Would there be an excess of medical doctors in this country in the future?

[supergoh]

Recently, there are some signs that go to show that there would be an excess of doctors in the future.
Firstly, there are so many medical schools set up in this country to churn out doctors. With the establishment of University of Newcastle here, the number of medical schools in this country becomes about 20. Singapore with a population of about 5 million ,has only one university to produce medical doctors. Maybe it is very lucrative to produce doctors here. It is known that the Ministry of Health is still receiving application to set up medical schools here. No wonder Australia and Britain want to establish medical schools here.
Next year, with the opening up of AFTA, foreign doctors are allowed to practise in Malaysia. Indonesians are definitely more than happy to work as doctors here. They are willing to become illegal workers here, let alone practising as a doctor here.
Maybe in anticipation of an excess of doctors, the government is now beginning to promote medical tourism by setting up MHTC. We have already lagged behind Singapore and Thailand in this area. Maybe in the past ,the government did not want to exacerbate the shortage of doctors in the government hospitals as a consequence of promoting medical tourism.
I am not pouring cold water on those who are keen to study medicine , nor am I blowing the issue out of proportion. In fact, I also have a burning desire to study medicine .I just want to discuss something possible before it really happens.
Please correct me if necessary. Welcome your comments!

[henry_yew]

While it's true that there will be more and more doctors in the future, maybe we should look into the ratio of doctors to the general population of the country to determine whether or not there is an excessive amount of doctors in the country.

We mustn't forget that while we are producing more and more doctors, we are also losing some every year (due to death, retirement, etc.). At the same time, the population is also growing. Ideally speaking, I suppose the Ministry would like to maintain a certain ratio of doctors to the general population.

I don't know the exact figures, but say there are 26 million people in Malaysia now and the ratio of doctors to the general population is 1:500. That would mean there will be 52000 doctors in the country. (Bear in mind it's just a fictional figure. Estimations can be way out...) Now, if the population of the country grows by 5% compounded annually, in five years time the population will reach about 33 million people. If we need to maintain the ratio of 1:500, we'll need to have a total of 66400 doctors. That's an increase of about 14400 doctors in five years, or an average of 2880 doctors per year (meaning we need to produce this amount of medical graduates annually).

And judging by the rate of new doctors in Malaysia, will we have excess of doctors then? What's the rate of new doctors in Malaysia anyway? Anyone has the statistics for other necessary figures?

But in my opinion, judging by the pay doctors get in Malaysia and the type of nonsense they have to contend with from the Ministry of Health, I'd say there will never be an excess of doctors in Malaysia.

[supergoh]

Dear Henry Yew,

I have found some blogs for you.They may answer your questions.
http://draltang01.blogspot.com/2008/12/no-surplus-of-doctors-in-malaysia.html
http://educationmalaysia.blogspot.com/2006/03/its-raining-doctors.html

[starlemon]

While we are starting to contemplate the oversaturation of doctors in the hospital in future, why not we focus on churning out more qualified doctors?
All in all, quality is always outweighting quantity if you aim to increase the mortality rate of the human population.

[youngyew]

I am not familiar with the situation of medical practitioner excess, but I can tell you for sure that there definitely is no excess of good doctors around. In fact there are quite a number of mediocre ones out there. So if you are thinking of becoming a doctor and you have the calibre (academic and non-academic) to emerge above par, you should NOT worry about the excess.

[Miracle_seed]

Some doctors venture into administration field and seldom (or never) treat patients. At least till now, government hospitals still have no enough doctors, especially specialists.

[Boyz_Zoo]

It is highly unlikely that country will have too much doctors due to brain drain. Many doctors prefer to work outside the country because of the pay. Even many of of JPA scholars which include the medicine scholars don't actually come back to do work with the government. Instead, they disappear and run away. With this going on and on, it will seriously take a long for our country to have excess doctors.

[SapphireDragon]

Excess doctors? Then why are there still complaints that doctors are busy, 24 hour work, no time to rest, no social life? That's what my councellor told me. Or is he wrong? Or maybe this scenario only happens in government hospitals? And its true that there are only a few GOOD doctors. Those crappy students who take up medicine courses only because their parents told them to or because of the money, you guys need to think twice. We don't want medoicre and lousy and unmotivated doctors! We want GOOD doctors, the more the better!

[Glassylicious]

Excess doctors? Then why are there still complaints that doctors are busy, 24 hour work, no time to rest, no social life? That's what my councellor told me. Or is he wrong? Or maybe this scenario only happens in government hospitals? And its true that there are only a few GOOD doctors. Those crappy students who take up medicine courses only because their parents told them to or because of the money, you guys need to think twice. We don't want medoicre and lousy and unmotivated doctors! We want GOOD doctors, the more the better!

I think you might be missing the point here. The question here pertains to a possible scenario in the future which may or may not happen. The scenario your post described about busy doctors with no life refers to what is happening now, in the present.

[starlemon]

More doctors in future, filter the 'odd' one out,remaining the competent and qualified ones.

[music_freak28]

You have a point here since a lot of people are now looking at being doctors. But I doubt that future is near us. It is still a long way before the medical field becomes saturated. Take HKL for instance, the hospital is even busier than Maybank itself and one has to wait for an average of 1-2 hours maybe, just to get medical attention. Thus, I believe that the over saturation of doctors will not occur in the near future.

Plus, like henryyew said, people come and people go, so do doctors. Despite the various medical schools available now, even with some having compromised quality, not all can make it through because it is not easy at all. Oh don't get me wrong, I am not trying to undermind other courses or anything but from what I heard, med school is not an easy thing. Some may give up along the way, especially those who are forced by their parents. Some may not even practice medicine once they have graduated or some might give up during housemanship year or maybe later.

[youngyew]

Plus, like henryyew said, people come and people go, so do doctors. Despite the various medical schools available now, even with some having compromised quality, not all can make it through because it is not easy at all. Oh don't get me wrong, I am not trying to undermind other courses or anything but from what I heard, med school is not an easy thing. Some may give up along the way, especially those who are forced by their parents. Some may not even practice medicine once they have graduated or some might give up during housemanship year or maybe later.
This is quite true, but I doubt people who give up are of a sizable proportion. Medicine is expensive, and many people "persevered" in this career even though they are clearly unfit for the job.

[eve88]

An additional point about "brain drain" - a doctor's skills are transferable - as soon as they feel that they aren't needed/compensated for the job they are doing the option is always open to move overseas to just about anywhere in the world.

[henry_yew]

An additional point about "brain drain" - a doctor's skills are transferable - as soon as they feel that they aren't needed/compensated for the job they are doing the option is always open to move overseas to just about anywhere in the world.

I digress here, but the above point is also applicable to other jobs, such as engineers, lawyers, accountants, etc. etc. etc. :amuse

[supergoh]

Yes, it is true that doctors come and go.What if those come overwhelmingly exceed those go?

There is an interesting news.
[/URL][URL]http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2009/3/30/nation/3583671&sec=nation (http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2009/3/31/nation/3595292&sec=nation)

I am not familiar with the situation of medical practitioner excess, but I can tell you for sure that there definitely is no excess of good doctors around. In fact there are quite a number of mediocre ones out there. So if you are thinking of becoming a doctor and you have the calibre (academic and non-academic) to emerge above par, you should NOT worry about the excess.


Well said , youngyew. This is the answer I am looking for.

There may be an excess of medical doctors in this country in the future.But

There will always be a shortage of committed ,competent and compassionate medical doctors in the future.

[supergoh]

Just for your information.Mahsa University College(formerly a nursing college) has been recently "upgraded" to offer MBBS as well.

Just another interesting link.
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2009/3/31/nation/3595292&sec=nation

Of course,nothing is impossible in the future. Who would have predicted Pakatan Rakyat won an unprecedented victory in the last general elections?

[supergoh]

This is my very first thread.Every time I post a reply here ,the number of views(the act of reading,not opinions) increases remarkably.However,the number of replies here does not increase proportionately.

Back to the question,here is another interesting link
http://chedet.co.cc/chedetblog/2009/08/the-doctors.html

[supergoh]

One more interesting news.
http://medicine.com.my/wp/?p=8013

Why would the government reduce the duration of compulsory service? You make your own guess.

My advice to those prospective medical students,

Study internationally recognised medical degree in a renowned university.Be prepared to go overseas to make your mark in foreign countries.

[Young]

Here's my take on this issue:

I believe that there IS an excess of regular doctors with only an MBBS/MD as their sole qualification. As mentioned in the previous posts, the ease at which private institutions are able to set up medical schools is appalling. The number of Malaysians who opt for medical education overseas (mostly in Indonesia, India, Russia, etc) has also increased dramatically. I have an uncle who graduated 20 odd years ago and started his own clinic. During those days, business was excellent; he saw a good 100 patients a day. Today, he tells me that he's lucky to treat 15-20 daily; a testament to the oversupply of doctors.

However, I think Malaysia will still be suffering from a lack of medical specialists in many years to come. Entry into such training programs is extremely competitive, with only the best and most competent graduates admitted into such fellowships. Furthermore, the increase in fellowship positions isn't as stark as the production of fresh doctors.

[eve88]

Oh, good (at a personal point of view) =D Looking at the oversupply, means that i can stay away from Malaysia until my specialist qualifications... and then come back ... if i do come back.

What if those come overwhelmingly exceed those go?

Well, its not very likely this will happen, because most of the ones who have the choice (mmm... well, leaning towards the better qualified/motivated ones i guess) will look at the situation [oversupply --> low pay --> low further training prospects] and decide to leave. Singapore *is* just right next door. Or the overseas grads wont bother coming back.

On the other hand... those that have the ability to stay away are probably on average "better" than the ones who can't stay away....... thus maybe leading to a decline in quality.

Hopefully this will be offset by the numbers coming in, there's sure to be good ones that will stay in Malaysia.

However, I think Malaysia will still be suffering from a lack of medical specialists in many years to come.

Todays MO and HOs are tomorrows specialists... so oversupply will probably spillover into the tertiary care sector. Particularly if training slots are based on seniority, if you stay in the system long enough....

Also, how long will it be until the increased number of docs clamor for increased training spots?

[orthopod]

Here's my take on this issue:

I believe that there IS an excess of regular doctors with only an MBBS/MD as their sole qualification. As mentioned in the previous posts, the ease at which private institutions are able to set up medical schools is appalling. The number of Malaysians who opt for medical education overseas (mostly in Indonesia, India, Russia, etc) has also increased dramatically. I have an uncle who graduated 20 odd years ago and started his own clinic. During those days, business was excellent; he saw a good 100 patients a day. Today, he tells me that he's lucky to treat 15-20 daily; a testament to the oversupply of doctors.

However, I think Malaysia will still be suffering from a lack of medical specialists in many years to come. Entry into such training programs is extremely competitive, with only the best and most competent graduates admitted into such fellowships. Furthermore, the increase in fellowship positions isn't as stark as the production of fresh doctors.

well fellowships are for subspeciality training.Its quite easy to get a fellowship (locally or abroad) but gotta be a specialist first...welll yeah medicine in Malaysia is going down the drain...really badly and rapidly at that...cant imagine what is going to happen with the influx of all the ukrainian russian doctors..(well lets leave india out of the equation okay?,i do think their doctors are pretty decent..so many of them in the Uk and US serving as physicians..in fact the USMLE pass mark has been inflated by the sheer number of Indian Graduates who ace the exam..)

Anyway we'll leave the gov to figure out its problems.Personally I have a few cousins who are on JPA scholarship to read medicine abroad(UK,NZ)..therefore the more doctors in Malaysia ,the better it is for them..lol

[youngyew]

I am not sure how accurate USMLE score reflects one's true clinical competence. I have heard that there is now a flourishing USMLE "intensive course" industry that kind of serve the same purpose as the tuition centres in our country. I can't deny that there are bound to be many who are excellent both in exams and real practice, but I am interested to know how many people are exam experts but aren't as good in practice.

[Miracle_seed]

Here's my take on this issue:

I believe that there IS an excess of regular doctors with only an MBBS/MD as their sole qualification. As mentioned in the previous posts, the ease at which private institutions are able to set up medical schools is appalling. The number of Malaysians who opt for medical education overseas (mostly in Indonesia, India, Russia, etc) has also increased dramatically. I have an uncle who graduated 20 odd years ago and started his own clinic. During those days, business was excellent; he saw a good 100 patients a day. Today, he tells me that he's lucky to treat 15-20 daily; a testament to the oversupply of doctors.

However, I think Malaysia will still be suffering from a lack of medical specialists in many years to come. Entry into such training programs is extremely competitive, with only the best and most competent graduates admitted into such fellowships. Furthermore, the increase in fellowship positions isn't as stark as the production of fresh doctors.If there is really an excess of doctors, why public still have to wait for hours just for consultation in government hospital? Sort of imbalance, huh?
Well, its not very likely this will happen, because most of the ones who have the choice (mmm... well, leaning towards the better qualified/motivated ones i guess) will look at the situation [oversupply --> low pay --> low further training prospects] and decide to leave. Singapore *is* just right next door. Or the overseas grads wont bother coming back.

On the other hand... those that have the ability to stay away are probably on average "better" than the ones who can't stay away....... thus maybe leading to a decline in quality.

Hopefully this will be offset by the numbers coming in, there's sure to be good ones that will stay in Malaysia.



Todays MO and HOs are tomorrows specialists... so oversupply will probably spillover into the tertiary care sector. Particularly if training slots are based on seniority, if you stay in the system long enough....

Also, how long will it be until the increased number of docs clamor for increased training spots?I think it should be [oversupply --> decreased pay in private sector (more specific, less income from own clinic)]. There will still be shortage of doctors in government sector, if the working condition does not improve.

By the way, instead of overproduction of MBBS/MD, more money should be spent to train more specialists, or even sub-specialists. There are still limited fields of specialty available in the country.

[supergoh]

If there is really an excess of doctors, why public still have to wait for hours just for consultation in government hospital? Sort of imbalance, huh?

Dear Miracle_Seed, an excess of doctors would happen in the near future, not now.

In my opinion, the government should reserve vacancies in government hospitals for JPA scholars(both local and overseas),followed by those graduated from public medical schools.

[Young]

In my opinion, the government should reserve vacancies in government hospitals for JPA scholars(both local and overseas),followed by those graduated from public medical schools.

That's a very interesting suggestion. I assume that would be a move in response to the growing number of medical graduates? If so, I humbly disagree.

Although such an act is common in countries like the UK and Australia, it cannot be implemented as smoothly in Malaysia because we have a very ingrained culture of privately sending students to medical schools overseas. Such a mentality is hard to change and you can imagine the public outcry when graduates from top medical schools worldwide are denied places in our local hospitals.

A better suggestion to solve the problem would be to simply limit the supply of medical graduates. How? Just slash off a few dodgy medical schools from the charter of recognized institutions. For heavens sake, we recognize 2X the number of medical schools Singapore does.. :notrust

Or, we could follow Singapore's method of extending the period of conditional registration for overseas trained doctors.

We could also do with a standardized exam where every medical graduate, regardless of institution, has to sit for before being allocated a seat for housemanship. That way, only the best graduates will make it into practice. However, I admit, the last suggestion would probably end up doing more harm than good if it became a political too.. Just look at that law exam Malaysia used to have.

[vseehua]

If there is really an excess of doctors, why public still have to wait for hours just for consultation in government hospital? Sort of imbalance, huh?

People will have to wait for hours just for consultation in the government hospital, no matter how many doctors are working there. There are many more limiting factors besides the numbers of doctors present. As present, the doctors to patient ratio in current government hospitals are way lower than many of the private hospitals. But facilities can only support so much before space, and facilities in a hospital runs out.

In Germany and the UK, a national health policy is implemented where people can always get inexpensive treatment in every health care facility, government or not. If a condition is covered under the scheme, people can opt to get compensated for their treatment. This helps to spread the health resources far and wide, instead of it concentrating at any one place like in the hospitals in Malaysia. I think the situation in Malaysia can be much better if such a policy is implemented here as well.

[supergoh]

That's a very interesting suggestion. I assume that would be a move in response to the growing number of medical graduates? If so, I humbly disagree.

Although such an act is common in countries like the UK and Australia, it cannot be implemented as smoothly in Malaysia because we have a very ingrained culture of privately sending students to medical schools overseas. Such a mentality is hard to change and you can imagine the public outcry when graduates from top medical schools worldwide are denied places in our local hospitals.

A better suggestion to solve the problem would be to simply limit the supply of medical graduates. How? Just slash off a few dodgy medical schools from the charter of recognized institutions. For heavens sake, we recognize 2X the number of medical schools Singapore does.. :notrust

Or, we could follow Singapore's method of extending the period of conditional registration for overseas trained doctors.

We could also do with a standardized exam where every medical graduate, regardless of institution, has to sit for before being allocated a seat for housemanship. That way, only the best graduates will make it into practice. However, I admit, the last suggestion would probably end up doing more harm than good if it became a political too.. Just look at that law exam Malaysia used to have.

Dear Young , you are right.

I just simply considered taxpayers's money spent to sponsor JPA scholars and to subsidize tuition fee in public medical schools.And I now know that suggestion is not viable.

Malaysians deserve the best healthcare service.Hence, medical students from top medical schools should always be welcomed to come back to serve the country.In fact, medical students from top medical schools have the luxury or privilege to work in foreign countries.

However, some medical students,especially those studying in Russia are not so fortunate.I believe they cannot work in countries other than Malaysia .Even Russians would hesitate to allow those Malaysians to work in Russia.These medical students as well as the government is to blame .In their(or sometimes their parents' )craze for a doctor title,these medical students do not care about the quality of medical schools.They just want to become doctors by hook or by crook.They simply believe any medical degree recognized by the government.

In the world,Malaysian government may be the only and only country which highly recognizes Russian and Indonesian medical degrees to the extent of sponsoring students to study there.

[supergoh]

Dear Miracle Seed,

Maybe you are still not fully convinced that there would be an excess of doctors in Malaysia in the future.

Are you an IMU student?

There is a paper published by Medical Teacher
Medical Education in Malaysia
2008, Vol. 30, No. 2, Pages 119-123
Dr.Victor K. E. Lim.

[tehjiao]

I believe that in future there will be excess of doctors in Malaysia, however i doubt those excess in amount wouldn't mean improvement of the quality. My hospital recruit more than 20 houseman (graduated from Russia/Ukrane) in a month and they were just terrible. Poor knowledge(1 HO claim that Pyridoxine is a type of antibiotic as he always observe this drug is prescribed for TB patient while my Nurse can answer that this is a vitamin, So ?Doctor worse than a Nurse)), NO clinical skill (as they are not allow to touch any Rusian Patient during training, OMG),what they've done during the 5 years training? God only know and our government still recognize their degree, OMG ...... It's our government policy fault if there is excess of mediocre/incapable doctors in futre as our politician/ministry officer don't really care about Quality Control of doctors. In future, those incapable doctors may only can survive in government hospital as they are not competent enough to work in private sector, I'm really worry about our GH patients in future. Sadly, i don think our politician care for the time being, do u agree, my MOH Minister, Mr Liow?

[orthopod]

i feel scared for my relatives who were ex civil servants who seek treatment at gov hospitals

[vseehua]

I believe that in future there will be excess of doctors in Malaysia, however i doubt those excess in amount wouldn't mean improvement of the quality. My hospital recruit more than 20 houseman (graduated from Russia/Ukrane) in a month and they were just terrible. Poor knowledge(1 HO claim that Pyridoxine is a type of antibiotic as he always observe this drug is prescribed for TB patient while my Nurse can answer that this is a vitamin, So ?Doctor worse than a Nurse)), NO clinical skill (as they are not allow to touch any Rusian Patient during training, OMG),what they've done during the 5 years training? God only know and our government still recognize their degree, OMG ...... It's our government policy fault if there is excess of mediocre/incapable doctors in futre as our politician/ministry officer don't really care about Quality Control of doctors. In future, those incapable doctors may only can survive in government hospital as they are not competent enough to work in private sector, I'm really worry about our GH patients in future. Sadly, i don think our politician care for the time being, do u agree, my MOH Minister, Mr Liow?I believe the MMC did blacklist one of the more prominent medical university in Ukraine a few years ago. However, this caused a huge outrage as many parents in Malaysia sent their children over there to study, and hence the retraction of the ban.

[supergoh]

I believe that in future there will be excess of doctors in Malaysia, however i doubt those excess in amount wouldn't mean improvement of the quality. My hospital recruit more than 20 houseman (graduated from Russia/Ukrane) in a month and they were just terrible. Poor knowledge(1 HO claim that Pyridoxine is a type of antibiotic as he always observe this drug is prescribed for TB patient while my Nurse can answer that this is a vitamin, So ?Doctor worse than a Nurse)), NO clinical skill (as they are not allow to touch any Rusian Patient during training, OMG),what they've done during the 5 years training? God only know and our government still recognize their degree, OMG ...... It's our government policy fault if there is excess of mediocre/incapable doctors in futre as our politician/ministry officer don't really care about Quality Control of doctors. In future, those incapable doctors may only can survive in government hospital as they are not competent enough to work in private sector, I'm really worry about our GH patients in future. Sadly, i don think our politician care for the time being, do u agree, my MOH Minister, Mr Liow?

Dear tehjiao,
He is now busy fighting for the presidency of Malaysian Clowns Association.

Please strictly supervise these Russian/Ukraine medical graduates.Maybe one day the government would consider de-recognising Russian/Ukraine medical degree if you all make complaints loud and clear.

Actually , a few years ago,Malaysian Government started to recognize some Czech Republic medical degree.If you study medicine in Czech language ,the tuition fee is FREE OF CHARGE.It is actually another form of medical scholarship.But I am still quite hesitant to put it under Recom Education section.We do not know the quality of medical graduates concerned yet.

I am afraid that Malaysian students would form the largest population of international students in Czech Republic if I promote this "scholarship". :P

Check this website
http://www.cuni.cz/UK-1601.html

[orthopod]

doctors from the czech republic and poland are highly regarded upon by many countries..So i dont think it will be an issue..lets put it this way..the quality of local graduates are also "suspect"..supergoh.which med school are you from?you seem to have very strong opinions..and tehjiao..even ur nurse?..what are u?somekind of super uber sub specialist HOD?if we'd like to put our subordinates in order..treat them with respect first..yes they might have issues..but i realize and have heard this time and time again..local graduates treat foreign grads rather badly..especially if they are from the UK...just to proof that they are more superior..as a result these graduates don't even bother going back to serve..my sister went back to malaysia to do an elective.and she was asked to perform an abdominal exam...and the manner in which she was asked..was inappropriate.."lets see how they do an abdominal exam in london"...wth seriously.its tainted with sarcasm..

[supergoh]

doctors from the czech republic and poland are highly regarded upon by many countries..So i dont think it will be an issue..lets put it this way..the quality of local graduates are also "suspect"..supergoh.which med school are you from?you seem to have very strong opinions..and tehjiao..even ur nurse?..what are u?somekind of super uber sub specialist HOD?if we'd like to put our subordinates in order..treat them with respect first..yes they might have issues..but i realize and have heard this time and time again..local graduates treat foreign grads rather badly..especially if they are from the UK...just to proof that they are more superior..as a result these graduates don't even bother going back to serve..my sister went back to malaysia to do an elective.and she was asked to perform an abdominal exam...and the manner in which she was asked..was inappropriate.."lets see how they do an abdominal exam in london"...wth seriously.its tainted with sarcasm..

Dear Orthopod,

You seem to be very angry with me.In my first post , I have stated very clearly that I have not entered medical school yet.

In your post "Flooding of Malaysian Hospitals With unqualified /Underperforming Housemen from Ukrain ",I even said that those local graduates are just "sour grapes" and hence are quite jealous of UK graduates.Hence, I do not have a prejudiced attitude towards foreign grads.

Of course,local graduates are not only " suspects" , but are actually very unreliable.
Check this website
http://medicine.com.my/wp/?p=613&cp=1#comments

Anyway,I apologize if I really hurt your feeling in one way or another.

[wyeth_10]

well, i think there would be excess. Since, there are SO MANY medical colleges setting up; like a surge of them coming up. Its like, suddenly one day,there'd be this new college up thats offering medical courses from god knows where. I won't name any, but even when driving on highway or roads, there'd be advertisements bout these medical colleges..all locals, 1st time heard. Its just crazy. I'd never know it was that easy to just apply license to open and start a medical college. ahaha~

[Miracle_seed]

Dear Miracle Seed,

Maybe you are still not fully convinced that there would be an excess of doctors in Malaysia in the future.

Are you an IMU student?

There is a paper published by Medical Teacher
Medical Education in Malaysia
2008, Vol. 30, No. 2, Pages 119-123
Dr.Victor K. E. Lim.I'm not student of IMU, mind to share any link to the full article cited above? I don't seem to find any online, without subscribing.

[supergoh]

I'm not student of IMU, mind to share any link to the full article cited above? I don't seem to find any online, without subscribing.

Due to copyright issue, I think you really need to fork out money to buy the article.

[tehjiao]

Oversea trained doctors are not inferior to local trained, this is what I always emphasis. However, the training system is different and those trained oversea may not adapt well when they come back and join our health care service. I also disagree that UK/Ireland trained doctors are superior than locals. Malaysia trained doctors know how to treat local patients' problems/illness as you won't have chance to treat/learn Malaria/Dengue/Typhoid and other clinical skill which is essential locally (may not be practical in oversea eg. UK/US/Japan though). If anyone believe that oversea is always better, I would say that it's just bias.

[youngyew]

Tehjiao, sorry to be harsh but you didn't seem to answer or comment on orthopod's remark. While the way she pointed it out is quite emotional, I do agree that the nit-picking behavior i have heard is not very healthy at all. It's one thing to criticise housemen who don't even know ABC, it's quite another to try to bolster one's own superiority complex by picking on minor details of an examination. I'm not saying that all local doctors do that, but I have also heard a few anecdotes that are of similar nature to what orthopod described above. It's indeed quite upsetting to hear about the hostile attitudes displayed by some doctors.

[orthopod]

Oversea trained doctors are not inferior to local trained, this is what I always emphasis. However, the training system is different and those trained oversea may not adapt well when they come back and join our health care service. I also disagree that UK/Ireland trained doctors are superior than locals. Malaysia trained doctors know how to treat local patients' problems/illness as you won't have chance to treat/learn Malaria/Dengue/Typhoid and other clinical skill which is essential locally (may not be practical in oversea eg. UK/US/Japan though). If anyone believe that oversea is always better, I would say that it's just bias.

FYI..doctors from this part of the world always go for electives to the developing world..so many have seen malaria/dengue/typhoid first hand
Locally trained doctors are pretty sucky in communication skills too..

FYI..doctors from this part of the world always go for electives to the developing world..so many have seen malaria/dengue/typhoid first hand
Locally trained doctors are pretty sucky in communication skills too..

btw im not a female..

[HetufChang]

nice thread. :D

[frankchong]

I am not a medical doctor, eventhough I have a number of close friends who are. I want to share a few thoughts with you here, which concerns me a lot and hope you too.

1. Politics in Malaysia in more concern with wealth distribution than wealth creation. Its education system is preoccupied with training student for public section jobs of the past, as it was in the colonial days. In the 70s and 80s there were enough places in the public sector for the bumis and some other highly selected students to keep them employed in public sector. Today it is no longer the case except may be in medicine.

2. Students and parents gravitate towards professions that they believe offer better prospects, and an education system that gives a lot of As, you end up with many "top students". Rather than going for quality, the easier out is for the politicians to increase the enrolment. They have done it to computer science, engineering and now medicine, of course they have done it to other professions much earlier.

3. Take computer science as an example, in USA, India and China computer science and EE do attract many of the best students, with these talent, we can create the best products and technology. There are many companies with thousands of engineers. We need engineers and scientists who can do the seminal work and a lot more to implement them in a large scale. In you look at Malaysia, there are many computer science graduates, many of their skill levels are low and we do not have the leaders to lead the rest, creating job. Many are unemployed, and now it is hard to attract the best talent into the field. During my time, there was a core group of talented students wanting to do EE/CS eventhough we had the choice to choose any other profession if we decided to do so, based on our results etc. If you can not attract the best talent into a field, you are not going to be the leader in that field. If you look around, it is happening in other professions, but at a different pace.

4. The really good ones will find their way out of these mess, but it could be painful for many.

5. A lot of the planning and discussion is based on zero sum game, wealth or opportunity redistribution. I think the medical profession better think about creating an ecoystem to generate more wealth. Create medical centers that can offer the best services at competitive cost for patients from ASEAN, China and the rest of the world. To do these you need some of the best doctors from around the world and a good team of support staff, and hopefully each will find the place he/she fits. If you have the best doctors to attract the patients, the chances is that there will be more opportunities for the other doctors too.

6. One may not need the best doctor, but it is important to have one around, in case you need one.

7. The medical profession still attract some of the best talents in Malaysia, please think carefully and see whether you all can work together to create the right ecosystem. The politicians are more interested in how to get elected, give the impressions that they know what they are doing, so that will do things to please the electorate, eventhough it may not be the right thing to do.


regards,
Frank

Post edited for clarity. Next time, put some spaces between bullet points so that it is easier to read, ok?
*seehua~

[wyeth_10]

I think it doesn't matter whether its locally trained or overseas trained doctors, but its the quality of training received in the college during their studies. Some medical unis overseas may give good training, some may not, like the eg. of the ukraine one. Even in msia, there were some med school whos teaching standards is well below international standards [best not to mention names]. Also, the bias treatment received by MO posted in General hospital...its kinda normal. This is no new scenario. The seniors will always pick on the juniors. My lecturer, told us that when he was doing his posting in goverment hospital, his housemanship time, he was treated like a dog :amazed. Scary!! Of course this does not occur to ALL of new doctors...just to point out there such things had,is and might happen to those who are in this line of field.

[supergoh]

Even in msia, there were some med school whos teaching standards is well below international standards [best not to mention names].

Dear wyeth,

You are most welcomed to mention the names of the medical schools concerned.Give any example or/and evidence to support your statement.

By doing so,you may help prevent some prospective medical students from wasting their money and time in the medical schools concerned.

All prospective medical students need to be sensible ,open minded and mature enough to compare the quality of medical schools.

Let them make their own judgement over your statement.

[wyeth_10]

I daren't mention any names as there is no hardproof evidence. Also it may incur some legal problems, since this is already on a public forum.:notrust

However an example would be saying if i talked with some doctors who graduated from these med. unis and they themselves admit that if the uni did not "help" them, they would not have passed off being doctors. However, of course this is only an "under-the blanket" thing.

"All prospective medical students need to be sensible ,open minded and mature enough to compare the quality of medical schools."-supergoh

Like you said, those who wants to apply to medical schools would do their own thorough research of that faculty and ask the students who are already in the about their experiences. And it is also the individuals responsibility to improve themselves and learn the skill of being a proper doctor, regardless of how crappy the institution teaches them.

[louis8_8wang]

Eventhough the number of doctors in Malaysia is increasing this few years, there are getting more and more diseases outbreak and pandemic too. Hence, there is no doubt that the demand of doctors is still relatively high. I agree with Frank that Malaysia requires more leader and pro in this field to trigger the improvement, and to catch up the steps of the others.
What I worry is the outbreak of unknown deseases.

In addition, there is no doubt that the decrease of the ratio of doctors to patients will indirectly increase the quality of service of hospitals. Above all, delaying of the treatment can be avoided, and there is always someone back-up the others. Everything is foolproof.
Anyway, for your information, there is an increase of students applied for pharmacy instead of Medic last year in PSD Scholarship Application. I also heard that the requirement to enter pharmacy is higher than Medic, but i wonder if the information is reliable.

[supergoh]

Eventhough the number of doctors in Malaysia is increasing this few years, there are getting more and more diseases outbreak and pandemic too. Hence, there is no doubt that the demand of doctors is still relatively high. I agree with Frank that Malaysia requires more leader and pro in this field to trigger the improvement, and to catch up the steps of the others.
What I worry is the outbreak of unknown deseases.

In addition, there is no doubt that the decrease of the ratio of doctors to patients will indirectly increase the quality of service of hospitals. Above all, delaying of the treatment can be avoided, and there is always someone back-up the others. Everything is foolproof.
Anyway, for your information, there is an increase of students applied for pharmacy instead of Medic last year in PSD Scholarship Application. I also heard that the requirement to enter pharmacy is higher than Medic, but i wonder if the information is reliable.

Dear louis8_8wang,

Maybe you can buy this article published by Medical Teacher

Medical Education in Malaysia
2008, Vol. 30, No. 2, Pages 119-123
Dr.Victor K. E. Lim.

The solution to outbreak of unknown diseases is education, enforcement and sometimes vaccination, not necessarily getting more doctors. Sometimes, it is more practical to get more nurses and pharmacists than doctors.

[louis8_8wang]

Dear louis8_8wang,

it is more practical to get more nurses and pharmacists than doctors.

That's very true that we need more nurses and pharmacists, so are doctors. It is just my opinion. Even the number of doctors is in excess,t here is no drawback to have competition.

[youngyew]

What is this unknown disease in Malaysia? Can someone tell me more about it? I must be missing something because I don't remember reading about them in medicine or other blogs. :(

[louis8_8wang]

Erm...sorry ya, what I mean is we might face the outbreak of disease which we don't have any record data before anytime.

[vseehua]

Erm...sorry ya, what I mean is we might face the outbreak of disease which we don't have any record data before anytime.
Any solid proof on this claim?

[louis8_8wang]

U mean future proof?

[frankchong]

One can get sick from a variety of reasons, life style, diet (environment), bacteria and viruses.
Bacteria and virus do not evolve spontaneously, however, it can mutate and jump from species to species (Napa, Swine Flu, SARS? etc). However, a big factor today and in the future is the impact of high people mobility on the diffusion rate of these diseases, (take a look at SARS and Swine Flu), an out break in one place can spread over large areas very quickly. In the past, these outbreaks are localized and the rest of the world hardly knows about it. One should not discount the possibility of carriers from one population group to another either,as was happening in the spread of old world diseases to the new world in the past. Encroachment of animal habitat brings new interaction dynamics between human and other species giving rise to new opportunities for disease to jump from one species to another (Napa).
We are seeing a lot more metabolic and life style related sickness (e.g. diabetics) today than in the past. Genetically we are programmed for a life style in the past! We also stress our body differently too and it would fail in different modes, longer life expectancy will bring up more age related problems. New solutions like hormone therapy could lead to other side effects! We call these new diseases?
Environmental degradation, lead poisoning occur recently in a few villages in China where car batteries are recycled. When I was growing up in East Malaysia, the rivers, creeks were full of fish, but today you could hardly find any in many rivers and creeks. When we had made it hard for the fish to survive in the creeks, what does it mean to the kids swimming in the creek?

There are medical problems in Malaysia today, however, there will be medical problems that Malaysians will face in the future with higher standard of living and changing world. You can see some of these problems now in the more developed countries.
If your are into improving health/life expectancy of the population, health planning in terms of clean water, diet, exercise etc will go a long way. Life expectancy is not necessary correlated with wealth (there is a UN study of life expectancy in different countries). Fire preventions could reduce the number fires, but then we may not need as many fire fighters!

Frank

[youngyew]

Well said Frank, I agree with you.

Bacteria and virus do not evolve spontaneously, however, it can mutate and jump from species to species (Napa, Swine Flu, SARS? etc).
Actually mutation is one of the key to micro-organism's evolution, apart from natural selection.

[eve88]

I'm agreeing with Frank -

IMO we should be more concerned with the chronic illnesses (hypertension, diabetes, obesity etc) instead of a future unknown infectious disease.

We know there will definitely be an increase in chronic illnesses - especially heart disease - if the trends of increased food intake and reduced physical exertion continue.

Also, increasing life expectancy brings along corresponding illnesses - eg cancer, osteoporosis, dementia etc that the health care system needs to be geared to cope with.

With acute infectious diseases, the costs of treatment are generally cheaper than with chronic - if only because of shorter intervention periods- while with chronic diseases drug interventions need to be taken for years-decades.
-------------

Though on the other hand, bacteria are becoming increasingly antibiotic resistant - there are already cases (anecdotes) of patients who don't respond to *any* antibiotic ... so if in the future as drug treatments get increasingly useless against these bugs there may be a resurgence of acute illnesses in the developed world. (this of course is pure conjecture)

[youngyew]

Though on the other hand, bacteria are becoming increasingly antibiotic resistant - there are already cases (anecdotes) of patients who don't respond to *any* antibiotic ... so if in the future as drug treatments get increasingly useless against these bugs there may be a resurgence of acute illnesses in the developed world. (this of course is pure conjecture)
There are always people who don't respond to antibiotics when they have infection, in fact being unresponsive to antibiotics is often the reason people with leukemia, AIDS etc die in the end. But yeah antibiotic-resistant strains of bacteria is the main focus of infectious disease field, and the rampant abuse of wide-spectrum antibiotics in human AND animals is a major cause for this. In fact there are way more antibiotics in animals than in humans.

[eve88]

What i was thinking of was a particular lecture - where we were shown a lab result slip of blood culture of bacteria taken from a patient - there was about 8 (i think 3-4 were broad spectrum, the most potent antibotics available) antibiotics on the list and all was indicated not susceptible - ie the bacteria on culture was resistant to all the antibiotics available to the hospital. (I think it was based on disc-diffusion testing, but not too clear on the details....)

[frankchong]

Whatever we do, we have to be forward looking, anticipate what challenges we are going to face, so that we are prepared. New crisis will give rise to new opportunities, too often people look at the past and plan based on the past. You (youngyew, eve88 and others) have to plan for your future that is many years ahead of you. We touch on a number of problams here, and each has a different root cause and hence different treatment and method of intervention. You have to be reasonably good in a lot of things and if you are very good in at least one of them, you will do very well.

Antibiotic resistant is a big concern, often, antibiotic is indiscriminately used in farms and at times human. High density farming, including fish farming makes the spread of disease from one animal to the next much easier. Similar to taking public transport in USA where most of the bus is empty and in China where the bus is loaded, the spread of say SARS/H1N1 etc is much faster in the case of China, unless strict quarantine/procedures are taken to break down the communication pathway. Farmers (and some times doctors/patients) take the easy way out for short term gain and often over use the antibiotics.

I would not say developing a way to manage infectious disease is less important, given the high mobility and unbaniztion rate. Let's take a look at some specific cases, in China, there are 3 cluster cities underdevelopment, (Pearl River Delta, Yangtze River Delta, Beijing/Tienjin area), each of these have more people than Malaysia, Singapore and Australia combined. It will be link by subways, intercity rails and high speed trans (350km/hr) to other cities -- a feeder system of a few hundred million people. If there is a major infectious disease outbreak in one of these areas, it could get out of control in no time! (Subway/highspeed trains run at 5~10 minute intervals!).


On betabolic/Life style related sickness:
You may want to look at the investor presentation by Novo Nordisk, the major diabetic drug manufacturer in the World.

http://www.novonordisk.com/images/investors/investor_presentations/2009/Q3_2009_Roadshow_presentation.pdf

Diabetes prevalence in China,
2% rural towns
?4% small/medium cities
?6% large cities
?Up to 10% in Beijing and Shanghai

and the number is growing. The impact of diet and life style changes are tremendous. It is a hugh opportunity for insulin manufacturese, but to the society??? In USA, it is expected 1 in 3 babies born today will be diabetic, unless actions are taken.

AIDS, Heart diaease etc, each has different problems and opportunities. Also, over the years, I am seeing hip replacement surgenry getting more common (Titanium Hip Joints), it is still expensive but it works. Body parts replacement will be a new and growing industry. "Change of heart" will take on new meaning over time.

The world is full of problems/opportunities, the challenge is how to turn these problems into opportunities.
regards,
Frank

[supergoh]

I just read from The Star which stated that Perak was going to build an international medical university next year.

I think maybe each state of Malaysia wants to have at least one medical college.

http://medicine.com.my/wp/?p=8122

I hope UTAR would not establish medical school unless it is confident of providing world class medical education.

[supergoh]

Asean Free Trade Area will be opened up tomorrow.Malaysian doctors will have to compete with foreign counterparts.

Happy New Year to everybody.

[chocomaniac]

Well, one of my dad's friends keeps complaining that there are too many interns till there are nothing much for them to do. Can see a lot of them loitering in the cafeteria swinging their legs.
In fact, there are 23 medical schools in Malaysia and it is predicted that in year 2015 the number of medical doctors will be in excess! Imagine everyone is a doctor! It will be like hell!!!

[supergoh]

Thank you for your information,chocomaniac.

Utar has just started to offer MBBS programme.It seems that prospective medical students have too many local medical schools to choose from.

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/1/15/nation/20100115204915&sec=nation

[supergoh]

Some interesting links

http://medicine.com.my/wp/?p=8226

http://hsudarren.wordpress.com/2009/11/24/a-doctor-too-many/

[Miracle_seed]

In a totally unrelated note, there is a way to 'decongest' the doctors in excess. Just place them in 1Malaysia clinics, if we have 4 in each clinic, we will have extra 200 places allocated then, a great way to utilise our doctors, right?

Okay, forget about it, it's sort of off-topic anyway.

[Young]

That would actually be feasible. Then again, I would suspect that the pay would be low in those clinics and I highly doubt that can attract the best doctors to work there.

[sugan]

let the young doctors serve the 1 malaysia clinic
________
HotFlBabe (http://camslivesexy.com/cam/HotFlBabe)

[supergoh]

Cut doctors' compulsory service to make it more attractive for doctors to practise in government hospitals? It sounds funny.

[/URL][URL]http://www.liowtionglai.com/English/ViewPressstatement.aspx?ID=254d7197-a5ce-46c4-ac06-0c6f8ea6eb25 (http://malaysia.news.yahoo.com/bnm/20100207/tts-liow-doctors-with-pix-993ba14.html)

[Miracle_seed]

I think there would be much more better excuse out there to shorten the compulsory service period, and seriously I can't figure out logic behind this suggestion.

[supergoh]

I think there would be much more better excuse out there to shorten the compulsory service period, and seriously I can't figure out logic behind this suggestion.

The answer may be directly in front of you all the time, that is ,the title of my thread.

At least ,the link below has the same opinion.
http://medicine.com.my/wp/?p=8305

[tehjiao]

come across this blog, can't agree more.
Let's share after the jump

http://hsudarren.wordpress.com/2010/03/23/a-doctor-too-many-ii/


Malaysia, a country with about 26 million populations, boosts of 24 medical schools now.

Just a few years ago, the number was less than 10. In fact, when my eldest son entered medical school 10 years back, i could count medical schools with my fingers. Now even with my toes and my fingers, I could not do so. Some of the names are so new that I, as a doctor, do not even know they exist until I did some research for this article.

The list is below:

Public universities:

• University of Malaya, Faculty of Medicine

•Universiti Kebangsaan Malaysia, Faculty of Medicine

• Universiti Sains Malaysia, School of Medical Sciences

• Universiti Putra Malaysia, Faculty of Medicine and Health Sciences

• Universiti Malaysia Sabah, School of Medicine

• Universiti Malaysia Sarawak, Faculty of Medicine and Health Sciences

• International Islamic University Malaysia, Kulliyyah of Medicine

• Universiti Teknologi MARA, Faculty of Medicine

• Universiti Sains Islam Malaysia, Faculty of Medicine & Health Sciences

• Universiti Darul Iman,Faculty of Medicine

Private Universities and Colleges’

• UCSI University, Faculty of Medical Sciences – School of Medicine

• Monash University Malaysia, School of Medicine and Health Sciences

• International Medical University, Faculty of Medicine

• AIMST University, Faculty of Medicine and Health Sciences

• Allianze College Of Medical Sciences, Faculty Of Medicine

• Management and Science University, Faculty of Medicine

• Cyberjaya University College of Medical Sciences, Faculty of Medicine

• Royal College of Medicine Perak, School of Medicine

• Melaka Manipal Medical College, School of Medicine

• Penang Medical College, School of Medicine

• MAHSA University College, Faculty Of Medicine

• Newcastle University Medicine Malaysia ( NuMED)

• Taylor’s University College, School of Medicine

• UTAR

These are the medical schools in Malaysia. These schools when fully functional will produce about 4000 doctors a year. There will be thousands more Malaysian doctors being produced overseas, since many Malaysians are studying medicine in UK, Australia, New Zealand, India, Indonesia, Russia, Taiwan and even Ukraine.

The sudden mushrooming of medical schools are apparently due to shortages of doctors in the public sectors. This is because most doctors in government service resign after their compulsory services and opt for the supposedly greener pasture in the private sector.

In most other countries, the logical thing to do to counter this brain drain of doctors to private sector is to find out why doctors are resigning from government service and then try to address the woes of the doctors , and hopefully keep them in service. I call this common logic.

The Malaysian solution , like in many other instances, does not take common logic into account but rather uses the sledgehammer approach. After all, we do have Malaysian logic which is different from common logic practiced in most other countries. For example, if we cannot have spacecraft of our own, we can still produce Astronauts by sending Malaysians into space hitchhiking on other countries’ spacecraft.

In most other countries, the common logic will be to try to improve the working conditions in public sector so that doctors will stay back. But Malaysian logic is sledgehammer logic, and is very different.

If the doctors do not want to stay in government service, then Malaysia shall flood the market with doctors, so goes the Malaysian logic. Never mind that setting up of medical schools and training doctors are expensive businesses. We have petroleum and huge amount of development funds. By building more buildings and buying expensive medical equipment to equip these medical schools, billions will have to be spent and of course, in the Malaysian context, everyone will be happy, down from the planners, the contractors, the parents and all others involved, since the perception is that projects in Malaysia inevitably will have some leakages and wastages and many people are very happy with these leakages and wastages. Never mind that we may have the hardware but we may not have enough qualified people to man these medical schools.

The Malaysian logic seems to be like this: If enough doctors are produced, the market will be saturated with doctors and thus doctors will have no where to go but to stay put in government service.

Well, the people may be clapping hands and rejoicing that with more doctors than are needed, medical costs will come down.

Unfortunately, things do not function like this in medical education. Experience in some countries tells us that some doctors in private practice , when faced with too few patients will charge higher and do more investigations, some of which may not be needed, so instead of medical cost going down , it will go up.

In any advanced nation, the setting of a medical school requires a lot of planning and not on ad hoc basis. Planning that must include where to source for experienced and qualified teachers, where to build new or source for existing teaching hospitals which are big enough for the placement of these medical students to do training. Planning such as facilities, equipments, classrooms, curriculum. In the west, it takes many years of planning for a medical school to be set up; whereas in Malaysia, we see more than 10 in the last 5 years.

In Malaysia, due to the sudden ‘exponential’ increase in medical schools, we have medical schools pinching staff from each other, even the mediocre ones, and with that number of qualified teachers only, it is unavoidable that many teachers may not have the experience and qualification to be medical lecturers.

The early birds (medical schools) are more fortunate. Their students are placed in bigger hospitals like the General Hospitals of Kuala Lumpur or Penang. Now, some of the medical schools just opened have to send their students to smaller district hospitals to do their training. The smaller hospitals are often manned by more junior doctors who are not qualified to be medical teachers, and these hospitals have only very basic facilities and equipment.

This is just the beginning of the problems. For a doctor, graduating from a medical school is the beginning of a life long journey, and the basic medical degree is more like a license to start to really learn how to manage and treat patients.

The most important year after a doctor graduated is the houseman-ship. If a doctor does not have proper houseman training, then he would face a lot of problems later on. He or she may know all the medical knowledge in the world (just for argument sake only since knowledge of medicine is so vast that no one can know everything), but without the proper houseman training, he or she will not get the hand-on experience so crucial and important to doctors. A doctor without proper houseman training is not unlike a person, who has played only racing in the arcade games, suddenly being asked to race in a real life race. He would not have the hands on experience to do well. A doctor without proper houseman training would be like a person given a license to kill and a disaster waiting to happen.

Now, with 4000 doctors being produced in a year, where do we find so many houseman positions for these young doctors? Even now, with some of the medical schools just starting and not yet producing doctors, and the number of doctors being produced is much less than the 4000 , the wards in some of the bigger hospitals are filled with so many housemen that in some wards, there are not enough patients for these housemen to learn management skills. About a year back, I was told, in HKL some of the units have more than 20 housemen. Recently one doctor told me that in some units, it may have even more than that. I was aghast. Since with that many housemen in a single unit, and so few senior officers to guide them and so few patients for them to learn from, how are they going to learn the skill of doctoring?

When there is not enough training for these housemen, what do you think our policy planners do? In the typical Malaysian style, they increase the length of houseman-ship from a year to 2, hoping that the longer time will help to give better exposure to these doctors. Compared to Australia, New Zealand, and United Kingdom, houseman-ship is still one year only. By increasing the length of the houseman-ship, it is a tacit admission that our one year houseman training is not as good as the above mentioned countries. A poorly trained houseman will become a not so good medical officer, and since now most of the specialists are trained internally, it will be a matter of time that future specialists may not be as well trained as present.

Many parents do not know about the actual situation and still encourage their children to take up medicine. They are not told of the actual situation. The day will come when there are simply so many doctors that none are adequately trained. There will come a day when a doctor graduating from a medical school cannot even be placed in a houseman position and that day is actually very near.

[supergoh]

Thank you for sharing the blog ,tehjiao.

The election results are out. Maybe there will be a new (actually former)health official to tackle the issue of an oversupply of doctors.

[orthopod]

Thank you for sharing the blog ,tehjiao.

The election results are out. Maybe there will be a new (actually former)health official to tackle the issue of an oversupply of doctors.

we think there is an oversupply but JPA thinks the shortage is still critical.

[supergoh]

we think there is an oversupply but JPA thinks the shortage is still critical.

Of course ,JPA always thinks that way.

Don't you know that we have one of the highest civil servant- population ratio in the world?

Sometimes,I really think that JPA does not really know how to plan things.

[vseehua]

From what i read, UN recommend a healthy doctor to population ratio is 600:1. Our country current doctor to population ratio is 1200:1. Considering the fact we were having 2000:1 some 15-20 years ago, today ratio has vastly improved but still long way to go if we want to meet UN standard.
Thing is, the ratio is useless if we don't spread the doctors all over the country. Currently, most doctors are clustered in the cities, leaving the rural areas severely short of capable medical staff. I would bet that most rumah sakit in the kampung areas are staffed by medical assistants with no doctors overseeing them...

[supergoh]

Finally ,compulsory service for doctors has been reduced to 2 years.

But politicians always say that it can attract doctors to stay in the country.

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/4/15/nation/20100415160931&sec=nation

[tehjiao]

Same author, Dr Hsu, who wrote again regarding "Extraordinary Amount of New Doctors in Malaysia", worth reading.

http://hsudarren.wordpress.com/2010/05/04/a-doctor-too-many-iii/
http://hsudarren.wordpress.com/2010/05/06/a-doctor-too-many-iv/

Part 3
This is the number of house officers as of end of April 2010 in HKL , the biggest hospital in our country:

Unit Number of housemen in the unit
Orthopaedic Department 52
O & G Unit 50
Medical Department 72
Surgical Department 57
Paediatric Department 62
Just as an illustration, the orthopedic unit mentioned in the table above has 182 beds. With 52 house officers, it amounts to 1 houseman to slightly more than 3 patients.. A ratio you would not be able to find anywhere else in the world, believe me! Not even in the most advanced country!

Gone were the days when we had only 2 or 3 house officers in a unit. I remember during my time, when I was doing housemanship in Penang GH, I was for 2 weeks the only houseman in the orthopedic unit. Now I heard they too had 60 housemen in the unit (Jan 2010 figure).

Just imagine, if you have 60 house officers following a consultant doing the ward round, how are those at the back going to learn? I do not think there are even enough standing room for all of them. How are they going to examine a textbook case ( a case with classical signs and symptoms), since to do so would have subjected the patient to examinations 60 times– if the patient does not die from his illness, he might die from too much handling from these housemen!!!

The figures I quoted are real figures. I am sure those of you reading now would agree with me that there are now simply too many doctors being produced, and since there are not enough hospitals to place them in, there is no choice but to place them in the same units…

No wonder i received emails after my last posts saying that many house officrs are seen spending most of their time in the canteens, since they just have nowhere to go…

And in no time, these same people will be treating you and me, including the politicians. Perhaps I should warn them here that Healthcare is different from education. In education, if our schools are no good, they can still send their children overseas to study. But when these politicians get a stroke or heart attack, it would be too late for them to fly out to even Singapore to seek treatment. They would be treated by the same local doctors that they help in mass production.

Our healthcare standard is going to deteriorate with this sort of training of our doctors..Just like almost everything else.

I am now in the process of writing a memorandum to be submitted to the Ministry on this problem and I hope my writings can bring some sense to this madness of indiscriminate issuing of licenses to set up medical schools.

Part 4


At the end of 2008, Malaysia has about 23000 doctors, almost half in private sector.

Our Ministry is trying to achieve a ratio of 1:400 as existed in most OECD countries.

In the haste to achieve this number game, they have forgone quality.

It does not mean the more the better. Look at some of the communist countries like Bulgaria. They have a ratio of 1:200 doctor:population ratio. That does not mean that they have a better healthcare than Britain which has a ratio of 1:450. Another example is Kazakhstan which has a ration of 1:280 , as compared to Australia which has a ratio of 1:400. Does that means that Kazakhstan has better healthcare than Australia?

Our officials stress too much on achieving numbers. They stress too much on ‘form’ rather than substance.

If we have well trained doctor which are productive, a ratio of 1:1100, will mean that we are on par with those 1;400 countries with doctors which have low productivity.

Alas, we built 5 star hospitals with lobby bigger than Shangri La, but you dont need 5 star bed to treat diseases. You need clinical acumen , experience, and doctors who communicate with their patients.

As for the question asked by MKO in the last post (A doctor too many 3), it is still ok to get treatment from govt hospital NOW. In 5 to 10 years time, I am not sure. Unless they buck up, and set up a body to oversee the standard of doctors produced, I will not want to get treatment there in 10 years time.

I must stress that I am never against producing doctors. I am not in favour of producing too many INADEQUATELY TRAINED doctors. That would be like producing too many gun-carrying policemen without training them as to when to shoot and when not to shoot.

At the rate we are producing doctors, 4000 a year, we will soon be down to 1:100 ratio.

Let us assume that we have a population of 27 million. Let us assume that the population growth is 3%. So every year, we have an additional 800000 people. Divide 800000 by 400, you get 2000. That means once we achieve a ratio of 1:400, we need only to produce 2000 doctors a year to maintain the ratio found in most advanced country. But we will be producing 4000 local plus 1000 from overseas (India, Indonesia etc..many will be staying put in the place they study like my children). So there will be excess 3000 doctors a year… This will quickly bring our ratio down to perhaps 1:100, and you will find some o the hawkers and taxi drivers with MBBS degree hanging in their stalls or taxis.

Not joking…

And looking at the history of medicine at advanced countries, when their doctor:population ratio decreased, the charges went up, and so was the cost of medical treatment , even when taken into consideration of inflation. This is because those who are competent, will charge higher and do more investigations.

There will come a stage when we have too many doctors, too many lawyers(already happening since some junior lawyers have to pay the senior lawyers to do their chambering), too many nurses, too many hawkers, too many cars, too many motorcycles, too many politicians, too many parties, too many police, too many criminals and too many crooks….. I dread to think of such a day!

As for the suggestion by Stevent in the last post, yes, we can send them overseas to work and gain experience, but which country would take them in if their standard is low? I am sure there is a cutting point where even Singapore would not want to take them in, as is the case now.

So you can still send them, to tag with experience doctors. That would like starting their medical training again and you need to pay overseas doctors money to do that sort of things, and there is really no guarantee these people will come back, once they are competent enough to be able to find a working job overseas.

The whole system is rotten, and all the planners can think of is short term and they are all very short sighted… Ultimately they will suffer too if there is a drop in medical standard. Because health hits everyone equally, it does not mean that if you are wealthy and powerful, you would not get cancer or immune disorders.. Ultimately, like facing the creator, everyone will have to face health problems, and they will then realise that what a monster they have created in their haste to achieve certain figures… Because a healthcare system without good doctors will be like a monster released ..

Well, I strongly agree that the quality of the new doctors are down to the drain recntly, my colleagues and I do encounter a lot of new HO who don’t even know “Aspirin = Antiplatelet” , “Human have “12″Cranial Nerves” which is the BASIC of the medical knowledge in Medical Year 1 syllabus. I’m worried that our health care quality will definitely deteriorate VERY SOON in next 5 years. However, I don’t see any one including our MOH DG forsee this. To make the things worse, recently there is Pekeliling to order HO to RATE their HOD/Consultant/Specialist/ Medical officer whether they treat them “nice or not” but ignore about the HO’s knowledge and attitude problem. I’m not sure that the idea of staying in MOH is a good idea in near future as I can forsee that there will be a lot of BIG PROBLEMS in our health care service soon as these incapable HO will become incapable MO and may even be accepted and trained as specialist by local Master programs. How can we let the Profession end up like this? Sadly, soon in public perception, MBBS/MD= Bomoh= Sinseh. Doctors=MRCP (UK)/ MBBS (SG)/ MD (Taiwan)/ MD (Japan)/ MD (whatever country the public have faith)


Strongly suggest those who are interested to study Medicine oversea esp Ukraine/Russia/Indonesia/India and those new local private college like AI**T and etc, ask around among the doctors in service and the graduates from respective uni/college, before u make your decision. Otherwise, u end up wasting your money and time become a lousy doctor. Good luck.

[youngyew]

Great article series. It might sound a bit alarmist to a skeptical reader and the severity might be a bit exaggerated, but I am convinced that this is an urgent issue. The policy needs to be fixed urgently if we don't want ourselves and our friends and families to be treated by "doctors" who don't even command first-year medical student knowledge.

By the way the population growth is closer to 2% than 3% according to one source (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=malaysia+population+growth). The calculation also didn't consider the number of retiring / dead doctors. Just to point out some inaccuracies in there, but this doesn't change the overall idea.

[tehjiao]

By the way the population growth is closer to 2% than 3% according to one source (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=malaysia+population+growth). The calculation also didn't consider the number of retiring / dead doctors. Just to point out some inaccuracies in there, but this doesn't change the overall idea.

well, i'm sure that the number of retiring/dead doctors won't reach 2000-4000 / year right?
LOL

[supergoh]

Finally,there is a politician aware of an excess of housemen in the country.

The news is in Mandarin.

http://www.kwongwah.com.my/news/2010/05/20/89.html

[Young]

Finally,there is a politician aware of an excess of housemen in the country.

The news is in Mandarin.

http://www.kwongwah.com.my/news/2010/05/20/89.html

That's good news.
Unfortunately, I can't read Mandarin. :( Any chance that you can post a short summary so a banana like me can be enlightened? :amuse

[supergoh]

That's good news.
Unfortunately, I can't read Mandarin. :( Any chance that you can post a short summary so a banana like me can be enlightened? :amuse

Don't worry. I found a website for you.

http://www.gerakan.org.my/my_press_details.asp?pid=1311&ccid=68

[junyong5155]

http://biz.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/5/13/business/6248822&sec=business

masterskill is going to offer MBBS

[youngyew]

Can our ministry stop approving all the medical schools?! We have enough badly-trained doctors already.

[Young]

http://biz.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/5/13/business/6248822&sec=business

masterskill is going to offer MBBS

Can't say I'm surprised. Frankly, our government doesn't give a shit about what happens to Malaysia.

"Declining doctor quality? Haiya, nevermind lah! That college pay me money to approve training; I happy, they happy, we all happy mahhhh! Even the kiasu parents also happy wei!
Besides, if I sick, I no need go see doctor in Malaisia also! I got lots of money to see good doctor in Singjiapoh and England and Austwalea!"

Malaysia memang boleh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfCwNRcTc2g

And it's not like our government doesn't realize we have an excess of housemen. They're just turning a blind eye to it.

[AnnieChan]

so what happens then? ( because im planning on taking medicine.) isnt the government going to do anything if this gets out of hand?

[alter_ego]

so what happens then? ( because im planning on taking medicine.) isnt the government going to do anything if this gets out of hand?
Yeah, I'm curious with it also.:oh I'm going to do medicine as well.

[Young]

so what happens then? ( because im planning on taking medicine.) isnt the government going to do anything if this gets out of hand?

The best piece of advice I can offer is to not let this news hinder you from doing medicine if you're truly passionate about it.

Avoid dodgy institutions and try to get into better-known medical schools; in times like these, your reputation can make or break your career.

Medicine is no longer one of those it-doesn't-matter-which-university-I-graduate-from-because-I'm-going-to-be-a-doctor-anyway careers because by the time these medical schools start churning out doctors at full capacity, people WILL discriminate you based on your university.

Don't believe me? Just look at what happened to the engineers. 30 years ago, anyone in Malaysia with an engineering degree will pretty much be assured a well-paying job. Fast forward to 2010 and we clusters of private colleges churning out engineering graduates. If you have a degree from a half-past six institution, you will NOT get employed by prestigious engineering consulting firms or companies. It's as simple as that. Trust me, I know; both my parents are in the engineering profession.

I believe the same thing will happen to doctors in due time. So the bottom line is; be a doctor if you're really into it, study hard, get into a good school, beat the competition.

:)

[orthopod]

not everyone has the means to get into a good foreign school.It is very expensive.
Haih..my only regret is,i didnt take JPA scholarship..hahah..obviously i would be bondless in 2015.My cousin graduated in August last year.JPA scholar as well..studied in the UK.She took a 8 month break travelling and doing fun stuff.and decided to go back to work.In her interview,the interviewers ask her..kenapa balik malaysia?hahahah..omg..so funny.

[Young]

not everyone has the means to get into a good foreign school.It is very expensive.
Haih..my only regret is,i didnt take JPA scholarship..hahah..obviously i would be bondless in 2015.My cousin graduated in August last year.JPA scholar as well..studied in the UK.She took a 8 month break travelling and doing fun stuff.and decided to go back to work.In her interview,the interviewers ask her..kenapa balik malaysia?hahahah..omg..so funny.

Notice I did not say anything about needing to get into a foreign school. :)

There are many respectable medical schools in Malaysia; UM, USM, UKM, IMU, Monash, PMC, etc. In my humble opinion, any medical school is of acceptable standard if it does not reek of commercialization.

I mean, some of the newer institutions have such ridiculously low entry requirements, it's scary. CCC/TER70-80. No interview. Nothing. Just pay the cash upfront and you're in. :notrust That's just wrong at every level.

[orthopod]

Notice I did not say anything about needing to get into a foreign school. :)

There are many respectable medical schools in Malaysia; UM, USM, UKM, IMU, Monash, PMC, etc. In my humble opinion, any medical school is of acceptable standard if it does not reek of commercialization.

I mean, some of the newer institutions have such ridiculously low entry requirements, it's scary. CCC/TER70-80. No interview. Nothing. Just pay the cash upfront and you're in. :notrust That's just wrong at every level.

UM UKM USM may be better than other private schools ,but still of very poor standard.I met a professor from Chinese University of Hong kong and he is british,he said UKM has got the worse medical school ever,he was an external examiner for their postgrad exams and also thought undergrad,in fact he was very surprised that singapore recognizes UKm medical degree,but then again,..as if singapore is that hebat..they are also lowering their standards..

plus IMU,PMC and Monash does reek of commercialization more than the other institutions to be exact..entrance requirements may be slightly higher..but again...the training is ..well not sure what to say..la.

[Young]

UM UKM USM may be better than other private schools ,but still of very poor standard.I met a professor from Chinese University of Hong kong and he is british,he said UKM has got the worse medical school ever,he was an external examiner for their postgrad exams and also thought undergrad,in fact he was very surprised that singapore recognizes UKm medical degree,but then again,..as if singapore is that hebat..they are also lowering their standards..

plus IMU,PMC and Monash does reek of commercialization more than the other institutions to be exact..entrance requirements may be slightly higher..but again...the training is ..well not sure what to say..la.

Hmm, that's weird. From personal experience, my encounters with UM,UKM and USM doctors were pleasant, if not excellent. They seemed to know their fields very well.

And while IMU, PMC and Monash may demonstrate aspects of commercialization (which institution doesn't?), they do try to maintain their standards. And to say their entry requirements are 'slightly higher' is an understatement. On average, accepted students score well above AAB/TER90, which is fairly respectable figure. Bottom line is, I don't think profit is their only priority as they do demonstrate (or at least attempt to achieve) some form of quality control.

While the training in the aforementioned public and private institutions may or may not be as comprehensive as some of the top foreign schools, it is the best the average Malaysian can afford.Therefore, it is only fair to encourage prospective medical students to aim for these institutions rather than settle for any random medical school. As you said earlier, not everyone has the means necessary to study in a foreign institution, be it financially or striking the JPA lottery.

[supergoh]

UM UKM USM may be better than other private schools ,but still of very poor standard.I met a professor from Chinese University of Hong kong and he is british,he said UKM has got the worse medical school ever,he was an external examiner for their postgrad exams and also thought undergrad,in fact he was very surprised that singapore recognizes UKm medical degree,but then again,..as if singapore is that hebat..they are also lowering their standards..

plus IMU,PMC and Monash does reek of commercialization more than the other institutions to be exact..entrance requirements may be slightly higher..but again...the training is ..well not sure what to say..la.

Maybe UKM medical staff is quite good in acting to the extent of impressing Singapore ,thereby earning the recognition of Singapore.Or Singapore is ignorant of the situation in Malaysia as generally most Malaysians still quite respect UM and UKM medical graduates.Or Singapore really lower its standards as it is facing serious ageing population problem.Maybe the real reason is to bring in the best brains from Malaysia,especially the Chinese who can easily assimilate into Singapore population.Anywhere, UKM medical graduates still need to undergo housemanship in Singapore.Whether they are up to par would be judged there.

Remember that recognition can be withdrawn anytime.Just like Malaysia could de-recognise Ukraine medical degree all of a sudden.

IMU is definitely profit-oriented.You should look at the tuition fee of dentistry course and you would know what I mean.

[orthopod]

yes..as it would normally be assumed ,the chinese are the "brains" in malaysia.this will never change and it sucks..i have a malay friend who did really well in school and there was a chinese teacher who asked him do you have any chinese blood in you..like WTF really.

[supergoh]

yes..as it would normally be assumed ,the chinese are the "brains" in malaysia.this will never change and it sucks..i have a malay friend who did really well in school and there was a chinese teacher who asked him do you have any chinese blood in you..like WTF really.

No choice.You see that 3 out of 4 Asia dragons are dominated by the Chinese.If this country is dominated by the Chinese,maybe this country would be better managed.Abnormal thing such as excess of doctors would not happen.Indians would also enjoy a better position in this country.

[orthopod]

Personally I'd be happier if the malays dominated this country.hehe..as is the case now..why are u so concerned about the excess of doctors?make less money is it?

[youngyew]

I seriously don't think we should bring in race in the topic of healthcare.

[Young]

Personally I'd be happier if the malays dominated this country.hehe..as is the case now..why are u so concerned about the excess of doctors?make less money is it?

The biggest utilitarian concern would be the quality of doctors being churned out. Are they up to scratch? Will they have a positive influence on the workforce? Can they treat properly? Questions like these have to be asked and answered if there is a chance that quantity may be offsetting quality.

From a more personal perspective, money isn't the biggest issue; fairness is. Like I've mentioned in previous posts, it irks me to know certain individuals went through and sacrificed far less to obtain their medical degrees yet when (or if) I enter the Malaysian workforce, we're all placed on an equal footing. Kinda frustrating, if you ask me.

If the healthcare system in Malaysia was completely impartial and fair, I really couldn't care less if Malaysia churned out 20,000 doctors a year because then, it's all up to competition and personal ability; the best doctor gets the job. As we know, this is far from the case in Malaysia so obviously, there is something to shout about being a medical student.

[supergoh]

Personally I'd be happier if the malays dominated this country.hehe..as is the case now..why are u so concerned about the excess of doctors?make less money is it?

Every citizen in this country should be concerned about the excess of doctors because healthcare is a basic necessity.

[supergoh]

Can our ministry stop approving all the medical schools?! We have enough badly-trained doctors already.

It seems the long-awaited answer has finally appeared.

Read the website thoroughly.

http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v5/newsgeneral.php?id=501992

[SapphireDragon]

"There will be an oversupply of doctors in 5 to 6 years time and students should be aware of this future trend" says MCA President Chua Soi Lek today in The Star.

[orthopod]

only 3000 per year from local unis?On average each university produces 150 graduates per year..and so if we have 28 x150=4200.Some unis produce about 300 grads per year because they have two intakes.
i think there will be a lot of grads from abroad returning from countries like Russia,India,Poland,Chezch,Indonesia,Hungary,Romania,some students from UK and aussie go back too..sigh...so in actual fact we're looking at approximately 6 -7 thousand doctors produced per year.

[AnnieChan]

its about time the government starts taking this issue seriously before it gets out of hand !

[terencegreen]

well i think this is one of the reasons why we go through brain drain which is increasing year after year as most graduates prefer doing their practice in much private surounding than being around a place that can be so called pasar malam[?].:lol:..just my two cents.

[MarknJun]

I do think that mayb there will be excess doctors, but we wil still certainly lack of good doctors.

[AnnieChan]

There may be excess in GPs but you dont see a needed rise in specialists now, do you? If the government is serious on moving forward in this issue, they should really be producing much needed qualified specialists and not incompetent, unqualified doctors.

[Young]

There may be excess in GPs but you dont see a needed rise in specialists now, do you? If the government is serious on moving forward in this issue, they should really be producing qualified specialists and not half-baked products.

I do hope you're not referring to GPs in general when you mention 'half-baked products.'

[AnnieChan]

no, im not. i'm refering to those incompetent doctors churned out by some universities like factory goods just for the sole purpose of running their business.. sorry if i have mislead you :)

[cycycy]

There may be. A lot of people want to be doctors and lots of medical academies keep flourishing. Plus, the entry requirement is not that high now. There may be 'over-production' of them in the future.

[supergoh]

Another probably good solution to the problem of an excess of medical doctors in this country.

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/6/8/nation/6418556&sec=nation

[cycycy]

What's important in the medical field is not the quantity of medical personnel, but quality. Hope this can be controlled by the government.

[supergoh]

Another interesting article.
http://myhealth-matters.blogspot.com/2010/06/malaysiakini-mma-what-sort-of-doctors.html

[speckboyz]

I don't quite agree.
For me, the 'excess of doctors will not happen. It is true that the number of doctors increase by the time. But the number is not the factor to be judged on. If the government can manage the number of doctors through out the country, this issue will not happen. The government should think how to handle this kind of problem, rather than playing politics all the time.

http://myhealth-matters.blogspot.com/2010/06/malaysiakini-mma-what-sort-of-doctors.html
based on the same article, the ratio of doc and malaysian will be 1:700 when we reach 2020. The same ratio actually already happen in some of the Europe country. Germany is one of them (if i'm not mistaken). but still their doctors get the work.

but still, it is just a piece of my opinion..:))

[vseehua]

The doctors in Germany have better training compared to the doctors in Malaysia. We are all concerned not about the numbers of doctors that come out every year, but the quality of the graduates. Because of the sudden implosion of the numbers of colleges churning out doctors every year, the current staffs in the hospital are unable to give sufficient and thorough enough guidance to these fresh housemen.

Do read the previous posts in this thread, I believe we have enough arguments to support this claim.

[supergoh]

Now a US medical school wants to establish medical school in Malaysia.It is most likely to be the best medical school in Malaysia in the near future.

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/9/26/nation/7106678&sec=nation

[Alexis Ma]

John Hopkins University ranks highly. That would be a welcome change in the Malaysian education scene.

I suppose there wont be any sweeping changes to the Malaysian education system itself, though. Just another opportunity for local students to get a good education.

They're partnering with Sitt Tatt Berhad. Freshest news today. Sit tight, guys!

http://www.nst.com.my/nst/articles/4naj-2/Article/

[supergoh]

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/12/12/nation/7608384&sec=nation

I can only conclude that this government has no foresight.

[tehjiao]

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/12/12/nation/7608384&sec=nation

I can only conclude that this government has no foresight.

Our gov still don't get it, "It's all about the quality, not quantity!"

[junyong5155]

http://www.sinchew.com.my/node/186478?tid=1

I really upset-ed by our minister of health after reading this. Sorry, I don't how to translate all. It's about our minister of health proposed to stop running medical program in our country for 5 years (both private and local uni).

[youngyew]

http://www.sinchew.com.my/node/186478?tid=1

I really upset-ed by our minister of health after reading this. Sorry, I don't how to translate all. It's about our minister of health proposed to stop running medical program in our country for 5 years (both private and local uni).
The moratorium is to stop colleges from starting *new medical training programs* for five years. The existing colleges will still enrolling students for their courses annually if I'm not mistaken.

I think this is a good first step in slowing down the houseman glut. Would you mind to share why you are upset?

[cycycy]

My uncle who's a doctor says there are 150+ housemen in Hospital Sri Manjung, a tiny little neighbourhood hospital. The groups of housemen could hardly see when their mentors/ MOs are attending to patients. How could they be able to learn like that? If this goes on, quality of new doctors need to be questioned. :oh:oh

Few years back the media reported lack of medical personnel, and many went to pursue medical studies. Now, there is an excess of doctors. The moratorium proposed to prevent the housemen glut is a shocking news. It will make malaysia a laughing stock to others countries, as this is due to lack of planning, control and foresight. What will happen to those who are about to are about to pursue tertiary education and want to become doctors? Give up their dream? Flood to other countries such as Russia? Face difficulty to find a job when they return?

The government should have seen it long ago, and try to restrict number of students accepted into medical faculties in local and private universities, instead of trying to salvage the situation using such drastic measures after the damage is done. :oh


PS: I foresee an excess of pharmacists in the future too. Seeing so many people interested in it and so many universities and colleges offering it. :amazed

[junyong5155]

The moratorium is to stop colleges from starting *new medical training programs* for five years. The existing colleges will still enrolling students for their courses annually if I'm not mistaken.

I think this is a good first step in slowing down the houseman glut. Would you mind to share why you are upset?


廖中萊：與高教部達共識‧大專停辦醫學系5年

From what i see, it's stop conducting medical program for 5 years in our country.

[youngyew]

The moratorium proposed to prevent the housemen glut is a shocking news. It will make malaysia a laughing stock to others countries, as this is due to lack of planning, control and foresight. What will happen to those who are about to are about to pursue tertiary education and want to become doctors? Give up their dream? Flood to other countries such as Russia? Face difficulty to find a job when they return?
I believe the moratorium is to stop colleges from starting new programmes, instead of stopping admission of new students in preexisting medical courses.

廖中萊：與高教部達共識‧大專停辦醫學系5年

From what i see, it's stop conducting medical program for 5 years in our country.
In the article it says this:
另一方面，高教部长拿督斯里莫哈末卡立表示，政府暂停国內所有大专增设新的医学系课程，目的是防止政府医院实习医生继续剧增。

他表示，该项紧急措施將禁止国內所有大专增设医学系，为期5年，並且必须把注意力放在提昇现有医学系学生的素质上。
The corresponding news in The Star (http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/12/12/nation/7608384&sec=nation) says the same thing too.

I believe Sin Chew has posted a misleading news heading.

[cycycy]

I believe the moratorium is to stop colleges from starting new programmes, instead of stopping admission of new students in preexisting medical courses.


In the article it says this:

The corresponding news in The Star (http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/12/12/nation/7608384&sec=nation) says the same thing too.

I believe Sin Chew has posted a misleading news heading.

Sorry, my bad :( Misleading indeed.

[gabanpendek]

only [censored] idiots would support a reduction in doctors or a slow down just to ensure the salary is protected. the way to deal with this is not to slow the output, but to provide better opportunities like an increase in salary but importantly provide people with the training opportunities. at the end of the day apart from ourselves, importantly we all set out to make sure people have access to good quality doctors (who aren't overworked). so people who support less doctors = rather have less doctors to help people. [censored].

[cycycy]

only [censored] idiots would support a reduction in doctors or a slow down just to ensure the salary is protected. the way to deal with this is not to slow the output, but to provide better opportunities like an increase in salary but importantly provide people with the training opportunities. at the end of the day apart from ourselves, importantly we all set out to make sure people have access to good quality doctors (who aren't overworked). so people who support less doctors = rather have less doctors to help people. [censored].

please mind your language. :oh

[vseehua]

only [censored] idiots would support a reduction in doctors or a slow down just to ensure the salary is protected. the way to deal with this is not to slow the output, but to provide better opportunities like an increase in salary but importantly provide people with the training opportunities. at the end of the day apart from ourselves, importantly we all set out to make sure people have access to good quality doctors (who aren't overworked). so people who support less doctors = rather have less doctors to help people. [censored].

You may want to mind your language. Consider this your first warning!
seehua

[plain_white]

only [censored] idiots would support a reduction in doctors or a slow down just to ensure the salary is protected. the way to deal with this is not to slow the output, but to provide better opportunities like an increase in salary but importantly provide people with the training opportunities. at the end of the day apart from ourselves, importantly we all set out to make sure people have access to good quality doctors (who aren't overworked). so people who support less doctors = rather have less doctors to help people. [censored].
it's not the quantity, but the quality that matters...if more substandard doctors are produced, it will do more harm than good. The one who suffer is patients themselves. Ultimately, it will tarnish the good name of this noble profession