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  #41 Old 02-06-2012 Default Re: Abolish PTPTN?

If these people complain, protest and sit on Dataran Merdeka at the prospect of forking out RM150-RM200 a month to repay their loans, what are they going to do when they have to give away HALF their salary, which I estimate to be about RM1500-RM2000 [which is ten times as much] when they start having to pay their 50% income tax? Bakar rumah orang is it? Lagi riot-lah. >_>

Always really easy to ask for stuff. But when it comes to giving...

Lots of other grown-ups make do with having to set aside a chunk of their monthly salary to pay housing loans, or rent, or car loans, so why can't they start acting like grown-ups too? You can easily save up RM150-200 by living with your parents, eating at home, etc. A friend of mine always said that in Malaysia, you can't ever die of starvation if you really put the effort into cutting costs.
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  #42 Old 02-06-2012 Default Re: Abolish PTPTN?

Quote:
Originally Posted by henry_yew View Post
I'm just too lazy to divide the paragraphs into separate quotes, so I decided to bold the sentences I wish to address. But first of all, I share Glassy's opinions. Much to my shame, even I didn't think so far about vocational training, which I concede is just as important for people who are not cut out for university. Granted, they may not end up becoming white-collar workers (which isn't necessarily true), but blue-collar workers are just as important for the development of a nation, and we could certainly do with more SKILLED blue-collar workers.

On the issue of grads complaining about having to repay their loans with the kind of income they get, too bad. You borrowed money, you're expected to pay it back. That's what a "loan" means. But the thing is the repayment scheme is never meant to be a taxing one in the first place. Sure, it might take years to repay that loan, but if you have a steady income, is it unreasonable to pay, say, RM150 to RM200 a month? Of course, with a pay of RM2000 or RM3000 (if you are lucky enough) per month, it's difficult enough to make ends meet, but with that kind of pay, you wouldn't consider getting a house or a car in the first place. Sure, at that rate, you won't be rich any sooner, but a loan is a loan.

As for subsidised education, I can't be sure about that. But cheaper tuition in local public universities is definitely a reason why so many Malaysians prefer to study in a public university. UM, USM, UTM, UKM, UPM, etc. may not be the best universities in the world, but they are not less marketable than graduates from universities abroad, and for the same degree that foreign graduates pursued, they pay much less. You need to pay RM1 to get treatment from a government clinic - is paying a little for tertiary education really that much to ask for?

I believe that our education can create skilled workforce; it's up to the graduates themselves whether they want to put their skills to practice or not. It's also up to graduates to decide whether their degree certificate is just a piece of paper or an endorsement reflecting their technical capabilities and knowledge. Many people who graduated from their universities can say either of the following:

1. "I have graduated with a degree in Course X, but seriously I have no idea what it was all about. Somehow I managed to fool the system and get that degree so that I can just find some work to do."

2. "I have graduated with a degree in Course X and I really love what it's all about. I'm going to put it to good use in my career and hopefully come up with something novel."

Either way, money is spent. Nothing is free. Everything requires cost. You can spend money to get something that you can put to good use, or spend money and loathe spending all that money but apparently gives you no added advantage. PTPTN just gives you the financial backing to do what you want to do - if you've wasted all of it getting nothing but just that piece of paper, it's your loss, but you still need to repay that loan.
I totally agree. I think I forgot to mention, got a little skewed by the wage thing, but what you said about having the RIGHT kind of education is just as important. If we fund free education but everyone goes and just studies medicine here what's the point? We need the right proportional of vocational students, white-collar workers, industry workers, blue-collar workers, etc. Which is why I find the blanket idea of free education stupid, unless it comes with actual structural reforms in the way we handle tertiary eduation itself.

As for loan repayment, I believe they're actually quite fair about it. These aren't loan sharks or anything, the interest rate isn't very high and there isn't a hard deadline for repayment. And I also think it's kind of insulting to those who have worked hard to pay off loans in the past to just ask that their debts be written off now, especially when they already agreed to it.

Also I'm not really rapping local grads or anything, because while I think our public unis aren't very good, I believe that most of an education depends on the individual anyway. It's just that since many graduates here just aren't fulfilling market needs, it on its own doesn't justify making tertiary education free.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shuwenteo View Post
Great article about Education in Finland. And yes, it mentions that school is pretty much free for everyone. And what happened? Excellence.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...uccess/250564/
Err hello, you think their 'excellence', which I acknowledge, comes from having education free? The Finns do well academically because of their STYLE and SYSTEM of education, which de-emphasises high scores and streaming in favour of practical understanding and applications. They have a very high average, rather than other countries which have lower averages but more 'geniuses', so to speak.

Making education free won't do jack shit unless we can give people GOOD free education. Their GOOD education made their workforce grow, and gave their citizens good jobs that allowed them to pay the high taxes NEEDED to fund their free education. So get your reasoning straight.
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  #43 Old 02-06-2012 Default Re: Abolish PTPTN?

PTPTN only arose because a lot of grads were complaining about having to repay loans when they can barely afford living with the low salaries they get after graduating.


no, the problem should be grads are not paying back to PTPTN. i personally know some people who are avoiding from paying back unless PTPTN is chasing them. The government should impose stricter rule for PTPTN, like repayment via income tax percentage like other countries, then ppl can't avoid and you pay back according to your income percentage.

another thing is, our fresh grads are too spoiled. WTH, why are you all expecting the government to subsidize everything when you are paying nuts for income tax. the government have greater issues to address other than that, like servicing debt, econ growth, control inflation....

im calling this campaign BS...and the most ironic part is, its ran by the 'high intellect group' in the nation.

Last edited by quest_5692; 02-06-2012 at 10:00 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  #44 Old 02-06-2012 Default Re: Abolish PTPTN?

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Originally Posted by quest_5692 View Post
PTPTN only arose because a lot of grads were complaining about having to repay loans when they can barely afford living with the low salaries they get after graduating.


no, the problem should be grads are not paying back to PTPTN. i personally know some people who are avoiding from paying back unless PTPTN is chasing them. The government should impose stricter rule for PTPTN, like repayment via income tax percentage like other countries, then ppl can't avoid and you pay back according to your income percentage.

another thing is, our fresh grads are too spoiled. WTH, why are you all expecting the government to subsidize everything when you are paying nuts for income tax. the government have greater issues to address other than that, like servicing debt, econ growth, control inflation....

im calling this campaign BS...and the most ironic part is, its ran by the 'high intellect group' in the nation.
Yeah. Fresh grad nowadays MUST own a smartphone, MUST have data plan, MUST buy clothes from Uniqlo, MUST own a car. Seriously?

If these new kids from university can cut down their daily consumption such as teh tarik/cigarettes/beer/clubbing entrance fees etc non-sense bullshit, RM150 a month should not be a problem at all.

Those "high intellect group" must have come from "the largest university in Malaysia in terms of size and student enrollment". Go google out on that and you will know which university am I talking about.
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  #45 Old 02-06-2012 Default Re: Abolish PTPTN?

Quote:
Originally Posted by quest_5692 View Post
PTPTN only arose because a lot of grads were complaining about having to repay loans when they can barely afford living with the low salaries they get after graduating.


no, the problem should be grads are not paying back to PTPTN. i personally know some people who are avoiding from paying back unless PTPTN is chasing them. The government should impose stricter rule for PTPTN, like repayment via income tax percentage like other countries, then ppl can't avoid and you pay back according to your income percentage.

another thing is, our fresh grads are too spoiled. WTH, why are you all expecting the government to subsidize everything when you are paying nuts for income tax. the government have greater issues to address other than that, like servicing debt, econ growth, control inflation....

im calling this campaign BS...and the most ironic part is, its ran by the 'high intellect group' in the nation.
You take a loan, you pay the loan. Deal with it. There's nothing to complain. Low salary? That's not PTPTN's problem.

Granted, that might be perceived as unfair to fresh grads, but PTPTN isn't asking you to pay them back in one lump sum. And with RM2500 to RM3000 a month of salary (assumed), one should be able to organize their finances properly. Be real, fresh grads aren't 12-year-olds anymore; they should be matured enough to be able to manage their finances somewhat. If they're going to spend their RM2500 on a car, a house, a Samsung Galaxy, Hard Rock Cafe everyday, etc. even a person earning RM10000 a month would go bankrupt.

But if you're a careful spender, this is an example of how RM2500 can be enough:

1. Rental of a room (say, in Taman Paramount/Wangsa Maju Alpha Condo) - RM450 per month (grossly estimated)
2. Internet access (Streamyx/Maxis/Celcom) - RM66 per month
3. Utilities (electricity & water) - RM50 per month
4. Breakfast (at RM3.00 per month), Lunch & Dinner (at RM4.50 each per month) - RM360 per month; let's make it RM500 per month
5. Transportation (LRT, Bus, etc.) - RM120 per month (estimated for monthly pass)
6. Entertainment (Cinema, Malaysian Philharmonic Orchestra, etc.) - RM150 (overestimated; this is like watching five MPO shows) per month

Total expenditures thus far: RM1336
Balance: RM1164

Loan repayment for PTPTN: RM200 per month
Nett balance: RM964

So even with a pay of RM1800 (which I take to be very low especially if you're a degree holder - I personally think you'd deserve better), you can still cover all your expenses and have a few hundred ringgit for contingency every month. And I think I have at least covered most of what a fresh grad working in Kuala Lumpur would want/need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by day_dreamer View Post
Those "high intellect group" must have come from "the largest university in Malaysia in terms of size and student enrollment". Go google out on that and you will know which university am I talking about.
I already know what university that is without Googling.
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  #46 Old 02-06-2012 Default Re: Abolish PTPTN?

a friend of mine from Ipoh studying in UM now, stays in ss14, spends only rm500 per month including of transport, food and accommodation.
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  #47 Old 02-06-2012 Default Re: Abolish PTPTN?

Following some of the arguments posted here, I'm getting the feeling that whatever rich countries do, we necessarily need to follow their lead.
Some of their policies are undoubtedly good, but some aren't.

I'm skeptical of the benefits from government guaranteed loans provided in the US. Even if they do provide a significant amount of help, does it help their country to progress?

On Finland, here's an article as well.
http://mises.org/daily/4655
While I would like to believe everything I read, this article is biased and went a bit over the top. Just look at the institute that publishes it - Austrian School- for evidence of bias.

In short, the discussion here had been great. But, it would be better if we be wary of the usefulness of some policies even if they were adopted in a rich country.
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  #48 Old 02-06-2012 Default Re: Abolish PTPTN?

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Originally Posted by shuwenteo View Post
It's very "narrow-minded" for you to say "We have loan waivers for top students." But hey, the rest have rights too. Especially during these tough economic times! Many of you chose to blame those that want free education and ignore the fact that CORRUPTION costs this nation a hundred times the amount of all our welfare programs put together. I would rather my tax $$ go to free education for poor students than to the pockets of corrupt officials or cronies.

Do you think that young people actually have a role to play in nation building? I believe a country doesn't progress by acknowledging "top students" like that. Obviously we them. But, the only way a country will progress, other than having a vast resource of talents and commodities, is through their selfless contribution.


You do realize that Finland gets consistently high ratings in international surveys on corruption? Historically, most of these countries have progressive taxes, i.e. lower tax rates at low income level, and increasing gradually with increasing income.

First off, you have to realize that university tuition fees in Malaysia is ridiculously low to begin with. A typical undergraduate degree in a public Malaysian university costs less than RM6,000 per semester while in America, public schools charge anywhere from USD10-20k per semester. Now, compare this to our average household income of about RM3,000 per month- that means a semester's worth of tuition can be covered by 2 months worth of wages. In America, the monthly household income is in the region of about USD4,000 and you will realize that education in the states is far less subsidized than in Malaysia.

http://www.ukm.my/v3/index.php?optio...id=316&lang=en

As a whole, Malaysia actually has better equity of education than America.

As far as taxes are concerned, Malaysia also employs a progressive taxation system with tax exemption for the lowest income brackets, much like Finland. Even with a progressive taxation system, Finnish people still pay more income tax on average (almost 30%) than Malaysia (12-19%). Heck, our highest tax bracket (26%) is still lower than Finland's AVERAGE tax. So unless you are willing to pay up to 50% more taxes, you have nothing to support you as far as free education and taxation is concerned.

http://www.hasil.gov.my/goindex.php?...t=5000&sequ=11
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxatio...veroaste2010-3

Corruption is an irrelevant point here. Regardless of whether corruption is rampant or not, education cannot be free unless we raise taxes. Otherwise, why would a clean and non-corrupt country like Finland still charge high taxes? Since you claim that corruption is a major barrier to free education, why are clean countries like Australia and Finland still charging high taxes for education subsidies?

Quote:
Wow, great! Do I have a shot at those scholarships? What I like, though, is that I do have an equal chance of winning.
JPA gave you a scholarship to study in English and you rejected it. What's your point?

Quote:
The Star Online > Nation
Saturday June 11, 2011
Lawyer to sue Khazanah for denying son scholarship
By NG CHENG YEE

KUALA LUMPUR: A man wants to sue Khazanah Nasional Bhd, Yayasan Khazanah and its director after his son failed to get a scholarship offered by the foundation and the Cambridge Commonwealth Trust.
Lawyer Chan Chow Wang, 67, said he was planning to retire and personally funding son Xiao Yao’s studies would be a huge financial burden.
He also did not understand why Yayasan Khazanah had rejected the application as Xiao Yao had on Jan 5 received a conditional offer for a place at the University of Cambridge.
Yayasan Khazanah works with the Cambridge Commonwealth Trust to offer the Khazanah Cambridge Scholarship to students who have gained admission to the university through the usual application route.
Xiao Yao is scheduled to do his BA Honours degree in Chemical Engineering via Natural Sciences. The course starts in October.
Chan said that when he appealed to the foundation and asked for an explanation for the rejection, all he got was a letter telling him that the competition for the scholarship programme was very stiff.
He added that he would file a suit against the three parties because of the embarrassment, anguish and depression caused to his son.
“I will also lodge a complaint with the Malaysian Anti-Corruption Commission and request it to investigate the scholarship programme,” he said at a press conference yesterday.
Chan said the tuition fee for his son’s first-year study was 18,000 (about RM89,000) while the college fee was 4,462.50 (about RM22,000).
“With living expenses, my son will need about RM150,000 a year for this four-year degree programme and it is a huge sum of money,” he said.
Chan said it would be difficult for him to fund his son’s education as he was planning to retire in two years.
He had also funded the education of his four children, including Xian Yao’s education up to A-level.
I can't believe you brought this point up. This is ridiculous middle-class, self-entitlement. A scholarship, by nature, is LIMITED. You are NEVER entitled to a scholarship. NEVER. You can apply and hope you to receive it but to sue from rejection is the most myopic, egocentric, bigoted action anyone can possibly perform. So he got an offer to study at Cambridge and has no money? Big deal. He's not the only person with a good university offer. It's not like he's being denied an education altogether- he could've easily studied in Malaysia and still be successful. The government doesn't owe him anything, Cambridge or not.
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  #49 Old 02-06-2012 Default Re: Abolish PTPTN?

Well... My thoughts on this issue?

Students take this loan unnecessarily. Based on my own experience, I studied at UiTM Kedah Campus. Ours is a kampung campus, 15 mins from Sungai Petani, 40+ mins from Penang. So the cost of living is relatively very low eg RM4 for lunch with drinks, max RM12 daily breakfast, lunch and dinner, RM250 per month partially furnished house, shared with friends. And the best of all, UiTM's fee starts at RM400 up to RM500+ from foundation level to bachelor level, free accommodation for those who are active in co-curriculum, eligible to apply for food allowance around RM200 per month but restricted to few conditions (household income etc), and lastly entitled for zakat (for Muslim students).

So with those conveniences in hand, you might think that it's cheap and affordable right? Well, no... almost 80% of the students here take the PTPTN loans. Quite a proportion of students come from central region (KL and Selangor) which have higher cost of living yet these students take the loan. Do you think that it is necessary? If could survive KL without a loan, how you could NOT survive anywhere else in Malaysia? I hear everyday students here complaining that how they are going to pay the loan in the future etc. It makes me sick really when the fact that most of them can actually afford the fees and opted to take the loans for what? For gadgets, iPad, data plan, clothes, travelling (due to our close proximity to Penang), lavish life etc. I myself on the other hand come from Alor Setar, self-funded since my parents thought it is unnecessary for me to take the loan.. So yeah..
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  #50 Old 02-06-2012 Default Re: Abolish PTPTN?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shuwenteo View Post
To put things in proper perspective, I must point out that there is another side to the apparently high tax rates. Let me explain.

Take a closer look at this list... what do you notice?
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/thes...ome-tax-rates/

Almost all of the countries (except maybe one or two) in the list are developed countries or more developed countries, not only on economic parameters, but also on the more qualitative Human Development parameters. So, is there a correlation?

To complete the picture, one should also consider what a taxpayer gets in return for such high tax rates. OK, say I'm taxed at 30%, but in return, I get good public transport, good public healthcare, good education, good pension system, and fair and equal treatment. I will be happy to pay.

But if I'm taxed at 10%, and I do not get any of them, I will be compelled to arrange for them on my own. OK, say my children can't get a decent elementary education, so I'm forced to pay for modern equipment and facilities. In the end, who is to lose?
What do you mean 'forced to pay'? Nobody is forcing you to pay anything. If the education standard in public school is not to your liking, the ship your kid to a private school with that 20% tax that you theoretically saved. If private school is too expensive, then study in a public school! The government is not compelled to provide 'modern equipment and facilities' or the best education services available, they are responsible for providing equitable and affordable education for the masses.

Ultimately, Malaysia is still a developing country and we are ultimately restricted by our economy. What you are expecting from the government in the form of free and high-quality education is present in very, VERY few countries. This is a milestone I hope Malaysia will eventually achieve but to expect it now is ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shuwenteo View Post


Did I mention anything about JPA in that article? Just because I said gov't, it doesn't mean that the agency is JPA.


All I wanna stress is that they're not transparent. I smell something fishy. lol
It doesn't matter which body awarded the scholarship, the point is that generous financial aid is available. Yes, the scholarship system is deeply flawed but to say you 'don't have a shot' when a single government body awards in excess of 2,000 COMPREHENSIVE scholarships per annum (at least when it was around) is quite ridiculous. Of course, the entire system is unfair and biased and all that jazz, and I'd much rather the government channel the money elsewhere but the point is, aid is not as non-existent as you make it out to be.
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