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Abolish PTPTN?

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shuwenteo
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  #1 Old 14-04-2012 Default Abolish PTPTN?

Mod's Note: I have moved posts with regards to PTPTN out of Shuwenteo's Political Empire into this thread to consolidate the discussions. The original post of this thread is quoted and can be found by clicking on the original post link in the quote:
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Originally Posted by weixiang View Post
Pakatan Rakyat and Anwar Ibrahim in particular, pledged to abolish PTPTN if they get elected to Putrajaya. According to Anwar, this can be done through prudent spending and corruption-free governance.

While I agree that there are lots of wastages and excessive spending by the current government (as pointed out in the Auditor General annual reports), the main question is SHOULD we abolish PTPTN?

Why can't the money saved be spent on something else like building more public amenities for example? If free university education translates into lower quality of both lecturers and students, is it worth it?

We have enough crutches right now with all the subsidies and hand-outs. Let's stop adding more.
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Some 500 university students have taken to the streets of Kuala Lumpur to demand the abolition of National Higher Education Fund (PTPTN), a national scholarship scheme which they deemed exploitative. Read more: http://malaysiakini.com/news/195014 (English) / http://malaysiakini.com/news/195008 (Malay)

See the photos at https://picasaweb.google.com/1021710...52961336227298

Last edited by vseehua; 16-04-2012 at 10:33 AM.
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  #2 Old 15-04-2012 Default Re: ShuWenTeo's Political Empire

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Originally Posted by shuwenteo View Post

Some 500 university students have taken to the streets of Kuala Lumpur to demand the abolition of National Higher Education Fund (PTPTN), a national scholarship scheme which they deemed exploitative. Read more: http://malaysiakini.com/news/195014 (English) / http://malaysiakini.com/news/195008 (Malay)

See the photos at https://picasaweb.google.com/1021710...52961336227298
Sigh... says who that PTPTN is a scholarship provider?

And I don't understand how it is exploitative.

When the government provides loans (either at no interest or at very low interest rates) for students to pursue their tertiary education, I would think that the least they could do is to be happy that they could still get funding. Our public universities do not charge high fees, if compared to private ones. And I don't see why it is not fair for students to have to pay for their tertiary education.

I'm sick and tired of seeing how all these issues can be potentially (or are already) politicised.
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  #3 Old 15-04-2012 Default Re: ShuWenTeo's Political Empire

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Sigh... says who that PTPTN is a scholarship provider?

And I don't understand how it is exploitative.

When the government provides loans (either at no interest or at very low interest rates) for students to pursue their tertiary education, I would think that the least they could do is to be happy that they could still get funding. Our public universities do not charge high fees, if compared to private ones. And I don't see why it is not fair for students to have to pay for their tertiary education.

I'm sick and tired of seeing how all these issues can be potentially (or are already) politicised.
Agreed. Free (or close to free) education can only be achieved via very high tax rates but if the government increases taxes, we'll have riots on our hands. Catch-22 much? For once, I actually empathize with the ruling coalition. But watudo, elections are coming so everyone is making noise.
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  #4 Old 15-04-2012 Default Re: ShuWenTeo's Political Empire

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Originally Posted by henry_yew View Post
Sigh... says who that PTPTN is a scholarship provider?

And I don't understand how it is exploitative.

When the government provides loans (either at no interest or at very low interest rates) for students to pursue their tertiary education, I would think that the least they could do is to be happy that they could still get funding. Our public universities do not charge high fees, if compared to private ones. And I don't see why it is not fair for students to have to pay for their tertiary education.

I'm sick and tired of seeing how all these issues can be potentially (or are already) politicised.
I think the big problem they have (other than that same false sense of entitlement that lots of students have these days) is that they graduate, and before they can find a job they're already in debt and if they want a house they'll be bankrupt.

The problem is that they blame PTPTN for this - the real issue is that housing prices among other things are going up like crazy, while wages aren't keeping up.

But I have to agree with you. What's wrong with loans? Everyone wants a free education, sure - but easier said than done. Loans are perfectly legitimate. It's not the most desirable thing but these students wouldn't be able to study otherwise. No one wants to pay off loans but the alternative, as Young mentioned, is pretty untenable at this time. They'll be asking for free health care next...
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  #5 Old 15-04-2012 Default Re: ShuWenTeo's Political Empire

I have to say as well, that the opposition is starting to promise things that looks like will lead us down the path of Greece. At a time when even Germany had to admit that it couldn't sustain giving free tertiary education to its citizens despite its high taxes, we have to make our moves wisely.

On the same topic, asking PTPTN to write off their loans is not too different from the directors of NFC refusing to return the loans they took from the government. Both rob the people from getting a better life that they very much deserve, and it doesn't matter whether it is 24 million or 24 billion.
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  #6 Old 15-04-2012 Default Abolish PTPTN?

Pakatan Rakyat and Anwar Ibrahim in particular, pledged to abolish PTPTN if they get elected to Putrajaya. According to Anwar, this can be done through prudent spending and corruption-free governance.

While I agree that there are lots of wastages and excessive spending by the current government (as pointed out in the Auditor General annual reports), the main question is SHOULD we abolish PTPTN?

Why can't the money saved be spent on something else like building more public amenities for example? If free university education translates into lower quality of both lecturers and students, is it worth it?

We have enough crutches right now with all the subsidies and hand-outs. Let's stop adding more.
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  #7 Old 15-04-2012 Default Re: Abolish PTPTN?

Quote:
Originally Posted by weixiang View Post
Pakatan Rakyat and Anwar Ibrahim in particular, pledged to abolish PTPTN if they get elected to Putrajaya. According to Anwar, this can be done through prudent spending and corruption-free governance.

While I agree that there are lots of wastages and excessive spending by the current government (as pointed out in the Auditor General annual reports), the main question is SHOULD we abolish PTPTN?

Why can't the money saved be spent on something else like building more public amenities for example? If free university education translates into lower quality of both lecturers and students, is it worth it?

We have enough crutches right now with all the subsidies and hand-outs. Let's stop adding more.
Abolishing the loan might sound good on the surface, little did we know about human nature: we will least appreciate things that come too easy. In this case, I mean the opportunity for tertiary education.

I believe that abolishing the loan might bring in short term happiness within the community but in the long run, I ain't sure if we will be a more competitive nation.

Youngsters will not be debt-free/achieve financial freedom if they do not change their habits. Something to ponder.
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  #8 Old 16-04-2012 Default Re: ShuWenTeo's Political Empire

The thing is that we can't expect everything to be given to us freely just because we're so-called taxpayers. There's a limit to how much the government can fund things. And just as Young has pointed, you can't get one thing without sacrificing the other. If you want free education, you can't sacrifice raising taxes. Likewise, if you want cheaper cars, then the fuel subsidy will have to go.

If being taxpayers meant that you can make whatever demands, then the Americans would have been the first ones to make absurd demands. But the fact is that even the Americans have to get bank loans to fund their tertiary education. And if they receive scholarships (depending on the amount) or take up a part-time employment, they will have to pay income taxes. Comparatively speaking, our Malaysian students' predicament is no predicament at all - if you can get a scholarship, well done! The scholarship pays for your tuition, your lodging, your expenses, etc. The Internal Revenue Board can't tax you for that. Or you've got a PTPTN loan, hooray! 90% of your financial troubles are fixed. Or if you're more hardworking, you decide to do a part-time job while studying. That kind of income is not taxable.

Elsewhere, EVERYTHING is taxable, even your scholarship is.

So, apa lagi yang kau nak?

The only problem about PTPTN is that they seem to be losing a lot of money because of loan recovery issues. But if the protest against PTPTN is because of this, then it's similar to saying that we should ban knives because they can be used to murder someone.

So, exploitation? How? PTPTN never forced students to take up its loans. Students themselves OPT to take PTPTN loans, and if you want to take up that loan, you abide by its conditions. If you don't agree to its conditions, don't take it.

Edit: Having experienced myself what it is like to be an international student in a country where students have to pay taxes for receiving part-time employment or scholarships (despite being students, where the general impression is that students don't have a stable income in the first place) makes me more appreciative of the fact that Malaysia does not have this kind of policies in place.
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Last edited by henry_yew; 16-04-2012 at 11:59 AM.
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  #9 Old 16-04-2012 Default Re: Abolish PTPTN?

i am dead again abolishing PTPTN loan....

1) There are only 2.4 millions taxpayer over a total population of 28 Million in this country. To put it bluntly, every 1 taxpayer has to shoulder 10 non tax-paying individual ( be it children, old aged pensioner, low income earner + a lot of Free Riders who do not wish to pay their share of taxation). Ironically every time politicians give away some goodies, the 10 Free Riders will cheer on and the extra burden is going to levy on the 1 tax-payer. Statistically, the irresponsible politician will preferred to earn the popular support of the 10 free-riders than the 1 tiresome taxpayer. Cancelling PTPTN will only means that the poor taxpayer will hv to cough out more in future.

2) In any developed nation, you need abt 30% - 35% of the workforce receiving tertiary education, any higher proportion will means the graduate might not hv a job and end up driving taxi or waiting table as seen in the western world. If tertiary education become free, more parents will push their children to get into universities and even more will end up as unemployed after graduation. Then they will AGAIN blame the govt for not providing enough employment opportunity for them and the taxpayer will too blame the govt for wastefully spending their tax money financing university graduate who worked as taxi-drivers or waiters.

As it is now, every year there are already 40,000 to 50,000 graduate who failed to secure any job 12 months after graduation, partly due to their poor command of English or poor attitude among other reasons. Are we going to flood the market with more sub-standard graduate ??

Last edited by littlewheatgrass; 16-04-2012 at 07:00 PM.
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  #10 Old 16-04-2012 Default Re: Abolish PTPTN?

^Exactly. I don't think the goal of free education is impossible completely, but right now it's not the best thing. It's not solving the other root problems, so to speak.

For free education, you need higher taxes. To justify levying higher taxes, you need more people paying taxes, and taxpayers who earn more. To do that you have to drive wage growth.

To do that we'll need a high-skill work force, and that comes through - education. Almost a catch-22 but it isn't, really.

First off PTPTN should at least be reformed, let's give people that. It's implementation does not sound perfect at all, if it can't get its repayments. But to abolish it completely - I don't think anyone can confirm that money lost through corruption and oil revenues can sustainably pay the bills for education over the long-term.
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