her first aid tht prevent worst situation tht might happen)..i can see her joy,her passion,her happiness while telling me her story

BUT then again,she did not get an EXCELLENT result..well,there goes her dream..she took teaching now..

so,tell me..Is it or Should it be the path of a BRIGHT student ONLY?
This is not the right track to say that every bright students ought to take medicine. While most of my frens struggling hard to get medicine -the course that everyone ought to think that is very secured and guarantee a job and a future, i myself am going to think twice before applying for medicine.

Many people failed medicine because of the lack of competency and not because they are not dedicated enough, it is because of their learning startegies. interest and competency should be come from 2 different things.

[eve88]

You've got a very good point there.

But I guess what a lot of people [including myself] have been trying to say is that the wrong motivations DO influence competence. Here's an example. If a doctor having a clinic is doing it solely to earn big bucks, I can easily imagine him having like, "2-minute consultations" per patient just so he can see more patients, which will give him more pay. Giving a hasty diagnosis might be risky for the patient.

When you are working to achieve a different goal [not just to help patients and other noble objectives] you tend to work your way directly towards it and sacrifice other objectives in the process.

Mmmm.. the way for really big bucks is to be as brilliant as possible in your field, go into private practice, and then charge as high as the patient is willing to fork out... (ethical objections - are doctors required to treat everyone? or is doctor like any other tradesman -selling our services .. and if you can't afford it, tough.)

The situation you describe will work only if there is no alternative for the patients involved - but in developing countries like Malaysia, it is very likely.

So you do have a valid point.

The thing is, everyone seems to be fixated on the idea that motivation is the driving force of competence - which it is not. It influences it, yes, but "good motivation" doesn't necessarily lead to competence, nor "bad" motivation necessarily detract from it.

In an ideal world, all doctors would have the goal of helping patients. But, the situation being what it is now, to fulfil demand we need to accept doctors with all sorts of other goals - and only condemn them IF it affects competency, and not judge them solely on motivation.

[youngyew]

The way I boil down the whole issue is this:

1. As a society, we need to drive more people who are passionate, kind, friendly, intelligent, <insert positive adjectives here> into medicine compared to people who are in it as the "default" option, as is often the case in Malaysia. Just how that could be done remains open to discussion.

2. However, people who enter medicine without plenty of enthusiasm or passion are NOT to be belittled, discriminated, or even incriminated (which unfortunately is the sentiment shown in some posts here). It's one thing to say it's great to have overtly passionate doctors; it's quite another to say that it's therefore wrong for someone to enter medicine without overt "passion", whatever that means.

3. It's true that some people without sufficient integrity in the profession will turn out to be greedy, irresponsible doctors, examples of which were raised by some of the posts above. It's also probably true that lack of integrity is more commonly found among insufficiently passionate people. But that doesn't mean that all not-100%-passionate people will become irresponsible. If you incriminate not-100%-passionate people just because of its slight association with dishonest and irresponsible doctors, then you are being unfair to the other not-100%-passionate people who just want to make an honest living out of the service they provide.

The problem with integrity can only be approached via measures like constant surveillance and strict legal enforcement the offenders. Suggestion such as "not-100%-passionate people should not be allowed to do medicine" is simply impractical or even nonsensical. Like testing all guys with ear piercing for HIV, since ear piercing is associated with homosexuality, and homosexual men have higher risk for HIV.

I know what I'm saying might garner some hate, considering how there are at least two doctors-to-be in this topic at the moment, but don't get me wrong, I'm not saying being a doctor is a sucky job. I'm saying there are some misconceptions about the job, thus leading to people thinking it's on the ultimate pedestal of career choices when it's clearly not.
Of course I won't take offense; I agree with what you are saying. I would also gladly rebut many popular misconceptions such as "all doctors are smart" or "doctors are noble people". :P

[Miracle_seed]

We took my sister, who had a rash to a clinic owned by a doctor who was apparently a skin specialist. He wasn't seeing any patients at the moment, yet we had to wait at least 10 to 15 minutes before we were able to see him. Then, upon walking in, we noticed he looked sleepy.

He glanced at my sister's arm without touching it and said it was "just a rash". We asked him more questions about what could have caused it, and told him that it was a recurring problem and had been on for some time. We got no further information whatsoever from him. It was still "just a rash".

That clinic has been around for quite a number of years, and is still around. Incompetent doctors losing patients? Not necessarily. =/ Remember that demand will always outweigh supply when it comes to doctors at least.Since you mentioned there wasn't any patient at the moment, was the clinic rather empty? If it is, certainly it gives an impression on how good the doctor is, the clinic might be able to survive, perhaps because the doctor has other income, such as from stock market (I've seen a doctor of a private clinic watching the stock market on his computer during working hours, and yes, his clinic was rather empty), but I'm sure he is losing patients if he continues to behave that way. For sure, your family is not going to see the doctor again, right? :P

[youngyew]

Probably relevant to our conversation: http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/04/all-doctors-say-they-want-to-help.html
How do you know which doctors are the ones who can appropriately comfort patients (http://anesthesioboist.blogspot.com/2009/04/they-dont-screen-for-it-on-med-school.html) during times of suffering?

You don't.

Anesthesiologist Dr. T talks about how medical schools don't really screen which prospective physicians are "cavalry-ready," or not.

"People are either ready, willing, and able to be close to human suffering - to look at a weeping man, woman, or child in the eye, talk to people in distress, touch their wounds, embrace broken bodies and wounded souls, without recoiling - or they're not," she writes, "and they have to build up layers of arrogance, insensitivity, and cynicism in order to function. You're either afraid of it or willing to confront it face-to-face. There's no check-box for that on medical school applications."

Well said.

Although more medical schools are adding curriculum to "train" doctors' bedside manner, physicians either have empathy or they don't. It's not something that can be learned well.

Some of the comments there are very insightful too.

[Miracle_seed]

Some slight digression here, today a lecturer told us, if you want to make big bucks, become one of the specialists below:

Cardiologist
Diabetologist
Gastroenterologist

Considering the modern lifestyle, the patients are going to eat and drink (alcohol) all the way to your clinic. You'll see the money rolling in...

[youngyew]

Diabetologist isn't really a valid specialty name. Diabetic patients are usually managed by endocrine specialist (endocrinologist).

[music_freak28]

Medicine requires:

Compassion
Teamwork spirit
Politeness
Patience
Humble and good natured attitude
Willing to learn
Willing to help others
Hardworking
Passion and positive mind
Steady and focused

Do you have to be bright? Not really. It is a bonus to be bright, but if a student lack one of these, their medical school and housemanship life will be a living hell.

Not trying to say bright students should not pursue medicine. Just wanted to mention that Medicine is not the ONLY path for bright students. Bright students will suceed in any field if they continue their hardwork and maintain focus:)

[youngyew]

You definitely don't have to be very smart to do medicine, though being intelligent is definitely a bonus both in the medical student stage as well as real life practice. However, I would say that a degree of academic aptitude is quite a prerequisite for studying medicine. If you have trouble keeping up with the Malaysian secondary school syllabus, you will definitely struggle badly in medicine.

[duke23]

Some slight digression here, today a lecturer told us, if you want to make big bucks, become one of the specialists below:

Cardiologist
Diabetologist
Gastroenterologist

Considering the modern lifestyle, the patients are going to eat and drink (alcohol) all the way to your clinic. You'll see the money rolling in...



haha

if u want to make money in MALAYSIA just become a GP la..can hantam everything..no rules..no restrictions.prescribe steroids for every damn thing..and make money.In malaysia many gp's earn more than the average physicians..

[youngyew]

Diabetologist isn't really a valid specialty name. Diabetic patients are usually managed by endocrine specialist (endocrinologist).
Correction, I looked up online and there indeed is such thing as "diabetologist". Sorry about that. In real life I haven't come across people who profess as "diabetologist" though, diabetes is mostly managed by endocrinologists, and perhaps we can call an endocrinologist who deal mostly with diabetes as "diabetologist".

[Ling24]

I dun think medicine is the only path for every bright student. It is the adults who think the students who score well in spm or stpm should become medical students. they always persuade(you can even said as force) the students to become doctor....

[Miracle_seed]

Correction, I looked up online and there indeed is such thing as "diabetologist". Sorry about that. In real life I haven't come across people who profess as "diabetologist" though, diabetes is mostly managed by endocrinologists, and perhaps we can call an endocrinologist who deal mostly with diabetes as "diabetologist".
That was my first time to hear the term. I guess it's just a new sub-subspecialty?
haha

if u want to make money in MALAYSIA just become a GP la..can hantam everything..no rules..no restrictions.prescribe steroids for every damn thing..and make money.In malaysia many gp's earn more than the average physicians..I kinda agree with this, open a private clinic, and you can have 5-digit income easily, some may even earn 6 digits. But certainly, a specialist with his own clinic or working with private hospital would earn more than a GP.

Oh no, are we encouraging students to take up medicine because of money? :P

[eve88]

The bright ones will think about it.. and realize that the money isn't really worth it for the amount of effort put in.

The others.... well... this thread is talking about "bright" students isnt it? so everyone else deserves what they get =p

[youngyew]

Anyway, a humorous taste of medicine (yes you do need to know everything mentioned in the song, or at least a bit of everything :P)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bygOaphU4o

[eve88]

5 years to get to that point... so no point worrying yet.

Have you seen the drug list? They handed it to us 1st pharmacology lecture and it was scaaary.

[youngyew]

Ya the drug song. As well as the paracetamoxybendroneomycin song.

Anyway we have digressed :P

[eve88]

Ahh yes.

I'm just wondering : If bright students don't take medicine as a "default" thing to do, what other single course would take its place? and why? (or why should medicine be the default?)

Just not very likely that someone at 17 (post-SPM) knows what he/she is going to do....

[Miracle_seed]

Ahh yes.

I'm just wondering : If bright students don't take medicine as a "default" thing to do, what other single course would take its place? and why? (or why should medicine be the default?)

Just not very likely that someone at 17 (post-SPM) knows what he/she is going to do....Default for SPM leavers with bright results (for example 11A1 or more), when applying for scholarship:

Medicine
Dentistry
Pharmacy
Engineering
Law
Actuarial science

If you choose biotech, others will ask: Wow... your results so good, why would you choose Biotech then? (No offense here, just a common misconception). Or if you choose veterinary science, you're going to get even more shots at your head (Again, no offense here)

Default for STPM/Matriculation leavers:
Bio stream
Medicine
Dentistry
Pharmacy

Physics stream
All types of engineering

Account stream
Accountancy

Art stream
Law

Did I miss out any?

If you scored 4.0 and say that you want to study Nutritionist, you'll get the response like: Man, are you kidding me?

[eve88]

Triple science + math (A levels this is still common, STPM i've heard of ppl)

Are you condoning this list? =D

[Athersin]

very agree with that!
I am so stuck with my own choice of taking these 3 critical courses ( Pharm, dentistry, medicine)but i guess the job prospects should be the one that always comes into considerations.nutrionist , biotech do not have the brighter job prospects , thus most students dare not take the risk, besides they r not professional courses after all.

And yes, if NOT these critical courses , what else can a bright student choose?? Occupatinal therapy? physiotherapy? dietitician? biotech? Biochemstry. or pure physics and other sciences? Ha! that going to killed the dreams of those who wanna make a decent living with these 'RISKY" professions!
Unfortunately , the mindset of most bright students are like that! i am just showing the fact and reality..

[Miracle_seed]

Triple science + math (A levels this is still common, STPM i've heard of ppl)

Are you condoning this list? =DThis is simple, we need not to make a separate list for it, add up the Bio and Physics list, and there it is!

[eve88]

Miracle_seed : oh. wonder why i didnt think of that.

Its called the "default" list because the poor student really doesn't have any preferences - so the way to do it is by other priorities, I guess :

1) Income
2) Job/career stability
3) Possibilities for improvement/advancement
4) Social status

Any other significant points to this list?

[supergoh]

Well done for coming up with such a realistic view of every student,Miracle Seed.

Nobody is brave enough to take the risk to study biochemistry,pure physics as most of them end up becoming teachers in schools,at least this is the case in Malaysia .However,many who have won Nobel prizes are those who took pure science in university.

[Miracle_seed]

Miracle_seed : oh. wonder why i didnt think of that.

Its called the "default" list because the poor student really doesn't have any preferences - so the way to do it is by other priorities, I guess :

1) Income
2) Job/career stability
3) Possibilities for improvement/advancement
4) Social status

Any other significant points to this list?I think you have the main points.. Obviously, all the default courses are better, in term of the criteria above, compared to the science courses... Science courses can never beat them in these criteria, except may be (3).
Nobody is brave enough to take the risk to study biochemistry,pure physics as most of them end up becoming teachers in schools,at least this is the case in Malaysia .However,many who have won Nobel prizes are those who took pure science in university.Perhaps that is why we have yet to see a Nobel Prize winner from Malaysia?

Eastern society tends to have the mindset that stability is more important than dream/ambition... While I believe many of the Nobel Prize winners didn't really have stable life before they are famous (Except may be Nobel Peace Price)...

[Athersin]

Do u guys believe every courses, no matter what you study does not account for what u may do in future ? Actually, what is important is your dedications and passion to learn:)

[nickvl]

Do u guys believe every courses, no matter what you study does not account for what u may do in future ? Actually, what is important is your dedications and passion to learn:)

Agree 110% many ppl graduate from one field and end up doing entirely different in their career

[eve88]

Miracle_seed : But science may trump all in (5) Interest in subject.

However, they way kids are brought up ... they never learn how to *like* a subject, not in our school system. Its all "formula this" and "answering scheme that"

And then we turn around and blame them for not having any passion in anything. How?

[Miracle_seed]

Agree 110% many ppl graduate from one field and end up doing entirely different in their careerThat is the reason the default courses are preferable, because at least you'll be working in the field same as your course, with exception of engineering may be (There are way too many fields of engineering so it's hard to say all of the engineers are doing related job).
Miracle_seed : But science may trump all in (5) Interest in subject.

However, they way kids are brought up ... they never learn how to *like* a subject, not in our school system. Its all "formula this" and "answering scheme that"

And then we turn around and blame them for not having any passion in anything. How?
Yeah, but too bad (5) almost always comes last...

The education system have been teaching students to answer in default way, for many subjects you don't have to really good, as long as you answer in default way and you will score. That's where the name "Exam machine" comes...

I don't think we blame the students for not having passion, but we blame the system...

[bluez_aspic]

[[[[edited]]]]

[Athersin]

Great, it depicts the facts that: Do whatever u want for as long as happy , it worths!

This makes me wanna have my dream realised by being a tour guide !:P

[bluez_aspic]

Great, it depicts the facts that: Do whatever u want for as long as happy , it worths!

This makes me wanna have my dream realised by being a tour guide !:P
I think people need to work out their notion of "success" - is it about having a good career, nice car, nice house, annual holidays, nice clothes etc.? Of course, this is inextricably linked to the purpose and meaning of life =)

That's something which everyone has to decide for themselves. But the answers that are usually touted in Malaysian society tend to be monochromatic i.m.o., to wander off the beaten path requires courage.

Then again: 谋事在人，成事在天 ("man proposes, God disposes").

[eve88]

On the other hand, Malaysia is a developing country - how much resource do we have to spare for people to "wander off the beaten path" - bearing in mind that these are generally "non-essential" careers? But conversely, can we afford not to?