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Bersih 3.0 Rally

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quest_5692 Male
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  #31 Old 19-04-2012 Default Re: Bersih 3.0 Rally

Quote:
Originally Posted by shuwenteo View Post
Oh, really? What are you, then? As I see it, you're just somebody who is on their high horse and ignores the plight or predicament of someone else.

I am DAP(ian). Coming to terms with this aspect of my identity has helped me to see more clearly -- the ways in which I have been denied the right to vote, legally discriminated against in employment and access to education -- forms of discrimination that we supposedly left behind. I see now that "they" are me, and I am them.
Ignore?

If we were to ignore, we wouldnt have questioned the pledges. Some of the forumers were confused and asked some questions. You could have answered them directly. However, it seemed like you were dodging the critical questions and post some irrelevant image and videos instead. I.e. someone ask me why I eat fish for dinner, I shouldnt answer with some charts and documentaries of the rivers in Canada.

who is the one that is ignoring all the questions in her own political threads? Or were you expecting everyone else to support your thread blindly? Those who doesn't (including confused/neutral party) will be categorized as 'ignoring the pledge of the commoner'

what does it mean by being a DAP-ian? supporting all their causes without even thinking if it is right or wrong? Faith is blind, no matter in politics or religion. One should never tie himself to a particular party and follow their general direction. We should evaluate every issue differently, sometimes party A is right, sometimes party B is right. Thats why in some countries, they have 20+ political parties (netherlands) and in some, they dont let politicians make national decisions (direct democracy). There are no perfect party in the world that stand on the 'right' side everytime, not to mention it is hard to define what is right, what is wrong. There will always be bad leaders who misuse their influence to mislead the commoner to satisfy their personal agenda. Yes, you can say there are such people in our current governor, but the same can be said to the oppositions. There are a lot of issues which DAP could have avoid from politicalizing it. Malaysians tend to rely on political power to change something but that is not the only way. Politic is flawed itself.

Last edited by quest_5692; 19-04-2012 at 04:33 PM.
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  #32 Old 19-04-2012 Default Re: Bersih 3.0 Rally

Quote:
Originally Posted by shuwenteo View Post
Oh, really? What are you, then? As I see it, you're just somebody who is on their high horse and ignores the plight or predicament of someone else.

I am DAP(ian). Coming to terms with this aspect of my identity has helped me to see more clearly -- the ways in which I have been denied the right to vote, legally discriminated against in employment and access to education -- forms of discrimination that we supposedly left behind. I see now that "they" are me, and I am them.
I dun knw u tat well bt i think that u hv been a victim of discrimination. Tat's y u seemed 2 post a lot of photos n videos 2 increase d awareness. No 1 here are discriminating you here. Like what d mods hv said, u hv ur freedom of speech bt u hv learn 2 use it wisely.

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Originally Posted by Cactus View Post
I admire all of you for your willingness and eagerness to engage in discussion with Shuwenteo. Since she is not replying, why not we proceed with whatever discussion we wish to have instead of criticizing her repeatedly?
Ya, u r rite. I think tat d posts should be moved 2 another thread (probably titled, freedom of speech or something) as v r far frm d topic bersih 3.0.
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  #33 Old 20-04-2012 Default Re: Bersih 3.0 Rally

What's your point?
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czhong Male
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  #34 Old 25-04-2012 Default Re: Bersih 3.0 Rally

i see no useful discussion in this thread. Over-politicized posts and comments. =)
No matter what, a clean and fair election is what we needed. nuff said.

"A government afraid of its citizens is a Democracy. Citizens afraid of government is tyranny" -
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nicholas93 Male
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  #35 Old 27-04-2012 Default Re: Bersih 3.0 Rally

see you guys tomorrow!
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  #36 Old 28-04-2012 Default Re: Bersih 3.0 Rally

Hmmm... People believe what they want to believe, people want to see what they want to see. And IMO, Bersih is not something that people should believe in. I think we here as students are being corrupted by the opposition to help them achieve their political mission of taking over the country. This do not only apply to Bersih but also to anti-PTPTN movement, rally or something. It was clear that PTPTN is there for a good cause, not for the bad.

Also, I dont think by having this clean electoral movement or whatever you guys called it is not the brightest and most effective way to transform your government/country. I think the key problem to an ineffective and corrupted Malaysia is ourselves. Yes, you are to be blame, including me, every single one of us. This applies to those in the government AND in the opposition AS WELL as the rest of the citizens. We are not first-class minded citizens, we can't even dispose rubbish at proper places, the attitude of gov servants serving the citizens, we refuse to pay back PTPTN loans although we are aware that it is a loan etc.

Policies are there, good policies by the gov are already been derived and they were here for good cause. But the people implementing the policies (which is us!) at the lower level corrupted the resources given. I dont think it is the government's fault. If we were to change the prime minister and the whole government to PR with the same lower level staff doing the same job, the result is still the same; corrupted government. An easy example, I bet some of us exploit papers provided by the gov to your parents' gov offices to photocopy your certs, results etc to apply for gov scholarship... haha how? Another example, textbook provided in gov schools are not being taken care properly by the students because they are free and students refuse to take responsibility.

So in short, I dont really agree to Bersih, just some maybe. But the ultimate goal for Malaysians to achieve to have a first class minded society and act like one. Having this kind of rally is a waste of time. Today should be the day where family gathers and enjoy each other's company.
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  #37 Old 28-04-2012 Default Re: Bersih 3.0 Rally

1st of all, I do agree you that there're people corrupted by the opposition to achieve political goal BUT what's wrong with that if the initiative is CORRECT and in the right direction to move country forward. I don't see problem demanding a fair and clean election.

2nd, students are the future leaders. THEY are the one should go for these rally and events. As student, we should not only stay in our own box with books. We, too, should critically think about what happened around us and decide what's right and what is wrong AND, most importantly, figure out what to do with it. Only this the future leaders of our country are able to push us forward.

3rd, YES, this is the thing that I agree with you. I totally think that Tertiary education should not be free. If so, the universities will have no money to do research and improve on their facilities. PTPTN is there for a reason and it is to help the poor to get into universities. And they are, then, responsible to pay back. BUT then, I must say the education system in universities should change to meritocratic system in order to achieve higher level of education. It has been years that the talented one rejected from the local universities. They should only accept those who achieve the targeted results. I've friend who got 5A in STPM but get no place in medicine. There's someone get 2 or 3A or even no A get into it.

4th, what makes you think that it's useless or not efficient. At the very least, it will raise the awareness and remind people what is the problem happening. IF everyone laid back and relax without bothering what's happening, then our country will gone in few ten years. Be reminded that sacrifice must be made in order to achieve something.

5th, this is kind of generalization. Not all people do the same thing that you do like the photocopying business and the textbook problem and corrupted. I believe this is strongly related to education given and the culture we are in and, of course, law enforcement. At least, my friends and I will not do these. We even self-return our McDonald tray. So what is wrong?? it is that the education system in our country makes us think that there will always someone gonna clean our stuff/clean our rubbish. In fact, no one gonna do that because everyone is thinking the same thing. This is what happen when students without critical thinking.

Finally, I STRONGLY SUPPORT in BERSIH. If it's not them, who will stand out and voice out the problem. Will you?? If it's not them, who will be able to bring together races to fight for the same cause. Will you?? Having such rally is not a waste of time. Because we know, deep in us, it is for our future and country. YES, one of it is to have a first class minded society and act like one. SO, please be the 1st one in your group to be such and eventually affect others by being such. Maybe you wanna start by not throwing rubbish and stop photocopying from gov office. =)

Thank you for the suggestion and reply. This is what we expect to get from students. Critical thinking and useful discussion about things around us. Great to know that you're one of it. Hope you have a nice day with your family. Good day.
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  #38 Old 28-04-2012 Default Re: Bersih 3.0 Rally

zulhelmi, you are right in the sense that rallies are not the 'brightest and most effective' way of transforming our country. yet our hand is forced, as the other more efficient means such as discourse are denied us. we find ourselves with no alternative. it is also a sweeping generalisation to assume that any and all students supporting bersih have been 'corrupted' by the opposition to pursue their political agendas, as many recommers are keen watchers of malaysian politics.

we are all to blame because we were indifferent and/or ignorant towards our nation's political situation, and thus have allowed it to degenerate to its present state. bersih is a means to an end, the end being a better brighter future for malaysia. yes, acceding to will not turn our country into a first class nation overnight(no one is claiming it will). but it is definitely a step in the right direction.

how do we take responsibility for our own future? we do that with clean, fair elections, which is a fundamental tenet of democracy. take that away and our elections become nothing more than mere charades. the people become less empowered, and more vulnerable to tyranny and repression. therefore it is the exact opposite of 'a waste of time'. it is critical that right-thinking malaysians participate.

your notion that 'it is [not] the government's fault' is an absolute. and even taken as such, it is far from the truth. how are the lower level employees able to get away with such conduct? it is because the people at the top are doing the exact same thing, albeit on a larger scale. the rot does not start from the bottom. there are good policies, no doubt. but there is an unacceptable number of bad policies too. for example, the fact that the government has the authority to detain people without trial at its discretion is laughable for a nation claiming to be the 'best democracy in the world'. you can argue that some were enacted with good intentions in mind, but 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'. but i seriously doubt our current leaders do anything with the public interest in mind. how do you explain the death of the independence of the judiciary under the mahathir administration? or the current lack of impartiality of the police? or the rampant corruption and misallocation of funds that are threatening to bankrupt our nation? or the blatant political cheating and lack of transparency throughout most government departments? is the government NOT to be blamed here?

sure bersih, is not partial towards either side. but it is a start on a long journey towards a more accountable, transparent and competent government. instead of wallowing in the blame we all must take, crying and complaining to kingdom come, some people are doing something about it by attending bersih.
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  #39 Old 28-04-2012 Default Re: Bersih 3.0 Rally

Alright then, fair enough. What you guys are all true, cant deny it. But this is my opinion on the alternative to the not-so-bright solution of rallying.

We dont we, all of us together, hand in hand, join the Government Transformation Program and lead it to a success? This is one thing that the gov genuinely trying to help the rakyat but like I said, people believe what they want to believe and they choose to believe this is an election candy. I still believe that change should be done to ourselves. I would rather see a "Jangan meludah" campaign poster at Pavilion KL, The Gardens etc rather seeing everyone marching, causing chaos and disturbance. Don't deny by saying this is a peaceful rally because the last march did turned very ugly and higher chance it will be the same for this one. The campaign might sound stupid but it is what Malaysians need, an attitude make over. Last time I checked with Egypt after their so-called revolution, they are still struggling.

I'm quoting myself on other forum:

Quote:
I am against the corruptions that are happening in the gov BUT I dont support this kind of event, especially when it involves showing everything to the world.

Dan kenapa still nak buat kat Dataran Merdeka walhal kerajaan bagi alternative venue lain? Memang purposely nak buat kacau ke? If that's the case, then no thank you very much. I would save my vote for the ones who really need it.

Bersih 2.0, yes it did open up our eyes (and mine too) on what is happening with the current gov. Bersih 3.0? I'm not too sure, but it definitely making me annoyed.
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  #40 Old 28-04-2012 Default Re: Bersih 3.0 Rally

Zulhelmi, over the past two decades the government has promised reforms and growth again and again. Yet, facts and figures have shown that their reformation plans, while grandiose on paper, failed to impress when it comes to implementation. We have stayed as middle income country for almost two decades with mediocre growth. Our labor force's average earning is at the world's lower quartile, even less than Botswana and Jamaica (BBC Global payscale comparison). This is a problem with the current ruling coalition, and has happened over and over again: they promise grand things like the ETP and electoral reforms, deceive the hopefuls like yourself, but their implementations lackluster. They wouldn't implement them well, why would they? Tell me, who is there to reprimand the current coalition if they do a bad job? No one!

Do you see now why it is so important to have a clean and fair election? Why a clean and fair election is the first step to transform the overpowered ruling party? It is the only avenue for the people, the rakyat, to pressure them: to make sure that they implement what they plan, to make sure that they set a standard up to expectation. Without a fair election, they can do whatever they want -control mainstream media, abuse the legal system, indulge in bribery, ignores weaknesses in the education system, disregard the low payscale and rising inflation -and still stay in power.

Bersih 3.0 is important, because the EC has not heeded to the people's demand for electoral reforms. On one hand it rolls out plans to agree with Bersih 2.0's conditions, on the other hand it tweaks the Election Offences Act at Dewan Rakyat clandestinely to render the reforms ineffective. Such lack of accountability demands to be reprimanded, and Bersih 3.0 rally becomes the best avenue for the unsatisfied to express their discontent.
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Last edited by Seiryu; 28-04-2012 at 04:22 PM.
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