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libraaa Female
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  #1 Old 24-11-2011 Default Baby Dumping

what are your opinions about baby dumping?

how is abandon different from dumping?

what about abortion? is abortion the same as dumping?

in my view, for abortion cases, babies are not even given a chance to be born and they're killed.


majority will be against the act of baby dumping. however is it acceptable in the case of a girl who got raped?
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  #2 Old 24-11-2011 Default Re: baby dumping

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Originally Posted by libraaa View Post
what are your opinions about baby dumping?

how is abandon different from dumping?

what about abortion? is abortion the same as dumping?

in my view, for abortion cases, babies are not even given a chance to be born and they're killed.


majority will be against the act of baby dumping. however is it acceptable in the case of a girl who got raped?
1. I don't really approve of baby dumping.

2. Other than petty semantics, I don't think there is a difference.

3. Abortion is not the same as abandoning a child. Most abortions are performed on embryos (<8 weeks) rather than on a foetus, in which case the embryo has no consciousness or perception of pain. This makes abortions far more humane than infanticide.

I don't think you can equate abortions to murder/killing because the embryo/foetus is NOT a fully formed human being. Human potential is not equivalent to a fully-formed human being because if that were true, every drop of semen spilt or ovum unfertilized would be tantamount to genocide.

So yes, in this sense, abortion is actually preferable to dumping.

4. It takes a very demented person to condemn a raped girl to forcibly bring her illegitimate child to term.
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  #3 Old 24-11-2011 Default Re: baby dumping

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Originally Posted by libraaa View Post
what are your opinions about baby dumping?

how is abandon different from dumping?

what about abortion? is abortion the same as dumping?

in my view, for abortion cases, babies are not even given a chance to be born and they're killed.


majority will be against the act of baby dumping. however is it acceptable in the case of a girl who got raped?
Haha, is this a humanities/social studies research project ? Or STPM Pengajian Am ?

1. My general opinion is that I do not agree with baby dumping. Quite obvious that anyone with a working conscious will tell you that

2. Honestly, I would literally take them both as the same. However, doing a Google search, it seems that articles on infanticide also seem to pop up under the same search field. So, my guess is that dumping is with the intent of murder hence infanticide being a synonym for it.

3. Abortion is not the same as dumping because they are carried out at different life cycles of a young human life.

Abortion is principally terminating the life of an unborn fetus. As far as the medical drama I am keeping up with, the doctor is a very objective one. I sorta share my view with him, that is a baby is not the same as a fetus. Fetus is technically a mass of undifferentiated (or almost completely, depending which stage of pregnancy) cells. The doctor also debates frequently with his patients that there is no harm to abort (i.e. elements of murder) because it is only a living organism that does not have the higher brain function to interpret pain or a conscious sense of it's existence. That much I disagree slightly, because I just read from Googling that studies have shown that fetuses do show indication of pain if they are aborted after 20 weeks of pregnancy (i.e. end of 2nd trimester) , around the time when the area of brain that interprets pain (i.e. cortical area) is developed.

Dumping is without a doubt murder to me. What I believe is that, a baby born into the world is a genuine human life, because it can feel pain and that has attained self-awareness of the environment plus with a very primitive sense of existence. Another aspect is that leaving a baby to fend for itself remarks a lack of concern for human life for possible harms that may be inflicted upon the defenseless infant. Philosophically and medically, these should be the main reasons to claim dumping is equivalent to killing. From the legal view, I would say it is technically murder because of a few present elements of murder common to the legal definition of murder. Malice, of another human being and unlawful. A clear principle in malice is that there is the intention to cause bodily harm that may lead to death or death itself. Although youths who dump claim they 'love' their 'child' so much, that they do not want them to suffer a life with an unprepared parent, it doesn't defeat the stand that malice presents. Their actions imply that there is not other lawful and rational way to end the potential suffering of their child, when there is.

4. Fetuses, like I have expressed above, lack the consciousness and interpretation of pain to be deemed as a human life. Thus, aborting a fetus that is below 20 weeks old is still acceptable. In a medical perspective, it would deemed principally the same as removing a parasitic cyst or an benign tumor. You should justify it is only murder when the fetus is older than that stipulated time frame, since there are studies online to show for it.

I also cannot phrase it any better myself than what Young has said regarding human potential's comparison to that of fully-formed human beings

5. Let's make an assumption that the fetus is below 20 weeks old, because obviously, it does not take very long to report that you have been raped nor to be noticed by your closest people that you have been outraged of your modesty. I will also take it you mean abortion instead of dumping the baby. In that circumstance yes.

For one thing, it is denying the right of a person to choose whatever she wants to do with her body. As explained, a fetus that young would be no different than just an extra body part. So, denying her the right to abort is also denying her bodily autonomy.

The other is that, it would be denying her of a chance to live out the rest of her childhood normally. A child should not be unfairly pushed into the realm of motherhood just because something happened to her that she never wished for.

My view is that, 2 circumstances of unfairness arises in this situation. First is that the girl is forced to understand motherhood beyond what she is only capable of understanding at her age. Motherhood isn't always something that can be thought, it is a maternal instinct (i.e. a heightened concern for human life) that comes about with age and experience living with other humans. Second is that it would endanger the human potential the fetus might turn out to be once born because of the unfit 'family' it will be born into, thus another aspect of 'waste of human life'.

The reason why I won't support if we did not assume dumping was instead abortion is that, I don't find any common logic in saying that the decision to end the life only comes after 9 months of deliberating the decision whether or not to terminate. Another is that if you don't make a decision, the parents will eventually find out (come on, who can miss a pregnant female ?) and make the decision for her.

Of course, if she wanted to keep the baby, then it was born and suddenly did not want the baby, there is no easy way to prove she is not guilty of murder.

Even if our initial assumption about the age of the fetus did not hold, the second reason I gave should be more than enough to convince people why the victim of rape should be given a chance to abort.
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Last edited by frostbyte13; 24-11-2011 at 10:31 PM.
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  #4 Old 25-11-2011 Default Re: baby dumping

I'm more curious about legal aspect of the issue.

I'm sure abortion is definitely not punishable by death in Malaysia.

What about so-called baby dumping? Is leaving a new-born unsupervised for a prolonged period resulting in death (which is what baby-dumping means?) equivalent to murder or gross negligence? If it is not murder, what about say, leaving your 2-year-old child at home until he/she starved to death? What about 3-year-old? When and how did it become murder?

I'm against prosecuting women who dump their babies under Section 302 (Murder) of the Penal code, but I still can't come up with a coherent argument. It has something to do with gender equality I guess. If we are to make women responsible for a biological consequence of sex, why not we make men almost equally responsible as well? Can we, say, make it mandatory for men to ascertain whether the women with whom they have had sex are pregnant, and if so, should "follow-up" the whole pregnancy and bear the relevant costs? Just saying.
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  #5 Old 25-11-2011 Default Re: Baby Dumping

A slight digression here: If you see people with debilitating mental illness secondary to childhood traumas, you would realise that domestic or sexual abuse of children destroys lives in worse way than murder. Those people, despite being alive, lives with a psychological pathology all their life. Yet most child abuse perpetrators either never get caught or get away with minimal jail time, when I feel that their sin is probably worse than say killing another human being. If you find my opinion unconscionable, ask yourself: would you rather be killed or be tortured for years?
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  #6 Old 25-11-2011 Default Re: baby dumping

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Originally Posted by Cactus View Post

If we are to make women responsible for a biological consequence of sex, why not we make men almost equally responsible as well? Can we, say, make it mandatory for men to ascertain whether the women with whom they have had sex are pregnant, and if so, should "follow-up" the whole pregnancy and bear the relevant costs? Just saying.
Isn't that already in place in the form of child support and maintenance?
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  #7 Old 25-11-2011 Default Re: baby dumping

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Isn't that already in place in the form of child support and maintenance?
I thought that is the case only if the man is legally married to woman? Not sure.

The point I'm trying to make is that if women are to be prosecuted for baby-dumping, what about the men?
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  #8 Old 25-11-2011 Default Re: baby dumping

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I'm more curious about legal aspect of the issue.

I'm sure abortion is definitely not punishable by death in Malaysia.

What about so-called baby dumping? Is leaving a new-born unsupervised for a prolonged period resulting in death (which is what baby-dumping means?) equivalent to murder or gross negligence? If it is not murder, what about say, leaving your 2-year-old child at home until he/she starved to death? What about 3-year-old? When and how did it become murder?

I'm against prosecuting women who dump their babies under Section 302 (Murder) of the Penal code, but I still can't come up with a coherent argument. It has something to do with gender equality I guess. If we are to make women responsible for a biological consequence of sex, why not we make men almost equally responsible as well? Can we, say, make it mandatory for men to ascertain whether the women with whom they have had sex are pregnant, and if so, should "follow-up" the whole pregnancy and bear the relevant costs? Just saying.
I personally would think neither case would be considered Murder - following the action/inaction rule

Using the wikipedia definition of murder
"Murder is the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another human being"

If you take a knife to kill someone - you're doing an action to kill him --> murder
If you leave someone to drown(starve), without having acted --> cannot be considered murder.

So back to baby dumping, it can be argued that it fails
"Killing" - Leaving a baby to die != killing. Even if you left it in the corner, you did not actually end that life - it ended due to lack of food/shelter/care etc.
"Malice aforethought" - Planning to end the life != Wanted to get rid of a burden.
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  #9 Old 25-11-2011 Default Re: baby dumping

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I personally would think neither case would be considered Murder - following the action/inaction rule

Using the wikipedia definition of murder
"Murder is the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another human being"

If you take a knife to kill someone - you're doing an action to kill him --> murder
If you leave someone to drown(starve), without having acted --> cannot be considered murder.

So back to baby dumping, it can be argued that it fails
"Killing" - Leaving a baby to die != killing. Even if you left it in the corner, you did not actually end that life - it ended due to lack of food/shelter/care etc.
"Malice aforethought" - Planning to end the life != Wanted to get rid of a burden.
I don't think the example you have given is appropriate. Leaving a random someone to drown/starve is not the nicest thing to do but still permissible because you have no legal responsibility to care for said person. A parent leaving his/her child to starve, on the other hand, does have legal, moral and ethical repercussions. It may not be murder in the sense that the parent did not drive a knife/bullet through the baby's heart, but the death is still an effect of their conduct.

Baby dumping is at the very least, homicidal negligence.
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  #10 Old 26-11-2011 Default Re: Baby Dumping

But there's nothing in the definition of murder about ethical/legal responsibility - those come other separate terms (negligence, gross misconduct, child abuse etc)

hm.

But you have a point : wonder whether this situation is considered murder?

Dad watches daughter slip and fall into a swimming pool. Dad does nothing. Girl drowns to death.

Last edited by eve88; 26-11-2011 at 07:23 AM.
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