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PAS still too crazy

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Nicholas92 Male
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  #1 Old 25-11-2012 Default PAS still too crazy

So after all these years, and after all the supposed moderation, it really looks like PAS just wants to be another silly Islamist administration with weird, backward and stupid social policies.

To me it's more exasperating than worrisome, because there's a reason PAS has only managed to keep a grip over Kelantan - the people there voted for them. You could argue that whatever crap is happening in Kelantan now, is a result of their own choice, although I can't imagine the hairdressers would vote for PAS much after this, especially if it's a question of personal livelihood.

Anyway, I still do think PAS has progressed much since ten years ago - ten years ago they were much more extreme (which is why Barisan Alternatif broke down) and I remember way back you actually heard shit like "If you vote for PAS you'll go to heaven".

So I think many of the major leaders know they have to be more moderate to win votes, but many of their members continue their highly conservative streak and push for these stupid policies. It's the same reason why hudud keeps getting brought up - the party elite have already decided it's not a politically viable goal to have right now, so they've shelved it, but they can't stop the crazy rank-and-file from voicing their opinions. Look at the recent PAS muktamar, so many people want Hadi Awang to be PM for goodness' sake!

But what I'm getting at is that despite all this, despite the fact that I never want PAS to ever be the government, I'm not too worried as long as they're part of Pakatan. And what I want to get at is, let's not let the politicking of other parties make us irrationally afraid of this crazy party.

Firstly, PAS isn't even contesting a majority of seats in Parliament, let alone a majority of seats in Pakatan - so it definitely cannot form the government on its own, and it probably won't be the biggest party in Pakatan either. That alone means that it will never have the authority or votes to push through crazy Islamic state policies.

Secondly, we know that the other Pakatan parties won't stand for policies like that. They cannot touch Kelantan because it's a totally PAS-dominated area, but in terms of national policies there have been plenty from DAP or PKR speaking out against hudud and other unfavourable ideas from PAS. They know how politically unfeasible it is and will likely keep it in check. And I don't even think this is an optimistic viewpoint.

Thirdly, if all else fails, the people will likely defeat such policies. The fact is that a huge majority of people will be opposed to nonsense like gender-segregated hair salons, or gender-segregated supermarket lines. Even if by some magic PAS pushes it through, it's a sure bet that there'll be so much political pressure on them that they'll be forced to retract those policies, or face a serious beating at the polls.

So what I'm saying is, chill out guys. Even if Dr M wrongly declared us an Islamic state, we just aren't going to be one any time soon.

Anyone disagree with me?
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  #2 Old 25-11-2012 Default Re: PAS still too crazy

Well, as far as I'm concerned, what many parties (not just PAS) apparently have failed to realise is that we are still a multicultural, multiracial society. It is difficult for me to comprehend why there are people who want to shove their beliefs and principles up into other people's heads when the latter do not profess or embrace such beliefs in the first place.

I have nothing against implementing hudud or enforcing Islamic laws, provided always that such laws are not enforced or not applied to non-Muslims. How could non-Muslims be subjected to Islamic laws when non-Muslims is, honestly, beyond my comprehension. My greatest defence is always: "I am not a Muslim, I do not subscribe to Islamic beliefs so I should not be bound by Islamic laws. I respect your identity and I do not oppose to your upholding the tenets and laws of Islam among your brethren, but please do not tell me that this is wrong or that is wrong according to your faith, because I do not necessarily embrace your ideologies."

So far as the salons are concerned, if non-Muslim salon operators are dealing with non-Muslim customers regardless of gender, I do not see the reason why the city council should meddle with their businesses.

Time and again we have been taught to be respectful and thoughtful of other people's cultures and beliefs. When my family has excess vegetables and fruits (my relatives are farmers in Cameron Highlands), we give them away to our Muslim neighbours in their raw forms. We would not cook them and give them to our neighbours because we are aware that we have cooked pork with our utensils. Our Muslim neighbours would not share dishes with beef to our Hindu neighbours, nor would we share any dishes with any meat to vegetarian neighbours. I know this sounds trivial, but this is the very fundamental step towards inculcating mutual understanding among society, and the realisation that nobody's religion is superior.

Some individuals may argue that their laws and principles only bring good and are meant well, so it should be no problem for even people who do not profess their faith. It's not that simple! When you enforce your religious laws onto other people who do not profess the same faith in the first place, it affects their lives in ways that it has never affected you. The salon case is the best example now. They never had problems dealing with customers of different genders - and now they are slapped with fines. The impression? Those religious laws are only becoming restrictive to them. Business will be greatly affected.

You can't go around saying, "If you don't like our laws, then leave." Not only does that show a chauvinistic character of the person who says that, people who have the capability of doing that will indeed leave. And who is to say that wouldn't bring negative repercussions to the country?

At times, PAS wants to be the party for all Malaysians. I can understand their need to defend their principles which define the party, but when you're dealing with a melting pot of cultures, races and religions in this country, you can't get your way at all times. There is a need to compromise principles in consideration of people of different beliefs.
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  #3 Old 29-11-2012 Default Re: PAS still too crazy

I think some group in PAS try to modernize PAS - but the grassroots who uphold the very tenet of PAS won't like it. So basically, I see that they want to rule Malaysia by partnering with the BN's enemies (principle: my enemy's enemy is my friend). But I really can't see how can they be compatible to rule Malaysia as one country.

They can rule Malaysia, but the States would be splitted around like currently. I also had a funny feeling that if they don't have common binding ideas on how to rule 1 state, they can't have a common binding idea of ruling 1 nation. Most likely, we will have 4 portion of Malaysia (PAS, DAP, PKR, Borneo). It won't be pretty.

Anyway, nobody likes to be governed by extremists, left or right. (except the extremists themselves)
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Last edited by masterof_none; 29-11-2012 at 09:23 PM.
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  #4 Old 30-11-2012 Default Re: PAS still too crazy

Quote:
Originally Posted by henry_yew View Post
Well, as far as I'm concerned, what many parties (not just PAS) apparently have failed to realise is that we are still a multicultural, multiracial society. It is difficult for me to comprehend why there are people who want to shove their beliefs and principles up into other people's heads when the latter do not profess or embrace such beliefs in the first place.

I have nothing against implementing hudud or enforcing Islamic laws, provided always that such laws are not enforced or not applied to non-Muslims. How could non-Muslims be subjected to Islamic laws when non-Muslims is, honestly, beyond my comprehension. My greatest defence is always: "I am not a Muslim, I do not subscribe to Islamic beliefs so I should not be bound by Islamic laws. I respect your identity and I do not oppose to your upholding the tenets and laws of Islam among your brethren, but please do not tell me that this is wrong or that is wrong according to your faith, because I do not necessarily embrace your ideologies."

So far as the salons are concerned, if non-Muslim salon operators are dealing with non-Muslim customers regardless of gender, I do not see the reason why the city council should meddle with their businesses.

Some individuals may argue that their laws and principles only bring good and are meant well, so it should be no problem for even people who do not profess their faith. It's not that simple! When you enforce your religious laws onto other people who do not profess the same faith in the first place, it affects their lives in ways that it has never affected you. The salon case is the best example now. They never had problems dealing with customers of different genders - and now they are slapped with fines. The impression? Those religious laws are only becoming restrictive to them. Business will be greatly affected.
I mostly agree. Although I'd like to add that in this case PAS is not being crazy just for roping non-Muslims into this, but crazy for enacting such a bad law in the first place.

Most of the time, the laws we choose to enact have self-evident merits - you don't even have to justify making things like stealing, or killing, or fraud illegal. You might haggle over the details (what sentence? how heavy a fine?) but not the criminalisation itself.

Then you have the hair salon issue, which on the face of it has no value at all - it's simply extrapolating the law to deal with the (not so evident) root issue, which is preventing inappropriate relations between men and women. Dealing with problems in the first degree obviously will seem valuable on the face of it. But this is a third-degree approach.

Example: outlaw killing, then outlaw guns because guns are closely linked to killing/can directly give rise to killing. That may be a second degree way of dealing with the matter, because the primary purpose of guns is to hurt/inflict damage, and it does so in a way that can easily be fatal. But the hair salon? By my understanding they are implementing the rule because of all the hair salons in the state, *some* of them run inappropriate activities there.

Taking that mindset, why don't we outlaw hotels? People can hire rooms privately and have all the inappropriate illegal sex they want. I'm sure not ALL hotels are used for this, in fact, I'm sure only a few may be, but hey - following the hair salon rule, it's perfectly valid!

Over the past few days my mindset has shifted from "This is a stupid example of PAS trying to impose Islamic law on non-Muslims" to "This is a stupid example of a law, period".

After all, if PAS declared that according to Islamic law, stealing would carry a heavy fine and some jail time (let's assume there were no laws on the matter previously) would we actually object to it? I don't think so. The reason we are objecting to this - as you have pointed out, it's hurting businesses, etc. - doesn't have much to do with the fact that it's religious, but just that it's stupid. But we don't criticise the law in itself because we are taking the "Let them have it if they want" approach, which isn't wrong (if they do indeed want it) but in my opinion certainly doesn't help the Muslims either.

All along, these groups (not just PAS) have been way too distrustful and insulting to the very people who purportedly elect them - the Muslims themselves. They think that the Muslims have such weak constitutions that listening to Elton John will make them gay. They think that they are so sex-crazy that even having their hair cut by someone of the opposite sex can so often lead to inappropriate relations. If it were me I would be quite offended.

Of course we have to respect religious beliefs. If there are people uncomfortable with having their hair cut with someone of the opposite sex, that's totally fine - nobody is stupid for thinking that, and I think we can all accept that readily. But to then ask that everyone else adhere to that principle, as a point of law, is ridiculous.

If the people elected PAS subscribe to this personal belief, then what need is there for a law to enforce what they already believe in? It's contradictory.


Quote:
Originally Posted by masterof_none View Post
I think some group in PAS try to modernize PAS - but the grassroots who uphold the very tenet of PAS won't like it. So basically, I see that they want to rule Malaysia by partnering with the BN's enemies (principle: my enemy's enemy is my friend). But I really can't see how can they be compatible to rule Malaysia as one country.

They can rule Malaysia, but the States would be splitted around like currently. I also had a funny feeling that if they don't have common binding ideas on how to rule 1 state, they can't have a common binding idea of ruling 1 nation. Most likely, we will have 4 portion of Malaysia (PAS, DAP, PKR, Borneo). It won't be pretty.

Anyway, nobody likes to be governed by extremists, left or right. (except the extremists themselves)
Quite true. PAS has clearly been moving towards a more moderate direction - Mat Sabu and his group winning the internal elections is one sign. And I'd even argue that that indicates that plenty party members are embracing a more moderate stance as well.

But they are way too in love with their leaders. I don't know why they love Hadi Awang so much. See how they so passionately (and rather stupidly, politically) declare that Hadi should be PM if Pakatan wins? In addition to handing unnecessary ammunition to BN, they've just demonstrated how blind they are - how is Hadi qualified? No one outside of PAS supports the idea. How can the head of an Islamic party, with no prior experience in governance or no real foreign international experience, head the country? Based on merits alone Hadi is way down on the list of candidates. Yet they supported him so wholeheartedly.

As for them being compatible with other parties, well - as weird as the combination is, I'd say it's not too different from, for instance, the Lib Dem-Conservative pact in the UK right now. They've had to put aside some very different and very polarising ideological goals in favour of winning votes based on common ground ideas.

Time will tell how long they will last, but it's not like they're this unstable, nearly-collapsing government. I feel that Pakatan will be the same. There will be plenty for them to tackle (all things they agree on) before they can even consider feasibly pushing the really divisive party policies. Combating corruption, increasing welfare and reforming archaic laws are all common policies that they agree on (and that would help them politically), and they don't have anything to do with an Islamic state.
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  #5 Old 30-11-2012 Default Re: PAS still too crazy

If things as small as hairdresser can't be resolved by the leadership, I am not so sure about bigger things.
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  #6 Old 04-07-2013 Default Re: PAS still too crazy

It's so futile that they point fingers. It's one thing to say the matter is a political one (and in such a case I don't think we'd dare be too partisan) but where it involves what is clearly a crime, all bets are off. I don't care they want to claim they were baited and tricked by the Global Witness people, you can't just make people say rubbish like 'the locals treat us like kings' or 'they are actually squatters', or the other things. There's no context where I can imagine those statements could ever be objectively innocent.

Now, we just have to see how they react to it. The MACC has been 'looking into' Taib for ages. And now they have very concrete, and very public, proof. There are no more excuses. If it takes more than a week to have Taib brought in for questioning of some sort, I think we won't hesitate to call it fishy. The way I see it, Najib only has two options now. He can either ignore it, suppress the news in the local papers (like he has done for the Scorpene/Altantuya issues) and hope it blows over, OR he can use it as leverage to finally push Taib out - which may even help his standing with opposition-leaning voters.
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  #7 Old 05-07-2013 Default Re: PAS still too crazy

Sorry, but I think Barisan Nasional is the most racism -promoted party. Can't even believe it. Will neither love it neither vote it.
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